WEBVTT - Infiltrating Australia's illegal brothels: Jas Rawlinson Pt. 2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective see aside of life. The average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>It's happening in your neighborhood right now. Young women trapped,

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<v Speaker 1>coerst forced into sexual servitude, hidden in planing sight, behind

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<v Speaker 1>the doors of massage parlors and legitimate looking businesses, and

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<v Speaker 1>most of us have no idea. In Part two of

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<v Speaker 1>my chat with Jazz Rowlinson, we dive into years of

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<v Speaker 1>work going undercover, gathering evidence, and fighting to make people

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<v Speaker 1>care about the victims caught up in this world. This

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<v Speaker 1>conversation is confronting, it's uncomfortable, but it's one we desperately

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<v Speaker 1>need to have. Have a listen, Jaz Rolinson, welcome back

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<v Speaker 1>to part two of I Catchkillers.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, we've talked about your early childhood and we

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<v Speaker 1>finished off giving men good men a rap, but then

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<v Speaker 1>we talked about some of the things that yeah, men

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<v Speaker 1>don't shine in different aspects of their life. What I

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<v Speaker 1>want to start off talking about now is your let's

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<v Speaker 1>call it an investigation, because I think it was an

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<v Speaker 1>investigation into the ced massage parlors, which quite often masquerading

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<v Speaker 1>as a massage parlor, but they're brothels. And we'll do

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<v Speaker 1>we'll do a disclaimer here so we don't get ourselves

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<v Speaker 1>in the trouble. There are genuine, legitimate, legitimate mass massage businesses,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think people that got their eyes open would

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<v Speaker 1>know the type that we're talking about. One of the

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<v Speaker 1>things again, and if I can just borrow your book

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<v Speaker 1>for a sec because I keep referring to it, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'll just the cover of your book is put you there.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the things you refer to in your book,

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<v Speaker 1>and that you think this was a turning point when

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<v Speaker 1>you went over to Thailand and you're with a group

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<v Speaker 1>and that you're looking at human trafficking, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, we went with an organization that supports victims

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<v Speaker 2>of human trafficking, and so they had taken us to

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<v Speaker 2>have a look at some of the I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>say have a look at but they were taking us

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<v Speaker 2>through the red light district and we were learning about

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<v Speaker 2>the places where many young people, boys and girls and

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<v Speaker 2>women as well had been rescued from and that was

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<v Speaker 2>really eye opening. That was some of the early days

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<v Speaker 2>of me learning more about human trafficking.

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<v Speaker 1>It left an indelible impression on your mind. But one

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that you wrote in the book, and

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<v Speaker 1>when you were walking through that group, a young girl

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<v Speaker 1>reached out and held held your hand, and it wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>in a confrontational way. It was in a way that

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<v Speaker 1>it was almost you looked into her eyes and you

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<v Speaker 1>could see her pain, and the quote I made a

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<v Speaker 1>serious commitment, don't look away, I told myself, lean into

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<v Speaker 1>the pain. Remember, nothing changes unless we choose to confront

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<v Speaker 1>that which we wished to change. Powerful words, but that

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<v Speaker 1>was sort of mentality. You came away from that experience

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<v Speaker 1>and just seeing the pain in this young girl's eyes

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<v Speaker 1>and there was nothing you could do to help up.

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<v Speaker 2>And I reached out to the organization that we were

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<v Speaker 2>with and I was like, look, I know, probably grasping

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<v Speaker 2>at straws here, but you know, this is the young

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<v Speaker 2>woman that reached out to me in the red light district.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was in this place. I won't say the

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<v Speaker 2>name of it, but it's a very famous place where

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of men go to get sexual gratification. And

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of bars and things there and the

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<v Speaker 2>young women, you know, some of whom are underage, will

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes be standing outside and they'll, you know, they'll wait

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<v Speaker 2>till a group of men are coming, and then they'll

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<v Speaker 2>put their masks on and they'll start giggling and they'll

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<v Speaker 2>try to get you to come in. And this young

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<v Speaker 2>woman just reached out and just touched my arm and

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<v Speaker 2>I turned and looked at her, and she just kind

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<v Speaker 2>of stared at me for a moment, and then she

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<v Speaker 2>gave me this really small little smile. And it was

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<v Speaker 2>so different to the other women who were like, come in,

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<v Speaker 2>come in, like trying to get you to come in

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<v Speaker 2>and buy drinks and things. And I was like, what

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<v Speaker 2>is this woman's story, what's going on here? But we

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<v Speaker 2>were walking through it the time to leave, and I

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<v Speaker 2>just didn't know what to do, and there was nothing

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<v Speaker 2>I could do except for the give her a little smile,

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<v Speaker 2>just like I see you. And I did reach out

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<v Speaker 2>to the organization later and I'm like, look, I know

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<v Speaker 2>it probably sounds silly, but this is where I saw

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<v Speaker 2>this young woman. Here's a photograph I got of the

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<v Speaker 2>outside of it that shows her. I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>there's anyone that can go. And I was like, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, can anyone do anything. I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>she's okay or not. But there was nothing I could

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<v Speaker 2>really do. But that quote that you read was really

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's what I've always tried to empower others

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<v Speaker 2>with is when we see something, don't look away. We

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<v Speaker 2>might not be able to help, when we can't help

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<v Speaker 2>every single person out there who's suffering in some way,

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<v Speaker 2>but what's important is that we don't look away and

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<v Speaker 2>that we do do what we can. So when I

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<v Speaker 2>came back from that trip, I was really committed to

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<v Speaker 2>doing whatever I could wherever to help survivors or victims

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<v Speaker 2>of sexual exploitation, and that included you know, running fundraisers

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<v Speaker 2>to raise money for organizations or for rescued victim survivors

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<v Speaker 2>that need support. So if I could help financially, I did,

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<v Speaker 2>and I have supported various organizations for years financially. But

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<v Speaker 2>it was also, you know, coming into the investigations I

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<v Speaker 2>did into illegal brothels, It was also making a decision

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<v Speaker 2>not to just like see those dodgy little flashing signs

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<v Speaker 2>and those newspapered windows and just ignore it, as I

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<v Speaker 2>did over time, to find ways to try and help

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<v Speaker 2>some of the women in there, or to go to

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<v Speaker 2>the police. And that wasn't really they didn't really help me,

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<v Speaker 2>but I knew that at least I'd reported these venues

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<v Speaker 2>and I was doing what I could.

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<v Speaker 1>When you first went over to Thailand, how did you

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<v Speaker 1>get involved in this group? Like what Initia that.

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<v Speaker 2>Said that all stemmed from the festival as well, where

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<v Speaker 2>I was working as a photojournalist, and so as long

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<v Speaker 2>as well as meeting the men at the men's shed,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the stories I picked up for that day

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<v Speaker 2>was to do a story on Destiny Rescue and the

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<v Speaker 2>work that they were doing in anti human trafficking, and

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<v Speaker 2>so then I started to learn more about them, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'd been donating to them for some time, and then

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty I think it's twenty thirteen, I went overseas

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<v Speaker 2>as part of a group with them, and that was

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<v Speaker 2>when I went over and helped. You know, there was

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<v Speaker 2>a young woman who was starting her own hair soil

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<v Speaker 2>on business and we helped to renovate that space for

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<v Speaker 2>her and help clean it and get it all ready

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<v Speaker 2>for her to open her own business. And we helped

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<v Speaker 2>with at some of the prevention homes with getting their

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<v Speaker 2>gardens done or just helping in lots of different ways

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<v Speaker 2>where we could, and at the same time getting to

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<v Speaker 2>learn a bit about the issues that were happening over

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<v Speaker 2>in Southeast Asia and the work that they were doing so.

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<v Speaker 1>The Southeast Asia. And I'm sure it would be confronting

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<v Speaker 1>seeing what you would have seen going on a tour

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<v Speaker 1>like that. There's some I don't aspire to this, but

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<v Speaker 1>I know there's narrative there that, well, that's over in

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<v Speaker 1>another country. We shouldn't buy into it. That's helping the girls.

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<v Speaker 1>The girls are there because they're paying for their families,

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<v Speaker 1>and their families are actually forcing them into that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of lifestyle, and that who are you a group of

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<v Speaker 1>people from buying into the wake ideology and all the

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<v Speaker 1>other criticism. What's your thoughts on that, because I think

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<v Speaker 1>you can shout those opinions down pretty quick if someone

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<v Speaker 1>came at you like that, going, well, you shouldn't interfear.

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<v Speaker 1>That's their culture. You let them do what they do.

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<v Speaker 2>Who I get it all the time. There's entire reddit

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<v Speaker 2>and Internet threads written specifically about me and how prawn

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<v Speaker 2>of the patriarchy or something like that. I've never actually

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<v Speaker 2>read the article, but it comes up in SEO and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh that. Sometimes it comes up and there

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<v Speaker 2>it is again and it was exactly what you said.

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<v Speaker 2>They're like write, you know, jazz ruins and spits, woke

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<v Speaker 2>a gender or something like that. But a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>men have come at me, especially men that do like

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<v Speaker 2>to travel to Southeast Asia to exploit women's sexually. I'll

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<v Speaker 2>call it what it is. That is what it is.

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<v Speaker 2>That's why they go there because they can buy a

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<v Speaker 2>girl for you know, back when I was investigating or

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<v Speaker 2>learning about it over there, they could buy some of

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<v Speaker 2>these hill tribe girls in certain villages for you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of dollars. They can get their beers for

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<v Speaker 2>a dollar or a couple of dollars, and they would

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<v Speaker 2>come at me and they would be like, well, they're

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<v Speaker 2>you know, they're paying for their families, and basically like

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<v Speaker 2>they're making a living, So why are you stopping them

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<v Speaker 2>from making a living. And I've said, I've said many times, like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe there are some women who are there who have

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<v Speaker 2>other options, and they choose to do this specifically because

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<v Speaker 2>they want to, and they have other options at any time,

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<v Speaker 2>but a large majority are there because of a lack

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<v Speaker 2>of any other option. And what I learned is that

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of women are coerced, sometimes even kidnapped into it,

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<v Speaker 2>or often love bombed, grow and coerced into the sex

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<v Speaker 2>trade from hill tribe villages. And in those villages, they

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<v Speaker 2>don't even have passports, so they don't have any way

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<v Speaker 2>to get a job in the city. And just like

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<v Speaker 2>in many relationships where we see course of control and grooming,

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<v Speaker 2>someone might come to the village and these are some

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<v Speaker 2>of the stories I heard when I was there, and

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<v Speaker 2>they'd say, Hey, we've got this restaurant job and we're

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<v Speaker 2>looking for young workers. We're looking for workers who would

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<v Speaker 2>like a restaurant job. And you think about it. If

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<v Speaker 2>you've grown up in an environment where you don't even

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<v Speaker 2>have a passport, you live in the hill tribe, you

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<v Speaker 2>live with very little. As a daughter, it is your

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<v Speaker 2>responsibility to provide for your family. Of course you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to go, hey, I'm going to take this opportunity and

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<v Speaker 2>run with it. So they tell them like, hey, we've

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<v Speaker 2>got these restaurant jobs and we can take you there.

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<v Speaker 2>And then there's many cases where those young women are

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<v Speaker 2>sexually assaulted, raped. Some escape, some don't. Others stay because

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<v Speaker 2>they have no other options, they don't have identification to

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<v Speaker 2>get any other job, and some, you know, believe that, well,

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<v Speaker 2>this is what I have to do to support my family.

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<v Speaker 2>So I always clap back at you know. There's an

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<v Speaker 2>article I wrote for news dot com dot you many

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<v Speaker 2>years ago where I spoke with an undercover worker who

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<v Speaker 2>I'm friends with, and he shared with me his experiences

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<v Speaker 2>of spending many years standing sitting alongside men in bars,

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<v Speaker 2>drinking with them, pretending to be one of them. When

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<v Speaker 2>I say pretending, I don't mean he engaged in any

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<v Speaker 2>of those things, just he would sit in the bars

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<v Speaker 2>and talk with them and pretend that he was there

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<v Speaker 2>for the same kinds of things, and the men would

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<v Speaker 2>say to him, Oh, well, you know, I'm helping her out,

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<v Speaker 2>like I'm helping her to provide for her family. And

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<v Speaker 2>he said to one of these men one day, if

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<v Speaker 2>that was your daughter, would you like me to come

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<v Speaker 2>along and take her and have sex with her and

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<v Speaker 2>give her some cash at the end, like would you

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<v Speaker 2>like your daughter to live that life? And it was like, well, no,

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<v Speaker 2>not really. But it's like, you're not helping them. You

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<v Speaker 2>think you're helping them, You're just helping. You're just pleasuring

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<v Speaker 2>yourself and gaslighting yourself and pretending and gaslating others and

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<v Speaker 2>pretending that you're being a savior to them. You can't.

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<v Speaker 1>They can't dress it up that well, they're helping, helping

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<v Speaker 1>these poor people.

0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.800
<v Speaker 2>Go and give them, go and give them money and groceries,

0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:27.839
<v Speaker 2>bring them groceries, find job opportunities for them if you

0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:31.040
<v Speaker 2>want to help them, job opportunities where they don't have

0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.360
<v Speaker 2>to be at risk of death or severe harm or

0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:39.160
<v Speaker 2>sexual disease or anything, you know, lifelong trauma. Yeah, they're

0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.280
<v Speaker 2>just just lying to themselves.

0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:45.240
<v Speaker 1>And that's that's the sadness of it. But that's overseas

0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:48.320
<v Speaker 1>and people yeah, well they I'm not sure how if

0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:50.160
<v Speaker 1>they do actually, but you hear the talk of a

0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:54.959
<v Speaker 1>sex tour or whatever. I'm sure it's advertised and those

0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:59.680
<v Speaker 1>type of things. But with people like yourself speaking out,

0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.760
<v Speaker 1>I think it's calling for what it is because it's

0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:06.920
<v Speaker 1>almost like it's too ugly to really delve into. Let's

0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.640
<v Speaker 1>look at the dynamics of it. But you've got young

0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:14.000
<v Speaker 1>innocent girls from a hill tribe in a really starting

0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.439
<v Speaker 1>off a disadvantage and the power in balance and then

0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.120
<v Speaker 1>course to coming to the city to make some money.

0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:23.040
<v Speaker 1>The families probably are this is good, We're going to survive,

0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.560
<v Speaker 1>The family will have food. What the horrible situation to be?

0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and the lifelong trauma that many of these women

0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:34.440
<v Speaker 2>live with is just horrific, you know, from like there's

0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:38.839
<v Speaker 2>women that I've sponsored, there is you know, there was

0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.640
<v Speaker 2>a young person that I had the honor of interviewing

0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:48.320
<v Speaker 2>who she didn't say that she had been in those

0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:50.679
<v Speaker 2>sorts of situations. And I don't know, maybe she wasn't,

0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.000
<v Speaker 2>but I also know that within that culture, it's not

0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:55.680
<v Speaker 2>something that they want to admit to if they didn't

0:13:56.160 --> 0:14:00.000
<v Speaker 2>have to be in that environment. But I've interviewed when

0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:04.720
<v Speaker 2>and that we're in exploitative situations in other ways. And

0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.280
<v Speaker 2>many of the women's stories or girls, you know, there

0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.160
<v Speaker 2>were girls that I met on that trip who were thirteen,

0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.960
<v Speaker 2>fourteen or fifteen and had already been out of the

0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:14.280
<v Speaker 2>industry for two or three years.

0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.880
<v Speaker 1>So how young were they when they're prone into the industry.

0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:22.000
<v Speaker 2>So it's like it's like it's happening, you're not helping.

0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.320
<v Speaker 2>But then, as you said, there's people who say, well,

0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.640
<v Speaker 2>that's happening overseas, so why should we really care about it,

0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.080
<v Speaker 2>And as long as they're getny money and then provide

0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:31.160
<v Speaker 2>for their family.

0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's not this similar to child pornography. The industry

0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.000
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't flourish unless people want them to want to view

0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:39.880
<v Speaker 1>view it.

0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.760
<v Speaker 2>So don't take up with the demand for it.

0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.680
<v Speaker 1>That wouldn't be there. And the girls over there and

0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:50.040
<v Speaker 1>we'll talk overseas before we bring it back here. They

0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:53.040
<v Speaker 1>deal with the shame too, like quite often they've forced

0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.360
<v Speaker 1>into an industry and then they've got to carry that

0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:58.720
<v Speaker 1>shame and their families reject them because of the work

0:14:58.760 --> 0:14:59.040
<v Speaker 1>they did.

0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah horrible, and then they're like, well, what's left for me?

0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.440
<v Speaker 2>Maybe I go back to that, because what else do

0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:08.720
<v Speaker 2>I have tough for now? Like my family brought shame

0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:10.800
<v Speaker 2>on my family, or I don't want them to know.

0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:15.200
<v Speaker 1>So you've been over there, you come back to Australia

0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:20.600
<v Speaker 1>and you're driving through your suburb and you look and.

0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:22.880
<v Speaker 2>The newspaper windows, what's that?

0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.600
<v Speaker 1>And your curiosity got the better of you. Described in

0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.320
<v Speaker 1>part one how you went in there and that the

0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.479
<v Speaker 1>person just slightly in the door. That's sort of an indicator.

0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:32.160
<v Speaker 1>That's not a.

0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh you're not male, what are you doing here?

0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.160
<v Speaker 1>Be confused? Yeah, tell us that story. How deep you

0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.160
<v Speaker 1>went into that? And I think you got on the

0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:45.600
<v Speaker 1>social media chat or a chat line with people, people

0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:46.200
<v Speaker 1>involved in the.

0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:48.840
<v Speaker 2>Forum of some kind. Okay, that's as much as I

0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:52.000
<v Speaker 2>will say. So. Yeah, in part one I was talking

0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:55.920
<v Speaker 2>about that Queenslander house that I went to and I

0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.200
<v Speaker 2>pretended I was new to the air and looking for

0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:00.360
<v Speaker 2>somewhere to get a massage, and yeah, they would have

0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:05.080
<v Speaker 2>been suspicious, going this is not our usual clientele. And

0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.200
<v Speaker 2>that's where I met this woman that I called Chelsea

0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.360
<v Speaker 2>in my book and began to understand more about what

0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:12.920
<v Speaker 2>she was experiencing in terms of sexual pressure from men.

0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.400
<v Speaker 2>Even though she wasn't providing sexual services in her boss,

0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.080
<v Speaker 2>there wasn't forcing her to, she was still exposed to

0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:25.480
<v Speaker 2>sexual harassment and very some very future scary situations that

0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:29.040
<v Speaker 2>we both found ourselves in together. There were other places

0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:31.560
<v Speaker 2>I went into where there was somewhere on the south side,

0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.760
<v Speaker 2>and again it was like an old Queenslander home. You

0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.160
<v Speaker 2>couldn't access it from the front. On the front it

0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.800
<v Speaker 2>had like a big say like hot Stone Massage sign

0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.160
<v Speaker 2>or something like that. So you know, I walked around

0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.720
<v Speaker 2>the back, which red flag. If you have to access

0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:48.720
<v Speaker 2>the venue from the back and you have to walk

0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:53.040
<v Speaker 2>through their clothesline clothes, it's probably not very legit. I

0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:55.080
<v Speaker 2>walk up and as I come in, I see this

0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.680
<v Speaker 2>and look, I just want to say, first up, the

0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.880
<v Speaker 2>people who go to these venues come from every culture,

0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.120
<v Speaker 2>every background. You know. I've seen white men, I've seen

0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.199
<v Speaker 2>men that aren't white. That particular day, I saw like

0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:12.439
<v Speaker 2>a Lebanese man and he was with a young Asian woman.

0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.520
<v Speaker 2>She looked very young, and she just had her arms

0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.400
<v Speaker 2>like wrapped around herself and she was hot, like bent over,

0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.080
<v Speaker 2>and he was just like walking out like all casual.

0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:26.359
<v Speaker 2>And I was like that young woman like dressed in

0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:30.359
<v Speaker 2>a little body corn mini dress. Doesn't look very comfortable

0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.639
<v Speaker 2>right now. And I'm standing there in the back door

0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:37.040
<v Speaker 2>of this like Queensland at home, and then this woman

0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.960
<v Speaker 2>comes up and I said, oh, hi, I saw you

0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.679
<v Speaker 2>do hot stone massage. And she was like huh, And

0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.119
<v Speaker 2>I was like, you do hotstone massage and she was

0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.600
<v Speaker 2>like hot what. I was like, yeah, okay, I know

0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.439
<v Speaker 2>what's going on here. So I did my speel and

0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:53.679
<v Speaker 2>asked for a business card. And sometimes I would get

0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.800
<v Speaker 2>a business card. Sometimes they didn't have one, and they

0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.399
<v Speaker 2>just write their number on a piece of paper. And

0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.400
<v Speaker 2>then when I get home, I would search that phone

0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.320
<v Speaker 2>number online and it would always come back to some

0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.600
<v Speaker 2>sort of adult forum or a Twitter account, like an

0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.359
<v Speaker 2>x rated Twitter account. And that was how I started

0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:15.880
<v Speaker 2>to get this pattern going. And I started to look

0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.840
<v Speaker 2>at more and more places, all different environments, like you know,

0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.920
<v Speaker 2>some more CD areas and then some very rich neighborhoods

0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:26.480
<v Speaker 2>where you've got million dollar houses interspersed with these little

0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:30.920
<v Speaker 2>little venues. One night, a friend and I sat outside

0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.280
<v Speaker 2>a venue that had been raided years earlier, and it

0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.520
<v Speaker 2>was still operating, and we sat there and we just

0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:39.919
<v Speaker 2>waited to see if any women came out because it

0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:42.320
<v Speaker 2>was an open late venue like all of them. We

0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.639
<v Speaker 2>sat there till about ten o'clock and no one came out.

0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.320
<v Speaker 2>Like all of the others, you could only access it

0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.160
<v Speaker 2>from the back door. I did go into that one

0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:54.000
<v Speaker 2>once and have a massage. So what I would do

0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.960
<v Speaker 2>is I would go in get a card, and then

0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:59.600
<v Speaker 2>later on I would spend my own money to go

0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.919
<v Speaker 2>and get just like a regular massage, which were often

0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.960
<v Speaker 2>not very good massage, like my back would just get

0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:13.480
<v Speaker 2>pounded for like fitspounding on my back for half an hoursage.

0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:16.760
<v Speaker 2>I'd walk out with my back all ft up, you know.

0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.480
<v Speaker 2>And meanwhile, you know, I was reading articles of men

0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:25.760
<v Speaker 2>who were doing their own undercover work and actually sexually

0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:28.080
<v Speaker 2>exploiting women in the process and getting paid to do

0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:30.879
<v Speaker 2>these investigations. And I'm like, here, I am trying to

0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:34.200
<v Speaker 2>expose what's going on, getting a bad massage and walking

0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.080
<v Speaker 2>out as a saw back. But the whole reason I

0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:39.199
<v Speaker 2>was doing it was to try to make connections with

0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.760
<v Speaker 2>some of these young women. And usually I only had

0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.800
<v Speaker 2>to go once to find out what was actually happening.

0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.080
<v Speaker 2>I would build, you know, a little bit of a

0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.919
<v Speaker 2>connection with the young women and they would talk to

0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:50.320
<v Speaker 2>me about it.

0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.560
<v Speaker 1>So while you're in there getting a massagssage, talking to

0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:55.240
<v Speaker 1>them and they're revealing a little bit.

0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And often they'd be there alone. Sometimes there would

0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.000
<v Speaker 2>be a ma massage there, which is like the feet

0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:04.640
<v Speaker 2>female manager. And they they've been cases here in Australia

0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:07.880
<v Speaker 2>where you've it's been reported in the news of these

0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:12.000
<v Speaker 2>female mama sons exploiting these women, of forcing them into

0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.919
<v Speaker 2>human trafficking. But there was one venue I went to

0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.359
<v Speaker 2>one night and there was just a young Asian woman

0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:22.760
<v Speaker 2>there all by herself, and she's massaging me, and I'm

0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:24.000
<v Speaker 2>just sort of trying to talk to her about a

0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:28.080
<v Speaker 2>day and she keeps apologizing because she can't really do

0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:33.040
<v Speaker 2>the massage very well, and I'm so sorry, is this okay? Yeah,

0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:37.000
<v Speaker 2>it's okay, It's really not, but it's okay. And then

0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:39.160
<v Speaker 2>i'd say, oh, you know, maybe just like a little

0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.119
<v Speaker 2>bit more pressure or something, she'd be okay. And then

0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.959
<v Speaker 2>I hadn't noticed. I hear this sniffling, and I'm like, oh,

0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:47.520
<v Speaker 2>maybe she's just got a little bit of a cold

0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:49.639
<v Speaker 2>or something. And then I hear more sniffling, and then

0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.639
<v Speaker 2>I can feel her fingers just trembling on my back,

0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.520
<v Speaker 2>and I say you okay, and then she just broke

0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.399
<v Speaker 2>down into tears. She was sobbing, and she was like,

0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm so sorry. I'm trying my best. The man that

0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:05.480
<v Speaker 2>was in before you, he's so angry, so angry, you know,

0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:08.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm not doing it properly. And I was like, well, look,

0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:10.440
<v Speaker 2>if nobody's taught you how to do it, how could

0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:12.639
<v Speaker 2>you you know? Like, how could you know how to

0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.320
<v Speaker 2>how to do a proper remedial massage? Like, sure, you're

0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:20.280
<v Speaker 2>doing your best, and just tried to comfort her. And

0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:22.600
<v Speaker 2>at the end of that night, because it was fairly late,

0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.359
<v Speaker 2>I said, how are you getting home? She's like, I

0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:27.639
<v Speaker 2>get the bus. And I was like, look, can I

0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:31.760
<v Speaker 2>drive you home? And eventually she was like yeah, yeah,

0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:34.040
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, because I'm happy too, like I'll

0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.960
<v Speaker 2>wait with you here for the bus or I'll drive

0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:39.639
<v Speaker 2>you either way, so I make sure you get on

0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.119
<v Speaker 2>a bus or you get home properly, safely. So she

0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.119
<v Speaker 2>ended up saying yes, you can drive me home, and

0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:47.760
<v Speaker 2>I start driving her and then she says, oh, but

0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:49.960
<v Speaker 2>you'll need to drop me off a little bit before

0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:52.960
<v Speaker 2>the house. You can't drive up to the house. And

0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:55.440
<v Speaker 2>I was like, oh, okay, why is that And she's like, oh,

0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:58.399
<v Speaker 2>the landlord will be very angry. And I was like,

0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:04.320
<v Speaker 2>what kind of place are these poor, you know, migrant

0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:08.000
<v Speaker 2>workers living and she was like oh. I was asking

0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:10.280
<v Speaker 2>her about it, like, oh, what's the you know, what's

0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.040
<v Speaker 2>your accommodation? Like do you like it? And she said

0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:16.119
<v Speaker 2>a few things raising red flags, which for example, she

0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:18.359
<v Speaker 2>told me it was she lived there alone, but she

0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:20.600
<v Speaker 2>was only paying say something like fifty dollars a week

0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:23.360
<v Speaker 2>or one hundred bucks a week. I'm like, even back then,

0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:26.640
<v Speaker 2>you know in that tiegrame, that's not that's not how

0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:30.000
<v Speaker 2>much a house to yourself costs. And then she's telling

0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:32.760
<v Speaker 2>me she doesn't want anyone to see her dropped off,

0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.520
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, what in the world am I

0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:37.720
<v Speaker 2>stumbling onto? You know? So I dropped her where she

0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:42.199
<v Speaker 2>asked me. But then what I was finding with like

0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:45.399
<v Speaker 2>to come back to the forum I was seeing, like,

0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:47.439
<v Speaker 2>so I would go to these online forums which.

0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.680
<v Speaker 1>Are just disgusted one of them. So I signed up.

0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:53.800
<v Speaker 2>I signed up to the forum, and I gave myself

0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.119
<v Speaker 2>a user name that was just like all of the

0:22:56.160 --> 0:23:00.119
<v Speaker 2>other people on there with gross innuendos in it, and

0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:01.720
<v Speaker 2>I was like, you know, I got to try and

0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:02.960
<v Speaker 2>look like I'm one of them.

0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:04.960
<v Speaker 1>And something like that.

0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:08.439
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, well, they all gave themselves all kinds of

0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:12.800
<v Speaker 2>stupid names, and it was, you know, it's a full

0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:15.560
<v Speaker 2>boys club in there. So they're bragging about where they're

0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:18.280
<v Speaker 2>getting their happy endings from, and the same time they're

0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:22.119
<v Speaker 2>bragging about it, they're completely belittling the women. They're giving

0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:25.920
<v Speaker 2>away personal details that would help people identify them, like, hey,

0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:28.639
<v Speaker 2>here's her name, which may not have been it's her

0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.480
<v Speaker 2>shop name, right, but they're describing her and then they're

0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.879
<v Speaker 2>describing what services they got from her. So then every

0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:37.000
<v Speaker 2>man that's on there right is going to go, oh, well,

0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:40.399
<v Speaker 2>I know that Say Rose is going to I know

0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:42.960
<v Speaker 2>she's done this for that guy, so I'm going to

0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:45.560
<v Speaker 2>try and get that out of her too. And there's

0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:48.520
<v Speaker 2>men giving their unsolicited advice about well, you know, if

0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:51.040
<v Speaker 2>you if you do it properly, you won't even have

0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:54.320
<v Speaker 2>to pay, you know, which is then getting into the

0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:57.640
<v Speaker 2>actual rape and sexual exploitation. There were men that were

0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:00.520
<v Speaker 2>admitting like, oh, yeah, she didn't seem very into it,

0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:04.680
<v Speaker 2>or even she had bruises on her, but they didn't care.

0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:08.359
<v Speaker 2>So I'm seeing this over and over and there was

0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:10.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, some of the men were reluctant to give

0:24:10.720 --> 0:24:13.639
<v Speaker 2>advice to new users, so I had to like be

0:24:13.720 --> 0:24:15.840
<v Speaker 2>on the on the forum for a while, which was

0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:20.199
<v Speaker 2>mentally very difficult just reading these disgusting things day in

0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:23.920
<v Speaker 2>and day out, and you know, just making small talk

0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:27.160
<v Speaker 2>really to try to create some sort of connection. Yeah,

0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:30.560
<v Speaker 2>not not you know, not pretending I'm doing the things

0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:33.000
<v Speaker 2>they are, but like, oh, hey, boys, I'm I'm just

0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:35.480
<v Speaker 2>in Brisbane for work at the moment, used to being

0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:38.520
<v Speaker 2>in the Sydney area. What's good in what's good in Brisbane?

0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:41.440
<v Speaker 2>You know? What should I check out on the north

0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:43.639
<v Speaker 2>side or the South side? You know those kinds of things.

0:24:44.400 --> 0:24:47.159
<v Speaker 2>And some of them just couldn't help themselves. They just

0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:49.520
<v Speaker 2>love to give advice. So they were giving me all

0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:50.720
<v Speaker 2>the advice and where to go?

0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:54.840
<v Speaker 1>Were we talking when you're online.

0:24:54.520 --> 0:24:58.199
<v Speaker 2>They'd have to be thousands like because it was separated

0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:02.200
<v Speaker 2>too via what parts of Australia, So I was only

0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:05.479
<v Speaker 2>interacting in the Brisbane part of the forum.

0:25:05.640 --> 0:25:07.800
<v Speaker 1>So they give me the doors if you go to

0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:10.359
<v Speaker 1>this one ask for this girl.

0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:13.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they just say I saw this girl, you know,

0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:16.000
<v Speaker 2>I'd rate her a three for looks, but tapped her

0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:20.040
<v Speaker 2>and left, you know, like just the most misogynistic, vile things.

0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:22.679
<v Speaker 2>It just had no respect. And like I said, if

0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:24.719
<v Speaker 2>they saw signs of bruising, they'd even mention that they

0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:28.200
<v Speaker 2>saw bruising or she wasn't into it, didn't put much

0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:31.000
<v Speaker 2>effort in, but they got what they were there for

0:25:31.080 --> 0:25:31.560
<v Speaker 2>and they left.

0:25:31.600 --> 0:25:34.520
<v Speaker 1>And it's like, did anyone call the on this my chat?

0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:36.119
<v Speaker 1>Or they're all down the same rabbit.

0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:38.920
<v Speaker 2>Very occasionally they'd be like, say, one person I'd see

0:25:38.920 --> 0:25:42.159
<v Speaker 2>who was like, hey, you should call that in, like

0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:45.960
<v Speaker 2>they could be being trafficked. But most people, whatever, they

0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:48.960
<v Speaker 2>know what they're like literally what they would say. And

0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:50.800
<v Speaker 2>I've got many of these quotes in my book, like

0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:53.840
<v Speaker 2>the exact conversations that we had. But it was like,

0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:56.960
<v Speaker 2>they know what they're there for. They're all money hungry whorees.

0:25:57.000 --> 0:25:59.720
<v Speaker 2>They're just over here to make money. They know what

0:25:59.760 --> 0:26:03.120
<v Speaker 2>this is. Apout it's like no, like some of them

0:26:03.440 --> 0:26:07.919
<v Speaker 2>may have gone into the parlors knowing that those services

0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:13.240
<v Speaker 2>might be requested, others might not. You know, many were forced.

0:26:13.280 --> 0:26:16.240
<v Speaker 2>There were venues I went to that had been raided

0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:19.119
<v Speaker 2>in the past, or one of them was raided after

0:26:19.240 --> 0:26:22.520
<v Speaker 2>I'd finished my investigations, and you know, I submitted all

0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:25.359
<v Speaker 2>of this evidence to the police. They didn't really seem

0:26:25.359 --> 0:26:25.680
<v Speaker 2>to care.

0:26:26.680 --> 0:26:29.280
<v Speaker 1>So you gathered those details.

0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:34.359
<v Speaker 2>I had screenshots of all these discussing conversations online with

0:26:34.400 --> 0:26:36.919
<v Speaker 2>the exact names of the venue, the girls, what was

0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:42.640
<v Speaker 2>being provided, the money that was being exchanged, bruising abuse allegations,

0:26:43.600 --> 0:26:49.200
<v Speaker 2>and you know, the detective that I spoke to said, ah, well,

0:26:49.240 --> 0:26:52.000
<v Speaker 2>there's two things. One was we don't help the victims.

0:26:52.359 --> 0:26:56.680
<v Speaker 2>We just deport them back home. And I was like, great, Great,

0:26:56.760 --> 0:27:00.040
<v Speaker 2>that's because that's really helping the situation the demand and

0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:02.800
<v Speaker 2>is not going to be like the demand is going

0:27:02.840 --> 0:27:06.840
<v Speaker 2>to keep growing, supplies going to keep growing. Deporting the

0:27:06.920 --> 0:27:09.040
<v Speaker 2>victims and giving them no support, is it going to

0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:10.520
<v Speaker 2>stop the industry.

0:27:10.240 --> 0:27:13.440
<v Speaker 1>The police And I'm not really for me with the industry.

0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:17.960
<v Speaker 1>The counsel enforced certain aspects of a police get involved.

0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:20.720
<v Speaker 1>If a police did get involved then found out that

0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:25.400
<v Speaker 1>this massage parlor was acting as an illegal brothel. Are

0:27:25.440 --> 0:27:29.440
<v Speaker 1>the girls working their charge? Is that what they're deported for?

0:27:30.080 --> 0:27:32.399
<v Speaker 2>At that time, there were girls that are being charged

0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:36.520
<v Speaker 2>as if they were perpetrators of illegal crimes. This was

0:27:36.720 --> 0:27:41.400
<v Speaker 2>prior to the decriminalization of sex work in Queensland, so

0:27:41.640 --> 0:27:44.879
<v Speaker 2>I can't speak to what might happen now now. But

0:27:45.400 --> 0:27:47.919
<v Speaker 2>I was told straight up from the detective, Oh, we

0:27:47.920 --> 0:27:49.840
<v Speaker 2>don't help them, we just support them. And then I

0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:55.240
<v Speaker 2>was seeing instances where girls were being charged for soliciting

0:27:55.320 --> 0:27:57.640
<v Speaker 2>sex when they were in a venue where they were

0:27:58.080 --> 0:28:01.240
<v Speaker 2>being trafficked or sexually exploited. And then the other thing

0:28:01.280 --> 0:28:03.800
<v Speaker 2>that was said to me when I handed over, there's

0:28:03.960 --> 0:28:07.800
<v Speaker 2>big wad of evidence, which was all the screenshots and

0:28:08.760 --> 0:28:11.200
<v Speaker 2>breakdowns of every venue I'd been to and what I'd

0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:14.280
<v Speaker 2>seen there, and the links even had like the URL

0:28:14.359 --> 0:28:17.280
<v Speaker 2>links printed out, and I was told, oh, I'm really

0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:20.760
<v Speaker 2>glad you put the links in because we're not we're

0:28:20.800 --> 0:28:24.600
<v Speaker 2>not able to access this content, which to me doesn't

0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:26.919
<v Speaker 2>make sense. I'm like, I'm sure you can access it,

0:28:26.960 --> 0:28:29.080
<v Speaker 2>but they're like, I'm glad you put the rls in there,

0:28:29.800 --> 0:28:31.720
<v Speaker 2>Like why am I doing this? Like why am I

0:28:31.760 --> 0:28:34.880
<v Speaker 2>paying my own money doing this on my nights where

0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:38.440
<v Speaker 2>I could be resting, spending time with my husband and

0:28:38.480 --> 0:28:41.640
<v Speaker 2>nobody's paying me to do any of this investigation.

0:28:41.440 --> 0:28:44.800
<v Speaker 1>And you would have thought, were you naive or did

0:28:44.840 --> 0:28:46.920
<v Speaker 1>you have a sense that you're going to be pushing

0:28:46.960 --> 0:28:48.000
<v Speaker 1>against a system.

0:28:48.040 --> 0:28:49.320
<v Speaker 2>I was pretty naive at the time.

0:28:49.360 --> 0:28:53.200
<v Speaker 1>I thought this proof of evidence I've gotten, Oh thank you,

0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:55.840
<v Speaker 1>You've done all their work, and it will keep you informed.

0:28:55.840 --> 0:28:58.800
<v Speaker 1>This is fantastic. But it didn't play it that way.

0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:00.960
<v Speaker 2>No, And like I said, I did see that one

0:29:00.960 --> 0:29:06.160
<v Speaker 2>of those venues was raided after I'd finished my investigations,

0:29:06.400 --> 0:29:09.040
<v Speaker 2>and I have no idea of what I submitted had

0:29:09.080 --> 0:29:11.360
<v Speaker 2>anything to do with that. I was just glad when

0:29:11.360 --> 0:29:14.280
<v Speaker 2>I saw that it had been shut down. I don't

0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:16.680
<v Speaker 2>know if it's reopen again now, because that's the problem,

0:29:16.760 --> 0:29:18.720
<v Speaker 2>is that they just keep popping back up, either in

0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:21.880
<v Speaker 2>the same venue or somewhere else. But in that particular one,

0:29:21.920 --> 0:29:25.040
<v Speaker 2>they did find that the girls were being financially and

0:29:25.080 --> 0:29:28.800
<v Speaker 2>sexually exploited by the female mamasan there, and the words

0:29:28.800 --> 0:29:33.480
<v Speaker 2>were she was an extremely cruel boss who exploited these women.

0:29:33.920 --> 0:29:37.000
<v Speaker 2>But to the outside, and again coming back to what

0:29:37.040 --> 0:29:41.920
<v Speaker 2>you said earlier about the attitudes of some men, it's like, oh,

0:29:41.960 --> 0:29:44.680
<v Speaker 2>they know what they're there for. They're getting their bags,

0:29:44.720 --> 0:29:47.640
<v Speaker 2>so whatever they're just as bad as us, Like they're

0:29:47.680 --> 0:29:51.480
<v Speaker 2>exploiting us for our money. And it's like, here's just

0:29:51.680 --> 0:29:56.000
<v Speaker 2>one venue where we have evidence that the women in there,

0:29:56.040 --> 0:29:59.680
<v Speaker 2>who I saw in tiny little mini dresses and mini

0:29:59.720 --> 0:30:04.640
<v Speaker 2>skil and high heels were being enslaved. They didn't know

0:30:04.720 --> 0:30:06.600
<v Speaker 2>what they were going to be asked to do, and

0:30:06.640 --> 0:30:10.320
<v Speaker 2>they were being forced into trafficking for the men in

0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:10.800
<v Speaker 2>that area.

0:30:11.120 --> 0:30:15.520
<v Speaker 1>And I naive here, but sometimes that have controls of

0:30:15.600 --> 0:30:18.440
<v Speaker 1>their passports and all sorts of stuff like that. Like

0:30:18.520 --> 0:30:21.239
<v Speaker 1>it's really we're saying, well, everyone's for a choice, but

0:30:21.600 --> 0:30:23.040
<v Speaker 1>it's not necessarily the.

0:30:22.960 --> 0:30:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Wa same things that we see, the same patterns we

0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:28.920
<v Speaker 2>see in every day like I sort of say, everyday

0:30:29.000 --> 0:30:32.240
<v Speaker 2>relationships where COEs of control is a factor, you know,

0:30:32.600 --> 0:30:34.600
<v Speaker 2>financial control is wielded.

0:30:35.440 --> 0:30:38.600
<v Speaker 1>The thread that I picked up from your upbringing to

0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:39.920
<v Speaker 1>where you are now.

0:30:39.880 --> 0:30:45.840
<v Speaker 2>It's passports can be passports are often taken, and so yeah,

0:30:45.880 --> 0:30:47.160
<v Speaker 2>how are they going to get home? Right?

0:30:47.520 --> 0:30:51.240
<v Speaker 1>And would it be a situation also like they've offered, Okay,

0:30:51.280 --> 0:30:53.840
<v Speaker 1>we'll pay for your flight over here, but you are

0:30:54.280 --> 0:30:58.200
<v Speaker 1>the flight costs three thousand dollars and we're putting up you.

0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:01.440
<v Speaker 1>We're paying for your accommodation. You ten thousand dollars and

0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:02.800
<v Speaker 1>you've got to keep working.

0:31:02.840 --> 0:31:06.200
<v Speaker 2>So that's called debt bondage, and that's really common in

0:31:06.280 --> 0:31:10.600
<v Speaker 2>human trafficking, and it's exactly what you said. You can leave,

0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:13.760
<v Speaker 2>but first you owe us all of this for bringing

0:31:13.840 --> 0:31:18.000
<v Speaker 2>you over here, costs of like you're living. Often these

0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:20.600
<v Speaker 2>women might be living on the same premises too, which

0:31:20.600 --> 0:31:23.360
<v Speaker 2>is why sometimes in the situation with my friend and

0:31:23.760 --> 0:31:26.640
<v Speaker 2>we didn't see anyone leave, So that was part of

0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:30.920
<v Speaker 2>my evidence was maybe they are living on sites and

0:31:30.960 --> 0:31:33.080
<v Speaker 2>they're just living and working from their twenty for seven.

0:31:33.680 --> 0:31:34.560
<v Speaker 2>That's a big part of it.

0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:37.640
<v Speaker 1>Tell us some of the personal stories of the girls

0:31:37.640 --> 0:31:40.120
<v Speaker 1>that you got to meeting there and what their circumstances

0:31:40.120 --> 0:31:45.280
<v Speaker 1>were and did they manage to get away from that industry.

0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:48.800
<v Speaker 2>So one of the main women who I talk about

0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:51.240
<v Speaker 2>in my book, I call her Chelsea, and she's the

0:31:51.280 --> 0:31:55.280
<v Speaker 2>one I met in the very first venue and so

0:31:55.320 --> 0:31:58.240
<v Speaker 2>there was a night where we gotten to know each

0:31:58.280 --> 0:32:00.600
<v Speaker 2>other a bit and after that very first meeting, I'd

0:32:00.640 --> 0:32:03.040
<v Speaker 2>said to like that very first session, I'd said to her, Hey,

0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:05.840
<v Speaker 2>if you ever have any questions while you're here in

0:32:05.880 --> 0:32:10.200
<v Speaker 2>Australia about laws about situations like that when you explained

0:32:10.200 --> 0:32:14.000
<v Speaker 2>where the man just got naked and was sexually harassing you,

0:32:14.000 --> 0:32:16.720
<v Speaker 2>you can message me, like if you have any questions,

0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:19.680
<v Speaker 2>because here's the thing too, like, regardless of whether these

0:32:19.680 --> 0:32:24.080
<v Speaker 2>women speak fairly fluent English or not, they're still not like,

0:32:24.440 --> 0:32:26.720
<v Speaker 2>no one's familiar with all of the laws of the

0:32:26.760 --> 0:32:30.520
<v Speaker 2>country if they've never lived there. And so I'd said, like,

0:32:30.560 --> 0:32:32.320
<v Speaker 2>you can reach out to me about anything if you

0:32:32.360 --> 0:32:35.720
<v Speaker 2>have any questions. And we stayed in touch, and while

0:32:35.720 --> 0:32:38.520
<v Speaker 2>she was working in the parlors, yeah, we would. We

0:32:38.520 --> 0:32:40.280
<v Speaker 2>would stay in touch and she'd chat with me. And

0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:42.480
<v Speaker 2>one night I said, hey, do you want to catch

0:32:42.560 --> 0:32:44.640
<v Speaker 2>up and she's like, yeah, I'm working over this side

0:32:44.680 --> 0:32:49.280
<v Speaker 2>of Brisbane today in this particular venue. And I was like, oh, okay, cool, Well,

0:32:49.320 --> 0:32:51.440
<v Speaker 2>I know you're I know you're a good massage, so

0:32:51.760 --> 0:32:54.000
<v Speaker 2>how about I come in and I'll book a massage

0:32:54.040 --> 0:32:57.840
<v Speaker 2>and then we can go hang out afterwards. And she

0:32:57.960 --> 0:33:01.320
<v Speaker 2>was like, yeah, that sounds good. And while I was

0:33:01.320 --> 0:33:04.560
<v Speaker 2>there in this venue where it was like in a

0:33:04.560 --> 0:33:07.120
<v Speaker 2>strip of shops where there's nothing else open at that

0:33:07.200 --> 0:33:10.640
<v Speaker 2>time of night, on a you know, kind of a

0:33:10.680 --> 0:33:13.360
<v Speaker 2>main road, not a highway or anything. But there's no

0:33:13.440 --> 0:33:15.680
<v Speaker 2>reason for anyone to be around there because everything in

0:33:15.720 --> 0:33:18.280
<v Speaker 2>the area is shut. And it was just Chelsea and

0:33:18.320 --> 0:33:21.600
<v Speaker 2>one other young woman in the shop, and when I

0:33:21.720 --> 0:33:25.120
<v Speaker 2>went in, there was a man who was in with

0:33:25.360 --> 0:33:30.360
<v Speaker 2>the one other lady and he was having his massage whatever,

0:33:30.800 --> 0:33:34.080
<v Speaker 2>and Chelsea and I were just chatting away, and then

0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:36.760
<v Speaker 2>we hear this noise from like the next particle, like

0:33:36.800 --> 0:33:40.160
<v Speaker 2>behind the curtain, and this man goes. He was obviously drunk,

0:33:40.200 --> 0:33:43.840
<v Speaker 2>and he was like, Oh, who's that girl in the

0:33:43.920 --> 0:33:47.080
<v Speaker 2>other room. He's like, who is she? I want to

0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:49.800
<v Speaker 2>talk to her? And it sounds ridiculous now, and I've

0:33:49.800 --> 0:33:52.760
<v Speaker 2>had people say, oh, you make up these stories, like

0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:55.640
<v Speaker 2>you use AI to make you used AI to make

0:33:55.680 --> 0:33:57.200
<v Speaker 2>up these stories, And I'm like, first of all, my

0:33:57.240 --> 0:34:00.000
<v Speaker 2>book was written before anyone any of us were use

0:34:00.240 --> 0:34:04.400
<v Speaker 2>a Secondly, if you have if you think it sounds

0:34:04.440 --> 0:34:07.840
<v Speaker 2>cringe or unbelievable, well that's how cringe these men are,

0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:11.760
<v Speaker 2>you know. So he's yelling out slurring, Oh that girl

0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:15.800
<v Speaker 2>sounds so sexy. I want to talk to her, and

0:34:16.200 --> 0:34:19.319
<v Speaker 2>my friend just like zips up, like she just shuts up,

0:34:19.800 --> 0:34:22.239
<v Speaker 2>and we sit there like what is this happening, and

0:34:22.280 --> 0:34:24.840
<v Speaker 2>then she's like, is he talking about me? And I

0:34:24.920 --> 0:34:27.279
<v Speaker 2>was like I think he is, like he must be.

0:34:27.800 --> 0:34:30.960
<v Speaker 2>So we get really quiet and we're just she's like,

0:34:31.080 --> 0:34:32.839
<v Speaker 2>just got her hand resting on my back, and we're

0:34:32.840 --> 0:34:36.600
<v Speaker 2>both just laying their frozen, like what's going on because

0:34:36.640 --> 0:34:40.680
<v Speaker 2>we're three petite women in like a store with one

0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:43.960
<v Speaker 2>drunk man and he just keeps going and anytime he

0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:46.640
<v Speaker 2>hears her voice he starts again like, oh, she sounds

0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:47.400
<v Speaker 2>so sexy.

0:34:47.920 --> 0:34:48.520
<v Speaker 1>Who is she?

0:34:48.680 --> 0:34:51.600
<v Speaker 2>I want that woman, I want that girl. And we're

0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:53.719
<v Speaker 2>starting to get really scared because we're like what could

0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:55.640
<v Speaker 2>this guy be capable of? Like is he just some

0:34:55.800 --> 0:35:00.719
<v Speaker 2>bumbling idiot or could he get violent? And thankfully the

0:35:00.760 --> 0:35:04.080
<v Speaker 2>woman in the next room managed to placate him, and

0:35:04.160 --> 0:35:07.239
<v Speaker 2>she would you know, she just she just giggled and

0:35:07.520 --> 0:35:12.080
<v Speaker 2>like you know, used her charm to calm him down, thankfully.

0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:14.480
<v Speaker 2>But then Chelsea and I had to just hide in

0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:16.600
<v Speaker 2>that room, which wasn't a room with a proper door.

0:35:16.600 --> 0:35:19.080
<v Speaker 2>I just had a curtain around it. We just had

0:35:19.120 --> 0:35:23.279
<v Speaker 2>to hide there literally until he left because I said

0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:25.080
<v Speaker 2>to her like, do you, like, how do you feel

0:35:25.080 --> 0:35:27.520
<v Speaker 2>about going out right now? And She's like, I don't

0:35:27.520 --> 0:35:29.040
<v Speaker 2>want to go out there, like I don't want to

0:35:29.080 --> 0:35:32.200
<v Speaker 2>see him. So we waited until we knew he was gone,

0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:35.560
<v Speaker 2>and then we came out and then I was like, right, okay,

0:35:35.960 --> 0:35:38.439
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to bring the car up and I'll take

0:35:38.480 --> 0:35:41.640
<v Speaker 2>you home. We'll go and do dinner or something. And

0:35:41.680 --> 0:35:45.080
<v Speaker 2>again I was just like, these women are in such

0:35:45.239 --> 0:35:50.080
<v Speaker 2>vulnerable situations. There's nobody, there's no security there. There's not

0:35:50.160 --> 0:35:53.640
<v Speaker 2>even like a front receptionist or something like you would

0:35:53.640 --> 0:35:58.319
<v Speaker 2>see in a legitimate business. And it's seven o'clock, eight

0:35:58.320 --> 0:36:01.960
<v Speaker 2>o'clock at night, there's no one around. What would they

0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:05.719
<v Speaker 2>have done if that man got violent? Where would they

0:36:05.719 --> 0:36:08.200
<v Speaker 2>have gone? Who would they have caught? You know, it's

0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:12.080
<v Speaker 2>such a vulnerable situation. And I was scared in that situation.

0:36:12.200 --> 0:36:14.320
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know what to do. I was like, could

0:36:14.320 --> 0:36:17.000
<v Speaker 2>I could I help in any way if I needed to?

0:36:17.600 --> 0:36:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't feel confident to do that. So again, it's

0:36:21.080 --> 0:36:23.759
<v Speaker 2>just people just have no idea what's happening inside of

0:36:23.760 --> 0:36:27.120
<v Speaker 2>these venues. And I just completely reject the notion that,

0:36:27.480 --> 0:36:29.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, they're all just there to make their bag

0:36:29.400 --> 0:36:31.959
<v Speaker 2>and they know what they're in for, and it's all,

0:36:32.440 --> 0:36:35.319
<v Speaker 2>there's no power dynamics at play, and they're they're all

0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:38.320
<v Speaker 2>consenting adults and people have just got no idea.

0:36:39.160 --> 0:36:42.239
<v Speaker 1>We seek a view of it. It's a lot more

0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:46.759
<v Speaker 1>complicated than that. How did Chelsea play out? How did it?

0:36:47.440 --> 0:36:49.480
<v Speaker 2>So we stayed in touch for quite a while after that,

0:36:49.600 --> 0:36:52.680
<v Speaker 2>and after that she got out of the parlors because

0:36:52.680 --> 0:36:54.920
<v Speaker 2>she was here to travel Australia and as part of that,

0:36:54.960 --> 0:36:57.279
<v Speaker 2>you've got to do your I think it's like eighty

0:36:57.280 --> 0:37:01.720
<v Speaker 2>eight days of farm work to get say an extra

0:37:01.800 --> 0:37:05.200
<v Speaker 2>year out the rural area of travel. Now there's a

0:37:05.239 --> 0:37:08.880
<v Speaker 2>whole lot that's been exposed in terms of exploitation on farms,

0:37:09.800 --> 0:37:14.000
<v Speaker 2>labor exploitation, financial and sexual exploitation. She ended up on

0:37:14.040 --> 0:37:17.000
<v Speaker 2>this farm out west of Brisbane, and so we kept

0:37:17.040 --> 0:37:19.520
<v Speaker 2>in touch and I put her in contact with a

0:37:19.560 --> 0:37:23.919
<v Speaker 2>woman out there who was working with international travelers and

0:37:24.000 --> 0:37:27.279
<v Speaker 2>helping them with connections and making sure they weren't being

0:37:27.320 --> 0:37:30.160
<v Speaker 2>exploited on farms. So I set that up. But then

0:37:30.200 --> 0:37:33.440
<v Speaker 2>one day Chelsea messages me and she's like, so today

0:37:33.680 --> 0:37:37.680
<v Speaker 2>I worked from was it like five like let's just

0:37:37.719 --> 0:37:41.719
<v Speaker 2>say like five am to five pm picking tomatoes And

0:37:41.760 --> 0:37:45.760
<v Speaker 2>she's like and I made thirty six dollars before tax,

0:37:46.520 --> 0:37:49.879
<v Speaker 2>and I was like what. And I was like how

0:37:49.880 --> 0:37:53.040
<v Speaker 2>many baskets? Like what's going on? And she's like yeah,

0:37:53.080 --> 0:37:55.239
<v Speaker 2>so I filled. She say like it took me an

0:37:55.280 --> 0:37:58.000
<v Speaker 2>hour to fill one basket. And I'm like what, because

0:37:58.040 --> 0:38:00.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking of those like little trendy rat baskets, you know,

0:38:01.600 --> 0:38:03.920
<v Speaker 2>you put your little sprieks of rosemary in and your

0:38:04.360 --> 0:38:06.279
<v Speaker 2>stuff in the markets. And then she sent me a

0:38:06.280 --> 0:38:09.319
<v Speaker 2>photo and it was like this plastic tub like up

0:38:09.360 --> 0:38:12.200
<v Speaker 2>to here, like up to the table, filled with tiny

0:38:12.280 --> 0:38:16.160
<v Speaker 2>cherry tomatoes and she was like working in like it

0:38:16.280 --> 0:38:19.680
<v Speaker 2>was like high thirty degrees or forty degrees. She's out

0:38:19.719 --> 0:38:22.920
<v Speaker 2>there all day, twelve hours, makes thirty six bucks. And

0:38:23.000 --> 0:38:27.799
<v Speaker 2>I was like that that is exploitation. And I'm like,

0:38:27.920 --> 0:38:30.440
<v Speaker 2>is this the same venue that like asked you to

0:38:30.520 --> 0:38:32.560
<v Speaker 2>do X y Z the other day? And she's like yeah,

0:38:32.600 --> 0:38:35.080
<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, yeah, I would if I were you,

0:38:35.120 --> 0:38:37.920
<v Speaker 2>I would have a chat to like am the lady

0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:43.000
<v Speaker 2>that I connected you with? Because that's very exploitative. And

0:38:43.080 --> 0:38:46.000
<v Speaker 2>I just thought again, like if she was here, like

0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:48.560
<v Speaker 2>if we hadn't had that chance meeting and been able

0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:52.200
<v Speaker 2>to forger connection and friendship. Who would she have talked

0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:53.640
<v Speaker 2>to about this stuff.

0:38:53.320 --> 0:38:56.040
<v Speaker 1>And she wouldn't and she wouldn't know, and she's vulnerable.

0:38:56.080 --> 0:38:58.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, she wasn't allowed to have a break too. She

0:38:58.080 --> 0:39:01.279
<v Speaker 2>wasn't allowed to go to the toilet. Her friends there

0:39:02.440 --> 0:39:05.520
<v Speaker 2>asked for a break because she was having a migraine

0:39:05.520 --> 0:39:08.160
<v Speaker 2>and thought she was going to faint under the sun.

0:39:08.520 --> 0:39:10.839
<v Speaker 2>Picking all day, not allowed to stop and drink water

0:39:10.960 --> 0:39:13.040
<v Speaker 2>or go the toilet, and yeah, she got in trouble

0:39:13.040 --> 0:39:17.040
<v Speaker 2>for that. So it's happening in so many different industries,

0:39:17.200 --> 0:39:19.640
<v Speaker 2>like we've heard of it this the eighty eight day visa.

0:39:19.680 --> 0:39:22.480
<v Speaker 2>We've heard stories in the news over the past few

0:39:22.520 --> 0:39:26.680
<v Speaker 2>years of people who had their passports taken from them

0:39:27.400 --> 0:39:31.160
<v Speaker 2>and told, hey, we can sign off on your passport,

0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:34.040
<v Speaker 2>but first you have to you have to do these

0:39:34.080 --> 0:39:39.279
<v Speaker 2>sexual acts for me. So that was in an investigation

0:39:39.400 --> 0:39:42.640
<v Speaker 2>years ago that I mentioned in my book into what

0:39:42.880 --> 0:39:47.080
<v Speaker 2>was happening with these eighty eight day visas. People that

0:39:47.160 --> 0:39:51.239
<v Speaker 2>have experienced terrible things in different meat farm like meat factories.

0:39:52.040 --> 0:39:54.760
<v Speaker 2>It just happens in so many different areas, and people

0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:59.080
<v Speaker 2>either aren't aware. The people that are in these situations,

0:39:59.160 --> 0:40:01.520
<v Speaker 2>like Chelsea, they you may not have anyone to speak

0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:05.040
<v Speaker 2>to about it, so they don't know what rights they've

0:40:05.040 --> 0:40:07.359
<v Speaker 2>got or what rights they can access.

0:40:08.080 --> 0:40:11.279
<v Speaker 1>Are you disappointed with the spotlight you put on? Yeah,

0:40:11.400 --> 0:40:16.840
<v Speaker 1>we talk about the massage parlors exploitation, now that the

0:40:16.920 --> 0:40:21.480
<v Speaker 1>rural areas. Are you disappointed that there's like it's almost

0:40:21.520 --> 0:40:24.400
<v Speaker 1>like this should be an expos a. Look what I've exposed,

0:40:24.440 --> 0:40:27.680
<v Speaker 1>and they're not. All the law enforcement every bit of

0:40:27.719 --> 0:40:32.000
<v Speaker 1>power comes down. But sadly that's not what actually happens,

0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:35.560
<v Speaker 1>is it. There's no overly outrage media.

0:40:35.600 --> 0:40:40.320
<v Speaker 2>There's seemed like a couple of exposees every couple of years,

0:40:40.320 --> 0:40:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Like there was a big one I think it was

0:40:41.480 --> 0:40:44.399
<v Speaker 2>sixty Minutes a couple of years ago, and they did

0:40:44.400 --> 0:40:47.280
<v Speaker 2>a great exposee on what was happening with sex trafficking

0:40:47.320 --> 0:40:51.000
<v Speaker 2>within Australia and within these parlors and motels and things

0:40:51.040 --> 0:40:54.120
<v Speaker 2>like that. But it's not really like no one ever

0:40:54.160 --> 0:40:56.840
<v Speaker 2>really talks about it very regularly. And it took me

0:40:57.239 --> 0:41:00.160
<v Speaker 2>So I was doing those investigations for about eighteen months

0:41:00.200 --> 0:41:06.360
<v Speaker 2>between say twenty thirteen and twenty fifteen, and there was

0:41:06.480 --> 0:41:10.440
<v Speaker 2>one investigative journalist who said he was interested and it

0:41:10.480 --> 0:41:12.840
<v Speaker 2>took months and months and finally set up a meeting

0:41:12.840 --> 0:41:14.799
<v Speaker 2>and then he said, oh, so would you go on

0:41:14.840 --> 0:41:17.960
<v Speaker 2>camera and talk about these things? And he's like, we'll

0:41:18.000 --> 0:41:20.239
<v Speaker 2>give anonymity to.

0:41:22.080 --> 0:41:22.960
<v Speaker 1>I always avoid that.

0:41:23.160 --> 0:41:26.400
<v Speaker 2>I always fuck it up. He's like, we'll give that

0:41:26.560 --> 0:41:29.280
<v Speaker 2>to any of the girls that you can bring forward.

0:41:29.960 --> 0:41:32.040
<v Speaker 2>And he's like, but would you speak on camera? And

0:41:32.080 --> 0:41:34.040
<v Speaker 2>I said, to be honest, like, I'm a little bit

0:41:34.080 --> 0:41:38.160
<v Speaker 2>wary of doing that because this is organized crime. Yes,

0:41:38.520 --> 0:41:42.799
<v Speaker 2>and my own mother is very worried about the work

0:41:42.840 --> 0:41:44.280
<v Speaker 2>I've been doing, and I've had a lot of people

0:41:44.320 --> 0:41:48.560
<v Speaker 2>telling me to be very careful. I don't know whether

0:41:48.600 --> 0:41:52.279
<v Speaker 2>I've been filmed on camera going into these venues. The

0:41:52.360 --> 0:41:57.759
<v Speaker 2>things I've seen are pretty scary enough that I would

0:41:57.800 --> 0:42:01.000
<v Speaker 2>be a bit scared, So like, can't you just blur

0:42:01.120 --> 0:42:03.120
<v Speaker 2>me out or darken me out like the girls? And

0:42:03.120 --> 0:42:05.200
<v Speaker 2>I was like, ah, nah, I could need you to

0:42:05.200 --> 0:42:07.279
<v Speaker 2>be on camera. And I was like, I don't feel

0:42:07.360 --> 0:42:09.319
<v Speaker 2>very safe about that, and I don't feel like that's

0:42:09.440 --> 0:42:12.920
<v Speaker 2>very fair. I've watched enough documentaries and things to know

0:42:13.000 --> 0:42:17.359
<v Speaker 2>that you could easily give me, you know, privacy within this.

0:42:17.920 --> 0:42:20.320
<v Speaker 2>And so it didn't go anywhere, and I was really

0:42:20.480 --> 0:42:23.400
<v Speaker 2>really upset about that. I reached out to journalists, I

0:42:23.480 --> 0:42:27.480
<v Speaker 2>reached out to council, nobody cared, nobody did anything. And

0:42:27.520 --> 0:42:31.000
<v Speaker 2>then it wasn't until after my book came out that

0:42:31.120 --> 0:42:34.360
<v Speaker 2>I had a couple of editors who said yes to

0:42:35.160 --> 0:42:37.759
<v Speaker 2>talking about the things I'd exposed. You know, I wrote

0:42:37.800 --> 0:42:40.160
<v Speaker 2>a piece for Mama Mia. I've written a couple of

0:42:40.200 --> 0:42:43.160
<v Speaker 2>pieces for news dot com dot au on human trafficking

0:42:43.200 --> 0:42:47.120
<v Speaker 2>over the years, but generally, yeah, nobody was interested, and

0:42:47.200 --> 0:42:50.240
<v Speaker 2>I just I was like, to this day, I still

0:42:50.320 --> 0:42:54.840
<v Speaker 2>don't really know of anybody like I'm sure there might be,

0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:58.720
<v Speaker 2>but I don't personally know of anybody who's been investigating

0:42:59.360 --> 0:43:01.920
<v Speaker 2>a legal broth and parlors in Australia other than the

0:43:02.000 --> 0:43:06.759
<v Speaker 2>journalists who, for example, did that spotlight or that at

0:43:06.760 --> 0:43:08.840
<v Speaker 2>that feature a couple of years ago and sixty minutes.

0:43:09.040 --> 0:43:11.960
<v Speaker 2>But I knew of nobody at the time. There's nobody

0:43:11.960 --> 0:43:15.520
<v Speaker 2>that could really give me much advice, and nobody seemed

0:43:15.520 --> 0:43:17.799
<v Speaker 2>to really care about it. So it was very much

0:43:17.880 --> 0:43:21.160
<v Speaker 2>what you said, that it's happening everywhere, It's happening in

0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:25.080
<v Speaker 2>plain sight, it's not even hidden, and nobody seems to

0:43:25.120 --> 0:43:27.520
<v Speaker 2>care and there was a journalist so I spoke to

0:43:27.680 --> 0:43:30.040
<v Speaker 2>earlier this year and like, obviously won't say anything that

0:43:30.080 --> 0:43:34.000
<v Speaker 2>would identify him more, but he was he cared and

0:43:34.040 --> 0:43:36.799
<v Speaker 2>he wrote to me and said, Hey, so I've been

0:43:36.840 --> 0:43:41.000
<v Speaker 2>investigating XYZ and I know you haven't had much support

0:43:41.040 --> 0:43:43.439
<v Speaker 2>in the past, so I totally understand if you tell

0:43:43.480 --> 0:43:46.160
<v Speaker 2>me basically a bugger off if you don't want to

0:43:46.200 --> 0:43:47.920
<v Speaker 2>talk to me. And I was like, no, not at all,

0:43:47.960 --> 0:43:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Like I'm happy to talk. I'm actually really happy that

0:43:50.600 --> 0:43:53.200
<v Speaker 2>you're interested in this. But he was talking to me

0:43:53.280 --> 0:43:55.799
<v Speaker 2>about what was happening in that particular town he was

0:43:55.840 --> 0:44:00.520
<v Speaker 2>in and the problems and that essentially counsel are saying

0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:03.600
<v Speaker 2>they have very little ability to do anything, and since

0:44:03.640 --> 0:44:06.520
<v Speaker 2>the decriminalization of the sex industry, which you know, I

0:44:06.520 --> 0:44:10.000
<v Speaker 2>won't go into whether that's good or bad or whatever,

0:44:10.360 --> 0:44:12.640
<v Speaker 2>that's a whole other conversation, but he was saying since

0:44:12.719 --> 0:44:17.080
<v Speaker 2>that police task forces had pretty much disbanded going into

0:44:17.120 --> 0:44:20.560
<v Speaker 2>these types of places to check up on them, and

0:44:20.600 --> 0:44:23.839
<v Speaker 2>it's now against the law for police to say, masquerade

0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:26.960
<v Speaker 2>as a client and go in and sort of see

0:44:26.960 --> 0:44:33.279
<v Speaker 2>what's happening. So it's very tricky and there's still. I mean,

0:44:33.320 --> 0:44:35.440
<v Speaker 2>if there's anything that can come out of this conversation,

0:44:35.600 --> 0:44:39.520
<v Speaker 2>I would love for our state government and federal governments

0:44:39.520 --> 0:44:43.560
<v Speaker 2>to work together to create something that works, like something

0:44:43.600 --> 0:44:48.200
<v Speaker 2>that helps to stop these businesses from just popping straight

0:44:48.239 --> 0:44:50.080
<v Speaker 2>back up when they get closed in a new area,

0:44:50.520 --> 0:44:53.239
<v Speaker 2>or just going and doing at that time. What I

0:44:53.280 --> 0:44:57.319
<v Speaker 2>was told from the Prostitution Licensing Authority back then was

0:44:57.360 --> 0:45:02.400
<v Speaker 2>that they couldasically get a license to open these businesses

0:45:02.400 --> 0:45:05.200
<v Speaker 2>within a weekend, and then they'd open it up and

0:45:05.239 --> 0:45:07.399
<v Speaker 2>if they got closed down, it'd just pop up again,

0:45:08.160 --> 0:45:11.879
<v Speaker 2>same name, new location or different name, just pop back up.

0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:16.239
<v Speaker 2>So I don't know what the situations are now, but

0:45:16.400 --> 0:45:19.520
<v Speaker 2>I always encourage people pay attention to what's around you.

0:45:19.600 --> 0:45:23.120
<v Speaker 2>If you see this, you know, if you suspect sexual

0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:27.040
<v Speaker 2>exploitation or human trafficking, like report it via you know,

0:45:27.040 --> 0:45:31.080
<v Speaker 2>I think it's the AFP's online Human Trafficking Report. You

0:45:31.080 --> 0:45:35.400
<v Speaker 2>can do that anonymously. If you suspect something but you're unsure,

0:45:35.640 --> 0:45:38.280
<v Speaker 2>like you can always call police link. As many times

0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:41.200
<v Speaker 2>I've seen all different kinds of things and thought it

0:45:41.239 --> 0:45:43.440
<v Speaker 2>seems like it might be a little bit suspicious, But

0:45:43.520 --> 0:45:46.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't really have enough information yet, but I'm still

0:45:46.640 --> 0:45:49.319
<v Speaker 2>going to call it into police Link so that if

0:45:49.440 --> 0:45:52.040
<v Speaker 2>other people have called in things, they can create a

0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:56.400
<v Speaker 2>case around this. But I would love for our governments

0:45:56.520 --> 0:46:00.840
<v Speaker 2>to find the solution to how to stop these parlors

0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:05.799
<v Speaker 2>from just getting a weekend license certification opening and just

0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:09.279
<v Speaker 2>continuing to reopen every time they get closed down. We

0:46:09.360 --> 0:46:13.279
<v Speaker 2>need some way that people can keep an eye on

0:46:13.320 --> 0:46:16.080
<v Speaker 2>these places and find out the ones that are legitimate

0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:19.319
<v Speaker 2>from the ones that are not, and ensure that we're

0:46:19.360 --> 0:46:23.160
<v Speaker 2>not just leaving women in these vulnerable situations where they

0:46:23.200 --> 0:46:26.879
<v Speaker 2>could be victims of human trafficking, debt bondage, they could

0:46:26.960 --> 0:46:31.360
<v Speaker 2>be being anywhere on the spectrum from being sexually harassed

0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:35.759
<v Speaker 2>to being raped. It's just not good enough that they're

0:46:35.800 --> 0:46:39.320
<v Speaker 2>everywhere we look. We went on a little family weekend

0:46:39.360 --> 0:46:41.960
<v Speaker 2>away recently and we were in an area and went

0:46:42.000 --> 0:46:45.160
<v Speaker 2>to a restaurant and there was one of these parlors underneath,

0:46:45.680 --> 0:46:47.880
<v Speaker 2>and from things we saw in the restaurant, I was like,

0:46:48.880 --> 0:46:51.080
<v Speaker 2>this seems really dodgy, and I actually wonder if the

0:46:51.120 --> 0:46:56.600
<v Speaker 2>restaurant and the parlor are connected and there's fraud going

0:46:56.640 --> 0:46:59.239
<v Speaker 2>on there, or maybe like funds are slipping through one

0:46:59.280 --> 0:47:02.000
<v Speaker 2>from the other, and I looked it up. The phone

0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:05.839
<v Speaker 2>number for the parlor immediately brought up the forums. It

0:47:05.840 --> 0:47:08.399
<v Speaker 2>brought up the men talking about, yeah, I.

0:47:08.360 --> 0:47:11.160
<v Speaker 1>Got this back to your old gang. I got I.

0:47:11.160 --> 0:47:13.960
<v Speaker 2>Got money, I got I got this for this much money.

0:47:14.000 --> 0:47:19.480
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, it's so obvious. Why I am

0:47:19.520 --> 0:47:21.719
<v Speaker 2>I the only one that seems to know.

0:47:22.360 --> 0:47:25.279
<v Speaker 1>I'm hearing you, And I'm sitting here and thinking, Okay,

0:47:25.320 --> 0:47:29.280
<v Speaker 1>how do you approach it? The legal massage parlors putting

0:47:29.320 --> 0:47:32.800
<v Speaker 1>complaints against them because potentially taking their business away. I

0:47:32.840 --> 0:47:35.200
<v Speaker 1>suppose the legal brothels would be looking at it too,

0:47:35.320 --> 0:47:39.680
<v Speaker 1>that potentially taking the business away. You've got the council

0:47:39.760 --> 0:47:43.200
<v Speaker 1>with zoning restrictions, you've got the police, and you know,

0:47:43.600 --> 0:47:47.600
<v Speaker 1>I can understand, Well I can't understand because people might

0:47:47.640 --> 0:47:51.000
<v Speaker 1>say it's a victimless crime. But as you'll point it out,

0:47:51.840 --> 0:47:54.720
<v Speaker 1>maybe the way to put a dent in the industry

0:47:55.160 --> 0:47:57.920
<v Speaker 1>or slow it down more so than the legislation is

0:47:57.960 --> 0:48:02.319
<v Speaker 1>making people aware that this is not this is not

0:48:02.360 --> 0:48:06.600
<v Speaker 1>a victim less situation. These there's some terrible stories, and

0:48:06.640 --> 0:48:09.080
<v Speaker 1>maybe telling the stories of the women that have been

0:48:09.120 --> 0:48:12.200
<v Speaker 1>caught up in that might make people that are going

0:48:12.200 --> 0:48:14.600
<v Speaker 1>to use those services, think twice about it and go,

0:48:14.719 --> 0:48:17.480
<v Speaker 1>well hold it no, And why the thing.

0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:19.719
<v Speaker 2>Is the men are like. As long as the like,

0:48:20.120 --> 0:48:22.359
<v Speaker 2>the supply is always going to be there to meet

0:48:22.360 --> 0:48:29.520
<v Speaker 2>the demand. And unfortunately, unless we bring in legislation like

0:48:29.840 --> 0:48:33.480
<v Speaker 2>say the Nordic model that it started in places like

0:48:33.560 --> 0:48:37.200
<v Speaker 2>Sweden and whatsing. So the Nordic model is a part

0:48:37.280 --> 0:48:41.320
<v Speaker 2>to criminalization, part criminalization. So the people who are working,

0:48:41.360 --> 0:48:46.160
<v Speaker 2>whether it's male or female or transgender, they are not criminalized.

0:48:46.920 --> 0:48:50.200
<v Speaker 2>But the men I'm going to say men, because it's

0:48:50.200 --> 0:48:52.360
<v Speaker 2>going to be extremely rare for a woman to be

0:48:52.400 --> 0:48:56.520
<v Speaker 2>there to purchase someone, the purchaser is criminalized.

0:48:56.719 --> 0:48:59.640
<v Speaker 1>Well that would that would that would change the dynamics.

0:48:59.760 --> 0:49:03.239
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so then they're not criminalizing the person that's in

0:49:03.280 --> 0:49:07.400
<v Speaker 2>that situation. And they also provide them with other options

0:49:07.400 --> 0:49:11.960
<v Speaker 2>should they wish to access them, So assistance with child

0:49:12.000 --> 0:49:16.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, like child mining, child assistance, child care assistance,

0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:20.840
<v Speaker 2>all the areas that keep women trapped, which is poverty,

0:49:21.400 --> 0:49:25.640
<v Speaker 2>assistance with children. A lack of any other viable option

0:49:25.800 --> 0:49:28.200
<v Speaker 2>is really the reason why so many women stay in

0:49:28.239 --> 0:49:31.400
<v Speaker 2>the industry because they don't have other viable choices and

0:49:31.440 --> 0:49:35.080
<v Speaker 2>if you are choosing between homelessness or able to feed

0:49:35.160 --> 0:49:38.360
<v Speaker 2>your children, then you're going to do whatever that takes.

0:49:38.800 --> 0:49:40.319
<v Speaker 2>So there's a lot of there are a lot of

0:49:40.320 --> 0:49:43.560
<v Speaker 2>people that don't want like, they don't like the Nordic model,

0:49:43.600 --> 0:49:46.040
<v Speaker 2>but that's the only one of the only solutions I see.

0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:48.240
<v Speaker 1>Well, what's the argument against the Nordic model.

0:49:49.400 --> 0:49:52.600
<v Speaker 2>I haven't really seen any good ones. It's just like

0:49:52.760 --> 0:49:55.000
<v Speaker 2>it's just like, oh, let them do what they want,

0:49:55.120 --> 0:49:58.640
<v Speaker 2>and we shouldn't be criminalizing men for this. And you know,

0:49:58.719 --> 0:50:01.360
<v Speaker 2>there may be people within sex industry who are worried

0:50:01.400 --> 0:50:03.319
<v Speaker 2>about that because they're like, well, then you're taking away

0:50:03.320 --> 0:50:05.600
<v Speaker 2>my clientele, right, I'm not going to be able to

0:50:05.640 --> 0:50:09.120
<v Speaker 2>provide the service. But what I like about the Nordic

0:50:09.160 --> 0:50:11.640
<v Speaker 2>model is that they're not just taking They're not just

0:50:11.719 --> 0:50:16.359
<v Speaker 2>criminalizing the purchases and taking away the demand by you know,

0:50:16.560 --> 0:50:19.560
<v Speaker 2>finding them or they face jail time. But they're also

0:50:19.600 --> 0:50:23.120
<v Speaker 2>providing the supports that most often women are lacking that

0:50:23.200 --> 0:50:26.279
<v Speaker 2>would allow them to make a full body choice as

0:50:26.280 --> 0:50:29.040
<v Speaker 2>to whether they leave the sex industry. If they want

0:50:29.080 --> 0:50:32.120
<v Speaker 2>to stay, that's fine, but they're like, if you would

0:50:32.200 --> 0:50:35.040
<v Speaker 2>like to do something else, we will support you with

0:50:35.080 --> 0:50:38.959
<v Speaker 2>what you need to try and fulfill that. And that's

0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:42.000
<v Speaker 2>one of the only things that I would see working here,

0:50:42.040 --> 0:50:45.919
<v Speaker 2>because it does disincentivize men like I've read. I've read

0:50:46.040 --> 0:50:48.440
<v Speaker 2>the quotes from men who've been arrested, and now, this

0:50:48.600 --> 0:50:52.200
<v Speaker 2>is so unfair, and you know, like, please, my wife's

0:50:52.239 --> 0:50:55.359
<v Speaker 2>going to find out. You didn't care about that until

0:50:55.360 --> 0:50:58.879
<v Speaker 2>you got caught.

0:50:57.680 --> 0:51:00.640
<v Speaker 1>A pretty failed argument. If they're trying to this is

0:51:00.719 --> 0:51:04.480
<v Speaker 1>so unfair. Look, I think we're never going to stamp

0:51:04.480 --> 0:51:07.040
<v Speaker 1>out the sex industry, so that's the starting point. And

0:51:07.080 --> 0:51:09.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, they say it's the world's all this professional.

0:51:09.280 --> 0:51:11.040
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if that's the case, but you hear.

0:51:10.920 --> 0:51:12.799
<v Speaker 2>That, and I should just say quickly that there are

0:51:12.840 --> 0:51:15.520
<v Speaker 2>lots of people within the sex industry who are upset

0:51:15.560 --> 0:51:18.640
<v Speaker 2>about these illegal parlors and they don't want to see

0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:20.800
<v Speaker 2>people being trafficked and they do want to see a

0:51:20.880 --> 0:51:21.399
<v Speaker 2>change there.

0:51:21.520 --> 0:51:24.239
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think if we accept there will be a

0:51:24.280 --> 0:51:28.239
<v Speaker 1>sex industry, the regulations can put in the protection so

0:51:28.360 --> 0:51:31.360
<v Speaker 1>people aren't exploited. And you know, the world should be

0:51:31.440 --> 0:51:36.520
<v Speaker 1>about free choice, but regulations might be able to protect that.

0:51:36.880 --> 0:51:39.520
<v Speaker 1>If people are choosing to work in this industry, they're

0:51:39.560 --> 0:51:44.240
<v Speaker 1>protected in every one of their rights, their safety, their welfare,

0:51:44.800 --> 0:51:49.880
<v Speaker 1>the pay everything, so they're not exploited. It's a complex,

0:51:50.360 --> 0:51:54.200
<v Speaker 1>complex issue. You don't take on the small things there. No.

0:51:54.440 --> 0:51:56.240
<v Speaker 2>I had that said to me by an old bush,

0:51:56.320 --> 0:51:58.640
<v Speaker 2>was like, why do you always pick the serious topics

0:51:59.560 --> 0:52:04.200
<v Speaker 2>because interesting, Sorry, I don't want to do something on fashion.

0:52:04.280 --> 0:52:07.839
<v Speaker 1>But look, I think just the fact that you're raising it,

0:52:07.880 --> 0:52:11.720
<v Speaker 1>I think that's that's important because it's not talked about,

0:52:11.760 --> 0:52:15.480
<v Speaker 1>and it's sort of when you point out and I'm thinking, oh, yeah,

0:52:15.600 --> 0:52:18.080
<v Speaker 1>that flashing red light, or you drive through there and

0:52:18.160 --> 0:52:20.560
<v Speaker 1>you discover that stop the set of traffic lights and

0:52:20.600 --> 0:52:24.840
<v Speaker 1>look looked up. But yeah, it's I hope people listening

0:52:24.840 --> 0:52:27.440
<v Speaker 1>to it understand that. And I think the important thing

0:52:27.560 --> 0:52:29.479
<v Speaker 1>is it's not a victim less crime, and there's people

0:52:29.520 --> 0:52:32.279
<v Speaker 1>whose lives have been they're being exploited in the most

0:52:32.680 --> 0:52:36.760
<v Speaker 1>terrible ways. And you know the old supply and demand.

0:52:36.880 --> 0:52:41.000
<v Speaker 1>If there's no demand, that drives up the supply. I'm

0:52:41.000 --> 0:52:45.080
<v Speaker 1>looking at some other things that you're involved in, survivor advocacy,

0:52:45.320 --> 0:52:49.879
<v Speaker 1>so domestic and sexual violence. What sort of work you're

0:52:49.920 --> 0:52:51.160
<v Speaker 1>doing in that regards.

0:52:51.840 --> 0:52:55.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I've worked, I've done a lot of different

0:52:55.160 --> 0:52:57.080
<v Speaker 2>things over the last ten years, but I've worked as

0:52:57.239 --> 0:53:00.680
<v Speaker 2>a book coach, helping a lot of female survivors of

0:53:01.640 --> 0:53:04.839
<v Speaker 2>different traumas to write their stories and to share that

0:53:04.840 --> 0:53:07.480
<v Speaker 2>with the world and break the silence. And then I

0:53:07.560 --> 0:53:09.160
<v Speaker 2>also found it could I.

0:53:09.080 --> 0:53:11.680
<v Speaker 1>Just don't mean to interrupt, but do you think that

0:53:11.680 --> 0:53:14.880
<v Speaker 1>that helps them write their stories and talk about it

0:53:14.920 --> 0:53:18.080
<v Speaker 1>like that's something that's worthwhile doing. Yeah.

0:53:18.120 --> 0:53:23.200
<v Speaker 2>I've seen the most tremendous breakthroughs through the power of writing.

0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:27.080
<v Speaker 2>And I've seen people who have carried shame and trauma

0:53:27.160 --> 0:53:29.680
<v Speaker 2>for so long that you know, maybe they've chipped away

0:53:29.719 --> 0:53:32.879
<v Speaker 2>at it with their psychologists. And I will always be,

0:53:33.239 --> 0:53:35.879
<v Speaker 2>you know, a huge supporter of getting you know, good

0:53:35.920 --> 0:53:40.000
<v Speaker 2>psychological support. But they've worked through a certain amount of that,

0:53:40.120 --> 0:53:43.439
<v Speaker 2>but it's still living within them. That shame is still there.

0:53:43.880 --> 0:53:47.279
<v Speaker 2>And it's not until we go through the process, whether

0:53:47.320 --> 0:53:49.640
<v Speaker 2>they're writing a full book or whether it's women in

0:53:49.960 --> 0:53:52.920
<v Speaker 2>workshops that I've run for different domestic and sexual violence

0:53:52.960 --> 0:53:55.880
<v Speaker 2>services where I'm helping them to begin the process of

0:53:55.880 --> 0:53:58.759
<v Speaker 2>writing their story. It's not until they do that that

0:53:58.800 --> 0:54:01.520
<v Speaker 2>they actually go wow, well, I didn't realize how far

0:54:01.600 --> 0:54:04.959
<v Speaker 2>I'd come like I didn't realize that I'm not still here,

0:54:05.080 --> 0:54:07.080
<v Speaker 2>Like I'm actually here and maybe I want to be

0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:09.520
<v Speaker 2>up here, but I'm not where I used to be.

0:54:10.360 --> 0:54:13.799
<v Speaker 2>And I've seen, Yeah, women just have the most and men,

0:54:13.840 --> 0:54:15.279
<v Speaker 2>like I've worked with a lot of men as well,

0:54:15.400 --> 0:54:18.440
<v Speaker 2>male survivors of different traumas, and I've seen all of

0:54:18.440 --> 0:54:21.560
<v Speaker 2>them have the most amazing breakthroughs. And so I did

0:54:21.600 --> 0:54:25.680
<v Speaker 2>that for pretty solidly for about eight years and then

0:54:25.760 --> 0:54:27.839
<v Speaker 2>decided to have a break in twenty twenty four because

0:54:27.840 --> 0:54:30.920
<v Speaker 2>I was carrying a lot of vicarious trauma from all

0:54:30.920 --> 0:54:33.560
<v Speaker 2>of the stories that I've been carrying for everybody else.

0:54:33.719 --> 0:54:37.799
<v Speaker 2>I surprise, yes, surprise, surprise. And then the last couple

0:54:37.800 --> 0:54:41.800
<v Speaker 2>of years, I've been doing mostly speaking and so speaking

0:54:41.800 --> 0:54:45.640
<v Speaker 2>in schools and workplaces and running my Red Flags one

0:54:45.680 --> 0:54:49.880
<v Speaker 2>oh one program, which really focuses on the most common

0:54:49.960 --> 0:54:51.720
<v Speaker 2>warning signs of emotional abuse.

0:54:52.160 --> 0:54:54.640
<v Speaker 1>Tell us about that, the fact that you're in the

0:54:54.680 --> 0:54:58.120
<v Speaker 1>schools talking about that, because what I saw of it,

0:54:58.200 --> 0:54:59.960
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a great idea.

0:55:00.080 --> 0:55:03.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So we focus on the three most common red

0:55:03.719 --> 0:55:08.200
<v Speaker 2>flags of course of control and emotional abuse, because if

0:55:08.200 --> 0:55:11.320
<v Speaker 2>we can learn how to spot those as early as possible,

0:55:11.920 --> 0:55:14.120
<v Speaker 2>if I think back to my twenty year old version

0:55:14.160 --> 0:55:16.879
<v Speaker 2>of myself who was in that relationship with that guy,

0:55:16.960 --> 0:55:20.160
<v Speaker 2>and you know, I want people to spot those warning

0:55:20.200 --> 0:55:23.200
<v Speaker 2>signs that he exhibited before they get to their rock

0:55:23.200 --> 0:55:24.960
<v Speaker 2>bottom like I did. Like, I don't want them to

0:55:25.000 --> 0:55:28.360
<v Speaker 2>have to experience the things I did, so learning to

0:55:28.400 --> 0:55:31.040
<v Speaker 2>spot them and then equally as important, learning how to

0:55:31.080 --> 0:55:34.080
<v Speaker 2>set boundaries. So what does it look like, what does

0:55:34.120 --> 0:55:36.000
<v Speaker 2>it sound like? What does it feel like to set

0:55:36.040 --> 0:55:36.319
<v Speaker 2>bound So.

0:55:36.440 --> 0:55:40.120
<v Speaker 1>If you're a young girl and the young bloke comes

0:55:40.200 --> 0:55:43.160
<v Speaker 1>up and says, I love you, You're my soul mate.

0:55:43.239 --> 0:55:45.600
<v Speaker 1>I want to be with you forever, and if you

0:55:45.760 --> 0:55:48.440
<v Speaker 1>left me, I'd just die. Yeah, a couple of red

0:55:48.480 --> 0:55:48.920
<v Speaker 1>flags in.

0:55:48.920 --> 0:55:51.239
<v Speaker 2>There, and it's like, dude, you mind want to go

0:55:51.320 --> 0:55:52.640
<v Speaker 2>speak to a counselor about that?

0:55:52.760 --> 0:55:55.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Walk away?

0:55:56.000 --> 0:55:58.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I've got to fix him. Which, like, to

0:55:58.719 --> 0:56:01.840
<v Speaker 2>be honest, a lot of us, if we're very empathetic people,

0:56:01.920 --> 0:56:02.960
<v Speaker 2>we want to help others.

0:56:03.040 --> 0:56:03.239
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:56:03.840 --> 0:56:06.440
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't mean you have to be like go get

0:56:06.480 --> 0:56:10.319
<v Speaker 2>like like go away, go get your own help. It's like, well,

0:56:10.360 --> 0:56:12.080
<v Speaker 2>I can't help you with that, but you should go

0:56:12.120 --> 0:56:13.080
<v Speaker 2>talk to someone about that.

0:56:13.440 --> 0:56:16.120
<v Speaker 1>If you got what you're delivering with the red flags

0:56:16.120 --> 0:56:19.680
<v Speaker 1>one oh one in the schools. If you got delivered

0:56:19.680 --> 0:56:23.680
<v Speaker 1>that that made you sort of recalibrate and rethink your choices.

0:56:23.719 --> 0:56:26.839
<v Speaker 2>At the most, I've gone, whoa, that's what my dad does.

0:56:27.000 --> 0:56:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Like my dad gas lights. My dad, you know, has

0:56:30.680 --> 0:56:34.840
<v Speaker 2>narcissistic tendencies. The things he says and does are actually

0:56:34.920 --> 0:56:38.040
<v Speaker 2>emotional abuse. I didn't know that. I didn't think it

0:56:38.080 --> 0:56:40.799
<v Speaker 2>was that bad. And the whole reason I ended up

0:56:40.960 --> 0:56:44.359
<v Speaker 2>with in all of those really traumatic situations after he

0:56:44.400 --> 0:56:47.600
<v Speaker 2>died was because I'd spent so many years saying, oh,

0:56:47.680 --> 0:56:50.080
<v Speaker 2>I'll never choose someone like my dad, like I'll never

0:56:50.160 --> 0:56:54.239
<v Speaker 2>choose someone that's physically abusive and you know, does these

0:56:54.320 --> 0:56:59.080
<v Speaker 2>really scary things. But I wasn't looking for all of

0:56:59.120 --> 0:57:01.680
<v Speaker 2>the wasn't I didn't know what to look for when

0:57:01.680 --> 0:57:04.439
<v Speaker 2>it came to all of the emotional abuse. I didn't

0:57:04.480 --> 0:57:07.440
<v Speaker 2>know what gas lighting was. So then, yeah, I second

0:57:07.560 --> 0:57:09.759
<v Speaker 2>guessed myself all the time instead of listening to my

0:57:09.800 --> 0:57:13.520
<v Speaker 2>own intuition. And mostly I was just afraid to ever

0:57:13.600 --> 0:57:17.000
<v Speaker 2>say no because I was terrified of hurting people's feelings

0:57:17.280 --> 0:57:19.840
<v Speaker 2>and being seen as the bad guy. So it'd spent

0:57:19.920 --> 0:57:22.880
<v Speaker 2>so many years being belittled by my dad and thinking

0:57:22.920 --> 0:57:25.920
<v Speaker 2>like I'm a terrible, worthless person. So I only ever

0:57:25.960 --> 0:57:30.240
<v Speaker 2>wanted to uplift and make others feel good. So that

0:57:30.440 --> 0:57:32.680
<v Speaker 2>led to that. And in schools, I have to say

0:57:33.160 --> 0:57:35.600
<v Speaker 2>I've had a lot of young men, like a lot

0:57:35.600 --> 0:57:39.560
<v Speaker 2>of boys come up to me really positive questions, saying, hey,

0:57:39.680 --> 0:57:43.160
<v Speaker 2>this is happening. Would this actually be coercive control or

0:57:43.240 --> 0:57:48.000
<v Speaker 2>is this just bullying? Like what is this? And I

0:57:48.040 --> 0:57:49.960
<v Speaker 2>had a beautiful young man came to me one day

0:57:49.960 --> 0:57:52.960
<v Speaker 2>and share about his mum's story and what was going

0:57:53.000 --> 0:57:55.480
<v Speaker 2>on with her, And I said to him, you're carrying

0:57:55.520 --> 0:57:58.320
<v Speaker 2>a lot, like it's really beautiful that you care so much,

0:57:58.400 --> 0:58:01.439
<v Speaker 2>but that's a lot for you to car and if

0:58:01.480 --> 0:58:04.840
<v Speaker 2>you can, you know, if you can give your mum

0:58:04.920 --> 0:58:07.520
<v Speaker 2>that nudge to get support, that's great, but you you

0:58:07.640 --> 0:58:11.240
<v Speaker 2>really deserve to have support too, like is there anyone

0:58:11.320 --> 0:58:13.120
<v Speaker 2>you can talk to? Or have you talked to the

0:58:13.160 --> 0:58:16.400
<v Speaker 2>school counselor there's a lot of young men with really

0:58:16.400 --> 0:58:20.240
<v Speaker 2>good questions. You always get that odd ball group where

0:58:20.280 --> 0:58:22.560
<v Speaker 2>there's you know, the guys at their chest puffed out

0:58:22.600 --> 0:58:26.160
<v Speaker 2>and there got their arms crossed in their laughing. I'm

0:58:26.160 --> 0:58:27.240
<v Speaker 2>sitting now, Harry.

0:58:27.760 --> 0:58:32.400
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, but yeah, well I was going to say, like

0:58:33.040 --> 0:58:35.760
<v Speaker 1>I can imagine girls you're getting a lot from it.

0:58:35.840 --> 0:58:38.640
<v Speaker 1>But the fact that the young boys, a teenage boys

0:58:38.680 --> 0:58:41.840
<v Speaker 1>are also buying into it, is there warning signs And

0:58:42.280 --> 0:58:44.240
<v Speaker 1>just sort of a flipper is a warning sign for

0:58:44.760 --> 0:58:47.520
<v Speaker 1>boys can they be manipulated by the girls.

0:58:47.880 --> 0:58:50.439
<v Speaker 2>So in my program, I actually share a story from

0:58:50.640 --> 0:58:54.200
<v Speaker 2>a young man in the UK called Alex Skiel, and

0:58:54.280 --> 0:58:57.400
<v Speaker 2>he is a survivor of really severe coercive control. His

0:58:57.480 --> 0:59:00.960
<v Speaker 2>female partner actually did go to jail for a number

0:59:00.960 --> 0:59:04.160
<v Speaker 2>of years. But like you know, just like the stories

0:59:04.160 --> 0:59:06.280
<v Speaker 2>of so many women, he started the same like it

0:59:06.400 --> 0:59:08.960
<v Speaker 2>started with really small things like her trying to control

0:59:09.400 --> 0:59:11.840
<v Speaker 2>the clothes he wore, telling him how she liked him

0:59:11.880 --> 0:59:15.240
<v Speaker 2>to do his hair. And I said to somebody recently, look,

0:59:15.240 --> 0:59:17.760
<v Speaker 2>it's it's fine for everyone to have their personal tastes.

0:59:17.760 --> 0:59:19.360
<v Speaker 2>And you might have a partner that's like, hey, I

0:59:19.360 --> 0:59:21.360
<v Speaker 2>actually really love when your hair you do your hair

0:59:21.400 --> 0:59:22.440
<v Speaker 2>like this, or your hair looks like this.

0:59:22.520 --> 0:59:24.120
<v Speaker 1>So I have to keep bringing up here. It makes

0:59:24.120 --> 0:59:25.080
<v Speaker 1>me sad, but go.

0:59:25.040 --> 0:59:27.560
<v Speaker 2>Off, or we could get you like some nice wigs,

0:59:27.600 --> 0:59:31.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, I promise you laugh So I'm like, there's

0:59:31.760 --> 0:59:34.960
<v Speaker 2>a difference between someone that's just saying, hey, like I

0:59:35.000 --> 0:59:36.840
<v Speaker 2>really love it when you wear blue because it makes

0:59:36.840 --> 0:59:39.040
<v Speaker 2>your eyes pop or something like that. So I'm giving

0:59:39.080 --> 0:59:40.680
<v Speaker 2>you a compliment now because you've got a blue shirt on.

0:59:40.680 --> 0:59:42.680
<v Speaker 1>Do you take my hair? Why? I sit? At least

0:59:42.680 --> 0:59:43.360
<v Speaker 1>you like my shirt?

0:59:43.440 --> 0:59:46.680
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, I'm back on track. So I'm like, there's

0:59:46.680 --> 0:59:50.160
<v Speaker 2>a difference between that and then trying to control the

0:59:50.200 --> 0:59:53.200
<v Speaker 2>way that you do everything, control what exactly what you wear,

0:59:53.880 --> 0:59:57.200
<v Speaker 2>who you spend time with. They've got to know there's

0:59:57.200 --> 0:59:59.720
<v Speaker 2>a difference between caring and wanting to know when you're

0:59:59.720 --> 1:00:02.280
<v Speaker 2>part and it gets safely to wherever they're going, and

1:00:02.520 --> 1:00:05.680
<v Speaker 2>constantly sending messages where are you haven't heard from your answer?

1:00:06.160 --> 1:00:07.600
<v Speaker 2>What are you doing? I need you home?

1:00:07.760 --> 1:00:10.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that that can work whether it's a boy

1:00:10.680 --> 1:00:13.720
<v Speaker 1>the girl or girl the boy or whatever, that sort

1:00:13.760 --> 1:00:14.480
<v Speaker 1>of controlling.

1:00:14.920 --> 1:00:18.320
<v Speaker 2>And I share those stories like Alex's of what he

1:00:18.400 --> 1:00:20.720
<v Speaker 2>went through and how it escalated and by the time

1:00:20.760 --> 1:00:23.840
<v Speaker 2>they had children, just like so many women, he felt trapped.

1:00:24.080 --> 1:00:26.000
<v Speaker 2>He didn't want to leave his kids in that situation,

1:00:26.160 --> 1:00:29.000
<v Speaker 2>so he stayed. You know, he ended up being really,

1:00:29.440 --> 1:00:34.560
<v Speaker 2>really badly physically attacked, quite lucky to be alive. But

1:00:34.720 --> 1:00:36.840
<v Speaker 2>when I share that story, you know, there's always those

1:00:36.920 --> 1:00:39.160
<v Speaker 2>those boys that had their arms crossed, and they're a

1:00:39.240 --> 1:00:41.880
<v Speaker 2>bit defensive because they're probably thinking, oh, that never happened

1:00:41.880 --> 1:00:43.960
<v Speaker 2>to me, or what a sissy or something, you know,

1:00:44.640 --> 1:00:49.600
<v Speaker 2>like what a car call whatever they say now, but

1:00:49.960 --> 1:00:52.920
<v Speaker 2>it still resonates that cows control.

1:00:53.200 --> 1:00:56.840
<v Speaker 1>I've seen it where yeah, you see the blake that's

1:00:56.880 --> 1:00:59.800
<v Speaker 1>all of a sudden concerned. I better it calls his

1:00:59.880 --> 1:01:02.200
<v Speaker 1>up where I am and all that so it can

1:01:02.240 --> 1:01:02.600
<v Speaker 1>work back.

1:01:02.600 --> 1:01:05.120
<v Speaker 2>It's seeing that in my own life, like someone close

1:01:05.160 --> 1:01:08.040
<v Speaker 2>to me who had a complete breakdown and was having

1:01:08.080 --> 1:01:11.480
<v Speaker 2>panic attacks by the end of that relationship because of

1:01:12.280 --> 1:01:15.520
<v Speaker 2>how much his female partner controlled him and he was

1:01:15.680 --> 1:01:18.840
<v Speaker 2>just a shell, like he couldn't even speak to her

1:01:20.320 --> 1:01:22.600
<v Speaker 2>face to face when she was going off at him,

1:01:22.600 --> 1:01:24.480
<v Speaker 2>like he'd have to go to another room and text

1:01:24.560 --> 1:01:26.960
<v Speaker 2>because he was like having a panic attack and she'd

1:01:27.000 --> 1:01:29.080
<v Speaker 2>isolated him from all his friends.

1:01:28.920 --> 1:01:31.400
<v Speaker 1>That's a common thing, is the isolation.

1:01:31.640 --> 1:01:36.120
<v Speaker 2>That's a warning like, oh, they're changing you like, and

1:01:36.240 --> 1:01:37.919
<v Speaker 2>I don't like who you are when you're with them.

1:01:37.960 --> 1:01:42.240
<v Speaker 2>And fair enough, if it's an accurate comment, But in

1:01:42.760 --> 1:01:44.960
<v Speaker 2>knowing that particular person, it wasn't.

1:01:44.840 --> 1:01:48.680
<v Speaker 1>So okay, you've got that happening at the school's Project Karma.

1:01:48.840 --> 1:01:52.880
<v Speaker 1>What's not what's happening at the school Project Karma. Yeah.

1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:57.200
<v Speaker 2>So Project Karma is another anti trafficking organization not for

1:01:57.280 --> 1:02:00.000
<v Speaker 2>profit that I have supported for a number of years,

1:02:00.080 --> 1:02:03.760
<v Speaker 2>and it's run by Glenn Hully. He's an ex Victorian

1:02:03.800 --> 1:02:08.160
<v Speaker 2>police officer and private investigator and I came across his

1:02:08.240 --> 1:02:11.520
<v Speaker 2>work maybe around twenty sixteen when he reached out to

1:02:11.520 --> 1:02:14.120
<v Speaker 2>share the work he was doing overseas as well as

1:02:14.120 --> 1:02:17.560
<v Speaker 2>in Australia. But what I like about the model they

1:02:17.600 --> 1:02:21.600
<v Speaker 2>have is that it's centered around empowering the communities they're in.

1:02:22.240 --> 1:02:26.760
<v Speaker 2>So a lot of the criticisms of anti trafficking organizations

1:02:26.840 --> 1:02:28.160
<v Speaker 2>is that they can have a bit of that white

1:02:28.160 --> 1:02:30.560
<v Speaker 2>saber complex and come in and just say, oh, we

1:02:30.640 --> 1:02:32.680
<v Speaker 2>know how to do this, do it this way. But

1:02:33.120 --> 1:02:36.760
<v Speaker 2>the Project Karma Sentinel model is about empowering. Like let's

1:02:36.800 --> 1:02:40.320
<v Speaker 2>just say it was in one of the areas in Indonesia,

1:02:40.360 --> 1:02:44.240
<v Speaker 2>they would be empowering the local police, the local communities,

1:02:44.760 --> 1:02:46.760
<v Speaker 2>and I think maybe government as well. But like all

1:02:46.800 --> 1:02:50.880
<v Speaker 2>of those local communities are empowered to know what the

1:02:50.920 --> 1:02:53.680
<v Speaker 2>warning signs are if a child is being harmed or exploited,

1:02:54.120 --> 1:02:58.440
<v Speaker 2>and how does the community come together to firstly rescue

1:02:58.440 --> 1:03:01.040
<v Speaker 2>and get that child out of that situation, but also

1:03:01.040 --> 1:03:05.600
<v Speaker 2>get justice for that victim with getting justice against the perpetrator.

1:03:06.360 --> 1:03:08.560
<v Speaker 2>And so I've been like a huge supporter of their

1:03:08.600 --> 1:03:12.640
<v Speaker 2>work and they've created like they've just had amazing success

1:03:12.680 --> 1:03:15.680
<v Speaker 2>in different countries overseas. They do like they do work

1:03:15.720 --> 1:03:18.520
<v Speaker 2>here too. And then ethos is really about, you know,

1:03:18.600 --> 1:03:22.439
<v Speaker 2>providing support and getting justice for victims no matter where

1:03:22.520 --> 1:03:25.320
<v Speaker 2>they are or how old they are, and trying to

1:03:25.360 --> 1:03:29.440
<v Speaker 2>get justice against perpetrators. And they've Glenn's done a really

1:03:29.520 --> 1:03:34.720
<v Speaker 2>great job of helping police with certain like say Australian

1:03:34.760 --> 1:03:38.040
<v Speaker 2>perpetrators who've gone over the seas to try to evade

1:03:38.160 --> 1:03:40.320
<v Speaker 2>justice and actually finding.

1:03:40.000 --> 1:03:43.520
<v Speaker 1>Where they are and share that the Glenn Project to Glenn,

1:03:43.640 --> 1:03:50.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeaharma and Global you're also global ambassador human trafficking ambassador work.

1:03:50.640 --> 1:03:54.000
<v Speaker 1>We've investigators. Is that another part of part of what

1:03:54.040 --> 1:03:54.280
<v Speaker 1>you do?

1:03:55.240 --> 1:03:57.160
<v Speaker 2>So in the past, yeah, I did when I was

1:03:57.160 --> 1:03:59.960
<v Speaker 2>in Southeast Asia. I think one of the stories I

1:04:00.000 --> 1:04:03.240
<v Speaker 2>shared earlier was there's a friend of mine who was

1:04:03.640 --> 1:04:06.160
<v Speaker 2>living there for a long time doing undercover stuff. So

1:04:06.680 --> 1:04:08.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean shout out to him and all of the

1:04:08.440 --> 1:04:10.400
<v Speaker 2>amazing people that do this day in and day out,

1:04:10.440 --> 1:04:13.760
<v Speaker 2>because I only spent you know, a fraction of time

1:04:13.800 --> 1:04:16.800
<v Speaker 2>there learning about what was happening, and we wrote a

1:04:16.800 --> 1:04:20.360
<v Speaker 2>few articles together. But they're the people that are there

1:04:20.440 --> 1:04:22.080
<v Speaker 2>day in and day out trying to make a difference.

1:04:22.600 --> 1:04:26.360
<v Speaker 1>I think we think human trafficking and slavery is that

1:04:26.560 --> 1:04:29.560
<v Speaker 1>that's something from a bygone era, But it's very much

1:04:29.640 --> 1:04:30.240
<v Speaker 1>not is it.

1:04:30.360 --> 1:04:32.280
<v Speaker 2>No, it's just.

1:04:31.760 --> 1:04:33.960
<v Speaker 1>Maybe in a different form, but the reality of it

1:04:34.000 --> 1:04:35.120
<v Speaker 1>that's still still the same.

1:04:35.160 --> 1:04:37.240
<v Speaker 2>And we hear about it in you know, with the

1:04:37.280 --> 1:04:41.440
<v Speaker 2>advancements of tech, it's morphing and changing. But you know,

1:04:41.480 --> 1:04:44.880
<v Speaker 2>we see it even in situations like with OnlyFans or

1:04:45.120 --> 1:04:49.160
<v Speaker 2>online sex work. There's you know, sexual exploitation happens there too.

1:04:49.680 --> 1:04:52.200
<v Speaker 2>There's a certain perceptionist and again I'm not saying it's

1:04:52.240 --> 1:04:56.000
<v Speaker 2>the whole industry or everybody's experience, but we don't know

1:04:56.080 --> 1:04:59.800
<v Speaker 2>when we see somebody somebody's public persona, we don't know

1:05:00.040 --> 1:05:02.920
<v Speaker 2>it's really going on behind the scenes, whether there was

1:05:03.040 --> 1:05:06.600
<v Speaker 2>coersion there. Until you know somebody comes out and shares

1:05:06.800 --> 1:05:09.240
<v Speaker 2>later on. But that's just to say that we see

1:05:09.280 --> 1:05:12.439
<v Speaker 2>it happening everywhere. In Brisbane. A couple of years ago

1:05:12.520 --> 1:05:14.960
<v Speaker 2>there was a case that came out of women that

1:05:15.000 --> 1:05:19.480
<v Speaker 2>were rescued from a house in the south side of Brisbane.

1:05:19.480 --> 1:05:22.320
<v Speaker 2>I think it was like around Carringdale area. It was

1:05:22.400 --> 1:05:25.840
<v Speaker 2>quite a well to do neighborhood and the neighbors were horrified.

1:05:25.960 --> 1:05:29.800
<v Speaker 2>They're like, these women have been enslaved here, like we

1:05:29.880 --> 1:05:30.320
<v Speaker 2>didn't know.

1:05:30.920 --> 1:05:33.960
<v Speaker 1>You know. It's just I suppose a message if you,

1:05:34.000 --> 1:05:36.680
<v Speaker 1>if you've got concerns that something's going on, reach out

1:05:36.720 --> 1:05:39.760
<v Speaker 1>to authorities and even if they don't react on that,

1:05:39.920 --> 1:05:44.360
<v Speaker 1>it's documented now and then more people, more people reach out.

1:05:44.680 --> 1:05:47.360
<v Speaker 1>How's life for you now, it's good? Yeah.

1:05:47.440 --> 1:05:50.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. We just moved to Canber this year, so spending

1:05:50.720 --> 1:05:53.720
<v Speaker 2>a lot of time in nature and yeah, working on

1:05:54.360 --> 1:05:58.680
<v Speaker 2>almost finished a new book. And yeah, we'll see what

1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:00.720
<v Speaker 2>We'll see what adventures come up.

1:06:00.840 --> 1:06:04.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure something will come up. And I just wanted

1:06:04.240 --> 1:06:07.680
<v Speaker 1>to finish off with from this book. I've got the

1:06:07.720 --> 1:06:10.760
<v Speaker 1>heading here tools and tips for thriving after trauma. But

1:06:11.160 --> 1:06:15.600
<v Speaker 1>there's simple things. But I think we'll just quickly mention them, gratitude, journaling,

1:06:16.240 --> 1:06:21.520
<v Speaker 1>digital detoxing, discovering true self, setting strong and unapologetic boundaries.

1:06:21.880 --> 1:06:26.320
<v Speaker 1>There are four points you talked about overcoming trauma. Are

1:06:26.360 --> 1:06:27.680
<v Speaker 1>they things that have worked for you?

1:06:28.320 --> 1:06:30.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I mean I could always do better at the

1:06:30.880 --> 1:06:34.200
<v Speaker 2>digital detoxing, but yeah, all of those things, I mean,

1:06:34.240 --> 1:06:37.040
<v Speaker 2>and particularly journaling, Like a lot of people have said, oh,

1:06:37.080 --> 1:06:39.600
<v Speaker 2>but I'm not a writer, and I say, it actually

1:06:39.640 --> 1:06:41.280
<v Speaker 2>has got nothing to do with that. You could even

1:06:41.360 --> 1:06:43.680
<v Speaker 2>use the notepad on your phone if you wanted to,

1:06:43.760 --> 1:06:47.600
<v Speaker 2>But it's just about actually actually just brain jumping everything

1:06:47.600 --> 1:06:50.640
<v Speaker 2>that's going on in your head. And there's nights where

1:06:50.640 --> 1:06:52.360
<v Speaker 2>I'll do that just so I can sleep because I've

1:06:52.360 --> 1:06:55.960
<v Speaker 2>got too much swirling around. But there's a lot more

1:06:56.000 --> 1:06:58.640
<v Speaker 2>that I'll be going into a lot more deeply in

1:06:59.160 --> 1:07:02.560
<v Speaker 2>the new book, that Finishing Off, which really centers around

1:07:02.920 --> 1:07:05.880
<v Speaker 2>like just give like a little little tidbit, really centers

1:07:05.920 --> 1:07:09.480
<v Speaker 2>around the thirteen key steps people can take to really,

1:07:10.040 --> 1:07:13.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, live an out loud and apologetic life and

1:07:13.440 --> 1:07:17.000
<v Speaker 2>to heal and speak up and share their story with

1:07:17.040 --> 1:07:20.960
<v Speaker 2>the world in a way that's safe makes an impact,

1:07:21.040 --> 1:07:24.000
<v Speaker 2>but it is also safe because that's a really big

1:07:24.000 --> 1:07:25.600
<v Speaker 2>thing for a lot of advocates is that they have

1:07:25.720 --> 1:07:28.560
<v Speaker 2>that passion to share, but they may not have done

1:07:28.560 --> 1:07:31.960
<v Speaker 2>the deep inner work to be firstly in a position

1:07:32.040 --> 1:07:35.440
<v Speaker 2>to share, and then secondly they might not know how

1:07:35.480 --> 1:07:38.440
<v Speaker 2>to safely share their story. So you know, that can

1:07:38.560 --> 1:07:41.320
<v Speaker 2>lead to situations with you know, I hate to say it,

1:07:41.320 --> 1:07:44.720
<v Speaker 2>but with some journalists or with podcasts where you might

1:07:44.720 --> 1:07:48.600
<v Speaker 2>get asked something that you're not comfortable being asked, or

1:07:48.640 --> 1:07:51.880
<v Speaker 2>it might be framed in a way that's not necessarily respectful.

1:07:51.880 --> 1:07:54.920
<v Speaker 2>And it's really helpful if you know and you have

1:07:54.960 --> 1:07:57.560
<v Speaker 2>a guide, which is why I'm writing this book for

1:07:57.640 --> 1:07:59.760
<v Speaker 2>how to safely share your story, How to put like

1:08:00.000 --> 1:08:03.520
<v Speaker 2>professional but firm boundaries in place before you share your

1:08:03.520 --> 1:08:05.560
<v Speaker 2>story publicly, so that you can do it from a

1:08:05.560 --> 1:08:09.600
<v Speaker 2>place of empowerment, not feeling pressured to share certain things.

1:08:09.720 --> 1:08:13.479
<v Speaker 1>Or I think that's a good thing because we all

1:08:13.520 --> 1:08:17.640
<v Speaker 1>have a platform now that you can get what was

1:08:17.680 --> 1:08:20.680
<v Speaker 1>thirty years ago, it was completely changed. Now everyone can

1:08:20.720 --> 1:08:24.920
<v Speaker 1>get on a big platform and get opinions out and

1:08:24.479 --> 1:08:29.519
<v Speaker 1>share stories. But unless you've done it or gone down

1:08:29.600 --> 1:08:33.040
<v Speaker 1>that path, you have no idea. Like I'm sure you've

1:08:33.200 --> 1:08:35.920
<v Speaker 1>had negative things posted about you and the first time

1:08:36.360 --> 1:08:38.519
<v Speaker 1>I did when I got into the media. I didn't

1:08:38.520 --> 1:08:41.240
<v Speaker 1>care when I was in the police because people were

1:08:41.240 --> 1:08:43.760
<v Speaker 1>meant to attack the place sort of thing. But when

1:08:43.840 --> 1:08:47.200
<v Speaker 1>you're working in the media, and yeah, that's terrible. And

1:08:47.640 --> 1:08:50.640
<v Speaker 1>know some of the criticism was possibly right, but it

1:08:50.760 --> 1:08:57.200
<v Speaker 1>still hurts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I've enjoyed our conversation.

1:08:57.320 --> 1:08:59.639
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for taking the time to come

1:08:59.680 --> 1:09:01.920
<v Speaker 1>into day. I hope all the best for the future

1:09:01.960 --> 1:09:03.640
<v Speaker 1>and maybe we get you back to talk about your

1:09:03.680 --> 1:09:04.720
<v Speaker 1>next book when it comes out.

1:09:04.880 --> 1:09:07.280
<v Speaker 2>That sounds great. Thank you, Gary, I really appreciate it.

1:09:07.360 --> 1:09:07.639
<v Speaker 1>Cheers.