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Speaker 1: This is the Fits in Whip with Kate Richie podcast.

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Speaker 2: The devastating scenes of Bondai Junction. Beyond words or understanding.

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Speaker 2: There was just victims sort of every fifty meters.

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Speaker 1: It was just absolutely chaos.

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Speaker 3: Flags at half Master at the request of course of

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Speaker 3: the Prime Minister today as we think of the families

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Speaker 3: and those that lost their lives on Saturday afternoon at

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Speaker 3: Bondai Junction, a.

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Speaker 1: Very confusing time for anyone that was in Bondai Junction

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Speaker 1: at the time, not knowing what was going on, especially

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Speaker 1: that people for people that work in there. One man

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Speaker 1: who does works in a luggage store on one of

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Speaker 1: the higher levels is Johann Philip and he joins us now. Johanne,

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Speaker 1: thank you very much for coming on the show.

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Speaker 2: Buddy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, can you take us to the point where you

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Speaker 3: realize that something that wasn't your average day at Bondai Junction,

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Speaker 3: it's something had actually gone wrong.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean a lot of few commotion kind of

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Speaker 2: unfolded in front of us. But at one point, after

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Speaker 2: we'd locked ourselves in and we're kind of waiting and

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Speaker 2: to see what had happened, a lady came to the door,

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Speaker 2: banged to kind of be let in, and I looked

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Speaker 2: at her and I was like, well, of course I

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Speaker 2: got a let her in, so quickly unlocked the door

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Speaker 2: to get her in, and as that was happening, the

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Speaker 2: attacker fell behind her and the knife kind of fell

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Speaker 2: down right in front of us, and I looked at

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Speaker 2: this customer was in there with me, and we just

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Speaker 2: went whoa and quickly pulled her and locked the door,

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Speaker 2: and the attacker just got up casually with his the knife,

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Speaker 2: which just about as big as my forearm, and jogged

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Speaker 2: across to another store and then just took out another lady.

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Speaker 2: And at that point we saw that the security guards

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Speaker 2: in front of us had also both been cut open

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Speaker 2: on the floor. And then we're like, well, this is

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Speaker 2: something and we just freaked out completely.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, yeah, Yahan. What time was that, Oh, there.

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Speaker 2: Would have been like a three thirty ish or so

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Speaker 2: something like that.

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Speaker 4: Okay, because I know that when I was in contact

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Speaker 4: with people who who knew people at the center, that

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Speaker 4: it must be it was incredibly confusing to know what

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Speaker 4: was going on. And I know that you were there

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Speaker 4: and you could see things with your own eyes, but

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Speaker 4: what was what was the first lot of information that

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Speaker 4: you were given. I mean, did you did you know

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Speaker 4: that he was he was alone attacker? Like, what on

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Speaker 4: earth did you think was happening?

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Speaker 2: I think that's the thing I didn't realize. I've seen

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Speaker 2: these things on TV before, and you know, in America especially,

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Speaker 2: go oh, this is what I would have done, and

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Speaker 2: this is how it would have gone down. But that's

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Speaker 2: after the facts in front of you. There is just nothing.

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Speaker 2: It's just chaos. There's just people, there's noises, there's things happening,

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Speaker 2: and just nobody knows anything. And only about an hour later,

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Speaker 2: a police officer had walked by stall locked in and

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Speaker 2: it said, yet there was an attacker, we think there's

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Speaker 2: another one play in there. Stay locked. And that's the

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Speaker 2: only information we got the whole day. And then later on,

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Speaker 2: probably some time later, after we kind of saw armed

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Speaker 2: swat and things like that walk by store, we were

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Speaker 2: eventually escorted by police outside. And only after that, at

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Speaker 2: that point we pieced things together by talking to other

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Speaker 2: people who had witnessed things, including you know what, we

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Speaker 2: were placed with the two men who had held the

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Speaker 2: baby before they were taken over by paramedics and things

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Speaker 2: like that. Only then we really pieced together what happened.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, hann let's go back. So when you open

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Speaker 1: that door to let that lady in, and he felt

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Speaker 1: like how far are we talking away? That he was

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Speaker 1: away from you guys, did he spot you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So yeah, Margaret was her name. That was the lady

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Speaker 2: that opened the door for she. He felt the attacker

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Speaker 2: felt like we're talking two arm's length, So it was

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Speaker 2: it was very very close to time. But he fell

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Speaker 2: with his back to us, on his right side, and

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Speaker 2: so he was looking away. And of course, after we

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Speaker 2: pulled Margaret in and locked the door, me and James,

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Speaker 2: the customer that was with me, we were just froze to

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Speaker 2: just see if you would us, because it's just it's

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Speaker 2: all glass doors and windows, and like he would have

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Speaker 2: definitely seen us, and he didn't. He just landed up

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Speaker 2: picking up the knife and like jogging past, and so

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Speaker 2: he kind of hid behind like a cement boulder type

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Speaker 2: thing which is part of the store. And I just

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Speaker 2: saw him point blank open up another lady on the

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Speaker 2: other side.

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Speaker 1: Was it was he saying anything, Johan, Was he yelling

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Speaker 1: anything out or no? He was just quite calm. No.

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Speaker 2: Lots of people have asked that, and no, he was very,

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Speaker 2: very still and very calm. Even when he fell over.

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Speaker 2: He got up pretty you know, nonchalant me and went

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Speaker 2: about his day. I mean, I think now we know

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Speaker 2: that he was schizophrenic, or at least that was something

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Speaker 2: i'd seen online. I don't know, but yeah, he seemed

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Speaker 2: pretty still to me.

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Speaker 4: Okay, and when you said that he fell, that was

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Speaker 4: just from his own stumbling or he'd lost a footing.

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Speaker 4: He hadn't been pushed or that's the thing.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that for a fact. I mean, somebody

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Speaker 2: suggest well someby sitter, that he was actually lunging at Margaret.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't I'm not sure. I know

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Speaker 2: he had just also sliced open the two security guards

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Speaker 2: at that point, and and you know, all this happened

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Speaker 2: in less than two point five seconds, so I don't

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Speaker 2: know how he actually went down at that point. It

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Speaker 2: is possible if security guards are the ones that had,

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Speaker 2: for you know, sort of tussled with him to lead

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Speaker 2: to that, but I'm sure there'll be footage of that

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Speaker 2: in the near future.

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Speaker 4: Okay, when you're talking about the doors being shut and

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Speaker 4: letting the woman Margaret in, can you explain to us

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Speaker 4: what the security is like there, because there's a lot

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Speaker 4: of stories about doors shutting automatically, so that the doors,

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Speaker 4: the doors of the store that you worked in, did

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Speaker 4: you have to were you given some kind of signal

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Speaker 4: to lock those doors or do they happen.

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Speaker 2: So in the in the bigger kind of department store

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Speaker 2: style ones, David Jones, My understanding is here they have

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Speaker 2: shut the doors that rolled down. It seemed like, okay,

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Speaker 2: Marter a big double because they're much bigger. Ours would

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Speaker 2: be considered like a boutique store. So it's two doors,

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Speaker 2: we lock it, we have the key, and so no,

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Speaker 2: there's nothing's automated about it. When there is like an

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Speaker 2: emergency evacuation sign the bigger department stores have emergency exits

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Speaker 2: and things like that, so the shutters generally go down

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Speaker 2: and everybody goes out through the emergency exits. But stores

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Speaker 2: like oh, we have to go out the front, lock

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Speaker 2: the main doors and then and then leave that way.

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Speaker 2: So we just, yeah, we just locked ourselves in, which

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Speaker 2: was yeah, really was. It was my choice to do

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Speaker 2: that at that point.

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Speaker 3: Johan, do you know you mentioned the two security guards.

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Speaker 3: You know, if one of them was the man for

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Speaker 3: az Sahar who was actually killed. He unfortunately died. Do

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Speaker 3: you know if that was him?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe, Yeah, I believe that was him. I

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Speaker 2: think we saw both of them kind of walk two

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Speaker 2: of them walk up as this lady Margaret had banged

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Speaker 2: on the door and in the five four seconds that

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Speaker 2: we'd let her in and we then realized that the

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Speaker 2: battack obviously falog. We looked up and I believe his

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Speaker 2: name as far as as he was on the floor

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Speaker 2: bleeding out, and it just it all just happened so quickly.

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Speaker 3: This was a man. This was a man. If you're

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Speaker 3: not aware, Johann who had fled Pakistan for his own

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Speaker 3: safety in Australia twelve months ago and it was his

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Speaker 3: first day on the job at Donda Junction as a.

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Speaker 2: Security Ye I read something to that effect. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I really yeah. That story to me is a lot

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Speaker 2: and I myself from a microan. I moved from the

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Speaker 2: seas to Australia years ago and try to, you know,

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Speaker 2: do something in my life. And it's kind of crazy

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Speaker 2: to flee somewhere like Pakistan and then to land up

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Speaker 2: in a situation like this.

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Speaker 1: How are you, Johann? I want to ask you, because

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Speaker 1: last night I was thinking of something some of the

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Speaker 1: scenes that you would have seen leaving that place yesterday,

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Speaker 1: or what you saw. Mate. I don't know how you

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Speaker 1: slept last night, and I know that that is something

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Speaker 1: that you will never be able to raise from your memory.

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Speaker 1: So how are you feeling?

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Speaker 2: I didn't sleep the night before at all. And somebody

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Speaker 2: said to me this morning that I was on the project.

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Speaker 2: And I didn't even realize that, to be honest, until

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Speaker 2: I saw it. And even then I was like, who

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Speaker 2: is talking? What is happening? When did that happen? I

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Speaker 2: kind of slept last night and this morning I went, oh, gosh,

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Speaker 2: what are you doing? Were like at this point, it

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Speaker 2: seems a little bit, you know, talking on radio. I

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Speaker 2: think I've seems to indulgent. Yeah, yeah, just a bit lucky,

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Speaker 2: and just like, what am I doing?

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Speaker 4: Look, I think I think just so you know, I

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Speaker 4: know what you mean. It feels as though, why am

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Speaker 4: I telling the stories of other people? But this is

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Speaker 4: also your story? And I know that people are asking

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Speaker 4: these questions, and people were in contact, whether whether it

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Speaker 4: was with you or just amongst groups of friends yesterday,

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Speaker 4: asking as many questions because they.

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Speaker 1: Just really, they really care.

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Speaker 4: I think that all of Sydney yesterday was thinking about

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Speaker 4: people like you, about the family of the mother who passed.

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Speaker 4: They want to know about the baby. They want so

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Speaker 4: just so you know, I hope that it sits a

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Speaker 4: little better with you because it comes from a place

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Speaker 4: of absolute care and gratefulness that people weren't there themselves.

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Speaker 1: It's just awful.

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Speaker 3: I think too, Johan, your story helps piece it together

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Speaker 3: for everybody, because I think we will sit here in

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Speaker 3: complete disbelief. So you're adding the pieces to the puzzle.

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Speaker 3: The person you saw the attacker take off to then

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Speaker 3: go and further attack. Do you know who that was?

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Speaker 3: Was it? Did you mention it was a woman? Correct

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Speaker 3: me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, it was a lady. She was wearing a

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Speaker 2: blue top. I think that was a lady that was

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Speaker 2: just having the shoulder. I think it might even be

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Speaker 2: the lady that Andrew read the bono Lifeguard land up helping. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think so. Again, I don't know, like it'll be

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Speaker 2: pieced together a little bit more because when we walked

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Speaker 2: out of the store, when we finally escorted out, there

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Speaker 2: were essentially bodies everywhere. Our floor was and we had.

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Speaker 2: We walked through the crime scene, if you like, because

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Speaker 2: the shooter was above us and had been shot, so

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Speaker 2: there was something else happening upstairs, and so we passed

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Speaker 2: a number of bodies and just a lot of the

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Speaker 2: carnage at that point. So I don't know where exactly

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Speaker 2: that was, but from our vent, from our vanish point,

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Speaker 2: from my right, there was one person on the ground,

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Speaker 2: and on the left there was a security guard, two

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Speaker 2: other bodies of the cafe, and one all the way

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Speaker 2: on the other side where the coals escalators were.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, there must have been many moments of just

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Speaker 4: the confusion of not knowing what to do. If you're

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Speaker 4: saying that the doors are shut and there are people

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Speaker 4: on the other side of the glass that you don't

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Speaker 4: know whether should I be putting my hand up to help.

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Speaker 4: Is there an instinct to get out there and help,

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Speaker 4: but then also be concerned for your own safe I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, I think if any any other members of the

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Speaker 2: public or something like that would have come to the doors,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think me and even the other people

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Speaker 2: the still would have wanted to let them in. But

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Speaker 2: once we had locked the doors the second time, once

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Speaker 2: Margaret was in, we all kind of disappeared the back

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Speaker 2: and were quiet because we were afraid there was a gun.

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Speaker 2: And then not long after that we did hear gunshots,

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Speaker 2: so then we didn't we didn't. We didn't come out

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Speaker 2: of the back for a while, so nobody would have

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Speaker 2: been known to enter or try to get into the store,

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Speaker 2: because it would have seemed like there was no one there,

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Speaker 2: but everyone was just running past to get out, as

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Speaker 2: opposed to try and get into a store.

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Speaker 3: Another thing, too, is I mean I was there about

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Speaker 3: a week ago and the alarm was going off yep,

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Speaker 3: and I think you want to And I only thought

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Speaker 3: of this when I saw the footage and I heard

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Speaker 3: the same alarm ringing, and in those moments, I think

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Speaker 3: you want to believe that everything's okay. And therefore I

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Speaker 3: was there in the family and in my mind, I went, well,

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Speaker 3: we can't see any smoke, so I won't really react

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Speaker 3: or continue. On our day of shopping. There was no

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Speaker 3: announcement to whether it was a training drill or an

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Speaker 3: exercise that had been planned, and so if for a

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Speaker 3: lot of shoppers, I think, you know, Australians like to

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Speaker 3: believe that everything's okay, and we should believe that everything's okay.

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Speaker 3: These things are rarety. But in that moment, I'm sure

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of people that continued about the day

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Speaker 3: and thought, well, I can't see any danger, so I

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Speaker 3: won't act now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's I mean, we did exactly the same

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Speaker 2: thing that this would have been. I've been at this

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Speaker 2: center now probably eight months, eight nine months. It would

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Speaker 2: probably be the fistingest time the alarm's gone off and

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Speaker 2: it's never been anything ever, and you know, ordinary will

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Speaker 2: wait and then we'll get an announced and saying oh sorry, guys,

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Speaker 2: something trip, something offuls alarm. But again, yea, even when

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Speaker 2: it was going until we saw the signs on the

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Speaker 2: all the kind of directories changed to please evacuate, please evacuate,

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Speaker 2: then we were like, okay, I haven't seen this before.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you very much for opening up to us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we know how difficult that is. That's something that

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Speaker 1: you will never be able to erase from your memory, mate,

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Speaker 1: But we really appreciate you coming on the shower and

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Speaker 1: sharing your story this morning.

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Speaker 2: No worries. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Take Books.

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Speaker 3: Fits in Whipper with Kate Ritchie is a Nova podcast

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Speaker 3: to walk great shows like this. Download the Nova player

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Speaker 3: via the app store or Google Play.

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Speaker 2: The Nova player