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Speaker 1: So what would you do if you knew the day,

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Speaker 1: the hour, the minute, and the method of your death,

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Speaker 1: even if it was a moment fifty years, three months,

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Speaker 1: seven days, six hours, thirty two seconds from now and

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Speaker 1: peacefully in your sleep, how about it change the way

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Speaker 1: you spent today tomorrow because that time, that moment that

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Speaker 1: exists for all of us. Well, caron avoid thinking about

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Speaker 1: it because it's uncomfortable to think about. So uncomfortable to

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Speaker 1: think about. Humans have invented entire religions to solve the

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Speaker 1: problem of those uncomfortable feelings, religions which promise.

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Speaker 2: That, oh, I don't worry, it won't end. There's another

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Speaker 2: place you get to go.

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Speaker 1: There's a religion that promises on and I don't worry

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Speaker 1: it one and you get to come back and have

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Speaker 1: another go. Oh yeah, there was even one that promised

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Speaker 1: that you'd don't worry one end. You're going to get

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Speaker 1: a right on a spaceship that's hiding behind the hail commet.

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Speaker 1: I know that was a cult, but you know, cults

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Speaker 1: plus time equals religion. The whole episode about the Danila

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Speaker 1: death a couple of weeks back, and I had to

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Speaker 1: do with Darren Hayes's skull. I'll put that link in

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Speaker 1: the show notes. But the Darren Hayes line is important

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Speaker 1: for my guest today. You'll hear a moment whay, But

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Speaker 1: because I'm not alone in contemplating what it would mean

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Speaker 1: for your life if you knew the exact day, hour,

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Speaker 1: minute second method of your death. Because one of Australia's

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Speaker 1: most successful authors ever, Leanne Moriarty, she's been thinking a

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Speaker 1: lot about this too, and she's written a whole book

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Speaker 1: about it, her new book. In fact, she's my guest today.

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Speaker 1: She's fantastic. We'll get to that chat. I'll be back

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Speaker 1: after the break. Good ate, welcome and better than yesterday,

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Speaker 1: helping you make today better than yesterday since two thousand

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Speaker 1: and thirst hay My n Amslosha Ginsburg.

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Speaker 2: I'm a podcaster, I'm a best selling author.

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Speaker 1: I'm a husband, a dad, a stepdad, sitcom picture, a

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Speaker 1: game show workshopper, a dead lifter, and I'm glad.

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Speaker 2: That you're here to that I pulled mighty key was today.

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Speaker 1: I've never pulled ninety kilos, not since the third surgery.

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Speaker 1: I'm eighty one point five myself, So, as Nick Cody

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Speaker 1: would say, not bad good size. Thanks for getting on

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Speaker 1: the newsletter, the links in the show notes there. It's

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Speaker 1: also where I chat through the week about whatever else

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Speaker 1: is going on. It's nice to continue the conversation there.

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Speaker 1: There's different ways that we can do that, which I'm

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Speaker 1: grateful for. Leanne Moriart is here today. One of the

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Speaker 1: most successful authors in the world, certainly one of the

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Speaker 1: most successful authors to ever come out of Australia. She

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Speaker 1: wrote Big Little Lies, Truly Madly Guilty, A, Nine Perfect Strangers,

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Speaker 1: heaps more. Her latest book is called Here One Moment,

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Speaker 1: and it dives into exactly what we're talking about before,

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Speaker 1: what the knowledge of your own death would do for

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Speaker 1: your life, even how you think about things like free will.

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Speaker 2: It's a great chat.

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Speaker 1: She's just the best, and her connection to some her

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Speaker 1: connection to Sultana brand is particularly interesting. Enjoy the idea that, oh,

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Speaker 1: you go from zero to best seller like that is?

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Speaker 1: It's a fantasy, yes, and that you know, what would

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Speaker 1: you say about how important it is to kind of

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Speaker 1: suck a bit when you started.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's necessarily important. Some people seem to

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Speaker 2: go from zero to best seller straight away.

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Speaker 1: That's yes, and I'm sure it's more enjoyable if you've

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Speaker 1: suffered a little bit along the way. Talk about when

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Speaker 1: you get that's the other thing as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of fascinated by that. Your previous life, of

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Speaker 1: your previous life as a copywriter.

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Speaker 2: Yes, when you first.

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Speaker 1: Started, you know, do you remember walking into those buildings,

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Speaker 1: the the ACP or those you know, those kind of

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Speaker 1: buildings and going, wow, there's joint.

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Speaker 2: Into big agencies. Yeah. Well, I remember my very first

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Speaker 2: job interview. They said to me, so I was very

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Speaker 2: young and I'd only just got my license, and so

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Speaker 2: they were saying, so you might need to drive around

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Speaker 2: doing errands. And I was thinking, I don't know if

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Speaker 2: I could. I don't know if I could do that

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Speaker 2: and do anything you could. You need to change a

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Speaker 2: light globe if required, and I thought my dad always

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Speaker 2: changed the like. So, yeah, I didn't get that particular job.

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Speaker 2: I remember that glamorous when I was thinking, I've got

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Speaker 2: the ideas. I want to just come up with ideas.

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Speaker 2: I can't change a light globe for you. And then

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Speaker 2: I got a job at an agency in the city

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Speaker 2: where I was making coffee, and I do remember overhearing

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Speaker 2: my boss saying, we've got this girl. She either makes

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Speaker 2: the coffee and it's stone cold or it's boiling hot.

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Speaker 2: So I wasn't good at that either. And then my

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Speaker 2: job was all so to buy flowers, and I used

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Speaker 2: to buy them from somebody in Martin Place. There were

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Speaker 2: two people, and I'd go to the one who the

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Speaker 2: flowers were always half dead because I felt sorry for her.

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Speaker 2: So I got into trouble for that as well.

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Speaker 3: Stellar career start at what point? Who was the first

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Speaker 3: person to say to you, hang on this thing here,

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Speaker 3: this thing over here, that's the thing that you do,

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Speaker 3: not the flowers, not a coffee.

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Speaker 2: This is good. Yeah, who is that person? I don't

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Speaker 2: know who that person was. I mean, I wouldn't say

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Speaker 2: I had a stellar career in advertising. Oh I went

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Speaker 2: to another small agency. I'm trying to think now, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I know you didn't think I was much good either.

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Speaker 2: After that, I worked for a publishing company in the

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Speaker 2: marketing communications department, and I quite enjoyed that. And then

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Speaker 2: I went freelance, and then I did have some clients

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Speaker 2: who were happy with me. To be honest, during that time,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't like I was thinking I wish I could

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Speaker 2: be a best selling author. I had wanted to be

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Speaker 2: an author when I was a little girl. My sister

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Speaker 2: and I both used to love writing stories, and my

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Speaker 2: dad would commission us to write stories for him, so

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Speaker 2: he gave us our first publishing deals.

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Speaker 1: I love it. Now are we talking to Smith Corona?

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Speaker 1: Are we talking long hand?

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Speaker 2: Long hand? Oh for sure. I've still got some of

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Speaker 2: the exercise books, and I used to outsource the illustrations

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Speaker 2: to kids at school who were good at drawing. Now

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Speaker 2: what kind of subject matter? Did you a benefactor?

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Speaker 1: Your patron, as it were, I have some sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, now it needs to be about this or that.

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Speaker 2: He didn't know. He didn't say anything about the subject matter.

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Speaker 2: I've still got one that was called The Secret of

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Speaker 2: dead Man's Island, and you could tell it was very

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Speaker 2: influenced by in a Blaton. In a Blaton there was

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Speaker 2: lots of smugglers. Oh yeah, and the children the characters

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Speaker 2: spoke in a very English manner. They didn't sound like

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Speaker 2: little Aussie kids. They'd say, oh, what a jolly good ideas.

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Speaker 1: I haven't used jolly in a while. But maybe I

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Speaker 1: won't bring work it back into the routine because it's

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Speaker 1: good it's a good one having a dad who I mean,

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Speaker 1: whether he was saying it or not specifically, he was

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Speaker 1: saying to you, what you write down is worthwhile, definitely,

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Speaker 1: And you you know, I remember years ago I was

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Speaker 1: like now between big gigs and someone said to me.

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Speaker 2: I said, maybe I just creator show and it's like

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Speaker 2: it was creative show. Its like, I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 2: a show creator.

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Speaker 1: And he went he touched me on the shoulder and went,

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Speaker 1: you're a show creator?

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Speaker 2: Is that it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it, you say you are? And then to

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Speaker 1: do it so to be given permission is really important.

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Speaker 2: Yes, he was treating it with respect.

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Speaker 1: Yes, what did it mean to have that? I mean,

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Speaker 1: you don't know anything else, but I guess what do

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Speaker 1: you think that might have given you? Having a dad

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Speaker 1: that believed in you and your sister like that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you just made it seem viable that

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Speaker 2: it could be a career. But having said that, I

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Speaker 2: lost that crazy confidence that he gave me. I didn't

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Speaker 2: keep at it. As I got older, I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: dad might like my stories, but who else will like

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Speaker 2: my stories? And especially when I started to read other

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Speaker 2: people's work, I'd think, well, this is better than me,

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Speaker 2: so therefore I should, you know, what's the point of

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Speaker 2: me trying. So it wasn't until my sister, who is

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Speaker 2: the author, Jacquelin Murriarty, until she called me many many

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Speaker 2: years later and said that her first book had been

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Speaker 2: accepted for publication. Well, first of all, I was really

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Speaker 2: happy for her, because I love her dearly. But also

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Speaker 2: I was filled with a sort of sense of rage

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Speaker 2: because she had achieved our childhood dream and I hadn't

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Speaker 2: even given it a shot.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that had stopped you from giving it

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Speaker 1: a shot was.

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Speaker 2: Was just lack of confidence. It was complete lack of confidence.

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Speaker 2: But also wasn't like all that time I was thinking

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Speaker 2: I should be doing it. I've just put it aside.

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Speaker 2: So she's good. She always says that I would have

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Speaker 2: done it eventually, but I don't think I would have.

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Speaker 2: I think I needed to see her do it first.

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Speaker 2: Like what you're saying that somebody's saying to you, now

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Speaker 2: you are. I think each time somebody writes a book,

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Speaker 2: there's a little ripple effect of people around thinking, oh,

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Speaker 2: real people, ordinary people can be writers.

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Speaker 1: It was the same with this podcast. I realized one day, Oh,

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Speaker 1: the only different street people that have a podcast in me?

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Speaker 1: Is it one day they just started? Yeah, So one

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Speaker 1: day I just started, Yeah, exactly that, and now here

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Speaker 1: we are, yeah, ten years later. I know you don't

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Speaker 1: want to tell me I wrote my first outline driven

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Speaker 1: by rage.

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Speaker 2: But was that a little kicker that you had, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there was that. But then I ended up doing a

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Speaker 2: master's degree, so that was what gave me my deadlines

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Speaker 2: because then you had to write each week. So that's

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Speaker 2: what kept me going.

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Speaker 1: All right, So it's the whole No, I'm not writing

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Speaker 1: and this is just ni yes exactly, this fakes and

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Speaker 1: not trying to get published people.

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Speaker 2: This is just me. It's just my homework. That's all

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Speaker 2: it is. Ah am.

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Speaker 1: While I know we have we're lucky today because there

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Speaker 1: is a chocolate labrador in the office. There is. And

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Speaker 1: I like to say that our thinking mind and an

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Speaker 1: observing mind are very much. A thinking mind is the

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Speaker 1: labrador chasing the frisbee, and our observing mind is sitting

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Speaker 1: on the bench watching the labrador chasing the frisbee onto

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Speaker 1: a freeway. But when thinking mind's in charge, all we

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Speaker 1: can think is frisbee, frisby, frisbee. Yes, And I realize

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Speaker 1: we're going to put ourselves at bearl But the observing

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Speaker 1: mind is one that goes and makes the same noise

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Speaker 1: a treat it makes, dog goes and then ah. So similarly,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to writing, I can't possibly write that, which.

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Speaker 2: Does nice for that, I'm just making nude yeah, oh okay,

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Speaker 2: then and then what do you know?

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Speaker 1: You're like a thousand words in it now, lady.

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Speaker 2: Oh, and I still have to do that even now,

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Speaker 2: I still have to think, not you're sitting down to

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Speaker 2: write a book today, but you're sitting to just okay,

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Speaker 2: just do a paragraph and then okay, now just do

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Speaker 2: another paragraph. Because it's just too big to think I'm

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Speaker 2: writing a book today. It feels ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine how that works before you make

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Speaker 1: this your full time job. All right, there's that level

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Speaker 1: of pressure of well, you know, I want to do this,

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Speaker 1: and there's too much pressure stopping me.

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Speaker 2: I'm just running a paragraph, okay.

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Speaker 1: But when the success comes, and when the success gets bigger,

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Speaker 1: and then they're like Leonne Moriarty New York Times, not

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Speaker 1: one best seller and you're sitting down in front of

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Speaker 1: the blank screen.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's going to be a very different story and

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Speaker 4: That's why I really have to do it that same

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Speaker 4: way because I used to be you think, maybe nobody

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Speaker 4: will read this.

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Speaker 2: Now I know for a fact people will definitely read it,

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Speaker 2: millions of yes, who will have opinions. Yes, But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I still have to go back to exactly that way,

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Speaker 2: the way I used to write for Dad really just

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Speaker 2: just for the pleasure of writing. So I have to

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Speaker 2: I have to put all that aside.

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Speaker 1: Getting that first one out, the first draft as it were,

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Speaker 1: with the for the pleasure of is so important.

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Speaker 2: Trusting though, that.

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Speaker 1: There's an editor at the other end that's going to

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Speaker 1: catch you and not let anything that isn't great, yes,

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Speaker 1: go out of the door. Understanding that and having that

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Speaker 1: trust in an editor, can you talk to me for

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Speaker 1: people who haven't written a book or you know, understand

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Speaker 1: the role of the editor and the words that they

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Speaker 1: finally see. What's that relationship like?

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I preferred I don't think about

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Speaker 2: the editor actually as I'm writing. I prefer to think

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Speaker 2: that this is it that I'm writing as best as

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Speaker 2: I as I can. And then you get what's called

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Speaker 2: a structural edit, and they do that thing where they

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Speaker 2: begin with this that's that's a.

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Speaker 1: Labrador previously mentioned labrador. It's a callback from the first chapter. Now, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right, showing up at the end of the first Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right.

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Speaker 2: If you've got a labrador, it's got a market check

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Speaker 2: or yes, yes, exactly, the structural edit. Yes, so it

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Speaker 2: will begin with it's always a letter that comes with

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Speaker 2: it that says this is a masterpiece, this is amazing,

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Speaker 2: this is fantastic, and then it says you need to

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Speaker 2: fix this, this, this, this, this and this, and then

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Speaker 2: at the last paragraph, but this is a masterpiece. Compliments. Yes, exactly, exactly.

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Speaker 2: I was taught in audio school.

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Speaker 1: Yes, when I went to audio school, and they were

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Speaker 1: talking to us about how to speak to a person

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Speaker 1: if they're doing a vocal take or take or something. Hey, mate,

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Speaker 1: it's amazing, Yeah, really really great. In the second bar

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Speaker 1: where there's a key change that bend, maybe have another

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Speaker 1: run of that. Yeah, I can't wait to hear what

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Speaker 1: you're going to do with this. I'll give you a

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Speaker 1: little more in your cans here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And it works, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're so simple.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, and that's all you need. It's just

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Speaker 2: such simple creatures. And I find that I always look

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Speaker 2: at the edit and I think, oh, no, that's not right,

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Speaker 2: and I'm filled with resentment. But then I need to

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Speaker 2: let the time go by and think, oh, well, maybe

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Speaker 2: maybe that could work. And then gradually and sometimes they

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Speaker 2: might say make a suggestion, and then you'll think, no,

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Speaker 2: not that, but this, and some things I'm ever so

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Speaker 2: grateful for because I can always remember reading one particular

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Speaker 2: review that said I didn't understand this character, but then

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Speaker 2: she explained that something like the motivation, and I remember thinking, well,

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Speaker 2: thank goodness, my editor said you're going to have to

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Speaker 2: give more background to that character. So there's that, and

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Speaker 2: then there's another round of editing, which is called the

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Speaker 2: copy editing, where they go through and I'm very grateful

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Speaker 2: for this stage as well, where they say this character

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Speaker 2: had blue eyes, now he's got brown eyes. Ah, things

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Speaker 2: like that, what the timeline couldn't work. So a detailed

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Speaker 2: a person with a knife for detail goes through extraordinary

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Speaker 2: and knowing that that's on.

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Speaker 1: A part of the process, Yeah, what does that do

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Speaker 1: for you when you are putting it the first lot

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Speaker 1: down onto the page.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm just grateful that they're there. But as I say,

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Speaker 2: I try, I try to keep the character's eyes the

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Speaker 2: same color. I don't want to do it in such

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Speaker 2: a casual way thinking they'll fix this, because I'd rather

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Speaker 2: do as good a job as I can so that

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Speaker 2: they'll find you know that they won't be picking up

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Speaker 2: the obvious things.

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Speaker 1: Creativity, it's a very personal thing. Obviously, this is an

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Speaker 1: idea coming from deep within your mind. Your subconscious is

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Speaker 1: putting it together based upon everything that you've observed your

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Speaker 1: entire life and popping it out on the page.

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Speaker 2: So it is a very personal thing.

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Speaker 1: Yet, as you just mentioned, what have you learned about

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Speaker 1: taking those notes and using that as a thing to

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Speaker 1: react to, as a thing to Okay, I'll see where

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Speaker 1: you're going here, But I'm not quite sure even that

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Speaker 1: you're right. But I understand how this might be not great.

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Speaker 1: How does that play out if you're trying to get

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Speaker 1: towards a final peace having something to react to from

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Speaker 1: an editor?

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Speaker 2: I think I just have I have to allow myself

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Speaker 2: to go through that stage of thinking, no, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to change anything, it's perfect. I have to let

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Speaker 2: the thoughts sit with me. I'm lucky because I've now

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Speaker 2: got three editors, so different publishers, so the Australian, my

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Speaker 2: US and my UK editors. So if they're all three

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Speaker 2: separately saying the same thing, then that's pretty obvious that

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Speaker 2: this is something I need to higher council exactly exactly.

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Speaker 1: Kind of scroll comes down.

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Speaker 2: So it's trying to work out what is it that

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Speaker 2: that's just a matter of pride that I don't want

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Speaker 2: to change and what's right. It's always still it's my

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Speaker 2: choice of what I need to what. Yeah, it's always

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Speaker 2: my decision. But yeah, mostly I take I take all

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Speaker 2: the suggestions. I'm not somebody who responds well to criticism.

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Speaker 2: I can remember in my corporate life having a boss

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Speaker 2: who did one of the performance appraisal and he said

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Speaker 2: to me, just one thing, Leone, seems like you don't

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Speaker 2: respond too well to criticism. And I said, what are

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Speaker 2: you talking about. Give me give me an example of

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Speaker 2: how I don't respond for criticism. Obviously, thereby demonstrating that

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Speaker 2: I did not respond well to criticism at all.

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Speaker 1: But has to I think there has to be a

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Speaker 1: part of that that to be a person who says

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Speaker 1: I am.

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Speaker 5: A author, I am a screenwriner, I am a singer songwriter,

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Speaker 5: there has to be an amount of self belief that

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Speaker 5: is greater than a person who otherwise would not take

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Speaker 5: that stick.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, you're right, So you have to go into

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Speaker 2: that first draft with complete self confidence and think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm doing this, and then go back with a more

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Speaker 2: critical eye.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned the use of time in that process and

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Speaker 1: allowing yourself time for.

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Speaker 2: Those initial.

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Speaker 1: Responses to how long did it take you to learn

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Speaker 1: that I just need a few hours, days, weeks?

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Speaker 2: Oh, I guess, I guess a few books. Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: I mean in the early books, you're also just so

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Speaker 2: grateful to be published, and so you're more likely to

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Speaker 2: to just do what you're told. It's probably in the

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Speaker 2: middling books where I'm starting to think I'm pretty good.

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Speaker 2: I don't need to be And of course they're not

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Speaker 2: always right. Well, you know, there are some things where

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Speaker 2: one editor has said I don't like this, and they've

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Speaker 2: completely contradicted each other. So I've gone one way, and

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Speaker 2: then you can see on the reviews some readers saying

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Speaker 2: exactly what that one editor said, but other readers loving

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Speaker 2: what I ended up with. So it's not like there's

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Speaker 2: an objective answer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when you in your previous life before you started

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Speaker 1: writing this, in the world of copywriting, and it's all storytelling. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: whoever put I'm loving it together. That's three words, yes,

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Speaker 1: And it's being.

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Speaker 2: Concise and powerful and because people don't want to read

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Speaker 2: advertising copies, so you've got to give them a reason

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Speaker 2: to read it. So I think it probably did make

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Speaker 2: me a commercial writer.

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Speaker 1: Well, it also helps, I'm sure the amount of flight

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Speaker 1: miles that you had doing that gear and the amount

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Speaker 1: of notes dare I say from clients, and the amount

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Speaker 1: of campaigns that worked or didn't work. You kind of

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Speaker 1: get an idea of like, ah, okay, yes there's an

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Speaker 1: arc to this. Yeah, it has to be some sort

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Speaker 1: of value prop at some point, and that's the same

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Speaker 1: with any kind of writing. Here's why it's interesting for

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Speaker 1: you to read to the end of this chapter, or

381
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Speaker 1: here's why it's interesting for you to watch to the

382
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Speaker 1: end of this scene, let alone, film alone TV show.

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Speaker 1: So what kind of things from that time of your

384
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Speaker 1: career do you think still serve you now?

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00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:31,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think just making every sentence work, so you know,

386
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Speaker 2: the art directors didn't want any copy on their beautiful

387
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Speaker 2: ads so that they want a short copy. So it's

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Speaker 2: probably it probably made me a puncture writer. I don't

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Speaker 2: know how it would have changed me if I'd been

390
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Speaker 2: a journalist or some other profession. Yeah, but as I say,

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Speaker 2: I think it probably that's why I write commercial fiction

392
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Speaker 2: as opposed to literary fiction with long, languid, lingering sentences,

393
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Speaker 2: because I'd have people saying, chop, chop, chop, hang commercial,

394
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Speaker 2: hang on what.

395
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Speaker 1: There's no thing at the bookshop that says commercial versus literary.

396
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Speaker 2: This is like an internal no, not just internal, it's

397
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Speaker 2: part of the industry.

398
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Speaker 1: Really.

399
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Speaker 2: Yeah, people, I'm definitely put in that category of commercial fiction.

400
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Speaker 1: And what's the well it means I sell, it's great,

401
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 1: which is job.

402
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 2: And I guess the literary authors would say they write well,

403
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 2: they win more literary awards and things like that.

404
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 1: So they're going to run out of room on a

405
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Speaker 1: very small shelf because they can't afford a bigger house

406
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 1: for all those trophies.

407
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Speaker 2: Some people manage both. Some people some people do get

408
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Speaker 2: the awards and sell lots of copies.

409
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Speaker 1: So I'm like, I'll take a life not in a

410
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Speaker 1: caravan park in twenty years, please.

411
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Speaker 2: I do. I like to sell. And because my father

412
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 2: was a self made small businessman, I sort of that's

413
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Speaker 2: my background.

414
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Speaker 1: Did he ever come at year for a percentage on

415
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 1: the early investments?

416
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 2: He did? He used to say that all and he

417
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 2: went here and my mum went to one particular event

418
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Speaker 2: and they ended up signing books and around them. They've

419
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 2: got a beautiful photo of them both with people lining up.

420
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Speaker 2: But they loved it.

421
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Speaker 1: I was chatting with them this morning. When I told

422
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Speaker 1: her I was coming to chat with you today, I

423
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 1: happened to know the person who works in copywriting who

424
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: writes on the outside of the cardboard boxes for who

425
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Speaker 1: gives a crap the toilet paper company. Oh, the mail

426
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 1: lord of toilet paper company. And it is extraordinary.

427
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 2: What's on the outside of this cupboard box? Right?

428
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Speaker 1: It is like, please recycle me, and by that I

429
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Speaker 1: mean turn me into a spaceship.

430
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Speaker 2: Things like this. Yeah, it's very, very very clever.

431
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Speaker 1: You have written on the back of boxes in your life,

432
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Speaker 1: haven't you.

433
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 2: Oh the Sultana brand box. Yes, yes, a healthy head

434
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 2: start in the day is a healthy head start to life?

435
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, I know.

436
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 1: Now is this pre PowerPoint or is there literally like

437
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: a big a frame?

438
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 2: I think.

439
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

440
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 2: We used to do a lot of.

441
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 1: A lot of the did you watch Mad Men in

442
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: twitch I love.

443
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: Yes, I was a little bit after the mad Men time,

444
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 2: but yeah.

445
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: But you're definitely in ponytails and white BMW convertibles.

446
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: Well, there's there's another world of advertising, of not quite

447
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,959
Speaker 2: as glamorous a world. I did a lot of direct

448
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: mail and that sort of writing junk mail, so that's

449
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 2: even harder. You've got to try and get them. You know,

450
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 2: they've only got so many seconds. You've got to get

451
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 2: something on the envelope, and they've only got so many

452
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: seconds before it goes straight in the bin.

453
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: And this is pre recycling too, so bird landfill.

454
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: Yep, exactly. Wow.

455
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got to say, like all of those things,

456
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 1: all of that skill set is extraordinary, valuable to what

457
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: you do now. And I just I guess why I'm

458
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: spending time.

459
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 2: On it is.

460
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: I just wouldn't want people to think that whatever they're

461
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: doing now, even though it might not be the thing,

462
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,239
Speaker 1: they totally love what they're doing learning while they do

463
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: this thing in their twenties or thirties, that could serve

464
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 1: as everything you need, oh for sure, as the backgrounding

465
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: for whatever it is you have.

466
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think most people find that in

467
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: their careers that they even if they've ended up doing

468
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 2: something completely different, they're taking something from their former career. Yeah. Yeah,

469
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: but I have sometimes regretted not doing journalism because that's

470
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 2: what I said, or through my schooling, I thought I

471
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: was going to be Yarn event. She had great hair.

472
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: I loved her and never gave anyone. She gave no quarter.

473
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: No, she was a Yeah. I used to say so

474
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: because she'd say, no, I'm young, event, and so I

475
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 2: used to say at school, I used to say, and

476
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 2: I'm Leanne Dubarn. I have created this name, but then

477
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't know why I thought I would

478
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: have been good at that, because I wasn't very interested

479
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 2: in current affairs, very good in the new book.

480
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: I can only imagine that when you're you, when you're

481
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 1: a well sold author and having dabbled and publishing myself

482
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: and doubling again at the moment, there's quite a lead

483
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 1: time on this kind of stuff. When someone says five

484
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: years ago, okay, leone, you know, mid twenty four, we

485
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 1: need something.

486
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 2: What have you got?

487
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: How do you even start to begin to How do

488
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: you know what you're going to want to write about?

489
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: Why then or what will be relevant? No?

490
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 2: I never tell I'll never say anything about yeah, especially

491
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 2: because once I said I gave a little synopsis of

492
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: what I was working on, and my editor said, oh, no,

493
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 2: that won't work. I just bought a book that was

494
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 2: really sort of amazingly similar to my idea, and so

495
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 2: it was amazing because if we had both written that book,

496
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: one of us probably would have accused the other of

497
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 2: plagiarizing it. But since then I've said, I'm not telling you.

498
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: Just people forget again. And Deep Impact opened on the

499
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: same weekend, two cataclysmic disaster films about a comet. Yes,

500
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: both showed up at the same time, two massive studios.

501
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of just yeah, Well, I think there's some

502
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: because I realized I know why it happened because we

503
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 2: both because I finally read her book, so I put

504
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: my idea completely aside and never wrote it. But when

505
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: I saw her acknowledgments, we've both written read the same

506
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: nonfiction book, and it seemed like that's any fiction writer

507
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: reading that book, their mind would go in there in

508
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: that direction.

509
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 1: But that's also and it's the same with musicians when

510
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: they get accused of this, they're like, man, there's only

511
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: so many chords and so many. Yeah, that's and I've

512
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: got one of my best friends actually sent a comic

513
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 1: and he says, when he's writing, if the.

514
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 2: Joke just comes way too easily.

515
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: Yes, He's like, I'm going to have to check that

516
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: one because at some open mic nights somewhere, some you know.

517
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 2: Years maybe heard it. It's popped in there.

518
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so he'll run it past a few people

519
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: and they go, oh, yeah, that's blah blahs bit.

520
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why it came so easily.

521
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I didn't have to work on the

522
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: punchline or tighten it or get the rhythm differently. That's

523
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: why it came.

524
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: I'm exactly the same that if. And so sometimes if

525
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 2: I've come up with a plot, I think, oh, that

526
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: came too easily. Did I get that from Laura and order?

527
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: And how did it? And even with characters, there was

528
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: one with known perfect strangers. I was running one particular

529
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 2: character and I was thinking, your way, are you coming

530
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 2: so easily to me? I must have got you from somewhere.

531
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: But then I realized that it was my own character

532
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: from my children's books, so it was a sort of alien.

533
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 2: So it was okay, So I could take I could

534
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: plagiaris for myself.

535
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: Look, I think your father's case for compensation might be

536
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: stronger than you initially believed. He was the commissioner. He

537
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: was just saying, there's a light in there about you know,

538
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: subsidiary and sports station.

539
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: Somewhere in the contract he said all that sort of thing.

540
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: Sure he did.

541
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: And when I went to events, he used to say, say,

542
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: I'll send my regrets to my fans. So sorry, I

543
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: can't be there with your new book.

544
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: Why why death and why the opposite of death, which

545
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: is being alive but as alive as you can be?

546
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: Yes, Because it came to me on a plane, and

547
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: I was sitting on the plane. It was a Hobart.

548
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: I was in Hobart, and I was stuck on the

549
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: tarmac for a long flight delay, and I started looking

550
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: around at people, and this cheerful thought came into my

551
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 2: head that all of us on this plane are going

552
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: to die one day. It's absolutely true, It is true. Yes,

553
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: And I was looking at different passengers and thinking, so

554
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: will you be the one whose life is cut short

555
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: or will you be the one who lives to one hundred?

556
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: And I was considering the fact that one day that

557
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: information will be available that there's you know, at some

558
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: point in the future, people will know exactly how each

559
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: of us, including me, at what age and how we died,

560
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: which sort of blew my mind for a little bit.

561
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 2: And then I thought, so what happens if somebody, if

562
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: that information was available now, and somebody walked down the

563
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: center of the plane and said your cause of death,

564
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 2: your age of death, yours, yours, yours, And so that

565
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: was that was the premise, Like.

566
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: An immigration card lying out of feet. Wow, there's rudimentary

567
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: ways to calculate that stuff, based upon blood tests and things.

568
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: But I ride bicycles on motorcycles, and I can't possibly

569
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: sedict if someone like yesterday cut me off and nearly

570
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: asked me.

571
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a thing, And that's how we all

572
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: live our lives because we're all thinking about the risk.

573
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: So you're going to take You're going to take that risk.

574
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: But there are certain risks some of us, you know,

575
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: the people who jump off mountains. So that's what the

576
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: book then became about, exactly that how do you calculate

577
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 2: the risk of what and what you can and can't control.

578
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:13,959
Speaker 1: It's confronting to think about your ideath.

579
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 2: Yes, and I remember when I started telling people the

580
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: premise of this book, some people's faces do an involuntary

581
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: sort of sense of revulsion. Oh, they don't want to

582
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: they don't want to think about it, which is yeah.

583
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: And I think it's because in the world that we

584
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: all the modern world, we get used to a lot

585
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: of people can go for a long time without experiencing death,

586
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: and we assume that everything can be fixed. And I

587
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: remember when we were organizing my father's funeral, the funeral

588
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: director said, some middle aged people come in to organize

589
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 2: their parents' funeral, and this will be the first funeral

590
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: I've ever attended. So yeah, we put it aside and

591
00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 2: we don't want to think about it.

592
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: I think about it that a lot most of my

593
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: folks were doctors. And there's a cemetery near my home

594
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: and you walk through it and you see the ages

595
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: on the gravestones, like three months, eighteen years. My parents' generation,

596
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: probably your parents' generation, were probably the first generation to

597
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: not have buried at least one child. Yes, that was

598
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: just everyone you knew would have buried a kid before

599
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: any boots and before health care being what it is now.

600
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: It was just you would be a young parent. You'd

601
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: probably be twenty five, you know, and have four kids.

602
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: Two hadn't made it because of pneumonia or something or whatever.

603
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: And that's just how people went through their lives.

604
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: I remember talking about that once with an old boyfriend

605
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: who said, therefore they loved their kids less, and I said,

606
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: I do not. I disagree with that so completely. I

607
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 2: don't think they did. I think they just lived with loss.

608
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: And it's interesting, then did they appreciate their life? It's

609
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: more because they knew they could be taken Did they

610
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: look at them and think he could be taken away?

611
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: I don't know.

612
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: I'm sure they didn't love them less. No, no, not.

613
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: At all, not at all. But it was also at

614
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: a time when our community, at least in Australia, was

615
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: very much governed by a system between you know, adjacent

616
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 1: to the government of religion that says, don't you worry

617
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: about that death thing. We've got it sorted shore up here.

618
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: Every Sunday, give us some money in the box, that kid, fine,

619
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: don't worry about it. Yeah, yeah, your brother gets nailed

620
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: by an unsafe machine at work. Sweet, he's in a

621
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: better place now, don't you worry. So the problem of

622
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 1: death was solved for we never had to think about it.

623
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 1: But as we've kind of gotten older and a little

624
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: more secular and a little more really really, and we

625
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: don't have that, well, not as many of us.

626
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: So now we have to face it ourselves. That's a

627
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 2: bit hard.

628
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: When you're putting this together. Did it change the way

629
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: that you went through your day.

630
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 2: A little bit? I remember, I just remember one day thinking, oh,

631
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 2: actually nothing is decided everything. There's all these different choices

632
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 2: I could make, and there's all these different choices other

633
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: people could make, and I'd have no idea how it's

634
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: all going to work out. And that gave me, you know,

635
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 2: I was thinking, so even if I've got some terrible

636
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 2: disease or like your friend you were talking about, even

637
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: if that's inside me right now, maybe there's some person

638
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 2: working on a cure right now, So maybe that's going

639
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 2: to happen, or maybe I'll do this, or maybe I'll

640
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 2: and yeah, that was I can't. It's like all different

641
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 2: cards going out in all different directions. I thought when

642
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 2: I was writing it that all my characters, when they

643
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 2: were told their death, that maybe that'd have these amazing

644
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 2: revelations about how they should live their lives. But once

645
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: I started writing it, then I thought, well, first of all,

646
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 2: would they believe it so that you know, they say

647
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 2: they deny it so and secondly they try to fight it.

648
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: So no matter what everybody, if you get how told

649
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: you're going to die of a terminal disease, first thing

650
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 2: you do is usk for a second opinion. You're fighting.

651
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: Most people are fighting all the way. You know, if

652
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: there's a clinical trial you can enroll in. So and

653
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: then that became the other part of the story. So

654
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: it wasn't so much that everybody nobody's going to hear

655
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 2: you're going to die on this day. So oh well,

656
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 2: I'll love my I love my life even though that

657
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 2: you know, that does happen when some people get sick

658
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: and reach a wonderful form of acceptance. But yeah, I

659
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 2: wasn't that would have been a very boring book.

660
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: Well, it's getting your affairs in order is code for

661
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,240
Speaker 1: you better not leave anyone with unanswered questions.

662
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, you know.

663
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: And if you can get to that point, you don't

664
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: have to wait till you get the call from the

665
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 1: doctor to get your affairs in order.

666
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: You can get your fears in order today. But we

667
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 2: do avoid it, don't we. Yeah, we don't want to.

668
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 2: We don't want to think about it. So actually there

669
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: was that I did start to think, are my affairs

670
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: really in order as well as well as they could?

671
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: Side of the street as queen as I think it.

672
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 2: Is, And they're just little things like passwords and things

673
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 2: like that. If I really did, what would be how

674
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: would my family? Yeah cope? What would be the day

675
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: to day administrative things? That was really distressing for people

676
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,439
Speaker 2: when there's an unexpected death. Yeah that's yeah.

677
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: No one who died in an accident is a day

678
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: thought it was going to happen.

679
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: No, of course, everyone after.

680
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,479
Speaker 1: Work, you know, you got the kids go bye.

681
00:37:58,560 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was it.

682
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, to see him again. Yeah, thinking about this sort

683
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 1: of started to change the way that you said goodbye

684
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: and hello to the people that you love.

685
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 2: No, I think I was always because I've got an imagination,

686
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: so I do. I do.

687
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: Know.

688
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 2: My husband's sometimes run late and I've been thinking where

689
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 2: is he? Ah, and then I'm moving through everything. He's

690
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 2: you know, he's died, that police come, this happens, this happens.

691
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 2: And sometimes I remember saying to him once, oh, I've

692
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: just got to the good bit. I've moved on again

693
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 2: to start to imagine the whole thing. So No, I

694
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 2: think I've always really imagined the worst. And it's that

695
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 2: thing of thinking, if I imagine the worst, it won't happen.

696
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 1: I can relate to what you just said, because part

697
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: of the way that I've found a career is through

698
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: being creative and coming up with different angles or storylines

699
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: or ways to approach particular problems or ways to municate something.

700
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: And that creative part of me is extraordinarily helpful and

701
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: has been done well for me.

702
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

703
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: Yet it also likes to show up in those negative moments.

704
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 2: Yes, and it's just as powerful.

705
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's really got me in trouble. Yeah, and

706
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what kind of when. I mean, you were

707
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: able to joke you are at it. I just got

708
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: a good bit of dating. Have you found that sometimes

709
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: it can get the better of you?

710
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 2: No, it hasn't. I don't think it's ever stopped me

711
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: from doing anything. But yeah, I went well watching last

712
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 2: Weekend with my children and I was thinking, imagine, I mean,

713
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 2: what's I don't understand how the whale could just come

714
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 2: up and to crash down on us. But yeah, I

715
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 2: kept imagining it. But no, I still I still went

716
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 2: to watch I'm.

717
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: Glad that is good. You mentioned about you know, the

718
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 1: you're talking about the possibility of possibility and I can't

719
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: possibly know. Exploring the idea of free will is an

720
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: interesting one. Did it get writing this book in, you know,

721
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 1: researching it and then getting ready?

722
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 2: Did it to get you.

723
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 1: Thinking about how much of this we actually have a saying?

724
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,720
Speaker 2: Well, I read up Aul about determinism, So this idea

725
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: that everything you do you were going to do anyway

726
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: based on your genetics and upbringing. But to me, it

727
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: just feels like one of those sort of a philosophy

728
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 2: where you the argument is, well, you were going to

729
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: do that anyway, and it's done, so that proves my point.

730
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 2: I don't believe that I believe in free will, but

731
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 2: the determinus would say, but that's because of whatever you choose,

732
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 2: you're going to choose anyway. So but no, I still

733
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 2: think on one day I might have done this, and

734
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 2: on another day I might have done that, But they

735
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 2: would say, yeah, but on that day, because of all

736
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 2: the different the environment, you're always going to do that.

737
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: I don't, but I don't like I don't like them.

738
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 2: I don't like that way of thinking, you know what

739
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: I mean. It's one of those where you just talk

740
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 2: around in circles backwardly.

741
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: I'm moriarty in just a moment, I need to take

742
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: a break. So when it comes to, you know, writing

743
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: a book like this, and look, I'm not going to

744
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: say just because there's a plane involved, he'd be interested.

745
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: But when jj Abrams picks up the phone and says, hey,

746
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: I see what you've done there, it's pretty good when

747
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: it comes to the adaptations of your work into something

748
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 1: that isn't literary. When we're starting to talk about the screen,

749
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 1: like do you have to let it go? Do you

750
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: have to go okay, that's your vision now, or do

751
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: you get a chance to be the one giving the notes?

752
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 2: I definitely let it go because I've always thought when

753
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: people say I hope they don't change your book, I

754
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 2: always say, but they can't. Nobody can change my book.

755
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 2: My book's there. And also nobody can change your experience

756
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 2: of reading my book, because every single person who reads

757
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 2: my book has a different experience. So it's their imagination

758
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: and my imagination. And so that's what I love about.

759
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 2: It's something really personal and that people come up to

760
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 2: me and they say things about particular characters and I think, oh, no,

761
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 2: you've you've got that wrong because I wrote it, so

762
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 2: I know. But the reason they've got it wrong is

763
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 2: because I've taken as they were reading it. They were

764
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 2: taking something from their own past, so it was their

765
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 2: own interpretation. So for me, the adaptation is a completely

766
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 2: different medium. Because it's a different medium, I don't think

767
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: that it should have to follow exactly the book. I

768
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 2: think sometimes they need to make changes, which is something

769
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 2: I say with great pride. But of course each time

770
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 2: I see the first script and I think, but they

771
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 2: got rid of someone, so well, you know, the smallest change,

772
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 2: I wish they didn't make it. But I truly believe

773
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: what I'm saying. That's my free will. My instincts are

774
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: saying no, no, no, don't change it, but my rational

775
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: mind says, well, it's now theirs. And that's why I

776
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 2: deliberately step back, because I think if I did get

777
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 2: too involved, I'd be saying no, no, it should just

778
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 2: stick with the stick with the book. And what's the

779
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 2: point of having me there saying stick with the book

780
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: when it's not my area of expertise.

781
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: It's good catering. It's probably why.

782
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's always great catering on those things. But it

783
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 2: gets pretty boring. So I thought the first time I

784
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: visited said, I thought, this is amazing. I'm seeing my

785
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: characters and seeing it all built. And then after a

786
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: while I thought, Okay, this is getting a bit boring.

787
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: I haven't heard you say moving on in a while.

788
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: And great, you shot eight seconds today. Good job exactly,

789
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: which is how long it takes.

790
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 2: I know, But I don't have the patients for it,

791
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 2: and I'm not especially interested in I'm not somebody, you know,

792
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 2: some other people might go and say, tell me about

793
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 2: this camera. I'm really learning about how it all works.

794
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: Interesting in the story, do you think, man like you

795
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: do what you do very well, you don't need to

796
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: the other people do their thing. That was something that

797
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: I at one point did want to get involved a lot.

798
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: But at the other point, I'm like, that person's here,

799
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: but we say the best there is. I can spend

800
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: something of them. If anything, they don't idy, and we

801
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: they've got the best idea of what to do here,

802
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: and in fact, they might show something that I otherwise

803
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 1: would never have.

804
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 2: A exactly and now it's better. Wow, look at that.

805
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: That's right. But I do know some authors have really

806
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 2: leaned in too the film industry, and sometimes I've thought,

807
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 2: should I have done that? But I and I always

808
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 2: hope it's not fear stopping me from doing that. But

809
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 2: I don't think it is. I think I'm just not

810
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 2: That's it's not my thing. Are you A.

811
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: I can't start until the font is the right kind

812
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 1: of person?

813
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 2: Are you a? This is my desk, this is when

814
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 2: I start. It's clock on time. No one come talk

815
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 2: to me.

816
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: Not really.

817
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 2: I do like the font to be right. That's true.

818
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: What's your times? New room? And interview over? Interview over?

819
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 2: It has to be has to look like I've typed it.

820
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 1: Oh, I say, yeah, No, I'm a helveticure and that's

821
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 1: not a helvetic courier.

822
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: That's it.

823
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: The only serruhs I'll do is in Korea because I

824
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: guess when I'm doing screen stuff, I like to make

825
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: it myself, think that this is what I'm writing.

826
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, and that looks the part. Yeah. That's

827
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 2: the other reason why I couldn't write a screenplay because

828
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know the tabbing this software

829
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: for that I know, but I still think that I

830
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 2: don't know.

831
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: And speaking of which nerdiness, like, is there a software

832
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: that you particularly prefer?

833
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 2: No, I don't just word that's it. Yeah, And I

834
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 2: think it's a very old version of word too. I

835
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 2: think I'm using something that's about to stop being supported.

836
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: Boy wow, because you know there's a Yeah, there's people

837
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: who were only with the yellow legal pad. And Tarantino

838
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 1: typed with one finger.

839
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 2: Oh really yeah, really?

840
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: Never letting go is nut really because if it's not

841
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: sharp enough with this, then it's too long. It actually

842
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: took him so long to type it right that if

843
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: that was his his filter.

844
00:46:58,080 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 2: Oh, I see through his.

845
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: Prot It's like you wouldn't do big long monologues or

846
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: whatever because he's typing it with one finger. It had

847
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: to be it kept it succinct, right, He'll just get bored.

848
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 1: And if I'm getting bored, then everyone wanting like that's

849
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: pretty good.

850
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: That is one thing I don't know. It's really useful

851
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 2: having oft tens. I agree with you. I am not.

852
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: I don't have a career, but I also have nine

853
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: other fingers that I utilized, probably not as well. My

854
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: wife likes to just use her maybe speaking number in

855
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: my face. Apparently she's so many words po minute more.

856
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: But yeah, and when it comes to you know, you've

857
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: got kids. You know, you've got a kids, You've got

858
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: a family and mom's home. Are you a person that

859
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: could work from home or are you a person that

860
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: had to always be out of the house or I.

861
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 2: Work from home and my office is treated with cheerful

862
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:55,959
Speaker 2: disrespect by everyone. So no, there's no people just walk

863
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:57,720
Speaker 2: in and look over my shoulder.

864
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: Wow, I read that Stephen King would just shut the

865
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: door and no one could walk in and he would

866
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: just come out ten hours later.

867
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 2: That was it.

868
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, how are you able to when you get

869
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: back into it?

870
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 2: Yes, it's and yeah, I'm thinking, have I told the truth?

871
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:18,399
Speaker 2: Then I do shut the door when I'm getting into it. Yeah,

872
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 2: they're happy to knock though, And I do sometimes go away,

873
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 2: especially when I'm getting it's all coming together, So I

874
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 2: go away and be on my own. But that's all, well,

875
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: that's a part of it though. It is.

876
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: We are only capable of concentrating on so many things

877
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 1: at the same time. Yes, And you know, ultimately, like

878
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: you wouldn't want to distract someone while they drive me

879
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 1: down the freeway by going no, look at me, now,

880
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 1: look at me.

881
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: I'm doing one hundred and ten.

882
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: You know, you want to let this person focus on

883
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: the task at hands. So similarly like having a full

884
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 1: focus on this thing is really important, really really important.

885
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: And when it's done, though, what what do you do

886
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:57,240
Speaker 1: with the space?

887
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 2: With the space that yoused to see in my mind

888
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:01,959
Speaker 2: there used.

889
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: To be concentrated on this thing? What do you do

890
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 1: when it's Oh.

891
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 2: Well, it's the most exhilarating feeling ever. When you're finished,

892
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 2: it's just it's just the best. But then, yeah, there's

893
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 2: only a few weeks, and then the editing's come in,

894
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 2: then the copy editing, and then the proofing, and then

895
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 2: by then you just can't stand to look at it

896
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 2: any longer.

897
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've had the kind of success that would

898
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 1: mean if you didn't want it, you probably didn't have

899
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: to keep writing. But what is it that you what

900
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: is it that not fiscally? What do you get out

901
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: of doing this?

902
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I get something because you know, I like

903
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,439
Speaker 2: to I have hobbies, But there's nothing that I could

904
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 2: imagine that would fill my entire life if I wasn't

905
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 2: if I wasn't writing. I would find myself becoming irritable

906
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 2: and twitchy, and no I would. I just wouldn't like it.

907
00:49:55,560 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 2: Because I remember, I thought twenty twenty or twenty nineteen,

908
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 2: I was calling it my year of joy because I'd

909
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 2: done I've done a big book tour and I you know,

910
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 2: I had deadlines, and I thought, I'll take a year off.

911
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 2: And I couldn't. I couldn't do it. I just ended

912
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 2: up and it wasn't do it. Well. There were there,

913
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 2: we was, there were moments of joy. We did some

914
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 2: great travel, luckily just before twenty twenty, but no I

915
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 2: needed In the end, I said to my sister, send

916
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 2: me some writing prompts. And I said she was the

917
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 2: one who gave me the writing prompt That was the

918
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 2: opening scene of Apple's Never Fall. And I thought, oh,

919
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: I'll just write a short story to sort of keep

920
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 2: me going. But I just wrote a new novel. That

921
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 2: is what happens.

922
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: I opened my laptop and a novel fell out.

923
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: No, it's not like that at all. And I'm not

924
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 2: one of those authors who say, oh, it all just

925
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: you know, came out. It's not like that. There are

926
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 2: tiny moments where I think, oh, this paragraph's going well,

927
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 2: but you know it's paragraphs. It's really short periods where

928
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 2: I lose my sense of self. That's what I'm always

929
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 2: aiming for, to lose myself in the riding. And I

930
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 2: could achieve that when I was a little girl instantly,

931
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 2: but now I have to trick myself into it to

932
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 2: get into that flow state. I think it's flow. It's

933
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 2: definitely flow state.

934
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: Right, Well, if you figure out how to get there

935
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: more deliberately.

936
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that's what I want.

937
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: Let us know because I like when i'm there.

938
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

939
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: My wife's less so because I can be very difficult

940
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: to I can't.

941
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 2: Get you out of it. Yeah.

942
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't really think about anything else for a

943
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 1: little because it was to hangover for like an hour

944
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,399
Speaker 1: or two later. My brain is just so directly, yes,

945
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: Like if you ever sat backwards on the train going

946
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: from wherever to wherever and it stops at the station,

947
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: you think it looks like the ground's moving, even though

948
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 1: it's not, because your brain's a.

949
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 2: Bit like that.

950
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: I know I'm not doing that anymore, but all I'm

951
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,040
Speaker 1: thinking of in context of walking.

952
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: It's the best I do get quite a thrill out

953
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 2: of it. But I know it's not great for my relationships.

954
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: I can get lost in it, and that's the kind

955
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 1: of but.

956
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I to get a great through.

957
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: It's very exciting for people who might have related to

958
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: some of what you spoke about, which is that's not

959
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,720
Speaker 1: for me. I don't do that, whether it be writing,

960
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: whether it be something else. What would you say to people?

961
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 2: I'd want to be clear, do you want it? Do

962
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,399
Speaker 2: you do you really want it? Because sometimes I think

963
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 2: you have to be careful to make sure you do

964
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 2: want it. You to just think you should want something.

965
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 2: So if you know in your heart you really do

966
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,760
Speaker 2: want something, whether we're talking about writing or whatever, maybe

967
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: just asking that question might clarify things for you because

968
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 2: if you really want it, okay, then how you can

969
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 2: how you can do it? And you don't. That's what

970
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 2: we said earlier about you don't have don't think I'm

971
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 2: going to sit down and write a novel today or

972
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 2: begin a podcast. It's one tiny little step. So I

973
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 2: often get nervous about opening the document because I'm feeling

974
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 2: like I can't. I don't even want to open the document.

975
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 2: So even now I still have that fear. I've got

976
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 2: a sort of sneak up to the computer. I know,

977
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 2: to the contract. I know, and I think, I come on,

978
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 2: just double click and just write, just write a sentence.

979
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 2: So I think, in whatever you want to do, there's

980
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 2: probably some tiny step that you could take. What would

981
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 2: it be for if you wanted to become a podcaster

982
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 2: to win or whatever whatever it is, there's some tiny

983
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 2: step that you could take, and then you might find

984
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,399
Speaker 2: that once you take that tiny step, you could take

985
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 2: one more tiny step and so on. No, no, no, no.

986
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: If I had a box to write on the back of,

987
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 1: that is what I would write. Leone, You've been just

988
00:53:58,960 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: an absolute treat.

989
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 2: Thank you, No, it's my pleasure. It was good fun.

990
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 1: And that was Leanne Moriarty.

991
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 2: Fantastic to speak to her.

992
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: What a magnificent mind she has and just a lovely

993
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: way of going about things, such a delightful energy, calm, wonderful.

994
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: It's great to chat with her.

995
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 2: I hope you fellows inspired by that as I did.

996
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,760
Speaker 1: You can't edit a manuscript that doesn't exist, you can't,

997
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: so just whatever it is, whatever it's just started. I

998
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: love the way she talked about that you start it

999
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: and work from there. After I chatted with her. I

1000
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 1: came here, came home, and I knocked out an outline

1001
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: for a TV series I've been thinking about.

1002
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 2: It was a voice note. I spoke it into my

1003
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 2: phone to.

1004
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 1: Transcribe it because then it's the thing I can react to.

1005
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: So it's a thing that I began because I heard

1006
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: Leone Moriarty and I was like, well, fuck, she started it,

1007
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: so yeah, you's got to start. He's got to start.

1008
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for being here. Get on the newsletter.

1009
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 1: If this episode was good for you, I'd love you

1010
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: to tell a friend I'll see you back here on Friday.

1011
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: Here's an AI voice that I'll tell you who helped

1012
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: me like this today.

1013
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 2: This episode was brought to you by Andy mar on

1014
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:08,240
Speaker 2: audio post production, Big say Ed on video post production,

1015
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,760
Speaker 2: Toe Hyder on music. Our producer is Brie Steel.

1016
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,840
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1017
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1018
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