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Speaker 1: Daniel Murray. Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Paul, great to be here with you.

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Speaker 1: Exciting Damie at your book has when did it release?

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Speaker 1: Very recently?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple of days ago. Came out in bookshops,

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Speaker 2: so it was a bit of a surreal moment of

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Speaker 2: walking in. I was actually in Sydney, went into the

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Speaker 2: Dimicks there on Pitt Street and yeah, I got to

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Speaker 2: go in and see it on the shelf and next

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Speaker 2: to all those other wonderful books and authors. It's pretty

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Speaker 2: exciting to hos.

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Speaker 3: That's the cool bit, isn't it When you actually see

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Speaker 3: it in a bookstore and then you go, shit, this

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Speaker 3: is real.

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Speaker 2: It's it's felt real for a while, but you're right

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Speaker 2: when you see it. You know, I was there underneath

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Speaker 2: diary of CEO Steven Bartler's book and some other familiar

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Speaker 2: faces around it. It's exciting, very exciting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well you're in good company underneath there, all right,

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Speaker 3: So tell me there's it's just because I've just finished

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Speaker 3: my second book. How long did the did it take

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Speaker 3: you from the conception to actually getting the final edits.

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Speaker 1: Off and off to print? How long do you recket?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Look, it was a bit of a weird one

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Speaker 2: because I've been writing bits of this book for a

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Speaker 2: couple of years. Some of the frameworks and tools that

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Speaker 2: I've developed and put in the book have been around

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Speaker 2: for a bit longer. It was probably a good twelve

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Speaker 2: months or so from okay, I'm going to make this

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Speaker 2: a proper book, and really going through and refining and

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Speaker 2: pulling pieces together to then the part where a friend

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Speaker 2: of mine said, I don't self publish, don't talk to

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Speaker 2: my friends at Wiley, and that sort of started that process,

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Speaker 2: putting a proposal together, getting them across the line, and

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Speaker 2: then the editing and the proof as you probably know,

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Speaker 2: the proofing, the editing, the blood bath that comes back

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Speaker 2: when you realize you can't fell or punch away, as

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Speaker 2: well as this good. Yeah, it was a bit of

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Speaker 2: a journey, a bit of a journey, and good to be

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Speaker 2: at the end of it. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Now, your book is all about empathy, So just top level,

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Speaker 3: give us a kind of a definition of empathy.

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Speaker 1: And what is that?

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Speaker 3: What are the overlaps and the differences between empathy, sympathy,

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Speaker 3: and kindness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot in there so that there are

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Speaker 2: lots of clinical or academic definitions with the book, I

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Speaker 2: really want to make it accessible for people to practice

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Speaker 2: and to put it into the world to do empathy,

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Speaker 2: not just to think about it. So I discuss empathy

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Speaker 2: as understanding why people do what they do, just as

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Speaker 2: simple as that. So what drives people, And sometimes that's emotions.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes that's very deeply an emotion drive. Sometimes it's much

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Speaker 2: more strategic or logical or rational. There's a whole bunch

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Speaker 2: of things that drivers. We're prett complex human beings, so

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Speaker 2: it's really trying to understand what's going on in another

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Speaker 2: person and what's driving them. I think some of the misconceptions,

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Speaker 2: the first one I talk about, which might be surprising

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Speaker 2: to people, is I don't think empathy is walking in

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Speaker 2: someone else's shoes. And the reason why I don't think

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Speaker 2: that's the case is if I was really struggling with something,

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Speaker 2: really having a hard time in a situation, you might

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Speaker 2: find that situation isn't very difficult at all. You might

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Speaker 2: walk on my shoes and go, actually, not a big deal.

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Speaker 2: Your experience in my shoes is not important to me.

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Speaker 2: My experience is important to me. And so if I

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Speaker 2: really want to understand someone, I've got to think it's

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Speaker 2: not about me. It's not about me as a good

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Speaker 2: proxy or any of those sorts of things. It's about

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Speaker 2: understanding somebody else and what's going on in their world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's more, but less walking in their shoes and

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Speaker 3: more in being in their personalized hallucination of reality is

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Speaker 3: what I talk about. Your experience is a personalized hallucination

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Speaker 3: of reality because all of your life experiences, your genetics,

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Speaker 3: go into the mix, and it's all very personalized, isn't

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Speaker 3: it so?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely? And you know the I was chatting to

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Speaker 2: someone the other day about this. They're saying, oh, look,

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Speaker 2: we're having this conflict in our workplace, et cetera. And

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Speaker 2: this happens in all walks of life. This is the truth,

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Speaker 2: and this is what that person thinks of happening. And

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Speaker 2: I always say, well, they don't worry about the truth.

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Speaker 2: Just think about these plausible narratives. So your plausible narrative

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Speaker 2: is it sound good, wonderful? You like it? Well done? You?

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Speaker 2: Their plausible narrative is something different to yours. Deciding who's

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Speaker 2: right and wrong is a waste of time deciding. How

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Speaker 2: do we start to understand each other's narrative so we

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Speaker 2: can bring these storylines together a much much better way

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Speaker 2: of thinking about it. Because at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: to answer your other question, what empathy, sympathy, kindness, My

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Speaker 2: objective is to make empathy something that helps us bring

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Speaker 2: these narratives to be able to not be the same,

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Speaker 2: but to blend them together so that we can work together,

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Speaker 2: we can interact with each other, we can we can

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Speaker 2: get along and create a better, more collegiate or harmonious

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Speaker 2: sort of society where we're not we're not picking these

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Speaker 2: us and then battles all the time. And this is

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Speaker 2: where I think empathy can be that tool sympathy. The

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Speaker 2: way I understand sympathy is my feelings about your situation.

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Speaker 2: So it's very much self centered how I feel about

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Speaker 2: what's going on for you, and where that relates to

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Speaker 2: things like compassion kindness. If I feel bad for you

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Speaker 2: and I take action that I think will help you,

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Speaker 2: or I take action to relieve my feelings and feeling

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Speaker 2: bad about it. You know, like there's a poor person

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Speaker 2: who doesn't have, you know, who looks homeless on the

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Speaker 2: side of the road. If I throw them two dollars,

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Speaker 2: I feel less guilty good on me. That is not

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Speaker 2: helping that person necessarily at all, and it's really not

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Speaker 2: about the other person's about me. Yeah, so that's where

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Speaker 2: sort of sympathy can drive. I think myth myth aligned

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Speaker 2: compassion or kindness at times, whereas or it's a bit

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Speaker 2: more like nicenesses and I'm trying to be nice to

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Speaker 2: the person, whereas I would say being kind is hey,

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Speaker 2: what's going on in their world? What's really happening for them?

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Speaker 2: What do they need? And how can I help them

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Speaker 2: with that? And that takes more than just sympathizing. It

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Speaker 2: takes empathizing, and it's a much more challenging thing to

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Speaker 2: do and not something I think we can or should

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Speaker 2: do with everyone all the time. But when we really

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Speaker 2: see something, we want to step in too and understand.

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Speaker 2: Empathy is that tool for us to build that deep

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Speaker 2: understanding so we can take better decisions.

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Speaker 3: And I want I want to come back to all

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Speaker 3: the time, because as you describe it, that takes time

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Speaker 3: and effort, right and to actually do that.

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Speaker 1: So I want to circle back to that in a minute.

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Speaker 3: But this idea of a plausible narrative, I actually really

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Speaker 3: like that, and because it links to what I said

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Speaker 3: about people's view of reality, being a personalized hallucination. And

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Speaker 3: anybody who says that this is absolutely the truth is

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Speaker 3: full of mad dog shit in my you know, any

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Speaker 3: scientists will tell you we you know, we we there's.

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Speaker 1: Very few things in science that are absolute truths.

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Speaker 3: It's just about certainty that that that they're not due

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Speaker 3: to chance and these sorts of things. Right, So when

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Speaker 3: did you come up with this idea of describing it

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Speaker 3: as a plausible narrative? And when you came up with that,

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Speaker 3: did you just kind of sit back and go, I've

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Speaker 3: kneeled it.

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Speaker 2: I didn't sit back and think I've nailed it, because

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Speaker 2: that just might be my own delusion. Right, But it's

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Speaker 2: about it's about sitting with people. And this happened a

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Speaker 2: lot working with in big organizations where someone would say,

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Speaker 2: this person, and I'm sure you've seen this in your

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Speaker 2: personal this person is doing this because and then they

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Speaker 2: run off this huge sentence or a storyline, and I

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Speaker 2: could sit back and go, but what if it's not

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Speaker 2: because of that m and what happens for us? You know,

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Speaker 2: to go back to your point, what are brains like?

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Speaker 2: It's certainty. They don't like uncertainty, And so the narrative

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Speaker 2: the reality that we make up is our brain saying

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Speaker 2: you've got this, you understand everything. Everything's going to be okay,

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Speaker 2: and I'll put it. It's in this box everything everything's

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Speaker 2: going to sweep that. It can be quite soothing in

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Speaker 2: the moment, but really destructive in the long run. And

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Speaker 2: so what I kept finding, even working in big organizations

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Speaker 2: at times was we'd have the most beautiful plans, the

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Speaker 2: best PowerPoint deck and all that sort of stuff. You

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Speaker 2: see it in communities where people go, oh, this is

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Speaker 2: how it's going to work. It all makes perfect sense.

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Speaker 2: But then when you add humans to the mix who've

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Speaker 2: got all of their weird, wonderful craziness, then things can

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Speaker 2: go astray really fast. And I was chatting with a

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Speaker 2: friend about it the other day. Share bicycles, shared students,

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Speaker 2: you know, if you've got them in Melbourne and Sydney,

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Speaker 2: where you can go and jump on those little e

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Speaker 2: bites and stuff, and they make perfect sense, great sensible,

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Speaker 2: logical way of moving around a city. Think about the

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Speaker 2: effort it takes to pick one up and throw it

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Speaker 2: in the river. That's what effort. Yet people do that.

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Speaker 2: You go, well, now one would go to that effort

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Speaker 2: that seems like a lot of wasted energy to go

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Speaker 2: and throw that thing in the river. However, people seem

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Speaker 2: to do it all the time. And so if you

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Speaker 2: don't understand some of these strange and weird narratives that

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Speaker 2: people are building in their heads that justified the behavior,

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Speaker 2: you're never going to be able to stop those things

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Speaker 2: from happening or even feel better ways to work with

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Speaker 2: people going forward. So that sort of as a mathematician

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Speaker 2: at heart, which is a strange thing to admit to, sometimes,

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Speaker 2: I'd love it if the world was like maths.

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Speaker 1: Predictable, certain certainty. And yes, yes, it's just not.

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Speaker 2: And so the narrative idea gives us a bit of flexibility,

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Speaker 2: gives us some room to move, gives us a bit

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Speaker 2: of a way of getting away from that brain's desire

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Speaker 2: to put things in black and white.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think, look, everybody's been guilty of all

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Speaker 3: the lessers have been guilty of going why can't this

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Speaker 3: deckhead see things the way they are?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: Of course, we've all been enough because.

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Speaker 3: That is our plausible narrative, which the us seems not

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Speaker 3: plausible but certain and the truth. And so I really

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Speaker 3: do like this idea of saying applausible narrative because what

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Speaker 3: it does is as well as Mick you think about

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Speaker 3: how they might be seeing the situation, is that it's

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Speaker 3: always a little bit of seed of dit into your

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Speaker 3: own interpretation of this that you have at absolutely one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent yield.

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Speaker 2: And well, of course I'll give you a really simple

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Speaker 2: example of this. Road rage goes down when people go

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Speaker 2: on holidays. So when people are at home, we're busy,

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Speaker 2: we're trying to get to drop the kids off at school,

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Speaker 2: pick up something, and go to an appointment, whatever the

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Speaker 2: case might be. Road rage where the first person I'm

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Speaker 2: beating the horn? Are you alpohol, get out of the road.

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Speaker 2: Right When we go on holidays, we're driving along the

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Speaker 2: a moalthy coast. We're looking out, how beautiful is this?

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Speaker 2: We're the ones puttering along and someone's behind us beeping.

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Speaker 2: Settle down? What's wrong with you? Relas it look how

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Speaker 2: beautiful it is? So we sort of forget that we're

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Speaker 2: very subjective in the way we see the world, and

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Speaker 2: we change at different times in different moments with whole

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Speaker 2: different stimulus going on. So I like this idea of

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Speaker 2: narrative because it just says Okay, our brain's just creating

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Speaker 2: this storyline. But I have some power to adapt the storyline.

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Speaker 2: And there isn't an absolute truth. It's just lots of

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Speaker 2: different ways that it could happen, and then I've got flexibility.

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Speaker 2: I think it's far more empowering to think, well, I

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Speaker 2: can shift between these different narratives than to say no, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is the truth and everyone else is wrong and therefore,

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Speaker 2: you know, let's burn them at the stake or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Ludicrous In my.

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Speaker 3: I see that concept of world beautical stamen people who

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Speaker 3: was on holiday. It just reminded me as you were

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Speaker 3: talking about that about the Good Samaritan study.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've heard of this one, and I'll.

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Speaker 3: Probably probably get some details slightly wrong, so you can

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Speaker 3: put me up, and if you don't, listeners will put

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Speaker 3: me up. But basically my memory of this is there

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Speaker 3: are a bunch of people who were brought in It

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Speaker 3: was in a university study, and they were read a paragraph.

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Speaker 3: Some of them were primed with the parable of the

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Speaker 3: Good Samaritan, and then others were just read a control

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Speaker 3: thing and then they were told they had to get

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Speaker 3: across to do a talk on the other side. Of

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Speaker 3: the quad or something in the university, and there was

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Speaker 3: an old person who dropped a heap of books, and

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Speaker 3: they were looking to see who would stop and who

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Speaker 3: didn't stop, right, But they actually manipulated the condition where

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Speaker 3: some of the people had plenty of time and some

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Speaker 3: of them were.

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Speaker 1: Quite tight for time.

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Speaker 3: And it wasn't actually whether or not they read the

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Speaker 3: Good Samaritan that drove whether or not they stopped to help.

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Speaker 1: It was when they had time. So even when people

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Speaker 1: had read the.

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Speaker 3: Good Samaritan, but they thought there wasn't a lot of

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Speaker 3: flex in theirs, they just walked right past right as

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Speaker 3: sort of kind of goes to your point about how

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Speaker 3: are our own personal situation and actually changes how we

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Speaker 3: interact with reality one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: And I think they were actually theological students.

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Speaker 1: They have to get right, actually, yeah.

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Speaker 2: So they should have of stop should have also, well,

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Speaker 2: we all should stop potentially. But your points are really

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Speaker 2: good one, which is your brain prioritizers looking after you.

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Speaker 2: As much as we'd like to think it doesn't, it's not.

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Speaker 2: It's designed to look after you. It's perfectly designed and

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Speaker 2: has been created this way over you know, lots of

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Speaker 2: time of evolution to work in social groups. Yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: to care about others because of that social nature. Yet,

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Speaker 2: but its underlying function is to keep you safe. And

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Speaker 2: if that means I'm really busy and there's there's objects

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Speaker 2: in my way, there's problems my way, how do I

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Speaker 2: get past them as fast as possible to meet what

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to do. That's exactly what we should expect

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Speaker 2: it to do. And so this is where empathy takes work.

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Speaker 2: It takes effort. I have to actually put in some

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Speaker 2: some stoppages and blockages from the natural path I would

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Speaker 2: take of look after number one to think, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do something different. Now I'm going to

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Speaker 2: interrupt that natural flow and try something else, which is hard,

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Speaker 2: and we should acknowledge that it's hard, because if we

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Speaker 2: don't acknowledge it's hard, then what we tend to do

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Speaker 2: is go, well, you went those students who didn't stop,

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Speaker 2: They must be terrible people. They're bad and obviously they

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Speaker 2: don't believe in their religion or whatever. Right, But that's

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Speaker 2: not a useful way of looking at these people. They're

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Speaker 2: just humans and we're all fallible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Now that does bring in the question

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Speaker 3: that I was going to ask about the time and effort. So,

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Speaker 3: because this does take time, and it does take effort

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Speaker 3: to actually slow down, challenge your own assumptions and actually go. So,

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Speaker 3: how might Daniel in this situation, you know what might

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Speaker 3: he be thinking? And we're in fast piaced business like

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Speaker 3: when people are going, I don't have time for this

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Speaker 3: empathy stuff. That's all very nice, but there's deadlines here.

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Speaker 3: Whether that's an individual in a team or a leader.

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Speaker 3: What would you say to those people who are going, yeah, Daniel,

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Speaker 3: I get all of this, and it's great when I.

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Speaker 1: Have time, but I've got a bloody deadline to meet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Agree, So let me think of it this way.

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Speaker 2: There's the old phrase measure towards cut one.

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Speaker 1: Yes, love it, love it? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Why does that exist? Well, because we know that when

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Speaker 2: we rush, when we don't, when we're not careful in

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Speaker 2: doing certain activities, there's a good chance we can make

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Speaker 2: mistakes and errors. In most big organizations, now, if someone said, hey,

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Speaker 2: we've got to make this decision, we could either do

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Speaker 2: some measurement and study, get some data behind it, or

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Speaker 2: we can just guess. I would suggest to you that

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Speaker 2: the vast majority of organizations today, people would say, maybe

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Speaker 2: there's gravi at least some data. Let's not just get right,

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Speaker 2: let's get some data and let's get some numbers in

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Speaker 2: what do the reports say? And you know, the idea

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Speaker 2: of data driven decision making? People go, oh, absolutely, we

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Speaker 2: should be getting lots of data, and I go one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent agree. Mathematician couldn't agree with you more. However,

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Speaker 2: some of the things that influence humans the most aren't

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Speaker 2: things you can measure and put in a spreadsheet very easily.

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Speaker 2: So things like emotions and values and relationships and culture.

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Speaker 2: You know, if you said relationship with my I could say,

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Speaker 2: my relationship with my wife is seventy three. What would

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Speaker 2: you do with that number? Okay, what does it mean?

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Speaker 2: How interesting or important is that number? In making it?

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Speaker 2: It's pretty much useful. But if you understood the relationship

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Speaker 2: I had with my wife, and you were trying to

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Speaker 2: sell me something or lead me or help me make

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Speaker 2: a decision in my financial world, for example, that would

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Speaker 2: be pretty important data. Would you agree the seventy three

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Speaker 2: I don't know what to do with that. But if

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Speaker 2: you spoke to me and understood the emotions and the

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Speaker 2: relationship and all those other hard to measure but really

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Speaker 2: important pieces, you'd make a better decision. And so what

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Speaker 2: I would say to people is, if you're going to

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Speaker 2: be working with another human and you need to make

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Speaker 2: decisions or you need to take actions around this person,

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Speaker 2: are you telling me that it's not worth understanding that data,

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Speaker 2: which is in most cases when you're dealing with another person,

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Speaker 2: that's all the gold, right, that's where all the really

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Speaker 2: important stuff is. So, yes, it's hard, Yes, it's challenging.

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Speaker 2: Can you make decisions about it? Of course you can

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Speaker 2: sometimes you have to. My challenge back would be if

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Speaker 2: you can better understand if you're talking on the phone

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Speaker 2: of someone who's had an insurance claient, understanding what the

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Speaker 2: context is of their life at the moment, it's going

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Speaker 2: to be much much more important for you to make

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Speaker 2: a decision. Then what's the policy? How do I put

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Speaker 2: you through this sassage factory and to pitch you at

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Speaker 2: the other end? Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: Now, when I'm running some workshops with leaders, particularly I

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Speaker 3: do a high performance teams workshop, and in part of

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Speaker 3: that I get everybody sitting around in a circle with

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Speaker 3: no tables in the way, and then I just thought

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Speaker 3: out there right, we're going to talk about the most

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Speaker 3: challenging thing we've ever had to deal with emotionally, right,

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Speaker 3: And I generally lead off on that, and it's it's

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Speaker 3: a tough session for a lot of people. And you

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Speaker 3: can see straight away some people tensing up and going

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Speaker 3: oh shit, And I actually say to them, now your

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Speaker 3: bringing is now whizzing around, going fucking else Should I

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Speaker 3: talk about this or will I just talk about the

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Speaker 3: lesser one? And I go hard, right, And then the

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Speaker 3: longer people with the more nervous they get. But and

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Speaker 3: it often becomes very emotional. But afterwards when we debrief,

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Speaker 3: people go, oh my god, and now really understand why

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Speaker 3: you do what you do. And I'll also get the

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Speaker 3: people to say Hyatt's had an impact on them and

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Speaker 3: their view of reality. And that's a very powerful session

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Speaker 3: for getting people to really it's not so much about

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Speaker 3: understanding the individuals, but just understanding how everybody has got

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Speaker 3: shit going on in their lives that impact why and

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Speaker 3: how they do things sometimes profoundly. Now, that is a

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Speaker 3: powerful session, but it takes a fur bit of time.

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Speaker 1: So what would you say then.

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Speaker 3: To people who who live in are operating in teams,

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Speaker 3: whether they're a leader or not about how they can

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Speaker 3: Is there any questions or is there a method that

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Speaker 3: they can use to help them to understand someone else's

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Speaker 3: view of the world without having to sit around and

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Speaker 3: get the tissues out.

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Speaker 2: It's a great and it sounds like a fascinating workshop,

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Speaker 2: and I'd love to be applying the wall in some

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Speaker 2: of those. I'm sure it's some really interesting things come out.

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Speaker 2: Here's the challenge I have back with the question, though,

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Speaker 2: if you're looking for a trick to build trust quickly,

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Speaker 2: it's not going to work. Yeah, you might have heard

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Speaker 2: of this one before. Paul talked about it before that.

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Speaker 2: The model I always think about inside people's brains as

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Speaker 2: an elephant with a man riding on his back. Have

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Speaker 2: you heard this one? So the writer is that conscious, smart, intelligent,

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Speaker 2: you know, thoughtful, pragmatic brain, the strategic part of our brain,

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Speaker 2: and the elephant is our emotional core. It's that intuitive

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Speaker 2: and instinctive piece and the writer, the writer thinks he

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Speaker 2: is in full control until the elephant has strong emotions

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Speaker 2: besides its game off. It's all onto the elephant man.

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Speaker 2: And what you're talking about here is getting people to

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Speaker 2: really expose some of that emotional core. The reason why

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Speaker 2: it's so powerful because it builds trust. Elephants are the

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Speaker 2: things that determine if I trust someone or not. Not logic,

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Speaker 2: not rationality correct. And you know, if I said to you,

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Speaker 2: tell me someone you really trust, tell me the exact

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Speaker 2: things they did to build that trust. And now what

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do is I'm going to do those

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Speaker 2: same things. So then you have to trust me the same.

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Speaker 2: Right you would say no, because's the way you ask

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Speaker 2: the question. I definitely don't trust you. This sounds tough, right,

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Speaker 2: because it's emotionally. It's decided by the ell you feel trust,

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Speaker 2: you don't think trust. And so if you want to

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Speaker 2: build that relationship of trust, then you do have to

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Speaker 2: invest the time to actually genuinely take care and concern

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Speaker 2: for that person. You have to genuinely demonstrate you want

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Speaker 2: to know. Some of the easiest ways to do it

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Speaker 2: is actually ask someone a question and then just listen,

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Speaker 2: that's really interesting, tell me more about that. How did

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Speaker 2: that feel? And just shut up and listen. Don't try

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Speaker 2: and bring your experience in. Don't try and oh well,

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Speaker 2: yeah that happened to me once too.

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Speaker 3: Oh hi, many fucking people do that right as soon

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Speaker 3: as people start talking and like they take over the

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Speaker 3: conversation about about them, And it's difficult not to do it,

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Speaker 3: isn't it, because it just triggers something in your brian

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Speaker 3: and you want to you want to kind of shore

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Speaker 3: and show that you're connected. But that can that can backfire?

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Speaker 1: Really count it?

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Speaker 2: Oh well, of course again again it's natural your brain goes, oh,

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Speaker 2: what about me? What about me? What about relate this

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Speaker 2: to my experience? And it does take conscious effort. I

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Speaker 2: remember working with a brilliant CEO, a gentleman named Peter

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Speaker 2: Harmer who ran I AG at the time, and we're

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Speaker 2: in a meeting and he got really upset, worked up

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Speaker 2: about something and he put his hands in the dest

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Speaker 2: and went calm down, Peter. And you know, he was

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Speaker 2: obviously very emotionally engaged in this conversation and the development

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Speaker 2: was ready to jump on in, but he knew that

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Speaker 2: to make a good decision in the team he had

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Speaker 2: to try and let others have space. And the CEO,

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Speaker 2: you know, comes in and says, I think we should

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Speaker 2: do this. Everyone else goes, okay, that's just for a

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Speaker 2: better and you don't necessarily get a great outcome. So

434
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 2: it's important to be able to park our elephants as

435
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 2: much as we might feel sad or gutted or upset,

436
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 2: whatever it might be. And you see this in people

437
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 2: like Louis Throu You see this in really great interviewers

438
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: and people have Andrew Danson does this very well. They

439
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 2: sit with things without putting themselves into it, without letting

440
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 2: their emotions overwhelm it. And it's a hard thing to do,

441
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: but really important to build that trust.

442
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 3: Louis Throu I think it's exceptional at it really really good. Yeah,

443
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 3: you just need to watch Louis Throu about how to

444
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 3: how to really open help somebody to open up. And

445
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 3: it reminds me actually of motivational interviewing. You're familiar with

446
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 3: motivational interviewing, which I started years ago, and it was

447
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,959
Speaker 3: a bit of a game changer for me actually in

448
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 3: dealing with clients and the Ore's approach that they have

449
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 3: of asking open ended questions right so that you get

450
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 3: somebody to talk, then giving people affirmations, you know, telling

451
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 3: them something that you'd like or admire or whatever, reflective

452
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 3: listening to your point earlier to actually listening in reflect

453
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 3: back the emotions I'm hearing that you're frustrated or whatever

454
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 3: it may be, right, and then in the yours approach

455
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 3: to then there's summarizing, but that's really about change talk.

456
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 3: You're summarizing change. That's that's when you're in a behavior

457
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 3: change thing. But it's that the open end of questions.

458
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 3: The aff for me is the reflective listening, because when

459
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 3: people feel that they've been heard and understood, that is

460
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 3: when you start to create that connection and that deeper

461
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 3: level of trust, isn't it absolutely?

462
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 2: You know? What I see in people like Louis Thrue

463
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 2: is he can sit in a place where he's talking

464
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 2: to someone who he vehemently disagrees with, but he's still

465
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 2: open to hearing, you know, you know, rushing the challenge

466
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,959
Speaker 2: and shoot down their ideas and thoughts, and because of

467
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 2: that you create this space for them to share more

468
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: and share more. And again people say to me, oh,

469
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: but it's wrong, they shouldn't say that. They're saying something

470
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 2: that's terrible, And my response is always, but do you

471
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 2: understand why they're saying it? And if you don't understand

472
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 2: why they're saying it, shutting them off too fast and

473
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: telling someone that I think what you're saying is terrible.

474
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 2: Often what people do is they don't stop thinking a

475
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: bad ideas, they just stop saying them. And herefore you

476
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: don't get access to the information that drives it. And

477
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: we've got to be able to build those bridges sometimes.

478
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 3: How important is curiosity for building empathy.

479
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 2: Vital? So when I started researching and studying this idea

480
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: of empathy is a way of building better decisions and

481
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 2: working more effectively in my career, I wanted a process

482
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: and I couldn't find a process for building empathy. So

483
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: I developed one. And the first step in the process

484
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: is what I call being consciously curious. And what I

485
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 2: mean by being consciously curious is acknowledging I have believed,

486
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: I have biases, I have heuristics, I have assumptions. I've

487
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: got a mind. I've got a head full of stuff

488
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 2: that's ready to make a judgment within a millisecond of

489
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 2: anything I see. It's all there, ready to go. Happy days.

490
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 2: My brain thinks it's all correct and I'm awesome. But

491
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: what I need to do to be consciously curious is go, Okay,

492
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 2: I'm here to meet Paul. I'm just going to put

493
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: all that stuff to the side. I'm fronting up with

494
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 2: a blank sheet of paper, and I'm really interested. And

495
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: so this conscious curiosity is easy to say, hard to do.

496
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: But that's the fundamental part of empathy, is it's not

497
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: about the reason why it is so important. But if

498
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: I don't, if I'm not consciously curious, what I'll do

499
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 2: is I'll ask questions. I'll explore with a view to

500
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: validating what I already think is true exactly.

501
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: And I think that's hugely important. I really like that

502
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: as a first step, actually.

503
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 3: Because all people need to do is just pause this

504
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 3: podcast and google cognitive biases, list of cognitive biases, and

505
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 3: you will see a huge list of cognitive biases. And

506
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 3: if you read through it, you realize that most of

507
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 3: us do most of these things quite a lot of

508
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 3: the time, right And we have, as you said, all

509
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 3: these heuristics, all these shortcuts that we have.

510
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: To do to be able to exist in the world.

511
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 3: But it makes our thinking become a little bit more

512
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 3: narrow And if you hang out with the same people,

513
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 3: and if you're going to test your assumptions on people

514
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 3: who generally I agree with you, you're just bunching off

515
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 3: the echo chamber, aren't.

516
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: You absolutely, and where we're becoming even better experts are

517
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: doing that than we've ever been before. You know, I

518
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 2: you don't have to look far past or far into

519
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: something like Facebook to find groups of people who are

520
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: just just consciously just constantly seeking more and more data

521
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: that validates what they believe and completely ignoring anything to

522
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 2: the contrary. And we've done it for a long time.

523
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: Humans are experts are doing this, have done it for millennia.

524
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: But in a world you know, I've said this at

525
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 2: a conference the other day, Paul, the world has never

526
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 2: been more complex than it is today. Right, Never ever

527
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: in human history has it been as complex it is

528
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 2: as it is today. And it is the simplest it

529
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: will ever be again. Today today is the simplest. In

530
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: the future. Things are only scaling up ter the complexity,

531
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 2: and the more we train ourselves to be sure to

532
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: be closed to think. You know, I don't want to

533
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: make it political, but going back to the good old

534
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: days making it great again, it's all all it's all

535
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 2: complete rubbish. We have to be open and curious and

536
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: working together to find new ways of connecting this in

537
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: this future. Otherwise we'll just keep diverging, keep creating more

538
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: groups of us and them, and I think that's the

539
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: path where humanity starts to fall apart and do terrible

540
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: things to each other.

541
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 3: Look, I think you're right, and I think with you know,

542
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 3: you see it, and I think a lot of it

543
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 3: has started in the United States, of that polarization of

544
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 3: the US and them and of the lack of de

545
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 3: be it that there's no spreading around the world.

546
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: And as you will, no social media has got a

547
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: lot to do with it.

548
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 3: With Eccule Chambers, I think people are becoming more and

549
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 3: more unconsciously rigid rather than consciously curing.

550
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: And it's a bad thing. So I love your first

551
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: thing in the process. Tell us about the other steps

552
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: in the process. Let's explore those a little bit.

553
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's four steps that we've got to go through.

554
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 2: Being consciously curious is important, then is to openly explore

555
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 2: and openly explore. The second step is about asking questions,

556
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: speaking and sitting in people's experience, trying to gather as

557
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: much data as we can. And what I mean openly explore,

558
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: it's really not rushing to find the answers I want.

559
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: And you know, if we take the US as a

560
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: good example, there people are very black and white on

561
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: things like gun laws. Oh well, people are pro guns

562
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 2: because they like guns, because they're gun toting hillbilities and

563
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 2: want to shoot everything. Sure, that's a good first thought assumption,

564
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: very fast. But what if it's that they're actually deeply

565
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 2: afraid of not being able to protect their family. Because

566
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: I love for my family is something that I can

567
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: relate to really strongly, and if I had a dpp

568
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: if and not being out of well, I could empathize

569
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 2: with that pretty quickly. How do I explore that? How

570
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: do I ask questions to understand that and understand the

571
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: real context behind that? What else will cause people to

572
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: think that way? This openly explorer about sitting in that

573
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 2: unknown world and just gathering that data.

574
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 3: In this, sorry Daniel to jump in, but in this

575
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 3: do you have to cultivate a sense of openness?

576
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: And the reason I'm asking that question.

577
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 3: I mean people will at work and a lot of

578
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 3: them will have done like a Myersprings test or a.

579
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: I can't remember what the other.

580
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 3: The disk test and these sorts of personality ones. But

581
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 3: most serious psychologists will tell you that they're kind of

582
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 3: pop psychology, and the most validated one is the Big

583
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 3: five personality traits, one of which is openness to experience.

584
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 3: I'm just wondering, I don't know if you've seen any

585
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 3: research whether that is linked to empathy, whether people who

586
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,240
Speaker 3: are higher in openness are actually higher in empathy.

587
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 1: So that's that's one question.

588
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 3: Then the second one is that do we have to

589
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 3: with this openly explore? Do you have to prime yourself

590
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 3: to be open to having new knowledge and having your

591
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 3: assumptions challenged.

592
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they fit together. So I haven't seen

593
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 2: research on that particular, because I know the Big Five

594
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 2: there are. What I always say with those of the

595
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: personality profiles is there are different underlying habits that we have,

596
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: and neurologically, what's going on here is our brain is

597
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 2: connecting these different neural pathways. There's trillions dollars, incredibly complex,

598
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: but the more we use them, the more they become

599
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 2: habitual and the go to. And so what we know

600
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 2: is that after a certain period of our lifetime, we

601
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: start to form pretty strong habits and we keep enforcing

602
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: in those pathways. This is important because it's for some

603
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 2: people they think, well, that's just how I am and

604
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 2: I can't change. Bullshit.

605
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: No, that's right.

606
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 3: That's how you've become because of your repeated behaviors. Donald

607
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 3: had the Scottish neuroscientists right, nerve sales that fire together,

608
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 3: wire together.

609
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 2: Exactly right. So neuroplasticity means you can always change your

610
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 2: entire life. There's no sort of stop to that. But

611
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: you change through deliberate practice, not through yes. And so yes,

612
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: you have to prime yourself, particularly if you're not someone

613
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: who is always that curious. You have to prime yourself

614
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 2: to go, Okay, this is a time when I really

615
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 2: want to understand when the hell's going on him. This

616
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: is a time where I need to be able to

617
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: park my assumption and just sit with the uncertainty and

618
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 2: the discomfort that will exist in this next conversation. I'm

619
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 2: going to actively stop going oh but what about or no,

620
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: that's not right, or yeah. It takes practice, and you've

621
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: got to catch yourself sometimes knowing that you thought you

622
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 2: weren't going to do it, and then you just did

623
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 2: it anyway because you're human, and I'm going to practice

624
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: again and practice again. So yes, I'm sure there are

625
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 2: people who are much better at this. Also the word

626
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 2: naturally and what that means, But that who have become

627
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 2: better at this over time, and there are people who

628
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 2: are a long way down the scale and need to

629
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 2: work harder. Yes, that's all true. But the deliberate practice

630
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: will make you better no matter where you are on

631
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 2: that scale.

632
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 3: And that's the point of the framework, right, is that

633
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 3: deliberately practice the framework. So we've got firstly being consciously

634
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 3: curious and then openly explore by I assume there's there's

635
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 3: an element of asking skillful questions in there and then

636
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 3: asking people to tell you more and exploring emotions.

637
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: What's the what's the third one?

638
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 2: Yeah? Before the other thing is you can brainstorm and

639
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,959
Speaker 2: age outside of yourself about another person when you don't

640
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 2: have access to talk to them. So, you know, if

641
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: I was to think why might someone become a suicide bomber?

642
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: I don't agree that. I think the terrible thing to do. Don't.

643
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: Don't think it's a great action to take. However, if

644
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 2: I just assumed, oh, that's because they're evil, Okay, tick

645
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: a box, that's a good assumption for me to take.

646
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 2: It's a short, quick assumption. Is it particularly useful? What

647
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 2: do I do? Now? Do I go to around people

648
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 2: and go, hey, make sure you're not evil, don't be evil?

649
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 2: Is that going to really have an impact? No, So

650
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 2: I can still without knowing them talking to them, I

651
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 2: can probably imagine that it's a pretty effective way of

652
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 2: causing damage when you don't have many resources. It could

653
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 2: be driven by religion, it could be driven by a parent,

654
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: it could be driven by a love. That can be

655
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 2: driven by politics and a sense of nationalism.

656
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 3: It can be it's a huge and a big one

657
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 3: is a lack of hope in your current situation.

658
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: Absolutely lack of hope. It could be want my children,

659
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 2: my generations of family to have a better life. And

660
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: this is the only course of action I feel empowered

661
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 2: I can take. So when I start the brainstorm there again,

662
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: I don't think any of these are good, valid reasons

663
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 2: to do that, But that's not really the point. The

664
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: point is, if I'm going to try and influence and

665
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 2: change the decision someone's going to make, I've got to

666
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 2: have this visibility of these things, right at least understand

667
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 2: that these things could exist, because it gives me more

668
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: starting points to have conversations and explore further. So it

669
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: is asking questions, but it's not the only way. If

670
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,919
Speaker 2: you've worked at a big company. Sometimes people up there

671
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 2: make a decision and you sit there and go, what

672
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: are these idiots doing there to make our life hard?

673
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 2: And quickly I'll go to a team, Are they're idiots,

674
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: they don't like us? Or where on the out I

675
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 2: make an assumption. I start communicating that assumption. It spreads

676
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: like wildfire. If instead I sat with my team, I said, hey,

677
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: they thought this, and one of my team goes, good,

678
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 2: their dicads, Okay, they might be What else could be

679
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: driving them?

680
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: Mhm?

681
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: You know that it's acius us so much more opportunity.

682
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 2: And what it then does is it allows us to

683
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 2: do step three, which is challenge my models. What are

684
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 2: those assumptions by a p heuristic? You know all those

685
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 2: things I've already got. What's the story? The plausible narrative? Again?

686
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: What's that? What it was that before? Now I'm going

687
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 2: to make a conscious decision to potentially alter it. Right

688
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: before I thought this, they are all just evil. Now

689
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 2: I go, well, actually, some people are going to be

690
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: doing it for different reasons. And once I can change

691
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 2: my mind and alter my mental models, that I can

692
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: use all the powers back to me. Isn't it now?

693
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 1: For some people, the force is very strong in them.

694
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 3: I what I think by that is the sense that

695
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 3: that that I am right and my model is right.

696
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 3: What sort of is there any guidance techniques that you

697
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 3: can give to people to being open to challenging their model,

698
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 3: or to deliberately challenge their model, because I think it's

699
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 3: a hugely important thing. I mean, I will often just

700
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 3: to give me a kind of case in point that

701
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 3: leverages off what you'd said earlier on, I tend to

702
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 3: read news from opposite sides of the political spectrum right

703
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 3: and it's a really interesting experiment going on to CNN

704
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 3: and then jumping across the Fox News and it's like

705
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 3: two different words. But even here in Australia, you read

706
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 3: the Guardian and then you read the Australian Right and

707
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 3: very very different takes.

708
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: And it gets you then.

709
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 3: To see that yes, there are different ways of interpreting things,

710
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 3: of viewing the world of all of this sort of stuff.

711
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 3: So what sort of things or what advice would you

712
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 3: give to people to be more deliberate about that, or

713
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 3: to to help them become more effective and challenging their model.

714
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: Because I think that this is this is really huge.

715
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 2: It's it's hard because there isn't an easy way. I

716
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: think doing things like you're doing are really really useful,

717
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,399
Speaker 2: exposing yourself the stuff you don't agree with, being able

718
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: to sit there and go, hey, I can hold this,

719
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: I can look at this idea, I can hold it

720
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 2: in my mind. I can interrogate it and think about

721
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 2: it without believing it, without accepting that it's true. And

722
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 2: one of the things often say, particularly for people making

723
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: decisions leaders in teams, that's not even in a relationships.

724
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 2: Do you want to be right or do you want

725
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 2: to get the right outcome? Because sometimes you don't get both.

726
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and.

727
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: It's obvious, right, we want the better app.

728
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 1: You can get both, but you'll pess people off.

729
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 2: Potentially potentially well sometimes you can. Yeah, but I know

730
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 2: lots of people who will burn things to the ground

731
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 2: to stand on the smoldering actions and say, well, see

732
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 2: I was right. Take that ball, I was right. A

733
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 2: cool where we now right? Instead of saying, hey, how

734
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 2: do we move forward here? And we saw this. This

735
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 2: is a study done quite a long time ago, and

736
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 2: the modern context it's probably made it worse, where they

737
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: would show a very similar news article to people who

738
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,919
Speaker 2: are pro Palestinian and pro Israeli, and both of them

739
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 2: would record report back how biased the same article was

740
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 2: in opposite directions directions we are when we see the world,

741
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 2: we don't see it in any sort of objectivity. We

742
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 2: see it through huge amounts of bias. And one of

743
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 2: the tips I always give people is to go, but

744
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 2: what if you're wrong? So in any situation, you know,

745
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 2: let's make a decision in a business, so we need

746
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 2: to you know, customer buy it. It must have been

747
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: because it was too expensive. Okay, cool, write that down.

748
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 2: What if we're wrong? Because if we're wrong, we might

749
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: well reduce the price and still not sell anything. Right,

750
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 2: we might do a whole bunch of marketing on this

751
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 2: new price and get no results. It would be bad,

752
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: wouldn't it. Okay, cool, Before we just dive headfirst into

753
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 2: this shallow pool here, let's step back and go what

754
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: if we're wrong? What are the other things? And interestingly enough,

755
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 2: I think there's elements from practices like risk management which

756
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:33,399
Speaker 2: are really useful here.

757
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was just about to say, stuff, get

758
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 3: go ahead with this because this is.

759
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 2: Just good practice. To go what else could be true?

760
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 2: How can we change this? What if we're wrong. And

761
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 2: I really challenge anyone to tell me that they know

762
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 2: all the answers, they've got it all right. You know,

763
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 2: the people when they say oh, I know everything and

764
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: I've got everything right immediately cause others to go bullshit. Yeah,

765
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: until you've become president, you know. Yeah.

766
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 3: And I think I think the best teams will will

767
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 3: actually have some people to to, you know, if they're

768
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 3: they're coming to a decision or they think this is

769
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 3: the decision. Have some people actually go away and create

770
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 3: a case for why we're wrong.

771
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: Right, So why did this feel? If you project forward?

772
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 3: Because that's all about challenging assumptions that we often have,

773
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 3: those assumptions that are are either maybe not wrong, but

774
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,720
Speaker 3: maybe not complete and can lead you down the wrong path,

775
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 3: right if you don't challenge those assumptions.

776
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: And look, one of the things that I think is

777
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 2: so important, the conversation around DEI and the attack on

778
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 2: diversity that's going on and all that sort of stuff

779
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 2: that's floating around. I have someone I get why it's

780
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 2: probably gone too far in some spaces. The sure, let's

781
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 2: get back to the nuts and bolts of this. If

782
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: we can get people who see the world differently surrounding

783
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 2: us and adding different perspectives and different points of view.

784
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 2: That makes that stronger. But without doubt, if I can

785
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 2: get people who can see the things that I can't see.

786
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 2: If I just fill the room with people who believe

787
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 2: what I believe, I've got a good horsepower. I'm just

788
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: kind of maybe heading the wrong.

789
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: Direction and very quickly, very quickly exactly right.

790
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 2: And so Paul, this is where how do we how

791
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: do we get people to do this sort of stuff?

792
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 2: We'll bit with interest and curiosity about people who disagree

793
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 2: with you, bring them closer to you and go, that's fascinating.

794
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 2: I don't totally disagree, but I'm interested.

795
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: And be anymore yeah, in that.

796
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 2: Space, and don't try and get an answer or who's right?

797
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 2: Throw that stuff away and just sit with it and go,

798
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 2: there's something in here. And you know, that's where we

799
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 2: find so much gold when we do it authentically. But

800
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: it takes that trust building that we talked about. The

801
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 2: excess you you mentioned earlier become really crucial because if

802
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 2: I ask people who don't trust me to tell me

803
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 2: what they think, they will modify what they say based

804
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 2: on what the relationship we have. What they think all

805
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff clouds and it gets real messy,

806
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 2: real powers.

807
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 3: And then often they will agree in the meeting, and

808
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 3: then they will go out and they will sabotize the

809
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 3: decision because I often say to this, people need to

810
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,280
Speaker 3: feel heard if they're going to be committed to a decision,

811
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 3: even if they don't agree with that decision, if they've

812
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 3: actually been heard and it's been discussed, then they're much.

813
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: More likely to get on board.

814
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 3: But if you just shut them down, often they'll go

815
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:44,439
Speaker 3: out and those sabotage and it fucking destroys organizations. I've

816
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 3: seen it, and it spreads like a cancer to your

817
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 3: point earlier on, then they go to their team and

818
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,439
Speaker 3: go these decads and blah blah blah blah blah. Right,

819
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 3: and then it just it just gathers legs and spreads

820
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 3: like a cancer. Absolutely, So we got the first three,

821
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 3: So be consciously curious, openly explore, challenge your model, your

822
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 3: mental models.

823
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: And then what's the fourth one?

824
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 2: And to your point, it's what I called leading with

825
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 2: empathy with which is what I mean by that is,

826
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 2: make decisions, take action, navigate through this world with your

827
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 2: new found data and understanding about the situation. So your

828
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 2: point that you just raise there is an exact example

829
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 2: I talk about often. You have to make a decision,

830
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 2: maybe as a leader or a business owner or whatever it.

831
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 2: But you got to make a call. We're going to

832
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 2: do X or Y. You talk to your team, you

833
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 2: gather information, you get their perspectives, to hear them. But

834
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: then at the end of the day, you've got to

835
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: make a call. And sixty percent of your team thought

836
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 2: it was a twenty percent b the rest thought both

837
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 2: are terrible. What do you do? You have to be

838
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,439
Speaker 2: able to use all that information to go team, I've

839
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 2: heard you, I've listened, this is what we're doing. Now.

840
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 2: At best percent of them might be a little bit

841
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,399
Speaker 2: happy that you've chosen their but what about the rest?

842
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 2: And to your point, as a leader, your job is

843
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 2: not to go well, I made the decision because of

844
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 2: the majority, I made the decision because it'll make most

845
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 2: people happy, or I'm not making a decision because I

846
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 2: need to make everyone happy and not everyone agrees. All

847
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 2: of that stuff is not leadership. In my view, Leadership

848
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 2: is saying I've listened. I have to own this decision.

849
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: This is what we're doing, this is why this is

850
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 2: how I've thought about it, and we're going to announce

851
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 2: take action. And you know that's a real challenge for

852
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 2: lots of people in organizations is to be able to

853
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,879
Speaker 2: hand on heart they I've just I've made a call

854
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 2: now to your point. If I do that, but I've

855
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 2: not listened to anyone, it's the captain's call from the

856
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 2: you know, my behind closed doors, then everyone in that

857
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: room's got the right to have the ship. God said.

858
00:48:58,200 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 2: But if I've listened to you and I can sit

859
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 2: and come back to you and go, hey, point, I

860
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 2: know this decision isn't the one you would have wanted.

861
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 2: I understand this, but look at this is what we

862
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 2: were facing. This is the sort of stuff. Is how

863
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 2: I thought through it, and I know this isn't exactly

864
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 2: what you wanted. So I wanted to talk to you

865
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 2: through this because I want to make sure we're on

866
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 2: the same page with how we're going to move forward,

867
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: and it's really important that we've got your commitment to

868
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:21,919
Speaker 2: stake those steps. Now.

869
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 3: I love the way that you bring that up, because

870
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 3: as you were talking about all of this, I'm thinking

871
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 3: about the high Performance Teams model that I used that

872
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 3: was created by pat len Chuney. And at the bottom

873
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 3: is trust, but it's a deeper trust based on vulnerability

874
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,720
Speaker 3: and understanding, not predictive trust, which is all the stuff

875
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 3: that you've talked about. Then it's about engaging in productive conflict,

876
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 3: as he sell, So it's that debate, hearing the other

877
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 3: sides of the story, which is very aligned to what

878
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 3: you're saying. Then it's about commitment, right because only when

879
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 3: you've had the productive conflict, you've had the conversations, you've

880
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 3: explored other ideas, can you expect people to commit and

881
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 3: they have to commit even if they don't agree to it.

882
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 3: Everybody has to commit. And then the next step is

883
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 3: holding people accountable to what they've actually committed to and

884
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 3: to their plans, which I think is is really critical.

885
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:23,800
Speaker 3: So it's very very aligned with that high Performance Team's model.

886
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: And I wanted to go back to.

887
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 3: Where we talked about that that that diversity of opinion,

888
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 3: because you know, the whole diversity thing, as you said,

889
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 3: is very polarizing, right there were there's there's people who

890
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 3: think we need more of it, there's people who think

891
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 3: we've gone too far and we need less of it.

892
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 3: So how do you how do you get that balance

893
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 3: as a leader. Let's think particularly or if you're an individual,

894
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 3: you've got a team, and how much.

895
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: Diversity do we need? Like where does it stop? And

896
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: and and then.

897
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 3: Is it you know, are you looking to peck people

898
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 3: who have an opinion but aren't emotionally completely welded to

899
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 3: that opinion or is there any guidelines here about how

900
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 3: to make this process efficient and not just get completely

901
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 3: stuck because there's fifteen points of view that people are

902
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 3: just like, this is the way it has to be.

903
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 2: How do lock that lane sots? Let's start by going, Wow,

904
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 2: it's gray, and it's messy, and is the complexity explodes

905
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 2: as soon as you get a bunch of people in

906
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 2: a room. Okay, so let's accept that that's just the

907
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 2: nature of the beast here we're stepping into it. Therefore,

908
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 2: the wrong ways to go about diversity and inclusion by

909
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 2: metricating it with specific processes that say that there is

910
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 2: a simple and clear answer to this huge, messy, you know,

911
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 2: completely complex space. So I think the answer to your

912
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 2: question is not, well, you put a quota in place,

913
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 2: so you do this, you do that, And that's not

914
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 2: to say that those can't be useful tools. But my

915
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 2: real question before people even look at this whole what

916
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 2: diversity do need is what are you trying to achieve?

917
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 2: What's your outcome here? What are you trying to do? So,

918
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 2: if I work where I work with mining companies like

919
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 2: php Afford used you and they're trying to bring more

920
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 2: people in, trying to bring more resources, they need more

921
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 2: female workers because otherwise fifty percent of the population is

922
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 2: just ruled out because of how their gender. Well, that's stupid.

923
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,479
Speaker 2: They've also found that they're often women are much better

924
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 2: at driving machinery because they don't push them too hard exactly.

925
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 2: Put that aside, So how do you navigate through it?

926
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 2: I think the first thing is to go it's going

927
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 2: to be hard, whether the paradox we have to grapple with.

928
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 2: We like people working with people who are like us.

929
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 2: It's easy. We finish each others sentences, we agree at

930
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 2: field nights. We need to work with people who are

931
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 2: not like us. But it's harder, it takes work, and

932
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 2: it takes time to build trust. So how do you

933
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 2: do that? Well? I think this is where you have

934
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 2: to be inclusive of a whole bunch of factors like gender, rate,

935
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 2: all that stuff. You can be very inclusive of those things,

936
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 2: but exclusive on your values. This is what we stand for,

937
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 2: This is our mission, this is what we believe. And

938
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 2: I don't mean values like integrity, honesty, communication, right, I mean,

939
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 2: let's really bring these down a few levels. I wrote

940
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:40,919
Speaker 2: another book on this before, but let's bring these few

941
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: down a few levels to the We will always and

942
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 2: we will never type statements of how we will show up,

943
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 2: what we believe, what we're trying to achieve, how we'll

944
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,919
Speaker 2: treat each other, because it's in that context of those

945
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,280
Speaker 2: values that we can interact in a way that creates trust,

946
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 2: creates certainty, creates that sense that we're aligned, and then

947
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 2: you can have lots of diversity in argument, but we're

948
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 2: on the same page because we're still really committed to

949
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 2: the mission we're on.

950
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like it. I like it.

951
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 3: And that requires that businesses have proper values, not the

952
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,360
Speaker 3: fluffy bullshit that me and you have seen so many times.

953
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 3: I'm always like, your values have to be or should

954
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 3: be behaviorally based, where you, Daniel can say to me, Paul,

955
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 3: you're not behaving in accordance with this value. They should

956
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 3: be there as a as a guide or a north

957
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 3: Star for making decisions.

958
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: I like that.

959
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 3: So we want the diversity of opinion and background and

960
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 3: rais and all of that stuff. But we're in the

961
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 3: same company that has the same values and as these

962
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 3: values that we're using to make these decisions.

963
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and so to your point, if where you asked earlier,

964
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 2: you know, if we're making decisions and people aren't agreeing

965
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 2: and they don't want to commit, you know, we've said

966
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 2: maybe we're we're an organization that says to drive the

967
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 2: amount of energy electricity we need to be functional in

968
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 2: the next twenty years. We can't just use green energy, right,

969
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 2: We've looked at the numbers. It's just not going to work. Now,

970
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 2: someone in my team might go, I absolutely vehemently disagree

971
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 2: with that, and we might say, well, okay, I understand it.

972
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 2: I respect your decision. I can see how that wouldn't

973
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 2: be a problem. But if that's going to be an

974
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,919
Speaker 2: issue for you, then let's talk about how we part

975
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 2: ways respectfully and graciously and carefully. You. I want to

976
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 2: be kind to you, I want to support you in that,

977
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 2: but what I don't want you to sit here is

978
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 2: with this cognitive dissonance every day that you're in a

979
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 2: place that you don't think he's doing the right thing

980
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 2: because that's not good for us and it's not good

981
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:56,439
Speaker 2: for you. And you know, sometimes people think empathies being

982
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 2: nice to people. It's not. It's been kind and you know,

983
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 2: kindness of saying hey, Paul, we need this standard from

984
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 2: you and you're not making it. So maybe this isn't

985
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 2: the right spot, Maybe this isn't the right job, maybe

986
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: this isn't the right role. Maybe we need to do

987
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 2: a lot more training. But this gap is a big problem.

988
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 2: And I want to support you and help you be

989
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 2: successful and happy. This is not going to happen here.

990
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,839
Speaker 2: What can we do that's empathy for you, and that's

991
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 2: caring about you, not coddling you and going, oh, well,

992
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 2: let's just give it a few more months while everyone

993
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 2: else in the team is pissed off because you're not

994
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 2: pulling your way. All that stuff goes on, right, and

995
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 2: we just destroy people's confidence in their future career because

996
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 2: we're not we don't care enough, or we're not brave

997
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 2: enough to hold that uncomfortable conversation and sit in that

998
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 2: emotion and be real with someone.

999
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I look, I completely agree on that, Daniel. This

1000
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 3: has been excellent. I really like the idea of empathy

1001
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 3: being based on those plausible narrative and the process, the

1002
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 3: four step process that you have. So anybody who wants

1003
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 3: to have better connection with other humans. So unless you

1004
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 3: want to go and live on an island by yourself,

1005
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 3: the empathy gap, I think would be a very useful resource.

1006
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 3: Why can people go to find out more about you?

1007
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 3: Buy the book as a speaker? If they want to

1008
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 3: bring in or consult in their business, what's the best

1009
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 3: place to send them?

1010
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, Daniel Murray dot au is the easiest handle

1011
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 2: to find me. That's my website. You can come and

1012
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 2: connect with me. I'm on LinkedIn all the time, as

1013
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 2: many of us are these days, and Empathic Consulting dot

1014
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 2: com is our business side as well. But any of

1015
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 2: those parts will leads through to me. And yeah, the

1016
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 2: books hopefully everywhere now, working hard to get it everywhere

1017
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 2: we can, and always always welcome those conversations, you know, Paul,

1018
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 2: I've really enjoyed this something. We could talk for hours.

1019
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 2: But I had a person who who messaged me on

1020
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 2: LinkedIn and they really challenged They said, I think this

1021
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 2: is bullshit. You know, I think empathy and sympathy are

1022
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 2: largely the same thing, and it's a weakness. And I

1023
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 2: really enjoyed that conversation because it gave me insight to

1024
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 2: what's really going on in the world around us. And

1025
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 2: i'd encourage anyone if you've heard this year, listen to

1026
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 2: this and go yeah, but it's not quite yeah. You know,

1027
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 2: I want to push back and reach out. I'm not

1028
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 2: going to tell you you're wrong, and you know, I

1029
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 2: don't wish you to blow smoke up as about it.

1030
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 2: I want us to really talk about it because the

1031
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 2: future is going to be shaped by all of us

1032
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 2: if we work together, or it's going to be torn

1033
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 2: apart when we want to be right and wrong and

1034
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 2: throw sticks at each other.

1035
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. Very cool, excellent Daniel.

1036
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 3: Thank you, good statement, and I wish you all the

1037
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 3: success in your book.

1038
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 2: Cheers mate, Thank you,