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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life, the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Policing can

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Speaker 1: offer diversity and adventure that few other occupations can. Today's

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Speaker 1: guest Camaron Hardiman, has dangled from helicopters in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the ocean, up in the riot in an overseas

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Speaker 1: peacekeeping mission, and undertaken humanitarian work following the christ Church earthquake.

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Speaker 1: All of this over a thirty five year career across

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Speaker 1: the Victorian Police and the Australian Federal Police. These dangerous

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Speaker 1: jobs came at a cost, and Cameron talks about one

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Speaker 1: job that changed everything. Cameron Hardiman, Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Jerry, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: I was a cop for a long time and I

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Speaker 1: looked at you air wing dudes and didn't realize or

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Speaker 1: fully appreciate the type of work that you did. And

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Speaker 1: reading your book ten foot Tall, getting a sense of

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Speaker 1: the type of jobs that you were doing as an

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Speaker 1: observer on the air Wing in Victorian Police, I didn't realize.

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Speaker 1: I thought you just helped us Chase Crooks. Didn't realize

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Speaker 1: that you attended to a lot of accents and doing

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Speaker 1: the ambulance work as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that ambulance role was particular to Victoria.

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Speaker 2: I mean when I first went to the air Wing,

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Speaker 2: I had no idea that their observers and the police

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Speaker 2: helicopter went do their ambulance work either. And what it

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Speaker 2: was was back in the eighty five, if think eighty six,

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Speaker 2: it was a handshake between the Chief Commissioner and the

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Speaker 2: ambulance or the head of the ambulance service to create

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Speaker 2: a twenty four hour police machine and a twenty four

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Speaker 2: hour hour ambulance. So the commissioner, I think it was

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Speaker 2: McK miller, I went and bought two more helicopters and

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Speaker 2: it was this handshake agreement between the two services that

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Speaker 2: lasted from nineteen eighty five to twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well that explains it. Because I was thinking from

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Speaker 1: the New South Wales point of view, I didn't see that,

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Speaker 1: But that makes a lot of sense. But that adds

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Speaker 1: another dynamic to a job, doesn't it. Like you're doing

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Speaker 1: the police the type of stuff that you do. You

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Speaker 1: do some rescues and different things that the police air

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Speaker 1: wing would do. But it must have been pretty heavy

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Speaker 1: doing the ambulance work as well.

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Speaker 2: Look it was, but I quite enjoyed it because it

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Speaker 2: was a break from stand police work. I've don't you know,

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Speaker 2: I did eight years general duties uniform policing before went

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Speaker 2: to the Yeah you know, I mean we say that,

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Speaker 2: or police work. It's quite exciting because when you get

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Speaker 2: to work you don't know what you're going to get.

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Speaker 2: But when I got to work, I would have a

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Speaker 2: look on the roster and see what I was flying

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Speaker 2: in the air ambulance, the police helicopters. So not only

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Speaker 2: I didn't know what I was going to get through

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Speaker 2: the shift. I also had to prepare for something totally different.

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Speaker 2: Air ambulance work. I found incredibly interesting and rewarding. For

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Speaker 2: the most part. They procuded a whole lot of different

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Speaker 2: skills that we had to learn. I enjoyed it for

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Speaker 2: the time that I was allowed to do it.

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Speaker 1: Well, you talked about not knowing what you're going to do,

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Speaker 1: and that's part of part of the excitement with policing,

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Speaker 1: and you've got it on steroids when you're doing the

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Speaker 1: ambulance work as well, But that isn't I think anyway.

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Speaker 1: And attraction to policing, the type of variety of work

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Speaker 1: that you can do, and your living testament in your

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Speaker 1: career you've done so many diverse things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks, Yeah, And like I didn't have the normal

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Speaker 2: police career that most most police do. They go through us.

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Speaker 2: You probably went through the process where they want you

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Speaker 2: in uniform policing and general duties for you know, five

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Speaker 2: to ten years, and then they expected to become a detective,

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Speaker 2: as a senior detective and then eventually a uniform sergeant

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Speaker 2: and then progress through the ranks. But I had totally

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Speaker 2: different trajectory I mean I nearly went down that role,

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Speaker 2: but it came very close. But it's just that this

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Speaker 2: job came up and I put in for it and

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Speaker 2: got it, and that was it. That was the end

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Speaker 2: of me. It was no more becoming detective at that stage.

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Speaker 2: It was flying. And it was twenty four seven.

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Speaker 1: We're going to unpack your career and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of just amazing things that you've done throughout your career.

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Speaker 1: Both and you worked for thirty five years policing, but

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Speaker 1: probably split up fifty to fifty Victorian Police and AFP police.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was about the twenty years and just over

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Speaker 2: fifteen for the AFP.

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Speaker 1: What tell us about your childhood. Where'd you grow up?

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Speaker 2: I was a rough break. So I had a father

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Speaker 2: that was in the Air Force and so we toured

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Speaker 2: a bit, so I spent a lot of time in Adelaide,

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Speaker 2: the Air Force based there. But I was born in

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Speaker 2: Melbourne and I lived here for a few years. Then

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Speaker 2: we went to Malaya where he was stationed three years,

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Speaker 2: and we came back to Melbourne and then we went

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Speaker 2: to Adelaide, then we came back to Melbourne. So it

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Speaker 2: was a pretty transient lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: I speak to a lot of you know, they call

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Speaker 1: them the army brats, or the kids have grown up

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Speaker 1: with their parents in the armed forces. It must be

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Speaker 1: a bit rough changing schools and locations, or a different

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Speaker 1: experience from the average average childs growing up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. I think by the time I hit

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Speaker 2: year nine, I was on my third high school. It's

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Speaker 2: not what i'd expect for or want for every kid,

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Speaker 2: and I certainly don't want it for my children. Made

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Speaker 2: sure when they started school they were going to stay there.

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Speaker 2: Although I enjoyed moving around and living in different places,

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Speaker 2: I really didn't enjoy going to different schools and having

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Speaker 2: to make new friends. It's quite hard on kids.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I could imagine it'd be very hard. But I

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Speaker 1: suppose it builds your resilience and your communication skills and

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Speaker 1: everything else moving around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it certainly does. I mean, it definitely does build resilience.

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Speaker 2: So that's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, policing. What steered you towards policing?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't do too well on my last year

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Speaker 2: of high school, so I spent about twelve months down

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Speaker 2: the beach. I did get into serving and loved it,

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Speaker 2: And the other thing I enjoyed doing is going to

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Speaker 2: see bands at pubs when band used to play pubs.

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Speaker 2: So I had like a twelve month gap year before

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Speaker 2: gap years were trending, and I got to the point

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Speaker 2: where I just desperately needed a job. And I saw

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Speaker 2: and I sat on the TV that had police helicopters

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Speaker 2: and dogs, squad units and boats and all this exciting stuff.

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Speaker 2: So I thought I'd give it a crack. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: within about six months I was in.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about that. How old were you when you joined?

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Speaker 2: I was eighteen when I went in.

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Speaker 1: You're a baby, aren't you. You think you know about

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Speaker 1: the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you think you think you're king in the world,

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Speaker 2: but you've got absolutely no idea. I mean, I didn't

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Speaker 2: even know how to shave. Probably. In fact, I'm pretty

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Speaker 2: sure I didn't shave until I got to the Voice Academy.

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Speaker 2: The only good thing is I was used to study.

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Speaker 2: Not that I did well, but I used to study.

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Speaker 2: So I consider some of these thirty five year olds

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Speaker 2: that suddenly had a career change and joined the police

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Speaker 2: force with me, they had a terrible problem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw a few of them when I joined,

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Speaker 1: and I think we joined around the around the same time.

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Speaker 1: And when they are opening up the academy for all

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Speaker 1: the applicants and students and some people that have burned

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Speaker 1: out of school for fifteen twenty years and then expecting

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Speaker 1: the study because is it's Yeah, certainly achievable and passable,

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Speaker 1: but there is a lot that you've got to learn

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Speaker 1: when you go into the academy. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I just to look at these thirty five year olds

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Speaker 2: hitting the books for the first time in twenty years.

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Speaker 2: We used to there was heavily into physical fitness, so

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Speaker 2: we used to run the track constantly all day. To

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Speaker 2: see some of these older people struggling, and I was

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Speaker 2: I just didn't have a problem with that.

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Speaker 1: Did it feel like the right fit for you in

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Speaker 1: the academy, did you? I know, when I went through

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Speaker 1: the academy, I felt yet, this feels right for I

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Speaker 1: couldn't believe I was getting paid for doing this, running

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Speaker 1: around shooting guns and having a bit of fun.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I knew straight away. I knew straight away this

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Speaker 2: is a job for me. And the second I hit

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Speaker 2: the street, which was four and a half months later

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Speaker 2: at avan Awatt's police station, I definitely knew. It was

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Speaker 2: just I was having a ball. I was like a

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Speaker 2: kid in a lily shop.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about that early early times, when you just started.

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Speaker 1: You've been in the academy for four and a half months.

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Speaker 1: You went to was it Avondale the police station a Heights.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so Western Suburbs station in Melbourne. You know, I

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Speaker 2: never heard much about it. I used to call it

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Speaker 2: after a while, I used to call it sleepy hollow.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't it wasn't terribly busy. Yeah, Avanda Heights is

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Speaker 2: a weird suburb. There's only one or two ways into

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Speaker 2: the suburb because the rest of it's surrounded by a

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Speaker 2: river and freeways. And but to the north you had

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Speaker 2: broad Meadows, which was flat out. South of that was Sunshine,

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Speaker 2: which is even more busier, and the west was Saint

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Speaker 2: Orban's which was probably the busiest, one of the busiest

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Speaker 2: stations in the Western Suburbs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder what's best for young police. Like some

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Speaker 1: everyone wants ago. You want to go to a busy station.

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Speaker 1: You want to be involved in all the action as

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Speaker 1: much as you can get. But I see sometimes with

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Speaker 1: the busy stations you've got to be rush through it,

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Speaker 1: and with the stations are slightly less less busy or

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Speaker 1: quieter that you've got a chance to learn and pick

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Speaker 1: up the trade, because it is like a trade, the

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Speaker 1: skills that you need as a police officer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right. I wanted excitement. I drive to work

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Speaker 2: the first twelve months with peaplates on my car, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I got to drive a police car without

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Speaker 2: them and go fast and full people over and tell

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Speaker 2: people domestics how to handle their relationship properly, even though

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Speaker 2: I hadn't had one longer lot of week. So I

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Speaker 2: wanted excitement. But you're right. Easing into it allowed more

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Speaker 2: time to learn properly. And I had some really good,

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Speaker 2: very good mentors at that station.

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Speaker 1: Well, you wanted your experience, and I looked and going

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Speaker 1: through some of the things that your experience and it's

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Speaker 1: not unusual for most police at the start of the career.

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Speaker 1: But tell us about catching your first burglar.

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Speaker 2: It was on night shift and we were the old, crusty,

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Speaker 2: old senior comfortable back there's probably did forty years. It

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Speaker 2: was my mentor. Yeah, he used to say, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is how you drive a police car in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the night. So he dropped down about five

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Speaker 2: or six kilometers an hour when windows down, and just

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Speaker 2: listened and looked, and I thought, this is absolutely boring.

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Speaker 2: And next thing, he's hit the brakes and there's two

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Speaker 2: guys running down a driveway jump on the back fence,

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Speaker 2: and that was my first catch. I mean, one got away,

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Speaker 2: but we certainly got the other one. And that was exhilarating.

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Speaker 2: I thought I was a cloud nine. You know, it

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Speaker 2: wasn't much older than nineteen years old.

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Speaker 1: I know what you're talking about. That first chase, when

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Speaker 1: the foot chase, when someone's the bad guy's running away

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Speaker 1: and you're the good guy and you're chasing after him.

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Speaker 1: It's fantastic, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not only that, I mean the first car chaser

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Speaker 2: went in was being in an XD four Falcon manual

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Speaker 2: chasing a Jaguar down the main street out of the

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Speaker 2: heights at break next speeds. You know, that was a

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Speaker 2: time when they expected it a can continue chasing people.

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Speaker 2: They never called one off. The only time a chase

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Speaker 2: was called off is when you caught them all they crashed.

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Speaker 2: That's that long ago. But you know, I mean that

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Speaker 2: was just adrenaline pumping and you don't come down.

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Speaker 1: Well, that was the way of the world back then,

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Speaker 1: wasn't it. The chase and I acknowledge and that, except

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Speaker 1: they had to change and put restrictions on it. It's

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Speaker 1: a complicated area. But yeah, I remember a car chase

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Speaker 1: and some escapees coming down the highway and it was crazy.

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Speaker 1: You know, it would do justice on a crazy TV

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Speaker 1: scene of car chases and ended up in ramming the car.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, and you think I'm getting paid to do

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Speaker 2: this paid, well.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've pulled out a couple of things because in

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Speaker 1: your book I saw that in a space of three

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Speaker 1: months you had attended three fatal car accidents. They're terrible,

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Speaker 1: and you know, if you are in an era in

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Speaker 1: policing that's got the main highway through it, invariably you

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Speaker 1: are going to some horrendous car crashes. But in your book,

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Speaker 1: there's a quote that you bought out in your book

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about attending the fatal car accidents and

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Speaker 1: autopsy viewings. My colleagues thought that if you couldn't handle

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Speaker 1: all that, then you were weak and not worthy of

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Speaker 1: wearing the police uniform. I understand where you're coming from it,

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Speaker 1: because that sort of view you couldn't well, this is

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Speaker 1: what we're getting paid to do. This is what you've

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Speaker 1: got to put up with. But it's pretty confronting, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, And then that that was just the

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Speaker 2: mentality back then. I think it's slightly changing. But you know,

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Speaker 2: there are some tough old coppers back then in the eighties,

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Speaker 2: and they expected you to do your job, and they

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Speaker 2: expect you to turn up the next day. And it

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Speaker 2: used to be this saying, you know, you can't get

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Speaker 2: upset about these things. A bit said ort a body

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Speaker 2: because you won't go to work, go to work the

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Speaker 2: next day, which I think is a lot of crap,

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Speaker 2: because I haven't met a cop at all ever that

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Speaker 2: would you go to something serious and think I can't

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Speaker 2: turn up the next day because they're just dying to

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Speaker 2: get to the next job. You tell a copper that

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Speaker 2: are big jobs coming up, and they're lining up waiting

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Speaker 2: to go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You don't see many people that hide from the

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Speaker 1: big jobs. And even when you're on the day off,

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Speaker 1: you're worried that something's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I miss out. I mean, you

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Speaker 2: don't want to take a day off because there might

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Speaker 2: be a big fatal accident, or there might be a

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Speaker 2: big car chase and you want to be any on

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Speaker 2: the action. There's nothing worse than sitting around the mess

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Speaker 2: room at lunchtime during the week and someone's telling war

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Speaker 2: stories and you happen to be in bed sloping in.

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Speaker 1: I understand that, but you do see, you do see

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Speaker 1: some horrific things, and it's you don't realize how young

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Speaker 1: you are at the time when you join, and how

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Speaker 1: raw you are and inexperience. I remember going to a

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Speaker 1: fatal car accident where a person burnt to death and

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Speaker 1: we saw him burn to death. I was working or

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Speaker 1: just driving someone in the rescue squad. That's why we

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Speaker 1: had to go there, finish that the horror of what

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Speaker 1: we've just seen, and then go back to the police station.

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Speaker 1: And he was quite happy cooking up his steak that night.

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Speaker 2: And I pictured the smell probably made most people.

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Speaker 1: I was saying, I just don't feel like eating right now,

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Speaker 1: especially steak.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and burns. I did a few burns on the

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Speaker 2: air ambulance of airing, and they're even more glorious that.

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Speaker 2: The smell is just overpowering, and then the visual cues

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Speaker 2: you get. It's a fair bit to handle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't leave you, it does it Another thing

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Speaker 1: again talking on accidents in that those early times when

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Speaker 1: you're working in uniform, you talked about well, one particular accent.

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Speaker 1: I think Adrian who was in the back of the

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Speaker 1: ambulance and he had a compound fracture of bone sticking

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Speaker 1: through his leg, and you were talking to him and

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Speaker 1: thinking how lucky he was because he survived, survived that accent,

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Speaker 1: and then you found out the next day that he died.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he died. I couldn't love it. I actually said

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Speaker 2: to him, I'll speak to you tomorrow and I'll get

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Speaker 2: a statement when you're better. And I remember coming into

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Speaker 2: work than saying, you know that accident from last night

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Speaker 2: to fatal and I thought, I no, I do. And

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Speaker 2: all he got was a blood clot that went from

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Speaker 2: his leg into his brain killed him.

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Speaker 1: Pullow another quote in your book, because I think it

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Speaker 1: just gives you a sense and really tie or chimes

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Speaker 1: into what was expected the police at the time. There

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Speaker 1: is an expectation both within the police force and from

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Speaker 1: the public the coppers were able to handle all the

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Speaker 1: carnage associated with fatal accidents, and who doesn't want to

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Speaker 1: live up to those expectations. So that's you talking that's quoting.

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Speaker 1: I know where you're coming from with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you want to do that. You're in

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Speaker 2: the job that you love and you think you're made for.

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Speaker 2: You don't want to believe that it's difficult for you

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Speaker 2: or you can't handle it, so your pupfishest out and

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Speaker 2: keep soldiering on.

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Speaker 1: And that gets to a point where you start to

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Speaker 1: get accepted. When you come in there, people tend to

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Speaker 1: just keep a distance, watch how you're going to go.

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Speaker 1: And then when you've got a few runs on the board,

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden you become one of the crew

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Speaker 1: and people start enjoy hanging out with you and working

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Speaker 1: with your requesting that they work with you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm pretty sure that half the police station didn't

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Speaker 2: know my name the first couple of months, and it

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Speaker 2: wouldn't surprised me. I remember when I first sat in

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Speaker 2: the police car, the senior comes fall next to me,

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Speaker 2: introduced himself, and the first thing you said after that

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Speaker 2: was that's the police radio. Don't touch it until I'll

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Speaker 2: tell you to. And I just sat there emotionless. Mind you,

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Speaker 2: the first time he told me to get on the

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Speaker 2: police radio, stuffed it up and I never looked that

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Speaker 2: down for months.

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Speaker 1: You talked about another accident and that was quite chilling,

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Speaker 1: where a female had severe head injuries and you got

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Speaker 1: there before the ambulance, waiting for the ambulance to arrive,

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Speaker 1: and there's a T shirt in the back of the

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Speaker 1: car because invariably people are trapped in the car, and

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Speaker 1: you're putting that T shirt up on the head. And

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Speaker 1: the way you describe it that the head felt soft

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Speaker 1: and spongy, and.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that was my first real hands on

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Speaker 2: you know, I think some of the accidents you get

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Speaker 2: to go to, all those fatal accidents, it might be

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Speaker 2: already a police car, the er or for the ambulancer

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Speaker 2: has already arrived. And this this accident again was on

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Speaker 2: the call the freeway, which was through the Avondale Heights area.

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Speaker 2: It was actually dark spot of the call the freeway too.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I remember that lady. She was amazing.

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Speaker 2: You know, she was more concerned about her children at home,

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Speaker 2: but I remember, you know, having to be in the

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Speaker 2: position to support her head and try and stop the blood.

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Speaker 2: And you know, that's it doesn't matter how many first

365
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Speaker 2: aid courses you do. The first time you do that,

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Speaker 2: it's quite confronting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and talking to it too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, you know she was quite lucid and

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Speaker 2: you know, talking conversation as if you know there was

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Speaker 2: nothing wrong. But you know, I said, she was more

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Speaker 2: concerned about her kids being home and what she was

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Speaker 2: about herself.

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Speaker 1: Then you after that, and again this is a path

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Speaker 1: that so many police would have been on. After that,

375
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Speaker 1: you're covered in blood, You go back to the station,

376
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Speaker 1: you're not knocking off, you to go clean yourself up,

377
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Speaker 1: clean the blood off you, and find the new uniform

378
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Speaker 1: if you've usually had a spare uniform therefore, those type

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Speaker 1: of things. And then you found out that she'd passed away.

380
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and not only you get dressed in uniform, You

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Speaker 2: finish your shift and you might get an eight hour

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Speaker 2: break where you go home, have some sleep, then start

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Speaker 2: again in the morning. No.

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Speaker 1: I'm raising this because it really bought it back what

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Speaker 1: policing is all about. And I know in some high

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Speaker 1: profile jobs like investigators or the tactical teams get the

387
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Speaker 1: cutos in the media and different things, but the backbone

388
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Speaker 1: of police anywhere is the general duties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean they're the first to get everywhere, even

390
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Speaker 2: a homicide. They're the first on the scene. Very rarely

391
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Speaker 2: the detective for local detective gets there first. I had

392
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Speaker 2: seen it happen, but very rarely.

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Speaker 1: You were also present, when I say present nearby when

394
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Speaker 1: the Russell Street bombing, when Angela Taylor, a young policewoman,

395
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Speaker 1: she was killed, and Carl Dinaldo Donadio tell us about

396
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Speaker 1: that experience.

397
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Speaker 2: You know, I was at city Traffic at the time,

398
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Speaker 2: because what we did when we trained, we would spend

399
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Speaker 2: about six months at a training station in uniform, and

400
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Speaker 2: then the next six months we'd go into places like

401
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Speaker 2: D twenty four. We'd have to work for police radio

402
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,320
Speaker 2: for a month, we'd get a look in at the

403
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Speaker 2: fingerprint section. We'd go and work the traffic Operations group

404
00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,840
Speaker 2: or the highway patrol. And there was a stint where

405
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Speaker 2: we would work city traffic and we put on a

406
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Speaker 2: nice white cap and the big white gloves and direct

407
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Speaker 2: traffic for a month.

408
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Speaker 1: That's fun.

409
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Speaker 2: It was great fun. I mean, it's probably it's probably

410
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Speaker 2: one of the best jobs that they got rid of.

411
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Speaker 2: I think I think they should still do it. I

412
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Speaker 2: don't think half the police out there actually known how

413
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Speaker 2: to direct traffic anymore, you know, And I remember there

414
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Speaker 2: it used to be a cinema down the road, and

415
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Speaker 2: I was actually believen and I was in the tall

416
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Speaker 2: at the cinema when the bomb went off. I immediately

417
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Speaker 2: heard the chatter and I remember running out and running

418
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Speaker 2: up to Russell Street, which is about two blocks away,

419
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Speaker 2: and I thought as I got there, I thought there

420
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Speaker 2: was other explosions going off. It was actual the tires

421
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Speaker 2: that were burning and expoding, and I think that was

422
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Speaker 2: about about lunchtime or one o'clock in the afternoon, and

423
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Speaker 2: it was total carnage. I could not believe what I

424
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Speaker 2: was seen, and I remember being I actually worked that

425
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Speaker 2: day for about another eight hours. I was involved in

426
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Speaker 2: a line search later in the evening, just before dark,

427
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 2: and found a bit of engine casing that had flun

428
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Speaker 2: over Ross's Street into the next block. That's how big

429
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,639
Speaker 2: the exposure was. But from when I first arrived the

430
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Speaker 2: accidents and finding that engine block must have been about

431
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Speaker 2: five or six hours, and I cannot remember what I

432
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Speaker 2: did in between that. I've got absolutely no idea. That's

433
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Speaker 2: how busy the day was.

434
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Speaker 1: Just the chaos. You're called up in the chaos? Is

435
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Speaker 1: that what you're talking about there?

436
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 2: Well, I think so, and I think that's exactly right.

437
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 2: I think there's so much information coming in your little

438
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 2: brain that it can't store and hold everything, so just

439
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 2: I'm sure it just goes straight out the other side.

440
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 1: It was such a it was such a violent attack,

441
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 1: and like it was attacking police, cardbomb out the front

442
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 1: of the head bulders.

443
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 2: And solely against the police. And you know, I mean,

444
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 2: I think, I don't know, I can't remember the timeline

445
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 2: of when there was a consulate bombing in Melbourne around

446
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,160
Speaker 2: about that time, and I'm not sure whether anyone ever

447
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 2: remembers any other bombing in Melbourne. So it's sort of like,

448
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 2: you know, we used to watch it on TV overseas

449
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 2: about car bombings over more than Ireland. Never ever thought

450
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 2: that we'd have a car bomb planted outside of police

451
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:36,479
Speaker 2: station in Melbourne.

452
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: And the fact that at that point in time, I

453
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 1: would imagine you're starting to feel like, Okay, it's police,

454
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: and that almost gives you seem against us feeling when

455
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: police are being targeted.

456
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's a really tentative time for the

457
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 2: next couple of months. I remember that within two or

458
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 2: three weeks I actually transferred into my stint of d

459
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 2: twenty four there, which is on the second floor above

460
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,120
Speaker 2: with the car bombing. Yeah, I remember walking to work

461
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: and the scale in Russell Street were still there, and

462
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 2: you know, I'm looking at the window and at D

463
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 2: twenty four and thinking they're all brand new windows because

464
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 2: they've been blind out. So even once the road was

465
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,439
Speaker 2: cleaned and people are starting to sort of move on,

466
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 2: there was always little reminders about what had happened. And

467
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 2: I think you could probably still go to Russell Street

468
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 2: now it's now a hotel or some sort of accommodation

469
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 2: and its chips out of big bricks.

470
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: D twenty four. What's that when you talk D twenty four.

471
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 2: D twenty four is our comms aroom, our Commons office.

472
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 1: When you after your secondary training, you came back out

473
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 1: and then you went into at some stage in your

474
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 1: career a unit for prospective detectives. We called it all

475
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 1: sorts of different things up up in New South Wales,

476
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 1: but we've got the same situation where you're like a

477
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 1: proactive team. You're out and about, you're dressing in casual

478
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: gears and gear and getting around.

479
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was about two years. I was lucky that

480
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 2: I had a really good mentor and an old, crusty,

481
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 2: old detective homicide squad detective that got promoted Avondale Heights

482
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 2: as a sergeant, and for some reason he wanted to

483
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 2: be or get seriously involved in my development. I remember

484
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 2: when I finished that training session where you go a

485
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 2: month at different places. You usually go to a new

486
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: training station to get a different experience, and I was

487
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 2: dying to go to new training station because Avonde Heights

488
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 2: I thought was very quiet. But lo and behold, I

489
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 2: ended up going back to Avende Heights again. I couldn't

490
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 2: work out why. And even after my training and I

491
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 2: got permanently stationed somewhere, all my squad mates were going

492
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: to different stations, and I went back to Abada hEDS

493
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,199
Speaker 2: for the third time. And it turns out it was

494
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 2: this sergeant that had contacted the academy and said that

495
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 2: he wanted me to keep returning to Abdel Heights because

496
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 2: he hadn't finished developing me yet. And I never knew

497
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 2: that for years until he told me it would be

498
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 2: at least ten years later, and he was in the

499
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 2: course of that he pushed the right buttons to actually

500
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 2: transmitt for me to that plane closed unit for a

501
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 2: twelve month period, which was usually going to people that

502
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 2: depend in five or six years. So I was lucky

503
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 2: in that case to actually get that job, which was

504
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: another eye opener for me. And again I think I

505
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 2: was maybe twenty one, you know, twenty one drawing and

506
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 2: playing police car and playing clothes, busting down doors and

507
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 2: smashing the windows.

508
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: You reference. The team is like Starsky and Hutch. I

509
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: think we in New South Wales called it twenty one

510
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: jump Street.

511
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I could record it twenty one drunk straight

512
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: for the age. I was.

513
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: Like, you're doing a lot of warrants and that type

514
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: of stuff that always makes for exciting times.

515
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean warrants back then were a bit

516
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 2: easier to get them what they are now. You know,

517
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 2: you to type up a warrant and the old royal

518
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 2: typewriter smash the keys so I can go through three

519
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 2: layers of paper and three layers of carbon paper and

520
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 2: take the warrant to the crusty old Jopu who has

521
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 2: a full time job. So you go and see him

522
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 2: at his house, give your evidence and he signs the

523
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: one and away while he's on his skiff stotch. It

524
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,239
Speaker 2: was a different, different time back then. And we were

525
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: to execute a warrant every couple of days. There were

526
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: every couple of shifts. It was flat out.

527
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: Was he and that I think at that particular point

528
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: in time, I've never seen people in those squads that

529
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: are not enjoying it. And I think you said that

530
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: was you couldn't believe you were getting paid to do this.

531
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 1: Car chases, warrants, YEP, arresting the bad guys.

532
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, amazing, And still I still look back at it

533
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 2: with great fondness and think, you know, I wish I

534
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: was that age again doing that again. Incredible fun and

535
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: then the adrenaline was just amazing, and I think you

536
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 2: sort of almost got addicted to it.

537
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 1: We've talked about traffic accidents. Domestic disputes are always a

538
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: hard one, and you had you had one particular domestic

539
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: dispute that you went to Michael Gretch. I think he's

540
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: tell us about that because that's that's sad for a

541
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: lot of reasons.

542
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the biggest story than what appears in the

543
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: book too. I mean, Michael Gretch, we got called to

544
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: the house because there was what people thought were gunshots,

545
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 2: and at that time I was in at St. Alban's

546
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: police station in uniform, and that probably at that moment

547
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 2: in time, probably had more domestics per head than the

548
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 2: now the police station in the country. I think it

549
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: was just ridiculous. It was a real melting pot. And

550
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 2: so he rushed up there and parked beside the house

551
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 2: and snuck up around the side and got him through

552
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: the front door. And this guy and Michael Gretch was

553
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 2: lounding on the couch smoking a cigarette and Yeah, I

554
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 2: had this weird look on his face, and I'd actually

555
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:48,479
Speaker 2: sit to him. Who else is in the house? Had

556
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 2: a firearm and at the time said his wife said

557
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 2: where is You know, I can't remember what he now

558
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: exactly what he says to me, but you're looking for

559
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: a fan in the backyard. What he'd done has had

560
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 2: an argument with her and he went and got his

561
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:11,479
Speaker 2: his pump action shotgun, and he'd taken her out and

562
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 2: forced her out in the backyard. And I'm not sure

563
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 2: what he shot at first, but he definitely shot both

564
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: her knees out, then her arms, and the last thing

565
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: he did was shoot her in the head and killer.

566
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 2: So he effectively tortured this lady yeah to death before

567
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 2: he killed her and we of course arrested him that

568
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: something we didn't know at the time that he had

569
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 2: his order that was in the house that had seen

570
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 2: all this and had run to the house next door,

571
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: which was just added this this other element to the

572
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: whole day really, so we'd made sure that she was

573
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: looked after. And remember the look on his face. And

574
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: you know, when I first entered this house and finally

575
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: arrested him, I thought, God, I wish you had a

576
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,239
Speaker 2: firearm because I'd like to finish you off. He was

577
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: just he was an art and you know, smiling like

578
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: a cheshire cat. I remember about to walk him out

579
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: the door, and the wife before she died, had managed

580
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: to get a phone call to her father saying I'm worried,

581
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: please come over. So I opened the door in the

582
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: area is he wanted to see his his daughter. So

583
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: I'm actually tell him that his daughter was dead. And

584
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: there's two side stories. So that the poor Copple that

585
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: I was working with at the time, Tim Luschak, it

586
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: was a few years later he pulled over a car

587
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 2: on a freeway in the Western Highway, stopped on a bridge,

588
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: and Tim had got it now to tell the person

589
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 2: in the car to move off the bridge. There's two

590
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: dangerous and another car come up behind, didn't see the

591
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: flashing lights. The police car hit it and it actually

592
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 2: collided with him and threw him Tim over the bridge

593
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: onto the freeway and he died. And you so this

594
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: this story never ends, and you remember that another thing

595
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: about this job. You're probably going to ask this, but

596
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: I remember a week later, this guy, my call Brett,

597
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: was out on bail, reporting at the police station three times.

598
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. I look back in double checks that I've got

599
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: the right name, because I'm thinking, how the hell has

600
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: that person got got bail?

601
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: Yep. I remember answering the watchhouse at Saint Alban's and

602
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 2: there he is waiting to sign the Bible because he's

603
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,719
Speaker 2: reporting on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I couldn't.

604
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: And that's the creup that you've arrested for murdering.

605
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: His wife, torturing and murder. Yeah, and a wise old

606
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 2: couple years later said everyone can get bail, and they can.

607
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: They can. But in a situation like that, I think

608
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: he would have foregne he's right for bail. He ended

609
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: up getting convicted and serving when I say a sentence

610
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: that probably not long enough, but we don't dictate how

611
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: long now, we don't get put.

612
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: In twelve years. I don't know how long he served. Yeah,

613
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 2: probably the best part of that story, Becauzoo is the

614
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 2: silver lining in it. He'd actually shared a jail cell

615
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: with what we called I think we called this guy

616
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 2: the societyicular. He killed his parents in Maldne. They quite

617
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: well off and he killed them, and I think he's

618
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: doing about twenty thirty years at time, and he shared

619
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: a jailso with this bloke, and he got involved with

620
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: a bunch of guys in jail at the time, including

621
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: him and also a guy that was a bit of

622
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 2: a conman. When Michael Gretch had finally finished his sentence,

623
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 2: he'd got together with some of these guys that had

624
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: served time with and he become his own loan shark.

625
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 2: He was learning the money and he learnt one of them,

626
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: this con man, sixty odd thousand dollars and said, you've

627
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 2: got to pay me a couple of months otherwise you

628
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 2: need to sign the house over to me. Now, of

629
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: course the guy had gambled the money, he couldn't pay

630
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 2: him back. So the silver lining is this con man

631
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 2: had decided to tell Michael Gretch that he's got this

632
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: great business deal where he's going to go and grow

633
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: a massive drug crop and pay Michael Rits back for

634
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: not only the drug crop profit but also what he

635
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 2: owed and asked him to come out and see the

636
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: drug crop. So Michael Rix went out the drug crop

637
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: and that borrow the money and his two mates working

638
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: over the head with the hammer and dumped his body

639
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: in Melton Well. So Michael Gretx finally got what he deserved.

640
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: Speaking to the father coming around, I could imagine what's

641
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: going through father's mind getting the call to start with,

642
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: coming around seeing police at the scene, and then you

643
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: have to have to tell him that it's his daughter

644
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: and she's she's dead.

645
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: You know, no couple likes to deliver a death message.

646
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: But I think that I've done my fair share there

647
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: a certain degree that having it happened instantly without any

648
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,959
Speaker 2: prior thought makes a hell of a lot easier than

649
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: having to drive half an hour thinking about what you're

650
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: about to do.

651
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear what you're saying, because that that drive

652
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: and when you pull up out the front of the

653
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: place and then you walking up the driveway and you've

654
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: got it written all over your face and you know

655
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: you're about to shadow someone's life.

656
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

657
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: That's not good, is it?

658
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 2: And you run through your head how a you're going

659
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: to say it? Yeah, And it doesn't matter how your

660
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: plan it because it's all going to be a result

661
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: of what they say when you tell them, and that

662
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: varies from crying to violence.

663
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: You had a mentor called Bob. Was that the person

664
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: you're talking about?

665
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 2: Gob Croxted?

666
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: He ended up self harming.

667
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, he committed suicide years after leaving the job.

668
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: Do we know what that was about?

669
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 2: No? I never really sort of wanted to find out.

670
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: You know, Bob was an interesting fellow, his homicide squad

671
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 2: detective back in the eighties. Before he got to the sergeant.

672
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 2: He'd been shot in the seventies. He's got shot by

673
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: a cook in the hip. Had a very interesting past

674
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: and he retired after probably I think about thirty years service,

675
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: worked for the Australia Post.

676
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: It sounds like he was a good role model and

677
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: mental for.

678
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 2: You, exceptionally good detective. Apparently. I think they've actually named

679
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 2: the Ducks of the Detective Training Skill course in Melbourne

680
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 2: for all detectives. I think they've named the Ducks Award

681
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 2: after Bob Croxford.

682
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 1: Okay, so we've got a sense of yeah, you're looking

683
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: for more excitement at this stage, you're looking for something else,

684
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: You're chasing, chasing something. How did you get interested in

685
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: the air wing? How did that? I know you said

686
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: your old man was in the RAF, so you're probably

687
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: looking at planes flying around. But what was the attraction

688
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: to the air wing?

689
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 2: Well? I first saw my first telicopter in the mid

690
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: seventies when I was at Edinburgh, living in a place

691
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: called Smithfield plane to Elizabeth, which is another story altogether

692
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 2: in South Australia. So I knew what the Iroquois or

693
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: the Huey helicopter was because back in the mid seventies

694
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: the helicopters in the military flame by the air, so

695
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: I knew exactly what I thought. They were quite exciting things,

696
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 2: and I distinctly remember it flying over our house and

697
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: the doors were back and there was a crewmen in

698
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 2: the back and I'm pretty sure he was waving at me,

699
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 2: or he's waving at someone, probably some female around the corner.

700
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 2: But I was out the front yard thinking that block

701
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 2: she just waved at me. So I always had that

702
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 2: in the back of my memory, but I never ever

703
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 2: thought about transferring to the Police Airing. I didn't actually

704
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 2: at the time know a lot about it. When we

705
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 2: worked in Avondale Heights were at this spot that was

706
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 2: in line with the runway of Melbourne Airport, so we

707
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: very rarely saw the police helicopter come over to help

708
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: us on jobs because it was r underwhere all the

709
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: big big aircraft are landing. I remember reading that there

710
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 2: was vacancies at the Police Airing and then thought, wow,

711
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 2: do I become a detective and apply for detective training

712
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 2: skill like my mentor wanted me to do. Or I'll

713
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: go and see if I can work at a helicopter

714
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 2: for a few years. And I think the pool towards

715
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 2: that helicopters a little bit too great, So you know,

716
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 2: I before goo that sort of typical plan that they

717
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: expect for most coppers to become detectives and decided to

718
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: fly around in helicopters.

719
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: Had you met anyone in the air wing up until

720
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: that time.

721
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 2: No, we believe it or not. They didn't suggest if

722
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 2: you wanted to come out and you wanted to apply,

723
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 2: you should come out and have a fly and back

724
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 2: then you could request anyone could request to go for

725
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: flying the police helicopter for a police member. So I

726
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 2: did that. I went for a two hour flight at

727
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 2: time and thought, yeah, this is a pretty good job.

728
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: And that was it. So a two hour flight in

729
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 2: the helicopter, met two people, a pilot and the air observer,

730
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: and that was it. I went there and I did

731
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: fourteen years.

732
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 1: What was the process to get in because I would

733
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: imagine it's a limited positions obviously, and was at hard

734
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: to get in? Yeah?

735
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: It was. I made a couple of attempts. I never

736
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 2: was not found not suitable. But back then I made

737
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: each vacancy. It's about eighty applicants. I'm not sure on

738
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: the scheme of things whether that is a lot. I

739
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: would assume it is for the position, and you know,

740
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 2: I had to do a physical and included swimming. You

741
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,240
Speaker 2: had to do the regular push ups, set ups, chin ups.

742
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 2: They got you to carry stretches, they got you to

743
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 2: climb righte. I got to hold your breath and swim

744
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 2: under water. They got you to swim laps in tread water.

745
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 2: And after that, if you got through that, they interviewed you.

746
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: Tell us what the role is You've got how long

747
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:42,919
Speaker 1: have you been in the Cops at this stage when

748
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: you got the position.

749
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 2: It's about almost eight years I think in general duty's uniform,

750
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 2: which is probably quite average for someone going to the

751
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: police air wing, about eight years. There have been some

752
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 2: that have got less and been some that have got

753
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: way more than eight years, but I think at that

754
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 2: time about eight nine, maybe ten years was average. You know.

755
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 2: The role as an air observer, which they now called

756
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 2: tactical fly oprits, was to be in command of the

757
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 2: police aircraft for police operations. So they certainly wanted someone

758
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 2: with the granting in general duties and a lot of experience,

759
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 2: because that's what your main bread butter was to do.

760
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: It was to support general duties policing from the air.

761
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: So you got the pilot that's obviously in charge of

762
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: the helicopter, but your role there is to be that

763
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 1: conduit between the pilot and the helicopter and what's needed

764
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: from a police point of view.

765
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean probably about half the pilots at the

766
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: police airing that time weren't trained coppers, brought in as

767
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,439
Speaker 2: pilots and sworn into the police force and their job

768
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 2: was to fly in aircraft and the job of the

769
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 2: observer was to make sure the aircraft did police were

770
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: properly in support of the ground troops. And it was

771
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 2: a good mix because you don't want the person in

772
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 2: control of the safety of the aircraft to be the

773
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: same person that's in control of what it does operationally,

774
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 2: because there is always going to be a conflict. You

775
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: want to make sure that the helicopters flowing within its

776
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: limits and legally and safely, whereas a copper is going

777
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 2: to want to push limits to get the job done

778
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 2: and arrest of crook. You don't want that to be

779
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 2: the same place.

780
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: If I could see how that could end is.

781
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: If the pilot, imagine if the copper was the one

782
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: that wanted to catch the crook, was the guy that

783
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 2: was in charge of the safety of the aircraft and

784
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 2: it turned to ship very quickly.

785
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: Why did you land that helicopter on the car type situation?

786
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 2: Pretty much? Yeah, half the pilots there were actually trained

787
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: toppers and actually we're observers and got their pilot's license

788
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: and they relinquish a bit of power right when they

789
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 2: swapped seats.

790
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: Once they become become the pilot. I'm just thinking that

791
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: the type of jobs where I've had use of the

792
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: helicopter in criminal investigations. And I remember going up We're

793
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: looking at her after some notorious killers, and they had

794
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: a place hidden out in the bush and we had

795
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: to go in there covertly, but we wanted to look

796
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: at the place or locate the place and get the bearings.

797
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: And I remember that that was an interesting, interesting trip

798
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: and different things without giving away methodology, how they flew

799
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: in so that we couldn't be seen, and different things.

800
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: And I don't think I'm getting anyone into trouble. But

801
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: when we're coming back to Sydney, they said do you

802
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: want the direct route or the scenic route? We clearly

803
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 1: said the scenic route, and.

804
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 2: So under goes. It was low level along the coast.

805
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 1: Down through mountain ranges over the river.

806
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's not illegal, but it doesn't make

807
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: life a lot more enjoyable.

808
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: But I could imagine, like that's your day to day job.

809
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to picture what is tell us what

810
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: the wrong are the type of jobs that you get.

811
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 2: I suppose car chases are a big part of police

812
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: operations with helicopters. Any sort of cook that's to camp

813
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 2: from a car or a house, or suspect hanging around

814
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 2: a house, missing people, missing kids, probably a big bread

815
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 2: and butter. We used to do a lot of school alarms.

816
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 2: You know, if a school alarm went off, we were

817
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 2: in the air and could get there quickly. So that

818
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: was pretty much a general duties, basic jobs. We also

819
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 2: had to provide a search and rescue capability in the

820
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 2: state of Victoria, so you know, you always had to

821
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 2: have equipment in the back that enabled you to pull

822
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 2: some out out of the water off the old or boat,

823
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 2: or someone was injured in the hills or lost. It's

824
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: all those search and rescue tasks. And then of course

825
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: a couple of shifts a week you might be working

826
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 2: the air ambulance and game and fatal accidents or industrial

827
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 2: accidents or people that have got injuries that need to

828
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: get to hospital quickly.

829
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 1: Diverse, diverse or the work.

830
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,720
Speaker 2: Isn't it Yeah, Like I said, I mean police works

831
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: like that, but at the air when it's even even wighter,

832
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: a wider scope of possibilities.

833
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: What do you give us? Give us a rundown and

834
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: the car chase you would remember, like, I think that'd

835
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: be great. There in the car you're in the helicopter.

836
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,399
Speaker 2: Well, there's two periods that you can talk about car

837
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: chase and the technology and the advantages of it. When

838
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 2: I first went to the police airing in ninety two,

839
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 2: we used to navigate the helicopter using a street directory.

840
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

841
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, if we're going to the country and doing the

842
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: search and rescue, believer not. We used to have a

843
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 2: chart is to draw a line between where we were

844
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 2: and where we want to go, use the compass, get

845
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 2: a heading and set the compass and then time it.

846
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 2: That's how archaic it was. Our first GPS we got

847
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 2: was just full of hospital harda so it used to

848
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 2: be worked on the air ambulance. Where we wherever we are,

849
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 2: we used to.

850
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,240
Speaker 1: Go nowhere the nearest hospital.

851
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 2: That was the length of navigation was what we would

852
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 2: call Melway's street directory. We had to look the street

853
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 2: up in the back, go the right matt and find it.

854
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 2: So chase a car. You can imagine chasing a car

855
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 2: and you've got a map in front of you. And

856
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 2: once the helicopter at that stage back then and I

857
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 2: think the same today, got overhead and the helicopter called

858
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 2: the chase as we had the best view, and you

859
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 2: can imagine the chaos and a helicopter seeing it four

860
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: hundred feet at night, it spotlight on observer looking out

861
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: the window, trying to find the street in the street directory.

862
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 2: It was. It was incredibly difficult, absolute chaos in the helicopter.

863
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 2: But great fun.

864
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, great, great fun. But there's not much room in

865
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: the in the helicopter as noisy you got your headphones on,

866
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: it would be a lot of a lot of chaos.

867
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember one day I was chasing a car

868
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 2: and it started at Plads the park which is up

869
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 2: near the airports, and it ended up in the city.

870
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 2: I went for about forty minutes. Yeah, And at that

871
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 2: stage I think we had a Yeah, we had one

872
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: of those thermal cameras. We finally got one of them,

873
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 2: so it must have been about ninety five by ninety six,

874
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 2: but we were still using the street directory and them

875
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 2: because we had this camera and we were all recording

876
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 2: the video and the audio in the aircraft was also

877
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 2: being recorded.

878
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: That can be embarrassing.

879
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 2: It was. I remember being very very calm when this

880
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 2: chase was going on. When I was on the radio

881
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 2: to our communications, being very calm and sedate, making a comunication,

882
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: Crystal talking about how he's just gone through that intersection.

883
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 2: He's doing about seventy k's he's approaching this street, and

884
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 2: then the radio Shatow cuts and I'm Telle on the

885
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 2: pilot yelling out and telling him what to do. So

886
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: did you fucking see that? And nearly hit that car?

887
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 2: Unfortunately that tuck got out and they played it at

888
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: the academy to the new recruits for years, saying exactly

889
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 2: basically identifying how chaotic a chase can be. What you

890
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 2: don't know of behind the scenes for a long time.

891
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 1: I can imagine, But that is what goes on, isn't

892
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: it like the radio. We all all try to be

893
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 1: professional on the on the radio, and then when you're

894
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: not talking on the radio, Fuck did you see that?

895
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I was notorious for it. I thought you

896
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 2: all were, but it's.

897
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: Just you know, being caught.

898
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 2: One rule there is just don't record your copy conversations.

899
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Gary Jubilan here. I want to get

900
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: more out of I Catch Killers, Then you should head

901
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: over to our new video feed on Spotify where you

902
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: can watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search

903
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: for I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and

904
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: start watching today repelling when you're down getting bodies out.

905
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: And in part two we're going to talk about a

906
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: rescue you did in Bass Strait, but there are other

907
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 1: ones in leading up to that. People are trapped, washed

908
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: off rocks, fishermen washed off rocks. One that sort of

909
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 1: resonated with me that you spoke about in the book

910
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: of of bringing a body up and you've got is

911
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 1: it called the stoop?

912
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: This strop a horse collar.

913
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and picking up a deceased body and you're flying

914
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: up with the body out of the water and different things.

915
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 2: I think, you know, it's hard to remember. I should

916
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 2: look it up. I can't remember what my first winter

917
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 2: rescue was. I've got a feeling it was two bodies

918
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 2: that a fishermen that were wearing waiters in their boat

919
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 2: in the ocean and they fell in the way it

920
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: is filled up and they just drowned. And you know,

921
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 2: it wasn't the whence we had to do. And fortunately

922
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: the air ambulance had been called down there and I

923
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 2: was on the police helicopter. So there was two el

924
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: cutters down there. They'd found these guys. One there was

925
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 2: three in title that died and one of the police

926
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 2: launched come down and recovered one out of the water,

927
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 2: but they couldn't get the other two because I was

928
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 2: stuck in and being washed up against rocks. And usually

929
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: what would happen is, you know, you'd unfortunately have to

930
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 2: leave them there until such time as they washed on

931
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 2: the rocks or washed out to where someone could access it. Well,

932
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 2: the only one the way would be to use a

933
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 2: fishing ethod gat them, which is just totally unacceptable. They'd

934
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 2: ask me if I'd be prepared to go into the

935
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 2: water and winch out the two bodies, and they lift

936
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 2: it up to me. Now, there's this unwritten rule in

937
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 2: helicopter Winter Rescues that all three of the crew have

938
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: to do it. And if someone says they don't want

939
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 2: to do it, and we never question the reason why.

940
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a safety thing and the respect thing.

941
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: I suppose that, yeah, yeah it is, I mean, and

942
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 2: it's to make sure that everyone's comfortable. You don't want

943
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 2: to put anyone. You don't want an uncomfortable pilot. You

944
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 2: certainly don't want an uncomfortable winch operating. You can't do

945
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: it with a crew them down the why that's not

946
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 2: going to be comfortable?

947
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: So breaking the rolls up. The pilot's obviously their role

948
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: the winch operator. That's the one that's lowering the rope

949
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: and lowering you down, and the other one is the

950
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 1: one that's going in the water or wherever they're going.

951
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. So there's a certain stage in

952
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 2: the winching process. Can imagine that if you're coming in

953
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 2: to win someone, whether your bodies or someone's alive or

954
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 2: onto a boat or raft. A lot of people don't realize,

955
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: but there's a certain point where the pilot can't see

956
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 2: what's blowing, so he's got to look straight out to

957
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 2: the right, and he's guided in by a commentary by

958
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 2: the winch operator who's in the back we can see,

959
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 2: so that windch operator will talk him in, I suppose,

960
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 2: through specific words to get him over the.

961
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,919
Speaker 1: Top and the person on the end of the rope.

962
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: You haven't got comms with.

963
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 2: No no, once you leave the aircraft. Back then, there

964
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 2: was no comms. I think some people use radios now

965
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 2: I don't. I'm not sure whether it's really worth it.

966
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 2: Once you're on the ground, you're near the radio, but

967
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 2: you don't have any control as a winch crewman on

968
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 2: the why you don't have any control of what's going on.

969
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 2: Your job starts when you land, so you know, I

970
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 2: got winched into the water where these two bodies were

971
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 2: getting to grab them off the rocks as they are

972
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 2: being bashed and pulled them both out. And that was

973
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 2: still my first experience and winching. And I remember the

974
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 2: same day. Later that afternoon, I got called the winch

975
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 2: a guy and his dog off a cliff only about

976
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 2: two hours later.

977
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: I always I like it when you guys bring the

978
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: dogs up to yeah, because I don't know whether you're

979
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: meant to or not, but it would be hard leaving

980
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: the dog.

981
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 2: I did actually say to this guy, I got him.

982
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 2: He was stuck on this cliff ledge and the action

983
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 2: was below, and we did what was called a cliff walk.

984
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 2: Instead of trying to winch and swing me in, they

985
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 2: winched me to the top of the cliff and then

986
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 2: I sort of walked back down the cliff while they

987
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 2: were winking out the cable and hovering the bar. And

988
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: I remember landing on this ledge and putting the winch

989
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 2: the rescues drop over him and then putting his arms.

990
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 2: I said, you hold your arms there, and I grabbed

991
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 2: the dog who was happy to see me, and I

992
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 2: plump him on top and I said, now I want

993
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 2: you to hold onto your dog, and if you let

994
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 2: go of the dog, you're going into And he was

995
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,720
Speaker 2: quite happy hold around that dog, and the dog thoroughly

996
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 2: enjoyed it. My passenger was scared shit less. The dog

997
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: loves everything.

998
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,760
Speaker 1: What are some of the reactions you get, like people,

999
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: and we're talking about saving lives here because you guys

1000
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,760
Speaker 1: aren't called out if it's not for a legitimate reason.

1001
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 1: What are some of the reactions where someone's there thinking

1002
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 1: they're going to die and then you come sliding down

1003
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: the rope and go here, I am what's the communications like?

1004
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 2: I think the reaction is usually relief. Some people are

1005
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 2: shit scared of heights and don't want to get on

1006
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,879
Speaker 2: a winch cable. To a certain point, I don't blame them.

1007
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 2: The winch cable is about five mil thick. It doesn't

1008
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 2: look that strong. Helicopters make a huge down draft and

1009
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 2: a huge noise, and I can imagine most people don't

1010
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 2: want to actually travel up that well. Yeah, but when

1011
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 2: it's their only option to get out, I think they're

1012
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 2: quite immune to it very quickly. Most people do exactly

1013
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 2: what you told them to do, and I've never had

1014
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 2: anyone say no, I don't want to get on that winch.

1015
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 1: There's an obvious risk associated They've just been up in

1016
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: the helicopter for the amount of flying hours that you're

1017
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: doing the risk associated with there, and then you're not flying.

1018
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: It's not a sight scene to it, so you're not

1019
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: flying at the best time to fly. You'd be flying

1020
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,879
Speaker 1: in storms and different things. And then add on that

1021
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: you're jumping out of the helicopter attached to a cable.

1022
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: The risk factor. Did you weigh that up? Did you

1023
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 1: like what was going through your mind? Or were you

1024
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: addicted to the excitement of it.

1025
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: Look, I love the excitement. Certain jobs you know they're risky.

1026
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 2: I mean, generally winching is relatively safe, particularly for the

1027
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: helicopter pilot and the winch operator. You know, they're well

1028
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 2: above any relative danger the crew and on the wire.

1029
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 2: The guy that's hanging there probably faces greater risk than

1030
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 2: anyone else in the crew. But you know, you've got

1031
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 2: to be comfort in your procedures and you're reasonably well

1032
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: practiced at it. It doesn't matter how difficult a winch

1033
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 2: gets with the weather or the wind or ocean. The

1034
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 2: principles are the same, and you're just going to stick

1035
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: to your training and do it. So of course, there

1036
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 2: have been a number of winches where I've been on

1037
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 2: the wire and thought, Jesus, I'm not sure I really

1038
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,240
Speaker 2: want to do this, but I'll give.

1039
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 1: It a Make for a tight crew, I would imagine

1040
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: the people that you work with, there's a lot of

1041
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: trust you've got to all put in each other.

1042
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean, and if you're sitting on a

1043
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 2: five millimeter thick wire two hundred feet below, you really

1044
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 2: have to trust the guys at the top, and we do.

1045
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 2: The good thing is that the average winch crewman's also

1046
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 2: winch operator, so next time he gets to put the

1047
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 2: other guy down the wire, it can be paid back.

1048
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 2: And now we have a bit of fun about it.

1049
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 2: I mean, you never tell someone that's your birthday, otherwise

1050
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 2: they go and take your wins training and stick you

1051
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 2: into it the mark and drag you through crap. We

1052
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 2: have a bit of fun with it.

1053
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: Well, for the tension that you guys would be going through,

1054
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: I would imagine there has to be those light moments

1055
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:47,439
Speaker 1: at humor where you have a bit of fun and

1056
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: stir each other up. Otherwise you could be hanging on

1057
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 1: too tight. I would imagine you've got to release the

1058
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 1: pressure at some sort.

1059
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,240
Speaker 2: I won't tell you too much about that.

1060
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: It might be there is.

1061
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 2: Nothing worse than having a top the crew grounded you

1062
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 2: with nothing to do practical g playing each other are

1063
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 2: bordering on criminals.

1064
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 1: All right, Look, we might take a break here, Cameron.

1065
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 1: When we come back. There's so much more to talk

1066
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: about when we haven't even started on your AFP career.

1067
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,720
Speaker 1: When we get back, I want to talk about a

1068
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 1: rescue that you're involved in in Bastraight and I'll let

1069
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,399
Speaker 1: you tell that story, but fairly intense and it's left

1070
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: the lasting impact on you. Know, all this work comes

1071
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: to the costs and post traumatic stress that you've identified

1072
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 1: late in your career. That and we might talk a

1073
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:38,879
Speaker 1: bit about that if you're comfortable with that

1074
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 2: No worries, Cheers,