WEBVTT - Bonus episode - Updates and an Interview 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:14.040 Hi, This is Dan and first up, I just wanted 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:17.480 to say thank you, seriously thank you to those people 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:21.040 who have come forward since we released those last few 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:25.640 episodes of this series. Just on the back of those 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.120 people who've contacted us with their tips, we have broken 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:34.879 new news stories about this case. One of those is 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:37.559 someone who's come forward and said that a second person 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:42.680 told them that Frank Abbot's brother, Bluie, claimed that Frank 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:46.640 was involved in what happened to William. I also spoke 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.120 to a former prisoner who got in touch to say 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.880 that he had met Frank Abbot inside prison and Frank 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.680 had given him a detailed account of what happened to William, 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:01.160 and that this former prisoner tried to tell detectives that 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.240 he spoke to David Laidlaw, who's running the investigation, only 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:09.320 to be told that they still think William's foster mother 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:14.759 is allegedly responsible, and that the police didn't follow up 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.399 with this prisoner about what he said he'd heard. Now, 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.240 of course, both William's foster mum and Frank Abbott have 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.960 denied any involvement in what took place on that day, 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:31.440 twelfth of September twenty fourteen, and I'm not saying that 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.360 these new allegations are true, just saying that they have 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:38.039 been made and they have not been followed up by 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:42.080 the police. We've also written another story saying the coroner 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.920 who's running the inquest into William's disappearance has now said 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:51.840 they will consider new evidence if it's provided to them 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.320 by the police, and you can read all that reporting 0:01:55.440 --> 0:02:00.320 at news dot com dot au. But we also know 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:06.560 that this story isn't over. And more importantly, we know 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:11.800 that this story is not about us, but it's about William, 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:16.600 and it's also now about Helen and Margaret and Sherry 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:22.440 Lee and those people closest to them. But some people 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:26.760 have also got in touch with us recently asking how 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:30.600 Nina and I are doing, especially after the last episode, 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.080 where I think you can hear that all this work 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:38.080 has had an effect on us. So what we're going 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:40.919 to do now is we're going to play the audio 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.480 of an interview that Nina and I took part in 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.160 just before the release of those last four episodes in 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:51.720 this series. It's from another podcast called Something to Talk About, 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:57.640 hosted by Sarah Lemarquand, and we're including it here because 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:01.600 it lifts the curtains a bit on making this series 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.120 and it does give you a sense of what it 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:09.560 takes to do that and what it takes out of 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:14.520 you when you end up doing an investigation like this. 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.160 Dan Box and Nina Young, Welcome to the Stellar podcast. 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:26.880 Thank you. 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:30.400 I know you're very familiar with how podcasts work, are 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.080 pretty much more so than anyone else in Australia. But 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.880 first time here, and of course just full disclosure to 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.680 our listeners right up front. We all work together, yep. 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.280 But before anyone thinks that they're about to watch or 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:47.360 listen or read to an editorial meeting, Okay, that might 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.840 be true, but an editorial meeting with two of the 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.920 top investigative journalists in the country, the brilliant duo behind 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:59.840 Witness William Tyrrel, which launched last year last October, went 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:04.400 straight to number one on the Australian podcast charts, millions 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:07.680 and millions of downloads since, and is about to return 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:12.200 with four new episodes that will reveal new information that 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:16.880 could take the investigation in a whole new direction. So 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.240 if that's an editorial meeting, let's get on with it. 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.560 Let's call Ahara and invite Australia to come and join this. 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:26.720 William Terrell, of course, being the three year old boy 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.720 who disappeared from his grandmother's garden in twenty fourteen. He's 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.400 never been found. The disappearance has been one of the 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:37.800 most talked about cases in the country. For months now. 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:41.000 You have been working on these new episodes that will 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:44.320 be dropping from tomorrow. You've spoken to everyone who's been 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:48.839 involved in the case, including William's biological family, his cares, 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:55.160 and former homicide detective Gary Jubilan Dan. I'll start with you. 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.560 You are a Walkley Award winning journalist who's broken hundreds 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.360 of stories across the court of your career, both in 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.880 the UK and here in Australia. Can you tell me 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:09.760 what first drew your attention to the William Tyrell disappearance 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.080 and your first involvement in investigating this case. 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.279 I was one of the few reporters who covered the 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:19.360 immediate after Martha William's disappearance, so that's going back ten 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:24.000 years now. I wasn't there the day after, but I 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.920 think I was there within days working on the story. 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:31.920 And I remember I've covered a lot of murders and 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:36.479 you get kind of hardened to it. They don't bother 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.719 you anymore, but this one. I remember one occasion I 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.680 was up on Bellerom Drive, which is the road that 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:46.000 William was last seen on, and the detective who was 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:48.200 leading the investigation at the time was talking me through 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:52.560 their theory then that William may have run down this 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.440 grass bank from the house to the road, and that 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:58.600 maybe someone had been on that road and that person 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:02.800 had taken William. And I had a three year old 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:05.080 at home, so the same age as William to within 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:08.720 a couple of months, I think, And because of that, 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.080 I could picture a three year old and how they move, 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.000 you know, that slightly wonky, slightly funky way of moving. 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.960 I could picture my three year old running down that 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:25.000 slope to the person on the road, and it troubled 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:27.159 me in a way I don't think any other case 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:31.599 has troubled me. And I've stayed with it in different 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:33.880 ways and in different forms, reporting on it in the 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:39.440 ten years since. And I think part of the reason 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:41.560 to come back to it and look at it in 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.080 the way we have done now, and Nina and I 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.680 have been working on this for two and a bit 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.520 years now. This is part of the reason I was 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:51.159 grateful for the invitation to come and talk to you, 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:54.080 because I know normally this podcast is about talking to 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.960 celebrities and about with that world of celebrity. But of 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.080 all the murders that I've covered, I think maybe there 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:05.000 are a few other murders in Australia that have that 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:08.559 element of almost celebrity to it. Not the good things 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:13.920 about celebrity, but the vast amount of media attention. I've 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:20.080 literally seen paparazzi car chases pursuing witnesses. I've actually been 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:24.280 involved in one of them. The people trawling through the 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:28.000 untold details of other people's lives, lives that are just 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.440 kind of held up to the examination of the media 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.280 gaze and kind of ripped apart all that element of celebrity. 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.480 The William Tiole case has and has been kind of 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.840 distorted by it, and now I don't think, like maybe 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.280 with a lot of celebrities, what people think is the 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:48.520 truth and what actually is the truth of completely different things. 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:51.440 So that that's why we came back to it. 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.320 Nina, What about for you, because you have, over the 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.920 course of your journalism career, tell our audience a little 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.640 bit about that idea, and as Dan has explained, this 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:07.120 story that has genuinely captivated an entire nation, and then 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:11.600 from that moment bringing something like witness to fruition. 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:14.840 Yeah. So Dan, I think started at a company about 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.720 two years ago. We met a Yeah. Yeah, the day 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.120 he came in, we had a meeting and I was like, Hi, 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.920 I'm Nina. I've heard you're doing a William terryl podcast 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:25.520 and I would like to work on it because I 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:30.360 don't do small talk. Sarah Noely, Hello, I'm going to 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.080 work with you. I don't think I anticipated at that 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.200 point or could have the amount of work that we 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:37.959 were actually going to be pouring into this thing, or 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.480 that would be working on it two years later, but 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:44.840 we did get straight to work. A lot of that 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:49.160 work is sort of quiet background filing, the amount of 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:50.280 filing this guy does. 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:56.320 We've got a timeline, so a list of events like 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:58.960 bullet points, this happened, then that happened, then that happened, 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:02.800 then that happened. I think it's actually about a quarter 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.560 of a million words now, so it's the length of 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.600 two and a bit books, and that's just our kind 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:13.440 of main reference document. But you know the amount of 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:16.320 work that Nina's done, We wouldn't be here now talking 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.880 about these new episodes because I thought we'd finished this 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.600 series last year, and if I used to tell Nina 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:23.480 that I was taking the whole of this year off. 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:26.600 But at the end of the last year, Nina went 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.079 off on this kind of side investigation, which I kind 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:31.520 of just. 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:33.719 Kept going, like, I'll talk to you about it. 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:38.040 And we finished the series last year. I thought that 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:39.720 was the end of the Nina said, right now, you 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.160 have to sit down and I'll tell you what I've got. 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.439 And I remember, the feeling is almost this sinking feeling 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:47.640 of Okay, there's so much more to do. 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:52.280 So that whole year off, which, by the ways, first I've. 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.480 Heard about this as a manager. 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.800 But we'll talk about we'll talk about that offline that 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:02.560 you knew then that you had to go back coming 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:09.160 into the first series. What were the biggest questions for 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.680 each of you that you initially wanted to explore. What 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:15.880 of all of the questions that people were asking, do 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:20.760 you think that appetite for answers was the strongest for Nina. 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:25.920 I think there was so much mystery surrounding this case, 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.000 and despite what had been fed to the media, there 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:33.080 weren't really any details to it. So we knew that 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.520 the police were looking at Williams foster mother as a 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:41.360 potential person of interest or a suspect, but they didn't 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.040 really say why, and they didn't say why they were 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:46.520 looking at her rather than looking at other persons of 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.760 interests that had been raised previously in the investigation. I 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.200 think that's the biggest focus that people had when we 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:54.640 first started this investigation. 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.400 Yeah, for me, it was that that kind of gulf 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:04.000 between mean, what people thought they knew because of what 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:09.840 had been in the media, and what actually the truth was. 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:12.840 But there was another element to it for me, which 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.160 was because I'd been reporting on this in different ways 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.800 for newspapers. I did a couple of books that touched 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.120 on this. I knew a lot of the people involved 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.040 in the case and the investigation, and I had a 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:27.480 sense of how many lives had been caught up and 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:31.320 damaged not just by William going missing, but by the 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:35.240 police investigation that followed. So, you know, obviously you had 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.560 the families, the biological and the Foster family, but you 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.480 had different witnesses who'd been held up by the police 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:48.400 to media and court scrutiny, and their lives had just crumbled, 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:51.280 and then the police and the media had moved on 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.319 to the next person, and then each time there was 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:59.320 this kind of human wreckage left behind, and I I 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.679 wanted to put the focus back a little bit on 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.240 those lives as well, the lives that have been damaged 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:10.840 because of this attempt to find this child, which still 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:12.560 hasn't been successful. 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.120 Let me ask you both a little bit about that, 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.480 the motivation for doing the work that you do, because 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:22.760 it's obviously this particular case, and then of course the 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:25.439 other stories that you've investigated over the course of your 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.959 respective careers. The material is it's extremely dark, it's confronting. 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:35.120 You are working through details that obviously there are other 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.880 people in other professions that we as a society think. 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.520 I don't know how I could be exposed to all 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.360 of that and then go home and live a quote 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:49.560 unquote normal life. Is that what has motivated each of you? 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.280 Nina is As Dan spoke, he had that human connection 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:56.240 as a parent, which I think resonated with a lot 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:58.320 of people. I know. For me, my son was the 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.480 same age as William, and I remember one day there 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:03.840 was a copy of the Daily Telegraph on the living 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.840 room table and Logan was in his Spider Man suit 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.880 and he said to me, Mummy, is that me? And 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.240 I'm just sorry, I just wanted to share that money 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:15.640 down when you spoke about it. Obviously, we know as 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.520 journalists we don't need those personal connections to stories, but 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.079 when they do happen, you know that's also tapping into 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:26.080 something that other people are feeling. Nina, sorry, I've aston 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:28.840 answered that question. How obnoxious off me? I really want 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:29.880 to hear your answer. 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:36.079 Yeah, obviously any parent in Australia can look at William's 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.880 face and see that connection and sort of no, instinctively, 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:42.360 how horrible that feeling would be a lot to lose 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:47.160 your child. But I also kind of connected with the 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:51.400 idea of there's all these potentially innocent people that have 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:53.920 been held up a suspects, that who have had their 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:57.160 lives ruined. I mean that could happen to literally anyone. 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:00.280 You could just be going about your day, you could 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:02.960 be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:07.600 I kind of went really naively into this investigation, going 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:12.040 if the police are pursuing this woman so strongly, this. 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:13.160 Is William's foster mom. 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.520 Yeah, yep, of course they have something. 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:19.120 I thought that too when it was on the front page. 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.840 And the fact that we've come through the inquest with 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:26.760 no eyewitness evidence, no forensic evidence, no evidence that has 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.720 really been presented, I'm not happy with that. And so 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.920 I do feel like I'm driven by wanting to hold 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:36.240 people accountable for. 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:40.560 The damage done to those lives by the police decision 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.680 to focus on those people. And it's not just the people. 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.360 It goes back to children again, and so it's not 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.000 just the people you see on the front pages or 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:52.440 the TVs. It's their families and those ripples just spread out. 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:58.120 It's so true, isn't At every headline there's thousands of people, 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:02.640 entire communities, entire families that are behind that, and then 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.960 the story moves on, but their lives remained. And that's 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.320 before we even get into the whole social media I 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:12.359 think where everyone Obviously there's a lot of self appointed 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:15.600 detectives out there of course with true crime as well, 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.320 so people then becoming vigilantes and feeling that they can. 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:23.440 Keep the case just on that. And sorry to interrupt, 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:29.200 when we started this reporting, because we were reporting that 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.920 maybe the police hadn't got it right, or we at 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:36.000 least investigate in the possibility the police might not have 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.480 it right about William's foster mum. I knew there were 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.400 whole communities out there online who very much thought the 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:44.880 police were in the right, and I knew they weren't 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.640 going to like this, and so talk to Nina about it, 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.680 about the possibility for online abuse, social media abuse, and 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:53.600 it came in, and it came in much quicker than 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:54.080 I expect. 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.160 Yeah, he had the chat with me one day and 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:58.400 just said, look, I'm only going to bring it. Don't 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:00.240 look at this stuff, and I'm not going to look 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.800 at the stuff, but I've told someone to flag if 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:04.680 your name comes into it, and also if there are 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.560 credible threats to come up. It was the next day 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:10.040 that's already it happened. 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:12.480 We had to talk to the company about it, just 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:16.720 to let them know it's not just me, it's everyone 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:18.920 who's worked on this project, their names on it. So 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.080 there's a potential for all of those people to be 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.000 chased out. And I didn't mind if they were just 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.760 having a pop at me. I kind of expected it, 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.760 but it wasn't okay for them to go after other people. 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:30.520 And I have seen some of the stuff that's been 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:34.600 said since and that element to it, that kind of 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.440 modern element of media celebrity that's really ugly. 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.600 Yeah, people have tried to message me on Instagram. There 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.560 was at one stage somebody rang the company here and 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.720 said that I'd tried to call them and they had 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.280 forgotten my phone number and asked the reception to give 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.000 them my phone number. And I know it was the 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.120 same person because they'd come through your email and Instagram 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.360 as well. So yeah, it's it's a whole new world 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:00.240 now that we have social media involved as well. 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:02.680 And what people seem to be happy to do on 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:06.800 social media is be worse towards women. I think the 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:08.919 kind of things people have said about me, some of 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:13.359 which is laughable, it's actually quite funny, some of which 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:14.520 is really nasty. 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.879 There definitely is a toxicity I think that is reserved, 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:20.560 particularly for women. 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:22.200 Yeah, I was not surprised by. 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.880 This, definitely not surprising. But even when you are prepared, 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.359 and even when you have, as you say, somebody like 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.359 down warning you, and then the next day it's happening, Yeah, 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.359 you can be prepared, and then of course there's the 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.040 reality and you're talking, Nina about people trying to get 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.600 hold of your phone number. Anyone that's been in that 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:43.040 situation would understand that feeling that, well, what else are 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:44.560 they trying to fight? And are they trying to get 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.679 my address? Are they going to be waiting for me 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.240 in the office in the car park when I leave? 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.720 In those moments? Nina? For you, how do you balance 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:55.760 that up? Yeah? 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:57.639 And I think for a story like this, when you 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.840 know what you're doing is important and that it has 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:06.720 you know it's worth telling, then yeah, it's worth it. 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:09.800 Let me qualify that. I think it is worth it, 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:12.359 and I think on this one it has been worth it. 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:17.199 That said, it does take a toll. I don't know 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.800 if I'll do crime reporting again after this, and I've 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.000 done in almost twenty years on and off of doing it, 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:32.120 but this case, this investigation, this has taken more out 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:38.720 of me and we have found things and darknesses that 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:42.000 I never expected to and a lot of that is 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:46.880 in the episodes that are coming out from Monday. The 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:52.119 things we have seen and found have been utterly shocking. 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.800 I actually don't know if I want to do this anymore. 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:57.679 So I think it's worth doing, but I don't know 0:18:57.800 --> 0:18:59.560 if I can. 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.720 If that makes sense, it does make sense and you 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:06.600 just said I think it's worth doing. And when I 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.960 heard you say that, you don't think you will do? 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:13.040 I don't know. I've got I've got. 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:17.920 That would beg the question. Obviously, WILL want to talk 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:20.000 to you both about what you can tell us about 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:23.040 what's coming up and some of what you have uncovered. 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:28.760 But without getting into that right now, is it worth it? 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:30.040 Has it been worth it? 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:30.840 Oh? 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:34.440 Yeah, it's it's definitely worth it. Well, I don't think 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:38.440 either of us are sleeping. Well at the moment, we're 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:42.119 not sleeping. Dan's had to deal with wild mood swings 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:42.399 from me. 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:44.320 That's not true. 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:49.359 Which is I think we could have anticipated. Yeah, I 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.320 think we could have anticipated where this was going to 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.320 take us, and I think we both thought it was 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:58.639 going to be quite a lot more simple than it was. 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:02.640 I think the day I was calling up bowlers from 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.760 a bowling alley thirty years ago, and maybe the day 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.080 I was running around trying to find a microcassette tape, 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:11.760 and there's just been so many weird wrong turns and 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:14.440 right turns through us. I just don't that we could 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:18.960 have anticipated how long, in depth, unusual and dark it 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:20.720 was all going to be. But I think it's worth it. 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:23.120 Well, we know there was no small talk in your 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:25.600 working relationship, as you're saying, I mean, it got straight 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:28.960 straight to the point on your first meeting. This is 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.240 obviously an extremely intense experience, and it has been the 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:34.480 two of you working on it, and you have been 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:36.840 doing a lot of traveling as well. You've been on 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:39.439 the road a lot to small country towns. You're in 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:42.480 the car together for hours every day. I mean, everyone 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.600 who's ever done a road trip knows it's not all 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:46.960 it's cracked up to be with the little Hollywood movies 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:51.440 with their music montage. In fact, talking about montage, I've 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:53.600 got a little bit of audio because I was going 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.600 to ask if you argue, But don't answer that, because 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.359 just a little bit of audio has made its way 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.720 into my courtesy of our producer Emma Lee. 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:07.280 We've just pulled up. We have okay. Well, I was 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:09.240 going to say, what's on the sign? Certainly helps you 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:13.720 yea for the recording audience. 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:18.040 No, I know that I'm not just telling you what's 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.359 on the sign. I'm waiting for you to say so, Dan. 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:23.960 Well, I was gonna, you know what for once, I 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:25.280 was going to say where we were. 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:28.920 But we hadn't pulled up with should we anymore? All right? 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.000 See, this is a danger when you're working audio that 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:39.959 there's always audio to play back. What that's actually pretty mild. 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:41.679 I won't editorialize. 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:43.520 I think we also had a fight where because I 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:46.040 was saying that Dan doesn't say yes and enough as 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:47.280 a scene partner. 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:48.920 Yes and enough. 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:50.800 Yeah, she didn't know what I. 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:56.320 Was talking about. The role of the reporter is really 0:21:56.359 --> 0:22:00.600 to do what your producer tells you. And it's possible 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.679 that that maybe he got blurred after Like I mean, 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:05.480 one point, we were doing like six hours in the 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.159 car next day, six hours in the car next day, 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:10.119 and then when you stop it is to do these 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:13.120 emotionally charged interviews, and then you're back in the car 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:18.080 driving on. You're staying in these motel rooms. And at 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:19.960 one point Nina was up in the middle of the 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:23.879 night and the next morning, you know, she's kind of 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:26.480 feverishly looking at this thing that seemed really important. And 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:28.159 then I get a text the next morning saying I 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:30.240 need to talk to you. And the first thing we 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:32.720 say is she's back in the car, the microphone's back on. 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:35.320 But I wouldn't have wanted to do it with anyone else. 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:39.200 And that's the thing that is true. Everything in these 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:44.240 next four episodes is from Nina. Like I, she drove this. 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:47.240 The stuff we found, I would never have expected she 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:51.040 found it. I'm very much just walking around asking the 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:55.239 questions on tape. This is where Nina took charge of 0:22:55.280 --> 0:23:00.200 the investigation without being asked, because it was mine she 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:04.280