1
00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,560
Speaker 1: Hi, Bromwyn listeners, and welcome to season two. It's Claire

2
00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,360
Speaker 1: Harvey from The Australian. Just like season one, episodes in

3
00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,880
Speaker 1: miss season two will be available to our subscribers first

4
00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,280
Speaker 1: over at bromwinpodcast dot com. Our subscribers heard this episode

5
00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,000
Speaker 1: in early October. This kind of journalism where we try

6
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,599
Speaker 1: to solve cold cases, just can't be done without the

7
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,240
Speaker 1: support of our subscribers, so we reward them with early

8
00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,040
Speaker 1: access to our episodes and all our stories, pictures, videos,

9
00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,920
Speaker 1: maps and graphics. If you're listening later via Apple, Spotify

10
00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,360
Speaker 1: or another podcast player and you're wondering where episodes eleven

11
00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,600
Speaker 1: and twelve are, there're subscriber exclusives which are available to

12
00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,200
Speaker 1: listen now at bromwinpodcast dot com. In those exclusive episodes

13
00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,720
Speaker 1: eleven and twelve, there's more than two hours of new audio,

14
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:57,000
Speaker 1: new information, and case revelations. This weekend, we're releasing episode

15
00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:01,240
Speaker 1: fifteen to our subscribers. Subscribing is the most powerful way

16
00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,720
Speaker 1: you can support Headley and our journalism. It's a dollar

17
00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,039
Speaker 1: a week for the first four weeks and you can

18
00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:12,800
Speaker 1: cancel anytime. Check us out at bromwan podcast dot com.

19
00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,480
Speaker 2: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwan contains course

20
00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,640
Speaker 2: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

21
00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:55,320
Speaker 2: you by me Headley Thomas and the Australian Father's Day

22
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,440
Speaker 2: in Australia fell on September one, a fortnight after our

23
00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,560
Speaker 2: return for Manuel leave at home in Brisbane. I pictured

24
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,040
Speaker 2: John Winfield in his ocean facing house which looks a

25
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,640
Speaker 2: little like a fortress near Lennox Head. Everything inside the

26
00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:16,000
Speaker 2: property must have been spotlessly clean and in its proper place.

27
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 2: After months of scrutiny and public intrigue arising from the

28
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,320
Speaker 2: first season of the Bromin podcast series, John might have

29
00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,880
Speaker 2: been fondly acknowledged that Father's Day by his two daughters

30
00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:32,640
Speaker 2: living nearby, Jody, the eldest, whose mother is John's first

31
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,480
Speaker 2: wife Jenny, and Lauren, the youngest, whose mother Bromin was

32
00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:42,080
Speaker 2: John's third wife. Cristel, Broman's first daughter, lives some seven

33
00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,800
Speaker 2: hundred kilometers south in Sydney, and although she does not

34
00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,720
Speaker 2: share John's DNA, Cristel had started calling John dad when

35
00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:56,119
Speaker 2: she was five. Her biological father, Mark Davis, died when

36
00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,680
Speaker 2: Cristel was in her twenties. Over the past three decades,

37
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,760
Speaker 2: Crystal's views about the fate of her mother and the

38
00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:09,760
Speaker 2: alleged role of John have changed many times. In episode twelve,

39
00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,800
Speaker 2: which dealt with the recent defrauding of Crystal by a

40
00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,840
Speaker 2: self proclaimed sole doctor, Crystal.

41
00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,600
Speaker 3: Wrote, both Mom and I were very trusting people, and

42
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,680
Speaker 3: as a result, I was recently scammed my entire life

43
00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:28,160
Speaker 3: savings by strangers. It wouldn't surprise me if she trusted

44
00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,240
Speaker 3: the wrong person, someone she'd just met, and they were

45
00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,760
Speaker 3: responsible for her disappearance. I also have other theories, but

46
00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,840
Speaker 3: this seems likely to me as I know she never

47
00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,680
Speaker 3: would have left us for long. Imagine growing up with

48
00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,320
Speaker 3: some people around you thinking your dad murdered your mom.

49
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,480
Speaker 3: I never wanted our next generation to go through what

50
00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:54,280
Speaker 3: my sisters and I experienced, ostracized and at times ridiculed

51
00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:59,120
Speaker 3: for being the daughter of JW. If anyone knows JW best,

52
00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,520
Speaker 3: it's us people that actually lived with him and Mum

53
00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:07,320
Speaker 3: behind closed doors. This has destroyed our lives at times,

54
00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,600
Speaker 3: and honestly, at the end of the day, there is

55
00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,560
Speaker 3: no body. It's all circumstantial evidence.

56
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:14,080
Speaker 4: I feel this.

57
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,599
Speaker 3: Podcast has only explored one possibility when there are other

58
00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:22,840
Speaker 3: possibilities to her disappearance. Our mum would never want this

59
00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,360
Speaker 3: kind of pain and heartache on her daughters and grandchildren.

60
00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,000
Speaker 3: She'd be devastated, as I know, she would just want

61
00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,479
Speaker 3: a happy life for us, just like we want for

62
00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 3: our children. Thank you to those that have been there

63
00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,120
Speaker 3: for us throughout these years. It's hard enough growing up

64
00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,680
Speaker 3: without a mum, but having so much gossip about it

65
00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,520
Speaker 3: made it so much harder for us, and that's coming

66
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,400
Speaker 3: from the daughter of a nurturing mum aka Brodwin Winfield.

67
00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,479
Speaker 2: Currently, Crystal is not on board with the new South

68
00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:02,039
Speaker 2: Wales Police position that John murdered Bronwin. This episode was

69
00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,440
Speaker 2: going to revolve around John's side of the story, the

70
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,640
Speaker 2: version that he gave in the one and only recorded

71
00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,640
Speaker 2: interview he did with a detective that was in nineteen

72
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,160
Speaker 2: ninety eight. I have the lengthy record of it and

73
00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,520
Speaker 2: for weeks I've been pouring over the detail and comparing

74
00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,200
Speaker 2: it with known facts as well as highly probable scenarios.

75
00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,800
Speaker 2: That exercise has been very worthwhile. It has yielded promising

76
00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:29,599
Speaker 2: new angles.

77
00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,760
Speaker 5: Hi Headley, here's the documents sent to us in two

78
00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:34,360
Speaker 5: thousand and.

79
00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,520
Speaker 2: Nine on Father's Day. While working out what to do

80
00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,240
Speaker 2: with some of the new and yet to be revealed

81
00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,640
Speaker 2: evidence in this case and where it should sit. In

82
00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:49,279
Speaker 2: season two of Bromman, I opened an email and his

83
00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,159
Speaker 2: wife Michelle Lead had taken some time between episodes to

84
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,400
Speaker 2: do a thorough search of her files and email inbox,

85
00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,279
Speaker 2: just in case she had missed something of relevance.

86
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,720
Speaker 5: Stumbled on them today going through my email archives. I

87
00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,560
Speaker 5: honestly don't remember ever seeing them, Michelle.

88
00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:12,440
Speaker 2: The largest file is titled Chronology. It is a Microsoft

89
00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,800
Speaker 2: word document and the metadata shows that it was first

90
00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,400
Speaker 2: printed in November two thousand and eight. It originated in

91
00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,920
Speaker 2: the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Unit and one

92
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,279
Speaker 2: of its authors must have been the highly respected senior

93
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:33,520
Speaker 2: Detective George Radmore. George Radmore and other police from the

94
00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,719
Speaker 2: Unsolved Homicide Unit dedicated many hundreds of hours to the

95
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:42,320
Speaker 2: case a decade after the Baalinot Detective Glenn Taylor's investigation.

96
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,840
Speaker 2: Here is Bromwin's cousin, Meghan Reid, recalling some of her

97
00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,720
Speaker 2: contact back then with the now retired George Radmore. Meghan

98
00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,880
Speaker 2: spoke as Maddie Walsh went through folders of the evidence

99
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,840
Speaker 2: with me at Meghan's home on Sydney's Northern Beaches. Months

100
00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,920
Speaker 2: before the podcast they started.

101
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,400
Speaker 6: Here we have witness statements from nineteen ninety eight.

102
00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,120
Speaker 4: Yours isn't in nut war and yours are the plastic value.

103
00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,920
Speaker 7: I'd layne in two and nine twenty ten with George.

104
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,840
Speaker 4: Add Moore, who I had a great relationship with. This

105
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,600
Speaker 4: was the one case really upsetting.

106
00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:20,080
Speaker 2: It wasn't sold.

107
00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,600
Speaker 6: I'll think a lot of those emails are between Meagan

108
00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:23,560
Speaker 6: and George Radmore.

109
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:25,600
Speaker 4: That's from George.

110
00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,360
Speaker 8: Thank you for your efforts last week. I know it

111
00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,000
Speaker 8: was draining, but it is necessary to get the full picture. Already,

112
00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,040
Speaker 8: you have provided evidence that I previously did not know existed,

113
00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,600
Speaker 8: and it is very important to the investigation. It makes

114
00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 8: it all the more difficult and time consuming to try

115
00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,600
Speaker 8: to remember things from sixteen years ago, which is why

116
00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:54,560
Speaker 8: the documentation that I have requested is so important. It

117
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,840
Speaker 8: would certainly have been easier if your statement had been

118
00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:03,240
Speaker 8: taken in more detail during the original investigation. However, we

119
00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:04,560
Speaker 8: cannot change that now.

120
00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,760
Speaker 7: George Radmore had successfully put away quite a few people

121
00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,800
Speaker 7: without bodies, and that's why they assigned him to it.

122
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,760
Speaker 7: He's brilliant, He really is brilliant, and he was so disappointed.

123
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,360
Speaker 2: Michelle Reid told me that the forty three page word

124
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,960
Speaker 2: document titled Chronology was provided to her and Andy by

125
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,560
Speaker 2: George Radmore. Perhaps the detective wanted Michelle and Andy to

126
00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,560
Speaker 2: fact check some of the details. The secondary heading on

127
00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:37,360
Speaker 2: the document states.

128
00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,280
Speaker 8: Strikeforce Chelmsbrook Murder of Bronwyn Winfield.

129
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:47,080
Speaker 2: There are several hundred separate entries spanning almost forty years.

130
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,000
Speaker 2: Everything that the police regarded as potentially relevant to their

131
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,520
Speaker 2: investigation is in the Chronology document. The entries are in

132
00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:02,680
Speaker 2: columns under these headings day and time, then occurrence or event,

133
00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:09,480
Speaker 2: then reference document, and then matters arising. The first entry

134
00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,000
Speaker 2: is dated nineteen sixty nine.

135
00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,720
Speaker 8: Jonathan Winfield and Sybil Green meet while students at high school.

136
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:24,280
Speaker 8: Nineteen seventy Jonathan and Sybyl commence sexual relationship while Sybil

137
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:30,079
Speaker 8: fourteen years old. Nineteen seventy two, Sybil falls pregnant to

138
00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:35,640
Speaker 8: Jonathan while still fifteen years old. Parents decide they should marry.

139
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,280
Speaker 8: Winfields suddenly ban Sybil from seeing Jonathan in March or

140
00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:47,800
Speaker 8: April nineteen seventy two. November nineteen seventy two, Sybil gives

141
00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:55,280
Speaker 8: birth to Sonya early nineteen seventy three. Jonathan denies paternity.

142
00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,000
Speaker 2: Before going further, some important points need to be clarified.

143
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,320
Speaker 2: Sybil Green is a pseudonym. We are not identifying the

144
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,800
Speaker 2: woman who was just fifteen when she conceived a child

145
00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,600
Speaker 2: during a relationship with John. John is older than the

146
00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,440
Speaker 2: woman we are calling Sybil by a couple of years.

147
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,120
Speaker 2: When I opened the email from Michelle read and read

148
00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,439
Speaker 2: the names in the chronology document, I checked the records

149
00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,960
Speaker 2: of the Australians Bronman Facebook discussion group as an administrator

150
00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:33,240
Speaker 2: to see if Sonya and her mother had joined. I

151
00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,520
Speaker 2: didn't approach Sonya or her mother, but soon after Michelle's

152
00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,280
Speaker 2: fortuitous discovery of the chronology document, Sonya approached us.

153
00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,040
Speaker 6: I got a message, am I a message request from

154
00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:48,280
Speaker 6: a lady called Sonya.

155
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,160
Speaker 2: And that's why this episode is fundamentally different now to

156
00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,960
Speaker 2: the one that I had planned. Instead of revolving around

157
00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,560
Speaker 2: John's claims and John's shifting version in his nineteen ninety

158
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,319
Speaker 2: eight police interview of who, What, When, where and why

159
00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,800
Speaker 2: at the time of Bromwin's disappearance, this first episode of

160
00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,640
Speaker 2: season two is the story of a woman fathered by John,

161
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,040
Speaker 2: a woman who wants nothing to do with her father

162
00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,320
Speaker 2: apart from her objective to help Bromwin and her family

163
00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:26,679
Speaker 2: get justice. I'm talking here to Maddie Walsh a fortnight

164
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,560
Speaker 2: after Father's Day as she sat in her car in

165
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,440
Speaker 2: Sydney and I hunched over my laptop at home in Brisbane.

166
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,120
Speaker 2: And there's some video at Bromwin podcast dot com.

167
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,640
Speaker 4: All right, yeah, that's fine.

168
00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:41,720
Speaker 2: Saturday morning.

169
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:43,680
Speaker 4: Saturday morning.

170
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,440
Speaker 2: Tell me about this Facebook message.

171
00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:52,880
Speaker 6: Well, I actually got it at five pm yesterday, but

172
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:59,280
Speaker 6: I didn't process it until today. And it says hello

173
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:04,960
Speaker 6: Andy and read JW. Does Jodie realize she is not

174
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:10,080
Speaker 6: his firstborn child. I'm asking you this as if she does, great,

175
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,920
Speaker 6: But if not, then I'm thinking that could throw a

176
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,360
Speaker 6: spanner in the works of her bond with her father.

177
00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,480
Speaker 6: Perhaps the words needed for her and Lauren to question

178
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,600
Speaker 6: his truths pre nineteen seventy two. I don't really have

179
00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,120
Speaker 6: any info in him, except that the look in his

180
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,040
Speaker 6: eye and the way he treated women as a seventeen

181
00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,400
Speaker 6: year old was not well received by a certain fifteen

182
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,640
Speaker 6: year old girl's mother, my grandmother. On her deathbed, I

183
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 6: made a promise that I would reach out when the

184
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,320
Speaker 6: time was right. As a fifty one year old. I'm

185
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,160
Speaker 6: not sure when that time is, but now kind of

186
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 6: feels right. I've been tossing up all week as to

187
00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,720
Speaker 6: who to contact, as strangely enough, Crystal is the only

188
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,280
Speaker 6: one I feel any type of connection with, but I

189
00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,240
Speaker 6: don't think she is in the right frame of mind.

190
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,559
Speaker 6: My kindest regards to you, Andy, You're an amazing brother, and.

191
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 4: Maddie, you are rock sol girl.

192
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,760
Speaker 6: Your parents must be over the moon beaming proud.

193
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,520
Speaker 2: I know who this woman is, and I'm so glad

194
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:10,360
Speaker 2: that she's made contact.

195
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,319
Speaker 6: I didn't realize who she was until I spoke to

196
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:13,959
Speaker 6: you about it.

197
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,640
Speaker 2: Well, when you called me a short time ago and

198
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,760
Speaker 2: you said, hey, I got this message from a woman

199
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,880
Speaker 2: called Sonya, I immediately knew what you were going to

200
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:22,160
Speaker 2: tell me.

201
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, which is crazy that she reached out.

202
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:32,920
Speaker 2: She is the daughter of a woman who was fifteen

203
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:39,360
Speaker 2: when she became pregnant in nineteen seventy two. And my

204
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:45,640
Speaker 2: understanding is that the parents of John and Sonya's mother

205
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,080
Speaker 2: agreed or decided that they should marry.

206
00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,320
Speaker 6: So was that after his daughter was born.

207
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,000
Speaker 2: That must have been before she was born. He was

208
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,120
Speaker 2: older than her. From the documents I've seen, Maddie, Sonya

209
00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:10,520
Speaker 2: was born in November nineteen seventy two. The relationship had

210
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,040
Speaker 2: just fallen apart, and they'd gone from being prepared to

211
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:21,320
Speaker 2: marry to estrangement. And this poor young girl is having

212
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,600
Speaker 2: John's baby. So when you got that message from Sonya,

213
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:29,520
Speaker 2: what were you thinking?

214
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:35,960
Speaker 6: I was still stuck trying to figure out how she

215
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,120
Speaker 6: knew this and how she was related.

216
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:44,440
Speaker 2: And she does describe a little cryptically in that key sentence,

217
00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:45,920
Speaker 2: doesn't she It.

218
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,320
Speaker 6: Wasn't as though she said I am John's first daughter.

219
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:56,080
Speaker 2: She's asking whether Jody knows that Sonya is actually John's

220
00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,360
Speaker 2: first child? But why is that important to Sonya?

221
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:00,640
Speaker 4: Too?

222
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,120
Speaker 6: Kind of breakdown that layer of trust that John and

223
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,800
Speaker 6: Jody have shown that they have with each other, that

224
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,200
Speaker 6: maybe Jody will take a step back and reevaluate what

225
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,360
Speaker 6: her father has told her and all the truths he

226
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,920
Speaker 6: has supposedly told her, and maybe rethink that not everything

227
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:19,800
Speaker 6: is the truth.

228
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,200
Speaker 2: That does sound like it's part of her motivation.

229
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,800
Speaker 6: And I don't know many people who know about this.

230
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a very well kept secret. I don't

231
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,560
Speaker 2: think she's had any contact at all with her father.

232
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,840
Speaker 6: I get that impression because she says pre nineteen seventy two,

233
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,320
Speaker 6: I don't really have any info on him, which means

234
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,360
Speaker 6: since she was born, she hasn't ever known him. Quite possibly,

235
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,720
Speaker 6: her mother told her who her father was, but she

236
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,000
Speaker 6: never had a relationship with him. And since this podcast

237
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:59,600
Speaker 6: has come out, she's heard about him and she's felt

238
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:01,400
Speaker 6: that she should reach.

239
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,400
Speaker 2: Out this deathbed point. What do you take from that.

240
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,400
Speaker 6: Well, it's almost as though her grandmother, Sonya's grandmother knew

241
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,240
Speaker 6: that John wasn't a good person. Her grandmother had this

242
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,720
Speaker 6: inkling that something wasn't quite right with him, and the

243
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,600
Speaker 6: fact that she felt the need to tell Sonya on

244
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,640
Speaker 6: her deathbed. We don't know much about John previous to

245
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,600
Speaker 6: his first two wives. This is the earliest recollection of

246
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,440
Speaker 6: any kind of relationship. It seems as though his behavior

247
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:34,960
Speaker 6: wasn't good.

248
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:40,119
Speaker 2: Then he's taken no responsibility for the care and upbringing

249
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:41,520
Speaker 2: of his first child.

250
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,920
Speaker 6: He doesn't seem like Sonya wants to know her father.

251
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,560
Speaker 6: It's almost as though she wants Jodie to know the

252
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,360
Speaker 6: truth about her father and Lauren to know that their

253
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,600
Speaker 6: father isn't as great as he may seem. If she

254
00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,920
Speaker 6: really doesn't know, and she doesn't know this information, it

255
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,760
Speaker 6: might cause her to take a little step back and

256
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:06,880
Speaker 6: kind of really think about it.

257
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,880
Speaker 2: Sonya's mother would have been John's first wife if things

258
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,360
Speaker 2: had turned out differently.

259
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,879
Speaker 6: If everything else played out, four wives or by the

260
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:22,160
Speaker 6: time he was thirty Now, honestly, to me, that's weird behavior.

261
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:27,440
Speaker 6: Who knows about this and just hasn't mentioned it. If

262
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,879
Speaker 6: Lauren's aware, if Jodie's aware, I don't know. Would he

263
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,240
Speaker 6: have confided that in them when they got older.

264
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,840
Speaker 2: It also seems from the tone of that message that

265
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,840
Speaker 2: she's formed a view of John, which is the same

266
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:46,800
Speaker 2: view that the police and others have formed of John

267
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,040
Speaker 2: as being responsible for Bromwin's disappearance.

268
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,280
Speaker 6: It's just stuff coming out of the wouldwork like this

269
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,479
Speaker 6: that changes a lot in terms of someone's character and

270
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,480
Speaker 6: skeletons in the closet could.

271
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,280
Speaker 2: Say, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of

272
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:09,199
Speaker 2: someone who's to become involved in a physical relationship with

273
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,640
Speaker 2: a girl. She's far too young, But he's also very

274
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 2: young too. He's not a man in his thirties. His

275
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,960
Speaker 2: brain is still developing at that age. However, on the

276
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,879
Speaker 2: character point, the failure to be prepared to try to

277
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:34,720
Speaker 2: support her contribute to her upbringing and education and her needs.

278
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:41,600
Speaker 6: This does add into John's behaviors and patterns as well

279
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,960
Speaker 6: of John's parents and his mother, and the constant need

280
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:50,439
Speaker 6: to push the women away if they step on the

281
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,159
Speaker 6: wrong toes or something happens. We know he tried to

282
00:18:54,200 --> 00:19:00,440
Speaker 6: pay off Jenny with Jodie for John to have City.

283
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 2: Maddie is referring to evidence given to the police by

284
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,080
Speaker 2: John's first wife, Jennifer in the lead up to the

285
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 2: two thousand and two inquest. You heard some of it

286
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:12,920
Speaker 2: in episode ten.

287
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 9: I remember John's mother saying something like no woman walks

288
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,679
Speaker 9: out on my son. I recall John's parents turned up

289
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,359
Speaker 9: one day with John and they.

290
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,240
Speaker 4: Picked up Jody and walked out the door.

291
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 9: Grandma Winfield said, when you get your act together, you

292
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 9: can have a back. I blame myself now, but at

293
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,959
Speaker 9: the time I didn't understand the laws properly, and I

294
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 9: was depressed and having problems with my life. And after

295
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,040
Speaker 9: this John and myself initiated divorce proceedings. John offered me

296
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 9: twenty thousand dollars so he could keep custody of Jody.

297
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 9: I told him to stick his twenty thousand dollars and

298
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,440
Speaker 9: take good care of Jody, and that's how John ended

299
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,439
Speaker 9: up having custody of her. The way I was at

300
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 9: the time, I was mentally depressed and I'd become suicidal.

301
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 9: John wouldn't allow me to visit already at school, and

302
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 9: they constantly pushed me away from her. I used to

303
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 9: sit outside the school watching Jody play at lunchtime in

304
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 9: the school grounds.

305
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,400
Speaker 6: There's this controlling nature that kind of threads through the family,

306
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,560
Speaker 6: trying to gain control of the situation and pushing people

307
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 6: away when it doesn't.

308
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,120
Speaker 4: Go the way they want.

309
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,879
Speaker 6: It would have been John's parents at that stage making

310
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,200
Speaker 6: the decisions for John, I would assume, especially his mother,

311
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 6: given how much we know he adored her and how

312
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,879
Speaker 6: much of a part she had in his life. I

313
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,199
Speaker 6: do definitely think it would have been more of his

314
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 6: mother's decision to get Sonya and her mother out of

315
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 6: his life. Why are the women not being kept around?

316
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 6: Is it based on they're not perfect enough for John?

317
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 6: Or no, they're not perfect enough for John's mother.

318
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 2: Shortly before her disappearance, Bromwin wrote about John, his and

319
00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 2: her unhappiness, perfectionism, and John's mother. Here it is in

320
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 2: the first episode.

321
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,959
Speaker 10: I drifted away from John as he became more and

322
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 10: more depressed about the house being less than immaculate and

323
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,119
Speaker 10: the death of his mother, the only woman he thought

324
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:18,159
Speaker 10: was perfect. Eventually I switched off and became cold inside.

325
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 10: He had a heart of ice and always criticized me

326
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,640
Speaker 10: no matter what I did. The man was cold and

327
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,400
Speaker 10: heartless and gave nothing but expected everything.

328
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 2: Have you replied to Sonya, No, not yet. What do

329
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 2: you intend to say?

330
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 6: Well, I was going to thank her for reaching out.

331
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 6: I'm not sure it could have been easy. This is

332
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 6: her father. She's never had a relationship with him, and

333
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 6: I'm pretty sure she knows she never will. But she

334
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 6: also has sisters out there, half sisters.

335
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 4: I feel like she wants to help.

336
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 6: She feels as though this is the starting of his lies.

337
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 6: I mean it's time. She said she was waiting for

338
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 6: the right time. Then I really think that time is now,

339
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 6: I guess before it's too late.

340
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 2: Feeling like she has a connection with Crystal and admiring

341
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 2: from Afar, you and Andy as she's listening to everything.

342
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: At the same time, it seems she suspects that her

343
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 2: biological dad killed a beautiful woman called Bromin.

344
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,160
Speaker 6: Maybe she has that thought in the back of her

345
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 6: mind that he.

346
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 4: Could have been her mother.

347
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 6: With Jenny's statement as well, and how John was violent

348
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 6: with her.

349
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,159
Speaker 9: He'd yell at me and he made him scared of him.

350
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 9: He said to me, I'll kill you if you say

351
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 9: that again. And at the time he had his hands

352
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 9: around my throat and was squeezing. I remember I managed

353
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 9: to say go ahead. Into my surprise, he kept squeezing

354
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 9: me around the throat. I managed to kick him in

355
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 9: the groin and I got away from him and hitting

356
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 9: the outside laundry.

357
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 6: After hearing the podcast, maybe she counts herself lucky that

358
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 6: she didn't grow up with her father like John.

359
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 2: Does she say anywhere in her note to you that

360
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 2: it's confidentially No, she didn't. Can you just mention to

361
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 2: her that you've shared it with me and we've talked

362
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 2: about it, and that we would really like to chat

363
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 2: to her. Yeah, we're happy to chat to her on

364
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 2: background or off the record at first, if she wants

365
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: to get comfortable.

366
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, for sure.

367
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 6: I just think it's honestly insane. The developments that have

368
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 6: happened with in this case are crazy. We need to

369
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 6: dive right back into John's childhood. It might be hard

370
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 6: to get there, but I think that will answer a

371
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,479
Speaker 6: lot his relationship with his parents when he was younger,

372
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 6: what he went through in school, everything that was really

373
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 6: going on during John's childhood and upbringing, and the family dynamic. Ultimately,

374
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 6: I really think it would answer a lot of questions

375
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 6: as to his character and why he is the way

376
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 6: he is, and why he keeps such picked secrets like

377
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,959
Speaker 6: this to keep it so tightly under wraps. Even John's

378
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 6: parents not to have a relationship with their granddaughter, their

379
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 6: first granddaughter, is also a little bit unbathomable because she

380
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 6: was just an innocent baby.

381
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 2: Recording stopped, Maddie wrote back to Sonya, and then I

382
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: phoned her. We worked out that at the exact time

383
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 2: she was assigning to reach out to Andy and Maddie,

384
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: the police chronology document naming her as John's daughter was

385
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 2: being recovered by Michelle and sent to me. Sonya sounded

386
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 2: completely unemotional, unaffected. During our twenty minutes on the phone.

387
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 2: She matter of factly told me that her biological father

388
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 2: was a bad liar. His lying had shattered Sonya's mother

389
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 2: when John publicly denied being the father of the baby

390
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 2: growing inside the girl. The cruel result was the false

391
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 2: claim that a fifteen year old dealing with unplanned pregnancy

392
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 2: and whose first and only love back then had been John,

393
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: had slept around with different guys. Nothing could be further

394
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 2: from the truth. Part of Sonya's point is that significant

395
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: lies define a person's character. Exposing these lies might help

396
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: resolve Bromwin's case. It might prompt people aware of other

397
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 2: lies relevant to Broman's disappearance to come forward, and it

398
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 2: possibly explains why detectives on Bromin's case went to the

399
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: trouble of investigating John's conduct from the nineteen seventies. They

400
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 2: took a statement from the mother of Sonya. We agreed

401
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 2: to meet the following morning in Southport at the offices

402
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 2: of the Gold Coast Bollton newspaper, where I started forty

403
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: years ago as a copyboy. I was taken aback when

404
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 2: I saw her waiting for me in the lobby near

405
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: the elevator. Sonya is a physical near replica of John Winfield.

406
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 2: She's just younger. The likeness is incredible and at first disconcerting.

407
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 2: An accused murderer who has always emphatically denied wrongdoing and

408
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: emphatically denied that Sonya was his daughter, would surely admit

409
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: to being her father within moments of seeing her. Now,

410
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: I would wage a good money that a DNA test

411
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 2: would confirmternity. Margaret is Sonya had thoughtfully brought a family

412
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 2: pack of biscuits for us to snack on and leave

413
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 2: behind for the papers reporters.

414
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 4: Grandma raised me well.

415
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 2: We rowed the lift and crossed the floor of the

416
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 2: newsroom with the editor, Ryan Keene, who let us use

417
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: his office. I'm just going to use my phone, Ye

418
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: to do the recording. Sonya started telling her story. The

419
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 2: mother of two teenage boys tethered it to her grandmother,

420
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 2: who died in April twenty eighteen. In her last months,

421
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 2: Sonya was with the elderly woman almost every.

422
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 4: Day, and during that time a lot of conversations. We

423
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 4: had stories, who told secrets, who shared. Back in nineteen

424
00:27:53,960 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 4: seventy two, things were great financially, and my grandma pregnancy

425
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 4: thought it would be a great idea to separate the

426
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 4: two of them for my mother's benefit mental and emotional reasons,

427
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 4: which at the time wasn't told to my mother. In truth,

428
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 4: she thought her heart had been broken John was breaking

429
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 4: up with her was in fact my grandmother separated the

430
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 4: two of them for the final stages of the pregnancy.

431
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 4: She never said a nice word about him. She never

432
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 4: said a nice word about the Winfields. They were always

433
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 4: the words she uses, hoity tweety. My grandmother sent something

434
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 4: and removed my mother and myself from that circle. Fraternity

435
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 4: was always denied on his part. Abortion wasn't legal back then,

436
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 4: and it wasn't affordable within the family. My grandparents had

437
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 4: no money. They lived day to day. He drove a taxi,

438
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 4: so whatever fair he brought home at the end of

439
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 4: the day went to buy the food and what not

440
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 4: for the kids. So it was arranged for my mother

441
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 4: to go to South Australia where it could be done financially.

442
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 4: They weren't in a position for her to get to

443
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 4: South Australia. The pregnancy had gone along too far, so

444
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 4: termination wasn't possible in a safe sense. Then I was

445
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 4: to be adopted. I was supposed to be taken from

446
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 4: mom to become adopted. My grandfather became involved on the

447
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 4: day of my birth and refused that. Part of the

448
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 4: conversation was difficult for my grandmother to have emotionally, and

449
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 4: she kept getting very upset I think that was guilt

450
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 4: on her part because she thought it was the best

451
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 4: thing to do, and had my grandfather not stepped in,

452
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 4: that would have happened. Moving forward through the seventies eighties,

453
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 4: my bond with my grandmother was inseparable. She was like

454
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 4: my mom. I pretty much went from the hospital to her.

455
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 4: Mom was sixteen. She didn't know anything. My grandma had

456
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 4: already raised two girls, so she knew exactly what was

457
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 4: going on. My grandfather fell ill. He had many strokes

458
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 4: and many heart attacks before he passed away. I was eight.

459
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 4: He was like my dad, so I didn't miss having

460
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 4: a mom and dad figure. It's just that my real

461
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 4: mom was really really young. So when Grandma is sitting

462
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 4: with me passing away and telling me the truth of

463
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 4: the story, to me as an adult, it hadn't affected

464
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 4: my life for forty seven years, and it hasn't affected

465
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 4: my life since then. I've known that he didn't want me.

466
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 4: I'm known that his parents thought horrible things about my

467
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 4: mother and vocalized those things. It wasn't just her having sex.

468
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 4: He was involved as well. But he was the golden

469
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 4: child within his family and very very, very heavily influenced

470
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 4: by his mother. The first time I ever saw his

471
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 4: face was on the front page of The Australian.

472
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: When you saw the man you know is your father

473
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: for the first time. It was a photograph of him

474
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 2: in relation to this podcast, Romlan correct must have come

475
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 2: as quite a shop.

476
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 4: Honestly, I text my mom straight away and said, I'm

477
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 4: growing my hair.

478
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 2: You've just taken your calf after when I first saw

479
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 2: you downstairs in the lobby. Even it was struck by

480
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 2: the likeness.

481
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,719
Speaker 4: That part with my mum has been difficult. There's a

482
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 4: photo on my great aunt's TV and it's a photo

483
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 4: of me in a school uniform at twelve or thirteen.

484
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 4: And that photo on the front page where he has

485
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 4: a mustache when he's younger. That's me. That is that

486
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 4: photo less than mustache. And until I saw that, I

487
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 4: never actually got what mum was saying, because sometimes she'd

488
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 4: say to me, I, forgot's sake, can you go and

489
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 4: put a shirt on. I just can't see your arms

490
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 4: or your shoulders because I'm that much for her a resemblance.

491
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 4: But I didn't see it until four months ago. It

492
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 4: wasn't really spoken about within our house. His name is very, very,

493
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 4: very rarely mentioned. I can remember as a teenager and

494
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 4: I was a silly smoker, and I came home with

495
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 4: a packet Wingfield cigarettes. My grandmother blew her stack. I

496
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 4: still didn't get it until on her deathbed and she

497
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 4: spoke about it, and I was like, ahuh, is.

498
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 2: There a name of a man on your birth certificate?

499
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 4: It's blank or father unknown. I believe that your maternal

500
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 4: family was one hundred percent responsible to prove paternity. There

501
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 4: was no money for the test needed to prove what

502
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 4: they needed to prove. She would have been fourteen when

503
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 4: their relationship started, fifteen.

504
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: As it progressed, John had moved on by late nine

505
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: teen seventy two. Sonya was born in November of that year.

506
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 2: He is more from Jennifer Mason's statement to police, which

507
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 2: you heard in episode ten.

508
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 9: In approximately December nineteen seventy two, when I was sixteen

509
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 9: years of age, I met a young man named John

510
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 9: Winfield and we.

511
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 4: Formed a relationship.

512
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 9: We'd only been going out for about three months when

513
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 9: I fell pregnant. John Winfield and I married when I

514
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 9: was about three months pregnant.

515
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 2: When Sonya was born, her father would have been a

516
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: few months shy of his eighteenth birthday. Her mother had

517
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: just turned sixteenth.

518
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 4: I've known what the girls have looked like for many

519
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 4: many years. Strangely enough, would have been a very very

520
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 4: early two thousands. I was mistaken for Jodie in a

521
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 4: music shop in Byron Bay. I had long hair then,

522
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 4: and it wasn't until many years later that I realized,

523
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, she's mistaken me for Jodie Winfield. Fifteen

524
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 4: years ago, I was mistaken again as one of the girls.

525
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 4: I don't recall which one. Someone came up and said,

526
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 4: I know you, I know you and your sister from

527
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 4: down ATLANTICX. And I don't have a sister, So I said,

528
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 4: I'm not me, mister. Sorry, I don't have a sister.

529
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 4: Oh sorry, I just got the resemblance is uncanny. So yeah,

530
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 4: it's been a minute.

531
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: You mentioned that you had seen photographs of the daughters,

532
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 2: and I think you're referring to Jody, Lauren and Crystal.

533
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 4: Correct. My wife, her best friend from school's friends with Jody.

534
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 2: Sonya explained that for about twenty years she had avoided

535
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: going to her wife's best friend's house in Lennox Head.

536
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 2: She recently asked that best friend.

537
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 4: Do you know these people, but I know she does.

538
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 4: When she was like, oh my god, he's that They

539
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 4: refer to him as JTM. She knows him from the

540
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 4: local lenox Head IgA.

541
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 2: I asked if her wife's friend had talked to Jodi

542
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 2: Wimfield about the existence of her half sister Sonya.

543
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: No.

544
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 4: Never, she would never air my laundry. She just knows

545
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 4: her socially through Lenox Head their friends.

546
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 2: Sonya had seen photographs of her half sisters Jody and

547
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 2: Lauren because of the mutual friend in Lennox Head, coincidentally

548
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 2: tagging them on Facebook. That friend was unaware at the

549
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 2: time of the biological ties.

550
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 4: Gosh, this is my boys were in nappies a long

551
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 4: time ago, and so I clicked on and I was like,

552
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, I can see the resemblance.

553
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: Have you wanted to reach out to Jodie or the

554
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: other girls?

555
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 4: Never? Never, I feel so thankful that my grandmother had

556
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 4: the foresight that she had. I feel very, very sorry

557
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 4: for the girls more Crystal. I think that's because she

558
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 4: knew her mum. You know your mom at ten, you

559
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 4: miss your mom at ten. I feel really sorry for Crystal.

560
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 4: She must have so many stories going around in her mind.

561
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 4: But as far as any of the Windfield, I don't

562
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 4: like them. I don't dislike them. They exist and I exist.

563
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 4: We just exist separately. My grandmother had said to me

564
00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 4: that they're all kidding themselves if they don't believe that

565
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 4: you exist. He knows you're his.

566
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 2: When you were growing up, Sonya, and when you were

567
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 2: old enough to understand that you were being raised by

568
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 2: your mother and your grandparents, did you ask questions? Did

569
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: you yearn to know who was your biological father?

570
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 4: There was a gentleman in my life who is still

571
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 4: in my life. He's been a fantastic father to me.

572
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,720
Speaker 4: He's been an exceptional dad to me. He's been all

573
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 4: I've known and all I have needed as a father.

574
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 4: We have an awesome relationship as father and daughter. I

575
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 4: didn't come from him, He didn't make me, but we're

576
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 4: father and daughter.

577
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 2: Were you at the same time ever yearning to know

578
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 2: who your dad was biologically No?

579
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 4: Never, I've never felt the need to reach out to

580
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 4: establish any connection. My grandmother was troubled. She was worried

581
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 4: for me maturing, not knowing things like my medical history.

582
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 4: And I said to her, Grammy, you're just being eastily

583
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 4: you're on your Deathbedge, you're overthinking, You're worrying, Like, just

584
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 4: relax and enjoy your life. She said to me, you're

585
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 4: very blunt in your decision to just cut And I

586
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 4: think that I'm very blunt in my decision because from

587
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy two until two thousand she lived in the

588
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 4: same house. If he wanted to reach out, he could

589
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 4: have reached out at any moment in his life.

590
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: When Bromwin disappeared in May nineteen ninety three, John's daughter

591
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 2: was six months away from her twenty first birthday. In

592
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: September of that year, John wrote to the family of

593
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 2: one of Roman's former boyfriends, Mark Guthrie. Mark and his

594
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 2: family believed at the time that he was the biological

595
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 2: father of Crystal, who was then aged ten. John took

596
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 2: the moral high ground in his letter. He explained to

597
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 2: Mark Guthrie what paternal responsibility really meant. Here's a reminder

598
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 2: from episode ten. John wrote to the family and to

599
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: their solicitor. I have a copy of the letter. These

600
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 2: are John's words, but it's not John's voice. One.

601
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 11: Mark has never personally or in writing approached us in

602
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 11: regards to access to Crystal. Two. We have always been locatable.

603
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 11: We have always been in the telephone book. Had he

604
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 11: really wanted to, Mark could have found us at any time.

605
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 11: Not only have you failed to mention the possibility of

606
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 11: child support, something that has been my responsibility for almost

607
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 11: eleven years, but you have failed to consider Crystal's feelings

608
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 11: and what she wants to do.

609
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: About this delicate situation.

610
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 11: I have a responsibility to Crystel to introduce her to

611
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 11: her real biological father, and I will. The lack of

612
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 11: any offers of financial support in almost eleven years also

613
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 11: tells me that mister Guthrie is not sure of fatherhood. Consequently,

614
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 11: that would lead us to the child support agency, and

615
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 11: a deduction from Mark's wages to the tune of one

616
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 11: hundred and forty five dollars per month backdated maintenance to

617
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 11: December nineteen eighty two with an interest adjustment would be

618
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 11: the best part of ten thousand dollars maintenance if I

619
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 11: am is payable up to the age of sixteen years,

620
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,439
Speaker 11: so we could develop into a nice little nest egg

621
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 11: for Crystal in her later years. Yours, sincerely, John Winfield.

622
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 4: If you have never had it, you can't miss it.

623
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 4: So as a person I've never had him, so I

624
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 4: don't know him, so I've never missed him. I don't

625
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 4: know what it means to miss having a sister. I

626
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 4: do know that I have no inclination to have them

627
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 4: in my life. That was his choice back in the seventies.

628
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 4: You can make a choice, that's fine, but you can't

629
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 4: live your life denying. If the girls need to question

630
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 4: anyone's truths, his truths, start questioning them. Poor Crystal, as

631
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 4: a human, How can you put somebody through that.

632
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 2: I spoke to Crystal yesterday and I said, have you

633
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: ever known of any other siblings? And she said, no, no,

634
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: there's no one else. When do you think you understood

635
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: that your biological father's surname was Wingfield? Sonia said that

636
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 2: she was in her early twenties and her mother needed

637
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 2: to have.

638
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 4: Surgery and she was extremely paranoid that she wasn't going

639
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 4: to make it. And that's the first time she told

640
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 4: me his actual full name. I recall the conversation. I

641
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 4: said to her, why are you telling me this? You

642
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 4: know I'm not interested. Why now, in this moment of

643
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 4: our lives, are you telling me? And I was more

644
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 4: worried about surgery. I know she loved him. I know

645
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 4: she was smitten by young sexy sir for John first

646
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 4: loves that. Whether she was his, I don't know. There

647
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 4: could be older kids than me. All I know is

648
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 4: in seventy two he denied me, which broke my mother's heart.

649
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: Many of us would jump straight onto Google and start

650
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: looking for someone, but you never did that. You didn't

651
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 2: want to check him out. You didn't understand the case

652
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 2: that the police had tried to build. Sonya recalled having

653
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 2: to go to Balana with her mother for a meeting

654
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: with detectives investigating Bromin's alleged murder.

655
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 4: I mean I didn't want to go because I wasn't interested.

656
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 4: I still don't really know why I was in there

657
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 4: that day.

658
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,760
Speaker 2: Her mother made a police statement at the time.

659
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 4: I never researched. I was never interested. I did feel. However,

660
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 4: on one episode of the plot cast, you were driving

661
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 4: in Lennox and I was in the car with you

662
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 4: in my mind.

663
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 12: Literally around the corner at five ten minutes, I can

664
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 12: take you there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll take you

665
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 12: for a drive. We call this the Headlands. That's where

666
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 12: I see John walking around here.

667
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: A millionaires role.

668
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 12: I call it he bought a dual block, one for

669
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 12: himself and one for Jody. Always get him confused, Sorry, Ledley,

670
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 12: now here we are here. Yeah, he bought that block

671
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 12: and that block the house next saw that to jobs.

672
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 12: That's a fortress.

673
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: That is very odd looking.

674
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 12: It a big needs of him inside.

675
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 4: That's his car and the driveway.

676
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 2: That's him there right, very ecclusive. As you can see.

677
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 4: You're sitting up there in your smug castor.

678
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 12: Seemed like a terrible person do.

679
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 2: This has weighed on you for a long time.

680
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 12: Because I have a sister, and if it hadn't been

681
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 12: my family, I just don't know how I would be

682
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 12: able to handle that.

683
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 2: She was a friend and a good friend at the time.

684
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 2: We'd still be friends today. I know we would.

685
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 4: I was sitting on the footstool next to my bed.

686
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 4: I got on Google Maps, and before you'd finished speaking,

687
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 4: I'd worked out his address. I google Maps searched the

688
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 4: house and there was a photo of him on the

689
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 4: Google Maps of his house standing over what looked like

690
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 4: a shower area, an outside shower. That's the first and

691
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:47,240
Speaker 4: the last time.

692
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that photo you're talking about. We paused

693
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 2: to open the packet of biscuits she had brought.

694
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 4: Grandma always said, you have to blame someone to the table,

695
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 4: no matter where you're going, you have to take something

696
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 4: to the table, old Scotch finger.

697
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 2: How's your mum doing.

698
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 4: The relationship between my mum and I is amazing.

699
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: Sonya told me her mother had been following the case

700
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 2: again with the podcast.

701
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 4: Regarding the podcast, I think she's like everybody else, wondering

702
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 4: what the police were are and will be doing. We're

703
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 4: very hopeful that you guys will get a good outcome

704
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 4: for the girls, whatever that may be. She's content that

705
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 4: I'm content. Every now and then I'm forced to think

706
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 4: of him because my mum will bring something garp. There

707
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 4: was a time I lost patience with her, which was

708
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 4: not long after she found out that Bronwin Winfield was

709
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 4: a missing person. She found out by chance. She saw

710
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 4: her missing person sign on the IgA notice board at

711
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 4: Lennox Head, noticed the surname, put three and three together,

712
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 4: worked it out that Ron win Winfield and John Winfield

713
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 4: was the same John Winfield that was my father. For

714
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 4: a long time, it was all she wanted to speak about,

715
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:29,280
Speaker 4: and for all of that long time I would avoid

716
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 4: speaking to her. Because it was all she wanted to

717
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 4: speak about. I said to my grandma the one day

718
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 4: on the phone, I just I can't do it anymore.

719
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 4: I cannot listen to it anymore. It's not what life is.

720
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 4: Life is different. And that's the decision he chose back

721
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 4: in the seventies, and thank god you chose what you

722
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 4: chose in the seventies. Mattie said something, and I thought

723
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 4: to myself, I know that there's documents with my name

724
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 4: on it, whether it's a statement or whether it's just

725
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 4: a note that I was in the station that day.

726
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 4: I thought that I would reach out purely because you

727
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 4: would never have found me. I have nothing to hide.

728
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 4: All you have is the name of Sonya. I don't

729
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 4: even go by that name, but I go by the

730
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 4: name of Lee. I've done nothing wrong, though, I have

731
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 4: nothing to be ashamed of. And that's what Grandma said

732
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 4: to me. Well, you'll know when the time is right

733
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 4: to reach out. Whether she meant reaching out to one

734
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 4: of the girls, whether she meant reaching out to one

735
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 4: of Bronwyn's family, I don't know who she meant reaching

736
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 4: out to. This might sound a bit silly, but you

737
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 4: mentioned that you had read the document with my name

738
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 4: on it about the same time that I had started

739
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 4: thinking about maybe now is the right time.

740
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: Coincidences like these sometimes seem more likely to be calmer.

741
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 4: It might give the girls a different light to see

742
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 4: their father in. You know, if you can't be honest

743
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 4: and open about it now that yes, I got a

744
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 4: girl pregnant on the beach in Cronulla in nineteen seventy two,

745
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,399
Speaker 4: I own it. I did it, and I lied about it.

746
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,240
Speaker 2: When you say he lied about it, are you referring

747
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,879
Speaker 2: to his denial of patunity.

748
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 4: Because he may as well have lied about the whole relationship,

749
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 4: which is I think what broke my mother's heart.

750
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 2: The shame and stigma of teenage pregnancy must have shaped

751
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 2: some of the decisions made by Sonya's grandparents.

752
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 4: They thought that they would pretend that I was Grandma's baby,

753
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 4: because no one had actually seen Mom pregnant as such,

754
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:58,399
Speaker 4: because she was a very slim girl, quite slight. So

755
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,720
Speaker 4: there was this thing I will just say that it's

756
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:07,879
Speaker 4: Grandma's new baby. My auntie, who was like eight at

757
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 4: the time, was playing silly buggers on the stairs and fell.

758
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 4: Mom came out, Grandma came out, the neighbors saw Mom's

759
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 4: big belly and the couple was won.

760
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 2: And then where were you raised?

761
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 4: In the shire?

762
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 2: Sonia told me that she had listened carefully to the

763
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 2: first ten episodes of the Broman podcast series, as well

764
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 2: as these subscriber only bonus episodes of eleven and twelve.

765
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:37,479
Speaker 2: Have you formed a view?

766
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 4: I think I formed my grandmother's view. My opinion of

767
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 4: him is what she feed into me.

768
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: What did she feed into you of him?

769
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 4: How different my life would have been with him in it?

770
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 4: For the negative?

771
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 2: For what reasons? What did she describe in his personality

772
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 2: or character?

773
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 4: His controllingness? She said, him and his mother had a

774
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 4: look in their eye, a look that you wouldn't cross.

775
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 4: And the day she saw that look was the day

776
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 4: she knew and she saw the look about three and

777
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 4: a half, four months into the pregnancy, she said. Prior

778
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 4: to the pregnancy, he was very welcomed within the house.

779
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:36,800
Speaker 4: It's come over for dinner all the time. The whole

780
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 4: couple think they were boyfriend and girlfriend for a long time.

781
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 4: They were in a relationship. It's not like she had

782
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 4: just a small version of John. He loved her cooking.

783
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 4: He would often come to the home and you know,

784
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 4: they'd sit down and then Pa would run him home

785
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 4: again in the gab So she knew him well and

786
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 4: she said he was lovely at stuff.

787
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 2: Sonya spoke of the nineteen eighties movie Puberty Blues. The

788
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,399
Speaker 2: Australian classic is based on the book of the same name,

789
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 2: written in the seventies by Gabrielle Carey and Kathy Lett.

790
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 2: It weaves a story about teenage girls growing up in

791
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 2: the Shire and around Cronulla in a culture of underage sex,

792
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 2: panel vans, surfing and deeply entrenched misogyny.

793
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 4: Who is he one of the boys he's sending down

794
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 4: at the beach Worksy's old man and he's got a

795
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 4: panel band. Oh god, do I look it right?

796
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 2: Routable?

797
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 4: If you meet Bruce Bruce, Debbie hie, yeah, ghetto Bruce,

798
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:13,720
Speaker 4: go for it.

799
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 2: Well, come on, he won't fight.

800
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 4: Will you go around with me? Yeah? Give have a

801
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 4: good time.

802
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 13: I was conceived on Valentine's Day seventy two, so I

803
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 13: was born nine months after that. It just all blew up,

804
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 13: And Grandma believes it all blew up over money.

805
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 4: They'd spoken about married joining. His mother's bond was unbreakable.

806
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 2: At the same time. Your grandmother wanted to separate her

807
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 2: daughter and John.

808
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 4: Not until mid pregnancy when it started to get nasty.

809
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 4: On the Winfields part. It was all about what John

810
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 4: said and what John's mother said, and Mum having any

811
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 4: say in her pregnant self was not going to be allowed.

812
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 4: She was going to be controlled. Grandma remembers Mom coming

813
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 4: home and they'd been out for dinner. He used to

814
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 4: like to eat Chinese food. The meal was sweet and

815
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 4: sour pork. Grandma said that. Mom's like, oh, John's such

816
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:38,839
Speaker 4: a gentleman. He pulls my chair out for me and

817
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 4: he justhes my food up for me. He only lets

818
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 4: me have a couple of spoons of rice though, And

819
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 4: Grandma was like what, and she said, oh, yeah, he

820
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 4: likes me to watch my weight. I can remember Grandma saying,

821
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 4: That's the minute I knew I was right.

822
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 2: Sonya's mother was badly smeared in the blame game which

823
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 2: followed her pregnancy. The decision of John and the Winfield

824
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 2: family to walk away from responsibility and formally deny a

825
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 2: paternity cut deeply. Sonya's mother was still besotted with John.

826
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 2: She had changed her life. She was forced to hide

827
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 2: from local busybodies. As her belly grew with John's baby,

828
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 2: her wounding over John's claim that he was not the

829
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 2: father of her unborn baby was made worse. Sonya's mother

830
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 2: was characterized as a girl who must have cheated on John.

831
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 2: She was tarnished as a girl who was carrying an

832
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:38,240
Speaker 2: unknown man's baby.

833
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 4: I remember Grandma saying, missus Winfield. The words were something

834
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 4: along the lines of an easy piece of work. Of course,

835
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 4: she goes all the way to the city for tech,

836
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 4: so here's no saying that it's John's baby, because she's

837
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 4: an easy piece of work.

838
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 2: Sonya knew from our first conversation on the telephone that

839
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 2: I had read about her on Father's Day in a

840
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 2: sixteen year old police document recovered by Bromwin's sister in law,

841
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 2: Michelle read, that's the document that mentions Sonya and her

842
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 2: birth in nineteen seventy two. I told Sonya in that

843
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 2: call that Michelle was going through her emails to make

844
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 2: sure that she hadn't overlooked anything. Michelle was wanting to

845
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 2: ensure that season two of Bromin leaves no stone unturned,

846
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 2: at least as far as her own documents and files

847
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 2: are concerned. I wondered whether you were aware of the podcast,

848
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 2: and whether you were connected in any way to what

849
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 2: was unfolding, and whether your mom was I decided to

850
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 2: just let it rest for a bit and just see

851
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 2: what would happen. And then you came forward.

852
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 4: I pressed send, and I was like, Okay, well, there

853
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 4: you go. You've done it. But I felt so relieved

854
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 4: that I pressed send.

855
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 2: And what happens with these podcasts investigations is people listen

856
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 2: and hear other good people coming forward for the first

857
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 2: time disclosing information that they've held pretty close for a

858
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 2: long time, and that has a very powerful effect on

859
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 2: listeners who also have information. And he think I'm alone.

860
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 2: Other people are sharing information that's more or less valuable

861
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 2: than mine. I should just do it.

862
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 4: I had a feeling the same time that you were

863
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 4: reading the document.

864
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 2: Hypothetical seem John Winfield makes contact with you and says, look,

865
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 2: i'm your father and I want to you and tell

866
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 2: you a bit about why I haven't been in touch.

867
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 2: How do you respond?

868
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 4: I would probably not respond. I don't feel he's worthy

869
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 4: of a response from me. I'm not a Winfield. I

870
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 4: know who I am, and I don't need anything from him,

871
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 4: whether it be an apology, whether it be I still

872
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 4: don't believe your mind. I'm complete. If anything that he's

873
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 4: reaching out for is something that's going to benefit him,

874
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 4: whether it be emotionally, mentally, whatever that's on him, I'm

875
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 4: blessed he's not in my life.

876
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 2: Do you have any anger towards.

877
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 4: I don't have anything toward him except oh my god,

878
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 4: I've got to grab my hair. And that is just

879
00:59:55,320 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 4: purely for my mum. Obviously, I'm not the most girliest

880
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 4: of girls you've ever come across, and Mum is and

881
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 4: was a very girly girl. She was very glamorous in

882
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 4: the seventies, you know, very petite and beautiful with gorgeous

883
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 4: blond hair. Nothing like me. When I saw him on

884
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 4: the front page of the paper, I was like, you

885
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,959
Speaker 4: can't deny. You're going to look like a fool. Every

886
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 4: time I walked into a room up until I was thirty,

887
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 4: my mother would be like, oh my god, it's so

888
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 4: much like him. When I told my wife over lunches

889
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 4: today that I was catching up with you today, and

890
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 4: she said, oh my god, I've got goosebumps, I said,

891
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 4: I do you think I should pre warn Headley, he's

892
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 4: going to feel like he's sitting opposite John. The resemblance

893
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 4: is uncanny. There literally is nothing. I don't like him.

894
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 4: I don't dislike him. I don't respect him. I don't

895
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 4: disrespect him. He's just a guy I saw on the

896
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 4: front page of the newspaper for the first time four

897
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 4: months ago, who happened to get my mother pregnant. That's

898
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 4: all he is to me. He'll never be my dad.

899
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 4: He'll never be my father, will never be mates, will

900
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 4: never sit down and have a copper together. I will

901
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 4: never break bread with him, purely because my grandmother would

902
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 4: be disgusted in me if I did.

903
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 2: From everything I've been told about John, he's extraordinarily tight

904
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 2: with money. He would possibly be concerned that any acknowledgment

905
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 2: by him of your existence could reduce the wealth that

906
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,919
Speaker 2: he has and the estate that he has.

907
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 4: It's always about money with Winfield. Grandma always said that,

908
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 4: and in nineteen seventy two it was about eleven dollars

909
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 4: a week or seventeen dollars a week or whatever. In

910
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four it's about ocean front estates. I remember

911
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 4: Grandma saying something along the lines of eleven dollars seventeen

912
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 4: dollars per week that they didn't want to have to

913
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 4: pay for you to.

914
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 2: Be As you listen to the story with the knowledge

915
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 2: that the person at the center of it, the person

916
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 2: suspected by police and read family of having murdered Promin,

917
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 2: knowing that he's your father, are you affected?

918
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 4: I don't think of him as my father. I've managed

919
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 4: to successfully be unaffected by it. As I said, I

920
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 4: feel for.

921
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 2: Crystal, there seems to be still a curiosity in you,

922
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:49,520
Speaker 2: because otherwise why would you be listening to it.

923
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 4: Back when I was in ballin a police station, I

924
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 4: didn't understand why I was there, but I also left

925
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:02,959
Speaker 4: there thinking this is going to be finished off soon.

926
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 2: Would love me to show you some of the start

927
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 2: of that documentary. Referring to yes please, I started to

928
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 2: make a point apparently your dad's sorry, I shouldn't callim

929
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:19,920
Speaker 2: your dad Sonya's face changed, she appeared uncomfortable and excused

930
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 2: herself to go to the bathroom.

931
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:24,919
Speaker 4: Just threw me a bit before when you said your dad.

932
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 4: Of course he's not and it will never be. No

933
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 4: one's actually said those words ever before your you know,

934
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 4: But I yeah, sorry about that I understand. Yeah, that's okay.

935
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 4: I'm happy if that helps you in any way with

936
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 4: your investigations. It's actually really nice to know that my

937
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:56,240
Speaker 4: grandmother's eye for detail was so detailed when my mom

938
01:03:56,400 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 4: was that young. There's photos of me and my mom,

939
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 4: and some of those photos are very very similar to

940
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:11,440
Speaker 4: photos I've got on your website of Bridman and the

941
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 4: girls when the girls were young. I have a very

942
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 4: similar photo and it's like, oh.

943
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 2: My God, like.

944
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 4: Thank you, Goma, But it could have been me and

945
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 4: my mom. I think she was spot on with the

946
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 4: controlling and the dominating.

947
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 2: What would you say to Lauren, Crystal and Jodi about

948
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 2: their beliefs and what they've been.

949
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 4: Told, even if they deep down inside, no, the answer

950
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:47,640
Speaker 4: is going to hurt them. Ask the question anyway. Jody's

951
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 4: coming up to an age where she's going to, whether

952
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 4: she likes it or not, biologically, start questioning things. As

953
01:04:57,080 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 4: you're coming up to fifty and you're going through menopause

954
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 4: and everything, think inside dey's changing, and you can have

955
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 4: the lowest of lows and the highest of highs. And

956
01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:12,920
Speaker 4: if there's a time in her life where she's wondering

957
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 4: what the true answers to the questions are this is

958
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 4: the time where she should lighten her load, just be open.

959
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 4: There's a level of dishonesty, whether it's the story of

960
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:31,160
Speaker 4: whatever happened to Bronwyn, whether it's the story of John

961
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 4: Winfield and his life, that it just seems to get

962
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 4: these extra levels of layers of unbelievable things on top

963
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 4: of them. The girls should just be allowed to know

964
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 4: their truths.

965
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 2: You said before that you were very hopeful there would

966
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 2: be a good outcome. What do you believe is a

967
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 2: good outcome.

968
01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 4: For the girls? Then? What happened to Bronwyn, the good,

969
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:06,200
Speaker 4: the bad, the ugly, whatever it may be, they deserve

970
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 4: to know. It's got to be the heaviest load for

971
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 4: them to carry.

972
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 2: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

973
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:32,360
Speaker 2: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

974
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 2: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

975
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 2: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

976
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 2: You can read more about this case and see a

977
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 2: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn

978
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 2: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

979
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 2: The production and editorial team for bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

980
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 2: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

981
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 2: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray.

982
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 2: Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio

983
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 2: and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been

984
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:26,880
Speaker 2: assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromin Winfield. We

985
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 2: can only do this kind of journalism with the support

986
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:33,920
Speaker 2: of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman.

987
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 2: For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and

988
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 2: documents about this podcast and other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet,

989
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 2: The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy

990
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:52,400
Speaker 2: and The Night Driver. Go to the Australian dot com

991
01:07:52,440 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 2: dot au and subscribe