1 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: Hi, This is Dan and first up, I just wanted 2 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: to say thank you, seriously thank you to those people 3 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: who have come forward since we released those last few 4 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: episodes of this series. Just on the back of those 5 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: people who've contacted us with their tips, we have broken 6 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: new news stories about this case. One of those is 7 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: someone who's come forward and said that a second person 8 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: told them that Frank Abbot's brother, Bluie, claimed that Frank 9 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: was involved in what happened to William. I also spoke 10 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: to a former prisoner who got in touch to say 11 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: that he had met Frank Abbot inside prison and Frank 12 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: had given him a detailed account of what happened to William, 13 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: and that this former prisoner tried to tell detectives that 14 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: he spoke to David Laidlaw, who's running the investigation, only 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: to be told that they still think William's foster mother 16 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: is allegedly responsible, and that the police didn't follow up 17 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: with this prisoner about what he said he'd heard. Now, 18 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: of course, both William's foster mum and Frank Abbott have 19 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: denied any involvement in what took place on that day, 20 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: twelfth of September twenty fourteen, and I'm not saying that 21 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: these new allegations are true, just saying that they have 22 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: been made and they have not been followed up by 23 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: the police. We've also written another story saying the coroner 24 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: who's running the inquest into William's disappearance has now said 25 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: they will consider new evidence if it's provided to them 26 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: by the police, and you can read all that reporting 27 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: at news dot com dot au. But we also know 28 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: that this story isn't over. And more importantly, we know 29 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: that this story is not about us, but it's about William, 30 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: and it's also now about Helen and Margaret and Sherry 31 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: Lee and those people closest to them. But some people 32 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: have also got in touch with us recently asking how 33 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: Nina and I are doing, especially after the last episode, 34 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: where I think you can hear that all this work 35 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: has had an effect on us. So what we're going 36 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: to do now is we're going to play the audio 37 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: of an interview that Nina and I took part in 38 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: just before the release of those last four episodes in 39 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: this series. It's from another podcast called Something to Talk About, 40 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: hosted by Sarah Lemarquand, and we're including it here because 41 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: it lifts the curtains a bit on making this series 42 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: and it does give you a sense of what it 43 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: takes to do that and what it takes out of 44 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: you when you end up doing an investigation like this. 45 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: Dan Box and Nina Young, Welcome to the Stellar podcast. 46 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: Thank you. 47 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: I know you're very familiar with how podcasts work, are 48 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 2: pretty much more so than anyone else in Australia. But 49 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: first time here, and of course just full disclosure to 50 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: our listeners right up front. We all work together, yep. 51 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: But before anyone thinks that they're about to watch or 52 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: listen or read to an editorial meeting, Okay, that might 53 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: be true, but an editorial meeting with two of the 54 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: top investigative journalists in the country, the brilliant duo behind 55 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: Witness William Tyrrel, which launched last year last October, went 56 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: straight to number one on the Australian podcast charts, millions 57 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: and millions of downloads since, and is about to return 58 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: with four new episodes that will reveal new information that 59 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: could take the investigation in a whole new direction. So 60 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 2: if that's an editorial meeting, let's get on with it. 61 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: Let's call Ahara and invite Australia to come and join this. 62 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 2: William Terrell, of course, being the three year old boy 63 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 2: who disappeared from his grandmother's garden in twenty fourteen. He's 64 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: never been found. The disappearance has been one of the 65 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: most talked about cases in the country. For months now. 66 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: You have been working on these new episodes that will 67 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 2: be dropping from tomorrow. You've spoken to everyone who's been 68 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 2: involved in the case, including William's biological family, his cares, 69 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: and former homicide detective Gary Jubilan Dan. I'll start with you. 70 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: You are a Walkley Award winning journalist who's broken hundreds 71 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 2: of stories across the court of your career, both in 72 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: the UK and here in Australia. Can you tell me 73 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: what first drew your attention to the William Tyrell disappearance 74 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: and your first involvement in investigating this case. 75 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: I was one of the few reporters who covered the 76 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: immediate after Martha William's disappearance, so that's going back ten 77 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: years now. I wasn't there the day after, but I 78 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: think I was there within days working on the story. 79 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: And I remember I've covered a lot of murders and 80 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: you get kind of hardened to it. They don't bother 81 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: you anymore, but this one. I remember one occasion I 82 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: was up on Bellerom Drive, which is the road that 83 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: William was last seen on, and the detective who was 84 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: leading the investigation at the time was talking me through 85 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: their theory then that William may have run down this 86 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: grass bank from the house to the road, and that 87 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: maybe someone had been on that road and that person 88 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: had taken William. And I had a three year old 89 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: at home, so the same age as William to within 90 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: a couple of months, I think, And because of that, 91 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: I could picture a three year old and how they move, 92 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, that slightly wonky, slightly funky way of moving. 93 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: I could picture my three year old running down that 94 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: slope to the person on the road, and it troubled 95 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: me in a way I don't think any other case 96 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: has troubled me. And I've stayed with it in different 97 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: ways and in different forms, reporting on it in the 98 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: ten years since. And I think part of the reason 99 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: to come back to it and look at it in 100 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: the way we have done now, and Nina and I 101 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: have been working on this for two and a bit 102 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: years now. This is part of the reason I was 103 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: grateful for the invitation to come and talk to you, 104 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: because I know normally this podcast is about talking to 105 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: celebrities and about with that world of celebrity. But of 106 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: all the murders that I've covered, I think maybe there 107 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: are a few other murders in Australia that have that 108 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,559 Speaker 1: element of almost celebrity to it. Not the good things 109 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: about celebrity, but the vast amount of media attention. I've 110 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: literally seen paparazzi car chases pursuing witnesses. I've actually been 111 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: involved in one of them. The people trawling through the 112 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: untold details of other people's lives, lives that are just 113 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: kind of held up to the examination of the media 114 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: gaze and kind of ripped apart all that element of celebrity. 115 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: The William Tiole case has and has been kind of 116 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: distorted by it, and now I don't think, like maybe 117 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: with a lot of celebrities, what people think is the 118 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: truth and what actually is the truth of completely different things. 119 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: So that that's why we came back to it. 120 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 2: Nina, What about for you, because you have, over the 121 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 2: course of your journalism career, tell our audience a little 122 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 2: bit about that idea, and as Dan has explained, this 123 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: story that has genuinely captivated an entire nation, and then 124 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: from that moment bringing something like witness to fruition. 125 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. So Dan, I think started at a company about 126 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 3: two years ago. We met a Yeah. Yeah, the day 127 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 3: he came in, we had a meeting and I was like, Hi, 128 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 3: I'm Nina. I've heard you're doing a William terryl podcast 129 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 3: and I would like to work on it because I 130 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 3: don't do small talk. Sarah Noely, Hello, I'm going to 131 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 3: work with you. I don't think I anticipated at that 132 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 3: point or could have the amount of work that we 133 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 3: were actually going to be pouring into this thing, or 134 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 3: that would be working on it two years later, but 135 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 3: we did get straight to work. A lot of that 136 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 3: work is sort of quiet background filing, the amount of 137 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: filing this guy does. 138 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: We've got a timeline, so a list of events like 139 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: bullet points, this happened, then that happened, then that happened, 140 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: then that happened. I think it's actually about a quarter 141 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: of a million words now, so it's the length of 142 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: two and a bit books, and that's just our kind 143 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: of main reference document. But you know the amount of 144 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: work that Nina's done, We wouldn't be here now talking 145 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: about these new episodes because I thought we'd finished this 146 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: series last year, and if I used to tell Nina 147 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: that I was taking the whole of this year off. 148 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: But at the end of the last year, Nina went 149 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 1: off on this kind of side investigation, which I kind 150 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: of just. 151 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,719 Speaker 3: Kept going, like, I'll talk to you about it. 152 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: And we finished the series last year. I thought that 153 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: was the end of the Nina said, right now, you 154 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: have to sit down and I'll tell you what I've got. 155 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 1: And I remember, the feeling is almost this sinking feeling 156 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: of Okay, there's so much more to do. 157 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: So that whole year off, which, by the ways, first I've. 158 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 3: Heard about this as a manager. 159 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: But we'll talk about we'll talk about that offline that 160 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 2: you knew then that you had to go back coming 161 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: into the first series. What were the biggest questions for 162 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: each of you that you initially wanted to explore. What 163 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: of all of the questions that people were asking, do 164 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: you think that appetite for answers was the strongest for Nina. 165 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 3: I think there was so much mystery surrounding this case, 166 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 3: and despite what had been fed to the media, there 167 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 3: weren't really any details to it. So we knew that 168 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 3: the police were looking at Williams foster mother as a 169 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 3: potential person of interest or a suspect, but they didn't 170 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 3: really say why, and they didn't say why they were 171 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 3: looking at her rather than looking at other persons of 172 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 3: interests that had been raised previously in the investigation. I 173 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 3: think that's the biggest focus that people had when we 174 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 3: first started this investigation. 175 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, for me, it was that that kind of gulf 176 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: between mean, what people thought they knew because of what 177 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: had been in the media, and what actually the truth was. 178 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: But there was another element to it for me, which 179 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: was because I'd been reporting on this in different ways 180 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: for newspapers. I did a couple of books that touched 181 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: on this. I knew a lot of the people involved 182 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: in the case and the investigation, and I had a 183 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: sense of how many lives had been caught up and 184 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: damaged not just by William going missing, but by the 185 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: police investigation that followed. So, you know, obviously you had 186 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: the families, the biological and the Foster family, but you 187 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: had different witnesses who'd been held up by the police 188 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: to media and court scrutiny, and their lives had just crumbled, 189 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: and then the police and the media had moved on 190 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: to the next person, and then each time there was 191 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: this kind of human wreckage left behind, and I I 192 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: wanted to put the focus back a little bit on 193 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: those lives as well, the lives that have been damaged 194 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: because of this attempt to find this child, which still 195 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: hasn't been successful. 196 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 2: Let me ask you both a little bit about that, 197 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 2: the motivation for doing the work that you do, because 198 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 2: it's obviously this particular case, and then of course the 199 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 2: other stories that you've investigated over the course of your 200 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,959 Speaker 2: respective careers. The material is it's extremely dark, it's confronting. 201 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 2: You are working through details that obviously there are other 202 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: people in other professions that we as a society think. 203 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: I don't know how I could be exposed to all 204 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: of that and then go home and live a quote 205 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 2: unquote normal life. Is that what has motivated each of you? 206 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: Nina is As Dan spoke, he had that human connection 207 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: as a parent, which I think resonated with a lot 208 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 2: of people. I know. For me, my son was the 209 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: same age as William, and I remember one day there 210 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: was a copy of the Daily Telegraph on the living 211 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 2: room table and Logan was in his Spider Man suit 212 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: and he said to me, Mummy, is that me? And 213 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 2: I'm just sorry, I just wanted to share that money 214 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: down when you spoke about it. Obviously, we know as 215 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: journalists we don't need those personal connections to stories, but 216 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 2: when they do happen, you know that's also tapping into 217 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 2: something that other people are feeling. Nina, sorry, I've aston 218 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 2: answered that question. How obnoxious off me? I really want 219 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 2: to hear your answer. 220 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, obviously any parent in Australia can look at William's 221 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: face and see that connection and sort of no, instinctively, 222 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 3: how horrible that feeling would be a lot to lose 223 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 3: your child. But I also kind of connected with the 224 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 3: idea of there's all these potentially innocent people that have 225 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 3: been held up a suspects, that who have had their 226 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 3: lives ruined. I mean that could happen to literally anyone. 227 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 3: You could just be going about your day, you could 228 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 3: be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And 229 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 3: I kind of went really naively into this investigation, going 230 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 3: if the police are pursuing this woman so strongly, this. 231 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: Is William's foster mom. 232 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, of course they have something. 233 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: I thought that too when it was on the front page. 234 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 3: And the fact that we've come through the inquest with 235 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 3: no eyewitness evidence, no forensic evidence, no evidence that has 236 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: really been presented, I'm not happy with that. And so 237 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 3: I do feel like I'm driven by wanting to hold 238 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 3: people accountable for. 239 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: The damage done to those lives by the police decision 240 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: to focus on those people. And it's not just the people. 241 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: It goes back to children again, and so it's not 242 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: just the people you see on the front pages or 243 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: the TVs. It's their families and those ripples just spread out. 244 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 2: It's so true, isn't At every headline there's thousands of people, 245 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: entire communities, entire families that are behind that, and then 246 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: the story moves on, but their lives remained. And that's 247 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 2: before we even get into the whole social media I 248 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,359 Speaker 2: think where everyone Obviously there's a lot of self appointed 249 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 2: detectives out there of course with true crime as well, 250 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: so people then becoming vigilantes and feeling that they can. 251 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: Keep the case just on that. And sorry to interrupt, 252 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: when we started this reporting, because we were reporting that 253 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: maybe the police hadn't got it right, or we at 254 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: least investigate in the possibility the police might not have 255 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: it right about William's foster mum. I knew there were 256 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: whole communities out there online who very much thought the 257 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: police were in the right, and I knew they weren't 258 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: going to like this, and so talk to Nina about it, 259 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: about the possibility for online abuse, social media abuse, and 260 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: it came in, and it came in much quicker than 261 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: I expect. 262 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, he had the chat with me one day and 263 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 3: just said, look, I'm only going to bring it. Don't 264 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 3: look at this stuff, and I'm not going to look 265 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 3: at the stuff, but I've told someone to flag if 266 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 3: your name comes into it, and also if there are 267 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 3: credible threats to come up. It was the next day 268 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 3: that's already it happened. 269 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: We had to talk to the company about it, just 270 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: to let them know it's not just me, it's everyone 271 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: who's worked on this project, their names on it. So 272 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: there's a potential for all of those people to be 273 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: chased out. And I didn't mind if they were just 274 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: having a pop at me. I kind of expected it, 275 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: but it wasn't okay for them to go after other people. 276 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: And I have seen some of the stuff that's been 277 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: said since and that element to it, that kind of 278 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: modern element of media celebrity that's really ugly. 279 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, people have tried to message me on Instagram. There 280 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 3: was at one stage somebody rang the company here and 281 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 3: said that I'd tried to call them and they had 282 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: forgotten my phone number and asked the reception to give 283 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 3: them my phone number. And I know it was the 284 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 3: same person because they'd come through your email and Instagram 285 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 3: as well. So yeah, it's it's a whole new world 286 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 3: now that we have social media involved as well. 287 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: And what people seem to be happy to do on 288 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: social media is be worse towards women. I think the 289 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: kind of things people have said about me, some of 290 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: which is laughable, it's actually quite funny, some of which 291 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: is really nasty. 292 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 2: There definitely is a toxicity I think that is reserved, 293 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: particularly for women. 294 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was not surprised by. 295 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 2: This, definitely not surprising. But even when you are prepared, 296 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 2: and even when you have, as you say, somebody like 297 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 2: down warning you, and then the next day it's happening, Yeah, 298 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 2: you can be prepared, and then of course there's the 299 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: reality and you're talking, Nina about people trying to get 300 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 2: hold of your phone number. Anyone that's been in that 301 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 2: situation would understand that feeling that, well, what else are 302 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 2: they trying to fight? And are they trying to get 303 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 2: my address? Are they going to be waiting for me 304 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 2: in the office in the car park when I leave? 305 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 2: In those moments? Nina? For you, how do you balance 306 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 2: that up? Yeah? 307 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 3: And I think for a story like this, when you 308 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 3: know what you're doing is important and that it has 309 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 3: you know it's worth telling, then yeah, it's worth it. 310 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: Let me qualify that. I think it is worth it, 311 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: and I think on this one it has been worth it. 312 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 1: That said, it does take a toll. I don't know 313 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: if I'll do crime reporting again after this, and I've 314 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: done in almost twenty years on and off of doing it, 315 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: but this case, this investigation, this has taken more out 316 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: of me and we have found things and darknesses that 317 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: I never expected to and a lot of that is 318 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: in the episodes that are coming out from Monday. The 319 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: things we have seen and found have been utterly shocking. 320 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: I actually don't know if I want to do this anymore. 321 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: So I think it's worth doing, but I don't know 322 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: if I can. 323 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: If that makes sense, it does make sense and you 324 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 2: just said I think it's worth doing. And when I 325 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 2: heard you say that, you don't think you will do? 326 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. I've got I've got. 327 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 2: That would beg the question. Obviously, WILL want to talk 328 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 2: to you both about what you can tell us about 329 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: what's coming up and some of what you have uncovered. 330 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 2: But without getting into that right now, is it worth it? 331 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 2: Has it been worth it? 332 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: Oh? 333 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's definitely worth it. Well, I don't think 334 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 3: either of us are sleeping. Well at the moment, we're 335 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 3: not sleeping. Dan's had to deal with wild mood swings 336 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 3: from me. 337 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: That's not true. 338 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 3: Which is I think we could have anticipated. Yeah, I 339 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 3: think we could have anticipated where this was going to 340 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 3: take us, and I think we both thought it was 341 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 3: going to be quite a lot more simple than it was. 342 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 3: I think the day I was calling up bowlers from 343 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 3: a bowling alley thirty years ago, and maybe the day 344 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 3: I was running around trying to find a microcassette tape, 345 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 3: and there's just been so many weird wrong turns and 346 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 3: right turns through us. I just don't that we could 347 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 3: have anticipated how long, in depth, unusual and dark it 348 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 3: was all going to be. But I think it's worth it. 349 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 2: Well, we know there was no small talk in your 350 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: working relationship, as you're saying, I mean, it got straight 351 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 2: straight to the point on your first meeting. This is 352 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 2: obviously an extremely intense experience, and it has been the 353 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 2: two of you working on it, and you have been 354 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 2: doing a lot of traveling as well. You've been on 355 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 2: the road a lot to small country towns. You're in 356 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 2: the car together for hours every day. I mean, everyone 357 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: who's ever done a road trip knows it's not all 358 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 2: it's cracked up to be with the little Hollywood movies 359 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 2: with their music montage. In fact, talking about montage, I've 360 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 2: got a little bit of audio because I was going 361 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 2: to ask if you argue, But don't answer that, because 362 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 2: just a little bit of audio has made its way 363 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 2: into my courtesy of our producer Emma Lee. 364 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 3: We've just pulled up. We have okay. Well, I was 365 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 3: going to say, what's on the sign? Certainly helps you 366 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 3: yea for the recording audience. 367 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: No, I know that I'm not just telling you what's 368 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: on the sign. I'm waiting for you to say so, Dan. 369 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 3: Well, I was gonna, you know what for once, I 370 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: was going to say where we were. 371 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: But we hadn't pulled up with should we anymore? All right? 372 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: See, this is a danger when you're working audio that 373 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:39,959 Speaker 2: there's always audio to play back. What that's actually pretty mild. 374 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 2: I won't editorialize. 375 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: I think we also had a fight where because I 376 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 3: was saying that Dan doesn't say yes and enough as 377 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 3: a scene partner. 378 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 2: Yes and enough. 379 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, she didn't know what I. 380 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: Was talking about. The role of the reporter is really 381 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: to do what your producer tells you. And it's possible 382 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: that that maybe he got blurred after Like I mean, 383 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: one point, we were doing like six hours in the 384 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: car next day, six hours in the car next day, 385 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: and then when you stop it is to do these 386 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: emotionally charged interviews, and then you're back in the car 387 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: driving on. You're staying in these motel rooms. And at 388 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: one point Nina was up in the middle of the 389 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: night and the next morning, you know, she's kind of 390 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: feverishly looking at this thing that seemed really important. And 391 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: then I get a text the next morning saying I 392 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: need to talk to you. And the first thing we 393 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: say is she's back in the car, the microphone's back on. 394 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: But I wouldn't have wanted to do it with anyone else. 395 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: And that's the thing that is true. Everything in these 396 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: next four episodes is from Nina. Like I, she drove this. 397 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: The stuff we found, I would never have expected she 398 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: found it. I'm very much just walking around asking the 399 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,239 Speaker 1: questions on tape. This is where Nina took charge of 400 00:22:55,280 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 1: the investigation without being asked, because it was mine she 401 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: to without asking permission, without asking, she took charge of 402 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: the investigation and just dragged it into being something. It 403 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: was never going to be that good, but Nina made it. 404 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 3: Dan is exaggerating there, Dan, There's worth a huge amount 405 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 3: on this as well. 406 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 2: Coming from that sort of confronting, emotionally draining, physically taxing 407 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 2: our duous investigative work. To move in between those different things, 408 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 2: presumably is going back to that skill that. 409 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: You my wife will talk about this though. I really 410 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: struggle with the transition from work out of work into family, 411 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,719 Speaker 1: and I'm not very good at it, partly because our 412 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: work is intense in terms of the subject because most 413 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 1: of my work seems to be murder at the moment, 414 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: but also the intensity which we bring to it because 415 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: we're writing scripts, we're writing articles, and then particularly if 416 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: you're working from home. To flip from that into dinner time. 417 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 1: I've got three kids, one of them is three. It's 418 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: up to my wife hates I want to say this. 419 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: It's rolling chaos. And to flip from basically intense murder 420 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: to oh, it's dinner time with a three year old. 421 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: I cannot do it. I try so hard. I'm getting better, 422 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: but I'm working on that. So yeah, it looks we're 423 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: not perfect at it, but we're doing our best. Is 424 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: it does affect your sleep? Yeah, he has had dreams 425 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: about William Tyrrel. I've got to the point where before 426 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: I go to sleep, I tell myself, don't think about 427 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 1: William tool because I won't go to sleep otherwise. 428 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 2: Will we ever find out what happened to William Tyrell? 429 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: The answer to that when we come back. Let's talk 430 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 2: a little bit then about the next four episodes of Witness, which, 431 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 2: as you say, being released from tomorrow Monday, mayn nineteen. 432 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 2: As I said at the start, you have uncovered an 433 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 2: awful lot of information and that will obviously there'll be 434 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 2: new information in each of the four episodes. What can 435 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 2: you tell us our audience about what you have uncovered? First, 436 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 2: of all. 437 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, so we came to the end of the Inquest. 438 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 3: That's where we left our last episodes. 439 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 1: That's the inquest into William's disappearance. 440 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that inquest it ended very abruptly. In fact, 441 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 3: they canceled the. 442 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: Last week with a few days warning. They just said, 443 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: we're not going to have the next hearings. 444 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: And I think, again, naively, I was sort of hoping, well, 445 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 3: we'll go through the inquest and we'll get all the 446 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 3: answers that we need, we won't have any questions left. 447 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 3: We got to the end of the inquest, I had 448 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 3: more questions than ever and that's when we started looking 449 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 3: at some of those questions for this next part of 450 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 3: the series. What we decided to focus on was a 451 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 3: particular person of interest in the case who we felt 452 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 3: there we're remaining questions about at the inquest, and so 453 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 3: we've really gone deep on some of the evidence that 454 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 3: was presented at the inquest about him. We've gone on 455 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 3: and done our own investigation from there. We've found new witnesses, 456 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 3: we've found some potential connections between this person of interest 457 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 3: and some other unsolved cases on the Mid North Coast 458 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 3: that are not. 459 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: William tyrrel we found new allegations about an area the 460 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: police haven't searched, but that maybe we certainly would have 461 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: liked to see the police search. And what has struck 462 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: me throughout is that the evidence we've uncovered, a lot 463 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: of it was known to the police, or could have 464 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 1: been known to the police if they weren't asking questions, 465 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: and time and again it seems that they haven't. 466 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 3: Again, that's the other thing. I feel like I've been 467 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 3: naived the whole time. Every time I go into the 468 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 3: next chapter, I'm like, I was really thinking, we're not 469 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 3: going to get too far with what we're looking at here, 470 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 3: because we're going to realize that the place are in 471 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,239 Speaker 3: the middle of an active investigation here, and they're going 472 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 3: to pop up and they're going to tell us to stop. 473 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 3: Then it became really clear that was not going to 474 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 3: happen because the police hadn't spoken to any of these 475 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 3: people that they would have had to speak to if 476 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 3: they were doing a full investigation. 477 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: And people who've told us that they gave this evidence 478 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: and asked that it be passed on to particular detectives 479 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: and they've never had a call back. And we've spoken 480 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 1: to families of victims who say they call up the 481 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: police and ask them what's the latest, who's in charge 482 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: of the investigation now? And they never get phoned back, 483 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: They never get called back, And you think about the 484 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: enormity of what's happened to the families involved for the 485 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: police not to be responding. It just it just appaused me. 486 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: And that's not every case. Like I've been a crime 487 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: reporter and some of the most impressive people I've ever 488 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 1: met are in the New South Wales Police Force. I 489 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: mean that absolutely genuinely. But I used to have such 490 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: a high opinion of the New South Wales Police Force, 491 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: and over the course of these two years working on 492 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: this investigation, that incredibly high opinion of the force, it's 493 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: just been taken knock after knock after knock after knock, 494 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: and there's still some incredibly impressive people there. But I 495 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: can't say like I used to say that, I just 496 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 1: think that force is just a force for good. 497 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 3: Nina, What about for you? 498 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 2: You keep saying that you feel a bit naive sometimes 499 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 2: because you assume a certain outcome. Has your trust in 500 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 2: the police, investigation and authorities? Has that also been somewhat 501 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: undermined with your experience in this story. 502 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 3: It definitely has. But I think it's really important to 503 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 3: say that these police aren't operating in a vacuum when 504 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 3: they're doing these investigations. Everything's being okayed from the top, 505 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 3: so they're aware of how these things are operating. So 506 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 3: I think that some of that accountability has to go 507 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 3: to the top as well. We can't just be saying, like, 508 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 3: the police on the ground have done these investigations wrong. 509 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so Nina's right, and some of the accountability 510 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: has to be kind of reflected back on us as 511 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: the media, because a lot of what you've seen with 512 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: the William Toole investigation is newspapers TV taking information from 513 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: the police uncritically and publishing it. And I've had conversations 514 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: with journalists who have said that almost word for word 515 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: on the back of the most recent inquest, which showed 516 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: no evidence against the foster mother, who have said to me, 517 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: we took this information from the police in good faith, 518 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: and it turns out it wasn't fair, and maybe the 519 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: mistake is we took it in good faith and just 520 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: repeated what we were told. And you can say that 521 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: about Bill Spedding, and you can say that about me 522 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: because I reported on Bill Spedding when he was arrested. 523 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: He was charged unrelated offenses, but he was charged and 524 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: ultimately that case was thrown out and it was described 525 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: as the worst case of malicious prosecution in the history 526 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: of New South Wales. But I reported it all in 527 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: good faith, so I'm not innocent here. But I do 528 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: think when Nina talks about accountability, you've got to look 529 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: at the cops in charge, and you do have to 530 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: look at the media. 531 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: Once all the information that's going to be revealed in 532 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 2: these new four episodes is out there in the public 533 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 2: domain later in the week, what would you be anticipating 534 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,239 Speaker 2: or hoping? Maybe both of those you can answer. In 535 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: terms of the police investigation. 536 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 3: I would like to see the police investigate some of 537 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 3: this new information that we've found, and if they don't, 538 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 3: I would like to know. 539 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: Why Ninna's more hopeful than I am. 540 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 3: Again, if you I'm going in a bit nicely, I'll 541 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 3: come back to you. 542 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: I would like to see I would like to see 543 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: a lot if I'm honest. At this point, we know 544 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: because the lead lawyer at the inquest just before Christmas 545 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: of last year said that there is no evidence no 546 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: forensic evidence, no eyewitness evidence about what happened to William 547 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: in terms of how William was taken from that house 548 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: where he was last known to be to wherever he 549 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: is now. So we know there is no evidence. I 550 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: would like to see the police and the coroner stop 551 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: and say, well, that's not good enough. We're not just 552 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: going to wrap up the investigation, which they're due to 553 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: do later this year when the coroner will hand down 554 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,719 Speaker 1: a report. I would like them to say, we're not 555 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: accepting that. We are going to throw everything at it 556 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: again until we find William. I would also, and this 557 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: is where it gets impossible, I would like to see 558 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: them do that for do you know how many unsolved 559 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: homicides there are in New South Wales. There are hundreds, 560 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of families whose loved ones were murdered 561 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: or went missing and have no answers. I would love 562 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: to see them do that for all of those. And 563 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: I would love for there to be a proper investigation, 564 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: and I mean it's going to have to be special 565 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: commission or Royal Commission powers into firstly, what went wrong 566 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: with the William Tirell investigation, because ten years later we 567 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: haven't found it. But also I'd love to see that 568 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: investigation into what went wrong with all these other unsolved homicides, 569 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: because the closer you look at them, you realize that 570 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: things were done wrong in a lot of them. I 571 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: would love to see all of that. I don't expect 572 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: to see any of it, and that that really bothers me. 573 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: Do you think we will ever find out what happened 574 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 2: to William Tyrrel. 575 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 3: I hope that we get answers. Am I hopeful that 576 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 3: we will. It's looking less and less likely ten years on. 577 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 3: Witnesses are getting older, dying and losing their memories. And 578 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 3: you know, there are witnesses that we've spoken to in 579 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 3: these new episodes that are coming out this week that 580 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 3: the police haven't spoken to yet, but by this point 581 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 3: their memories are already going. So we know that it's 582 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 3: too late for the police really to speak to these people. 583 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 3: It may be too late, But I really really hope 584 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 3: we get answers. 585 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: I think we might. I think we might, And it 586 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: might well be something that comes up seemingly out of 587 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,439 Speaker 1: the blue. A new witness comes forward, a new piece 588 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: of evidence, A detective picks up the file and goes well, 589 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: what about that that happens in other cases. But I'm 590 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: pretty sure that if it does happen, and we know 591 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: this from talking to other detectives, that if that does happen, 592 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: if we do get an answer, that answer will already 593 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: be there in the files somewhere. The police have got 594 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 1: so many tens of thousands of different documents and exhibits 595 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: and reports and statements. The little detail that is the 596 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: key to this will be in that file somewhere. They 597 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: just haven't found it yet or realized what it is. 598 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: And if we do answer this case, I bet you 599 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: are able to go back and say there, that's the 600 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: point it went wrong. 601 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 2: What role also does public scrutiny play in this in 602 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 2: terms of going back to accountability when it comes to police? 603 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 2: We know that this new information will be picked up 604 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 2: by all other media across Australia. What you have uncovered 605 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 2: will there'll be huge public interest in it for the 606 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 2: reasons that we've talked about. Because William's disappearance has been 607 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 2: a source of fascination for eleven years now, we know 608 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 2: that that sort of public appetite, scrutiny, renewed interest and 609 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,439 Speaker 2: demand for answers. Is this new information being investigated. Dan, 610 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 2: you talked about investigators not returning phone calls from witnesses, 611 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 2: not having their opportunity to speak being taken up. Are 612 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 2: you optimistic, either of you, that that sort of interest 613 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 2: that these new four episodes it's going to put it 614 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 2: back on the front burner in a way that the 615 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 2: Sweetel would and didn't. 616 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 3: Well, we know, I mean we've spoken to homicide detectives 617 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 3: about this, about the role that the media plays in 618 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 3: the kind of resourcing that they get and the pressure 619 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 3: that they get. Politically, Yeah, it can definitely push push 620 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 3: resources onto a case and give them more of a focus. 621 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 3: I don't know whether we will see that in this case. 622 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 1: It can happen, though, Yeah, it does happen, and that's 623 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 1: when the job's really good. Yeah, when you do see 624 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: a case that has been forgotten or put to one 625 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: side or left and opened, and you do see it 626 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: picked up where you pick it up, and then you 627 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: see because what happens is it's on the front pages 628 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: or on the websites or on the TV. The politicians 629 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: pick up the phone and they ask the police commissioner 630 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: what's going on. The police commissioner picks up the phone 631 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: and asks they had a homicide, what's going on? And 632 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: that filters down and suddenly you've got people looking for answers. 633 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 1: So it can happen. 634 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 2: It can happen, and when it does happen, it will 635 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 2: happen because of the two of you. 636 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 1: It happens. 637 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I wouldn't say it's because of the two of 638 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 3: us that a lot of really brave people have come 639 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 3: forward and spoken, and they're the ones who are really 640 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 3: putting themselves on the line to do that. We're just 641 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 3: standing there with a microphone, So it's definitely won't come 642 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 3: down to us. 643 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 2: But it is that pressure though, isn't it. And it 644 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 2: is giving a platform for those people to be heard 645 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 2: and then force some pressure to be brought to bear 646 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 2: on authorities to act. My final question for you both 647 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 2: and is about the people that are at the heart 648 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 2: of this case. William's love to answer his families. Do 649 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 2: you believe that this what might transpire this week in 650 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 2: the public domain? Do you think that will bring them 651 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 2: some sort of relief. Obviously you've spoken to them, you 652 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 2: know them. Are you able to talk a little bit 653 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 2: about what you think this new information might mean for them, 654 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 2: how they're feeling and again with the case back in 655 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 2: the headlines this week, what it might mean for them 656 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 2: in terms of that elusive goal of closure. 657 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 1: We've spoken to some of them. Some of them have 658 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: chosen not to speak to us, and we have to 659 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,839 Speaker 1: respect that because what they're going through. We can't imagine 660 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: to lose a child in those circumstances and never have 661 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: an answer. So we have spoken to some of them, 662 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: both biological family and foster family. I met with some 663 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: of them just a few days ago. I'll be honest, 664 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: I think the effect will be turbulence for them, emotional 665 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: to urbulence. But the sense that I get at the 666 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: moment from talking to them is of anger. Anger everything 667 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: that has played out since that moment that William was 668 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: reported missing, Anger at the lack of a resolution, Anger 669 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: that were still here ten years ago, basically asking why 670 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: hasn't this been fixed? And I think that anger is 671 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,879 Speaker 1: going to flare again as a result of what we're 672 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: about to report. 673 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 2: Well, congratulations on everything that you have achieved so far 674 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 2: and in these upcoming new four episodes of Witness, William 675 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 2: tyrrel Nina Young, Dan Box, it's been an absolute pleasure 676 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 2: to talk to you. Thank you everyone, for joining our 677 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 2: editorial meeting. I think you would agree. 678 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 3: That's a way more glamorous, not your usual. 679 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 2: Of course, there was audio, because, as we've just discovered 680 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 2: thanks to Emily, we always have audio of all of 681 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 2: our conversations. Not really HR, that's not legal. Thank you 682 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 2: for joining me today. If you've enjoyed this episode, let 683 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 2: us know by leaving a review or sending it to 684 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 2: a friend, and make sure you're following something to talk about, 685 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 2: because we'll be back with another exclusive guest next week