WEBVTT - Episode 13: Father's Day 0:00:01.160 --> 0:00:04.560 Hi, Bromwyn listeners, and welcome to season two. It's Claire 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:08.360 Harvey from The Australian. Just like season one, episodes in 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:11.880 miss season two will be available to our subscribers first 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:16.280 over at bromwinpodcast dot com. Our subscribers heard this episode 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:20.000 in early October. This kind of journalism where we try 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.599 to solve cold cases, just can't be done without the 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.240 support of our subscribers, so we reward them with early 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:31.040 access to our episodes and all our stories, pictures, videos, 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:35.920 maps and graphics. If you're listening later via Apple, Spotify 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:39.360 or another podcast player and you're wondering where episodes eleven 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:43.600 and twelve are, there're subscriber exclusives which are available to 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:48.200 listen now at bromwinpodcast dot com. In those exclusive episodes 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:51.720 eleven and twelve, there's more than two hours of new audio, 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:57.000 new information, and case revelations. This weekend, we're releasing episode 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:01.240 fifteen to our subscribers. Subscribing is the most powerful way 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:04.720 you can support Headley and our journalism. It's a dollar 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.039 a week for the first four weeks and you can 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:12.800 cancel anytime. Check us out at bromwan podcast dot com. 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:17.480 Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwan contains course 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:21.640 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:55.320 you by me Headley Thomas and the Australian Father's Day 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:59.440 in Australia fell on September one, a fortnight after our 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.560 return for Manuel leave at home in Brisbane. I pictured 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:07.040 John Winfield in his ocean facing house which looks a 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:11.640 little like a fortress near Lennox Head. Everything inside the 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:16.000 property must have been spotlessly clean and in its proper place. 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.680 After months of scrutiny and public intrigue arising from the 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:24.320 first season of the Bromin podcast series, John might have 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.880 been fondly acknowledged that Father's Day by his two daughters 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:32.640 living nearby, Jody, the eldest, whose mother is John's first 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.480 wife Jenny, and Lauren, the youngest, whose mother Bromin was 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:42.080 John's third wife. Cristel, Broman's first daughter, lives some seven 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.800 hundred kilometers south in Sydney, and although she does not 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:50.720 share John's DNA, Cristel had started calling John dad when 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:56.119 she was five. Her biological father, Mark Davis, died when 0:02:56.160 --> 0:03:00.680 Cristel was in her twenties. Over the past three decades, 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.760 Crystal's views about the fate of her mother and the 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:09.760 alleged role of John have changed many times. In episode twelve, 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:12.800 which dealt with the recent defrauding of Crystal by a 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:15.840 self proclaimed sole doctor, Crystal. 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:19.600 Wrote, both Mom and I were very trusting people, and 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.680 as a result, I was recently scammed my entire life 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:28.160 savings by strangers. It wouldn't surprise me if she trusted 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.240 the wrong person, someone she'd just met, and they were 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:35.760 responsible for her disappearance. I also have other theories, but 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.840 this seems likely to me as I know she never 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:42.680 would have left us for long. Imagine growing up with 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:46.320 some people around you thinking your dad murdered your mom. 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.480 I never wanted our next generation to go through what 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:54.280 my sisters and I experienced, ostracized and at times ridiculed 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:59.120 for being the daughter of JW. If anyone knows JW best, 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.520 it's us people that actually lived with him and Mum 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:07.320 behind closed doors. This has destroyed our lives at times, 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:09.600 and honestly, at the end of the day, there is 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.560 no body. It's all circumstantial evidence. 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:14.080 I feel this. 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.599 Podcast has only explored one possibility when there are other 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:22.840 possibilities to her disappearance. Our mum would never want this 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.360 kind of pain and heartache on her daughters and grandchildren. 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:30.000 She'd be devastated, as I know, she would just want 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:32.479 a happy life for us, just like we want for 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:36.200 our children. Thank you to those that have been there 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:39.120 for us throughout these years. It's hard enough growing up 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.680 without a mum, but having so much gossip about it 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:46.520 made it so much harder for us, and that's coming 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:51.400 from the daughter of a nurturing mum aka Brodwin Winfield. 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.479 Currently, Crystal is not on board with the new South 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:02.039 Wales Police position that John murdered Bronwin. This episode was 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.440 going to revolve around John's side of the story, the 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.640 version that he gave in the one and only recorded 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.640 interview he did with a detective that was in nineteen 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.160 ninety eight. I have the lengthy record of it and 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:19.520 for weeks I've been pouring over the detail and comparing 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:23.200 it with known facts as well as highly probable scenarios. 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:28.800 That exercise has been very worthwhile. It has yielded promising 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:29.599 new angles. 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:33.760 Hi Headley, here's the documents sent to us in two 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:34.360 thousand and. 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:38.520 Nine on Father's Day. While working out what to do 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.240 with some of the new and yet to be revealed 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.640 evidence in this case and where it should sit. In 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:49.279 season two of Bromman, I opened an email and his 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.159 wife Michelle Lead had taken some time between episodes to 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.400 do a thorough search of her files and email inbox, 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.279 just in case she had missed something of relevance. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.720 Stumbled on them today going through my email archives. I 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:07.560 honestly don't remember ever seeing them, Michelle. 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:12.440 The largest file is titled Chronology. It is a Microsoft 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.800 word document and the metadata shows that it was first 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:20.400 printed in November two thousand and eight. It originated in 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:24.920 the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Unit and one 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.279 of its authors must have been the highly respected senior 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:33.520 Detective George Radmore. George Radmore and other police from the 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:37.719 Unsolved Homicide Unit dedicated many hundreds of hours to the 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:42.320 case a decade after the Baalinot Detective Glenn Taylor's investigation. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.840 Here is Bromwin's cousin, Meghan Reid, recalling some of her 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:51.720 contact back then with the now retired George Radmore. Meghan 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.880 spoke as Maddie Walsh went through folders of the evidence 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.840 with me at Meghan's home on Sydney's Northern Beaches. Months 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:00.920 before the podcast they started. 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:06.400 Here we have witness statements from nineteen ninety eight. 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.120 Yours isn't in nut war and yours are the plastic value. 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.920 I'd layne in two and nine twenty ten with George. 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:16.840 Add Moore, who I had a great relationship with. This 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:18.600 was the one case really upsetting. 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:20.080 It wasn't sold. 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:22.600 I'll think a lot of those emails are between Meagan 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:23.560 and George Radmore. 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:25.600 That's from George. 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:29.360 Thank you for your efforts last week. I know it 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:34.000 was draining, but it is necessary to get the full picture. Already, 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:38.040 you have provided evidence that I previously did not know existed, 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:42.600 and it is very important to the investigation. It makes 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:46.080 it all the more difficult and time consuming to try 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.600 to remember things from sixteen years ago, which is why 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:54.560 the documentation that I have requested is so important. It 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:57.840 would certainly have been easier if your statement had been 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:03.240 taken in more detail during the original investigation. However, we 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:04.560 cannot change that now. 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:09.760 George Radmore had successfully put away quite a few people 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.800 without bodies, and that's why they assigned him to it. 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:16.760 He's brilliant, He really is brilliant, and he was so disappointed. 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:22.360 Michelle Reid told me that the forty three page word 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:26.960 document titled Chronology was provided to her and Andy by 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:31.560 George Radmore. Perhaps the detective wanted Michelle and Andy to 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:35.560 fact check some of the details. The secondary heading on 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:37.360 the document states. 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:41.280 Strikeforce Chelmsbrook Murder of Bronwyn Winfield. 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:47.080 There are several hundred separate entries spanning almost forty years. 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:52.000 Everything that the police regarded as potentially relevant to their 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:56.520 investigation is in the Chronology document. The entries are in 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:02.680 columns under these headings day and time, then occurrence or event, 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:09.480 then reference document, and then matters arising. The first entry 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.000 is dated nineteen sixty nine. 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:17.720 Jonathan Winfield and Sybil Green meet while students at high school. 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:24.280 Nineteen seventy Jonathan and Sybyl commence sexual relationship while Sybil 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:30.079 fourteen years old. Nineteen seventy two, Sybil falls pregnant to 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:35.640 Jonathan while still fifteen years old. Parents decide they should marry. 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:41.280 Winfields suddenly ban Sybil from seeing Jonathan in March or 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:47.800 April nineteen seventy two. November nineteen seventy two, Sybil gives 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:55.280 birth to Sonya early nineteen seventy three. Jonathan denies paternity. 0:09:55.760 --> 0:10:00.000 Before going further, some important points need to be clarified. 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:05.320 Sybil Green is a pseudonym. We are not identifying the 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.800 woman who was just fifteen when she conceived a child 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:13.600 during a relationship with John. John is older than the 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.440 woman we are calling Sybil by a couple of years. 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:21.120 When I opened the email from Michelle read and read 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:24.439 the names in the chronology document, I checked the records 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:28.960 of the Australians Bronman Facebook discussion group as an administrator 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:33.240 to see if Sonya and her mother had joined. I 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:37.520 didn't approach Sonya or her mother, but soon after Michelle's 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:42.280 fortuitous discovery of the chronology document, Sonya approached us. 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:47.040 I got a message, am I a message request from 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:48.280 a lady called Sonya. 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:53.160 And that's why this episode is fundamentally different now to 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.960 the one that I had planned. Instead of revolving around 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:01.560 John's claims and John's shifting version in his nineteen ninety 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.319 eight police interview of who, What, When, where and why 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:09.800 at the time of Bromwin's disappearance, this first episode of 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.640 season two is the story of a woman fathered by John, 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.040 a woman who wants nothing to do with her father 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.320 apart from her objective to help Bromwin and her family 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:26.679 get justice. I'm talking here to Maddie Walsh a fortnight 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:29.560 after Father's Day as she sat in her car in 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:33.440 Sydney and I hunched over my laptop at home in Brisbane. 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.120 And there's some video at Bromwin podcast dot com. 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.640 All right, yeah, that's fine. 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:41.720 Saturday morning. 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:43.680 Saturday morning. 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.440 Tell me about this Facebook message. 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.880 Well, I actually got it at five pm yesterday, but 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:59.280 I didn't process it until today. And it says hello 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:04.960 Andy and read JW. Does Jodie realize she is not 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:10.080 his firstborn child. I'm asking you this as if she does, great, 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:12.920 But if not, then I'm thinking that could throw a 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.360 spanner in the works of her bond with her father. 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.480 Perhaps the words needed for her and Lauren to question 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:22.600 his truths pre nineteen seventy two. I don't really have 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.120 any info in him, except that the look in his 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:28.040 eye and the way he treated women as a seventeen 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:31.400 year old was not well received by a certain fifteen 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:35.640 year old girl's mother, my grandmother. On her deathbed, I 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:37.920 made a promise that I would reach out when the 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:41.320 time was right. As a fifty one year old. I'm 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.160 not sure when that time is, but now kind of 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.640 feels right. I've been tossing up all week as to 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:49.720 who to contact, as strangely enough, Crystal is the only 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.280 one I feel any type of connection with, but I 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:54.240 don't think she is in the right frame of mind. 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:58.559 My kindest regards to you, Andy, You're an amazing brother, and. 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:00.520 Maddie, you are rock sol girl. 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.760 Your parents must be over the moon beaming proud. 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.520 I know who this woman is, and I'm so glad 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:10.360 that she's made contact. 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.319 I didn't realize who she was until I spoke to 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:13.959 you about it. 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:16.640 Well, when you called me a short time ago and 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:18.760 you said, hey, I got this message from a woman 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.880 called Sonya, I immediately knew what you were going to 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:22.160 tell me. 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.960 Yeah, which is crazy that she reached out. 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:32.920 She is the daughter of a woman who was fifteen 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:39.360 when she became pregnant in nineteen seventy two. And my 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:45.640 understanding is that the parents of John and Sonya's mother 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.080 agreed or decided that they should marry. 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:54.320 So was that after his daughter was born. 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:58.000 That must have been before she was born. He was 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:03.120 older than her. From the documents I've seen, Maddie, Sonya 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:10.520 was born in November nineteen seventy two. The relationship had 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:15.040 just fallen apart, and they'd gone from being prepared to 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:21.320 marry to estrangement. And this poor young girl is having 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:26.600 John's baby. So when you got that message from Sonya, 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:29.520 what were you thinking? 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:35.960 I was still stuck trying to figure out how she 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.120 knew this and how she was related. 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:44.440 And she does describe a little cryptically in that key sentence, 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:45.920 doesn't she It. 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.320 Wasn't as though she said I am John's first daughter. 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:56.080 She's asking whether Jody knows that Sonya is actually John's 0:14:56.120 --> 0:15:00.360 first child? But why is that important to Sonya? 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:00.640 Too? 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.120 Kind of breakdown that layer of trust that John and 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.800 Jody have shown that they have with each other, that 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.200 maybe Jody will take a step back and reevaluate what 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.360 her father has told her and all the truths he 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:18.920 has supposedly told her, and maybe rethink that not everything 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:19.800 is the truth. 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:25.200 That does sound like it's part of her motivation. 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.800 And I don't know many people who know about this. 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.080 Yeah, it's been a very well kept secret. I don't 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.560 think she's had any contact at all with her father. 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:39.840 I get that impression because she says pre nineteen seventy two, 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.320 I don't really have any info on him, which means 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:46.360 since she was born, she hasn't ever known him. Quite possibly, 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.720 her mother told her who her father was, but she 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:54.000 never had a relationship with him. And since this podcast 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:59.600 has come out, she's heard about him and she's felt 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:01.400 that she should reach. 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:05.400 Out this deathbed point. What do you take from that. 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:10.400 Well, it's almost as though her grandmother, Sonya's grandmother knew 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:14.240 that John wasn't a good person. Her grandmother had this 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.720 inkling that something wasn't quite right with him, and the 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.600 fact that she felt the need to tell Sonya on 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.640 her deathbed. We don't know much about John previous to 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:30.600 his first two wives. This is the earliest recollection of 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.440 any kind of relationship. It seems as though his behavior 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:34.960 wasn't good. 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:40.119 Then he's taken no responsibility for the care and upbringing 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:41.520 of his first child. 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.920 He doesn't seem like Sonya wants to know her father. 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.560 It's almost as though she wants Jodie to know the 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:52.360 truth about her father and Lauren to know that their 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:56.600 father isn't as great as he may seem. If she 0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:00.920 really doesn't know, and she doesn't know this information, it 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.760 might cause her to take a little step back and 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:06.880 kind of really think about it. 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:11.880 Sonya's mother would have been John's first wife if things 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:13.360 had turned out differently. 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.879 If everything else played out, four wives or by the 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:22.160 time he was thirty Now, honestly, to me, that's weird behavior. 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:27.440 Who knows about this and just hasn't mentioned it. If 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:31.879 Lauren's aware, if Jodie's aware, I don't know. Would he 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.240 have confided that in them when they got older. 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.840 It also seems from the tone of that message that 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.840 she's formed a view of John, which is the same 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:46.800 view that the police and others have formed of John 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.040 as being responsible for Bromwin's disappearance. 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.280 It's just stuff coming out of the wouldwork like this 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:57.479 that changes a lot in terms of someone's character and 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:00.480 skeletons in the closet could. 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:04.280 Say, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:09.199 someone who's to become involved in a physical relationship with 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:14.640 a girl. She's far too young, But he's also very 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:18.320 young too. He's not a man in his thirties. His 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:21.960 brain is still developing at that age. However, on the 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:26.879 character point, the failure to be prepared to try to 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:34.720 support her contribute to her upbringing and education and her needs. 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:41.600 This does add into John's behaviors and patterns as well 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.960 of John's parents and his mother, and the constant need 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:50.439 to push the women away if they step on the 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:54.159 wrong toes or something happens. We know he tried to 0:18:54.200 --> 0:19:00.440 pay off Jenny with Jodie for John to have City. 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.840 Maddie is referring to evidence given to the police by 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.080 John's first wife, Jennifer in the lead up to the 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.600 two thousand and two inquest. You heard some of it 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:12.920 in episode ten. 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:18.040 I remember John's mother saying something like no woman walks 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:21.679 out on my son. I recall John's parents turned up 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:23.359 one day with John and they. 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.240 Picked up Jody and walked out the door. 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.600 Grandma Winfield said, when you get your act together, you 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.760 can have a back. I blame myself now, but at 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.959 the time I didn't understand the laws properly, and I 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.600 was depressed and having problems with my life. And after 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:43.040 this John and myself initiated divorce proceedings. John offered me 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.040 twenty thousand dollars so he could keep custody of Jody. 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.040 I told him to stick his twenty thousand dollars and 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.440 take good care of Jody, and that's how John ended 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.439 up having custody of her. The way I was at 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.000 the time, I was mentally depressed and I'd become suicidal. 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:00.800 John wouldn't allow me to visit already at school, and 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:03.760 they constantly pushed me away from her. I used to 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.600 sit outside the school watching Jody play at lunchtime in 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:07.480 the school grounds. 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:13.400 There's this controlling nature that kind of threads through the family, 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.560 trying to gain control of the situation and pushing people 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:18.840 away when it doesn't. 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.120 Go the way they want. 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:23.879 It would have been John's parents at that stage making 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.200 the decisions for John, I would assume, especially his mother, 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:30.800 given how much we know he adored her and how 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:34.879 much of a part she had in his life. I 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.199 do definitely think it would have been more of his 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:41.320 mother's decision to get Sonya and her mother out of 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.080 his life. Why are the women not being kept around? 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.600 Is it based on they're not perfect enough for John? 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:49.560 Or no, they're not perfect enough for John's mother. 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:55.760 Shortly before her disappearance, Bromwin wrote about John, his and 0:20:55.920 --> 0:21:01.800 her unhappiness, perfectionism, and John's mother. Here it is in 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:02.879 the first episode. 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:06.959 I drifted away from John as he became more and 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.840 more depressed about the house being less than immaculate and 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.119 the death of his mother, the only woman he thought 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:18.159 was perfect. Eventually I switched off and became cold inside. 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.960 He had a heart of ice and always criticized me 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:24.640 no matter what I did. The man was cold and 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:28.400 heartless and gave nothing but expected everything. 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:34.080 Have you replied to Sonya, No, not yet. What do 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:35.879 you intend to say? 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:38.680 Well, I was going to thank her for reaching out. 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.359 I'm not sure it could have been easy. This is 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:46.639 her father. She's never had a relationship with him, and 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.879 I'm pretty sure she knows she never will. But she 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:52.920 also has sisters out there, half sisters. 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:57.080 I feel like she wants to help. 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:01.760 She feels as though this is the starting of his lies. 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:04.919 I mean it's time. She said she was waiting for 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:08.240 the right time. Then I really think that time is now, 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:10.640 I guess before it's too late. 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:15.159 Feeling like she has a connection with Crystal and admiring 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:19.960 from Afar, you and Andy as she's listening to everything. 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:24.280 At the same time, it seems she suspects that her 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:30.119 biological dad killed a beautiful woman called Bromin. 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:33.160 Maybe she has that thought in the back of her 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:34.240 mind that he. 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:35.160 Could have been her mother. 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:41.439 With Jenny's statement as well, and how John was violent 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.000 with her. 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:46.159 He'd yell at me and he made him scared of him. 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:48.760 He said to me, I'll kill you if you say 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:51.200 that again. And at the time he had his hands 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:54.800 around my throat and was squeezing. I remember I managed 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:58.480 to say go ahead. Into my surprise, he kept squeezing 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:01.359 me around the throat. I managed to kick him in 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:03.440 the groin and I got away from him and hitting 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:04.680 the outside laundry. 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:09.760 After hearing the podcast, maybe she counts herself lucky that 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:11.960 she didn't grow up with her father like John. 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:15.320 Does she say anywhere in her note to you that 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:19.760 it's confidentially No, she didn't. Can you just mention to 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:23.280 her that you've shared it with me and we've talked 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:25.680 about it, and that we would really like to chat 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:28.919 to her. Yeah, we're happy to chat to her on 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:31.720 background or off the record at first, if she wants 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:32.600 to get comfortable. 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:34.879 Yeah, definitely, for sure. 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:41.040 I just think it's honestly insane. The developments that have 0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:46.119 happened with in this case are crazy. We need to 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:49.680 dive right back into John's childhood. It might be hard 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:51.560 to get there, but I think that will answer a 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:54.479 lot his relationship with his parents when he was younger, 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.240 what he went through in school, everything that was really 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:04.080 going on during John's childhood and upbringing, and the family dynamic. Ultimately, 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:07.480 I really think it would answer a lot of questions 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:10.520 as to his character and why he is the way 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:14.480 he is, and why he keeps such picked secrets like 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:18.959 this to keep it so tightly under wraps. Even John's 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:21.960 parents not to have a relationship with their granddaughter, their 0:24:21.960 --> 0:24:26.159 first granddaughter, is also a little bit unbathomable because she 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:27.760 was just an innocent baby. 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:56.080 Recording stopped, Maddie wrote back to Sonya, and then I 0:24:56.160 --> 0:24:59.480 phoned her. We worked out that at the exact time 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:02.640 she was assigning to reach out to Andy and Maddie, 0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:06.960 the police chronology document naming her as John's daughter was 0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:11.520 being recovered by Michelle and sent to me. Sonya sounded 0:25:11.600 --> 0:25:16.879 completely unemotional, unaffected. During our twenty minutes on the phone. 0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:20.320 She matter of factly told me that her biological father 0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:24.680 was a bad liar. His lying had shattered Sonya's mother 0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:28.040 when John publicly denied being the father of the baby 0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:32.639 growing inside the girl. The cruel result was the false 0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:36.399 claim that a fifteen year old dealing with unplanned pregnancy 0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:40.240 and whose first and only love back then had been John, 0:25:40.600 --> 0:25:44.639 had slept around with different guys. Nothing could be further 0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:49.680 from the truth. Part of Sonya's point is that significant 0:25:49.720 --> 0:25:54.560 lies define a person's character. Exposing these lies might help 0:25:54.640 --> 0:25:58.960 resolve Bromwin's case. It might prompt people aware of other 0:25:59.080 --> 0:26:03.040 lies relevant to Broman's disappearance to come forward, and it 0:26:03.160 --> 0:26:07.159 possibly explains why detectives on Bromin's case went to the 0:26:07.200 --> 0:26:12.000 trouble of investigating John's conduct from the nineteen seventies. They 0:26:12.040 --> 0:26:16.679 took a statement from the mother of Sonya. We agreed 0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:19.800