WEBVTT - The students behind the historic ICJ climate ruling 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:03.520 So my name is Cynthia who Nuhi. I am from 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:07.960 Solomon Islands. I think I was around eight to ten 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:12.240 when I could see the world more clearly and I 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.000 started noticing sea level rise. 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.160 Cynthia Hanuhi knew about the climate crisis before she had 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:23.040 a word for it. As a kid, she would travel 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:26.119 with her dad to the outlining Fanalay Island to visit 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:30.200 her family. There she saw empty, stilled houses sitting above 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:30.640 the water. 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:33.720 I liked asking questions and my dad was a very 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:36.960 patient man, and he told me about how the people 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.159 have had to move inland because the sea level was 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:42.640 coming in. And the more I asked, the more I 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:44.800 wanted to find out. And the more I found out 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:49.600 this changes are happening not because something that the people's 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:53.040 in the islands that are way far from the outside world, 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:56.600 so remote. It's not because of their owndoing. They contribute 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.200 almost nothing to this. But they are the ones that 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:01.959 you know, get. 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:06.319 To loose their homes these days. Finally is quiet. Around 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.440 eighty percent of houses are abandoned, freshwater wells have been 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:12.880 inundated with salt water, and vegetables no longer grow in 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:17.720 the soil. Watching the slow destruction of her family's ancestral 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.920 home by man made climate change, Cynthia was motivated to act. 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:25.640 Cynthia's six year fight took her all the way to 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.920 the Hague and the International Court of Justice, where a 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:40.600 landmark for ruling was handed down last week. Hi, I'm 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:48.360 Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM today reporter 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.560 Shane Anderson on the Pacific Island students behind the historic 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:56.440 icj ruley and the implications for major polluters, including Australia. 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:07.520 It's Monday, July twenty eighth. Shane. You've been speaking to 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.720 Cynthia about her journey from the Pacific to the International 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:12.440 Court of Justice. Can you tell me about it? 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:17.720 Yeah, So, Cynthia, from those early experiences of seeing her relatives' 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.240 houses literally falling into the sea, she described it as 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:24.240 something that really motivated her to do something that could 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:27.359 help her people in a practical way, and that led 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.320 her to enroll in a law degree at the University 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.320 of the South Pacific. So she ended up moving from 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.720 the Solomon Islands to Port Vila, the capital of Vanawatu, 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:39.560 where the campus was. From there she ended up in 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:41.200 a course on environmental law. 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:45.840 We went in bright eyed, you know, ready to be inspired. 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:49.640 But the more we learn, the more frustrating it became 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:53.760 that the mechanism the climate change regime that's in place 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.920 is not reflective of the urgency of the matter for 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:01.200 our people, especially all of us came from online communities, 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:06.359 and so you have difference from Tonga, Fiji, some more Kiribas, 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.960 all the others coming together to walk together towards a solution. 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.880 So what was really concerning to them was they were 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:18.200 seeing firsthand how the law was failing to recognize climate 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:21.480 harms that are having impacts on smaller nations who have 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:24.639 very little political power on the world stage to do 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:27.200 anything about it. It's in the context of this that 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:31.280 they started to learn about this thing called an advisory opinion. 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:33.360 Can you explain what an advisory opinion is? 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.480 Yes, So, an advisory opinion is delivered by the International 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.280 Court of Justice in the Hague, which is connected to 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.880 the UN, and one of its functions is dispensing these 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.560 advisory opinions that aim to clarify some of the most 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:52.680 complicated and controversial legal questions regarding international law. And the 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:57.120 findings are non binding, which means they're not changing laws 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.440 on their own, but these opinions carry a lot of 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.920 legal weight, and it's for this reason that the ICJ 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.080 doesn't just give opinions on anything, and they usually tend 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.120 to deal with things like border disputes. So, for example, 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:13.960 there's an opinion being deliberated on at the moment around 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:18.279 the occupied Palestinian territories. But you know, when Cynthia and 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:22.200 her classmates were learning about the ICJ and the advisory opinion, 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.120 she told me that one of the reasons why it 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.799 was so appealing to her was because it sounded so familiar. 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.120 In the Pacific, we've always had this worldview where when 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:35.720 there's uncertainty in terms of customs or culture, we go 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:38.680 to our chiefs and what they say in clarity how 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.800 many to our people. That's the same worldview we'd like 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.520 to present here in terms of the icc because we're 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:50.240 missing that secret authority that can clarify and set the basis. 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:55.239 Now, the ICJ is actually never given an advisory opinion 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:59.560 on climate change before, but in twenty twelve, the you know, 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:03.200 tiny Pacific nation of Palout initially had this idea of 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:07.080 going to the ICJ to seek an advisory opinion about 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:11.000 what the responsibilities are from the biggest polluters towards the 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:15.359 least polluters. That campaign failed, but the students thought, you know, 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:17.960 in the time that had passed since his campaign had failed, 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.400 the global awareness of climate change and the damage being 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:25.400 brought on the Pacific has grown so much that maybe 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.680 it was the right time for a renewed push with 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.719 slightly tweaked wording. And their next question was, well, this 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.080 is a good idea. How do we actually get this 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:36.880 before the UN General Assembly? 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:39.240 Okay, so tell me about it. How did they go 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:39.760 about that? 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.279 So, to start with, they formed an advocacy group called 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.960 the Pacific Island Students Fighting Climate Change, of which Cynthia 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:51.640 became the president, and they began this massive letter writing campaign. 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:54.160 They wrote to the heads of state of a bunch 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:57.440 of different countries. They even sent a letter to former 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:01.839 Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison and probably not a surprise 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:04.520 to know they didn't get the response that they wanted. 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:09.799 Initially, we waited and we waited and waited and waited 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:14.719 and waited, and to a point where we thought, okay, 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:16.880 let us must have just gone to the out box. 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:19.920 Those were really hard days because there was a lot 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:24.119 of criticism and you know, people telling us off that 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:28.120 this is impossible, it's not going to go. But then 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:32.359 one country came back with very compelling positive response, and 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.120 that is the Republic of Vanuatu. 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.800 So the first person to take their initiative seriously was 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.720 the then Foreign Minister of Vaniwatu, Ralph Frankenfarnu. He was 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:46.039 a former law student from that campus himself, and he 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.840 recalled being really impressed by their initiative. And from there 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:53.320 the idea was taken on by the Republic of Vaniwatu's government. 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.640 Right, so they've got the support of one country, but 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:57.839 you need more than that to get an issue in 0:06:57.839 --> 0:06:59.440 front of the General Assembly. 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.200 Right yes, So in order to get something referred to 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.320 the International Court of Justice, you need a majority vote, 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.080 So you need ninety three countries minimum to support a 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.720 question to be referred to the ICJ. So the first 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:16.320 step of the Vadawatu government was to take it to 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:20.040 the Pacific Islands Forum. This happens every year. Australia and 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.520 New Zealand are part of the negotiations there. Even that 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:27.840 alone took nearly three or four years to be fully 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.440 endorsed by the Pacific Islands Forum and then from there 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:36.760 the momentum built globally. So the Pacific Island Students, including Cynthia, 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:41.840 they engaged something like fifteen hundred different advocacy groups across 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.680 one hundred and thirty countries. So this is a group 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:49.600 of volunteer law students who then went on and spent 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.760 all years traveling around the world trying to drum up 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.160 support for the initiative in front of the UN and 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.720 it absolutely worked. They got the vote they needed at 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:03.200 the General Assembly and then it went before the ICJ. 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.560 Once it was there, a record number of countries lined 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:11.840 up to have their say. After the break, the judges 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.560 make their ruling about what we owe our smaller neighbors 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:22.920 feeling the impact of climate change. Okay, so what did 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:26.280 the International Court of Justice find and what did they rule? 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:31.560 So the question put to the ICJ was, you know, 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.960 asking them to clarify what are the obligations between bigger 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:40.000 polluting states towards smaller states in regards to protecting them 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:41.160 from climate change. 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:48.280 Climate change pauses are quintessentially universal risk to austics. 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.760 And the Interctual Court of Justice spelled out for the 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:56.480 first time that the failure of larger polluting states to 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:00.760 protect smaller states from climate harms could be backed up 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:02.319 by legal consequences. 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.200 The Court found that countries fail to take measures to 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.920 prevent climate change, they could be in violation of international 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:10.480 law and the countries. 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:14.839 It goes on to explain that failures could be including 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:20.160 things such as still producing fossil fuels, still consuming fossil fuels, 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:24.400 still granting exploration licenses, or offering subsidies for the fossil 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:25.319 fuel industry. 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:27.760 One of the things this does is clear the way 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:31.319 for countries to actually sue each other over their emissions 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.840 and contributions to climate change, even for historic emissions. 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:39.080 What this does is it gives these smaller nations power 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:43.160 that they didn't have before. It gives them leverage in negotiations, 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:45.960 and it forces bigger nations to come to the table 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.960 and agree to more ambitious climate policy because now there's 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.600 the threat of consequences if they fail to do so. 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.400 And given all that, how could this impact Australia. 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:00.520 It could have massive impacts on Australia in a number 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:01.280 of different ways. 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:06.120 Definitely. One of the options is litigation against Australia. Possibly 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:07.760 according to what Ralph. 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.679 Frank Andvarannu, who's now the Minister for Climate Change Adaptation 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.640 in the Republic of Anawatu. He actually went on the 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.559 ABC the morning the ruling was delivered and spelled out 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:21.040 really plainly that future litigation against Australia is now one 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:22.720 of the options on the table. 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:24.600 To the Advisory pin and handed out today. 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:29.640 Australia is committing internationally wrong for acts because it is sponsoring, 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:34.240 it is subsidizing fossil fuel production and excessive emissions. 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:36.080 I mean Australia is one of these. 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.760 So not only does that leave Australia open to future litigation, 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:43.760 but it could influence cases that are already happening here 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:44.560 at the moment too. 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.240 So tell me a little bit more about that. Because 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:51.760 this decision comes just after another high profile climate decision 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.520 where traditional owners from the Torres Strait went to the 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:57.719 Federal Court of Australia and argued that the government had 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.920 a duty of care to protect their homelands from climate change. 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.920 The judge found the government didn't have an obligation, but 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.840 acknowledged the impact of climate change. So what impact could 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.559 this ruling have on that case and others like it? 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:13.760 I mean, if we look back on that case, the 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:17.360 judge found that the government didn't have an obligation, not 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:20.280 because there wasn't a moral reason to protect the Torres 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:23.720 Strait Islanders, but because the current legal framework didn't allow 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.240 for it, and that's changed now. That's what doctor Wesley 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.200 Morgan told me this week. He's a research associate at 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:33.720 the Institute for Climate Risk and Response at UNSW Doctor 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.840 Morgan believes that this advisory opinion could change the outcome 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:39.960 of that case if there were to be an appeal. 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:42.360 So, Shane, this is a huge victory for the group 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.920 of law students who first came up with this idea 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.360 way back in twenty nineteen. How do they feel about 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:48.920 the outcome. 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.400 I speak to Cynthia just after the advisory opinion was delivered, 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.160 and she told me she was happily exhausted. 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.439 It's going to be emotional, I think emotional fust because 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:01.360 it's been six long years. 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:04.280 So even though this is a massive victory, I mean, 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:07.080 they've been doing this in a volunteer capacity now for 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.600 six years, and as excited as they are, I think 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.240 they're also really looking forward to having some rest. 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:18.040 I think it's cost us our youth. We've seen things 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.599 the young people in our shoes, but not normally do. 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:25.199 So we've grown with this campaign and so be emotional 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:26.560 all that reason. 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.520 One of the things Cynthia really stressed to me when 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:35.240 I was speaking to her is that this advisory opinion, 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:39.640 it doesn't solve the climate crisis, obviously, but their best 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.199 hope was that it would give the next batch of campaigners, 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.000 you know, a blueprint for going forward, and that's exactly 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:47.679 what they've done. 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.640 I think my motivision has always been my islands, my people. 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.360 I love my people in my islands. I don't think 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:59.640 I've been born as Solomon Islander for a mistake. I 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:03.240 was to be a Solomon Island because those are the 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.800 people that really really need our help. 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:10.680 Shane, thank you so much for your time. 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:11.440 Thanks. 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:18.160 Daniel, A spokesperson for Australia's Minister for Climate Change and Energy, 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:29.760 said the government is carefully considering the court's options. Also 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.160 in the news, more than one hundred international aid organizations 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.160 and human rights groups have warned of mass starvation in 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.120 the Gaza Strip as the Israeli militaries is it's starting 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.080 to air drop aid there. The move by the IDEA 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:46.400 follows international condemnation by EID experts saying air dropping food 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:50.599 is inefficient, a distraction, and could even kill starving civilians 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.560 if they go awry. The United Nations has warned that 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.440 one in three gardens are going days without food. At 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.280 least eighty five children have died from starvation so far. 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:04.280 Allding to Gaza's health ministry and Australia will not recognize 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.199 a Palestinian state at this point, according to Prime Minister 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.440 Anthony Albanesi. Last week, French President Emmanuel Macron announced he 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:15.040 will recognize a Palestinian state at the UN in September, 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.600 but Anthony Alberesi said he was only open to doing 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:21.000 so once there were appropriate guarantees about the viability of 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.040 the state, pointing to a need to exclude Hamas and 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.600 ensure a Palestinian state does not threaten the existence of Israel. 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:38.359 I'm Daniel James. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.