Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: It's happening in your neighborhood right now. Young women trapped,
Speaker 1: coerst forced into sexual servitude, hidden in planing sight, behind
Speaker 1: the doors of massage parlors and legitimate looking businesses, and
Speaker 1: most of us have no idea. In Part two of
Speaker 1: my chat with Jazz Rowlinson, we dive into years of
Speaker 1: work going undercover, gathering evidence, and fighting to make people
Speaker 1: care about the victims caught up in this world. This
Speaker 1: conversation is confronting, it's uncomfortable, but it's one we desperately
Speaker 1: need to have. Have a listen, Jaz Rolinson, welcome back
Speaker 1: to part two of I Catchkillers.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, we've talked about your early childhood and we
Speaker 1: finished off giving men good men a rap, but then
Speaker 1: we talked about some of the things that yeah, men
Speaker 1: don't shine in different aspects of their life. What I
Speaker 1: want to start off talking about now is your let's
Speaker 1: call it an investigation, because I think it was an
Speaker 1: investigation into the ced massage parlors, which quite often masquerading
Speaker 1: as a massage parlor, but they're brothels. And we'll do
Speaker 1: we'll do a disclaimer here so we don't get ourselves
Speaker 1: in the trouble. There are genuine, legitimate, legitimate mass massage businesses,
Speaker 1: but I think people that got their eyes open would
Speaker 1: know the type that we're talking about. One of the
Speaker 1: things again, and if I can just borrow your book
Speaker 1: for a sec because I keep referring to it, and
Speaker 1: I'll just the cover of your book is put you there.
Speaker 1: One of the things you refer to in your book,
Speaker 1: and that you think this was a turning point when
Speaker 1: you went over to Thailand and you're with a group
Speaker 1: and that you're looking at human trafficking, and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we went with an organization that supports victims
Speaker 2: of human trafficking, and so they had taken us to
Speaker 2: have a look at some of the I mean, I
Speaker 2: say have a look at but they were taking us
Speaker 2: through the red light district and we were learning about
Speaker 2: the places where many young people, boys and girls and
Speaker 2: women as well had been rescued from and that was
Speaker 2: really eye opening. That was some of the early days
Speaker 2: of me learning more about human trafficking.
Speaker 1: It left an indelible impression on your mind. But one
Speaker 1: of the things that you wrote in the book, and
Speaker 1: when you were walking through that group, a young girl
Speaker 1: reached out and held held your hand, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: in a confrontational way. It was in a way that
Speaker 1: it was almost you looked into her eyes and you
Speaker 1: could see her pain, and the quote I made a
Speaker 1: serious commitment, don't look away, I told myself, lean into
Speaker 1: the pain. Remember, nothing changes unless we choose to confront
Speaker 1: that which we wished to change. Powerful words, but that
Speaker 1: was sort of mentality. You came away from that experience
Speaker 1: and just seeing the pain in this young girl's eyes
Speaker 1: and there was nothing you could do to help up.
Speaker 2: And I reached out to the organization that we were
Speaker 2: with and I was like, look, I know, probably grasping
Speaker 2: at straws here, but you know, this is the young
Speaker 2: woman that reached out to me in the red light district.
Speaker 2: And it was in this place. I won't say the
Speaker 2: name of it, but it's a very famous place where
Speaker 2: a lot of men go to get sexual gratification. And
Speaker 2: there's a lot of bars and things there and the
Speaker 2: young women, you know, some of whom are underage, will
Speaker 2: sometimes be standing outside and they'll, you know, they'll wait
Speaker 2: till a group of men are coming, and then they'll
Speaker 2: put their masks on and they'll start giggling and they'll
Speaker 2: try to get you to come in. And this young
Speaker 2: woman just reached out and just touched my arm and
Speaker 2: I turned and looked at her, and she just kind
Speaker 2: of stared at me for a moment, and then she
Speaker 2: gave me this really small little smile. And it was
Speaker 2: so different to the other women who were like, come in,
Speaker 2: come in, like trying to get you to come in
Speaker 2: and buy drinks and things. And I was like, what
Speaker 2: is this woman's story, what's going on here? But we
Speaker 2: were walking through it the time to leave, and I
Speaker 2: just didn't know what to do, and there was nothing
Speaker 2: I could do except for the give her a little smile,
Speaker 2: just like I see you. And I did reach out
Speaker 2: to the organization later and I'm like, look, I know
Speaker 2: it probably sounds silly, but this is where I saw
Speaker 2: this young woman. Here's a photograph I got of the
Speaker 2: outside of it that shows her. I don't know if
Speaker 2: there's anyone that can go. And I was like, I
Speaker 2: don't know, can anyone do anything. I don't know if
Speaker 2: she's okay or not. But there was nothing I could
Speaker 2: really do. But that quote that you read was really
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what I've always tried to empower others
Speaker 2: with is when we see something, don't look away. We
Speaker 2: might not be able to help, when we can't help
Speaker 2: every single person out there who's suffering in some way,
Speaker 2: but what's important is that we don't look away and
Speaker 2: that we do do what we can. So when I
Speaker 2: came back from that trip, I was really committed to
Speaker 2: doing whatever I could wherever to help survivors or victims
Speaker 2: of sexual exploitation, and that included you know, running fundraisers
Speaker 2: to raise money for organizations or for rescued victim survivors
Speaker 2: that need support. So if I could help financially, I did,
Speaker 2: and I have supported various organizations for years financially. But
Speaker 2: it was also, you know, coming into the investigations I
Speaker 2: did into illegal brothels, It was also making a decision
Speaker 2: not to just like see those dodgy little flashing signs
Speaker 2: and those newspapered windows and just ignore it, as I
Speaker 2: did over time, to find ways to try and help
Speaker 2: some of the women in there, or to go to
Speaker 2: the police. And that wasn't really they didn't really help me,
Speaker 2: but I knew that at least I'd reported these venues
Speaker 2: and I was doing what I could.
Speaker 1: When you first went over to Thailand, how did you
Speaker 1: get involved in this group? Like what Initia that.
Speaker 2: Said that all stemmed from the festival as well, where
Speaker 2: I was working as a photojournalist, and so as long
Speaker 2: as well as meeting the men at the men's shed,
Speaker 2: one of the stories I picked up for that day
Speaker 2: was to do a story on Destiny Rescue and the
Speaker 2: work that they were doing in anti human trafficking, and
Speaker 2: so then I started to learn more about them, and
Speaker 2: I'd been donating to them for some time, and then
Speaker 2: in twenty I think it's twenty thirteen, I went overseas
Speaker 2: as part of a group with them, and that was
Speaker 2: when I went over and helped. You know, there was
Speaker 2: a young woman who was starting her own hair soil
Speaker 2: on business and we helped to renovate that space for
Speaker 2: her and help clean it and get it all ready
Speaker 2: for her to open her own business. And we helped
Speaker 2: with at some of the prevention homes with getting their
Speaker 2: gardens done or just helping in lots of different ways
Speaker 2: where we could, and at the same time getting to
Speaker 2: learn a bit about the issues that were happening over
Speaker 2: in Southeast Asia and the work that they were doing so.
Speaker 1: The Southeast Asia. And I'm sure it would be confronting
Speaker 1: seeing what you would have seen going on a tour
Speaker 1: like that. There's some I don't aspire to this, but
Speaker 1: I know there's narrative there that, well, that's over in
Speaker 1: another country. We shouldn't buy into it. That's helping the girls.
Speaker 1: The girls are there because they're paying for their families,
Speaker 1: and their families are actually forcing them into that sort
Speaker 1: of lifestyle, and that who are you a group of
Speaker 1: people from buying into the wake ideology and all the
Speaker 1: other criticism. What's your thoughts on that, because I think
Speaker 1: you can shout those opinions down pretty quick if someone
Speaker 1: came at you like that, going, well, you shouldn't interfear.
Speaker 1: That's their culture. You let them do what they do.
Speaker 2: Who I get it all the time. There's entire reddit
Speaker 2: and Internet threads written specifically about me and how prawn
Speaker 2: of the patriarchy or something like that. I've never actually
Speaker 2: read the article, but it comes up in SEO and
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh that. Sometimes it comes up and there
Speaker 2: it is again and it was exactly what you said.
Speaker 2: They're like write, you know, jazz ruins and spits, woke
Speaker 2: a gender or something like that. But a lot of
Speaker 2: men have come at me, especially men that do like
Speaker 2: to travel to Southeast Asia to exploit women's sexually. I'll
Speaker 2: call it what it is. That is what it is.
Speaker 2: That's why they go there because they can buy a
Speaker 2: girl for you know, back when I was investigating or
Speaker 2: learning about it over there, they could buy some of
Speaker 2: these hill tribe girls in certain villages for you know,
Speaker 2: a couple of dollars. They can get their beers for
Speaker 2: a dollar or a couple of dollars, and they would
Speaker 2: come at me and they would be like, well, they're
Speaker 2: you know, they're paying for their families, and basically like
Speaker 2: they're making a living, So why are you stopping them
Speaker 2: from making a living. And I've said, I've said many times, like, hey,
Speaker 2: maybe there are some women who are there who have
Speaker 2: other options, and they choose to do this specifically because
Speaker 2: they want to, and they have other options at any time,
Speaker 2: but a large majority are there because of a lack
Speaker 2: of any other option. And what I learned is that
Speaker 2: a lot of women are coerced, sometimes even kidnapped into it,
Speaker 2: or often love bombed, grow and coerced into the sex
Speaker 2: trade from hill tribe villages. And in those villages, they
Speaker 2: don't even have passports, so they don't have any way
Speaker 2: to get a job in the city. And just like
Speaker 2: in many relationships where we see course of control and grooming,
Speaker 2: someone might come to the village and these are some
Speaker 2: of the stories I heard when I was there, and
Speaker 2: they'd say, Hey, we've got this restaurant job and we're
Speaker 2: looking for young workers. We're looking for workers who would
Speaker 2: like a restaurant job. And you think about it. If
Speaker 2: you've grown up in an environment where you don't even
Speaker 2: have a passport, you live in the hill tribe, you
Speaker 2: live with very little. As a daughter, it is your
Speaker 2: responsibility to provide for your family. Of course you're going
Speaker 2: to go, hey, I'm going to take this opportunity and
Speaker 2: run with it. So they tell them like, hey, we've
Speaker 2: got these restaurant jobs and we can take you there.
Speaker 2: And then there's many cases where those young women are
Speaker 2: sexually assaulted, raped. Some escape, some don't. Others stay because
Speaker 2: they have no other options, they don't have identification to
Speaker 2: get any other job, and some, you know, believe that, well,
Speaker 2: this is what I have to do to support my family.
Speaker 2: So I always clap back at you know. There's an
Speaker 2: article I wrote for news dot com dot you many
Speaker 2: years ago where I spoke with an undercover worker who
Speaker 2: I'm friends with, and he shared with me his experiences
Speaker 2: of spending many years standing sitting alongside men in bars,
Speaker 2: drinking with them, pretending to be one of them. When
Speaker 2: I say pretending, I don't mean he engaged in any
Speaker 2: of those things, just he would sit in the bars
Speaker 2: and talk with them and pretend that he was there
Speaker 2: for the same kinds of things, and the men would
Speaker 2: say to him, Oh, well, you know, I'm helping her out,
Speaker 2: like I'm helping her to provide for her family. And
Speaker 2: he said to one of these men one day, if
Speaker 2: that was your daughter, would you like me to come
Speaker 2: along and take her and have sex with her and
Speaker 2: give her some cash at the end, like would you
Speaker 2: like your daughter to live that life? And it was like, well, no,
Speaker 2: not really. But it's like, you're not helping them. You
Speaker 2: think you're helping them, You're just helping. You're just pleasuring
Speaker 2: yourself and gaslighting yourself and pretending and gaslating others and
Speaker 2: pretending that you're being a savior to them. You can't.
Speaker 1: They can't dress it up that well, they're helping, helping
Speaker 1: these poor people.
Speaker 2: Go and give them, go and give them money and groceries,
Speaker 2: bring them groceries, find job opportunities for them if you
Speaker 2: want to help them, job opportunities where they don't have
Speaker 2: to be at risk of death or severe harm or
Speaker 2: sexual disease or anything, you know, lifelong trauma. Yeah, they're
Speaker 2: just just lying to themselves.
Speaker 1: And that's that's the sadness of it. But that's overseas
Speaker 1: and people yeah, well they I'm not sure how if
Speaker 1: they do actually, but you hear the talk of a
Speaker 1: sex tour or whatever. I'm sure it's advertised and those
Speaker 1: type of things. But with people like yourself speaking out,
Speaker 1: I think it's calling for what it is because it's
Speaker 1: almost like it's too ugly to really delve into. Let's
Speaker 1: look at the dynamics of it. But you've got young
Speaker 1: innocent girls from a hill tribe in a really starting
Speaker 1: off a disadvantage and the power in balance and then
Speaker 1: course to coming to the city to make some money.
Speaker 1: The families probably are this is good, We're going to survive,
Speaker 1: The family will have food. What the horrible situation to be?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the lifelong trauma that many of these women
Speaker 2: live with is just horrific, you know, from like there's
Speaker 2: women that I've sponsored, there is you know, there was
Speaker 2: a young person that I had the honor of interviewing
Speaker 2: who she didn't say that she had been in those
Speaker 2: sorts of situations. And I don't know, maybe she wasn't,
Speaker 2: but I also know that within that culture, it's not
Speaker 2: something that they want to admit to if they didn't
Speaker 2: have to be in that environment. But I've interviewed when
Speaker 2: and that we're in exploitative situations in other ways. And
Speaker 2: many of the women's stories or girls, you know, there
Speaker 2: were girls that I met on that trip who were thirteen,
Speaker 2: fourteen or fifteen and had already been out of the
Speaker 2: industry for two or three years.
Speaker 1: So how young were they when they're prone into the industry.
Speaker 2: So it's like it's like it's happening, you're not helping.
Speaker 2: But then, as you said, there's people who say, well,
Speaker 2: that's happening overseas, so why should we really care about it,
Speaker 2: And as long as they're getny money and then provide
Speaker 2: for their family.
Speaker 1: Well, it's not this similar to child pornography. The industry
Speaker 1: wouldn't flourish unless people want them to want to view
Speaker 1: view it.
Speaker 2: So don't take up with the demand for it.
Speaker 1: That wouldn't be there. And the girls over there and
Speaker 1: we'll talk overseas before we bring it back here. They
Speaker 1: deal with the shame too, like quite often they've forced
Speaker 1: into an industry and then they've got to carry that
Speaker 1: shame and their families reject them because of the work
Speaker 1: they did.
Speaker 2: Yeah horrible, and then they're like, well, what's left for me?
Speaker 2: Maybe I go back to that, because what else do
Speaker 2: I have tough for now? Like my family brought shame
Speaker 2: on my family, or I don't want them to know.
Speaker 1: So you've been over there, you come back to Australia
Speaker 1: and you're driving through your suburb and you look and.
Speaker 2: The newspaper windows, what's that?
Speaker 1: And your curiosity got the better of you. Described in
Speaker 1: part one how you went in there and that the
Speaker 1: person just slightly in the door. That's sort of an indicator.
Speaker 1: That's not a.
Speaker 2: Oh you're not male, what are you doing here?
Speaker 1: Be confused? Yeah, tell us that story. How deep you
Speaker 1: went into that? And I think you got on the
Speaker 1: social media chat or a chat line with people, people
Speaker 1: involved in the.
Speaker 2: Forum of some kind. Okay, that's as much as I
Speaker 2: will say. So. Yeah, in part one I was talking
Speaker 2: about that Queenslander house that I went to and I
Speaker 2: pretended I was new to the air and looking for
Speaker 2: somewhere to get a massage, and yeah, they would have
Speaker 2: been suspicious, going this is not our usual clientele. And
Speaker 2: that's where I met this woman that I called Chelsea
Speaker 2: in my book and began to understand more about what
Speaker 2: she was experiencing in terms of sexual pressure from men.
Speaker 2: Even though she wasn't providing sexual services in her boss,
Speaker 2: there wasn't forcing her to, she was still exposed to
Speaker 2: sexual harassment and very some very future scary situations that
Speaker 2: we both found ourselves in together. There were other places
Speaker 2: I went into where there was somewhere on the south side,
Speaker 2: and again it was like an old Queenslander home. You
Speaker 2: couldn't access it from the front. On the front it
Speaker 2: had like a big say like hot Stone Massage sign
Speaker 2: or something like that. So you know, I walked around
Speaker 2: the back, which red flag. If you have to access
Speaker 2: the venue from the back and you have to walk
Speaker 2: through their clothesline clothes, it's probably not very legit. I
Speaker 2: walk up and as I come in, I see this
Speaker 2: and look, I just want to say, first up, the
Speaker 2: people who go to these venues come from every culture,
Speaker 2: every background. You know. I've seen white men, I've seen
Speaker 2: men that aren't white. That particular day, I saw like
Speaker 2: a Lebanese man and he was with a young Asian woman.
Speaker 2: She looked very young, and she just had her arms
Speaker 2: like wrapped around herself and she was hot, like bent over,
Speaker 2: and he was just like walking out like all casual.
Speaker 2: And I was like that young woman like dressed in
Speaker 2: a little body corn mini dress. Doesn't look very comfortable
Speaker 2: right now. And I'm standing there in the back door
Speaker 2: of this like Queensland at home, and then this woman
Speaker 2: comes up and I said, oh, hi, I saw you
Speaker 2: do hot stone massage. And she was like huh, And
Speaker 2: I was like, you do hotstone massage and she was
Speaker 2: like hot what. I was like, yeah, okay, I know
Speaker 2: what's going on here. So I did my speel and
Speaker 2: asked for a business card. And sometimes I would get
Speaker 2: a business card. Sometimes they didn't have one, and they
Speaker 2: just write their number on a piece of paper. And
Speaker 2: then when I get home, I would search that phone
Speaker 2: number online and it would always come back to some
Speaker 2: sort of adult forum or a Twitter account, like an
Speaker 2: x rated Twitter account. And that was how I started
Speaker 2: to get this pattern going. And I started to look
Speaker 2: at more and more places, all different environments, like you know,
Speaker 2: some more CD areas and then some very rich neighborhoods
Speaker 2: where you've got million dollar houses interspersed with these little
Speaker 2: little venues. One night, a friend and I sat outside
Speaker 2: a venue that had been raided years earlier, and it
Speaker 2: was still operating, and we sat there and we just
Speaker 2: waited to see if any women came out because it
Speaker 2: was an open late venue like all of them. We
Speaker 2: sat there till about ten o'clock and no one came out.
Speaker 2: Like all of the others, you could only access it
Speaker 2: from the back door. I did go into that one
Speaker 2: once and have a massage. So what I would do
Speaker 2: is I would go in get a card, and then
Speaker 2: later on I would spend my own money to go
Speaker 2: and get just like a regular massage, which were often
Speaker 2: not very good massage, like my back would just get
Speaker 2: pounded for like fitspounding on my back for half an hoursage.
Speaker 2: I'd walk out with my back all ft up, you know.
Speaker 2: And meanwhile, you know, I was reading articles of men
Speaker 2: who were doing their own undercover work and actually sexually
Speaker 2: exploiting women in the process and getting paid to do
Speaker 2: these investigations. And I'm like, here, I am trying to
Speaker 2: expose what's going on, getting a bad massage and walking
Speaker 2: out as a saw back. But the whole reason I
Speaker 2: was doing it was to try to make connections with
Speaker 2: some of these young women. And usually I only had
Speaker 2: to go once to find out what was actually happening.
Speaker 2: I would build, you know, a little bit of a
Speaker 2: connection with the young women and they would talk to
Speaker 2: me about it.
Speaker 1: So while you're in there getting a massagssage, talking to
Speaker 1: them and they're revealing a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And often they'd be there alone. Sometimes there would
Speaker 2: be a ma massage there, which is like the feet
Speaker 2: female manager. And they they've been cases here in Australia
Speaker 2: where you've it's been reported in the news of these
Speaker 2: female mama sons exploiting these women, of forcing them into
Speaker 2: human trafficking. But there was one venue I went to
Speaker 2: one night and there was just a young Asian woman
Speaker 2: there all by herself, and she's massaging me, and I'm
Speaker 2: just sort of trying to talk to her about a
Speaker 2: day and she keeps apologizing because she can't really do
Speaker 2: the massage very well, and I'm so sorry, is this okay? Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's okay, It's really not, but it's okay. And then
Speaker 2: i'd say, oh, you know, maybe just like a little
Speaker 2: bit more pressure or something, she'd be okay. And then
Speaker 2: I hadn't noticed. I hear this sniffling, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: maybe she's just got a little bit of a cold
Speaker 2: or something. And then I hear more sniffling, and then
Speaker 2: I can feel her fingers just trembling on my back,
Speaker 2: and I say you okay, and then she just broke
Speaker 2: down into tears. She was sobbing, and she was like,
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. I'm trying my best. The man that
Speaker 2: was in before you, he's so angry, so angry, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not doing it properly. And I was like, well, look,
Speaker 2: if nobody's taught you how to do it, how could
Speaker 2: you you know? Like, how could you know how to
Speaker 2: how to do a proper remedial massage? Like, sure, you're
Speaker 2: doing your best, and just tried to comfort her. And
Speaker 2: at the end of that night, because it was fairly late,
Speaker 2: I said, how are you getting home? She's like, I
Speaker 2: get the bus. And I was like, look, can I
Speaker 2: drive you home? And eventually she was like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And I was like, because I'm happy too, like I'll
Speaker 2: wait with you here for the bus or I'll drive
Speaker 2: you either way, so I make sure you get on
Speaker 2: a bus or you get home properly, safely. So she
Speaker 2: ended up saying yes, you can drive me home, and
Speaker 2: I start driving her and then she says, oh, but
Speaker 2: you'll need to drop me off a little bit before
Speaker 2: the house. You can't drive up to the house. And
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay, why is that And she's like, oh,
Speaker 2: the landlord will be very angry. And I was like,
Speaker 2: what kind of place are these poor, you know, migrant
Speaker 2: workers living and she was like oh. I was asking
Speaker 2: her about it, like, oh, what's the you know, what's
Speaker 2: your accommodation? Like do you like it? And she said
Speaker 2: a few things raising red flags, which for example, she
Speaker 2: told me it was she lived there alone, but she
Speaker 2: was only paying say something like fifty dollars a week
Speaker 2: or one hundred bucks a week. I'm like, even back then,
Speaker 2: you know in that tiegrame, that's not that's not how
Speaker 2: much a house to yourself costs. And then she's telling
Speaker 2: me she doesn't want anyone to see her dropped off,
Speaker 2: and I was like, what in the world am I
Speaker 2: stumbling onto? You know? So I dropped her where she
Speaker 2: asked me. But then what I was finding with like
Speaker 2: to come back to the forum I was seeing, like,
Speaker 2: so I would go to these online forums which.
Speaker 1: Are just disgusted one of them. So I signed up.
Speaker 2: I signed up to the forum, and I gave myself
Speaker 2: a user name that was just like all of the
Speaker 2: other people on there with gross innuendos in it, and
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, I got to try and
Speaker 2: look like I'm one of them.
Speaker 1: And something like that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, they all gave themselves all kinds of
Speaker 2: stupid names, and it was, you know, it's a full
Speaker 2: boys club in there. So they're bragging about where they're
Speaker 2: getting their happy endings from, and the same time they're
Speaker 2: bragging about it, they're completely belittling the women. They're giving
Speaker 2: away personal details that would help people identify them, like, hey,
Speaker 2: here's her name, which may not have been it's her
Speaker 2: shop name, right, but they're describing her and then they're
Speaker 2: describing what services they got from her. So then every
Speaker 2: man that's on there right is going to go, oh, well,
Speaker 2: I know that Say Rose is going to I know
Speaker 2: she's done this for that guy, so I'm going to
Speaker 2: try and get that out of her too. And there's
Speaker 2: men giving their unsolicited advice about well, you know, if
Speaker 2: you if you do it properly, you won't even have
Speaker 2: to pay, you know, which is then getting into the
Speaker 2: actual rape and sexual exploitation. There were men that were
Speaker 2: admitting like, oh, yeah, she didn't seem very into it,
Speaker 2: or even she had bruises on her, but they didn't care.
Speaker 2: So I'm seeing this over and over and there was
Speaker 2: you know, some of the men were reluctant to give
Speaker 2: advice to new users, so I had to like be
Speaker 2: on the on the forum for a while, which was
Speaker 2: mentally very difficult just reading these disgusting things day in
Speaker 2: and day out, and you know, just making small talk
Speaker 2: really to try to create some sort of connection. Yeah,
Speaker 2: not not you know, not pretending I'm doing the things
Speaker 2: they are, but like, oh, hey, boys, I'm I'm just
Speaker 2: in Brisbane for work at the moment, used to being
Speaker 2: in the Sydney area. What's good in what's good in Brisbane?
Speaker 2: You know? What should I check out on the north
Speaker 2: side or the South side? You know those kinds of things.
Speaker 2: And some of them just couldn't help themselves. They just
Speaker 2: love to give advice. So they were giving me all
Speaker 2: the advice and where to go?
Speaker 1: Were we talking when you're online.
Speaker 2: They'd have to be thousands like because it was separated
Speaker 2: too via what parts of Australia, So I was only
Speaker 2: interacting in the Brisbane part of the forum.
Speaker 1: So they give me the doors if you go to
Speaker 1: this one ask for this girl.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they just say I saw this girl, you know,
Speaker 2: I'd rate her a three for looks, but tapped her
Speaker 2: and left, you know, like just the most misogynistic, vile things.
Speaker 2: It just had no respect. And like I said, if
Speaker 2: they saw signs of bruising, they'd even mention that they
Speaker 2: saw bruising or she wasn't into it, didn't put much
Speaker 2: effort in, but they got what they were there for
Speaker 2: and they left.
Speaker 1: And it's like, did anyone call the on this my chat?
Speaker 1: Or they're all down the same rabbit.
Speaker 2: Very occasionally they'd be like, say, one person I'd see
Speaker 2: who was like, hey, you should call that in, like
Speaker 2: they could be being trafficked. But most people, whatever, they
Speaker 2: know what they're like literally what they would say. And
Speaker 2: I've got many of these quotes in my book, like
Speaker 2: the exact conversations that we had. But it was like,
Speaker 2: they know what they're there for. They're all money hungry whorees.
Speaker 2: They're just over here to make money. They know what
Speaker 2: this is. Apout it's like no, like some of them
Speaker 2: may have gone into the parlors knowing that those services
Speaker 2: might be requested, others might not. You know, many were forced.
Speaker 2: There were venues I went to that had been raided
Speaker 2: in the past, or one of them was raided after
Speaker 2: I'd finished my investigations, and you know, I submitted all
Speaker 2: of this evidence to the police. They didn't really seem
Speaker 2: to care.
Speaker 1: So you gathered those details.
Speaker 2: I had screenshots of all these discussing conversations online with
Speaker 2: the exact names of the venue, the girls, what was
Speaker 2: being provided, the money that was being exchanged, bruising abuse allegations,
Speaker 2: and you know, the detective that I spoke to said, ah, well,
Speaker 2: there's two things. One was we don't help the victims.
Speaker 2: We just deport them back home. And I was like, great, Great,
Speaker 2: that's because that's really helping the situation the demand and
Speaker 2: is not going to be like the demand is going
Speaker 2: to keep growing, supplies going to keep growing. Deporting the
Speaker 2: victims and giving them no support, is it going to
Speaker 2: stop the industry.
Speaker 1: The police And I'm not really for me with the industry.
Speaker 1: The counsel enforced certain aspects of a police get involved.
Speaker 1: If a police did get involved then found out that
Speaker 1: this massage parlor was acting as an illegal brothel. Are
Speaker 1: the girls working their charge? Is that what they're deported for?
Speaker 2: At that time, there were girls that are being charged
Speaker 2: as if they were perpetrators of illegal crimes. This was
Speaker 2: prior to the decriminalization of sex work in Queensland, so
Speaker 2: I can't speak to what might happen now now. But
Speaker 2: I was told straight up from the detective, Oh, we
Speaker 2: don't help them, we just support them. And then I
Speaker 2: was seeing instances where girls were being charged for soliciting
Speaker 2: sex when they were in a venue where they were
Speaker 2: being trafficked or sexually exploited. And then the other thing
Speaker 2: that was said to me when I handed over, there's
Speaker 2: big wad of evidence, which was all the screenshots and
Speaker 2: breakdowns of every venue I'd been to and what I'd
Speaker 2: seen there, and the links even had like the URL
Speaker 2: links printed out, and I was told, oh, I'm really
Speaker 2: glad you put the links in because we're not we're
Speaker 2: not able to access this content, which to me doesn't
Speaker 2: make sense. I'm like, I'm sure you can access it,
Speaker 2: but they're like, I'm glad you put the rls in there,
Speaker 2: Like why am I doing this? Like why am I
Speaker 2: paying my own money doing this on my nights where
Speaker 2: I could be resting, spending time with my husband and
Speaker 2: nobody's paying me to do any of this investigation.
Speaker 1: And you would have thought, were you naive or did
Speaker 1: you have a sense that you're going to be pushing
Speaker 1: against a system.
Speaker 2: I was pretty naive at the time.
Speaker 1: I thought this proof of evidence I've gotten, Oh thank you,
Speaker 1: You've done all their work, and it will keep you informed.
Speaker 1: This is fantastic. But it didn't play it that way.
Speaker 2: No, And like I said, I did see that one
Speaker 2: of those venues was raided after I'd finished my investigations,
Speaker 2: and I have no idea of what I submitted had
Speaker 2: anything to do with that. I was just glad when
Speaker 2: I saw that it had been shut down. I don't
Speaker 2: know if it's reopen again now, because that's the problem,
Speaker 2: is that they just keep popping back up, either in
Speaker 2: the same venue or somewhere else. But in that particular one,
Speaker 2: they did find that the girls were being financially and
Speaker 2: sexually exploited by the female mamasan there, and the words
Speaker 2: were she was an extremely cruel boss who exploited these women.
Speaker 2: But to the outside, and again coming back to what
Speaker 2: you said earlier about the attitudes of some men, it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: they know what they're there for. They're getting their bags,
Speaker 2: so whatever they're just as bad as us, Like they're
Speaker 2: exploiting us for our money. And it's like, here's just
Speaker 2: one venue where we have evidence that the women in there,
Speaker 2: who I saw in tiny little mini dresses and mini
Speaker 2: skil and high heels were being enslaved. They didn't know
Speaker 2: what they were going to be asked to do, and
Speaker 2: they were being forced into trafficking for the men in
Speaker 2: that area.
Speaker 1: And I naive here, but sometimes that have controls of
Speaker 1: their passports and all sorts of stuff like that. Like
Speaker 1: it's really we're saying, well, everyone's for a choice, but
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily the.
Speaker 2: Wa same things that we see, the same patterns we
Speaker 2: see in every day like I sort of say, everyday
Speaker 2: relationships where COEs of control is a factor, you know,
Speaker 2: financial control is wielded.
Speaker 1: The thread that I picked up from your upbringing to
Speaker 1: where you are now.
Speaker 2: It's passports can be passports are often taken, and so yeah,
Speaker 2: how are they going to get home? Right?
Speaker 1: And would it be a situation also like they've offered, Okay,
Speaker 1: we'll pay for your flight over here, but you are
Speaker 1: the flight costs three thousand dollars and we're putting up you.
Speaker 1: We're paying for your accommodation. You ten thousand dollars and
Speaker 1: you've got to keep working.
Speaker 2: So that's called debt bondage, and that's really common in
Speaker 2: human trafficking, and it's exactly what you said. You can leave,
Speaker 2: but first you owe us all of this for bringing
Speaker 2: you over here, costs of like you're living. Often these
Speaker 2: women might be living on the same premises too, which
Speaker 2: is why sometimes in the situation with my friend and
Speaker 2: we didn't see anyone leave, So that was part of
Speaker 2: my evidence was maybe they are living on sites and
Speaker 2: they're just living and working from their twenty for seven.
Speaker 2: That's a big part of it.
Speaker 1: Tell us some of the personal stories of the girls
Speaker 1: that you got to meeting there and what their circumstances
Speaker 1: were and did they manage to get away from that industry.
Speaker 2: So one of the main women who I talk about
Speaker 2: in my book, I call her Chelsea, and she's the
Speaker 2: one I met in the very first venue and so
Speaker 2: there was a night where we gotten to know each
Speaker 2: other a bit and after that very first meeting, I'd
Speaker 2: said to like that very first session, I'd said to her, Hey,
Speaker 2: if you ever have any questions while you're here in
Speaker 2: Australia about laws about situations like that when you explained
Speaker 2: where the man just got naked and was sexually harassing you,
Speaker 2: you can message me, like if you have any questions,
Speaker 2: because here's the thing too, like, regardless of whether these
Speaker 2: women speak fairly fluent English or not, they're still not like,
Speaker 2: no one's familiar with all of the laws of the
Speaker 2: country if they've never lived there. And so I'd said, like,
Speaker 2: you can reach out to me about anything if you
Speaker 2: have any questions. And we stayed in touch, and while
Speaker 2: she was working in the parlors, yeah, we would. We
Speaker 2: would stay in touch and she'd chat with me. And
Speaker 2: one night I said, hey, do you want to catch
Speaker 2: up and she's like, yeah, I'm working over this side
Speaker 2: of Brisbane today in this particular venue. And I was like, oh, okay, cool, Well,
Speaker 2: I know you're I know you're a good massage, so
Speaker 2: how about I come in and I'll book a massage
Speaker 2: and then we can go hang out afterwards. And she
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, that sounds good. And while I was
Speaker 2: there in this venue where it was like in a
Speaker 2: strip of shops where there's nothing else open at that
Speaker 2: time of night, on a you know, kind of a
Speaker 2: main road, not a highway or anything. But there's no
Speaker 2: reason for anyone to be around there because everything in
Speaker 2: the area is shut. And it was just Chelsea and
Speaker 2: one other young woman in the shop, and when I
Speaker 2: went in, there was a man who was in with
Speaker 2: the one other lady and he was having his massage whatever,
Speaker 2: and Chelsea and I were just chatting away, and then
Speaker 2: we hear this noise from like the next particle, like
Speaker 2: behind the curtain, and this man goes. He was obviously drunk,
Speaker 2: and he was like, Oh, who's that girl in the
Speaker 2: other room. He's like, who is she? I want to
Speaker 2: talk to her? And it sounds ridiculous now, and I've
Speaker 2: had people say, oh, you make up these stories, like
Speaker 2: you use AI to make you used AI to make
Speaker 2: up these stories, And I'm like, first of all, my
Speaker 2: book was written before anyone any of us were use
Speaker 2: a Secondly, if you have if you think it sounds
Speaker 2: cringe or unbelievable, well that's how cringe these men are,
Speaker 2: you know. So he's yelling out slurring, Oh that girl
Speaker 2: sounds so sexy. I want to talk to her, and
Speaker 2: my friend just like zips up, like she just shuts up,
Speaker 2: and we sit there like what is this happening, and
Speaker 2: then she's like, is he talking about me? And I
Speaker 2: was like I think he is, like he must be.
Speaker 2: So we get really quiet and we're just she's like,
Speaker 2: just got her hand resting on my back, and we're
Speaker 2: both just laying their frozen, like what's going on because
Speaker 2: we're three petite women in like a store with one
Speaker 2: drunk man and he just keeps going and anytime he
Speaker 2: hears her voice he starts again like, oh, she sounds
Speaker 2: so sexy.
Speaker 1: Who is she?
Speaker 2: I want that woman, I want that girl. And we're
Speaker 2: starting to get really scared because we're like what could
Speaker 2: this guy be capable of? Like is he just some
Speaker 2: bumbling idiot or could he get violent? And thankfully the
Speaker 2: woman in the next room managed to placate him, and
Speaker 2: she would you know, she just she just giggled and
Speaker 2: like you know, used her charm to calm him down, thankfully.
Speaker 2: But then Chelsea and I had to just hide in
Speaker 2: that room, which wasn't a room with a proper door.
Speaker 2: I just had a curtain around it. We just had
Speaker 2: to hide there literally until he left because I said
Speaker 2: to her like, do you, like, how do you feel
Speaker 2: about going out right now? And She's like, I don't
Speaker 2: want to go out there, like I don't want to
Speaker 2: see him. So we waited until we knew he was gone,
Speaker 2: and then we came out and then I was like, right, okay,
Speaker 2: I'm going to bring the car up and I'll take
Speaker 2: you home. We'll go and do dinner or something. And
Speaker 2: again I was just like, these women are in such
Speaker 2: vulnerable situations. There's nobody, there's no security there. There's not
Speaker 2: even like a front receptionist or something like you would
Speaker 2: see in a legitimate business. And it's seven o'clock, eight
Speaker 2: o'clock at night, there's no one around. What would they
Speaker 2: have done if that man got violent? Where would they
Speaker 2: have gone? Who would they have caught? You know, it's
Speaker 2: such a vulnerable situation. And I was scared in that situation.
Speaker 2: I didn't know what to do. I was like, could
Speaker 2: I could I help in any way if I needed to?
Speaker 2: I don't feel confident to do that. So again, it's
Speaker 2: just people just have no idea what's happening inside of
Speaker 2: these venues. And I just completely reject the notion that,
Speaker 2: you know, they're all just there to make their bag
Speaker 2: and they know what they're in for, and it's all,
Speaker 2: there's no power dynamics at play, and they're they're all
Speaker 2: consenting adults and people have just got no idea.
Speaker 1: We seek a view of it. It's a lot more
Speaker 1: complicated than that. How did Chelsea play out? How did it?
Speaker 2: So we stayed in touch for quite a while after that,
Speaker 2: and after that she got out of the parlors because
Speaker 2: she was here to travel Australia and as part of that,
Speaker 2: you've got to do your I think it's like eighty
Speaker 2: eight days of farm work to get say an extra
Speaker 2: year out the rural area of travel. Now there's a
Speaker 2: whole lot that's been exposed in terms of exploitation on farms,
Speaker 2: labor exploitation, financial and sexual exploitation. She ended up on
Speaker 2: this farm out west of Brisbane, and so we kept
Speaker 2: in touch and I put her in contact with a
Speaker 2: woman out there who was working with international travelers and
Speaker 2: helping them with connections and making sure they weren't being
Speaker 2: exploited on farms. So I set that up. But then
Speaker 2: one day Chelsea messages me and she's like, so today
Speaker 2: I worked from was it like five like let's just
Speaker 2: say like five am to five pm picking tomatoes And
Speaker 2: she's like and I made thirty six dollars before tax,
Speaker 2: and I was like what. And I was like how
Speaker 2: many baskets? Like what's going on? And she's like yeah,
Speaker 2: so I filled. She say like it took me an
Speaker 2: hour to fill one basket. And I'm like what, because
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of those like little trendy rat baskets, you know,
Speaker 2: you put your little sprieks of rosemary in and your
Speaker 2: stuff in the markets. And then she sent me a
Speaker 2: photo and it was like this plastic tub like up
Speaker 2: to here, like up to the table, filled with tiny
Speaker 2: cherry tomatoes and she was like working in like it
Speaker 2: was like high thirty degrees or forty degrees. She's out
Speaker 2: there all day, twelve hours, makes thirty six bucks. And
Speaker 2: I was like that that is exploitation. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: is this the same venue that like asked you to
Speaker 2: do X y Z the other day? And she's like yeah,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, yeah, I would if I were you,
Speaker 2: I would have a chat to like am the lady
Speaker 2: that I connected you with? Because that's very exploitative. And
Speaker 2: I just thought again, like if she was here, like
Speaker 2: if we hadn't had that chance meeting and been able
Speaker 2: to forger connection and friendship. Who would she have talked
Speaker 2: to about this stuff.
Speaker 1: And she wouldn't and she wouldn't know, and she's vulnerable.
Speaker 2: Well, she wasn't allowed to have a break too. She
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to go to the toilet. Her friends there
Speaker 2: asked for a break because she was having a migraine
Speaker 2: and thought she was going to faint under the sun.
Speaker 2: Picking all day, not allowed to stop and drink water
Speaker 2: or go the toilet, and yeah, she got in trouble
Speaker 2: for that. So it's happening in so many different industries,
Speaker 2: like we've heard of it this the eighty eight day visa.
Speaker 2: We've heard stories in the news over the past few
Speaker 2: years of people who had their passports taken from them
Speaker 2: and told, hey, we can sign off on your passport,
Speaker 2: but first you have to you have to do these
Speaker 2: sexual acts for me. So that was in an investigation
Speaker 2: years ago that I mentioned in my book into what
Speaker 2: was happening with these eighty eight day visas. People that
Speaker 2: have experienced terrible things in different meat farm like meat factories.
Speaker 2: It just happens in so many different areas, and people
Speaker 2: either aren't aware. The people that are in these situations,
Speaker 2: like Chelsea, they you may not have anyone to speak
Speaker 2: to about it, so they don't know what rights they've
Speaker 2: got or what rights they can access.
Speaker 1: Are you disappointed with the spotlight you put on? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we talk about the massage parlors exploitation, now that the
Speaker 1: rural areas. Are you disappointed that there's like it's almost
Speaker 1: like this should be an expos a. Look what I've exposed,
Speaker 1: and they're not. All the law enforcement every bit of
Speaker 1: power comes down. But sadly that's not what actually happens,
Speaker 1: is it. There's no overly outrage media.
Speaker 2: There's seemed like a couple of exposees every couple of years,
Speaker 2: Like there was a big one I think it was
Speaker 2: sixty Minutes a couple of years ago, and they did
Speaker 2: a great exposee on what was happening with sex trafficking
Speaker 2: within Australia and within these parlors and motels and things
Speaker 2: like that. But it's not really like no one ever
Speaker 2: really talks about it very regularly. And it took me
Speaker 2: So I was doing those investigations for about eighteen months
Speaker 2: between say twenty thirteen and twenty fifteen, and there was
Speaker 2: one investigative journalist who said he was interested and it
Speaker 2: took months and months and finally set up a meeting
Speaker 2: and then he said, oh, so would you go on
Speaker 2: camera and talk about these things? And he's like, we'll
Speaker 2: give anonymity to.
Speaker 1: I always avoid that.
Speaker 2: I always fuck it up. He's like, we'll give that
Speaker 2: to any of the girls that you can bring forward.
Speaker 2: And he's like, but would you speak on camera? And
Speaker 2: I said, to be honest, like, I'm a little bit
Speaker 2: wary of doing that because this is organized crime. Yes,
Speaker 2: and my own mother is very worried about the work
Speaker 2: I've been doing, and I've had a lot of people
Speaker 2: telling me to be very careful. I don't know whether
Speaker 2: I've been filmed on camera going into these venues. The
Speaker 2: things I've seen are pretty scary enough that I would
Speaker 2: be a bit scared, So like, can't you just blur
Speaker 2: me out or darken me out like the girls? And
Speaker 2: I was like, ah, nah, I could need you to
Speaker 2: be on camera. And I was like, I don't feel
Speaker 2: very safe about that, and I don't feel like that's
Speaker 2: very fair. I've watched enough documentaries and things to know
Speaker 2: that you could easily give me, you know, privacy within this.
Speaker 2: And so it didn't go anywhere, and I was really
Speaker 2: really upset about that. I reached out to journalists, I
Speaker 2: reached out to council, nobody cared, nobody did anything. And
Speaker 2: then it wasn't until after my book came out that
Speaker 2: I had a couple of editors who said yes to
Speaker 2: talking about the things I'd exposed. You know, I wrote
Speaker 2: a piece for Mama Mia. I've written a couple of
Speaker 2: pieces for news dot com dot au on human trafficking
Speaker 2: over the years, but generally, yeah, nobody was interested, and
Speaker 2: I just I was like, to this day, I still
Speaker 2: don't really know of anybody like I'm sure there might be,
Speaker 2: but I don't personally know of anybody who's been investigating
Speaker 2: a legal broth and parlors in Australia other than the
Speaker 2: journalists who, for example, did that spotlight or that at
Speaker 2: that feature a couple of years ago and sixty minutes.
Speaker 2: But I knew of nobody at the time. There's nobody
Speaker 2: that could really give me much advice, and nobody seemed
Speaker 2: to really care about it. So it was very much
Speaker 2: what you said, that it's happening everywhere, It's happening in
Speaker 2: plain sight, it's not even hidden, and nobody seems to
Speaker 2: care and there was a journalist so I spoke to
Speaker 2: earlier this year and like, obviously won't say anything that
Speaker 2: would identify him more, but he was he cared and
Speaker 2: he wrote to me and said, Hey, so I've been
Speaker 2: investigating XYZ and I know you haven't had much support
Speaker 2: in the past, so I totally understand if you tell
Speaker 2: me basically a bugger off if you don't want to
Speaker 2: talk to me. And I was like, no, not at all,
Speaker 2: Like I'm happy to talk. I'm actually really happy that
Speaker 2: you're interested in this. But he was talking to me
Speaker 2: about what was happening in that particular town he was
Speaker 2: in and the problems and that essentially counsel are saying
Speaker 2: they have very little ability to do anything, and since
Speaker 2: the decriminalization of the sex industry, which you know, I
Speaker 2: won't go into whether that's good or bad or whatever,
Speaker 2: that's a whole other conversation, but he was saying since
Speaker 2: that police task forces had pretty much disbanded going into
Speaker 2: these types of places to check up on them, and
Speaker 2: it's now against the law for police to say, masquerade
Speaker 2: as a client and go in and sort of see
Speaker 2: what's happening. So it's very tricky and there's still. I mean,
Speaker 2: if there's anything that can come out of this conversation,
Speaker 2: I would love for our state government and federal governments
Speaker 2: to work together to create something that works, like something
Speaker 2: that helps to stop these businesses from just popping straight
Speaker 2: back up when they get closed in a new area,
Speaker 2: or just going and doing at that time. What I
Speaker 2: was told from the Prostitution Licensing Authority back then was
Speaker 2: that they couldasically get a license to open these businesses
Speaker 2: within a weekend, and then they'd open it up and
Speaker 2: if they got closed down, it'd just pop up again,
Speaker 2: same name, new location or different name, just pop back up.
Speaker 2: So I don't know what the situations are now, but
Speaker 2: I always encourage people pay attention to what's around you.
Speaker 2: If you see this, you know, if you suspect sexual
Speaker 2: exploitation or human trafficking, like report it via you know,
Speaker 2: I think it's the AFP's online Human Trafficking Report. You
Speaker 2: can do that anonymously. If you suspect something but you're unsure,
Speaker 2: like you can always call police link. As many times
Speaker 2: I've seen all different kinds of things and thought it
Speaker 2: seems like it might be a little bit suspicious, But
Speaker 2: I don't really have enough information yet, but I'm still
Speaker 2: going to call it into police Link so that if
Speaker 2: other people have called in things, they can create a
Speaker 2: case around this. But I would love for our governments
Speaker 2: to find the solution to how to stop these parlors
Speaker 2: from just getting a weekend license certification opening and just
Speaker 2: continuing to reopen every time they get closed down. We
Speaker 2: need some way that people can keep an eye on
Speaker 2: these places and find out the ones that are legitimate
Speaker 2: from the ones that are not, and ensure that we're
Speaker 2: not just leaving women in these vulnerable situations where they
Speaker 2: could be victims of human trafficking, debt bondage, they could
Speaker 2: be being anywhere on the spectrum from being sexually harassed
Speaker 2: to being raped. It's just not good enough that they're
Speaker 2: everywhere we look. We went on a little family weekend
Speaker 2: away recently and we were in an area and went
Speaker 2: to a restaurant and there was one of these parlors underneath,
Speaker 2: and from things we saw in the restaurant, I was like,
Speaker 2: this seems really dodgy, and I actually wonder if the
Speaker 2: restaurant and the parlor are connected and there's fraud going
Speaker 2: on there, or maybe like funds are slipping through one
Speaker 2: from the other, and I looked it up. The phone
Speaker 2: number for the parlor immediately brought up the forums. It
Speaker 2: brought up the men talking about, yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Got this back to your old gang. I got I.
Speaker 2: Got money, I got I got this for this much money.
Speaker 2: And I was like, it's so obvious. Why I am
Speaker 2: I the only one that seems to know.
Speaker 1: I'm hearing you, And I'm sitting here and thinking, Okay,
Speaker 1: how do you approach it? The legal massage parlors putting
Speaker 1: complaints against them because potentially taking their business away. I
Speaker 1: suppose the legal brothels would be looking at it too,
Speaker 1: that potentially taking the business away. You've got the council
Speaker 1: with zoning restrictions, you've got the police, and you know,
Speaker 1: I can understand, Well I can't understand because people might
Speaker 1: say it's a victimless crime. But as you'll point it out,
Speaker 1: maybe the way to put a dent in the industry
Speaker 1: or slow it down more so than the legislation is
Speaker 1: making people aware that this is not this is not
Speaker 1: a victim less situation. These there's some terrible stories, and
Speaker 1: maybe telling the stories of the women that have been
Speaker 1: caught up in that might make people that are going
Speaker 1: to use those services, think twice about it and go,
Speaker 1: well hold it no, And why the thing.
Speaker 2: Is the men are like. As long as the like,
Speaker 2: the supply is always going to be there to meet
Speaker 2: the demand. And unfortunately, unless we bring in legislation like
Speaker 2: say the Nordic model that it started in places like
Speaker 2: Sweden and whatsing. So the Nordic model is a part
Speaker 2: to criminalization, part criminalization. So the people who are working,
Speaker 2: whether it's male or female or transgender, they are not criminalized.
Speaker 2: But the men I'm going to say men, because it's
Speaker 2: going to be extremely rare for a woman to be
Speaker 2: there to purchase someone, the purchaser is criminalized.
Speaker 1: Well that would that would that would change the dynamics.
Speaker 2: Yes, so then they're not criminalizing the person that's in
Speaker 2: that situation. And they also provide them with other options
Speaker 2: should they wish to access them, So assistance with child
Speaker 2: you know, like child mining, child assistance, child care assistance,
Speaker 2: all the areas that keep women trapped, which is poverty,
Speaker 2: assistance with children. A lack of any other viable option
Speaker 2: is really the reason why so many women stay in
Speaker 2: the industry because they don't have other viable choices and
Speaker 2: if you are choosing between homelessness or able to feed
Speaker 2: your children, then you're going to do whatever that takes.
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of there are a lot of
Speaker 2: people that don't want like, they don't like the Nordic model,
Speaker 2: but that's the only one of the only solutions I see.
Speaker 1: Well, what's the argument against the Nordic model.
Speaker 2: I haven't really seen any good ones. It's just like
Speaker 2: it's just like, oh, let them do what they want,
Speaker 2: and we shouldn't be criminalizing men for this. And you know,
Speaker 2: there may be people within sex industry who are worried
Speaker 2: about that because they're like, well, then you're taking away
Speaker 2: my clientele, right, I'm not going to be able to
Speaker 2: provide the service. But what I like about the Nordic
Speaker 2: model is that they're not just taking They're not just
Speaker 2: criminalizing the purchases and taking away the demand by you know,
Speaker 2: finding them or they face jail time. But they're also
Speaker 2: providing the supports that most often women are lacking that
Speaker 2: would allow them to make a full body choice as
Speaker 2: to whether they leave the sex industry. If they want
Speaker 2: to stay, that's fine, but they're like, if you would
Speaker 2: like to do something else, we will support you with
Speaker 2: what you need to try and fulfill that. And that's
Speaker 2: one of the only things that I would see working here,
Speaker 2: because it does disincentivize men like I've read. I've read
Speaker 2: the quotes from men who've been arrested, and now, this
Speaker 2: is so unfair, and you know, like, please, my wife's
Speaker 2: going to find out. You didn't care about that until
Speaker 2: you got caught.
Speaker 1: A pretty failed argument. If they're trying to this is
Speaker 1: so unfair. Look, I think we're never going to stamp
Speaker 1: out the sex industry, so that's the starting point. And
Speaker 1: you know, they say it's the world's all this professional.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's the case, but you hear.
Speaker 2: That, and I should just say quickly that there are
Speaker 2: lots of people within the sex industry who are upset
Speaker 2: about these illegal parlors and they don't want to see
Speaker 2: people being trafficked and they do want to see a
Speaker 2: change there.
Speaker 1: Well, I think if we accept there will be a
Speaker 1: sex industry, the regulations can put in the protection so
Speaker 1: people aren't exploited. And you know, the world should be
Speaker 1: about free choice, but regulations might be able to protect that.
Speaker 1: If people are choosing to work in this industry, they're
Speaker 1: protected in every one of their rights, their safety, their welfare,
Speaker 1: the pay everything, so they're not exploited. It's a complex,
Speaker 1: complex issue. You don't take on the small things there. No.
Speaker 2: I had that said to me by an old bush,
Speaker 2: was like, why do you always pick the serious topics
Speaker 2: because interesting, Sorry, I don't want to do something on fashion.
Speaker 1: But look, I think just the fact that you're raising it,
Speaker 1: I think that's that's important because it's not talked about,
Speaker 1: and it's sort of when you point out and I'm thinking, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that flashing red light, or you drive through there and
Speaker 1: you discover that stop the set of traffic lights and
Speaker 1: look looked up. But yeah, it's I hope people listening
Speaker 1: to it understand that. And I think the important thing
Speaker 1: is it's not a victim less crime, and there's people
Speaker 1: whose lives have been they're being exploited in the most
Speaker 1: terrible ways. And you know the old supply and demand.
Speaker 1: If there's no demand, that drives up the supply. I'm
Speaker 1: looking at some other things that you're involved in, survivor advocacy,
Speaker 1: so domestic and sexual violence. What sort of work you're
Speaker 1: doing in that regards.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've worked, I've done a lot of different
Speaker 2: things over the last ten years, but I've worked as
Speaker 2: a book coach, helping a lot of female survivors of
Speaker 2: different traumas to write their stories and to share that
Speaker 2: with the world and break the silence. And then I
Speaker 2: also found it could I.
Speaker 1: Just don't mean to interrupt, but do you think that
Speaker 1: that helps them write their stories and talk about it
Speaker 1: like that's something that's worthwhile doing. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I've seen the most tremendous breakthroughs through the power of writing.
Speaker 2: And I've seen people who have carried shame and trauma
Speaker 2: for so long that you know, maybe they've chipped away
Speaker 2: at it with their psychologists. And I will always be,
Speaker 2: you know, a huge supporter of getting you know, good
Speaker 2: psychological support. But they've worked through a certain amount of that,
Speaker 2: but it's still living within them. That shame is still there.
Speaker 2: And it's not until we go through the process, whether
Speaker 2: they're writing a full book or whether it's women in
Speaker 2: workshops that I've run for different domestic and sexual violence
Speaker 2: services where I'm helping them to begin the process of
Speaker 2: writing their story. It's not until they do that that
Speaker 2: they actually go wow, well, I didn't realize how far
Speaker 2: I'd come like I didn't realize that I'm not still here,
Speaker 2: Like I'm actually here and maybe I want to be
Speaker 2: up here, but I'm not where I used to be.
Speaker 2: And I've seen, Yeah, women just have the most and men,
Speaker 2: like I've worked with a lot of men as well,
Speaker 2: male survivors of different traumas, and I've seen all of
Speaker 2: them have the most amazing breakthroughs. And so I did
Speaker 2: that for pretty solidly for about eight years and then
Speaker 2: decided to have a break in twenty twenty four because
Speaker 2: I was carrying a lot of vicarious trauma from all
Speaker 2: of the stories that I've been carrying for everybody else.
Speaker 2: I surprise, yes, surprise, surprise. And then the last couple
Speaker 2: of years, I've been doing mostly speaking and so speaking
Speaker 2: in schools and workplaces and running my Red Flags one
Speaker 2: oh one program, which really focuses on the most common
Speaker 2: warning signs of emotional abuse.
Speaker 1: Tell us about that, the fact that you're in the
Speaker 1: schools talking about that, because what I saw of it,
Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we focus on the three most common red
Speaker 2: flags of course of control and emotional abuse, because if
Speaker 2: we can learn how to spot those as early as possible,
Speaker 2: if I think back to my twenty year old version
Speaker 2: of myself who was in that relationship with that guy,
Speaker 2: and you know, I want people to spot those warning
Speaker 2: signs that he exhibited before they get to their rock
Speaker 2: bottom like I did. Like, I don't want them to
Speaker 2: have to experience the things I did, so learning to
Speaker 2: spot them and then equally as important, learning how to
Speaker 2: set boundaries. So what does it look like, what does
Speaker 2: it sound like? What does it feel like to set
Speaker 2: bound So.
Speaker 1: If you're a young girl and the young bloke comes
Speaker 1: up and says, I love you, You're my soul mate.
Speaker 1: I want to be with you forever, and if you
Speaker 1: left me, I'd just die. Yeah, a couple of red
Speaker 1: flags in.
Speaker 2: There, and it's like, dude, you mind want to go
Speaker 2: speak to a counselor about that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Walk away?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've got to fix him. Which, like, to
Speaker 2: be honest, a lot of us, if we're very empathetic people,
Speaker 2: we want to help others.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean you have to be like go get
Speaker 2: like like go away, go get your own help. It's like, well,
Speaker 2: I can't help you with that, but you should go
Speaker 2: talk to someone about that.
Speaker 1: If you got what you're delivering with the red flags
Speaker 1: one oh one in the schools. If you got delivered
Speaker 1: that that made you sort of recalibrate and rethink your choices.
Speaker 2: At the most, I've gone, whoa, that's what my dad does.
Speaker 2: Like my dad gas lights. My dad, you know, has
Speaker 2: narcissistic tendencies. The things he says and does are actually
Speaker 2: emotional abuse. I didn't know that. I didn't think it
Speaker 2: was that bad. And the whole reason I ended up
Speaker 2: with in all of those really traumatic situations after he
Speaker 2: died was because I'd spent so many years saying, oh,
Speaker 2: I'll never choose someone like my dad, like I'll never
Speaker 2: choose someone that's physically abusive and you know, does these
Speaker 2: really scary things. But I wasn't looking for all of
Speaker 2: the wasn't I didn't know what to look for when
Speaker 2: it came to all of the emotional abuse. I didn't
Speaker 2: know what gas lighting was. So then, yeah, I second
Speaker 2: guessed myself all the time instead of listening to my
Speaker 2: own intuition. And mostly I was just afraid to ever
Speaker 2: say no because I was terrified of hurting people's feelings
Speaker 2: and being seen as the bad guy. So it'd spent
Speaker 2: so many years being belittled by my dad and thinking
Speaker 2: like I'm a terrible, worthless person. So I only ever
Speaker 2: wanted to uplift and make others feel good. So that
Speaker 2: led to that. And in schools, I have to say
Speaker 2: I've had a lot of young men, like a lot
Speaker 2: of boys come up to me really positive questions, saying, hey,
Speaker 2: this is happening. Would this actually be coercive control or
Speaker 2: is this just bullying? Like what is this? And I
Speaker 2: had a beautiful young man came to me one day
Speaker 2: and share about his mum's story and what was going
Speaker 2: on with her, And I said to him, you're carrying
Speaker 2: a lot, like it's really beautiful that you care so much,
Speaker 2: but that's a lot for you to car and if
Speaker 2: you can, you know, if you can give your mum
Speaker 2: that nudge to get support, that's great, but you you
Speaker 2: really deserve to have support too, like is there anyone
Speaker 2: you can talk to? Or have you talked to the
Speaker 2: school counselor there's a lot of young men with really
Speaker 2: good questions. You always get that odd ball group where
Speaker 2: there's you know, the guys at their chest puffed out
Speaker 2: and there got their arms crossed in their laughing. I'm
Speaker 2: sitting now, Harry.
Speaker 1: Sorry, but yeah, well I was going to say, like
Speaker 1: I can imagine girls you're getting a lot from it.
Speaker 1: But the fact that the young boys, a teenage boys
Speaker 1: are also buying into it, is there warning signs And
Speaker 1: just sort of a flipper is a warning sign for
Speaker 1: boys can they be manipulated by the girls.
Speaker 2: So in my program, I actually share a story from
Speaker 2: a young man in the UK called Alex Skiel, and
Speaker 2: he is a survivor of really severe coercive control. His
Speaker 2: female partner actually did go to jail for a number
Speaker 2: of years. But like you know, just like the stories
Speaker 2: of so many women, he started the same like it
Speaker 2: started with really small things like her trying to control
Speaker 2: the clothes he wore, telling him how she liked him
Speaker 2: to do his hair. And I said to somebody recently, look,
Speaker 2: it's it's fine for everyone to have their personal tastes.
Speaker 2: And you might have a partner that's like, hey, I
Speaker 2: actually really love when your hair you do your hair
Speaker 2: like this, or your hair looks like this.
Speaker 1: So I have to keep bringing up here. It makes
Speaker 1: me sad, but go.
Speaker 2: Off, or we could get you like some nice wigs,
Speaker 2: you know, I promise you laugh So I'm like, there's
Speaker 2: a difference between someone that's just saying, hey, like I
Speaker 2: really love it when you wear blue because it makes
Speaker 2: your eyes pop or something like that. So I'm giving
Speaker 2: you a compliment now because you've got a blue shirt on.
Speaker 1: Do you take my hair? Why? I sit? At least
Speaker 1: you like my shirt?
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I'm back on track. So I'm like, there's
Speaker 2: a difference between that and then trying to control the
Speaker 2: way that you do everything, control what exactly what you wear,
Speaker 2: who you spend time with. They've got to know there's
Speaker 2: a difference between caring and wanting to know when you're
Speaker 2: part and it gets safely to wherever they're going, and
Speaker 2: constantly sending messages where are you haven't heard from your answer?
Speaker 2: What are you doing? I need you home?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that that can work whether it's a boy
Speaker 1: the girl or girl the boy or whatever, that sort
Speaker 1: of controlling.
Speaker 2: And I share those stories like Alex's of what he
Speaker 2: went through and how it escalated and by the time
Speaker 2: they had children, just like so many women, he felt trapped.
Speaker 2: He didn't want to leave his kids in that situation,
Speaker 2: so he stayed. You know, he ended up being really,
Speaker 2: really badly physically attacked, quite lucky to be alive. But
Speaker 2: when I share that story, you know, there's always those
Speaker 2: those boys that had their arms crossed, and they're a
Speaker 2: bit defensive because they're probably thinking, oh, that never happened
Speaker 2: to me, or what a sissy or something, you know,
Speaker 2: like what a car call whatever they say now, but
Speaker 2: it still resonates that cows control.
Speaker 1: I've seen it where yeah, you see the blake that's
Speaker 1: all of a sudden concerned. I better it calls his
Speaker 1: up where I am and all that so it can
Speaker 1: work back.
Speaker 2: It's seeing that in my own life, like someone close
Speaker 2: to me who had a complete breakdown and was having
Speaker 2: panic attacks by the end of that relationship because of
Speaker 2: how much his female partner controlled him and he was
Speaker 2: just a shell, like he couldn't even speak to her
Speaker 2: face to face when she was going off at him,
Speaker 2: like he'd have to go to another room and text
Speaker 2: because he was like having a panic attack and she'd
Speaker 2: isolated him from all his friends.
Speaker 1: That's a common thing, is the isolation.
Speaker 2: That's a warning like, oh, they're changing you like, and
Speaker 2: I don't like who you are when you're with them.
Speaker 2: And fair enough, if it's an accurate comment, But in
Speaker 2: knowing that particular person, it wasn't.
Speaker 1: So okay, you've got that happening at the school's Project Karma.
Speaker 1: What's not what's happening at the school Project Karma. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So Project Karma is another anti trafficking organization not for
Speaker 2: profit that I have supported for a number of years,
Speaker 2: and it's run by Glenn Hully. He's an ex Victorian
Speaker 2: police officer and private investigator and I came across his
Speaker 2: work maybe around twenty sixteen when he reached out to
Speaker 2: share the work he was doing overseas as well as
Speaker 2: in Australia. But what I like about the model they
Speaker 2: have is that it's centered around empowering the communities they're in.
Speaker 2: So a lot of the criticisms of anti trafficking organizations
Speaker 2: is that they can have a bit of that white
Speaker 2: saber complex and come in and just say, oh, we
Speaker 2: know how to do this, do it this way. But
Speaker 2: the Project Karma Sentinel model is about empowering. Like let's
Speaker 2: just say it was in one of the areas in Indonesia,
Speaker 2: they would be empowering the local police, the local communities,
Speaker 2: and I think maybe government as well. But like all
Speaker 2: of those local communities are empowered to know what the
Speaker 2: warning signs are if a child is being harmed or exploited,
Speaker 2: and how does the community come together to firstly rescue
Speaker 2: and get that child out of that situation, but also
Speaker 2: get justice for that victim with getting justice against the perpetrator.
Speaker 2: And so I've been like a huge supporter of their
Speaker 2: work and they've created like they've just had amazing success
Speaker 2: in different countries overseas. They do like they do work
Speaker 2: here too. And then ethos is really about, you know,
Speaker 2: providing support and getting justice for victims no matter where
Speaker 2: they are or how old they are, and trying to
Speaker 2: get justice against perpetrators. And they've Glenn's done a really
Speaker 2: great job of helping police with certain like say Australian
Speaker 2: perpetrators who've gone over the seas to try to evade
Speaker 2: justice and actually finding.
Speaker 1: Where they are and share that the Glenn Project to Glenn,
Speaker 1: Yeaharma and Global you're also global ambassador human trafficking ambassador work.
Speaker 1: We've investigators. Is that another part of part of what
Speaker 1: you do?
Speaker 2: So in the past, yeah, I did when I was
Speaker 2: in Southeast Asia. I think one of the stories I
Speaker 2: shared earlier was there's a friend of mine who was
Speaker 2: living there for a long time doing undercover stuff. So
Speaker 2: I mean shout out to him and all of the
Speaker 2: amazing people that do this day in and day out,
Speaker 2: because I only spent you know, a fraction of time
Speaker 2: there learning about what was happening, and we wrote a
Speaker 2: few articles together. But they're the people that are there
Speaker 2: day in and day out trying to make a difference.
Speaker 1: I think we think human trafficking and slavery is that
Speaker 1: that's something from a bygone era, But it's very much
Speaker 1: not is it.
Speaker 2: No, it's just.
Speaker 1: Maybe in a different form, but the reality of it
Speaker 1: that's still still the same.
Speaker 2: And we hear about it in you know, with the
Speaker 2: advancements of tech, it's morphing and changing. But you know,
Speaker 2: we see it even in situations like with OnlyFans or
Speaker 2: online sex work. There's you know, sexual exploitation happens there too.
Speaker 2: There's a certain perceptionist and again I'm not saying it's
Speaker 2: the whole industry or everybody's experience, but we don't know
Speaker 2: when we see somebody somebody's public persona, we don't know
Speaker 2: it's really going on behind the scenes, whether there was
Speaker 2: coersion there. Until you know somebody comes out and shares
Speaker 2: later on. But that's just to say that we see
Speaker 2: it happening everywhere. In Brisbane. A couple of years ago
Speaker 2: there was a case that came out of women that
Speaker 2: were rescued from a house in the south side of Brisbane.
Speaker 2: I think it was like around Carringdale area. It was
Speaker 2: quite a well to do neighborhood and the neighbors were horrified.
Speaker 2: They're like, these women have been enslaved here, like we
Speaker 2: didn't know.
Speaker 1: You know. It's just I suppose a message if you,
Speaker 1: if you've got concerns that something's going on, reach out
Speaker 1: to authorities and even if they don't react on that,
Speaker 1: it's documented now and then more people, more people reach out.
Speaker 1: How's life for you now, it's good? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. We just moved to Canber this year, so spending
Speaker 2: a lot of time in nature and yeah, working on
Speaker 2: almost finished a new book. And yeah, we'll see what
Speaker 2: We'll see what adventures come up.
Speaker 1: I'm sure something will come up. And I just wanted
Speaker 1: to finish off with from this book. I've got the
Speaker 1: heading here tools and tips for thriving after trauma. But
Speaker 1: there's simple things. But I think we'll just quickly mention them, gratitude, journaling,
Speaker 1: digital detoxing, discovering true self, setting strong and unapologetic boundaries.
Speaker 1: There are four points you talked about overcoming trauma. Are
Speaker 1: they things that have worked for you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I could always do better at the
Speaker 2: digital detoxing, but yeah, all of those things, I mean,
Speaker 2: and particularly journaling, Like a lot of people have said, oh,
Speaker 2: but I'm not a writer, and I say, it actually
Speaker 2: has got nothing to do with that. You could even
Speaker 2: use the notepad on your phone if you wanted to,
Speaker 2: But it's just about actually actually just brain jumping everything
Speaker 2: that's going on in your head. And there's nights where
Speaker 2: I'll do that just so I can sleep because I've
Speaker 2: got too much swirling around. But there's a lot more
Speaker 2: that I'll be going into a lot more deeply in
Speaker 2: the new book, that Finishing Off, which really centers around
Speaker 2: like just give like a little little tidbit, really centers
Speaker 2: around the thirteen key steps people can take to really,
Speaker 2: you know, live an out loud and apologetic life and
Speaker 2: to heal and speak up and share their story with
Speaker 2: the world in a way that's safe makes an impact,
Speaker 2: but it is also safe because that's a really big
Speaker 2: thing for a lot of advocates is that they have
Speaker 2: that passion to share, but they may not have done
Speaker 2: the deep inner work to be firstly in a position
Speaker 2: to share, and then secondly they might not know how
Speaker 2: to safely share their story. So you know, that can
Speaker 2: lead to situations with you know, I hate to say it,
Speaker 2: but with some journalists or with podcasts where you might
Speaker 2: get asked something that you're not comfortable being asked, or
Speaker 2: it might be framed in a way that's not necessarily respectful.
Speaker 2: And it's really helpful if you know and you have
Speaker 2: a guide, which is why I'm writing this book for
Speaker 2: how to safely share your story, How to put like
Speaker 2: professional but firm boundaries in place before you share your
Speaker 2: story publicly, so that you can do it from a
Speaker 2: place of empowerment, not feeling pressured to share certain things.
Speaker 1: Or I think that's a good thing because we all
Speaker 1: have a platform now that you can get what was
Speaker 1: thirty years ago, it was completely changed. Now everyone can
Speaker 1: get on a big platform and get opinions out and
Speaker 1: share stories. But unless you've done it or gone down
Speaker 1: that path, you have no idea. Like I'm sure you've
Speaker 1: had negative things posted about you and the first time
Speaker 1: I did when I got into the media. I didn't
Speaker 1: care when I was in the police because people were
Speaker 1: meant to attack the place sort of thing. But when
Speaker 1: you're working in the media, and yeah, that's terrible. And
Speaker 1: know some of the criticism was possibly right, but it
Speaker 1: still hurts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I've enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking the time to come
Speaker 1: into day. I hope all the best for the future
Speaker 1: and maybe we get you back to talk about your
Speaker 1: next book when it comes out.
Speaker 2: That sounds great. Thank you, Gary, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Cheers.