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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fearing Greed Q and a whill we ask

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Speaker 1: and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure a ailman. Australian employers are making progress on

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Speaker 1: the gender pay gap, but there's still a long way

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Speaker 1: to go. The Workplace Gender Equality Agency has today released

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Speaker 1: gender pay gap data for ten and a half thousand

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Speaker 1: Australian employers, covering nearly six million workers, and for the

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Speaker 1: first time, it includes Commonwealth public sector results alongside private

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Speaker 1: sector employers. Half of all employers now have a total

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Speaker 1: immuneration gap, a pay gap below eleven point two percent

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Speaker 1: and more within the target range of pus or minus

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Speaker 1: five percent. But that means half still have a pay

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Speaker 1: gap large than eleven point two percent in favor of men,

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Speaker 1: and men remain almost twice as likely as women to

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Speaker 1: occupy the highest paid roles. Mary Wooldridge is the CEO

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Speaker 1: of the Workplace Gender Equality Agency. Mary, welcome back to

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Speaker 1: Fearing Greed.

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Speaker 2: Fantastic three with you again, Sean.

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Speaker 1: What's the main message from the data out today? What

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Speaker 1: do you want people to take home from it?

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Speaker 2: So the main thing is is that we're making progress.

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Speaker 2: It's slow, it's deliberate. There's still a long way to go,

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Speaker 2: as you have said, but we are heading in the

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Speaker 2: right direction. More employers have a lower gender pay gap,

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Speaker 2: more in the target range, which is close to zero percent.

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Speaker 2: There are more women in higher paying roles and slightly

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Speaker 2: fewer in lower role So the balance is getting a

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Speaker 2: bit better. But it's going to require vigilance and ongoing

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Speaker 2: work over an extended period of time. But we've got

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Speaker 2: some momentum. We're heading in the right direction.

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Speaker 1: Why is that? Why do we have this momentum and

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Speaker 1: how do we keep it going?

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Speaker 2: So three or four years ago when we last chatted,

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Speaker 2: things that actually stalled, and there's been a series of

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Speaker 2: reforms that have occurred that are helping to re engage.

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Speaker 2: I'll highlight the need for action on fairness and equality

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Speaker 2: in the workplace. Publishing gender pay gaps, which we're doing today,

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Speaker 2: has been an important part of this that. So this

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Speaker 2: is the third time we've published employer gender pay gaps,

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Speaker 2: and we're getting more information and more employers each and

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Speaker 2: every time. But there are other things that are happening

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Speaker 2: as well. Now we're GEAR reports, so every medium and

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Speaker 2: large company reports to a GEAR every year. Their reports

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Speaker 2: not only are published, but also are required directly to

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Speaker 2: go to their board and have a conversation and engage

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Speaker 2: on that. So we're getting great feedback that that's been

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Speaker 2: an important part of enhancing understanding and creating that authorizing

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Speaker 2: environment for action. And we've got a new requirement that's

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Speaker 2: happening over the next couple of months that large companies

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Speaker 2: actually have to set targets and deliver outcomes and improvements

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Speaker 2: in terms of gender equality. So a suite of reforms

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Speaker 2: related to my agency, but there's broader momentum as well.

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Speaker 1: How much of this is about the fact that historically

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Speaker 1: men have had these roles and have tended to be

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Speaker 1: in more senior positions. Again, lower paid work is dominated

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Speaker 1: by women. It's like a societal problem. How much of

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Speaker 1: it is that and do you think we can actually

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Speaker 1: get there at some point getting equality of pay?

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Speaker 2: It is about our stereotypes and norms that we've had

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Speaker 2: over time, And in fact, Australia is one of the

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Speaker 2: most segregated, gender segregated industrial structures in the OECD. We

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Speaker 2: have about half of workers work in an industry that's

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Speaker 2: either dominated by men or women, and historically those male

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Speaker 2: dominated industries like construction and mining have been higher paying,

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Speaker 2: and the industries dominated by women, such as health care

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Speaker 2: and social assistance, have been lower paying. So we are

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Speaker 2: pushing against culture and stereotypes, but it's possible to address them.

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Speaker 1: Certainly.

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Speaker 2: What we work towards is that we have gender pay

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Speaker 2: gaps at individual employers and overall as a nation close

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Speaker 2: to zero. And you know, it's a lot of years

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Speaker 2: to get there, but we are accelerating change and you've

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Speaker 2: got to have a crack and because what it represents,

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Speaker 2: and the gender pay gaps only one number. It's the

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Speaker 2: average of what men and women are paid and looking

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Speaker 2: at the difference, but it represents fairness and equality in

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Speaker 2: the workplace, and that's what we are really working towards.

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Speaker 2: That you know, regardless of young men and women entering

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Speaker 2: the workforce can feel that they will have an equal

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Speaker 2: opportunity to use their skills and capabilities to be fairly remunerated,

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Speaker 2: to seek out the higher roles if they should want them,

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Speaker 2: and if they have parenting responsibilities, that they can work

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Speaker 2: in a way that enables them to do both.

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Speaker 1: So how are we going on the parenting responsibilities side

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Speaker 1: of it? And again, this is a societal issue. But

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Speaker 1: it would be great to have everyone as a twenty

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Speaker 1: five year old entering the workforce thinking we have as

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Speaker 1: much chance as the person next to me, male or

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Speaker 1: female to go it to a point, but men are

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Speaker 1: still one point eight times more likely to be in

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Speaker 1: the top earnings quartile. The senior roles still are male dominated.

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Speaker 1: How much is that about family? Does the government need

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Speaker 1: to do? I mean, this government has certainly done a

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Speaker 1: lot around childcare, which is fantastic and we welcome that,

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Speaker 1: but does more need to be done?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it is about shifting the norms about who

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Speaker 2: works and who cares and it is changing. And we

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Speaker 2: obviously have a universal paid parental leave scheme, but two

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Speaker 2: thirds of employers actually offer their own parental leaf scheme.

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Speaker 2: Many of them offer it equally to men and women,

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Speaker 2: which is really important. And actually you also have to

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Speaker 2: translate that into culture, not only that the policy is available,

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Speaker 2: but that men and women are equally taking up the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to take primary care as leave and to fulfill

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Speaker 2: those responsibilities. We're seeing growth in the proportion of primary

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Speaker 2: care is leave taken by men, but it's still only

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Speaker 2: about twenty percent of all the primary care leave is

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Speaker 2: is by men. So that's an area where once again

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Speaker 2: we've got to change the stereotypes and norms. We have

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Speaker 2: to support men and women equally to take it, and

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Speaker 2: that will translate through to men and women equally being

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Speaker 2: able to return to the workforce after parenting responsibilities to

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Speaker 2: if they can work flexibly to balance those parenting responsibilities

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Speaker 2: with work and contribute their full range of skills and capabilities.

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Speaker 1: What role the discretionary payments, bonuses over time, that type

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Speaker 1: of thing play in the gender gap and do companies

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Speaker 1: understand how those decisions impact the pay gap.

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Speaker 2: So discretionary payments actually add quite a lot to the

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Speaker 2: gender pay gap, and they're very substantial. So while you

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Speaker 2: said half of all companies have a gender payback gap

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Speaker 2: more than eleven point two percent, it's much closer to

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Speaker 2: thirty percent. Of is the number where the pay gap

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Speaker 2: between discretionary payments is, and fifty percent of companies have

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Speaker 2: more than a thirty percent gap in that regard.

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Speaker 1: So it is.

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Speaker 2: Important for companies when they're doing their gender pay gap

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Speaker 2: analysis to look at access to overtime, access to bonuses

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Speaker 2: and allowances and how those decisions are being made. Are

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Speaker 2: they fair are they done in a transparent way or

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Speaker 2: are they subjective, because once again what we're seeing is

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Speaker 2: consistently men are more likely to be able to access

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Speaker 2: those discretionary payments than women and therefore have access to

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Speaker 2: the higher remuneration.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the comment of the public sector is included this

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Speaker 1: year onside private sector employers. How does it perform? You'd

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Speaker 1: expect it will perform better, but I'm interested whether that's

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Speaker 1: the case it does.

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Speaker 2: Overall, and there are still some high gender pay gaps

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Speaker 2: with public sector employers and low ones as well, as

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Speaker 2: there is a range, But overall, the public sector performs

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Speaker 2: better and the gender pay gaps are lower, and that's

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Speaker 2: because of a history of seeking to have equal opportunity

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Speaker 2: for men and women throughout the organization and at those

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Speaker 2: higher paying roles, and a better translation and achievement of

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Speaker 2: those sort of outcomes, a lot of transparency about pay

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Speaker 2: rates and structures and processes and accountability in terms of

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Speaker 2: being promoted to the most senior levels. The other thing

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Speaker 2: that the public sector does very well is often and

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Speaker 2: the nature of the work, often have access to flexible

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Speaker 2: working arrangements, so we actually see a lot more women

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Speaker 2: are working full time but flexibly rather than having to

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Speaker 2: work part time in order to balance and juggle other responsibilities.

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Speaker 2: So very positive there. But interestingly, back to parental leave,

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Speaker 2: the uptake of primary care is leave by men in

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Speaker 2: the public sector is actually lower than the private sector.

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Speaker 2: So everyone's got things to work on, and there's always

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Speaker 2: ways to improve and narrow that gap.

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Speaker 1: Mary, you have been in this job for a little while.

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Speaker 1: Your work be done. Maybe it'll never be done, to

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Speaker 1: be perfectly honest, but what would success look like to you?

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Speaker 1: When would you think, Ah, we're getting there at least.

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Speaker 2: So we are accelerating change and there's still a long

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Speaker 2: way to go in terms of that. But it's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Even equal pay for equal work, which has been the

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Speaker 2: law for over fifty years in Australia, companies still have

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Speaker 2: to check every year that things don't get out of whack.

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Speaker 2: You know. It does require ongoing vigilance. So I think

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Speaker 2: we will always want to make sure that people in

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Speaker 2: the workforce are having an equal and fair experience in it.

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Speaker 2: But the more we narrow the gap, the more we

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Speaker 2: can celebrate those successes and acknowledge them. But I think

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Speaker 2: this is you know, this is about people. We have

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Speaker 2: to make sure that we continue to provide those opportunities

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Speaker 2: for both men and women equally.

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Speaker 1: Mary, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 2: Fantastic Thanks Shaana. Can I just encourage everyone to have

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Speaker 2: a look at the Data Explorer, have a look at

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Speaker 2: your employer, see what the gender pay gap and your

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Speaker 2: other policies and practices are. It's a great conversation to

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Speaker 2: have in the workplace today and every day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Taytor, what's the website for the people to go to.

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Speaker 2: It's WOODJIRWGEA, dot gov, dot AU and you go to

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Speaker 2: the Data Explorer and all ten five hundred companies have

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Speaker 2: not only the gender pay gap and the composition and

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Speaker 2: remuneration by paid courtile, but a whole range of other

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Speaker 2: policies and strategies that are in place. It's a wealth

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Speaker 2: of information.

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Speaker 1: We encourage everyone to go there. That was Mary Wooldridge,

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Speaker 1: CEO of the Workplace Gender Equality Agency. I'm sure this

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Speaker 1: is Fear and Greed Q and A