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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. This episode

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Speaker 1: was recorded live at the twenty twenty five South By

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Speaker 1: Southwest Conference at the Sydney International Convention Center. I co

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Speaker 1: hosted a session with Tracy. You might remember Tracy. She

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Speaker 1: appeared on I Catch Killers previously telling us about how

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Speaker 1: she became a victim of a notorious con man called

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Speaker 1: Hamish McLaren. Well, since that time, Tracy has made it

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Speaker 1: her business to be one step ahead of the scam artists.

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Speaker 1: In this highly informative conversation, Tracy tells us how people

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Speaker 1: can protect themselves and what to look out for. We

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Speaker 1: talked about the rise of AI driven scams, global cyber syndicates,

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Speaker 1: and modern fraud. It's quite frightening what she's got to say,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's well worth listening to. Okay, ladies

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Speaker 1: and gentlemen, we've been given the thumbs up, so we'll

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Speaker 1: get this underway. Good afternoon. Today Tracy and I will

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Speaker 1: be talking about an emerging crime trend. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: cyber security and some fascinating stories that Tracy's got, or

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Speaker 1: not stories, but insight into this global phenomenon. It's occurring

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Speaker 1: across all spaces where people are finding themselves victims of

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Speaker 1: AI driven fraud and scamsters. And there's no one in

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Speaker 1: this room that wouldn't be or potentially be affected by

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Speaker 1: this type of scamming and frauds. It's a changing world.

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Speaker 1: That's an evolving world, and that's what we're going to

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Speaker 1: be talking about today. Gary Jubilin's my name. I was

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Speaker 1: a major crime detective Chief Inspector with New South Wales

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Speaker 1: Police for thirty years and I spent twenty years as

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Speaker 1: a homicide detective. After leaving the police approximately five years ago,

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Speaker 1: I've working in the media, writing books and hosting a

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast called I Catch Killers. That's where I

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Speaker 1: first met Tracy, And I'm going to let Tracy introduce herself.

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Speaker 1: But Tracy came on the podcast as a guest and

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Speaker 1: she talked about how she was scammed in a despicable

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Speaker 1: crime of fraud that was committed upon her. But what

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Speaker 1: really impressed me about Tracy was how she responded to that.

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Speaker 1: And it's been a driving force for Tracy since that

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Speaker 1: time to learn about scammers, to learn about these fraudsters

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Speaker 1: and educate other people and prevent people from becoming a victim.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's an rapidly changing environment. And I

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Speaker 1: think what we're going to learn from Tracy today is

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Speaker 1: it's all listening to. So Tracy, do you want to

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about yourself?

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Speaker 2: Thanks? Gary.

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Speaker 3: For those who don't know this story, I met a

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Speaker 3: man on a dating app back in twenty sixteen, a

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Speaker 3: man by the name of Max Tavita, and he told

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Speaker 3: me he was a chief investment officer for a family office.

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Speaker 2: He lived in Bondai and.

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Speaker 3: We started an intimate, long term in real life relationship

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Speaker 3: that went on finily eighteen months. We took family holidays together,

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Speaker 3: we spent a lot of time together. And it wasn't

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Speaker 3: until about eighteen months later I woke up to a

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Speaker 3: Crime Stoppers video of an unidentified man being arrested outside

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Speaker 3: of his Bondi Beach apartment for swindling fifteen victims out

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Speaker 3: of seven point six million dollars. And that man was

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Speaker 3: my boyfriend, Max t Vita. Except it wasn't Max t Vita.

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Speaker 3: It was a man by the name of Hamish McLaren

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Speaker 3: and he happens to be one of the world's most

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Speaker 3: prolific comment So Hamish had stolen seven point six million

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Speaker 3: dollars from fifteen Australian victims. But the story actually first

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Speaker 3: broke in twenty nineteen when The Australian released the hip

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Speaker 3: podcast Who the Whole Is Hamish? I don't know if

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Speaker 3: anyone's heard of that yeah or listened to it, but

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Speaker 3: pretty much the investigative journalists that worked on that project

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Speaker 3: uncovered that Hamish had been at this crime for about

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Speaker 3: thirty years. He's never had another job, and he discovered

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Speaker 3: victims globally and estimates the amount of money that he's

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Speaker 3: stolen is around eighty to one hundred million dollars. So

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Speaker 3: Hamish was sentenced to sixteen years in pro for the

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Speaker 3: crimes he committed against the victims in Australia. It was

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Speaker 3: later reduced to twelve years with a non prog period

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Speaker 3: of nine years, and that nine years will be up

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Speaker 3: in July next year. So that's the short story, and.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you that's an abbreviated story. But when

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Speaker 1: Tracy explains the story and the podcast and a book

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Speaker 1: that's been out, it's interesting when you look back at hindsight.

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Speaker 1: I know when I spoke to the first spoke to

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Speaker 1: Tracy on the podcast, it was almost like this happened.

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Speaker 1: This happened. Red flags that you were embarrassed by, and

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Speaker 1: you're thinking, why didn't I see this? Why didn't I

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Speaker 1: see that? But that is with the benefit of hindsight,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 2: That's right?

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Speaker 1: And I think that's what we've got to be weary

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Speaker 1: of with the frauds and the type of schemes that

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about today, because the world

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Speaker 1: of crime is rapidly changing. Like back in the nineties,

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Speaker 1: the go to item for the bad guys was robbing banks,

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Speaker 1: robberies and stealing cash. The banks and the police woke

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Speaker 1: up to that and they made the targets harder, the banks,

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Speaker 1: better security, better systems in place, so that wasn't the

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Speaker 1: cash cow for the crooks. Then the drug syndicates evolved.

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Speaker 1: That was where to make money, and they're still making

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Speaker 1: a lot of money from drugs, but the borders are

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Speaker 1: getting harder and it's getting harder to make the money there.

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Speaker 1: Then we fall into this cyber type crime, the digital crime,

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Speaker 1: the AI driven the crime, and that's where the crooks

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Speaker 1: are operating now and we're all potentially victims to it.

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Speaker 1: And it's great to have someone like Tracy, and I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry what you went through, but as they say, you

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Speaker 1: know what, hard things that can forged in fire make

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Speaker 1: people stronger. We're fortunate that people like Tracy are really

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Speaker 1: actively looking at how we need to educate ourselves on

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Speaker 1: those type of crimes and how we need to prevent

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Speaker 1: these crimes from happening. But I can assure you no

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Speaker 1: one in this room's immune to the type of things

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Speaker 1: that we're going to be talking about. We can only

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Speaker 1: prepare ourselves a little bit better. So Tracy, just give

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Speaker 1: us a sort of macro view of what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here. When I talk digital crime, when I talk

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Speaker 1: AI driven, what are we talking about and also on

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Speaker 1: a global scale, would be syndicates that operate.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's true because we like we're dealing with transnational

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Speaker 3: organized crime at an industrial level, so that means across border,

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Speaker 3: across every jurisdiction, you have organized crime syndicates that are

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Speaker 3: operating businesses, scam businesses to fool the world out of

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Speaker 3: what is currently about one trillion dollars a year, far

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Speaker 3: greater than the whole global illicit drug trade, far more profitable,

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Speaker 3: and it's operated digitally, and because everything's gone to digital,

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Speaker 3: it makes it very easy. So we had a joke

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Speaker 3: last year when we spoke, is that you know, you

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Speaker 3: kind of even come in to this country with an

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Speaker 3: apple without being taken into a room and for instance

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Speaker 3: and getting in serious trouble. But you can receive a

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Speaker 3: phone call from someone in the Philippines that can flank

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Speaker 3: like fleece your bank account in less than five minutes

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Speaker 3: and law enforcement can't do anything about it. So what

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Speaker 3: we're talking about is this industrialized scale level of crime

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Speaker 3: that is operated digitally and AI has superpowered or supercharged

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Speaker 3: it for these criminals, and they have been operated by well,

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Speaker 3: there are many, we'll go into probably the two main

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Speaker 3: ones today, but you know, Southeast Asia is just a

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Speaker 3: honeypot for these scammer compounds and they've been operated primarily

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Speaker 3: by Chinese Chinese organized crime. And what is happening is

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Speaker 3: that they're actually being operated by victims of human trafficking.

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Speaker 3: So you actually have two sets of victims in this case.

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Speaker 3: We might just bring up a slide that we've got

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Speaker 3: just to illust kind of the scale at what we're doing.

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Speaker 3: So if we look at the first one, pig butchering.

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Speaker 3: Has anyone heard of pig butchering scams? It's a pretty

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Speaker 3: brutal term for a brutal crime, and pig butchering actually

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Speaker 3: stems from a Chinese word, and forgive my pronunciation, but

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Speaker 3: the word is shah zupan, which literally translates to killing

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Speaker 3: pig game, essentially referring to the fact that the scammers

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Speaker 3: are basically fattening up their victims like a pick by

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Speaker 3: showing them false profits and then they put more money

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Speaker 3: in fatten fatt and fatten and then they slaughter the victim,

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Speaker 3: taking everything from them, effectively bleeding them dry. And this

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Speaker 3: is the way that these crimes are described, and they

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Speaker 3: are being carried out by victims of human trafficking that

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Speaker 3: have been lured into these compounds by false employment opportunities.

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Speaker 3: And a lot of these people come from regions where

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Speaker 3: economically they're really looking to get ahead in life, send

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Speaker 3: money home to their families, etc. So they take a

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Speaker 3: chance and they end up imprisoned in these compounds and

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Speaker 3: it is said to be one of the biggest human

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Speaker 3: trafficking events in history. So two sets of victims, the

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Speaker 3: scam victim and the human traffic victim. And what they

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Speaker 3: have access to in these compounds is, you know, there's data,

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Speaker 3: there's systems, there's resources, there's technology, there's AI that is

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Speaker 3: coming out of these compounds. It is said to be

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Speaker 3: two years ahead of anything that we've seen. They take

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Speaker 3: the brightest minds, and this is these other scams that

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Speaker 3: we're all receiving on our phones and in our email

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Speaker 3: in boxes every single day. I mean, who's received one

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Speaker 3: in the last few weeks. Who's been targeted? Yeah, pretty

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Speaker 3: much everybody. So this is what we're dealing with, and

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Speaker 3: I think it's important that we talk about these. A

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Speaker 3: lot of people in the industry don't like using this

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Speaker 3: term piplechering because it is a very brutal term, but

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Speaker 3: this is what we're dealing with. It is not some

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Speaker 3: opportunistic creep in a basement down the road that thinks

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Speaker 3: they can get fifty bucks.

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Speaker 2: Out of you.

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Speaker 3: This is organized crime at an industrial scale. So this

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Speaker 3: is one of them that we talk about a lot.

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Speaker 1: And from a law enforcement point of view, these type

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Speaker 1: of crimes are difficult to investigate because of the cross

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Speaker 1: jurisdictional issues, like crimes being committed overseas. There's a whole

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Speaker 1: range of barriers for making a simple investigation. So they're

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Speaker 1: sort of ahead of the game in that regards pig

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Speaker 1: butchering about getting the return and dragging the victim in.

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Speaker 1: What makes a victim susceptible to that type of that

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Speaker 1: type of crime, Like when someone dangles something in front

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Speaker 1: of in front of them and the victim goes, okay,

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Speaker 1: that might be this might be one of the legit ones.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think it's fair to say that we

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Speaker 3: are all susceptible. You've said that and I learned this

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Speaker 3: the hard way. I never thought I would be in

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Speaker 3: this position. I thought I was smarter than that. I

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Speaker 3: had a great education, I've traveled the world. I thought

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Speaker 3: I was pretty intuitive, and yet all of those things

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Speaker 3: did not help me out in my situation. What happens

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Speaker 3: with these scams, and this is where AI has actually

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Speaker 3: gone to a new level, is that these machines and

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Speaker 3: machine learning and the technology can actually scal the internet

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Speaker 3: and work out per person, what is going to be

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Speaker 3: the most effective scam for you, which will be different

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Speaker 3: to the one for you, which will be different to

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Speaker 3: the one for you. And there are playbooks that they

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Speaker 3: sell to each other, they give to each other they use,

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Speaker 3: which basically is a step by step guide of what

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Speaker 3: to say, what to do, how to react. It is

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Speaker 3: a business, it is operated like a business, and it

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Speaker 3: actually doesn't matter what your vulnerability is. Maybe you're a

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Speaker 3: single mum with two kids and you're tired and stretched.

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Speaker 3: Maybe that's your vulnerability. Maybe you're you know, a divorced

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Speaker 3: man of sixty five and look looking for some other

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Speaker 3: opportunity over here. Maybe you know there's just there is

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Speaker 3: a scam for everyone, And what the technology can now

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Speaker 3: do is actually find the scam that you are going

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Speaker 3: to be most susceptible to falling for. And I don't

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Speaker 3: like that word falling for because you are deceived and

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Speaker 3: coerced into these situations. So it actually we're all vulnerable.

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Speaker 3: Right in any given day, week, or month of the year,

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Speaker 3: something is going to happen to us that makes us vulnerable.

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Speaker 3: We might not have slept last night. Tiredness is a vulnerability.

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Speaker 3: We might be struggling with the cost of living in

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Speaker 3: a given month, that's our vulnerability. We might have had

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Speaker 3: a relationship breakdown, that's a vulnerability. We might have just

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Speaker 3: had a big night. You know, some of the best scams,

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Speaker 3: the most successful scams happen on early on a Saturday

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Speaker 3: or Sunday morning when they know that you've been out

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Speaker 3: the night before.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the time that you came on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: I was winding because that weekend a Sunday morning. That

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Speaker 1: wake up on Sunday morning and something on my phone

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Speaker 1: that looking at it and lucky they didn't have a

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Speaker 1: big night on the Saturday night because I had a

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Speaker 1: clear head. Normally a Sunday morning they might have got me.

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Speaker 1: But I thought, no, this doesn't sound right, phone up,

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Speaker 1: and then all the hassles of canceling your accounts and

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Speaker 1: everyone's probably everyone's been through it once in their life

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Speaker 1: doing it in the hassle there bringing it back to

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Speaker 1: the time that you were schemed, and the whole elaborate plot.

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Speaker 1: I think what we don't understand is how motivated these

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Speaker 1: people are. Now. Tracy talked about the environment in which

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Speaker 1: they're growing up in or living in and the human trafficking.

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Speaker 1: They're highly motivated, and people are susceptible. It might be loneliness,

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Speaker 1: but the classic scam is invest this money and then

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Speaker 1: you get a return, and okay, it seems legit. You

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Speaker 1: start telling your friends it seems legit, like this has happened,

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Speaker 1: and then it gets bigger and bigger until the actual

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Speaker 1: they reveal themselves.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So romance investment scames operate like that. They generally

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Speaker 3: forged your crypto platform and people invest to a victim.

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Speaker 3: Last week he lost seven hundred thousand dollars to a

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Speaker 3: romance baiting scam is what they're called. So meta man

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Speaker 3: on a dating app and they started a relationship, a

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Speaker 3: digital relationship, but he encouraged her to set up a

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Speaker 3: trading account on this crypto platform, which all looked very legitimate,

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Speaker 3: but of course it was a crypto platform that was

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Speaker 3: operated by one of these syndicates. She lost seven hundred

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars single one with three kids, So that's definitely

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Speaker 3: how those ones work. I mean, there are many many

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Speaker 3: scams that we're all familiar with. Hey, mom, you know

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Speaker 3: there's the E toll scam, There's the Australia post scam.

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Speaker 3: There is you know, Quantus. Obviously, today in the news

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Speaker 3: again the data was released by the ransom cyber criminals.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what we call them these days, but

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Speaker 3: you know that data has been released. So anybody who has,

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Speaker 3: you know, an account with Quantum is going to be

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Speaker 3: susceptible to being targeted by a scam. It may not

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Speaker 3: come from Quantus, your data is out there and they

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Speaker 3: will use that to sing legitimate. And this is what

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Speaker 3: it all is about, is using information that is out

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Speaker 3: there that they've bought off the dark web and targeting

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Speaker 3: a scam to you. That makes it feel more legitimate

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Speaker 3: and more real, and therefore you are more likely to

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Speaker 3: click the link to transfer the money to do.

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Speaker 2: What they want you to do.

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Speaker 3: It's all about social engineering and coercive grooming.

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Speaker 2: That is how it works.

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Speaker 1: Tracy, if I could speak for I think the average

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Speaker 1: person who doesn't get inundated with emails and messages on

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Speaker 1: your phone, on your computer and it's all life becomes

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Speaker 1: too hard and you're thinking is this legit? But it's

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Speaker 1: not legiti. It's a common off bank, and I think

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Speaker 1: it just wears people down the other aspect of this crime,

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Speaker 1: and I think we're changing. I think we're changing, but

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Speaker 1: still violent crime gets the attention from the police, that

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Speaker 1: gets the attention from the media, and that doesn't you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not as dramatically covered. If it's someone that you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: someone that's lost seven hundred thousand dollars. You see these

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Speaker 1: stories and occasionally they pop up that people have worked

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Speaker 1: their whole life and ready for retirement, then they've lost

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Speaker 1: their money. There's stories like this, and I think from

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Speaker 1: a law enforcement point of view, we're starting to see

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Speaker 1: the changing culture because, as I said, crooks that are

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Speaker 1: a creative lot. If the cops have worked out one

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Speaker 1: way of preventing the crime, they change their they made

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Speaker 1: operandi and that's what these frauds that are doing. Then

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Speaker 1: add the cocktail of AI. It's hard to keep up with,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's interesting the point you make about law

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Speaker 3: enforcement not recognizing financial crime as severe as say, violent crime.

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Speaker 3: And what I've come to realize is that financial crime

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Speaker 3: to me seems like the only crime left in the

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Speaker 3: world where the victim is still blanked for what happened

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Speaker 3: to them. You shouldn't have clicked the link, you shouldn't

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Speaker 3: have sent that money. You shouldn't have you know, whatever

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Speaker 3: you've done to lose the money. And I think it

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Speaker 3: is natural as a victim you start to think that

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Speaker 3: about yourself as well. I know I certainly did, like

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Speaker 3: how could I be so stupid? Why did I do that?

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Speaker 3: Why didn't I ask another question? And the way in

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Speaker 3: which the media reports.

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Speaker 2: It is exactly the same.

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Speaker 3: So headlines that were written about me were things like

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Speaker 3: Tracy's dashing investor boyfriend single mum loses three hundred and

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Speaker 3: seventeen thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: All the red flags Tracy Hall missed.

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Speaker 3: And you know, if you want to correct that and

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Speaker 3: write it in the way that it should be, in

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Speaker 3: the same way that we've changed the narrative around violent

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Speaker 3: sexual crimes from what was she wearing, how late at night?

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Speaker 1: It was?

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Speaker 3: How many drinks has she had to He wasn't dashing.

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Speaker 3: He's actually a criminal. I didn't lose the money, he

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Speaker 3: stole it from me. And all the red flags I missed, well,

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Speaker 3: they were expertly disguised behaviors designed to manipulate and deceive me.

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Speaker 3: So there is a way for us to go from

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Speaker 3: a media perspective, but also from a law enforcement perspective,

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Speaker 3: because quite often these crimes are seen as a civil matter.

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Speaker 3: So it's very, very unusual to have this type of

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Speaker 3: crime go through the criminal courts like I was lucky.

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Speaker 2: I was lucky.

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Speaker 3: But everyone else who's losing money to financial crime, especially

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Speaker 3: transnational where it's cross border, cross jurisdiction and it's digital,

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Speaker 3: the police are really ineffective. I mean there's nothing they

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Speaker 3: can do in a certain sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's a very difficult situation where someone comes

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Speaker 1: in there. If you're investigating a robbery, I've been robbed, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what happened there was a person ran in, took the money.

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Speaker 1: The local inquiry has happened there. But when it's cross

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Speaker 1: jurisdictional and into some of the countries where these scams

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Speaker 1: are being generated from You could send an inquiry off

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Speaker 1: to into Parliament, you could take twelve months before they

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Speaker 1: even respond to it, if they respond to it, and

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Speaker 1: then you've got some places where it's been generated from

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Speaker 1: the city and within itself is corrupt, so the likelihoods

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Speaker 1: of following it through and I'm just thinking of all

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Speaker 1: the excuses running through a mind as a form of

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Speaker 1: police officer, but they are legitimate barriers to investigating the crime.

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Speaker 1: I know the AFP have been doing a lot of

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Speaker 1: work and we're trying to break down the barriers between

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Speaker 1: the state police so there's a more freedom of communication

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Speaker 1: and transfer all of information. But it's such a difficult,

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Speaker 1: difficult crime to investigate.

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Speaker 3: It is really difficult and difficult to prosecute. So from

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Speaker 3: a victim's point of view, you never see justice. These

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Speaker 3: people who have lost life savings, This woman who lost

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Speaker 3: seven hundred thousand dollars last week, she will never ever

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Speaker 3: see justice, and so there's no closure. And there's a

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Speaker 3: whole bunch of other things we could talk about in

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Speaker 3: terms of victims support for financial crime victims, but I

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Speaker 3: think that's one of the hardest is that you never

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Speaker 3: see these things come to justice.

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Speaker 1: And I think we've been in this room long enough now,

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Speaker 1: and you've heard Tracy talk. She's not naive. She didn't

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Speaker 1: go into this relationship with blinkers on. These things can

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Speaker 1: happen and people are highly motivated. I don't think I

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Speaker 1: can stress that enough that you don't realize the mind

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Speaker 1: of a crook. If they're onto something, how hard they

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Speaker 1: work for it. If they put there's much effort into

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Speaker 1: doing it on the stage work, they probably wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: to do all the scams, but that is the nature

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Speaker 1: of it. There's another particular crime that in our discussions

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Speaker 1: you were talking about, and I refer to it as

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Speaker 1: the Yahoo Boys, But this is when we're talking consequences

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Speaker 1: of crime. Have a listen to what's happening here and

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Speaker 1: the concerns that we all all should have that we

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Speaker 1: all know young children and the exploitation of children through

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Speaker 1: this crime.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we've got another visual for this one as well.

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Speaker 3: So this is the criminal syndicate that frightens me the

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Speaker 3: most right now. Has anyone heard of Yahoo Boys.

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Speaker 2: One hand? One hand? Yeah, this is one that you

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Speaker 2: might want to know about.

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Speaker 3: They are a group of sophisticated cyber criminals operating out

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Speaker 3: of West Africa, primarily Nigeria, and they conduct a lot

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Speaker 3: of scams, but mostly romance scams and sextortion scams and

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Speaker 3: sex stortion. You know, is one that you've probably all

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Speaker 3: heard of. But one of their main targets is teenagers.

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Speaker 3: And what they do is they create hundreds and hundreds

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Speaker 3: of profiles of beautiful men and women and then they

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Speaker 3: bomb social media sites or basically anywhere where kids hang out,

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Speaker 3: and they start conversations with them basically using DM functionality,

401
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Speaker 3: disappearing messages, any type of functionality that allows them to

402
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Speaker 3: sort of operate undercover, and they build hyper intimate relationships

403
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Speaker 3: very very quickly, and they entice the victim to send

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Speaker 3: a nude or an illicit video, and once they have

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Speaker 3: that content, they then threaten to share or release that

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Speaker 3: content with school friends, family, employers, and social media followers.

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Speaker 2: And if the victim sends.

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Speaker 3: Money or a gift card, then they just simply to

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Speaker 3: continue to threaten release of the content, demanding more.

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Speaker 2: Now, this sounds like it's.

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Speaker 3: Happening in far away countries, in dark places of the Internet,

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Speaker 3: not close to home, but it is the most rapidly

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Speaker 3: growing crime targeting teenagers in Australia, Canada, the UK and

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Speaker 3: the US because our teens are highly digital and because

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Speaker 3: most of them have a bit of money in a

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Speaker 3: bank account, and what they do is even if the

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Speaker 3: child has not sent a neod, because a lot of

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Speaker 3: parents will go, well, my kid would never send a nude.

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Speaker 3: You don't even have to. They'll scrape a picture of

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Speaker 3: social media or take a selfie and then they'll basically

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Speaker 3: put it through a new toify tool and create a

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Speaker 3: very realistic deep fake and threaten to share that. And

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Speaker 3: this is escalated incredibly in the last five years. In Australia,

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Speaker 3: reports to E Safety, you've gone up thirteen hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: In the US between twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: they went up seven two hundred percent. Sadly, in the

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Speaker 3: last eighteen months, fifty boys across those countries have chosen

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Speaker 3: to die by suicide because they've been sexually extorted. The

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Speaker 3: youngest was twelve. It is so frightening what is happening.

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Speaker 3: I saw it playing out on my daughter's phone earlier

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Speaker 3: this year. I confiscated her phone don't ASKO and during

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Speaker 3: the time I had her phone, I went through every

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Speaker 3: piece of content. I went through every app, I went

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Speaker 3: through every conversation, and I got to Snapchat, and I'm

435
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 3: not of the Snapchat generation. I don't have Snapchat, so

436
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 3: I went deep and she was getting friend requests from

437
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 3: randoms with no mutuals, and you know, I decided just

438
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 3: to start pretending to be her, and I was accepting

439
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 3: these friend requests, and within minutes the script came exactly

440
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 3: the same from all of these different contacts. Now, these

441
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 3: people were pretending to be fifteen year old boys from

442
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 3: the next suburb.

443
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 2: They were not.

444
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 3: I can tell you they were the Yahoo Boys because

445
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 3: I can see the scripts I've researched. I know that

446
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 3: they were Yahoo Boys or someone operating like these criminals do.

447
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 3: And essentially, the conversation is the same every time, Hi,

448
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 3: how are you, how old are you?

449
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 2: Where do you live? What school do you go to?

450
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 3: They're the qualifying questions, and then they'll just mirror back,

451
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 3: you know, they'll know what a local school is in

452
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 3: that area, they're about the same age, someone of the

453
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 3: opposite sex, and then it turns very quickly to things

454
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 3: like WDYLLL does anyone know what that stands for? Anyone

455
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 3: have teenagers? This is a fun game to play what

456
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 3: do you look like? Which is essentially an invitation to

457
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 3: send a selfie and it goes from there. Dys is

458
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 3: the other one? Any one know that one? Do you send?

459
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 3: An invitation to respond to do you send? So it's

460
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 3: just exactly the same every time. Now they have a

461
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,479
Speaker 3: script because the script works, and this is something that

462
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 3: escalates within hours, not days, not weeks, not months. This

463
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 3: will escalate within ours to the point where these children

464
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 3: are so afraid, so ashamed, and so embarrassed that they

465
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 3: would choose to take their own life. So this is

466
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 3: one that I feel incredibly passionate about and I think

467
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 3: we all need to know about it.

468
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: Well, just on a couple of things that you said there,

469
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: and I'm processing it through my mind as you're talking

470
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: about and looking in the audience, I could see them

471
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: all thinking the same thing. How easy it is? It

472
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: like sending to your daughter's vane someone, Oh, oh that's great.

473
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: You're in the school next door, We live in the

474
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: suburb next door, and kids just respond. They're not looking

475
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: at the world with fear like we do asults. You've

476
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: seen that what can happen. So this innocence is being

477
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: exploited and just thinking, oh, they're just friendly people. We've

478
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: got friendly people. Yeah, that's frightening, it.

479
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 2: Is, and other things.

480
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 3: You know, this is where social engineering comes into it,

481
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 3: and they're all based on social engineering. It's not the

482
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 3: technology that's, you know, necessarily the most evil thing, it's

483
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 3: the social engineering tactics. So things like, you know, a

484
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 3: brand will drop into someone's DMS or a child's DMS

485
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 3: and say, hey, really like the way you look and

486
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 3: you know, your whole vibe. We're looking for ambassadors. Can

487
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 3: we send you some clothes? And you know, every fifteen

488
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 3: year old girl in the history of ever would go,

489
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 3: oh my god, I'm going to be an influencer.

490
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: Amazing.

491
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 3: The next thing comes back. We just need a few picks,

492
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 3: and then it goes from there. We just need a

493
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 3: few picks in your bikini. We just need a few

494
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 3: picks in your sports gear. And that's where it starts.

495
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 3: So that's when you wouldn't even think. It's just completely

496
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 3: thrown them off track and they think there's an opportunity

497
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 3: to be an influencer. I mean, who wouldn't be excited

498
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: by that? And so they're not thinking logically.

499
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: And then then you think and wind it back to

500
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: when you're a teenager. The shame that you'd feel if

501
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 1: all your friends contacts they're going to they're threatening to

502
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: send nudes out to you, all your contacts, your parents,

503
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: everyone that you know. That's and the rate of taking

504
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: their own lives is just as frightening, isn't It's so sad.

505
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: There was one that you pointed me to on the

506
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: Spotlight I think it was, And how quickly, how quickly

507
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: it happened, If anyone has seen that particular segment on

508
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: the show Spotlight, a young kid, happy, healthy, They reached

509
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: out and they got him caught up in the scam

510
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: and threatened to send nude photos that they had of him,

511
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: and he went and killed himself. He just was terrifying

512
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: listening to the parents and how quickly he went from

513
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: played football that afternoon, was happy, all going well, and

514
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden just sort of gone to

515
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: his room and the next thing they knew, he was dead.

516
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is not an uncommon story.

517
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, where do these the Yahoo boys? Where are they

518
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: based and what's their story?

519
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 3: They're based out of West Africa, primarily Nigeria, and the

520
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 3: challenge with these ones are it's not so much organized

521
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 3: crime in the way that Me and mar and Camboda

522
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 3: in Southeast Asia in terms of the pig butchering, but

523
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 3: it's seen as a very aspirational career for these boys.

524
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 3: So if we just flick through to the next slide, please, Essentially,

525
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: it's flaunted on social media in terms of the lifestyle

526
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 3: that you will have if you become Yahoo Boy, and

527
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 3: BM is a format they call it BM format, which

528
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 3: is Black Male format. The fourth screen along there are

529
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 3: all the different scripts that are targeted depending on the

530
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 3: particular victim. And you know, essentially you can go on

531
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: to Facebook now and join a Yahoo Boy group and

532
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 3: you can learn how to be a Yahoo Boy, So

533
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 3: it is not hidden at all. It is seen as

534
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 3: very aspirational. They are flaunting their wealth. And again these

535
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 3: are people from incredibly poor backgrounds and poor countries, so

536
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 3: you can see how, I don't know, you could see

537
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 3: how somebody might want to get into that. But the

538
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 3: problem is in sharing all of this information, it just

539
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 3: proliferates it and they share what works, and they share

540
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 3: the data, and they share the playbooks, and so our

541
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 3: kids are being targeted with these things that are very

542
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 3: very successful and it just keeps going, and it keeps going.

543
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 3: So what we have to do is break the cycle,

544
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 3: teach our kids how to view these things. My daughter's

545
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 3: fifteen now, I have no problem showing her the darkest

546
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: things that I see because she's got no idea.

547
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: They just we do believe.

548
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 3: I mean, we live in this beautiful, safe country and

549
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 3: we don't imagine that these things exist, and so we trust.

550
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 3: What we see in the price of trust for some

551
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 3: families is a child. And so I think there's some

552
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 3: education to be done.

553
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: Well, we talk and this is the evolving world. Like

554
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: we talk about how we educate kids to warn them

555
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: of danger as they were growing up in all the

556
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: pre digital digital world. But what they've got now, and

557
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: it is the responsibility of the generation with kids now

558
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: to educate the kids of what potentially could happen. There's

559
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: another aspect of it. We're talking about children that have

560
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: grown up with the digital world. Then you've got the elderly.

561
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,959
Speaker 1: Like the elderly that everything is just frightening to them.

562
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: They do not understand what's going on. And I can

563
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: speak for my mother, not to not to embarrass her,

564
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: but the amount of times she's been caught in the

565
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 1: early days of scamming where people are just phoning up

566
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: and I seem like a lovely person and he's very

567
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: interested and he won them a day to birth and

568
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: then passwords and the okay change the accounts. That happens

569
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: to people because there is a trust. What where are

570
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: they targeting the elderly people that simply don't know how

571
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: to manage the digital world?

572
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, everywhere, I mean through emails, through text messages, through

573
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 3: phone calls, and talk about AI technology, you're looking at

574
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 3: real time deep fake voice clones. So somebody could scrape

575
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 3: my voice off some social media posts I've done and

576
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 3: create a script and basically call my mom and have

577
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,959
Speaker 3: it sound like me and you know they're hearing. Is

578
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 3: not as great as it used to be. So even

579
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 3: those small technical glitches, as the technology is catching up,

580
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 3: it still sounds like me. And so there are things

581
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 3: like that, so where you kind of think, okay, well,

582
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 3: if I'm on the phone to you mom, it's going

583
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 3: to be okay. They can fake your voice. So the

584
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 3: technology is getting to a point where I know a

585
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 3: lot of you know, my mom and her friends, they're

586
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 3: almost afraid to open a text message, open an email,

587
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 3: click on a link, even things that are legitimate, they

588
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 3: won't engage with, which is a real challenge for brands

589
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 3: as well, like how do we actually engage with our

590
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 3: customers in a world where people don't trust what's coming

591
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: out them because they're so scared. And that's where I

592
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 3: think education is really important and we will get to it.

593
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 3: But you know, they're so fit. You want you don't

594
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 3: want them to be afraid. You want them to be empowered,

595
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 3: but they also have to be aware, and I think

596
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 3: it's getting to a point where they're gone from yes,

597
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 3: he seems like a nice man, I will give him

598
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 3: my passport details to I'm not even going to open

599
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 3: a text message because I'm too scared about what's going

600
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 3: to come at me, and I'm too scared about banking

601
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 3: online and all of those things.

602
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: So and you don't want them living that way or

603
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: living their life that way, because that's they're not enjoying

604
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: and experiencing life as much as much as they can do.

605
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: We talk about well, we've talked about the type of

606
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: crimes and the AI aspect of it really scares me,

607
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: like that super intelligence that's coming that, how are we

608
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: going to keep up with it. But let's talk now

609
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: about some of them, the things or strategies that you

610
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: think can be put in place and dumb it down

611
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 1: for everyone. I lost my wallet on the way here today.

612
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: I left it in the uber that helped me out

613
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: idiots like me. I'm tracking it down. Don't worry. I

614
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: used to be a detective. I will find it.

615
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: At least you didn't lose your phone.

616
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: And that's the first thing you said, at least it

617
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: was in your phone, and I always thought wallet. But

618
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 1: I would be mortified if I lost my phone. That

619
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: would probably cause me more problems. So the main thing

620
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: is check your back pocket when you get out of

621
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: the uber and don't lose That's step one who says

622
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: you're not going to learn coming to this door. You

623
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,439
Speaker 1: take it from there. That's my advice, I think.

624
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,959
Speaker 3: And we do have another slide, But I wanted to say,

625
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 3: first of all, the most intelligent thing that we can

626
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 3: do when it comes to scams and fraud is to

627
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,919
Speaker 3: humbly accept that it could happen to us. I think

628
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 3: the moment we accept that it could happen to us

629
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 3: is the moment that we start to be more aware

630
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 3: and more vigilance. So that being the stuff arting point.

631
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 3: The second thing I want to say too is that

632
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 3: the most powerful weapon in a scammer's toolkit it's not

633
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 3: actually technology, it's psychology. So we have to be aware

634
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: of our vulnerabilities, our biases, and how we can get

635
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 3: hacked as humans. So there's this beautiful line that says

636
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 3: scammers don't hack systems, they hack people. Now, relating this

637
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 3: back to the Quantas example, again, the hackers didn't get

638
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 3: into the Quantus system. They made a phone call to

639
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 3: a third party supplier and they hacked a human. They

640
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 3: basically use social engineering tactics to get the human to

641
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 3: give them access to a system, and that's how that

642
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 3: data was taken. So everyone thinks it's a cyber attack

643
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 3: and they hacked into a system and they had amazing technology.

644
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 2: No they didn't.

645
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 3: They made a phone call. So humans are the weakest link.

646
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: Sadly.

647
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 3: Now, with all of that being said, education and awareness

648
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 3: is key, But I would be brave enough to say

649
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 3: that I don't think it's been done well enough. I

650
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 3: don't think it's enough to put a banner on a

651
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 3: banking app. I don't think it's enough to send an

652
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 3: obligatory email with a couple of points that kind of

653
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 3: broadly talk about what to watch out for. I think,

654
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 3: especially as we talk about seniors and we talk about

655
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 3: our children, we have to show, not tell. Now, if

656
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 3: you read somewhere, or a senior reads somewhere, set up

657
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: your biometric two factor authentication. Now, some people we might

658
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 3: know what that is. My mum would have no idea.

659
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 3: She'd go, what is two factor or authental?

660
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: What?

661
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 2: Now?

662
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 3: When I show her and I show her what the

663
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 3: difference between a biometric one and a password is, then

664
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 3: she understands and she can do that. But then I

665
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 3: also have to say, mom, never use your voice to verify?

666
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 2: Oh why not?

667
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 3: Then I have to go into that and I have

668
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 3: to show her that how to use a reverse image search. Now,

669
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 3: a lot of scene are online. They're playing a lot

670
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 3: of games, they're buying things on marketplace, maybe they're even

671
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 3: online dating. Now, teaching a senior how to use a

672
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: reverse image search is one of the most invaluable tools

673
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 3: you can teach them. But you can't just say, do

674
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 3: a reverse image search. They would not know where to start.

675
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 3: So we have to show them. We have to sit

676
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 3: with them and show them once they do it, they

677
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 3: get it. So there are a lot of different technical

678
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 3: solutions that we can show our scene is and our

679
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 3: kids on how to keep safe, but you do need

680
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 3: to take the time to do it. And that's what

681
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 3: I think, in conjunction with all the other great work

682
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 3: that is going on from industry, is we really need

683
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 3: these hands on education programs that show people how to

684
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 3: use technology, how to do a domain look up. You know,

685
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 3: there'd be people of my age group that wouldn't know

686
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 3: how to do that, but once you show them, it's super,

687
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 3: super easy. And that's a way that you can actually

688
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 3: spot whether an email incoming is you know.

689
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: Legitimate or not. So there's lots of tips up there, but.

690
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 3: I think it is really about showing people how to

691
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 3: use these technologies, especially the seniors in our world.

692
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: Okay, with the seniors with kids, Yeah, what's what's the

693
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: messaging right from the start? Now, when should they have

694
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: access to the phone and what should their phone have

695
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: on it? And should it just be poor mum? And

696
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 1: that's about it. What can we do there?

697
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 3: Well, I think we have to accept that we're living

698
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 3: in a very digital world. I am one hundred percent

699
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 3: for the social media delay personally, if nothing else, just

700
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 3: based on what I see in my research around the

701
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 3: targeting of teenagers with sex stortion scams, I think conversations

702
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 3: and open conversations from a very early age. Most children

703
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 3: are being exposed to nudity through a screen from the

704
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 3: ages of eleven probably younger now, and sending and receiving

705
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 3: nuds is not very unusual for them. Eighty six percent

706
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,720
Speaker 3: of kids have either seen a nude, sent to nude,

707
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 3: received a neud. So weird for us, not weird for them.

708
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 3: So we have to have these commonversations and have them early,

709
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 3: don't make it weird, and also just you know, give

710
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 3: them the information to help them understand that what they

711
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 3: see is not necessarily the reality. So how do you

712
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 3: spot a fake profile? How do you delve deeper? How

713
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 3: do you have your critical thinking brain on when you get,

714
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 3: you know, an offer of an ambassadorship with a brand

715
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,879
Speaker 3: that you've never heard of, things like that. And then

716
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 3: of course you as a parent, you need.

717
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: To understand the apps.

718
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 3: I didn't understand Snapchat, so I had to level up.

719
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 1: My knowledge, get yourself involved in.

720
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and really understand how the features of these products

721
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 3: are used and what may be seen as security features.

722
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 3: So encryptive messaging, disappearing messages are actually weaponized by criminals,

723
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 3: and so we have to think about that as well,

724
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 3: and we have to have those open conversations with our

725
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 3: kids at the right level. You know, a conversation with

726
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 3: an eleven year old is going to be very different

727
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 3: to a conversation with a seventeen year old.

728
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 2: So there's that, and.

729
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 3: Then there's you know, if you feel for you and

730
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 3: your family that restrictions in terms of certain apps are

731
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 3: the right thing, then that's up to you to decide.

732
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 3: So my daughter doesn't have Snapchat anymore, no way, one

733
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 3: hundred percent now. But that's that's my family. That's my decision.

734
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, we talk about and I know when you experience

735
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: what you went through. You said you had a friend

736
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: that was saw the warning signs there. I had. I

737
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: had a phone call just the other day from a

738
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 1: person I've got to know after I've left for the

739
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: police and spent a lot of time in prison, and

740
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: he's a success story. He's turned his life around, he

741
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: escaped from prison, had done all sorts of things, and

742
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: he famed me up the other day and said, Gary,

743
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: I think I've been scammed. And he said, this is embarrassing.

744
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: I should have should have seen it at someone that's

745
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: come in to speak to him about a business venture

746
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: and everything seemed too good. And I won't mention his name.

747
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 1: I wait, embarrassing him, but he said, I look, I

748
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 1: wanted to like him. He's seen we were having a

749
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: joint business venture. And then I are that to have

750
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: my friends tell me too good to be true, too

751
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: good to be true. There is something to be said

752
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: to listening to your listening to your friends or your

753
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: peers or your family, people will go, oh, that this

754
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: doesn't quite seem right.

755
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, And part of this is starting with a conversation

756
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 3: about money because a lot of these things are about

757
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 3: extracting money. In fact, most scams are about extracting money

758
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 3: or data, and money is one of those taboos that

759
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 3: we still have in this world. And we, you know,

760
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 3: we don't want to talk about money. But in talking

761
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 3: about money and what you're doing with your money, then

762
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 3: when these opportunities come to you, it feels very natural

763
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 3: to discuss them with someone else. And what is happening

764
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 3: right now is that scams are playing on the fact

765
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 3: that we don't talk about money. I certainly didn't talk

766
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 3: about what I was doing with Hamish, really with anyone

767
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 3: except this one friend who you know, saw the red

768
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 3: flags that I didn't. And you know, had I spoken

769
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 3: to five or six of my friends about what I

770
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 3: was doing, I'm sure I would have had multiple of

771
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 3: these conversations and it probably would have sunk in. But

772
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 3: there is a psychological thing called betrayal blindness, which is

773
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 3: actually this notion that even when you know that you're

774
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 3: being betrayed, or you're being told that you're being betrayed,

775
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 3: you will still go ahead with the decision that you're

776
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 3: making because you want to actually reinforce your thoughts and

777
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 3: your decisions about what you're doing with your life or

778
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,439
Speaker 3: this thing or whatever. So betrayal blindness is a real thing,

779
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 3: and there's some cost fallacy, like there's a number of

780
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 3: things that our brains actually work against us in these moments,

781
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 3: which is why it's so important to have this support

782
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 3: network that is watching and seeing what you're doing and

783
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,720
Speaker 3: not afraid to say to you. I think most people

784
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:41,919
Speaker 3: don't want to actually have.

785
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: That chat, have the conversation. All of us in the

786
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: room might have a friend that it might be on

787
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: a relationship, or it might be something like a financial

788
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: gain or something doesn't feel right. Just have the conversation.

789
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: It doesn't hurt to put it out there because I

790
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: think a lot of these things could be prevented if

791
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: people actually spoke about It's interesting you don't because generally

792
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: we don't talk about their finance, do we. So you're, ah,

793
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: I think I'm on the good thing. I'll tell them

794
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: when I've made my first million dollars. But yeah, you

795
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: lose it.

796
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 2: And you don't talk about money you've lost.

797
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 1: No, that's true.

798
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: So you couple.

799
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 3: Scams and losing money to scams or fraud with talking

800
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 3: about money, and it's like a silent secrecy that just

801
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 3: makes it breed even greater. So and that's what they

802
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 3: play and like they pray on that, you know, embarrassment, shame,

803
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 3: silence and secrecy and it's all about money.

804
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Gary Jubilan here. Want to get more

805
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 1: out of I Catch Killers, then you should head over

806
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: to our new video feed on Spotify where you can

807
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for

808
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching.

809
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 1: Today we talk about the law enforcement looking at crime

810
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: as we do violent crime, it doesn't seem to get

811
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: the attention. Do you think the courts in your opinion,

812
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: you think the courts are starting to appreciate the impact

813
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: that these scams and frauds is are having.

814
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 3: I think if it gets to the courts, you've got

815
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 3: to get it to the court. I mean, we received

816
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 3: an incredibly big sentence for Hamish. Hamish received one of

817
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 3: the biggest sentences for white collar crime New South Wales

818
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 3: has ever seen sixteen years and that was to make

819
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,439
Speaker 3: a statement and it was reduced because it was seen

820
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 3: to be too severe, sadly. But yeah, so when it

821
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 3: gets there, then yes, I think things are changing, but

822
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 3: to get it to the courts, to even get that

823
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 3: far is incredibly difficult. And in civil matters, no, I

824
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 3: don't think. I don't think people who intentionally steal money

825
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 3: in this way get the justice that is needed because

826
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 3: it's just it's too easy, you know.

827
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: And it's looked at white collar crime and there is

828
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: that different, different perception to it. But the impact that

829
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: has on livee should never be forgotten. And we're not

830
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 1: just talking out the flow on effect from the Yahoo

831
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: boys and the type of things they were doing. That's

832
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: these other people. Other people lost their life's savings and

833
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: that their life will never be never be the same.

834
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 1: What lessons. Obviously, you're making it your passion for people

835
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 1: to help people. You've learned, you've educated, and you're pass

836
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: passing on that knowledge. I'm sure people are going to

837
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: walk out of this room and look at everyone beside

838
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: them and think, who's a scammer? Who's trying? What are

839
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: you trying to do? I just said hello, like that

840
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 1: type of thing. How should we approach it? Like? How

841
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: how should we approach it?

842
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 4: Like?

843
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a classic case of you get get

844
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: the emails, a texts that you don't recognize. You know,

845
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: I'm toughened up. I don't answer a phone if I

846
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,280
Speaker 1: don't recognize the number. Now, what are the simple things,

847
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: like day to day things that you can do well?

848
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 3: I think again, just assume that it might happen to you,

849
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 3: and that's your starting point. One of the things I

850
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 3: do say is trust, but verify and then verify again,

851
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 3: because with AI and technology, just verifying once might not

852
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 3: be enough anymore. Because things look the way they're meant

853
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 3: to look, even if they're not exactly what they are

854
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 3: so trust, but verify. The other thing I say is

855
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,879
Speaker 3: be skeptical, but don't be cynical. So really have your

856
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 3: critical thinking cap on, you know, and when life gets

857
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 3: busy and everything's pushed at you all the time, you know,

858
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,439
Speaker 3: really just take a moment and stop. And I think

859
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 3: that's what the other thing is too, like that we

860
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 3: are operating at such a pace that we just want

861
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 3: to get things off our dess, through our emails, through

862
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 3: our text messages.

863
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 2: Stop, slow down. Trust.

864
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 3: You know, we can't go around this world not trusting.

865
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 3: The whole world operates on invisible contracts of trust. It

866
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 3: actually just wouldn't work if we didn't trust. So we

867
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 3: have to trust, but we have to verify and then

868
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 3: we verify again. And I just think that's what we do.

869
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 3: Just slow down and take a look thing critically and verify.

870
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: Now, I think we've got time for some questions. There'll

871
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: be a microphone going around. Has anyone got any questions?

872
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 5: Thank you for your talk today. I was wondering, do

873
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 5: you worry now that you're even more of a target

874
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 5: because you're so outspoken about how people can protect themselves.

875
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 5: But do you have any online bank accounts?

876
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 2: Yes?

877
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: I get's careful.

878
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: Do you want the number? No, I'll give you my

879
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: pin number.

880
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 3: I get targeted all the time, all the time, I'm

881
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 3: getting messages, emails. I just know what to look for now,

882
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 3: and because I am in this space, I look a

883
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 3: lot more closely than what most people would. But you're right,

884
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 3: people who have been victims to scams and fraud are

885
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 3: twice as more likely to become secondary victims within two years.

886
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 3: And that is because again, this information is sold on

887
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 3: the dark web. They're a scam victim, or they post

888
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 3: something online, or they gone seek out some sort of

889
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 3: service to help them retrieve money, and then they get revictimized.

890
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 3: So it's some ridiculous proportion, like fifty percent of people

891
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 3: get re scammed again, something like that, And so scam

892
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 3: victims actually have to be really, really careful. So you're right,

893
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 3: But I mean, this is my life's work now, So

894
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 3: all day, every day I'm learning about new scams. I

895
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 3: get targeted all the time. I'm very vigilant.

896
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: Now.

897
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean I'm immune, because I'm human, you know,

898
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 3: and there may be a chance that I accidentally tap

899
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,720
Speaker 3: on something, or I haven't checked a URL or something

900
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 3: happens where I'm deceived. I would say I'm probably one

901
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 3: of the most vigilant people around now because I've not

902
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 3: only been through it personally, but I see a lot

903
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 3: through my research. But yeah, it's a really interesting point,

904
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 3: and people don't realize that that once you have been

905
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 3: scammed twice, it's more likely to be scammed again.

906
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 6: Thank you for sharing your wonderful stories and being braved

907
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 6: and getting up there. Is it just down of pure

908
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 6: arrogance that they just keep scanning someone like you, isn't

909
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 6: they Are they just sharing like their playbook on feed

910
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 6: for you to just analyze them and see, oh here's

911
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 6: another one. Oh that's you, Like, couldn't it be the opposite, Like,

912
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 6: don't go after her because she's writing the book on it.

913
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, she'll put it on her social media feed. Actually

914
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 3: gives me lots of good content and people send me

915
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 3: stuff that they've received, which gives me endless days of

916
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 3: content creation. To be honest, a lot of them are

917
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 3: just spray and pray efforts, so they'll have a bunch

918
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 3: of data that I mean, who's received a Hey mum

919
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 3: scam or Hey Dad, who's received an Australia Post scam. Yes,

920
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 3: who's received an ETOL scan. Yes, so there's nothing unique

921
00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 3: about that. It's a spray and pray tactic. They do

922
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 3: the same with email addresses. They've garnered this information off

923
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 3: the dark web through a data breach and then they'll

924
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 3: they'll do it. So, yes, it might seem more relevant

925
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 3: because they might know a little bit more about me.

926
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 3: I'm a single mom, I'm a certain age, I live

927
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 3: in a certain suburb. But other than that, you know,

928
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 3: they're not saying don't send to her because we know

929
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 3: who she is. It's not like that in terms of

930
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 3: these digital scams we're getting. If it was another character

931
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 3: like Hamish McLaren, then I would question. I mean, that

932
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 3: would be silly of them to do that because that's

933
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 3: never going to happen again. But these these digital scams,

934
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 3: they're just using data and they're just spraying it out. Yeah, hi,

935
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 3: thank you.

936
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 4: So when I was eighteen, I actually got my life

937
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 4: saving taken of me as well as my passport everything,

938
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 4: and then I realized at the time, I talked bank

939
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 4: and they said to.

940
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 6: Me, we can't do anything for you.

941
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,280
Speaker 4: And then this is about forty years ago, I actually

942
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 4: spoke to them about a year and a half ago,

943
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,479
Speaker 4: and they said, oh, it's too long ago, we can't help.

944
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 6: But there's a ten yeal talking policy. I't like, that's

945
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 6: a bit silly.

946
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 1: So what and actually to.

947
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 4: Think about my sister and my brother also be in

948
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 4: standard all the money, so maybe it's a family. What

949
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 4: would someone do if they find themselves in that situation?

950
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 6: What's your advice?

951
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 3: Firstly, I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm in a

952
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 3: similar position, to be honest, So this happened to me

953
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 3: eight and a half years ago. It was a criminal case,

954
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 3: so the police and the detectives and the DPP took

955
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 3: over and they were doing so I actually had no

956
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 3: ability to have communication with the bank, with a superannuation company,

957
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 3: I lost twenty two years of superannuation, career superannuation. And

958
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 3: now it's a point where I would have to employ

959
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 3: a lawyer and subpoena that information. But I believe I'm

960
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 3: in a similar situation where that information is probably gone.

961
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 3: If we're talking about that situation now, things have moved

962
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 3: on so incredibly in the last eight years. So things

963
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 3: that the banks and the institutions have put in place

964
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 3: now because of the proliferation of this type of fraud

965
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 3: would have actually probably protected me in a way that

966
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 3: I didn't have protection back then, and I imagine it's

967
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 3: probably the same for you. So for that, you know,

968
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 3: we have seen progress. It doesn't help me now, but

969
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 3: what it does show me is that if I was

970
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 3: ever in that situation again, or if someone else, then

971
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 3: there are some gates in place through the financial institutions.

972
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 3: Also superannuation that didn't exist eight and a half years ago.

973
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 3: So I have faith that there are more triggers and

974
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 3: flags that are preventing these things from happening, but there

975
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 3: are still people getting through the cracks. When I speak

976
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 3: to the heads of fraud the big banks, they tell

977
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 3: me the biggest frustration that they have is that they

978
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 3: notice these things happening and it's flagged and it's triggered,

979
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 3: and the call center will call out to the victim,

980
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 3: and the victim basically won't believe that it's happening. They've

981
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 3: got this betrayal blindness. They're wearing their rose colored glasses.

982
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,720
Speaker 3: And regulation in Australia and law is that if a

983
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 3: customer instructs a transfer of money, they have to do it.

984
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 3: They can't put a hold on that. So that is

985
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,479
Speaker 3: one of the biggest frustrations that the banks have because

986
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 3: they have all of these systems in place now that

987
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 3: didn't exist back then, because if they did, I would

988
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 3: have got a phone call. Why are you transferring that

989
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 3: much money to their Why do you suddenly want to

990
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 3: set up a self managed super fund? Where is your

991
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 3: investment strategy? There were some gaps, for sure. I didn't

992
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 3: have the ability to investigate those gaps back then because

993
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 3: it was done by law enforcement and you know yet

994
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 3: that's frustrating. But at the same time, Hamish received a

995
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 3: sixteen near criminal sentence. So I think for now for people,

996
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,919
Speaker 3: there are more things in place which are making sure

997
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 3: that people don't end up in the situations that we did.

998
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:05,359
Speaker 3: I hope that answers your question.

999
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: Time for one more Yeah, Hi, thank you if you're talking.

1000
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 2: I wanted to go back to what we were talking

1001
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 2: about of.

1002
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 7: Like, with training, you're helping your parents sort of like

1003
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 7: the elderly kind of understand these things.

1004
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 3: I was talking to my mom a few months ago.

1005
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 6: She showed me a video on Instagram.

1006
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,760
Speaker 7: She's like, look at this, and I'm like, Mom, that's AI,

1007
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 7: and so I just kind of clicked with me of like,

1008
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 7: I work in it, and I sort of understand the

1009
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 7: risks and stuff. But where do we start in teaching

1010
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 7: our parents about these things and making sure that they're

1011
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,919
Speaker 7: educated about the different the different things that can happen

1012
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 7: to them as they get targeted in these ways.

1013
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,840
Speaker 3: I think exactly how we start with our children is

1014
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 3: through conversations and showing them examples of you know, documentaries

1015
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 3: are a great way to do that. Hey mm, watched

1016
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 3: this and there's heaps of them on sort of romance

1017
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 3: scams and different types of fraud scams, things like that,

1018
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 3: sitting down with a cup of tea if you can,

1019
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 3: and saying, hey, mom, see this thing on Facebook and

1020
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 3: it talks about an investment opportunity and it's David Kosh. Yeah,

1021
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 3: his mouth is moving really funny and it's not really

1022
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 3: And do you think David Kosh should be, you know,

1023
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 3: setting up an investment fun like really? Do you think,

1024
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,839
Speaker 3: like really sitting down and taking them through, step by

1025
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 3: step all the things that we notice or know to

1026
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 3: look for, explaining that to our parents or you know,

1027
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 3: I had to explain to my mum how voice cloning works,

1028
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 3: just like how could somebody bring me and pretend to

1029
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:31,839
Speaker 3: be you. I said, well, what they do is they

1030
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 3: do this and then they just take it from this

1031
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 3: part here. They'll write a script here and then it

1032
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:40,359
Speaker 3: will sound like me. And then I actually created one

1033
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,320
Speaker 3: on speech if I and it took me like five minutes,

1034
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 3: and I sent it to her and she goes, oh,

1035
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 3: that sounds like you. I would have sent the money,

1036
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,320
Speaker 3: and I said, that's how they do it. So things

1037
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 3: like that, like, it does take time, and it's not

1038
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,240
Speaker 3: as easy as saying I'll set up your two factor.

1039
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 2: You don't know what that means.

1040
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 3: Like, so mum, you know when you try and log

1041
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 3: into your bank account and then you get a text

1042
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 3: message and you have to put a code in, that's

1043
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 3: what two factor because you've got a password and you've

1044
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 3: got your text message. And I said, but you never

1045
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 3: give that code to anybody?

1046
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 2: Oh why not?

1047
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 3: You know, like it takes time, this is the thing,

1048
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 3: and everyone's so busy and you know that's the thing.

1049
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 3: But that's where I would start is really showing real

1050
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,800
Speaker 3: life examples, showing them you know, articles online that you

1051
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 3: might have read, documentaries that you've seen, or sitting down

1052
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 3: and actually taking them through step by steps it's an

1053
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 3: education process and when you think about education, it's not

1054
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 3: going to be solved with a one line or in

1055
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 3: an email.

1056
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.

1057
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: It's complicated, isn't it. We'll finish it for the question

1058
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: question time now. But very briefly, we were talking about AI.

1059
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: How we can use AI to combat these scammers frauds

1060
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: is too. Can you just touch on that very quickly

1061
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:58,359
Speaker 1: because I think this is how we fight back as well.

1062
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have to fight AI with AI. It's not

1063
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 3: going to work otherwise. And there is some incredible there

1064
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,280
Speaker 3: is some incredible work going on. There's one particular company

1065
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:11,359
Speaker 3: in Australia that I've just discovered called Aparthey, and they

1066
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,879
Speaker 3: have created a call center of bots, ten thousand call

1067
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 3: center bots, and they've been working with the Comonwealth Bank.

1068
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 3: I'm sure they're working with other companies as well. But

1069
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 3: the example I know is when a call comes into

1070
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 3: a customer via the Commonwealth Bank number, they are able

1071
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 3: to recognize that it's a scam call and rather than

1072
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 3: just blocking that call, they actually redirect that call of

1073
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 3: the scammer to an army of bots that take the

1074
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 3: call and their AI all different genders ages, sense of

1075
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 3: human nationalities. So there's loads and loads and they basically

1076
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 3: just take them on this long nonsensical conversation to keep

1077
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 3: them busy so that they're not calling you and I.

1078
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 3: But what is really interesting about this solution is that

1079
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 3: by keeping them on the phone and garnering information, they're

1080
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 3: actually collecting data that they can use to provide to

1081
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 3: law enforcement or to other banks. So they will find

1082
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 3: out bank accounts. So there's been account numbers of mule

1083
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 3: accounts where your money will go and sit there for

1084
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 3: about a hot minute and then go off to some

1085
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 3: crypto platform. So what they're actually doing is collecting that information,

1086
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 3: sharing it with other banks to alert them to the

1087
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 3: mule accounts that are sitting within their organizations. They will

1088
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 3: also garner information like a domain, so go to this

1089
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 3: website and do this, this and this and then transfer

1090
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 3: the money, So they're actually getting domain addresses. So not

1091
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 3: only are they keeping them busy so they're not scamming us,

1092
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 3: they're actually collecting really intelligent information. Now this is all

1093
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 3: done by robots. There's you know, dashboards and systems. It

1094
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 3: is absolutely phenomenal. I saw the founder present to actually

1095
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 3: I think he's speaking itself by Southwest present to the

1096
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 3: AFP about a month ago, and it will is absolutely

1097
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 3: phenomenal what they're doing. And I only hope that it

1098
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 3: just grows bigger and bigger and bigger and goes global

1099
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 3: because it's fantastic software.

1100
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 1: Well it might be how we need to fight them. Look,

1101
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank Tracy for sharing the storage and knowledge.

1102
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 1: As I said, every time I sit down with Tracy,

1103
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 1: I come away a little bit wiser. Tracy. If people

1104
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 1: in the audience want to reach out to the type

1105
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 1: of thing that you're doing, then dig even further deeper

1106
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: into what you've been talking about. How can they reach

1107
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: out to?

1108
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 3: LinkedIn is a great way? So Tracy Hall or Instagram

1109
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:37,920
Speaker 3: or my website Tracy Hall dot com, dot AU.

1110
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 1: Okay, well, ladies and gentlemen, let's say it thank Tracy,

1111
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: because I think we've all learned something.

1112
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 6: Thanks.

1113
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 2: Thanks Garry.

1114
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to go look for my walle now find

1115
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: you wallet,