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Speaker 1: I get our team, David Gillespie, Tiffany and Cook, Craig,

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Speaker 1: Anthony Harper, and you the audience, our audience. Let's start

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Speaker 1: with the absent tee who has fucking graciously decided to

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Speaker 1: swander it through the typ door for the first time

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Speaker 1: in forever. Where have you been cooked?

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Speaker 2: Oh? What is this carry on? You're talking about?

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Speaker 1: Now? Well, me and gillespa I'm talking about I seem

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Speaker 1: to have had a lot of conversations. I'd say the

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Speaker 1: last three have been me and Dave.

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Speaker 3: So that's six weeks.

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Speaker 1: That's six weeks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry, Sorry, Gillaspo, that long.

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Speaker 3: I'll devastate. Well, I don't know whether that's accurate, but

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Speaker 3: it has been a long time. That's right.

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Speaker 1: It's not all about you, Tip. I mean he's got needs,

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Speaker 1: he's got podcast needs. Sure, he's got a wife in

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Speaker 1: twenty seven kids and nineteen children. But I mean you're

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Speaker 1: his cyber girlfriend. You need to show up every now

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Speaker 1: your's virtual kind of dream.

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Speaker 3: You don't know now that she's here.

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Speaker 2: Imaginary relationships are my favorite. They are my expertise lo

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Speaker 2: on commitment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you were telling us before we went live that

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Speaker 1: the last relationship you had was six months long and

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Speaker 1: he didn't know about it.

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Speaker 2: I know the relationship wasn't six months long. That was

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Speaker 2: we lived together for six months or maybe a year.

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Speaker 2: The relationship was longer than that.

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Speaker 1: No, No, the one before that where you said you

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Speaker 1: were in a relationship but he didn't know.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh, that's most of them. That's most of them

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Speaker 2: pretty quickly if they find out about it.

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Speaker 1: That's hilarious. Ah, dear, Hey, how old were you when

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Speaker 1: you got married?

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Speaker 3: Gillespo very young by today's standards. I think I was

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Speaker 3: twenty two, maybe twenty three.

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Speaker 1: That is, that is young.

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Speaker 2: That is aby face, not.

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Speaker 3: As young as my wife was two years younger than me.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Wow, it still is amazingly, wow, amazingly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's funny that it's a constant. Did you

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Speaker 1: were you religious or something or you just know what.

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Speaker 3: Back in the day and you would remember this? Great

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Speaker 3: because I feel we're a similar age. Yes, that back

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Speaker 3: in the day. That's what kids? Did you know? You

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Speaker 3: left home and you got a job and you got married.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true, that's true.

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Speaker 2: I engaged you have what age were you engaged?

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Speaker 1: Now? That is a very good question. Tiffany and Cook

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Speaker 1: who could imagine me engaged. But yes, I was engaged

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Speaker 1: at I'm going to say twenty one or maybe twenty two,

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Speaker 1: I think twenty one.

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Speaker 3: And was that unusual?

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Speaker 1: That was even? That was even? I mean, okay, so

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Speaker 1: that was twenty one, twenty one, so that was nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty four, so that was still a long time ago,

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Speaker 1: forty years ago. But yeah, that was That was a

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Speaker 1: little earlier than normal, but it wasn't ridiculous. But I

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Speaker 1: will say the rationale behind that decision was I was

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Speaker 1: in my very churchy phase where everyone I was in

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Speaker 1: a church where every one got married young.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, it wasn't a particular religious thing to me.

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Speaker 3: So we got married in nineteen ninety and it was

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Speaker 3: not an unusual thing for people in the early twenties

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Speaker 3: to be being married.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, yeah, well, and I mean, I know this

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Speaker 1: is not what we're talking about. But by the way,

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Speaker 1: didn't that shout out to Janine, my ex fiance, didn't

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Speaker 1: you dodge a bullet? Jeanine? Lucky you ock? Now she's

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Speaker 1: been breathing a sigh of hard sire let for forty

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Speaker 1: years And what was I going to say? Yeah? I

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Speaker 1: think that what's the average age now where people get.

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Speaker 3: Married, it's well north of thirty three. The last time

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Speaker 3: I looked it was thirty three, but it was going

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Speaker 3: out quickly.

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Speaker 1: And didn't you say that the average age that ladies

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Speaker 1: having or giving birth.

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Speaker 3: For the first time, isty, it's now into the I

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Speaker 3: think it's around thirty five. Yeah. Wow, which starts to

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Speaker 3: run into a bit of a biological reality which we

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Speaker 3: can talk about a different show, which is that when

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Speaker 3: you look at the statistics on birth defects, they travel

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Speaker 3: along just fine sort of. I mean, the best time

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Speaker 3: to have a child obviously is when you're fourteen, but

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Speaker 3: the law has something to say about that from a

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Speaker 3: biological perspective. But you know, you're pretty good from a

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Speaker 3: health perspective right up through the twenties, early thirties, And

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Speaker 3: but the starts to take a nasty turn at about

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Speaker 3: thirty five, so you know, we're starting to run into

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Speaker 3: that being a real problem for a lot of people,

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Speaker 3: whereas before so when I and my better half were married,

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Speaker 3: he was really unusual for people to be having their

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Speaker 3: in their mid thirties. Wow.

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Speaker 1: If this is a weird question, and you can feel

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Speaker 1: free to cut this out of the show, because you're

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Speaker 1: the editor. If you could miraculously, if you could miraculously

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Speaker 1: have a healthy kid, like a baby that was yours

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Speaker 1: and some super genetically blessed donor, would you do that?

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Speaker 1: If you could have a kid like because you're forty one?

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Speaker 2: No, No, I've never wanted one. I've never wanted a child.

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Speaker 2: But funnily enough, earlier this week I interviewed a girl

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Speaker 2: who runs the Solo Mum Society. So there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of mums getting sperm donors and having children on their

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Speaker 2: own and doing away with that whole concept of prince charming.

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Speaker 1: Yeah wow, Yeah, well that's probably not a great idea,

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Speaker 1: the prince charming idea anyway, is it? Because there aren't

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Speaker 1: too many Dave and yeah David, Dave's married and I've

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Speaker 1: got issues, so fucker now. It's about as prince charming

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Speaker 1: as I can. Jack the ripper I am. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: all right, so let's get on to tonight's topic. You

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Speaker 1: sent me an article which I thought was very interesting,

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Speaker 1: and it was talking about this idea of a video

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Speaker 1: game form of treatment for adults with ADHD which had

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Speaker 1: just been approved by cleared by whatever we want to

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Speaker 1: call it. The FDA, the US Food and Drug Administration.

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Speaker 1: Let's unpack that, doctor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a couple of really interesting aspects of this.

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Speaker 3: I guess the surface level one is that you've got

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Speaker 3: the FDA, who are the people who approved drugs approving

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Speaker 3: a treatment that isn't a drug, it's a video game.

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Speaker 3: And that's interesting in itself, and we'll come back to that.

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Speaker 3: But have we entered the age of digital drugs where

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Speaker 3: the reality that you and I have been talking about

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Speaker 3: now for years, which is that you don't need to

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Speaker 3: be taking a substance to be an addict, and yet

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Speaker 3: until now almost well all treatments that you're likely to

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Speaker 3: be given by a doctor for addiction or anxiety or

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Speaker 3: depression or ADHD is substance based. So and we've I

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Speaker 3: know we've done episodes before about ADHD, but a little

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Speaker 3: bit of a refresher on what the science says is

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Speaker 3: going on there. I mean, we're in the middle of

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Speaker 3: an ADHD epidemic. There's been reports even today about how

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Speaker 3: one in twenty Australians are affected by ADHD. It's a

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Speaker 3: massively growing diagnosis and the prescription of the only drug

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Speaker 3: treatment for it, which is rittleen or things like it,

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Speaker 3: which you know, as we've discussed before, is speed. It's

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Speaker 3: an mpetterment and you know, on the street it would

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Speaker 3: be called speed, and but in the pharmacy it's called riddlin.

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Speaker 3: And I want to talk a little bit about why

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Speaker 3: that works. So we know that ridlan does work. It

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Speaker 3: really does work. It works on a very short term basis,

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Speaker 3: in that it only works for about four hours. But

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Speaker 3: let's talk about the definition of works and what's in

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Speaker 3: fact going on with ADHD. So ADHD is an inability

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Speaker 3: to focus for extended periods of time, so you lose

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Speaker 3: the ability to focus. And you know, you know, psychologists

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Speaker 3: and people who like talking rubbish about mental health conditions.

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Speaker 1: He's talking about me. Everyone.

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Speaker 3: Yep, we'll say things like, oh, well, that's caused by

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Speaker 3: you know, that's this modern media environment where you know,

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Speaker 3: news is presented in three second clips and if there's

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Speaker 3: not a visual with it, it's not news. And and you know,

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Speaker 3: no wonder, everyone's got a short attention span EO and

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Speaker 3: everyone's got ADHD. So that's the narrative answer to that.

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Speaker 3: But thankfully there's a biochemical answer as well, which is

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Speaker 3: significantly more convincing, which is that what ADHD probably is

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Speaker 3: is in fact dopamine resistance, and I need to explain

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Speaker 3: that a little bit. So what happens is that when

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Speaker 3: you're exposed to an extremely stressful environment, you have a

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Speaker 3: system of adapting to that in your brain, which increases

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Speaker 3: your resistance to the dopamine input that you're going to

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Speaker 3: be getting from those stresses. So every time you're exposed

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Speaker 3: to anything that stresses you, you'll get a shot of

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Speaker 3: dopamine every time that happens. If it starts happening really,

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Speaker 3: really frequently, then you become resistant to the dopamine so

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Speaker 3: that you don't overreact to an environment where there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of stress. And we've talked about this before. If

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Speaker 3: you're in a war zone, you don't want to be

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Speaker 3: jumping out of your skin every time you hear an explosion.

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Speaker 3: You just want to be jumping out of your skin

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Speaker 3: when you hear the ones that are likely to hurt you.

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Speaker 3: So that's the way the brain's way of filtering out

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Speaker 3: the background noise of danger, and the same thing happens

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Speaker 3: on the reward side of the brain with exactly the

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Speaker 3: same mechanism. So whenever we do something that gives us pleasure,

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Speaker 3: we also get a hit of dopamine, and the brain

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Speaker 3: adjusts that if we're getting them frequently. So for an

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Speaker 3: environment where there's a lot of pleasurable things going on,

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Speaker 3: where there's plenty of food to eat, where there's plenty

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Speaker 3: of sex to have, where's all that sort of thing,

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Speaker 3: then our brain starts moderating that and making us resistant

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Speaker 3: to those dopamine things so that we don't overreact, so

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Speaker 3: that we don't chase every possible pleasure, we only chase

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Speaker 3: the really good ones. And we call la state of

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Speaker 3: the brain addiction. The trouble is that the thing that

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Speaker 3: sets the resistance point, the thing that says how much

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Speaker 3: dopamine we need, stays high for three months from when

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Speaker 3: the last dopamine hit occurred. And if it's sitting there

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Speaker 3: too high, there's a number of consequences for our brain.

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Speaker 3: But one of them is that our brain thinks it

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Speaker 3: needs more doper mean to focus than it actually does.

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Speaker 3: So because we're dopamine resistant, we need a lot of

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Speaker 3: dopamine to remain focused. But the brain says no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: we're not getting enough no dope mean, and we can't focus.

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Speaker 3: And what I've just described. There is ADHD, which is

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Speaker 3: an inability to focus. Now in boys, that usually manifests

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Speaker 3: as physical activity, which is what it used to be

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Speaker 3: called hyperactivity. It used to be called, you know, hyperactivity

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Speaker 3: syndrome or something like that, and in girls it's often

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Speaker 3: character it often looks more like daydreaming. So they're not

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Speaker 3: they're not running around or hitting people. They're just spacing

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Speaker 3: out because they're unable to focus in, you know, on

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Speaker 3: some things, so they're just jumping from thought to thought

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Speaker 3: to thought without actually doing anything. The boys are doing

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Speaker 3: the same thing, but they're also manifesting a physical activity.

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Speaker 3: So that's what ADHD is, and that leads you to

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Speaker 3: the obvious treatment to it, which is, well, why don't

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Speaker 3: you just give them a dopening hit. I mean, if

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Speaker 3: the brain is saying we don't have enough dopamine to focus,

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Speaker 3: then give them some dopamine. And so some very smart

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Speaker 3: fellow almost by accident in the nineteen forties, came across

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Speaker 3: the fact that soldiers were given amphetamines to focus, and

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Speaker 3: so they thought, why don't we try this on kids

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Speaker 3: who've got this condition? And if you go, they did

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Speaker 3: that and it was like magic. They had kids sitting

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Speaker 3: in classrooms who couldn't focus for the life of them,

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Speaker 3: couldn't do anything, couldn't achieve anything because of their ADHD.

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Speaker 3: They gave them some amphetamine and bang, they're just back

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Speaker 3: to normal, instantly, perfectly perfect cure. The problem was, it

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Speaker 3: only us as long as the emphetamine stays in their system,

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Speaker 3: which is about four hours, So they're perfectly cured for

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Speaker 3: four hours and then they're back to the way they were.

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Speaker 3: And so the people when they first noticed this said, Okay, well,

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Speaker 3: this will help for a kid who really needs to

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Speaker 3: learn something and needs to focus on something, needs to

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Speaker 3: get something done in school. But this isn't a cure.

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Speaker 3: In fact, it's the opposite of a cure, because what

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Speaker 3: we're actually doing is ramping up their dopamine resistance every

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Speaker 3: time we do this, because we are actually giving them

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Speaker 3: a hit of dopamine which increases their dopminions. Is so

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Speaker 3: long term it's a bad idea because we're actually making

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Speaker 3: the problem worse. But in the short term it's a

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Speaker 3: terrific idea because it makes the kid controllable, it makes

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Speaker 3: them focused, It may improve their cognitive performance, their thinking skills,

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Speaker 3: their ability to focus, the ability to get things done.

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Speaker 3: So initially, when it was discovered in the nineteen forties,

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Speaker 3: the doctors who discovered it said, yeah, okay, it works great,

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Speaker 3: but we don't really want to be giving this to kids.

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Speaker 3: Let's come up with a different solution. And for many,

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Speaker 3: many years they did use a different solution, which was

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Speaker 3: to just take the dopamine producing things out of their lives.

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Speaker 3: So what they did was they sent these kids off

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Speaker 3: to farm type schools and things like that. Well, this

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Speaker 3: was no stimulation other than you know, you go and

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Speaker 3: you play in the outdoors and so on. And what

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Speaker 3: they're effectively doing was giving them three months of rehab,

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Speaker 3: getting them away from the dopamine stimulus, getting them away

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Speaker 3: from the stresses and so on, and those kids were

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Speaker 3: returning to normal that way. It took longer, but ultimately

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Speaker 3: was a longer term cure too. Okay, roundabout way of

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Speaker 3: talking about this press release, which is some smart character

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Speaker 3: in this company, this is a startup company that has

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Speaker 3: done this thing, has said, well, look, if you can

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Speaker 3: give a kid a dopamine hit with speed, just do

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Speaker 3: it the way every kid's doing it now, which is

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Speaker 3: with gaming. So there you go, instant instant drug that shit.

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Speaker 3: If all of everything I just said is true, if

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Speaker 3: all of that is true, then anything that produces a

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Speaker 3: dopamine hit should have the same effect and should give

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Speaker 3: benefits to a kid on ADHD, at least immediate benefits.

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Speaker 3: And so these people have said, well, hey, why produce

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Speaker 3: a drug, Why get into the business of selling amphetamines.

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Speaker 3: Why not just do what the gaming industry already does,

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Speaker 3: which is provide artificial stimulation of dopamines. Now, they could

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Speaker 3: have done this with gambling, they could have done it

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Speaker 3: with social media. They've chosen gaming, and they've done some

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Speaker 3: really high faluting studies which you can read if you

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Speaker 3: feel like it. There are links in that press release

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Speaker 3: I sent you where you can track through it actually

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Speaker 3: see the study they did. What they've done is Inventor game, which,

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Speaker 3: by the way, you can download There's a link in

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Speaker 3: that press release and you can probably follow that through.

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Speaker 3: You can download it this thing. It works from the

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Speaker 3: app store on Google and all that sort of thing.

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Speaker 3: And you'll look at it and you'll say to yourself, well,

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Speaker 3: this is just a game. This is a game just

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Speaker 3: like any other game that I could play. You know,

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Speaker 3: first person, you know you're going through a maze type thing,

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Speaker 3: dodging things and all that sort of thing. It's designed

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Speaker 3: to be addictive. It's designed to produce a dopa mean hit.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, before you rush out and get it,

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Speaker 3: kids itself administering this cure all the time. So kids

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Speaker 3: are doing this all day, every day. They're giving themselves

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Speaker 3: their own dopa mean hits. They don't have to go

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Speaker 3: out and buy riddle and to do it. They can

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Speaker 3: do it on a game. And they will all tell you,

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Speaker 3: just like a smoker will tell you or a drinker

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Speaker 3: will tell you, that this is stress relieving behavior and

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Speaker 3: they feel better when they do it. And the other

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Speaker 3: thing that they might not have measured, but these folks,

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Speaker 3: because it's their business, have actually measured is they think

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Speaker 3: better when they do it too. And you might say, okay, well,

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Speaker 3: before we start rushing off and signing up, you know

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Speaker 3: our kids would just be playing games all day long

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Speaker 3: to cure their ADHD. You've got to remember the downside

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Speaker 3: and the reason why the folks who initially discovered riddlin

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Speaker 3: didn't keep doing it, because ultimately what you're doing is

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Speaker 3: making the problem worse. And so the bizarre thing is

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Speaker 3: where now in an age of what I call digital drugging,

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Speaker 3: where now suddenly the cure of ADHD is going to

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Speaker 3: be anything that stimulates dopamine. And whilst that might be

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Speaker 3: a bit of a danger to the folks who manufacture

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Speaker 3: facture Riddlin, it's an even bigger danger to the rest

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Speaker 3: of us, because now we're actually saying the cure to

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Speaker 3: ADHD is to make people even more dopamine resistant. And

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Speaker 3: you might tell you what's the downside to that, You know,

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Speaker 3: why is that a problem? Well, the problem is that

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Speaker 3: in creating addicts, the other things that happen are really

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Speaker 3: really bad consequences for the individual and society because the

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Speaker 3: brain in that state of dopamine resistance is a brain

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Speaker 3: that's highly anxious, highly depressed, and on its way to

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Speaker 3: psychosis and schizophrenia.

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Speaker 1: And also, imagine if you remove that drug in inverted commas,

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Speaker 1: that electronic drug, then they're going to if all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden you say no, you can't play this game.

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Speaker 1: Now you've got someone in with rural. Now you've got

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Speaker 1: somebody who's you know, in chaos and who's.

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Speaker 3: And anyone who's ever had anything to do with a

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Speaker 3: fourteen year old kid who's gaming and then suddenly says

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Speaker 3: to them, you're not going to be doing that anymore,

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Speaker 3: that they'll be able to relate to you that that's

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Speaker 3: not one of the most pleasant experiences of.

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Speaker 1: Their lives and with you like, it's funny that the

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Speaker 1: FDA literally Food and Drug Administration, that's who that that

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Speaker 1: was the go to organization to clear this.

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Speaker 3: Te and it's been cleared as a drug. Effectively, it's

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Speaker 3: it's something administered as a treatment for attention deficit disorder,

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Speaker 3: so you know, it's got a proper drug type name

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Speaker 3: a K L to T zero one. And you know,

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Speaker 3: the game itself sounds like a drug. Actually it's If

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Speaker 3: you go and download the game, it's a what is

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Speaker 3: it endeavor OTC is the name of the game, and

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Speaker 3: you download it and it looks like something like Fortnite

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Speaker 3: or something. It's it's just a game. But when you

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Speaker 3: read the studies on it, you know, they say, oh

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Speaker 3: that you know this is this is this might look

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Speaker 3: like a game, but what it's actually doing is stimulating

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Speaker 3: you know, the prefrontal cortex of the which is another

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Speaker 3: way of saying that actually it's built on a selective

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Speaker 3: stimulus management and engine, which is the core technology designed

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Speaker 3: to stimulate and activate the fronto parental net varietal network. So,

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Speaker 3: in other words, a dictive.

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Speaker 1: I feel like there's a complete blurring of the lines

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Speaker 1: here with like calling that a drug. Obviously it's not

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Speaker 1: a drug, but also.

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Speaker 3: It's a digital drug.

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Speaker 1: Well if now the drugs aren't digital, so it's not

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Speaker 1: a drug.

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Speaker 3: But kind of we're getting into the realm here where

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Speaker 3: not a drug? No, No, let's talk about.

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Speaker 1: A drug, not a drug. Evaping is still doing something physiologically,

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Speaker 1: well physically, well, yes, it's got a finger, it's got a.

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Speaker 3: Crooked little there's a question from Tiff.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's back down the hatches.

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Speaker 2: Everybody, boys, sit down?

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Speaker 1: What is it?

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Speaker 2: If it is between kids just scrolling on social media

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Speaker 2: every day, why is that not a drug? And what

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Speaker 2: that's not helping ADHD? So why is this game helping

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Speaker 2: or is it just another pack of people making up

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Speaker 2: rubbish and making money off it.

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Speaker 3: No, it does help, and the scrolling on social media

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Speaker 3: helps too, because while the kids are actually doing it,

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Speaker 3: they will tell you I feel better when I'm doing that.

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Speaker 3: It's when they get off it that they say I

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Speaker 3: am in withdrawal from it.

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Speaker 1: Well, he's not saying if he's not saying that it

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Speaker 1: helps over the long term, it definitely doesn't help. It's

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Speaker 1: actually a problem.

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Speaker 2: But the reason it's help, saying is is because they

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Speaker 2: don't have to get anything done. How does this help

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Speaker 2: them focus on what they need to focus on and

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Speaker 2: actually get a result?

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Speaker 1: It does, while they could they could have done the

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Speaker 1: same research with Fortnite and got the same outcome. They

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Speaker 1: then called that an electronic intervention for treating bloody ADHD

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Speaker 1: as well just.

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Speaker 3: Give it a bottle of vo then, well that would

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Speaker 3: work too. Yep. Well, look we're giving them speed at

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Speaker 3: the moment, so you know, in essence, what's the difference.

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Speaker 3: It's it's interesting in a way that this is a

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Speaker 3: sort of an admission that that's what they're treating and

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Speaker 3: how they're treating it. So by giving them a game

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Speaker 3: that stimulates dopamine in exactly the same way as a

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Speaker 3: drug does, they're saying, well, the dopamine stimulation is the

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Speaker 3: important part of addiction, and we're being distracted by the

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Speaker 3: substance type associations with it. So if you think Craig

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Speaker 3: about smoking and vaping, now the problem with smoking, people say, well,

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Speaker 3: you shouldn't smoke. They don't say you shouldn't smoke because

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Speaker 3: it's addictive, although they kind of do. But it's the

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Speaker 3: reason people shouldn't smoke is because of all the damage

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Speaker 3: that is done by the side effects of the substance.

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Speaker 3: So it gives you lung cancer, it gives your heart disease,

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Speaker 3: you know, it wrecks your breath, you know all those

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Speaker 3: great things about it. And often the argument for vaping

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Speaker 3: is it doesn't do any of those things. It just

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Speaker 3: delivers the nicotine, which is the addictive, but it doesn't

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Speaker 3: cure the addiction at all, but it gets rid of

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Speaker 3: all those other things which are associated with the substance itself.

401
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Speaker 3: And then there's this sort of assumption, well, are we

402
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Speaker 3: suggesting then that the addiction, the pure addiction, the nicotine,

403
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 3: doesn't damage you. The answer is it does. And in

404
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 3: a way, this is kind of the same thing, because

405
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 3: there are lots of substance type side effects from giving

406
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 3: people speed, but this is a cleaner way of doing

407
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 3: it innocence in that you're giving them the dopamine hit

408
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Speaker 3: without the substance side effects. So in a way they're saying, well,

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Speaker 3: isn't it better to be just a pure addict to

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Speaker 3: the dopamine rather than the substance that's delivering the dopamine hit.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if we I mean, you know how with

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Speaker 1: all medications, when you get it, it comes with a

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Speaker 1: basically a leaflet that tells you about the potential you know,

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Speaker 1: the more likely and less likely side effects. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there are still side effects of this, So there are still.

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Speaker 3: Negative a big there are big side effects. But going

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Speaker 3: back to TIFF's point about why don't you just give

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Speaker 3: them a bottle of vodka, Well, because there are side

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Speaker 3: effects from drinking vodka that have nothing to do with

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Speaker 3: the addiction. So, you know, you get drunk, you'll fall down,

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Speaker 3: you'll have car accidents, all of those sorts of things

422
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 3: that have nothing to do with being an addict. The

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Speaker 3: side effects. Yeah, so are we back to tests love life?

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Speaker 1: Are we We're back to TIFFs Saturdays? Anyway?

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Speaker 3: But people almost say by focusing on the side effects,

426
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Speaker 3: are ignoring the primary problem, which is that when you

427
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Speaker 3: addict the human brain, when you put it in that

428
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 3: state of dopamine resistance, you are making it significantly more anxious,

429
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Speaker 3: significantly more depressed, more likely to be prior to suicide,

430
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Speaker 3: more likely to end up in a psychotic state and

431
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 3: ultimately schizophrenic. So we are in the middle of a

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Speaker 3: massive wave of increases in anxiety, depression, suicide, psychosis, schizophrenia

433
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: in our society because we've suddenly given access, and I

434
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 3: mean suddenly in the last ten years, access to highly

435
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 3: addictive things to every teenager, which is the prime age

436
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 3: for addiction. So it's not cleaner in that sense. It's

437
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 3: cleaner in the sense that they're not consuming substances, but

438
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 3: it isn't cleaner in the real consequence of addiction is

439
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 3: not the side effects from the substances. It's the anxiety, depression, suicide, schizophrenia,

440
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 3: psychosis that's the problem. And the ADHD. Obviously it's I

441
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 3: like how.

442
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: When I say like, I've put an asterisk next to that.

443
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: I like how they've video game treatment for adults with ADHD.

444
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 1: And I listened to this everyone, how they've written this,

445
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: You'd think this was the best thing. Ever, the FDA

446
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: recently cleared the Digital Therapeutic Endeavor OTC in brackets aklto

447
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: one and over the counter treatment for adults with a

448
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: tension deficit hyperactivity disorder. It through a video game experience

449
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: sounds wonderful. Ak LT one is indicated for adults with

450
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 1: primary inattentive or combined type ADHD who've demonstrated attention issues.

451
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: The studies supported ak l TO one's clearance showed an

452
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: improvement in focus of eighty three percent in two hundred

453
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: and twenty one participants with a verified diagnosis of blah

454
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: blah blah, seventy two point five reported and improvement in

455
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: quality of life and forty five point absent met a

456
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: pre specified threshold for clinically meaningful improvement. You'd think that

457
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: it was a fucking wonder drug, David. It is like,

458
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: this is so positive, this article.

459
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, but if your metrics are those which is does

460
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 3: this thing improve focus? They're the same metrics that are

461
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 3: being used for ridlin, and the answer is yes, it

462
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 3: does improve focus. There's an asterisk after that, as there

463
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 3: is after this, which is, oh, by the way, it

464
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 3: wrecks you long term. But if your measure is does

465
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 3: this improve focus in the two to three hours after

466
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 3: it's consumed, the answer is it definitely does the problem

467
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 3: is that people are self administering drugs like this all day,

468
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 3: every day as we speak, and it's not curing anything.

469
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 1: So I mean, it just goes to show you that

470
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: people can be honest. I'm using an asterisk again, but

471
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: still deceptive, misleading, an unethical, because what they're saying here

472
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 1: is true, but it's what they're not saying that we

473
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: really need to know.

474
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: Well, they're putting that in the in the basket of

475
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 3: not my problem.

476
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: You know.

477
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: What I've done here is I've delivered something that gives

478
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 3: at least as good a result as giving someone a drug.

479
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 3: So give them this instead.

480
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: And how do they make dough? Do we have to

481
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 1: buy this? I guess so despite the thing.

482
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, So like those games, there's a free version,

483
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 3: and then there's a version that removes the you know,

484
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 3: I haven't actually played this one, so I don't know.

485
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: I've just looked through the videos and the screenshots of it.

486
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 3: So I'll bet there's a mechanism in there somewhere where

487
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 3: if you want the good stuff, you you have to

488
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 3: pay for it.

489
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: And I'm sure if you're a child, not an adult,

490
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: apparently it's for adults, I'm sure you.

491
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 3: Have a child version. They have a child version as well.

492
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: If I can see her, she's she's what are you doing?

493
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: I can see you send me the bloody link.

494
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 3: Oh, I'll put it in the chat.

495
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: Here we go.

496
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 3: Hang. Oh god, it's terrific podcasting listeners.

497
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: I'll make sure you've got the link in the show

498
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: notes too.

499
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

500
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,239
Speaker 3: You can be playing it while you're listening to this

501
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: and think bang on about.

502
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: Alkali A K I L I interactive all one word

503
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: dot com forward slash.

504
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 3: So the first one at the top of that page

505
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 3: if the endeavor O t C dot com, I think,

506
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 3: is where you get the download links.

507
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, I'm clicking on that now as well,

508
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: which is also terrible podcasting. There it is introducing in

509
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: dev OHTC, a game based treatment clinically proven to improve

510
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: attention and focus, specifically in adults with a d HD

511
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: except all cookies. That's you TIF You're a cookie? Are you?

512
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: Are you? Are you cookie? Except except the cookies?

513
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 3: And I click on the click on the visit The

514
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 3: big blue button says a visit endeavor OTC dot com.

515
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: Oh, there we are. I'm clicking on that as well.

516
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: This is who carest the cookies.

517
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 3: Again, They're going to be editing. There's going to be

518
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 3: some editing involved.

519
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: No, no, just leave this bit in fuck it. Leave

520
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: this tap into your potential. Oh god, they're marketing like

521
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: fucking champs, aren't they. It's all very attractive too.

522
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: I just don't understand how playing a video game is

523
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: going to improve focus in other areas of your bloody life.

524
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: I can sit and scroll on social media for nineteen

525
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: minutes in bed in the morning. Doesn't make me get

526
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 2: up and do what I want to be focusing on.

527
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 3: Well, you don't know what it'd be like if you

528
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 3: didn't do that.

529
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, you might just lie around in bed all day

530
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: like a bloody do gong, like a bloody land based

531
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: do God. All right, well we might pull.

532
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 3: Up in their quality episode.

533
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what people are like, Oh my god,

534
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: what is going on, doctor Gillespie? Not really doctor, but

535
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: you're a doctor to me, doctor doctor. Thanks mate, we

536
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: appreciate you, Tipp. Are you going to put the links

537
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: and stuff in for people?

538
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? I will, I will. I don't want to. I

539
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: don't want to be promoting it, but we'll have a

540
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 2: sticky beak people.

541
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, people want to have a look.

542
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: They can. Yeah, we're not. We're not opening the addiction

543
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: door at all or I made thank you.

544
00:30:58,320 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 3: Than anyone else.

545
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 1: It