1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: They can explain the lousy paperwork, the lousy database. They 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: can blame the nameless, faceless contractors for stuffing everything up. 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: If you leave officers and public servants in charge of. 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: Property as they call it in the police. 5 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: Force, specifically in charge of guns, drugs or cash, there 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: is always the change that human nature being what it is, 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: that the rats might start to nibble at the property, 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: the rats in the ranks. I'm Andrew Ruhle, and this 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: is life and crimes. We often circle back to the 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: subject of guns. We mentioned them the other day in 11 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,639 Speaker 1: regards to an old time heist of handguns in South Melbourne. 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: But I have to say that some things don't go 13 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: out of fashion, and that crooks have been keen on 14 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: pinching guns, obtaining guns, buying guns on the black market, 15 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: selling guns, and using guns and waving them around it 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: other people since about the time of the gold rushers 17 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: at the very least, and nothing much has changed. Despite 18 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: the fact that we now have pretty tough laws about 19 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: all guns, especially handguns, it has not hosed down the 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: enthusiasm among some people for owning them or obtaining them 21 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: without the requisite licenses and so forth, and that has 22 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: led to a situation where gun dealers come under pretty 23 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: justified scrutiny because obviously there are a lot of gun 24 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: dealers out there. Some of them will be known to 25 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: potential gun thieves, some of them will be known to 26 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: criminals who want to obtain black market weapons. Some of 27 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: them will be known as gunsmith's or useful people at 28 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: repairing guns so that people can bring guns to them 29 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: to repair, and so on and so forth. So we've 30 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: got a situation which, to some extent has been open 31 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: to exploitation by some elements. It would appear, according to 32 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: some people, that wroughts and alleged raughts happen on both 33 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: sides of the law. And so I'm going to tell 34 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: a story here that has been published in some form 35 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: in the Herald's sun. If it's proven that seized and 36 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: surrendered guns and ammunition have quote vanished unquote from Victoria 37 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: Police's grungy storage warehouse in the north somewhere, it won't 38 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: be a surprise. The public has heard similar scandals before, 39 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: such as the disgraceful episode in which Bent detectives stole 40 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: seized drugs and precursor chemicals from a police storage unit 41 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: to sell to favorite criminals Back in the nineteen nineties. 42 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: That racket ended when a straight drug squad detective blew 43 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: the whistle on a bunch of crooks, but it cost 44 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: him his career and his peace of mind before the 45 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: law finally moved against rogue cops, the real rats in 46 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: the ranks. Dedicated listeners will recall that that straight drug 47 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: squad detective who is a man who came in here 48 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: and spoke to us at some length, and his name 49 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: is Lochlan McCullough. 50 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:21,519 Speaker 2: We did a whole series with him. 51 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: One fat rat, thieving detective Kevin Hicks, was jailed and 52 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: some slippery characters quietly moved on to the quiet relief 53 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: of relatively on US colleagues. One of the slippery set, 54 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: the man known. 55 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: To other cops as Grave Deed, was. 56 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: Publicly named after a Beretta undercover pistol went missing from 57 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: a drawer in the drug squad. And when we say 58 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: an undercover pistol, we made a pistol probably unregistered and 59 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: not police issue, a pistol used by detectives when they 60 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: are as drug dealers or criminals. So it obviously has 61 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: to be not a police issue weapon. It has to 62 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: be an orphan something that looks if a crook had it, 63 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: and the undercover coppers would use that when they're out 64 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: and about pretending. 65 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 2: To be dirty, filthy crooks. 66 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: Okay, that pistol mysteriously disappeared and then mysteriously reappeared when 67 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: the alarm was raised. 68 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 2: But grave deed decided. 69 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 1: To resign, as did another officer subsequently charged over serious offenses. 70 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: The allure of stray guns, especially pistols, has been around 71 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: as long as police have. They seem to bring out 72 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 1: the dirty Harry in the mildest of public servants. One 73 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: next detective told me his crew took a contraband pen 74 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: pistol from a drug squad draw and made sure it 75 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: was found in the draws as in knickers of Cath Petengil, 76 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: remember her, that is Granny Evil, or the Montriarch as 77 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: she's called. And that caused poor old cat quite a 78 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: bit of grief, and it caused the drug squad quite 79 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: a bit of amusement. That's not the sort of throwaway 80 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: story that amuses Kel Glare, who is, of course, as 81 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: older listeners will know, the former Chief Commissioner of Police 82 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: in Victoria. Cops don't come much straight than Kel Glare, 83 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: who after becoming the chief in nineteen eighty seven, campaigned 84 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: against corruption in his five years in the top job, 85 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: and he's now taken a stand against the way police 86 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: apparently mishandled hundreds of seized and surrendered guns. Glare's statement 87 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: about police actions and inaction over custody of firearms and 88 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: ammunition at the force's gun storage throws a spotlight on 89 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: what some see as a shady corner of police work. 90 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: As Chief kell Glare oversaw a big cleanup overdue since 91 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: the days when sp book makers, abortions, sly groggers and 92 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: all the rest of it had half the police force 93 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: in their pocket, a situation that set the scene for 94 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: serious corruption in crime squads and red light districts because 95 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: back in the bad old days, listens squads like the 96 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: robbery Squad, the consorting Squad, the major Crime Squad, and 97 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: districts like Saint Kilda in particular Paran around that area 98 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: windsor Paran Corfield to some extent, those districts had a 99 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: high percentage of offenders, a high percentage of prostitution, stolen 100 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: goods receivers, pawn shops, et cetera. And because they had 101 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: more crooks per square meter. They had more crooked cops 102 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: per square meter. Kel Glare was one of a new 103 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: breed of dedicated and educated officers who conceded that police 104 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: should be rotated through the squads and through the districts 105 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: where temptation was high. Except for the greatly respected Mick Miller, 106 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: Glare's predecessors and some of his contemporaries had tolerated a 107 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: brotherhood of police who let petty corruption flourish and turned 108 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: a blind eye to serious breaches of the law, even 109 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: if they kept their own snouts out of the trough. 110 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: So what he's driving at is that some coppers who 111 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: didn't actually pinch guns or money or whatever, weren't actually 112 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: running brothels on the side or silent goods rackets themselves, 113 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: they turned a blind eye to other police doing it 114 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: because that was the brotherhood system, where you never dobbed 115 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: in a fellow copper. In much the same ways ladies 116 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: and gentlemen, jockeys don't die been other jockeys. It's very similar. 117 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: Coppers and jockeys are more staunch than most crooks. We've 118 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: said this before because it's true during and after Calglare's timers, 119 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: Chief the drug Squad, the Licensing, Gaming and Vice Squad, 120 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: and the once notorious armed Robbers came under stricter management. 121 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: This resulted in a few prosecutions and a few sudden resignations, 122 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: often for alleged medical reasons. Back in the good old days, 123 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: they would say that so and so has been boarded out, 124 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: as in the medical Board has said that that officer 125 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: can leave the force because of an illness that prevents 126 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: them from serving. And that was a way for an 127 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: officer who's under a cloud to leave with their pension, 128 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: with their superannuation, whatever, whatever, and without a black mark 129 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 1: on their record. It would get them out of the 130 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: police force, away from temptation, and would get rid of them. 131 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: So the Medical Board was often used as a weapon 132 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: to get rid of unwanted coppers without a scandal. Now 133 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: there was another new broom chief commissioner. We all remember 134 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: this one interstate apportee. She was Christine Nixon. Now, I 135 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: thought Christine Nixon wasn't a bad stick myself, but I 136 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: know that there was a lot of resentment of her, 137 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: mainly probably because she came from Sydney. I think Victorian 138 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: coppers didn't like the idea of a Sydney sider an 139 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: interstate coming in and taking over as chief. There would 140 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: have been several assistant commissioners and so forth, deputies and 141 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 1: things down here. 142 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 2: Who thought they should have got the job. 143 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: They resented any outside appointment, whether it was from Sydney 144 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: or London or Glasgow or wherever. Some of them, being 145 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: old fashioned and pigheaded, might have resented the fact that 146 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: a woman got the job, because it was then a 147 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: rare thing for women to get the job of being 148 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: head of a police force. But Christine Nixon came down 149 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: without any baggage. She didn't have to protect any of 150 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: her old mates because she didn't have any in Victoria. 151 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: She'd come up through the system in New South Wales. 152 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: Anybody she knew and liked or knew and hated, they 153 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: were back there in Sydney, not here. So she came 154 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: in with a clean slate, and for better or worse, 155 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: she was able to talk to a whole range of 156 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: people about who might have been naughty in the Victorian 157 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: police and who might have been nice. And she would 158 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: have taken on board the advice of various people, not 159 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: sure who those people were, but she could consult people 160 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: widely and get certain advice about certain squads and certain 161 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: individuals in certain squads and in certain places, such as 162 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: he aforesaid, some killed her and Paran and so on, 163 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: and possibly you know, Foot's Gray and Preston and other places. Now, 164 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: Christine Nixon did quite a lot of things, and there's 165 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: no doubt she made the police force much more welcoming 166 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: towards minorities, you know, gender, sexuality and all that stuff. 167 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: She was a bit of a rainbow promoting chief commissioner, 168 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: and that was good in many ways, although it did 169 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: bring her into sort of conflict and ridicule with some 170 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: of her own people, who thought might have been better 171 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: to concentrate on catching crooks, you know, instead of leading 172 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: the gay pride march or whatever. But she did it 173 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: her way, and in many ways she might have been right. 174 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: It's hard to know. Nixon probably these days would have 175 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: been called someone who was semi woke. But her wokeness, 176 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: such as it was, did not extend to waking up 177 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 1: a very sleepy police backwater that went on just as 178 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: inefficiently as it ever had. That backwater, of course, was 179 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: the corner of the police force that looked after registering 180 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: and licensing guns and gun dealers, and this was an 181 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: area that had rusted on offices and public servants trusted 182 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 1: for many years with storing a rising tide of seized 183 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: unsurrendered firearms. Now let's just make a point here. If 184 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: you leave people in the mounted squad, the people that 185 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: ride horses, that makes sense because these people are horse people. 186 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: They have handled the police horses, they have trained the 187 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: police forces. They are experts at what they do. They 188 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: can train other younger people on the way through, etc. 189 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 2: Etc. 190 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: You would tend to leave some mounted police in their 191 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: own job because they're good at it and they're unlikely 192 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: to become corrupted by riding police forces. They're probably not 193 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: going to steal the oats. 194 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: Or the boot polish. 195 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: But if you leave officers and public servants in charge 196 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: of property as they call it in the police force, 197 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: specifically in charge of guns, drugs, or cash, there is 198 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: always the chance that human nature being what it is, 199 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: that the rats might start to nibble at the property. 200 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: The rats and the ranks. Now parallel thing happens here. 201 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: There were gun amnesties, plenty of them after the Hodel 202 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: Street massacre of nineteen eighty seven, and it was pretty 203 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: clear at that time that if you found or had 204 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: under your bed or under the floor in the ceilings 205 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 1: some old gun that dad or granddad or somebody else 206 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: had left there, that you could actually wander into a 207 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: police station handed in, no questions asked. It was a 208 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: bit of a given. And indeed a lot of guns. 209 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: There was a strong trickle of guns coming into police 210 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: stations for a long time after the Hottle Street massacre 211 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: of eighty seven. And that's one reason that the old 212 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: property store that used to be in the corner of 213 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:24,239 Speaker 1: the Russell Street Police complex had to be eventually replaced 214 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: with the bigger premises elsewhere. Now that bigger premises, without 215 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: telling everybody out there where it is, it's in a 216 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: nearby postcode not that far from the old Russell Street 217 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: Police complex, but you know, a good long walk, a 218 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: decent walk sort of to the north somewhere. And that 219 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: new premises was not particularly new. It was a big 220 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: old s gungeygrungjy grotty red brick warehouse built I'd say 221 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: around the time of World War One. I would think, well, 222 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: look at it. Lots of graffiti, lots of pigeon manure, 223 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: lots of mold and a nasty stuff like that. It 224 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: looks very unloved on the outside. Apart from the fact 225 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: that there are quite. 226 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: Good security CCTV security. 227 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: Cameras on that building and lighting and things, you probably 228 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: wouldn't know that. It was allegedly a highly secure property 229 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: branch where virtually all seized weapons, guns and other weapons 230 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: and some other property is kept by the police force. 231 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: But the licensing branch, as they're called, there's a word 232 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: for them, and apart from those seized weapons which are 233 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: sent out to McLeod to the forensic branch, they go 234 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: through ceased weapons and they say, oh, we'll keep this 235 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: one because we don't have an example of that particular 236 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: one in our reference library. So they get a rare, 237 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, nineteen forty eight man and lick up whatever 238 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: it is. They'll say, we haven't got one of those. 239 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: We'll keep that in our reference library. We will get 240 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: some ammunition for it, and we will shoot test shots 241 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: so that we know what sort of rifling it's got, 242 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, so that in the event that 243 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: someone uses such a weapon in a crime, the police 244 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: at the ballistics branch can identify a wide range of weapons. 245 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: Great idea a firearms library. But if they don't need 246 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: another entry for their library, if they've already got examples 247 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: of things, they are then supposed to sign off on 248 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: them for destruction. Otherwise, seized weapons seem to be piled 249 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: up at this property store. Now there's a lot of 250 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: conjecture about what is seized and what isn't and why 251 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: it's there. 252 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: But there are quite. 253 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: A lot of gun dealers and former gun dealers in 254 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: Victoria that are very perturbed and agitated about some of 255 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: the things that happened to their property, to their property 256 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: that was seized, and also to guns that were seized 257 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: that didn't belong to the dealers but belonged to members 258 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: of the public. And so we've got a situation where 259 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: you're a small gun dealer in Bandy Wallop in Oyon 260 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: or Wendaree or Hamilton or wherever. And there were many 261 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: dozens of these small time dealers. 262 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: They'd deal with local shooters. 263 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: Farmers, so on. They became targeted back in the early 264 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: two thousands because the licensing branch, rightly or wrongly, decided 265 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: that those people were potentially the sort of people who 266 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: might leak weapons firearms into the community and into the underworld. 267 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: Now in some cases that would be right. This led 268 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: to a series of raids, and it's those raids that 269 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: are of interest to us today. 270 00:17:58,640 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: That trickle of. 271 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: Surrender and seized firearms became a flood after the Port 272 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 1: Arthur massacre of nineteen ninety six. So in eighty seven 273 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 1: we've got Julian Knight and Hoddlestraet. Nine years later we've 274 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: got Port Arthur. And that changed things, cranked it up 275 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: to a new level, because then we didn't just have amnesties. 276 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: The laws were changed about guns that legit licensed owners 277 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: and shooters could have. 278 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 2: The laws were. 279 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: Changed to say that unless you had a special reason 280 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: and a special license, no ordinary sporting shooter or farmer 281 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: or whatever could have a semi automatic weapon. And this 282 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: meant that overnight, with the stroke of a pen, thousands 283 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: of firearms across Victoria, many of them on farms and someone, 284 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: became illegal for their owners, the legal owners to own them. 285 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: Or to possess them. 286 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: They could own them, but they couldn't have them, they 287 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: couldn't keep them in their possession. So all these thousands 288 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: of newly outlawed semi automatics were compulsorly acquired for destruction. 289 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: The temporary dealerships were sent up centers where people could 290 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: bring guns in. They would have dealers price se that's 291 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: a BSA five shot data DA, that's worth two hundred 292 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: and fifty bucks. Here's your check, and so on and 293 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: so on, and so they would do that, and in 294 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: the end the authorities had thousands and thousands and thousands 295 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: of these newly outlawed semi automatics. Not only that, the 296 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: public mood because of Port Arthur had swung in many 297 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: ways against gun ownership, and people that have been neutral 298 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: about guns had tolerated having guns around the place, as 299 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: most people did. When I was a kid, Nearly everybody 300 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: had a shot gun or twenty two. And now again 301 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,239 Speaker 1: in granddadd had go shooting ducks and so and so 302 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: were goo shooting rabbits or whatever. That sort of gun 303 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: behind the kitchen door thing died out in a big 304 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: way post Port Arthur, and a lot of people who 305 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: had never worried about it or thought about it much said, right, 306 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: that's it, we're just handing in guns. We don't need 307 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: them in the house anymore. And they took them in 308 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: and handed them in, and so these collection points were 309 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: overwhelmed with firearms. 310 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 2: All sorts of firearms. 311 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: Now, all sorts of funny things were handed in, not 312 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: just all those old shotguns on twenty two's and fairly 313 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: standard things, all three to zero three army rifles another staple, 314 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: but quite exotic stuff. There'd be handguns that you know, 315 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: Granddad brought it home from the bollwar, Webley pistol, so 316 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: and so brought home a colt. A lot of World 317 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: War One soldiers particularly had brought home Luger pistols from 318 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: the battlefields of Europe. I knew one family in Gippsland 319 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: where I think a couple of them went off to 320 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: the war, and they brought home seven lugers and they 321 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: used to use them shooting rabbits and kangaroos around the 322 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: property and hello. 323 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: To you, mister Lee. 324 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: It was a thing. And now most of those guns 325 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: are being handed in now. They were really supposed to 326 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: be going. 327 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 2: To the crushes. All these were such to go. 328 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: To these massive crushes and be melted down and turned 329 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: into scrap metal, and indeed many of. 330 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 2: Them probably were. 331 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: But the reality is that not every surrendered gun was destroyed, 332 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: because not all reached the warehouse in the first place choice. 333 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: Weapons with high collector value or black market value fell 334 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: through the many cracks in the system, and of the 335 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: vanloads of guns that reached the big warehouse near the 336 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: city in a nearby postcode, not all seas firearms kept secure, 337 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: with shrinkage occurring during a painfully slow and clumsy bureaucratic 338 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: process to determine if or when their legal owners should 339 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 1: get them back. What I'm saying is that you know, 340 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: three thousand firearms might go into the warehouse in January 341 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: and after several months there might be two eight hundred 342 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: and fifty left that there've been shrinkage. Now, this happens 343 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: in warehouses and shops and pubs across the land. It's 344 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,479 Speaker 1: amazing what goes walking. It goes out the door, it 345 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: goes out in people's pants, it goes out in people's 346 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: sports bags. It's amazing how things vanish. And also the parts. 347 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: The magazines assailable because people want another magazine. The sites 348 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,120 Speaker 1: are telescopic, sites are sailable because people want them. The 349 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: barrels or the gun butts or all the different parts assailable. 350 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: And so a lot of these weapons that were there 351 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: would be getting cannibalized by someone and would vanish. 352 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 2: Out the back door. It's possible over. 353 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: Being sold, it's possible being given away. It's possible that 354 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: aliens or fairies took them. It's hard to know, but 355 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: there's no doubt that there was shrinkage. Now, as highlighted 356 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: by kel Glare's detailed statement which he made for a 357 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: forthcoming court case, this was a porous and very broken system. 358 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: And that system created the opportunity for the pilfering of 359 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: the guns, the ammunition, the parts with the perfect smother, 360 00:23:54,280 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: the perfect cover in fact, that any shortfalls can be 361 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: dismissed with a blanket excuse that it's been mislaid or 362 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: it's unaccounted for, when the real truth it's probably been stolen. 363 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: The system is so lousy, the labeling system is nonexistent, 364 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: the computerized database is so hopeless that it's impossible for 365 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: anyone to say with certainty what is and isn't in 366 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: the warehouse at any one time. And one of the 367 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: reasons for this, and I've actually seen these computerized records, 368 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: one of the reasons is that they had contract inputters, 369 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: people who are keyboard contractors, and they would be sitting 370 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: there and they would look at a reference to say 371 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: one BSA three zero three army rifle, BSA being Birmingham 372 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: small Arms, the maker of that particular rifle. That rifle 373 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: could be described on one line as a BSA three three. 374 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: On another line, the same rifle could come up as 375 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: a lee endfield a straight an army rifle. On another one, 376 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: the same rifle could be described in a slightly different 377 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: way each time and bolt action, ten shot, whatever. And 378 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: I've actually seen these documents. What we've got is a 379 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: situation where, for argument's sake, you've got one hundred firearms, 380 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: but when you print out the list describing one hundred firearms, 381 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: it's got a list of five hundred firearms. Because our 382 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: contract keystrokers have either made an innocent mistake or have 383 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: decided that they get paid by the keystroke and they 384 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: have just kept inputting whatever they liked. And this has 385 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: created a monstrous stuff up of the database that is 386 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: controlling the system. And that means basically there is no system. 387 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: And that means that because the people running it can't 388 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: really put their finger on any particular thing, they know 389 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: it's very hard to prove if anything is there or 390 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: not there, and if something is missing, they know that 391 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: their own lousy records will cover that fact up. They 392 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: can just blame the lousy computer. They can just blame 393 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: the lousy paperwork, the lousy database. They can blame the nameless, 394 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: faceless contractors for stuffing everything up. And this has left 395 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: open the opportunity for more shrinkage, for more guns, ammunition, 396 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: magazines and gun parts to vanish from the police's own warehouse. 397 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: It's a very serious situation. But this shrinkage of guns 398 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: and ammo that I've just described is only part of 399 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: the picture. That's the known shrinkage. What we've also got 400 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: here is the unknowns. And the unknowns are the seized 401 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: and surrendered guns that vanished before they were ever recorded 402 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: in the first place. Now shooters call unregistered guns orphans. 403 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: There are many stories of orphans turning into ghosts at 404 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: police stations all over Victoria, and I'm here to say 405 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,719 Speaker 1: no doubt, all over Australia, there are many stories of 406 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: receipts not being issued at all to people handing in guns, 407 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: or being deliberately mishandled and manipulated to obscure the truth. 408 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: And I now proposed to give some examples of this. 409 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: In twenty thirteen, the Police Licensing and the Registration Division 410 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: raided dozens of small gun dealers across Victoria, many of 411 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: them regional or outer suburban specialists dealing from home. Four 412 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: of the police targets were around Gelong. One of those 413 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: was a dealer called Phil Walter. Now Phil is apparently 414 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: a former Army marksman working from home in. 415 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 2: The suburb of Caio. And I've actually. 416 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: Been to his house, sat in his living room with 417 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: his wife and himself and a third person who's involved 418 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: in sort of a pro shooter political lobby group. And 419 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 1: Phil Walter told me recently that the officers who raided 420 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: his place and many these other places, they took one 421 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty eight guns that he had in his 422 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: strong room. 423 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 2: Now, some of these were stock for sale. They were 424 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 2: his stock that he sold with price. 425 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: Tags on them, and others were not belonging to him 426 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: at all and were not for sale. They belonged to 427 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: private owners who'd put them in for repair or were 428 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: storing them for safe keeping. They also took he says, 429 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: three hundred thousand rounds of ammunition. Now that's a lot 430 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: of ammo, worth a lot of money. But you know, 431 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: he had the stock, and he used to keep it 432 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: and sell it, including he says, some rare and valuable collectibles. 433 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: And he showed me one of these, such as empty 434 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: Turkish Mauser rifle shells that a relative of his wife 435 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: had brought back from fighting at Gallipoli in nineteen fifteen. 436 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: And what these were Mauses, of course, or a German weapon, 437 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: I think, or European weapon. But the Turks actually made 438 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: a version of the Mauser, and they made their own 439 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: ammunition for their version of the Mauser, which they used 440 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: in World War One at Gallipoli. And they were very 441 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: short of brass, and so they were supposed to keep 442 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: all their empty brass, their empty cartridge shells, and send 443 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: them back to the quartermaster, who would then get them 444 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: reloaded and they'd use them again. That fact accounts for 445 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: their scarcity. That they didn't leave them lying around, they 446 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: didn't get dropped on the ground, but a few of 447 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: them got thrown at the Allies, at the Aussies and 448 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: the English and so on, because even in nineteen fifteen, 449 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: some people saw the advantage of biological warfare, and so 450 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: they would put excrement inside these empty bulletshells and throw them. 451 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: The few fifty meters across to the opposing trenches and 452 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: land them into trench and hope that the germs carried 453 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: in those excremental empty shells, which were not empty of 454 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: course by this stage, would infect the opposing troops with 455 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: dysentery and whatever other diseases that they had. And there 456 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: was a very ham fisted and crew would attempt at 457 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: biological warfare. But it was a real thing. And Phil 458 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: Walter says that his wife's uncle, I think it was 459 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: fighting at Gallipoli. He was interested in guns and so forth. 460 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: He had retrieved some of these shells and washed them 461 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: out in the seashore at Gillipoli and brought them home 462 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: and there were I don't know a dozen of them 463 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: or whatever, and they were taken along with all the 464 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: other ammunition and these one hundred and thirty eight guns. 465 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: And he and his wife are particularly savage about that, 466 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: because he clearly empty shells. They have no danger to anyone, 467 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: but they claim that they are worth a lot of money, 468 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: a lot of money. They're claiming very big money. 469 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: As collectibles, because there are people who loved. 470 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: Collecting World War One and Boar War and Civil war memorabilia. 471 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: So Phil Walter is particularly savage about what happened to him. 472 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: He says, of the one hundred and thirty eight guns seized, 473 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: the police recorded details of only fifty six, implying he 474 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: says that all or most of the rest are unaccounted for. 475 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: He says that now more than ten years later, of 476 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: the one hundred and thirty eight guns seized, he can only. 477 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 2: Track about fifty of the fifty six that. 478 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: Were written down. He said, the rest no one knows 479 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: where the rest are. He's very angry about it. He 480 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: has produced documents which have been used in Firearms Appeals 481 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: Committee in legal proceedings, and he's shown them to us 482 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: which shows that those fifty six firearms, the fifty six 483 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: that were written down by the police, have been released 484 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: released in quote marks to another gun dealer to resell 485 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: to the public. What he's saying is the police came 486 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: in here in twenty thirteen. They took a heap my 487 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: guns and guns belonging to my customers, but I didn't 488 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: own at all here for repair or whatever. They took 489 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: them away to Melbourne and put them in a warehouse, 490 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: and fifty six of them they've given them to another 491 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,719 Speaker 1: gun dealer to sell and the ones that haven't been 492 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: given to another gun dealer to sell. They can't tell 493 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: me where they are or what's happened to them, and 494 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: he's very angry about it. Now, we're not going to 495 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: chase every rabbit down every burrow here, but suffice to 496 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: say that there are examples with sworn statements where shooters 497 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: license shooters who had guns lodged with Phil Walter in 498 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: his strong room. This particular shooter had one brand new 499 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: one there and one in for repair. They have just 500 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: vanished off the face of the earth. No one knows 501 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: what happened to them, except that it's likely they've been 502 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: resold somehow, because they. 503 00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 2: Are both. 504 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: Caliber rifles, which are very much sought after by fox 505 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: shooters and rabbit shooters and sort of vermin shooters, so 506 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: they're very saleable and people want them. And it seems 507 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: highly likely that those weapons have been illegally unsold and 508 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: the legitimate owner has been. 509 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 2: Deprived of them. 510 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: They have effectively been stolen from him by officers of 511 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: the law. This would seem to be not a good thing. Now. 512 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: In closing, we could go on and on about this, 513 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: but I have to say that every second shooter you 514 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: meet has anecdotal evidence or anecdotal stories of strange transactions 515 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: about surrendered guns, especially handguns, but not only handguns. One 516 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: blog I told me that in the big post Port 517 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: Arthur surrender he saw a very unusual thing. An elephant 518 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: gun had been handed in at a northern suburban police station, 519 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: in fact, it was Preston police station. He says it 520 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: was a highly unusual weapon and that whoever was thought, 521 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: we won't crush this one. It's too good. And the 522 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: guy I know offered a small amount of money for it, 523 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: in one hundred and fifty bucks or whatever, to save 524 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: its life sort of thing. And it didn't go to 525 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: the crusher, But it also did not go to my contact. 526 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: It went to a third person. That someone working at 527 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: that police station at that time sold it to someone 528 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: else for another fifty dollars, and that it went out 529 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: the back door with some other person who wanted to 530 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 1: collect that elephant gun and put it on the den. 531 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 2: Wall or whatever. 532 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: Now that is just one example of hundreds, without doubt, 533 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: where the guns handed in by bona fide citizens thinking 534 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: that they are going. 535 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 2: To be destroyed, I suppose. 536 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: Or at least sold on the open market elsewhere in 537 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: the world. Perhaps were actually dropped in a bag at 538 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: the feet of the hervers accepting it and sold out 539 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: the back door, or given away to friends, or taken 540 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: home by someone working in that place. Another example. And 541 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: I know this to be a fact because I know 542 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 1: all the people involved, I know them personally. Nineteen ninety 543 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: five respected retired businessman a man called Alan Cresa. He 544 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: asked the local police to visit his house at Painsil 545 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: in Gippsland to pick up some guns that have been 546 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: in his family for decades. He had three handguns, among 547 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: other things, World War one revolver, tiny snubnose thirty two 548 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: caliber revolver that his father used to use when he 549 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: banked money and back in the nineteen thirties, and a 550 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,240 Speaker 1: twenty two caliber Barretta pistol, which is a reletively modern 551 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: weapon and quite sought after. A very light weight, accurate 552 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: and reliable thing that people like to own now. Two 553 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: police officers responded to the call, a male and a female, 554 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: and they came to his house at Paincil. He gave 555 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,439 Speaker 1: them the handguns and he asked for a receipt. He 556 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: was a man of about. 557 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 2: Eighty years old at this stage. 558 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: They made vague excuses and promised to mail him the receipt. No, no, 559 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: we haven't got our pen, and we haven't got our book, 560 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: or it's in the car, or it's in the boot, 561 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: or you know, we'll mail it to you when we 562 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: get back. 563 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 2: To the office. They didn't. 564 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: When a younger adult relative of Allan Cresa visited shortly afterwards, 565 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,359 Speaker 1: he said, decrease of where's that, Bretta. I was very 566 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: keen to get that because I've now got my pistol 567 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: license and I could take it over or buy it 568 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: from me whatever. You could give it to me and 569 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: I can use it at the pistol club to shoot targets. 570 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: And the old man said, oh, oh you want it, okay, 571 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: no problem. You go to that police station which is 572 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,720 Speaker 1: not far from here, and you asked them, you explain 573 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: the situation, identify yourself, identify me. He's my driver's license. 574 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: Whatever you want, you'll be able to get it. The 575 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: younger relative, a young man who was a merchant seaman 576 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: at the time later became a ship's captain, quite a 577 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: respectable sort of fellow, and he had a legitimate pistol 578 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,959 Speaker 1: license to target shirt. He goes to this police station 579 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 1: to retrieve the surrendered pistol, which has only been there 580 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: for a few days. He's never forgotten what happened. When 581 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: he got there. 582 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 2: He was told bare faced lies. He was told that he. 583 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: Was imagining three surrendered pistols. He was told that they 584 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 1: didn't exist, and that if he couldn't produce a receipt 585 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: for them that proved that they didn't exist. They told 586 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: him he was making it up or he was hallucinating. 587 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: Now he was very angry about this because he wasn't 588 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,359 Speaker 1: making it up and he wasn't illucinating. He insisted on 589 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: seeing the senior officer in charge. The officer came out, 590 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: Now this is I think an inspector, and he had, 591 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: you know, the pips on the shoulder, and he backed 592 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 1: up his staff's attitude, in fact, his staff's bald faced lies. 593 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: And he flatly denied that Alan Creas's pistols had been 594 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,959 Speaker 1: handed in or that they existed. And when our would 595 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 1: be pistol shooters said he'd take it to police internal affairs. 596 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: The inspector turned nasty. He got very threatening and. 597 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 2: He said, let's see how that goes. 598 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: For you, sonny, And he was very snarling and he 599 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: stared down the fairly agitated young man who left. He 600 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: was suddenly nervous about possible repercussions if he persisted, and 601 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: he he did not report it to internal affairs because 602 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: he thought, I don't need the agro and clearly, while 603 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: I'm up here in a skips land away from everywhere else, 604 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 1: who knows what could happen. I'll just let it go now. 605 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: That young fellow in the mid nineties as it was, 606 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 1: went on to become a sea captain, and then he 607 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: ran his own very big sea pilot business, and then 608 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: he did very well, and he bought a property at 609 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: Mansfield and became a farmer, and then he became the 610 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 1: mayor of the Shire of Mansfield. So he is quite 611 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: a solid citizen today. He's still a sporting shooter. But 612 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: it still rankles very much what happened to him at 613 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:52,399 Speaker 1: a country police station in nineteen ninety five where he 614 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,479 Speaker 1: was told lies by police who colluded with each other 615 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: to steal three surrendered handguns. And think about it, those 616 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,439 Speaker 1: three handguns are out there somewhere. It depends where did 617 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,839 Speaker 1: they find their way back onto the black market? Were 618 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: they sold for cash to crooks in a pub or 619 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: to an alleged collector who on sooldom to crooks in 620 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 1: a pub. Are those weapons now sitting in a glove box, 621 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: or in the inside pocket or a holster of someone 622 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 1: who could use them against a laura abiding citizen or 623 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: even against the police. Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes 624 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: is a Sunday Herald Sun production for true crime Australia. 625 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: Our producer is Johnny Burton. For my columns, features and more, 626 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: go to Heraldsun dot com dot au forward slash andrew 627 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go to news podcasts 628 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: sold at news dot com dot au. That is all 629 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:11,280 Speaker 1: one word news podcasts sold And if you want further 630 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: information about this episode, links are in the description.