WEBVTT - Did Israel just change its battle plan?

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<v Speaker 1>From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. To Unclair Harvey,

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<v Speaker 1>It's Tuesday, May twenty, twenty twenty five. Children as young

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<v Speaker 1>as six appear to be accessing pornography online. That's according

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<v Speaker 1>to school principles, who say the evidence shows up in

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<v Speaker 1>their schoolwork and in the notes they pass. And New

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<v Speaker 1>South Wales parliamentary inquiry is investigating the harmful effects of

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<v Speaker 1>pawn on mental, physical and emotional health. In Ukraine, Australia

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<v Speaker 1>is desperately trying to get school teacher Oscar Jenkins swapped

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<v Speaker 1>for Russian prisoners of war, the Australians reporting today. There's

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<v Speaker 1>also speculation Russia will want the alleged Russian born spies

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<v Speaker 1>Kira and Igor Korlev, who are in custody accused of

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<v Speaker 1>espionage here in Australia. The war in Gaza changing Israel's

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<v Speaker 1>tactics and maybe also its goals, with suggestions it might

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<v Speaker 1>settle for disarmament rather than the destruction of Hermas. Today

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<v Speaker 1>Chief International Correspondent Cameron Stewart on whether this nineteen month

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<v Speaker 1>old war could finally be inching towards some kind of resolution.

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<v Speaker 1>Ever since October seven, twenty twenty three, when Hermas massacred

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<v Speaker 1>and took hostage civilians, including children in Israel. Israel's Prime

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<v Speaker 1>Minister Benjamin Netanyah, who has been crystal clear about his

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<v Speaker 1>goals in.

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<v Speaker 2>The face of pure evil, free societies have no choice

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<v Speaker 2>but to fight.

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<v Speaker 1>As recently as March Nettanna who said Israel would never budge.

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<v Speaker 2>So I want to sure all our friends around the world,

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<v Speaker 2>Israel will fight, and Israel will win. We will bring

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<v Speaker 2>our people home and we will destroy Hamas.

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<v Speaker 1>We are nineteen months on and Hamas still exists, as

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<v Speaker 1>the government of Gaza and israelis are still awaiting the

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<v Speaker 1>return of more than fifty five hostages, including some dead bodies. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>as the United States, led by Special ENVOYE. Stephen Witkoff,

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<v Speaker 1>attempts to get the two sides to agree on something,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a new idea surfacing. What if Hamas were not

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<v Speaker 1>destroyed but just disarmed. What if its fighters were forced

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<v Speaker 1>to leave Gaza. Here's what Prime Minister Netanyah his office

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<v Speaker 1>is saying. We've used an Ai voice to read the

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<v Speaker 1>pam's officer's statement.

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<v Speaker 3>The negotiating team in Doha is working to exhaust every

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<v Speaker 3>possibility for a deal, whether according to the Whitkov outline,

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<v Speaker 3>or within the framework of ending the war, which would

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<v Speaker 3>include the release of all hostages, the exile of Kamas terrorists,

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<v Speaker 3>and the disarmament of the Gaza Strip.

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<v Speaker 1>And at the same time Israel is pursuing a new

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<v Speaker 1>type of war in Gaza itself.

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<v Speaker 4>Prime Minister Netan Yahoo had promised his military would ender

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<v Speaker 4>the strip with full force. It marks the largest ground

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<v Speaker 4>assault on northern Gaza. Since Israel resumed its offensive in March.

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<v Speaker 1>The Israeli military has been relentless in its attacks across

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<v Speaker 1>the Gaza Strip.

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<v Speaker 4>The IDEA says it struck what it called more than

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<v Speaker 4>one hundred and fifty terror targets throughout the Gaza Strip.

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<v Speaker 5>Israel had defeated Hamas effectively as o coherent military force,

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<v Speaker 5>but not as a terrorist force, not as a sort

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<v Speaker 5>of pop up force that could attack Israeli soldiers at

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<v Speaker 5>any one point two time.

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<v Speaker 1>Cameron Stewart is the Australian's chief international correspondent.

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<v Speaker 5>And so they were kind of playing whack a mole

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<v Speaker 5>where they just basically would defeat them in one part

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<v Speaker 5>of Gaza and not in the other. And this new

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<v Speaker 5>offensive from Netnia, who is designed to stop that. He's

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<v Speaker 5>going to send troops in to various parts of Gaz,

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<v Speaker 5>who is divided, according to leak documents, into about four zones,

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<v Speaker 5>and Israeli troops will go into certain zones and they

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<v Speaker 5>will stay there and stay and occupy those zones. So

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<v Speaker 5>it's a different type of conflict that Netnya who has

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<v Speaker 5>launched this time around.

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<v Speaker 1>Can There've been two conflicting ideas in Israel's response to

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<v Speaker 1>the October seven terrorist attack. One is the elimination of

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<v Speaker 1>Hamas and its command structure in Gaza, and the other

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<v Speaker 1>is the total destruction of Gaza itself, including the great

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<v Speaker 1>loss of civilian life. Those two things have so far

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<v Speaker 1>gone together. Now there's talk about an idea of demilitarizer

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<v Speaker 1>of Hamas and the exile of its militants. That would

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<v Speaker 1>require some sort of authority in Gaza certifying that that

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<v Speaker 1>has been done and handing over militants. What do you

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<v Speaker 1>think about the idea, firstly, that Hamas could disarm.

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<v Speaker 5>I think it's a fairly unrealistic idea that Israel has

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<v Speaker 5>her musk will disarm. I mean, I must has not

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<v Speaker 5>been defeated as a military force. Certainly they've been hugely degraded.

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<v Speaker 5>Let's not pretend that they're in any way a coherent force.

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<v Speaker 5>But what Israel wants to do is remove them entirely

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<v Speaker 5>as a militant force in Gaza. I don't see how

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<v Speaker 5>that's possible. I don't see how they go to exile,

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<v Speaker 5>because obviously if they left Garza, they'd be very traceable.

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<v Speaker 5>I wouldn't imagine those fights would want to do that.

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<v Speaker 5>I think the question here that Israel is probably grappling

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<v Speaker 5>with is that to actually get Harmas to disarm is very,

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<v Speaker 5>very difficult. They might have to accept a real politic

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<v Speaker 5>decision here at some point and say they want Hamas

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<v Speaker 5>out of power. In other words, they don't want Hamas

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<v Speaker 5>to administer the Gaza Strip anymore, but they would have

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<v Speaker 5>to accept Hamas would still exist to some degree in

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<v Speaker 5>Gaza as a minor military force. That's probably the sort

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<v Speaker 5>of middle ground that Israel may have to work towards,

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<v Speaker 5>because it doesn't seem realistic to expect that Hamas will

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<v Speaker 5>suddenly put down its weapons and leave the Gaza Strip.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't see that that's a feasible concept.

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<v Speaker 1>We've been here before, haven't we, cam where Israel has

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<v Speaker 1>attempted to deal with the international approbrium over Gaza by

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<v Speaker 1>withdrawing and hoping that that's the end of it. It's

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<v Speaker 1>never the end, is it. No, it's not.

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<v Speaker 5>In fact, Israel's now created buffer zones, which actually takes

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<v Speaker 5>a reasonable amount of the Gaza territory and calls it

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<v Speaker 5>a buffer zone where they try to obviously protect Israeli

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<v Speaker 5>citizens from Hamas militants. And so that looks like it

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<v Speaker 5>might be quite a permanent thing. I don't think Gaza

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<v Speaker 5>as we know it will be in exactly the same

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<v Speaker 5>at all at the end of this conflict. I think

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<v Speaker 5>it'll be a smaller enclave. And it's really hard to

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<v Speaker 5>imagine that Israeli military forces will not have the major

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<v Speaker 5>say in Gaza in the foreseeable future, even under a

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<v Speaker 5>peace plan.

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<v Speaker 1>We're looking at Gaza and we've got to get that

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<v Speaker 1>taken care of.

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<v Speaker 5>A lot of people are starving, a lot of people

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<v Speaker 5>are there's a lot of bad things going on.

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<v Speaker 1>What's the Trump factor? Do you think he can We

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<v Speaker 1>saw the release of a hostage last week air Dan Alexander,

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<v Speaker 1>and it didn't turn into the kind of horror show

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<v Speaker 1>propaganda moment that Hamas had created with the release of

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<v Speaker 1>the other hostages, there was not a public handover in

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<v Speaker 1>a square where the hostage was paraded. Has Donald Trump

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<v Speaker 1>got something to do with that?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 5>I think the Trump factor is incredibly important at the

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<v Speaker 5>moment and very very unknown. I think netnyar Who's trying

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<v Speaker 5>to second guest Donald Trump, he doesn't really know how

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<v Speaker 5>much support Trump has for what netnar Who is actually doing,

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<v Speaker 5>especially this new campaign of sending troops into Gaza to

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<v Speaker 5>stay there indefinitely. Trump has certainly distanced himself somewhat from

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<v Speaker 5>netna Who in the last two weeks. Of course, he

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<v Speaker 5>went to the Middle East and pointedly did not visit Israel.

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<v Speaker 5>The US has been talking directly to Hamas and that's

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<v Speaker 5>what led to the release of the last US hostage

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<v Speaker 5>last week, and they did things like they unilaterally stopped

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<v Speaker 5>the bombing of the who is in Yemen again without

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<v Speaker 5>consulting Israel. So Israel is really scratching their heads and

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<v Speaker 5>working out how much Trump is with them, even though

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<v Speaker 5>rhetorically Trump has been very strong as far as Israel's

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<v Speaker 5>attack on Harmas has gone, but we really haven't heard

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<v Speaker 5>from Trump about whether or not he supports this latest

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<v Speaker 5>move by Netna to actually send a big ground force

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<v Speaker 5>into Gaza. It's been a bit of a deafening silence.

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<v Speaker 5>So that is a huge question hanging over this whole operation.

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<v Speaker 5>The only person in the world I think who can

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<v Speaker 5>really influence Netaho is Trump.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up. There are growing fears of famine in Gaza.

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<v Speaker 1>How does that change the calculus for Israel. There's a

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<v Speaker 1>proposal now that Israel would lift the food or humanitarian

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<v Speaker 1>ban and allowed food trucks into Gaza in return for

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<v Speaker 1>the release of nine hostages by Hamas. How much has

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<v Speaker 1>Israel do you think been affected by international concern over

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<v Speaker 1>the prospect of a famine in Gaza.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, they only seem to have reacted to it very

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<v Speaker 5>recently in the last forty eight hours. Of course, this

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<v Speaker 5>embargo on eight ins of Gaza has been going on

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<v Speaker 5>for a long time now, and so I think Israel

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<v Speaker 5>has certainly under Netnya who's been very reluctant to be

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<v Speaker 5>influenced by international opinion in this respect. But it looks

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<v Speaker 5>like they have been at this point in time. But

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<v Speaker 5>that's because there have really been some quite acute reports

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<v Speaker 5>coming out of mass famine in Gaza. Very hard for

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<v Speaker 5>israel I think to justify that in an ongoing sense,

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<v Speaker 5>and there may, of course well have been pressure on

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<v Speaker 5>Israel from the US to try and do something here,

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<v Speaker 5>because Trump in fact pointedly said, very bad things are

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<v Speaker 5>happening in Gaza. Terrible things are happening there. We're going

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<v Speaker 5>to have to do something about it. Now, that's unusual

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<v Speaker 5>for Trump to say that, so I suspect the US

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<v Speaker 5>has been behind the scenes pressuring it in Yahoo to

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<v Speaker 5>do something to end this.

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<v Speaker 1>In fury, Israel has moved a big step closer to

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<v Speaker 1>its goal of eliminating Hamasa's leadership. Mohammed Sinwa, one of

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<v Speaker 1>Israel's most wanted figures, was reportedly killed inside one of

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<v Speaker 1>her Massa's tunnels inside Gaza. Israel believed he was one

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<v Speaker 1>of the masterminds of the October seven attacks, and it

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<v Speaker 1>says he was hiding in a tunnel under the European

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<v Speaker 1>Hospital in han Uness.

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<v Speaker 6>The Israeli military said it struck an underground command center

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<v Speaker 6>beneath the hospital. One hospital official tallt CNN it was

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<v Speaker 6>a quote catastrophe with people buried under the rubble.

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<v Speaker 5>Look, it's definitely a big blow. Mohammed Simoi is of

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<v Speaker 5>course the brother of the former leader Semowa, who was

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<v Speaker 5>assassinated in October last year, and so those two brothers

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<v Speaker 5>are very important in Hamas's leadership structure. Also, Mohammed Simwa's psidekick,

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<v Speaker 5>who was going to replace him, was actually also killed

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<v Speaker 5>in that blast. So look, Hamas have lost all of

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<v Speaker 5>their top leaders. They really have. They've been decapitated. But

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<v Speaker 5>the trouble for the West here is that Hamas does rejuvenate.

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<v Speaker 5>They've got a very dispersed leadership structure. There's always new

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<v Speaker 5>recruits coming on. I think that by decapitating their leadership

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<v Speaker 5>it makes it very difficult for Hamas, but it certainly

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<v Speaker 5>doesn't destroy them as a coherent force.

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<v Speaker 1>In this conflict. Can you see a path to victory

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<v Speaker 1>for Israel now that it has so significantly degraded, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>Hesbellah and Iran's ability to support organizations like Hamas.

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<v Speaker 5>Israel has won a huge strategic victory out of the

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<v Speaker 5>tragedy of the October seventh in the sense that they

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<v Speaker 5>have really crushed Hesbelah in Lebanon. They've really bought Iran

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<v Speaker 5>to its knees as far as a country that's able

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<v Speaker 5>to threaten Israel and of course Hamas has been largely

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<v Speaker 5>crippled in Gaza, but the real problem here for Israel

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<v Speaker 5>is just how to finish off the conflict in Gaza.

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<v Speaker 5>To try and get Hamas to give up power in

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<v Speaker 5>Gaza has been such a challenge. There are limits to

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<v Speaker 5>how far Israel can continue to pume all Gaza, given

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<v Speaker 5>the horrific, truly horrific civilian casualties that are occurring and

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<v Speaker 5>the fact that Hamas just keeps surviving. So the problem

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<v Speaker 5>for Israel really is the endgame. They just can't work

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<v Speaker 5>out exactly how to finish this conflict, even though ironically,

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<v Speaker 5>as far as militarily go, they've actually won it.

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<v Speaker 1>Cameron Stewart is the Australian's chief international correspondent. That story

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<v Speaker 1>is developing quickly and you can read the latest twenty

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<v Speaker 1>four to seven at the Australian dot com dot au