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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to The Australian's Money Positive podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: James Kirkby. Welcome afore everybody. My guest today is Jackie Clark.

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Speaker 1: She's a Charge of Accountant, a Family Office board member

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Speaker 1: and author of a very successful book, Stop Worrying About Money,

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Speaker 1: which she has reminded me to remind you, has now

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Speaker 1: won several awards since she was on the show the

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Speaker 1: last time. But she's also particularly good on investment markets

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Speaker 1: and I've wanted to talk to her particularly, and I've

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk to you particularly about crypto. Now. I

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Speaker 1: know we've had people on about crypto regularly and bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: and to some extent it's been what we say. Some

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Speaker 1: listeners have thought I've been a bit dismissive of crypto.

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Speaker 1: I haven't. I've been terribly skeptical about crypto to a

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Speaker 1: point I have to say not anymore. By that, I

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Speaker 1: mean there are things happening, particularly at the top end

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Speaker 1: of the market, particularly the world that Jackie Clark operates in,

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Speaker 1: that I think will really make you reconsider the whole

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Speaker 1: area if you haven't already about deeply.

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Speaker 2: How are you, Jackie, I'm great James on this brisk

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Speaker 2: morning brisk.

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Speaker 1: Morning, indeed brisk morning and Melbourne as well, I can

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Speaker 1: tell you that. But you know, I've been thinking something

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Speaker 1: cut my arm. I mean a few months ago. I

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Speaker 1: think the outstanding thing that I noticed was amp unlikely

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Speaker 1: perhaps of all the big institutional managers, was, as I understand,

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Speaker 1: the first fund manager to formerly buy a crypto. They

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Speaker 1: bought bitcoin. And then I saw a fascinating piece a

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Speaker 1: couple of days ago where Amazon and Walmart are talking

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Speaker 1: about issuing their own crypto coins stable coins, that is

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Speaker 1: the come convertibook two dollars. And then this morning, just

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Speaker 1: so happens, this morning, JP Morgan is launching They're all

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Speaker 1: crypto coin, and I think something really is starting to

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Speaker 1: happen inside financial markets. What tell us your review as

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Speaker 1: a conservative investor, I expect tell us your view.

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Speaker 2: Bitcoin. I don't invest in it, I don't have clients

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Speaker 2: who invest in it. I have friends, though, who chat

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Speaker 2: about it, and some who play with it. I guess

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Speaker 2: the big question with bitcoin is it's some type of

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Speaker 2: economic bubble? Is it? And people often talk about it

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Speaker 2: as the online goal, but perhaps the bit that's the

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Speaker 2: difficulty I find with it. And you know, one of

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Speaker 2: the things I talk a lot about when we discuss

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Speaker 2: things like financial literacy. My caution to people always is

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Speaker 2: doing your due diligence on the investments. So don't invest

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Speaker 2: in something you don't understand. And it is very difficult

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Speaker 2: to get to the bottom of what the bitcoin actually represents.

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Speaker 2: And so sure conscious that AMP and others, including super

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Speaker 2: funds in Australia have started to contemplate bitcoin or actually

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Speaker 2: add bitcoin to their portfolios. And is that perhaps just

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Speaker 2: a why is it a way of diversifying risk? I

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Speaker 2: don't know the answer to that, but perhaps the bigger

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Speaker 2: question is what does it really represent? And there is

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Speaker 2: some contemplation that it's considered a treasury asset, but it's

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Speaker 2: not cash and if the bitcoin price drops, your cash

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Speaker 2: has gone. Now that's not a treasury asset as far

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Speaker 2: as myself is a chartered accountant would consider. So it

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Speaker 2: represents lots of conflicts in it. Yes there is, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I know, including with the energy usage and everything else.

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Speaker 1: Sure super funds I read now have there's a billion

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Speaker 1: dollars Australia inside look self managed super funds. It our

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Speaker 1: so many people are taking I think they're just taking

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Speaker 1: a bet that the fear of missing out. That's my

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Speaker 1: gut feeling. But just looking at it a little bit

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Speaker 1: deeper as to why it may become more important because

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Speaker 1: it's becoming embedded in the financial system and the way

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Speaker 1: perhaps we might ever have imagined. I mean, first of all,

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Speaker 1: you have Trump talking about going into the strategic Reserve

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Speaker 1: in the US, which is extraordinary. He's totally pro crypto.

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Speaker 1: But more than that, when you see the majors and

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Speaker 1: when you see JP Morgan entering the market, it tells

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Speaker 1: you there's more going on than simple bitcoin betting.

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Speaker 2: Yes, perhaps it has stood the test of time. You

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Speaker 2: could argue perhaps since its introduction, it has generally increased.

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Speaker 2: Since its introduction, there is a limit apparent limit to

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Speaker 2: the supply when the system was established, which I kind

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Speaker 2: I've find fascinating as well, because with the bermin Ai,

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Speaker 2: I would expect that bitcoin per se would actually grow.

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Speaker 2: So with this limited market, I think it's one hundred

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Speaker 2: and twenty one million, so to speak, and I think

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Speaker 2: we're only at not even at twenty percent penetration yet,

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Speaker 2: is that right? We're under twenty million, I think, So

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Speaker 2: we've got a long way to go in this market

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Speaker 2: of picking up this coin for one of a better word.

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Speaker 2: So I guess there's potentially it, but it does feel

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Speaker 2: like it does feel like a bet. And if you

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Speaker 2: were looking at a portfolio spread, this would be The

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Speaker 2: people I work with won't go near it.

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Speaker 1: They will go neared state.

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Speaker 2: It isn't a case correct. Yes, So the advisors, certainly

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Speaker 2: in say Sydney Melbourne markets who look after wealth, are

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Speaker 2: not going near bitcoin. They may on request if you

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Speaker 2: say that's what I want to hold because I think

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Speaker 2: there's something in it. It's very speculative in the context

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Speaker 2: of traditional investment. You know, it's not not bricks and water.

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Speaker 1: There exceptions in the family officer, high networth.

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Speaker 2: No, only in terms of attitude, which is what it

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Speaker 2: comes down to you, doesn't it. So if you're a

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Speaker 2: betting person, if you're if you've got horses, for example,

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Speaker 2: bitcoin might be just adjacent to the racetrack.

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Speaker 1: That is. That's the skeptical view. Really, yeah, but I'm

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Speaker 1: just looking at a little bit, just taking it a

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Speaker 1: little bit more central and economic and saying, well if Amazon,

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Speaker 1: Walmart and JP Morgan in the last couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: have announced their plans to issue their version of stable coins,

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Speaker 1: which are convertible to dollars, right, So it hasn't got

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Speaker 1: that wildness to it, right, So it's pegged. And then

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Speaker 1: if they can find economies of scale or productivity gains

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Speaker 1: from that, then it is a different story, isn't it

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Speaker 1: to some expect And maybe bitcoin is just a proxy

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Speaker 1: for all this activity. But even if it is, then

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Speaker 1: it's then it becomes a different piece. Truly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's still going to be very difficult. And I

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Speaker 2: made I guess I made that almost joke about horses

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Speaker 2: and horse racing. But at least with the horse racing,

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Speaker 2: you've got a horse. I'm still unclear with bitcoin what

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Speaker 2: you've really got and what does that mean to you

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Speaker 2: in terms of value compared to me. But again, whilst

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Speaker 2: the predictions are that it will rise, the question remains

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Speaker 2: what kind of treasury or monetary asset is it? And

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Speaker 2: the worst thing about it for US individuals, us mere

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Speaker 2: individual investors is if we lose the data, if we

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Speaker 2: lose the bitcoin, it's gone. It's not like we have

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Speaker 2: a deposit in the bank and there's a balance that

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Speaker 2: says you've got one hundred dollars, it's gone. You've basically

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Speaker 2: lost it. So if you lose if you store your

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Speaker 2: data off site somewhere your bitcoin and you lose the

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Speaker 2: password or you lose the device. Yep, if you lose that,

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Speaker 2: it's gone done. So there's some perhaps risks like that

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Speaker 2: with it that people may not be considering. And someone

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Speaker 2: like Buffett is obviously famously said he's never going near bitcoin,

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Speaker 2: and he continues to support that view and look at

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Speaker 2: you can't. Not everyone agrees with him, but that's a

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Speaker 2: particular point. And I think in the context of someone

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Speaker 2: like Trump, the federal reserves in a pretty tough spot.

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Speaker 2: I think we all know, and perhaps like most things

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Speaker 2: with Trump, it's a bit of distraction.

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Speaker 1: Right you think it's a decoy from the broader issue

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Speaker 1: of US deaths, US dollars. We won't go there because

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Speaker 1: I want to take a short break. And what I

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Speaker 1: wanted to come back to is that the access to

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Speaker 1: bitcoin and crypto is changing so rapidly, and we can

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Speaker 1: go in now through ETFs and to some extent that's

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Speaker 1: commoditized collateralized. We don't have to worry really if someone

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Speaker 1: loses the key to their particular crypto holding. That's one thing.

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Speaker 1: And also when we just look at at the opportunities

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Speaker 1: across the board. We're seeing more and more people coming

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Speaker 1: in from all angles on this and we just want

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Speaker 1: to pick up on what is it? Is it gold,

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Speaker 1: is it correlated? Is it just another ascid that generally rises,

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Speaker 1: or is it non correlated? Which was the original proposal.

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Speaker 1: If you like that, you could take bitcoin and it

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Speaker 1: would serve you when traditional assets go awry. But I

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Speaker 1: wonder about that. Let's talk about that in the moment. Hello,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. James Kirby

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Speaker 1: here talking to Jackie Clark. Now, Jackie, let's just look

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Speaker 1: at the other part of this that. First of all,

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Speaker 1: you were talking about advisors don't like it, but advisors

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Speaker 1: love ETFs, and money has been pouring into crypto ETFs

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Speaker 1: and all the major ETF houses have crypto and this

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Speaker 1: gives everyone a sort of an easy way in. So

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Speaker 1: the advisor will say, look, I don't know anything about

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Speaker 1: bitcoin or those exchanges, but there is an ETF you

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Speaker 1: can use. And of course, in saying so, the ETF

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Speaker 1: takes all the boxes from a regulatory point of view.

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Speaker 1: So the advisors okay with that. The client says, well,

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Speaker 1: that's an easy way in, just like ETFs or an

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Speaker 1: easy way into everything. It's a commoditized liquid, conventional asset,

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Speaker 1: which is actually packaging and nonconventional asset. But it has changed,

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Speaker 1: hasn't it. It's taken the bitcoin and crypto play from

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Speaker 1: the margins into the very center, which brings us back

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Speaker 1: to what we said at the start of the show.

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Speaker 1: A billion dollar in SMSs, a billion dollars in crypto

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Speaker 1: in SMSFS now and key funds like AMP a sort

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Speaker 1: of an icon for all its feelings of major institutional

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Speaker 1: money in Australia. So does that change things?

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Speaker 2: Well, it doesn't change it for me. But perhaps if

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Speaker 2: there was an asset class that you didn't represent, and

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Speaker 2: perhaps that's the question that these organizations have asked themselves,

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Speaker 2: which is this an asset class that we should hold?

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Speaker 2: And there's no doubt a lot of demand for it,

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Speaker 2: and in terms of perhaps the nature of assets going forward,

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Speaker 2: this could be representative of more of the types of

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Speaker 2: assets we might have access to in the future.

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Speaker 1: What are you thinking there? What are you think of that?

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Speaker 2: Just the context for me is really about information and

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Speaker 2: how powerful access to information or data is, and it

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Speaker 2: always has been getting access to data information, so perhaps

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Speaker 2: there's something more in the marketability of that down the track.

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Speaker 2: And so this is also something that's a little bit mysterious,

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Speaker 2: is it not. And given it's had such a good

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Speaker 2: track record, I think that it will demonstrate appeal to

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Speaker 2: people because of the quick gain. I guess, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm saying, I guess because it's difficult for me to

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Speaker 2: get on board with it because I'm having trouble. Maybe

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Speaker 2: I'm materialistic and I'd like to see something from my

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Speaker 2: money other than again exactly. So yeah, still is it's

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Speaker 2: not regulated, right, so it still is pretty rough.

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Speaker 1: It's increasingly regulated, though, particularly in the world's most important

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Speaker 1: money market, which is the US. And there's two things

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking of. One is that it seemed to me

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Speaker 1: for a long time there was two types and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to generalize here dangerously. I'm sure that there was

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Speaker 1: two types of investor that were very interested in crypto

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Speaker 1: and bitcoin. There were people who actually didn't engage in

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Speaker 1: conventional markets anyway, and they saw this as a new thing,

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Speaker 1: basically a new thing that they could get an edge

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Speaker 1: in this, and they didn't actually have shares properly, but

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Speaker 1: they had bitcoin, and there was often this market were

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Speaker 1: much younger. They were online Sammy et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: But then there was another market which were very sophisticated investors,

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Speaker 1: the very top of the tree, and they wanted to

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Speaker 1: know everything about it. And they see it, they see

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Speaker 1: looting to use single names. But there are prominent investors

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Speaker 1: in our own market. There's very many problems to best

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Speaker 1: result this indus. Mark Carnegie obviously been standing I suppose

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Speaker 1: an earlier and people will say, well, look, Mark Carnegie

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Speaker 1: has got right so many times, he must know something

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Speaker 1: I don't know. So so I think this, first of all,

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Speaker 1: there's that dichotomy between who who is prepared to back

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Speaker 1: it and get involved and learn it. But what I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you is whether this idea of the

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Speaker 1: general idea that it's an alternative and so that it's

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Speaker 1: so you mentioned that the very stars the idea of

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Speaker 1: digital gold. How do you view that proposal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think there's it's got some lenks

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Speaker 2: to it in the context of it being this online asset. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and look, maybe if you're proactive with it, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's recognized as a currency that you can trade for things.

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Speaker 2: And perhaps if you were able to do that, and

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Speaker 2: that could be used in your own business model somehow

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Speaker 2: that might also have some additional value to you. But

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Speaker 2: again I think it requires then to understand that market

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Speaker 2: really well and recognize where you can trade the bigcoin

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Speaker 2: and what for? And does that is that all value

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Speaker 2: to you? Because quite? I mean if you can have

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Speaker 2: a product or an asset that growsing value quickly and

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Speaker 2: you can offload it quickly for something else, then I

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Speaker 2: see some benefit in that, which perhaps is where someone

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Speaker 2: like Mark can tubby.

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Speaker 1: Do you see it as a correlated asset? And folks,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure just to make that clear, what we're saying

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Speaker 1: is the jury is still out. It seems above bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's established now, it's an acid class. I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's going to go. I think we assume

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Speaker 1: that it's got for our lifetime. It's going to be here.

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Speaker 1: It's been severely tested in many ways. It survived all

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Speaker 1: those tests. So let's take that on put that on

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Speaker 1: the table. But then the issue is whether it's digital goal.

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Speaker 1: And if it is, that would mean that basically, if

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Speaker 1: markets crumbled, if currencies in the US dollar classic case,

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Speaker 1: that the US dollar in ten years time is a

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Speaker 1: sad reflection of what it is was ten years ago

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Speaker 1: to say or and in that context, then the proposal

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Speaker 1: is that bitcom will stand alone, basically that it will

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Speaker 1: be like gold, it will be they will win. That's one.

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Speaker 1: That's the non correlated asset argument. And then the outariasive

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Speaker 1: argument is it's just becoming. It's just another asset. And

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Speaker 1: if the markets are good, it's good. The markets are bad,

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Speaker 1: it's bad. We haven't got a sufficient track record have

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Speaker 1: we really to test that? So it's simply live debate.

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Speaker 1: Where are you on that one, Jackie?

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Speaker 2: I guess only a bit what's been fifteen years, It's

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Speaker 2: been around four now, so there's not a lot of

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Speaker 2: evidence that it's very short periods.

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Speaker 1: But it's part sufficient volume and interest to we even

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Speaker 1: stand as some sort of proxy with gold.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, I find it fascinating with the market

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Speaker 2: to how some things don't always hold value like they should,

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Speaker 2: even when they've got brilliant balance sheets. It's just that

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Speaker 2: can humor sentiment where people are at and it might

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Speaker 2: be the same with bitcoin. But there's still I guess

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Speaker 2: a lot of growth potential in bitcoin. And if in

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Speaker 2: fifteen years we're at under twenty percent takeup of what's

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Speaker 2: available there. It's got a long way to go from

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Speaker 2: growth potential in terms of accessibility, and so perhaps it

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Speaker 2: will become more normal and I think, as you say,

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Speaker 2: with the likes of amp, Walmart and Superinneation, fun State

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Speaker 2: starting to pick it up or recognize it as an asset,

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Speaker 2: that maybe helps normalize the mystery a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But I'm not.

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Speaker 2: Any clearer that the mystery has shifted, and so does

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Speaker 2: it move with the markets. I don't know. There's a

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Speaker 2: whole lot of evidence that it has at the moment.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of you're seeing there's lack of evidence

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Speaker 1: that it's correlated. Correct, So you're suggesting this non correlated

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Speaker 1: well implication.

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Speaker 2: It's yes, that's how I would see it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's interesting, right, Okay, So since we're talking about

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Speaker 1: that and the markets, it seems to me obviously here

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Speaker 1: we are at the end of just to switch gears

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Speaker 1: for a moment and bring us back into a conventional,

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Speaker 1: traditional space where we are more sure. Yes, well, value,

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Speaker 1: that's what you're looking for, isn't this. You don't like

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Speaker 1: the fact that there's no intrinsic value there isn't it

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Speaker 1: really for me?

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Speaker 2: That's right? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. It's very hard to be

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Speaker 2: a nausey and say any other way.

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Speaker 1: Actually, well gold, I mean, what's the intrinsic value of gold?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean that's a genuine mineral, isn't it gold?

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Speaker 1: Okay, but it gets it gets a down high price

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Speaker 1: for a genuine mineral.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't Yes, yeah it does. It's done really well. But

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Speaker 2: I probably won't be going there either.

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Speaker 1: Okay, very good. So just on the market. It's what

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Speaker 1: I have you because you have a finger of so

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Speaker 1: many pies, fingers, so many pies. I'd like to just

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Speaker 1: see where you're coming from in that. Our market here

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Speaker 1: we are right coming to the end of the financial year,

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Speaker 1: shares a up eleven percent, the average balanced super funders

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Speaker 1: out thereat point five percent. How on earth this wasn't

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Speaker 1: supposed to happen with the market? Is our market is

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Speaker 1: now a point where the most positive forecast at the

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Speaker 1: start of the year said it might reach by December.

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Speaker 1: What's your view on the share markets?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good time. It's a really good time

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Speaker 2: to have this conversation. It's there's a broadly positive view

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Speaker 2: of the market now we are in an unusual spot.

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Speaker 2: The tariffs aren't settled and our bow needs to get

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Speaker 2: his meeting.

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Speaker 1: At some point.

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Speaker 2: But perhaps we're a little fish in a big.

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Speaker 1: Sea enough priority.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so there's definitely some positives that we have and

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Speaker 2: perhaps the Reserve Bank has certainly now got some genuine

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Speaker 2: sort of firepower. The RBA is in a good spot,

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Speaker 2: and I think with the disruption, if you like, between

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Speaker 2: the US and China, Australia generally will benefit from that

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Speaker 2: tariff war, if you like, because people will start will

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Speaker 2: be the beneficiary of that.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a bit bit more as to how.

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Speaker 2: Just in terms of the way trade will work, we

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Speaker 2: will be saying as probably easy pickings as a partner

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Speaker 2: in that respect. Yeah, and perhaps, like I say, it's

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Speaker 2: a bit of a distraction, we're a bit easier to

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Speaker 2: deal with in the context of those tariffs, so we

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Speaker 2: simply should benefit and that would come down to what

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Speaker 2: items we're trading with each party. But I think we

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Speaker 2: benefit from that, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that to some extent that depends the

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Speaker 1: buoyancy in the ESX.

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Speaker 2: I think that's definitely out there. But perhaps the other

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Speaker 2: option is that if money leaves the US, it might come,

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Speaker 2: it might find its way here. Now there's two reasons

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Speaker 2: why you invest in Australia. We have a fairly narrow band,

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Speaker 2: which is really banking and resources. But that's a good

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Speaker 2: reason perhaps to have your money leaves, for example, the

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Speaker 2: US and come to Australia. So that could be an

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Speaker 2: upside benefit of.

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Speaker 1: With the US institutions are buying come bank at a

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Speaker 1: one hundred eighty.

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Speaker 2: Dollars would be one of the reasons. Yeah, So that's

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Speaker 2: something that I think would be appealing for people to

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Speaker 2: come to Australia. But typically when I think about sort

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Speaker 2: of revenue sources, most Aussie companies have a lot of

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Speaker 2: domestic revenue as well less overseas revenue. So perhaps we're isolated.

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Speaker 2: So we have it's so like the pros and the

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Speaker 2: cons of being isolated this.

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Speaker 1: Time or this sort of til it's.

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Speaker 2: Almost independence in its own way.

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Speaker 1: The banks are domestic, aren't there.

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Speaker 2: They are.

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Speaker 1: Domestic focus.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So if you were looking that's right and narrow

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Speaker 2: your investment focused or isolate impact of particular things such

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Speaker 2: as US China tariff arrangements, then that's something you can

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Speaker 2: do through an Australian asset so, so there could be

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Speaker 2: some upside from that for Australia. But we're in a

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Speaker 2: pretty good spot right now with the RBA, and I

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Speaker 2: believe that the China and the US wherever that conversation goes,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure it's going somewhere that neither you know, China

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Speaker 2: won't be happy with. Then they'll respond accordingly, but might

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Speaker 2: have a slightly deflationary impact as well, which again is

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Speaker 2: good for US. So I think that strengthens the RBA's

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Speaker 2: position as well. So yeah, so, I mean it's all

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Speaker 2: it seems generally good, and that's in the absence of

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Speaker 2: anything more serious happening on the world front.

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Speaker 1: I know it's a tough question, but it doesn't five

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Speaker 1: founded or so markets up eleven percent over twelve months,

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Speaker 1: it's up four percent for the year, and we get

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Speaker 1: four and a half. It's up four and a half

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Speaker 1: for six months. I should say, you know for the year.

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Speaker 1: The calendar of today's checking your four percent evidence, les's

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Speaker 1: three eight percent already. If you stopped right now, selling

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Speaker 1: mayn't go away. I know it's tuning, but do you

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Speaker 1: think this is as good as it gets? Is the

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Speaker 1: room for for are?

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Speaker 2: You know there's no crystal ball that can respond right now.

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Speaker 2: There's too many sort of geopolitical matters occurring that could

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Speaker 2: have any number of impacts. So it's just very hard

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Speaker 2: I think for anybody like it always is.

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Speaker 1: Really it sounds like you're not you're certainly not saying

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Speaker 1: this market is this market's want too fast or anything

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Speaker 1: like that.

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Speaker 2: No, No, because there's evidence that there's wind in it

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Speaker 2: or puff in it, wan, a bit of puff in it.

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Speaker 1: Actually the wind is behind it. Perhaps, is that perhaps

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Speaker 1: where we're coming from as.

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Speaker 2: Opposed to we will it's not a wet sile put

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Speaker 2: it that way.

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Speaker 1: Okay, very interesting. I've got really good questions this week, folks.

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Speaker 1: I've selected some absolute corkers, I think, and I want

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Speaker 1: to have Jackie on board when I'm dealing with them,

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Speaker 1: and we will be back in the board. Hello, Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to The Australian's Money Pustle podcast, James Kirky with

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Speaker 1: Jackie Clark. Who is, may I say, a chartered accountant,

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Speaker 1: she's a tax advisor. She's a member of the Institute

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Speaker 1: of Company Director, she's an author. She's a board member

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Speaker 1: on some very interesting private family office boets. Hence the

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Speaker 1: sophisticated view on the market. Okay, quickly, Ryan, who actually, Ryan,

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Speaker 1: We're not dealing in any great detail with your question,

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Speaker 1: but you actually kicked off the whole concept of today's

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Speaker 1: show about bitcoin. Ryan had originally asked he had basically

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Speaker 1: met the point that the price some of the crypto

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Speaker 1: related investments were going so well. He told that he

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Speaker 1: couldn't believe that the money puzzle hadn't covered it yet.

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Speaker 1: So hopefully we've met a start Ryan, on that of

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Speaker 1: what I would call the post Trump crypto reality, which

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Speaker 1: is quite different I think than the pre Trump crypto scene. Okay,

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Speaker 1: and asks your article in the Australian, which was by

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Speaker 1: the way, the seventh of June says industry funds pulled money,

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Speaker 1: but all investors taxed in the same way. This was

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Speaker 1: my piece where I was just saying that the nature

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Speaker 1: of industry funds and how they are, how it all works,

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Speaker 1: is that the tax is polled. Consequently, folks on the

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Speaker 1: new supertax, that polling of requirements, tax requirements. I mean,

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Speaker 1: some people are going to be better off in big

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Speaker 1: industry funds simply the older ones with lots of money

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Speaker 1: will in some way cross subsidized the younger ones who

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Speaker 1: are in the same fund. This is a particular issue

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Speaker 1: for funds where there is a lot of older, wealthier members,

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Speaker 1: and we actually had a list of the top ten

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Speaker 1: funds with the most exposure. My broader point on all

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Speaker 1: that is that no one escapes this fund. No one

434
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: escapes this tax Division two ninety six because it's a

435
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: new At face value, it's a simple fifteen percent tax

436
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: that's a new one on top of the original taxes

437
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: and super it only affects people with more than three million. However,

438
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: in reality it's going to infect a help a lot

439
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: more people than that because it's on realized games, which

440
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: is just completely daft I think as a way to

441
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: tax people as personally and Treasure shows no sign of

442
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: changing on that, and more importantly, is not prepared to

443
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 1: index it, and that means a lot of people are

444
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 1: going to get caught in it very quickly as the

445
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: years go by and people say, oh, you are scare mongering.

446
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: These always get indexed, No, they don't. The sophisticated investor,

447
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: for instance, requirements are unchanged for twenty years. Division two

448
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: ninety three tax, which is another super tax on high

449
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: salary earners is unchanged. I think it's for twelve years.

450
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: There's no rules about this. I just wanted to that

451
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: also stem there jacking. Is there anything else anything you

452
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: want to add to that?

453
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 2: No, probably just to answer question. I know that just

454
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: in terms of calculating it and understanding how to work

455
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: through it yourself, to get your head around it and

456
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 2: how members in big funds might be impacted. The Association

457
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: of Superannuation Funds of Australia has given quite a bit

458
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 2: of guidance on the impact of Section two ninety six

459
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 2: and I've had look at the different calculations they're provided.

460
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 2: They're quite helpful instead of explaining this, but I think

461
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 2: you hit the nail on the head with your article actually,

462
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 2: you know, indicating how assets are pulled for the benefit

463
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: of all members. But actually even the administration of this,

464
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 2: all the costs of this will actually fall on the

465
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 2: weight of all members of super funds to some extent

466
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 2: to the end of the day additional compliance any organization has,

467
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: somebody has to pay for that.

468
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 1: So when i's to be for it exactly, and I

469
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: think you know, I hope you know you know. And

470
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: one of the things you did mention was that you

471
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 1: know is had nothing to do with with two net

472
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: six most but in fact it permeates it. It does

473
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: perculate right through the system. I hope I've met that

474
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: clear and as sincerely mean it.

475
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: That's the other thing just add to that giant is

476
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: I think I've determined what something like half a million

477
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 2: salaried employers around Australia are actually impacted by.

478
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: The super immediately.

479
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: It's quite substantial. Yeah, immediately, and I will baying big

480
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: fans I were all being self managed fans by a

481
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: long shot.

482
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is a key point I was making

483
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: that it was aimed at self managed superinvestors without a doubt.

484
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: But it is the nature of it, this construction of

485
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 1: onrealized gains and then the nature of how big super

486
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: funds work mean they are pulled into it. They are

487
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: complaining much, but I better complaining behind the scenes. Okay, Andrew.

488
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: Interesting question from Andrew. Great question Andrew. He says it

489
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: would be good to talk about the virgin IPO later

490
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: this month and so detail and to compare it with

491
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: other recent large years, and to discuss the impact on Quantus,

492
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: which has touched eleven dollars and it's paying dividends for

493
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: the first time in years. Okay, Marvel's question so interesting

494
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: the virgin ipo. This is what I think about the

495
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: virgin ipeo in three numbers. It's listed at two fifty

496
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: the first time, and when it was taken off the

497
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: boards it was nine cents. It's coming back at two

498
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: ninety three after that. It's a question of this. I

499
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: have no idea what you think of it watching.

500
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: My Headshine, which the listeners, well, well, I think the

501
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,959
Speaker 2: first thing pats for Andrew is I don't think it

502
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: was a retailer. For it all only to holdstyle investors.

503
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: So it's it's all being taken up for starters.

504
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,479
Speaker 1: It's a tiny it's a tiny amount, which is right.

505
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: I won't say a trick, but the mathematics of when

506
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: you float a tiny amount of stock, it's not to

507
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: waye about it. The price gets supported easier, let's be

508
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: yea yeah.

509
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: So Baying came in with evaluation two dollars ninety and

510
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 2: morning Star came in with evaluation at two dollars sixty.

511
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 2: So perhaps that's an indication of where things might head.

512
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: But you know, the question is it is a they've

513
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: taken advantage perhaps at the time, so it is relatively buoyant.

514
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 2: If you look at the trends coming out of the

515
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 2: COVID era and you look at all the statistics on

516
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: Australian travelers, there's definitely been a rise. I think we've

517
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 2: pretty much met, if not exceeded, there's sort of pre

518
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: pandemic times of travel. So it is the right time,

519
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: is it opportunistic? So have they taken advantage of that?

520
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 2: I'd be interested to see, mind you, if the implications

521
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: of Israel, Iran, Ukraine and so on may start to

522
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: have the reverse impact on the airline world as well

523
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: all people, perhaps because I'm feeling less inclined to travel

524
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 2: as a result of what's going on, because it's pretty

525
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 2: hard to avoid the Middle East when you fly out

526
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: of Australia. Yes, exactly.

527
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: They have to go around to Ukraine. They have to.

528
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so look, and that may be a small thing

529
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: in the scheme of just having to get around the world.

530
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 2: We've all got family to visit, paper all things.

531
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: Happen, I mean, yeah, I mean more pointedly, the history

532
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: of the Second Airline in Australia is woeful. And I'm

533
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: sure these are great people. I'm sure they've got it

534
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: in a great shape. I don't doubt for a moment

535
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: they've optimized their moment and their numbers for the float

536
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: goes without saying, here's the thing. Answer collapsed, Virgin Mark

537
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: one collapsed. Brokers not brokers. To be fair, researchers Morning

538
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: Star are already saying this, this float is too high.

539
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. I would agree with that, and we've got to

540
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: meet a bit careful. Yeah, well I can't. Sorry, I

541
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: can't see how you can because it may may have

542
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 2: been at its peak.

543
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: Okay, very good, we will leave it right there, Andrew,

544
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: I think the answer is very clear. None of this

545
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: is investment advice ever. It's information only, and I'm sure

546
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: you all know that. Okay, final question, fam Sam, as

547
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: I said in really good questions today, I was hoping

548
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: you can explain to me how I can deal with

549
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: the suspended trading stock in my portfolio.

550
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: It's actually a great question to have. If he mentioned this.

551
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: One, there's no point actually naming it because there's plenty

552
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: of them out there. There's a whole part of zombie stocks.

553
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: And he says it's been suspended for years. My money,

554
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: you're stuck in this. I can't sell it. What are

555
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:12,719
Speaker 1: my options.

556
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: This is really frustrating if you've ever been this position

557
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: with suspended training stock, because you can't take crystallize the

558
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 2: capital loss from a tax perspective until it's actually liquidated.

559
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: And so there is a small little opportunity. There's a

560
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 2: these be a company which I think still exists called

561
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: the listed dot com dot au. You can go on

562
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 2: to that website and see getting up to date read

563
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: on what's happening with the company. You might be able

564
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: to take that information to your accountant to determine whether

565
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 2: it's realistic that you can actually take that crystalize. You

566
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: can crystallize that capital loss from a tax perspective, so

567
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: that might be the thing to do. Obviously you need

568
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: to continually review it. But it's very frustrating. It does

569
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: happen often.

570
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: How does it work. Does it run to zero obesity

571
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: or a zero point one center or something?

572
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 2: Oh sorry, when they're suspended your main yeah?

573
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: Or is it valued at the amount that was suspended.

574
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I wouldn't know that. I'd have

575
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: to look at each individual case actually to work that out,

576
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 2: and you can obviously the conservative approach is whatever they

577
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: close that you could take a loss to that level

578
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 2: and then do a subsequent loss, you know, take a

579
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: reasonably arguable position, which is what the Australian tax officers

580
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: would be looking for in the situation. But technically, until

581
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 2: it's actually in liquidation or formally wound up, you actually

582
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 2: can't do anything. It's very annoying so here, but you

583
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: could at least do some research.

584
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: You have value and possibly possible in there, especially if

585
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,479
Speaker 1: it was the nineteenth of June and you had two

586
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: weeks to go try and find so and I hear

587
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: that the markets up eleven percent.

588
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 2: People may be doing to find.

589
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: As usual one maybe, yeah, especially with our market. Yes, yeah, yeah,

590
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: Well it's a good time so we're able to say

591
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: that terrific. Hey, look, thank you very much, Jackie. Great

592
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: have you on the show again.

593
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 2: Good to be here, James, thank you.

594
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: And the book Stop worrying about money, which you somehow

595
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: manage time to rise on top of everything else. You've

596
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: won a couple of awards for it, a.

597
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: Few international awards. It's been incredible. Actually. The last one

598
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 2: was the Money Awareness and Inclusion Award Program, which is

599
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: a global awards program, so forty five countries participating. They

600
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: announced it out of Singapore about a month ago, which

601
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: is wonderful.

602
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: Are you shipping vast quantities out around the world now?

603
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 2: Of course maybe Amazon is, I'm not.

604
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: It is the royalty checks from financial books. We've had

605
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: some fun with those on the show before. Let's see

606
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: that you couldn't live on. Not worth the conversation, barely

607
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: relevant in your tax returns. All right, very good. Thanks

608
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: for a lot, Jackie Clark. Great to have you on

609
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: the show. We're talking again soon. Thanks James, and thank

610
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: you everybody. And great question today. Keep them rolling the

611
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: money puzzle at the Australian dot com dot a talk

612
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 1: to yourself Sam the Room sub