Speaker 1: Oh here we are. We're back. Everyone, We're back. I
Speaker 1: was going to start with a bang. I'm going to
Speaker 1: start low. I normally come in like hey, like that.
Speaker 1: I'm not doing that today, everyone. I'm just I'm just
Speaker 1: lulling you in, just with that kind of low key
Speaker 1: where we're going to build the energy through the show.
Speaker 1: We don't want to peak too early because otherwise then
Speaker 1: there's just gradual slide. So I'm just going to calmly
Speaker 1: and casually say I, tiff, I.
Speaker 2: Just felt a sense of calm just wash all over me.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like Jesus is hosting the podcast, isn't it.
Speaker 1: It's like the Dalai Lama has slipped into the number
Speaker 1: one seat. Speak pick your favorite guru. How's your day going? Cookie?
Speaker 1: Yeah good good.
Speaker 2: Just did some rounds with REXI at the gym. Seventy
Speaker 2: two years old, firing and like a teenager.
Speaker 1: How much like you do a lot of of Like
Speaker 1: you you coach people, you do a bit ofhead stuff,
Speaker 1: but you also do a lot of practical feed on
Speaker 1: the ground, face to face training with human strength stuff,
Speaker 1: conditioning stuff, a lot of boxing stuff. What's your favorite
Speaker 1: thing to do? Is it? One on one. Is it groups?
Speaker 1: Is it boxing training? Is it like, I know, you
Speaker 1: work with a few people with a few issues and
Speaker 1: you kind of help them through that through almost like
Speaker 1: physical therapy. What's your favorite face to face thing to do.
Speaker 2: I like, I like figuring out. I like exploring what's
Speaker 2: inside people's perceptions and that does that come through on everything?
Speaker 2: So that doesn't that doesn't matter if it's a boxing session,
Speaker 2: one on one, a boxing workshop, a mindset session. It's
Speaker 2: like everything's the metaphor for that. And I feel like
Speaker 2: that's what I'm like sneaking around DOINGOW and it's and
Speaker 2: it's fun that because pennies just drop, or you learn
Speaker 2: something in ways that it's like a puzzle or you
Speaker 2: see patterns and it's cool. I like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think there's like everything's intertwine. Let's say a
Speaker 1: load to the dock before we get too deep. Hi Doc,
Speaker 1: good morning, Good morning. How are you?
Speaker 3: I'm good for the morning. You know I'm not really
Speaker 3: a morning person, as you know.
Speaker 1: Well you look we were saying before we press the
Speaker 1: go button. Compared to it. I mean this with respect
Speaker 1: because tips and athletes, So she looks like an athlete
Speaker 1: and dresses like an athlete. Do you look like a
Speaker 1: bloody runway model with your hair and your lipstick and
Speaker 1: you I'm not saying done anything.
Speaker 3: I just literally got up and put lipstick on.
Speaker 1: If I'm not saying that you're not glamorous tips.
Speaker 2: I've worn some red lppy, but at least twice in
Speaker 2: the last five years.
Speaker 1: Is that? Because is that? I reckon, we might see
Speaker 1: a bit more red lippy. Doc. Because somebody doesn't have
Speaker 1: a boyfriend, nudge, nudgewi we you can invert it. Comments
Speaker 1: doesn't have a boyfriend? Okay, no, we know you don't,
Speaker 1: and it's good that you don't have a boyfriend.
Speaker 3: There's this mental health campaign called Liptember. It's for women's
Speaker 3: mental health, and I love it because it's it's associated
Speaker 3: with lipstick. So it's like mental health and lipstick my
Speaker 3: two favorite things.
Speaker 1: Well, I better get behind that.
Speaker 3: I've got like two hundred and fifty shades of lipstick.
Speaker 3: It's insane, and I always buy more because I'm like, oh,
Speaker 3: I don't have that exact shade I need read see.
Speaker 1: I just think that you admitted one of probably one
Speaker 1: of your numerous psychological issues. It is as a psychologist
Speaker 1: if somebody rocked up to you and said, I've got
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty different colored lipsticks. It's not enough.
Speaker 1: What would you tell them?
Speaker 3: I'd say, yeah, I totally get it. What about You're
Speaker 3: totally fine.
Speaker 2: The idea of trying to make a decision out of
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty colors every single day almost puts
Speaker 2: me into a state of complete malfunction.
Speaker 3: Well, I've recently organized them into like the boxes of shade,
Speaker 3: so I've got brown, orange, pink, and red and so
Speaker 3: then so I know like which shed I want and
Speaker 3: then I can pick out of them.
Speaker 1: Wow, here's a conversation organized chaos. Here's a conversation we've
Speaker 1: never had on the show. And I'm sure there's a
Speaker 1: lot there's a lot of people who are probably way
Speaker 1: more interested than me. I'm interested in the psychology behind it,
Speaker 1: the lipsticks, but the thinking, well, yeah, that is funny,
Speaker 1: isn't It's like, I don't know what it is about.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Do I just not care? Because I
Speaker 1: essentially wear every day a different black T shirt. And
Speaker 1: by the way, everyone I do have many ever Last
Speaker 1: T shirts and many Lonsdale T shirts. They're not the
Speaker 1: same one and any pairs of cat Go shorts. People
Speaker 1: think I have like one shirt and one No, I
Speaker 1: have like twenty or thirty of each. But yeah, what
Speaker 1: do you think that's about? Doc Where I just don't
Speaker 1: care what people think about what I wear, Like I
Speaker 1: at all should I care?
Speaker 3: It's not part of your sense of identity. But you know,
Speaker 3: there's probably some aspect that you care about. It might
Speaker 3: not be your overall like outfit that you care about,
Speaker 3: but it might be something about how you present yourself
Speaker 3: to the world. Ay know, like lipsticks obviously super super superficial,
Speaker 3: but there's something for me or something about like I
Speaker 3: don't have to have anything else put together my outfit,
Speaker 3: my hair, but if I have lipstick and I feel
Speaker 3: okay to present myself to.
Speaker 1: It is so interesting because like it's my best mate's kid.
Speaker 1: Shout out to Vincent and Laura, his daughter. She's getting
Speaker 1: married on the weekend, and I've got a drive to
Speaker 1: fucking forever away, but very gratefully and happy. And I
Speaker 1: was just talking to Laura about five minutes ago, who's
Speaker 1: getting married on Saturday, and I said, I've known her
Speaker 1: since she was a baby. I've known all these kids
Speaker 1: since she was a baby, and she's stayed at my
Speaker 1: joint where I'm at right now multiple times. She was
Speaker 1: like one of my surrogate daughters growing up. And I go,
Speaker 1: I don't have to wear a suit, do I? And
Speaker 1: she goes no, And I go jeans and shirt like,
Speaker 1: which for me is formal. She goes no. I go,
Speaker 1: what do you mean no? She goes, well, no blue jeans.
Speaker 1: She goes, you can wear black jeans and a shirt.
Speaker 1: I'm like, and I'm thinking, for me, ah, black jeans.
Speaker 1: I don't have black jeans. Now, I've got to get
Speaker 1: black jeans. That's like formal. That's like for that, I'm like,
Speaker 1: it's a nightmare, mate. I think it's probably inherently just laziness.
Speaker 3: Well, you've just worked out like how you want to live,
Speaker 3: and that's completely fine, and that's but like in some
Speaker 3: situations you might have to stretch your.
Speaker 1: Up, do you know what? I think? To feel free
Speaker 1: to disagree with this. But because I get up from
Speaker 1: when I get out, like if I get up at
Speaker 1: quarter to six ish, which I do most days, I'm
Speaker 1: at the cafe at quarter past six nearly every day,
Speaker 1: I meet with somebody to help them a bit, or
Speaker 1: like an official or unofficial coaching session. If not, I'm writing,
Speaker 1: I'm working and I'm planning for the day's podcast or
Speaker 1: the day's coaching sessions, or the day's PhD research or
Speaker 1: writing or the gig of you know. It's like, there's
Speaker 1: not a lot of time in my day where I'm
Speaker 1: doing not much. Like my most downtime in the day
Speaker 1: is going to the gym, talking shit, lifting a few weights,
Speaker 1: sliding into the vortex, which is the crab. My training
Speaker 1: partner's propensity. He could talk. It's funny like if you
Speaker 1: don't know him, he's like a mute. He's like shy,
Speaker 1: But once you know him, he does not shut up,
Speaker 1: which we love him for that. Anyway, I digress, But
Speaker 1: my long winded point is I just think of all
Speaker 1: the things I need to invest energy and attention in.
Speaker 1: I don't want to get up every day and wonder
Speaker 1: about what I'm going to wear and waste time on that.
Speaker 1: So I just go shorts, T shirt, runners, you know,
Speaker 1: hoodie done boom.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I'm like that a lot of the time.
Speaker 3: I mean, look, I actually wear pajamas more than any others.
Speaker 1: Wo. I wish I had it rocked up with Johnny
Speaker 1: and Buddy.
Speaker 3: I very easily could have. I know, it's like it's
Speaker 3: like ten forty five in the morning, but I didn't
Speaker 3: have any appointments this morning, so I mean I could
Speaker 3: have very easily come in my pajamas and had no
Speaker 3: issue with it at all. I remember once when I
Speaker 3: had my first daughter, and you know how the maternal
Speaker 3: well you might not know, but the maternal and child
Speaker 3: health nurse comes to your house within the first week
Speaker 3: to check on you. And I it was like two PM,
Speaker 3: and I answered the door in my pajamas, and I
Speaker 3: could see that she was worried about me. I'm like, no, no,
Speaker 3: don't worry. I'm always in my This is not a
Speaker 3: sign that ye're.
Speaker 1: Thinking you're not depressed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not having postpartum.
Speaker 1: What is it like that depression is depression? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was good.
Speaker 3: That's my happy place.
Speaker 1: I think though maybe I think we spoke about this
Speaker 1: a little bit before we went live. I think, because
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe this is subconscious, but because I
Speaker 1: used to worry about what I looked like so much,
Speaker 1: because I was so all about my body for a
Speaker 1: long time and all about my appearance and what people
Speaker 1: thought of me, and you know whatever creating what I
Speaker 1: thought at that time was the body that would I
Speaker 1: don't know, for God's sake, harps. But anyway, I thought
Speaker 1: people would like me more or be attracted to me,
Speaker 1: or impressed by me or something. And so I think
Speaker 1: I was so intertwined with what I looked like my identity,
Speaker 1: in my sense of self and self worth and self
Speaker 1: esteem I embarrassingly now looking back, but it was what
Speaker 1: it was. I got so much of that through how
Speaker 1: I looked or how I thought I looked for others,
Speaker 1: and not that I don't care how I look now,
Speaker 1: like I want to be in good shock. But maybe
Speaker 1: it's a pendulum swing from that.
Speaker 3: Well, I think a lot of us grow up with
Speaker 3: that in well, we all want kind of the sense
Speaker 3: of belonging, right, We all want to belong. We all
Speaker 3: want to be liked and loved and approved of, And
Speaker 3: unfortunately there's this very high value that society places, not
Speaker 3: just society necessarily, also it could be friends, family, and
Speaker 3: other significant people in your life that they place on appearance.
Speaker 3: So and when you're young, you internalize these messages. I
Speaker 3: remember being you know, like like I'm from any an
Speaker 3: Iranian background, and I think there's probably people from lots
Speaker 3: of backgrounds I can relate to this, but in Iran,
Speaker 3: like probably the top three values in Iran are education, hospitality,
Speaker 3: and beauty. Yeah, it's very high on the list, and
Speaker 3: so it's talked about a lot. And if you don't
Speaker 3: measure up to those high standards, or you think you don't,
Speaker 3: then you're gonna it's gonna feel not quite right and
Speaker 3: you're gonna start being maybe over focused on your appearance
Speaker 3: or over focused on how you don't measure up. Either way,
Speaker 3: it doesn't bode well for the future because it's it's
Speaker 3: really not one of the most important things in life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it is. We do have mixed messages because
Speaker 1: at the same time, you're right, we go, well, it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's all about who you are, and it's
Speaker 1: values and all that, which is true. I know I'm
Speaker 1: saying that flippantly, but it's true. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: we do live in a world that rewards beauty.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's very.
Speaker 1: So it's like, well, you know, if you are and
Speaker 1: even with kids, we say to little girls and little boys,
Speaker 1: are you beautiful? You are so gorgeous? Oh my god,
Speaker 1: look at you and look at you. You're so handsome
Speaker 1: in you, and everything's about how attractive they are.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. It's very true, and it's very hard
Speaker 3: to protect against that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I tried really hard with my children. Yes, to not
Speaker 3: say those types of things is like the kind of
Speaker 3: first thing or the regular thing. Yes, yes, but you
Speaker 3: can't control what other people say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what.
Speaker 3: You know, what we see is the kind of the
Speaker 3: first thing that we kind of comment on often, and
Speaker 3: that's how we.
Speaker 1: Look and think about this. If all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: and this is this was part of the problem for
Speaker 1: me because I went from being you know, this movedley
Speaker 1: i bees teenager to being a very fit, very lean
Speaker 1: a teenager with a much better body than he had
Speaker 1: a year ago. Then all of a sudden, you're getting
Speaker 1: accolades and you're getting attention, and you're getting social approval,
Speaker 1: and you're getting all of a sudden, you know, there
Speaker 1: were you know, my chances of having a girlfriend when
Speaker 1: I was fourteen were minus twenty six and then by
Speaker 1: the time I was fifteen sixteen, it was not altogether zero,
Speaker 1: you know, So you get a little bit of confidence
Speaker 1: and a tiny bit of social acceptance and status, because
Speaker 1: now like, and this is a horrible thing to say,
Speaker 1: but this is how it felt to me. Now I'm
Speaker 1: not ugly, I'm getting noticed, right, Yeah, And the truth
Speaker 1: is I did all of a sudden my body changed.
Speaker 1: And this is a terrible It was both a great
Speaker 1: but also terrible experience. I'm more popular now. So you
Speaker 1: draw this correlation between Oh, when I looked like that,
Speaker 1: I was not that popular or noticed or accepted or approved.
Speaker 1: Now I look like this, and this has owt come ergo.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know it was correlation or causation.
Speaker 1: I think it was causation because now I'm like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: guess what if I look pretty good, I get all
Speaker 1: these rewards. Imagine if I looked fucking amazing, and then
Speaker 1: then imagine if I look like a freak. Goddamn freak,
Speaker 1: you know. And so for me, that just escalated. You're
Speaker 1: always trying to get I think, well I was. I
Speaker 1: think we're trying to resolve psychological and emotional issues with
Speaker 1: a physical, you know, some kind of physical change, and
Speaker 1: not that you not that I really understood that that age,
Speaker 1: But that's kind of because acceptance and approval and love
Speaker 1: like you said, and connection and belonging. I mean, all
Speaker 1: of those are internal drivers, and we think we're going
Speaker 1: to meet those needs with bigger biceps or a prettier
Speaker 1: face or you know, a leader body.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I actually had a very similar experience to you.
Speaker 3: Like I was the quintessential nerd in high school and younger.
Speaker 3: So not just in the fact that I was like
Speaker 3: a good student, but like I looked like it too,
Speaker 3: Like I had a very large Diana Prince glasses. Do
Speaker 3: you know Diana Princes Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the alter
Speaker 3: ego wonder Woman. I don't know if you ever watched
Speaker 3: that show in the eighties, but she had gigantic glass.
Speaker 1: Linda Carter Carter, Yeah, absolutely, I had a hard crush
Speaker 1: on Linda. I look up Linda Carter because you're too young,
Speaker 1: look up Linda Carter wonder Woman. Yeah it's fairy. I
Speaker 1: may have been madly in love with Linda Catter. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I had not out of my not out of my
Speaker 1: leg at all.
Speaker 3: No one's out of your league, Raig. I had those glasses,
Speaker 3: I had braces. I was like I was. I was
Speaker 3: very skinny. I just and I didn't I had my
Speaker 3: features were too big for my face. I had a
Speaker 3: very like skinny face as well, and like just very
Speaker 3: flat hair. I just did it. I mean I just
Speaker 3: was like, if you looked up nerd in the dictionary,
Speaker 3: that's what I look like. So when I had my
Speaker 3: kind of I feel like change positive change in the
Speaker 3: like if we're going to think of it as positive,
Speaker 3: which we actually shouldn't, but how I kind of viewed
Speaker 3: it when I was younger, around that seven sixteen seventeen
Speaker 3: age and I and at seventeen, I actually went from
Speaker 3: high school to university, so I had this way of
Speaker 3: completely reinventing myself. Right nobody knew me I was the
Speaker 3: nerdy girl from high school. I was like, it's like.
Speaker 1: A new chapter and you could write whatever you want.
Speaker 3: And also like I wasn't planning on like changing anything
Speaker 3: necessarily about how I how I was in the world.
Speaker 3: But what I noticed was what you noticed. It's like,
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, all these people are coming at me, yeah,
Speaker 3: and they're expressing things that I've never heard before, and
Speaker 3: they're interested in me, and they like somebody asked me
Speaker 3: out on the first day, and I was like, what
Speaker 3: is actually happening. I don't understand. So it was just like, yeah, no,
Speaker 3: it's powerful. It's powerful when you get that overt praise
Speaker 3: for something like your appearance, because then you can get
Speaker 3: really sucked into that being the important thing.
Speaker 1: And then so what is I don't know if the
Speaker 1: right question is what is the antidote or what is
Speaker 1: the solution or what is the counterbalance? But I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, like, and it's probably worse now. I think,
Speaker 1: like I look at the kids in the gym, like
Speaker 1: where I train at four o'clock in the afternoon, it's
Speaker 1: mostly teenagers. Like, it's mostly a few young girls Jamie,
Speaker 1: my training partner's daughter, and a lot of young teenage boys.
Speaker 1: Who are you know? I think? And I was the
Speaker 1: same or worse, but pretty obsessed. And it's on the
Speaker 1: one hand, you want kids to be fit and strong
Speaker 1: and to exercise in all of those things, which is great. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you can't be some old fuck.
Speaker 4: Going by the way, you know, what you look likes
Speaker 4: not as important as whether or not you're a good Yeah,
Speaker 4: they're like fuck off, Grandpa, Like you know, I mean
Speaker 4: it's because they don't care, not that they don't care
Speaker 4: what I think.
Speaker 1: Of course they shouldn't. They don't need to. But what
Speaker 1: I mean is it's like, yeah, but I get socially
Speaker 1: rewarded for this, and that's really important. Yeah, Like, the
Speaker 1: better I look, the better life is for me on
Speaker 1: a level. And that's an kind of an awkward truth
Speaker 1: and it shouldn't be that way, and it's not that
Speaker 1: way for everybody. But look at the you know, like
Speaker 1: what's happening on social media. You look at a young
Speaker 1: attractive female, Yeah, she will have lots of followers because
Speaker 1: she's a young attractive female, not because she's got one
Speaker 1: hundred and forty IQ or not because she's got necessarily
Speaker 1: some amazing skill set. She might have all of that,
Speaker 1: by the way, but or if you're a young dude
Speaker 1: and you're jacked or you know, it seems that things
Speaker 1: like whether or not you're a good human, or whether
Speaker 1: or not you've got great values, whether or not you're
Speaker 1: brilliant academic, or whether or not you've got an incredible
Speaker 1: skill set doesn't matter in some areas. It doesn't matter
Speaker 1: nearly as much if we're being honest, as just what
Speaker 1: you look like and what people think of what you
Speaker 1: look like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's really complicated when like you said
Speaker 3: everything around you was saying it's one of the most
Speaker 3: important things.
Speaker 1: Yes, what about you though, in growing up where you
Speaker 1: grew up where you said, Like, it's funny because you
Speaker 1: said one of the priorities in Iran was like beauty,
Speaker 1: which I understand. I spoke to my mum the other
Speaker 1: day and she said, what did you She's asked me
Speaker 1: what I did? And I said, I just met with
Speaker 1: someone this morning. And said oh, and i'd met and
Speaker 1: I'd had a coffee with you and said, oh, who's that?
Speaker 1: And I said, oh, lady who does much? You know,
Speaker 1: she's like this Iranian American psych She lives in a
Speaker 1: She goes, oh my god, Iranian women are so beautiful.
Speaker 1: That's my mum. I'm like, really, she goes, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: Iranian women amazing, Like there's this global reputation for yeah,
Speaker 1: for that. And so when you said that one of
Speaker 1: the values is beauty, it's like, yeah, I And of
Speaker 1: course there's nothing wrong with being beautiful or handsome or whatever.
Speaker 1: Of course it's great. But I guess it's about maybe
Speaker 1: the relationship that we have with beauty.
Speaker 3: What I mean, when I was growing up, I resented
Speaker 3: it because I didn't match that idea. So I didn't
Speaker 3: I the focus on it. I didn't understand it because
Speaker 3: at that age, I didn't understand that was a high
Speaker 3: value of my culture. Like I didn't understand why that
Speaker 3: was always the first thing people said to you. Yes
Speaker 3: you know something about how you looked, or oh you
Speaker 3: lost weight or oh you gain weight, or oh this
Speaker 3: or that. And I know that that's not just part
Speaker 3: of Iranian culture. That's I hear this from so many
Speaker 3: you know, different families and how people are grown up,
Speaker 3: Like it's literally the first thing will people comment on.
Speaker 3: So I think at a really early age, I had
Speaker 3: this kind of sense of I don't think this is right.
Speaker 3: And so when things changed for me in terms of
Speaker 3: appearance and I was getting kind of more approval in
Speaker 3: that area, I still had this sense of, like, this
Speaker 3: isn't the most important thing because I'm not a different
Speaker 3: person like on the inside. Yes, So I think actually
Speaker 3: it took me a while before I really realized even
Speaker 3: like why my family and my family's friends behaved that way,
Speaker 3: because I actually resented it for a long time, Like
Speaker 3: I thought this so wrong for people to like think
Speaker 3: that this is appropriate to make comments about me or
Speaker 3: anybody's appearance or body. And then I actually saw a
Speaker 3: documentary on it was about I think it was about
Speaker 3: plastic surgery or something like that, and how there are
Speaker 3: certain places in the world where it's more prevalent, and
Speaker 3: one of them was Iran, and that the way that
Speaker 3: they viewed it was like with pride, you know, because
Speaker 3: and they like, like, you know, in some places, like
Speaker 3: you want to hide that you have work done, but
Speaker 3: in Iran it's like, no, you want to show that
Speaker 3: you've had it done, because like you're you're looking for
Speaker 3: this kind of ideal, kind of perfection. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: I didn't realize that that's how they viewed it. And
Speaker 3: that's the understanding just helped me resent it less, not
Speaker 3: as like a not overall like I still don't think
Speaker 3: that that's a healthy way of being, but like resent
Speaker 3: it from the people from that culture who are making
Speaker 3: those comments, because that's where they came from and that's
Speaker 3: what they've internalized. That's that's where their belief systems came from.
Speaker 3: But I think what's really important is to question all
Speaker 3: of those internalized beliefs and things messages that you've grown
Speaker 3: up with as you get older, because what's really important
Speaker 3: is what we're actually wanting, which is underneath that, which
Speaker 3: is that belonging in that connection and that those positive
Speaker 3: relationships with people. Yeah, that's what we're really wanting.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like when we talk about goals, we talk
Speaker 1: about the what and the why. You go, well, what
Speaker 1: I want is I want to be attractive, But what
Speaker 1: you really want is the why. Like my reason to
Speaker 1: be attractive is because I think that being attractive or
Speaker 1: losing weight or whatever, building muscle or whatever is a
Speaker 1: conduit to the thing that I want, which is love, connection,
Speaker 1: like approval, tension, approval, all of those things. So how
Speaker 1: do we how do we? Like, does identity matter? Like
Speaker 1: we we the sense of self that I have or
Speaker 1: you have that I think my identity I don't know,
Speaker 1: like I care. I mean if I didn't say, if
Speaker 1: I said I don't care about what people think of me,
Speaker 1: that would be a lie. I'm not. I'm not obsessed
Speaker 1: with it. I'm not wildly insecure about it like I
Speaker 1: once was. Like I care, of course, of course, and
Speaker 1: I can still get my feelings hurt, and I can
Speaker 1: still get upset and all of those things. But is
Speaker 1: it worth thinking about as us as individuals where our
Speaker 1: sense of self and identity comes from? Is that that
Speaker 1: is that a worthwhile kind of so ecological rabbit hole
Speaker 1: to go down, for sure?
Speaker 3: I think we should we I think I see a
Speaker 3: lot of people who come you know, as like IM
Speaker 3: for listeners who don't know, I'm not sure if we said,
Speaker 3: but I'm a clinical psychologist, so I see people on
Speaker 3: an individual basis. A lot of people come in with
Speaker 3: issues around self worth, right, a lot of people. And
Speaker 3: one of the things that we do together that they
Speaker 3: may not have done at all before, or have maybe
Speaker 3: done it a little bit but not enough, is really
Speaker 3: question where their values and beliefs come from, right, and
Speaker 3: whether they want to have those values and beliefs still, yes,
Speaker 3: because we grow up with you know, we're all brainwashed, right,
Speaker 3: and we're like where we grow up in a particular family,
Speaker 3: in a particular society, and we're not born with all
Speaker 3: of these ideas. We learn them over time, and some
Speaker 3: of those messages that we get are going to help
Speaker 3: us develop a strong identity and a healthy identity and
Speaker 3: others may not. And what can happen as we just
Speaker 3: well as a children, we just internalize whatever ideas are
Speaker 3: significant others in part to us without question because we
Speaker 3: trust that that's what they're telling us and what they're
Speaker 3: showing us is right. But we can go through life
Speaker 3: and never question that.
Speaker 1: Well, I think one of the interesting yeah, I agree
Speaker 1: with all that. We talk about this a bit here,
Speaker 1: like when you think about your current beliefs and then
Speaker 1: you think about when you chose them. Yeah, that's people go,
Speaker 1: what when did you choose that? When did you when
Speaker 1: did you decide that that was true for you? Well,
Speaker 1: that was, you know, was the right belief And people like,
Speaker 1: well what, because we don't We essentially just adopt, like
Speaker 1: you said, the people in our world that we listen to,
Speaker 1: that we respect, that we're around, maybe even some of
Speaker 1: the people we don't fucking like, but we're around them.
Speaker 1: They tell me I'm shit, you're shit, You're worthless. You
Speaker 1: tell me that a thousand times, and I'm a child.
Speaker 1: Well I believe it now because that's the messaging I'm getting.
Speaker 1: And I never chose to have that belief. I just
Speaker 1: have that belief as a byproduct, as a terrible byproduct
Speaker 1: of a horrible situation, or as you said, as you said,
Speaker 1: you know some of them serve us and positively, and
Speaker 1: some of them don't. But it's like, yeah, when do
Speaker 1: we do It's almost like when do we do a
Speaker 1: stock take on our own beliefs? When do we kind
Speaker 1: of put them up on the metaphoric hoist like the
Speaker 1: car and the garage and walk around that belief and
Speaker 1: kick the tires and fucking lift up the hood and go,
Speaker 1: I don't know if this works for me? Like is
Speaker 1: this actually? Do I believe in this? And if I do,
Speaker 1: why do I believe it? Where did the belief come from? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Is there any chance that this belief could be bullshit? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think that you can do that at any time
Speaker 3: in your life, Like it's never too late, but I
Speaker 3: think as early as possible. And maybe, and you know,
Speaker 3: probably we should in the way that we raise our children.
Speaker 3: We should be asking questions rather than expecting our kids
Speaker 3: to take on everything that we believe and everything that
Speaker 3: we value. We should be supporting like critical analysis, you know,
Speaker 3: from a very early age.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you, Like you spoke about self
Speaker 1: worth and then you spoke about belief, but the kicking
Speaker 1: off point was identity. If you can so, identity, self
Speaker 1: worth and belief how do they intersect? Like what is
Speaker 1: the relationship between between those three things? So identity, self worth,
Speaker 1: and belief? Like maybe start with could you just define
Speaker 1: self worth? Like what is in just your terms? Is
Speaker 1: that just how I see me?
Speaker 3: Yes, it's the belief that you have about yourself and
Speaker 3: the value that you have that is not dependent solely
Speaker 3: on the approval of others. Right for the beliefs of
Speaker 3: others about you. One of the really interesting things that
Speaker 3: I've come across in terms of research, and this is
Speaker 3: and the reason I've come across it is because it
Speaker 3: was done by one of my professors at Emory named
Speaker 3: doctor Marshall do Go, along with the colleague named Robin
Speaker 3: five Ish, and they did these They did these experiments
Speaker 3: around storytelling. So what they actually found was the more
Speaker 3: that families told stories about their history, not just their
Speaker 3: own immediate history, but of generations before. The more that
Speaker 3: the children knew those stories and were able to even
Speaker 3: detail the stories themselves, the better their identity. The stronger
Speaker 3: their identity, the better their self esteem, the stronger their
Speaker 3: resilience was because they developed an identity that was more
Speaker 3: than just about themselves and even just about their immediate
Speaker 3: family it was like this intergenerational identity yes, wow, yes,
Speaker 3: so interesting and very robust results. So they came up
Speaker 3: with these kinds of questions that aren't actually that complicated,
Speaker 3: like to start with, like do you know, for instance,
Speaker 3: where your mother was born, Do you know where your
Speaker 3: father was born? Do you know how they met? Do
Speaker 3: you know how your grandparents met? Do you know you
Speaker 3: know what were some of the challenges that you know,
Speaker 3: the people in your family experienced, you know, one, two,
Speaker 3: three generations ago, what were the outcomes of those what
Speaker 3: were their personality characteristics? And the more that they can
Speaker 3: that children can actually not only like know that information,
Speaker 3: but also relate themselves into it. So for instance, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh that characteristic of my grandfather that sounds
Speaker 3: a lot like me, or like that's something that I
Speaker 3: would have done, or like what I think I would
Speaker 3: do in that situation. The more that they feel that
Speaker 3: connection and that belonging that goes far far deeper. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and that really can create this really strong sense of
Speaker 3: identity that goes beyond you know, these superficial things that
Speaker 3: we get inundated with via social media, society or even
Speaker 3: sometimes within our immediate families.
Speaker 1: One of the I mean, like it or not, an
Speaker 1: inevitability of the human experiences that other people are going
Speaker 1: to think stuff about us, good stuff, bad stuff. Other
Speaker 1: people are going to have opinions, just like we have opinions.
Speaker 1: You know, you walk down the street, you see someone,
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're a bad human, but you're always you
Speaker 1: already have an impression like our brains, our impression formation machines,
Speaker 1: you know. And it might just be trying to to
Speaker 1: tech danger, or it might be curiosity. But you know,
Speaker 1: we're always detecting and assuming and labeling and inferring, and
Speaker 1: sometimes we're wildly right or wildly wrong. But knowing that,
Speaker 1: I feel like some people move through the world worrying
Speaker 1: about worrying about what other people think of them and not.
Speaker 1: Now let's talk about let's differentiate that between between that
Speaker 1: and my research, which is having an understanding of how
Speaker 1: people perceive and experience us, you know, which matter accuracy,
Speaker 1: like being able to know what it's like to be
Speaker 1: around you, which is used the right way. It's a
Speaker 1: social kind of superpower into personal tool that we can use. Right.
Speaker 1: So there's that which is just knowledge and awareness which
Speaker 1: can be used positively, but at the other end of
Speaker 1: the scale, there's this worrying myself sick about what the
Speaker 1: guy in the second office down the corridor thinks of me,
Speaker 1: or my boss thinks of me, or that whoever. Like,
Speaker 1: how do we because it's not like we want to
Speaker 1: move through life not giving a fuck about anyone else. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because we want to be, you know, all the things
Speaker 1: that we want to be empathetic and kind and awareness
Speaker 1: and have a bigger than us awareness and all those
Speaker 1: nice things which we do. But you don't want to
Speaker 1: spend life being worried about what people think you, right,
Speaker 1: So can you speak to that? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I love that topic because I think because I know
Speaker 3: that you know, you're the expert in self awareness. And
Speaker 3: is there such a thing as too much? Yes? Of
Speaker 3: you know, like there's a functional part, which is what
Speaker 3: you're talking about in researching How do people experience me
Speaker 3: in the room? What impact am I having on other people?
Speaker 3: Can I tell if it's you know, helpful or hindering me?
Speaker 3: And what can I do about it?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And then there's the dysfunctional self awareness which I see time,
Speaker 3: you know, when people come and see me, it's often
Speaker 3: related to how other how is I perceived? Worry about,
Speaker 3: rumination about and over analyzing about what was said, how
Speaker 3: it was said, Did I make a mistake? Do they
Speaker 3: still like me? Will they still will they still like me?
Speaker 3: Are they going to reject me? Are they going to
Speaker 3: abandon me? Pretty much anything that can be functional can
Speaker 3: be dysfunctional as well. So it's like, well, how do
Speaker 3: you know when it's going awry? And often that's through
Speaker 3: I guess, really knowing what are your behaviors? You know,
Speaker 3: like if we're, for instance, we're overly relying on other
Speaker 3: people's approval and we're anxious and fearful about being judged
Speaker 3: or rejected or abandoned, that can lead to dysfunctional people
Speaker 3: pleasing behaviors for Insteah, and those are things that you
Speaker 3: can like see and notice and monitor within yourself, like
Speaker 3: what are you actually doing? And is that helpful or
Speaker 3: is that unhelpful? Is that healthy or is that unhealthy?
Speaker 3: Is that functional or is that dysfunctional? And I think
Speaker 3: one of the main, main, main things and the most
Speaker 3: important thing in all of this is that can you
Speaker 3: evaluate all of this without judging yourself?
Speaker 1: I mean the problem, the problem or the challenge in
Speaker 1: doing that is that you know, we because we're because
Speaker 1: it's us we're thinking about and talking about it. It's
Speaker 1: completely subjective, you know, and it's trying, and we're always
Speaker 1: we're always interpreting what someone else is doing through our
Speaker 1: own lens out, so we don't know what their attention is.
Speaker 1: We don't know what that mean, you know, sometimes we do.
Speaker 1: But like an example of this, so I don't want
Speaker 1: to throw her under the bus. But the other day,
Speaker 1: so I think it was on the weekend, I trained
Speaker 1: a young lady that I've helped a bit ash who
Speaker 1: who was on the podcast, and she's lost seventy kilos
Speaker 1: and she's gone from really unhealthy to really healthy, and
Speaker 1: she's changed her life and she feels and functions better
Speaker 1: and life's better and all this stuff, right, And she
Speaker 1: was in the gym training and I took like a
Speaker 1: ten second video of her training, and I thought, my
Speaker 1: listeners will maybe be interested to see here's the girl
Speaker 1: that's lost the seventy k's and you know, right, so
Speaker 1: I put up the video and it had twenty five
Speaker 1: thousand views in twenty four hours, right, So I wouldn't
Speaker 1: call that, you know, what do you call it viral?
Speaker 1: But it went pretty well right, and all of the
Speaker 1: comments were good, except one person asked a question which
Speaker 1: I didn't think was negative. I think it was a
Speaker 1: genuine question, and Ash sent me a message because she'd
Speaker 1: thought that that person was being negative. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: it's so funny because the overwhelming response was, oh my god,
Speaker 1: you're amazing. That's fucking great, well done, incredible, like it
Speaker 1: was all good, all love, all positive. Then one person
Speaker 1: asked a question which was really just a question, and
Speaker 1: then she sent me a message, Oh, what's with the
Speaker 1: what's with the hate or something? And I go, what what?
Speaker 1: I'm like, dude, you know, but it's funny that. And
Speaker 1: I've done the same thing. I've done gigs where I
Speaker 1: got overwhelmingly good feedback and one person who didn't love me,
Speaker 1: but the majority, you know, it was somewhere between pretty
Speaker 1: good and really really well received. And one person got
Speaker 1: their nose out of joint because something I did or
Speaker 1: said or a story and they came up and let
Speaker 1: me know. And it was literally one out of five
Speaker 1: hundred people, And all I thought about was the one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the four ninety nine had no positive impact. It was
Speaker 1: all about the one. And I drive home being angry
Speaker 1: and frustrated and because one person didn't like me. What
Speaker 1: the fuck is that? Doctor?
Speaker 2: What is that?
Speaker 3: Oh, there's so many things. I think it hurts.
Speaker 1: But why do we care so much about the one?
Speaker 1: Why does that stranger that will never meet again? Why
Speaker 1: do we allow them to have? You know, it's like
Speaker 1: when people, you know, when people go and people have
Speaker 1: said this to me, they go, oh, you make me
Speaker 1: feel like that, Like, why don't make you feel? That's
Speaker 1: just how you feel? And what I said might have
Speaker 1: been the you know, the starting off point, it might
Speaker 1: have been the stimulus. But the reason that I didn't
Speaker 1: make you is because I said it to a lot
Speaker 1: of other people and they didn't feel what you feel.
Speaker 1: So you created that. But I've done that myself where
Speaker 1: I get myself into a tease and it's it's definitely me,
Speaker 1: that's the problem.
Speaker 3: Well, we are, I mean, our brains are kind of
Speaker 3: primed to notice the negative, the unsafe. Yeah, so that's
Speaker 3: I guess we have that vulnerability already just being human
Speaker 3: that we're looking for threats in the environment. And I
Speaker 3: guess you know, we're not facing a lot of major
Speaker 3: threats to our livelihood, you know, in terms of life
Speaker 3: and death. But so the threats are more like too
Speaker 3: belonging to connection, to approval and that so it sticks out,
Speaker 3: sticks out, and it's almost like you have to train
Speaker 3: your brain. It is actually not almost like it is
Speaker 3: like you have to train your brain to notice and
Speaker 3: appreciate and elevate the good things in life, the positive messages,
Speaker 3: the healthy, the healthy things, the things to be grateful for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Tiffany and Cook, I've got a question for you
Speaker 1: in this steady on, steady on, older horses, hold your horses,
Speaker 1: Like we've spoken a bit about this, because you've been
Speaker 1: without opening the door wide. It's just opened a little
Speaker 1: crack where you've been let down and hurt and mistreated
Speaker 1: and a whole lot of shit by people, as have
Speaker 1: many people. But we're talking about you. What when it
Speaker 1: comes down to you. But also you've had a bit
Speaker 1: of a spiritual revolution and revelation lately, and you've kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, and we've spoken about this. You've energetically and
Speaker 1: perhaps spiritually and emotionally and psychologically turned a bit of
Speaker 1: a corner. Blah blah blah all of that, which I
Speaker 1: do mean to say that flippantly, but that's where you're
Speaker 1: at So my question to you and maybe to you
Speaker 1: also literally and is what's your criteria for trust, like
Speaker 1: with people that you like? You know? It's like my
Speaker 1: metaphor is like I know a lot of people, but
Speaker 1: I don't trust a lot of people. Now that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean I distrust the majority. It just means like, for
Speaker 1: me to truly trust someone, it takes a bit because
Speaker 1: I've had and there's no self pity in here, because
Speaker 1: I'm just one of many. But I've had a lot
Speaker 1: of people fuck me over a lot and backstab and
Speaker 1: bitch and do some horrible shit, people that I really
Speaker 1: loved and trusted and valued. So for me to actually
Speaker 1: really trust, it's not a quick process. What about you?
Speaker 1: What about let's start with you, Tiff.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a really good question. And I feel like.
Speaker 1: I'll remind the viewers that Tiff is the girl who
Speaker 1: wears the baseball cap that says give us a hug
Speaker 1: and the T shirt that says fuck off.
Speaker 2: Though I think that I think I'm I'm still in
Speaker 2: the middle of an enormous amount of processing of that
Speaker 2: shift that I experienced recently. I'm still in the middle
Speaker 2: of that, and in the middle of that so in
Speaker 2: this whole conversation, I've been listening and thinking and processing
Speaker 2: and of everything you've been saying that relates to kind
Speaker 2: of this. But I feel like maybe right now I'm
Speaker 2: learning to observe who I am around people, and because
Speaker 2: it's a me thing, like I identified a long time ago,
Speaker 2: trust was a me thing, not a them thing, my
Speaker 2: ability to feel safe in the world. And so I
Speaker 2: think that's what I watch now. I watch who I
Speaker 2: am and how I am and how I feel, and
Speaker 2: then I go from there. I said to one of
Speaker 2: the clients in my coaching group this week. I was
Speaker 2: having a one on one chat with her and I
Speaker 2: and I said that I was I am so extremely
Speaker 2: grateful for you, because I feel like now I've popped
Speaker 2: out the other side of a long, funky, weird time
Speaker 2: that I didn't know I was in the middle of.
Speaker 2: Where I feel like my perception is you must have
Speaker 2: fucking had a shitty version of me that you would
Speaker 2: have been experiencing a lot of the time, and you
Speaker 2: obviously could see it, and for some reason that I
Speaker 2: will never understand, you just stood by and like you knew,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I don't know how you knew,
Speaker 2: but I needed someone to do that and like, wow,
Speaker 2: so thanks, but yeah, I'm still processing how I how
Speaker 2: that's all coming together for me? So good question.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I see, I mean, but it's interesting, like I
Speaker 1: see in you. I see there's a few people in
Speaker 1: my life that have struggled with stuff. I'll give her
Speaker 1: a shout out because I never do. Another lady that
Speaker 1: her name is Fi, who you know, who's who's you know?
Speaker 1: Had challenges and struggles with things. And but I see
Speaker 1: potential and I see possibility and I see like real
Speaker 1: but under the because we've all got days where we're
Speaker 1: not our best selves, right, and I'm the same. Some
Speaker 1: days I get to the end of the day and
Speaker 1: I'm like, excuse my language, doc, I can say it
Speaker 1: in front tip, but I was a count today, not
Speaker 1: all day. But I'm like, I'm better than that. But
Speaker 1: you know, I see in her, I see in you.
Speaker 1: I see in people the potential and the good. And
Speaker 1: I also sometimes I'll meet people where I'm like, there's
Speaker 1: a whole lot of darkness going on there. I don't
Speaker 1: really want to get involved, you know, but and I
Speaker 1: think my question, how did you?
Speaker 2: How did you?
Speaker 1: I don't know I know because I think this sounds weird, right,
Speaker 1: and this this is very unscientific, but science plays. Science
Speaker 1: is good with some things, but not everything right. And
Speaker 1: I intuitively instinctively know things about people that I can't explain,
Speaker 1: and I don't always get it right, but I often
Speaker 1: get it right. And I think part of that is,
Speaker 1: like I feel like I've said this before and it
Speaker 1: sounds weird, but I feel like we have an access
Speaker 1: to a kind of intelligence that we didn't really earn
Speaker 1: or deserve. And I don't know where it comes from,
Speaker 1: whether or not it's a subconscious wisdom or some kind
Speaker 1: of fucking divine insight or I don't know, but there
Speaker 1: has been many times, and I could give I could
Speaker 1: give at least a hundred examples of times in my
Speaker 1: life where I've known something that really protected me or
Speaker 1: really saved me, and nobody taught me. I never learned it.
Speaker 1: It wasn't as a result of another experience I had,
Speaker 1: you know. And I just think that I think like
Speaker 1: I I have an in sense with a lot of
Speaker 1: people about whether or not they are This sounds bad,
Speaker 1: but whether not investing time and energy in them is
Speaker 1: a good investment. And I don't mean as a potential
Speaker 1: return on investment. I just mean they're worth it. You know.
Speaker 1: I had a guy last week. I won't say his
Speaker 1: name because I don't want to embarrass him. He's in
Speaker 1: my mentoring group that just finished, and he had his
Speaker 1: one on one mentoring session with me, and there was
Speaker 1: just unfinished business and it's just like I didn't want
Speaker 1: to just go see you. So anyway, I made an
Speaker 1: arrangement with him, and he really needs help and I
Speaker 1: really don't have the time. My days are mental, and
Speaker 1: I just went fuck it, And so I made four
Speaker 1: appointments for the next four weeks with him. And I
Speaker 1: don't say this to sound good or bad. I say
Speaker 1: it just because it's relevant to this. You know, no costs,
Speaker 1: know anything, and I can't do this, you know, blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, but for everyone, of course. And he's like,
Speaker 1: why are you doing this? Like he was crying, and
Speaker 1: he goes, why are you doing this? I go, do
Speaker 1: you need help? And he goes yes. I go, well,
Speaker 1: that's why, that's it. I got it. You know. It's
Speaker 1: like it's it doesn't and I think that I'm banging on,
Speaker 1: but I think, you know, and sometimes I'm selfish, but
Speaker 1: I think you know when we talk about that, that
Speaker 1: model that I've spoken about that starts with self reflection
Speaker 1: and it's self awareness and then goes through self regulation
Speaker 1: and then self actualization and it ends up at self transcendence,
Speaker 1: which for me is like that intersection of purpose and
Speaker 1: spirituality and fulfillment and you know where because I know
Speaker 1: when I am all about me, which is very easy
Speaker 1: because I'm an only child, and I can be selfish,
Speaker 1: but I unequivocally have data that tells me the more
Speaker 1: selfish I am, the worse my life is, and the
Speaker 1: more generous I am to a point. You know, you
Speaker 1: can't be all things to all people, but the better
Speaker 1: that my life goes. So what, I don't know how
Speaker 1: the fuck we got there? What about you? DOT? What
Speaker 1: about you? And trust? And you opening? Because I feel
Speaker 1: like I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to say
Speaker 1: it because I'm in a fucking roll. I feel like
Speaker 1: you are quite reserved. I don't know how often you
Speaker 1: open the door, like even with me, and we've had
Speaker 1: a few copies and it's like we get on. Well,
Speaker 1: there's no problem. Like I like you, I think you
Speaker 1: like me. We have a good connection. But I feel like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think the door's been open opened. You know,
Speaker 1: it's been opened a bit, But I feel like with you,
Speaker 1: you're you're, there's not This is going to sound wrong
Speaker 1: because it's not in an insincere way, you know, person
Speaker 1: and persona. I think there's there's the professional public you
Speaker 1: and sometimes I just want to mess up your hair
Speaker 1: and pull back the Liian curtains. See what, I just
Speaker 1: want to mess up you, wipe off your lipstick and
Speaker 1: pull back the Liian curtain.
Speaker 3: Oh look, I don't I completely agree with that assessment,
Speaker 3: but I completely under stand why you said.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 3: I don't think I'm a different person professionally and personally. However,
Speaker 3: I do think that there's a professional stance, yes, right,
Speaker 3: also with clients.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're a clinical psychologist, so you can't get on
Speaker 1: here and a dickhead like Tiff and I.
Speaker 3: Well yeah, okay, so yes, so there is some of that,
Speaker 3: but you're right now. I am in a personal way,
Speaker 3: I am more reserved, so I don't I'm not an oversharer.
Speaker 3: I won't tell you everything up front.
Speaker 1: The opposite of the opposite of me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well maybe, yes, it's possible. Yeah, you possibly. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you're definitely more open than me. Yeah. I think trust
Speaker 3: is a thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've had.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've had people in my life and I'm not
Speaker 3: going to say major events necessarily, not like super super significant,
Speaker 3: but like if you tell everybody everything and they're not
Speaker 3: trustworthy and then they take that and they do something
Speaker 3: that you're not expecting or is hurtful or is you know,
Speaker 3: just you know, like when you've been fucked over by somebody,
Speaker 3: and it can be really small. But for me, because
Speaker 3: I'm like, if someone tells me something, I'm a vault
Speaker 3: Like that's my job too, rite like, but it's not
Speaker 3: going anywhere, like you can trust, Like the trust being
Speaker 3: trustworthy is like part of my identity. Yes, So it's
Speaker 3: hard for me to understand sometimes when other people aren't
Speaker 3: like that. And so I don't have that expectation for
Speaker 3: people to be as good at it as I am.
Speaker 3: But therefore they're not going to get as much until
Speaker 3: I do have that expectation, like until I know that
Speaker 3: they are. Yes, yes, And honestly there's probably not a
Speaker 3: lot of people that are mm, So you know, I'm
Speaker 3: probably like on the vulnerability scale, like not super high.
Speaker 3: I'm not Brene Brown, but I related to or you.
Speaker 3: But I related to what she said about vulnerability, and
Speaker 3: I agree that you that it's important. I obviously every
Speaker 3: person that comes to see me has shown vulnerability, right, yes,
Speaker 3: And so that's why I actually respect everyone that comes
Speaker 3: to see me so much, because I know the courage
Speaker 3: it takes.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, you'll being vulnerable right now. You're being
Speaker 1: vulnerable right now because you're talking about how you are
Speaker 1: and you're talking to thousands of people, So yeah, you
Speaker 1: know too. I was just thinking something then identify I
Speaker 1: can articulate this properly, but I was thinking there were
Speaker 1: times like, do you remember when you first started kind
Speaker 1: of you got on board, you know, working consistently with
Speaker 1: me as a paid gig working on Obviously you got
Speaker 1: your own business and your own show and all that,
Speaker 1: but you started working with me, and then I needed
Speaker 1: a certain commitment from you. And remember it freaked you
Speaker 1: out because you're a little bit commitment phobic. And there
Speaker 1: was a period like there was a honeymoon period and
Speaker 1: then you felt a bit like there was it got
Speaker 1: a bit messy for a while, right, and then we
Speaker 1: had a talk and it's like you were I don't know.
Speaker 1: There was a few lumps and bumps and it all
Speaker 1: sorted out. But then over time it's like you and
Speaker 1: I almost have had this almost like dad daughter relationship,
Speaker 1: right despite what other people think. Hey, everyone's never been
Speaker 1: anything right, non right, despite all the people that go,
Speaker 1: are you and if I go, no, never have been
Speaker 1: and no disrespect to tif, never will be all good? Right,
Speaker 1: more like dad and daughter that don't get on sometimes. Right.
Speaker 1: But I think I think sometimes what you did was
Speaker 1: because I think you couldn't believe that I was just
Speaker 1: there for you and I just cared about you with
Speaker 1: no agenda, and so you would push back to test it.
Speaker 1: And I could see when you're being like a momentary
Speaker 1: spoilt brat. You weren't really, but you like you were
Speaker 1: being at times a little bit of hard work, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I'm not going anywhere. You can throw
Speaker 1: your fucking toys out of the cop I'm not going anywhere. Yep,
Speaker 1: I'm still yep. You're shitting me today. You're a pain
Speaker 1: in the ass for ten minutes, but I'm still going
Speaker 1: to be here and you can try to fuck it
Speaker 1: up and you can test me and see if I'm
Speaker 1: like all the other fucking men that have let you down,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to be here. And by the way,
Speaker 1: I don't want anything. I don't want your money, don't
Speaker 1: want your body, don't want to get in your pants.
Speaker 1: It's all good, you know. And that I think because
Speaker 1: other than your dad, I don't know that you ever
Speaker 1: had or maybe your uncle as well, that you get
Speaker 1: on well with, but too many men that just didn't
Speaker 1: want anything from you in that way.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And this is a huge shift that
Speaker 2: I had in India that I resolved and feel different from.
Speaker 2: And that was identifying and verbalizing that I didn't have
Speaker 2: the ability to keep myself safe. So the trust stuff
Speaker 2: was down to me. I can't be trusted how a
Speaker 2: mate that used to always so you'd be a right
Speaker 2: you just pune anyone in the face, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: you don't get trauma, you don't get dissociation, you don't
Speaker 2: get it, because that's not what happens. So I knew
Speaker 2: that there'd been several experiences in my life where strong, independent,
Speaker 2: courageous tiff gets overtaken and by whatever happens when you
Speaker 2: have a dissociated type experience, and lets things happen. And
Speaker 2: then so I think there was that. That's that's why
Speaker 2: the wall is there. It's like, well, I can't keep
Speaker 2: myself safe because well, Craig's paying him now, and no one,
Speaker 2: no one gives anything without taking things I don't want
Speaker 2: to give. No one ever does that ever, So if
Speaker 2: he's now paying me, so our first issues arose for me.
Speaker 2: It's really, you know, like on a subconscious level, when
Speaker 2: all of a sudden you're a part of the team.
Speaker 2: We're going to give you money. You're not just giving
Speaker 2: service and leaning on me for mentoring. You're a part
Speaker 2: of the team. There's an exchange. I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm a commodity. He's buying me. What does he want?
Speaker 2: He gets to take whatever he wants.
Speaker 1: Now, Wow, yeah, that's really I think you need to
Speaker 1: chime in, Doc. We definitely need some kind of therapy
Speaker 1: quick health.
Speaker 3: I think you guys beautifully.
Speaker 2: I described to you on another conversation about after letting
Speaker 2: go of some of those things on the mountain in rituals,
Speaker 2: after doing the work in India, and then I landed
Speaker 2: in Delhi and I had twenty four hours there and
Speaker 2: long store, a long, funny story short, I agreed to
Speaker 2: go to dinner with a guy from India who was
Speaker 2: staying at the hotel, and I would never do that
Speaker 2: because a Delhi's not safe and I'm alone. My friends
Speaker 2: weren't there yet, no one knew where I was, and
Speaker 2: I was like, and I felt different because I could
Speaker 2: feel that I wasn't that same person and I knew
Speaker 2: that I was in control of the situation and I
Speaker 2: wasn't going to slip into the seven year old that
Speaker 2: just pretends something's not happening or allows things. I felt
Speaker 2: very different in the experience. So you know, eventually, when
Speaker 2: you have awareness on this stuff and you bring it
Speaker 2: to the surface and you work on things and you
Speaker 2: lean in, it changes. And that I felt like was
Speaker 2: a really profound experience and opportunity to happen so quickly
Speaker 2: to come up and go, oh, I have changed. I
Speaker 2: am safe in the world. I don't need to be
Speaker 2: the fighter that you know, like, I don't need that.
Speaker 2: I think that's why I've been the boxer, the fighter
Speaker 2: like I've got guns and I'll fucking knock you out.
Speaker 2: And I'm not an attractive female that's feminine because I
Speaker 2: don't want you to come close to me.
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, we could do this for another two hours,
Speaker 1: but we can't. But that's definitely we're going to revisit that, Lilian,
Speaker 1: How do people find you and connect with you and
Speaker 1: come and be therapized by you? If perchance you have
Speaker 1: an opening.
Speaker 3: Doctor lillianneja dot com is a good place to start.
Speaker 3: You can find me there. And some of the programs
Speaker 3: that I have, whether you want to see me a
Speaker 3: person or online through self help means, those are the
Speaker 3: those are the two. Thanks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have this awareness when I'm around you of
Speaker 1: how lilting and beautiful your voices and how mine is
Speaker 1: like fucking fingernails on a blackboard. Do you think you
Speaker 1: have that sense? Not utif, but do you It's like
Speaker 1: it's so like hypnotic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's calming.
Speaker 3: Thank you. I actually I was just asked to do
Speaker 3: like a voiceover for a big event. I've never done
Speaker 3: that before, and I was cringing. I was at the event,
Speaker 3: so I was cringing the whole time because nobody likes
Speaker 3: to hear their their own voice except crime. But yeah, no,
Speaker 3: it was really it was nice to be asked, and
Speaker 3: I appreciate the compliment. And if people like my voice.
Speaker 3: I do have a lot of mindfulness and relaxation and
Speaker 3: exercises I've recorded that you can find on Spotify if
Speaker 3: you like. If you want to learn some stress management
Speaker 3: techniques or learn how to do mindfulness practically, you can
Speaker 3: listen to my voice as much as you want.
Speaker 1: Perfect All right, well say goodbye here but for now, Doc,
Speaker 1: thank you, ti fulso, thank you, yes
Speaker 3: Thank you very much, both of you for having you