Speaker 1: Hi, Ike Boris and this is straight Talk. Andrew Clarke,
Speaker 1: Welcome Straight Talk, Thanks for coming in, Thanks for having me. Well,
Speaker 1: you know my mate Laila McKinnon and she told me
Speaker 1: that she went to one of your talks and she
Speaker 1: gave you a huge rap. So you've got lots to
Speaker 1: live off to have you ready that She's good?
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: So you're an award and winning author, futurist journalist, but
Speaker 1: you've sort of launched, You've got your new book. Would
Speaker 1: you have a little chat about adapt Not so much
Speaker 1: about the book. We'll talk about the book, but we
Speaker 1: want to talk about what can we take out of
Speaker 1: the book. Maybe he give us a little bit of
Speaker 1: history about your background though, because you've had had an
Speaker 1: interesting sort of career path. You're only very young drive
Speaker 1: because you did tell me we're going to say publicly
Speaker 1: but relatively speaking, I think you're quite young. But you've
Speaker 1: had a fairly full career and we're doing some interesting stuff.
Speaker 1: So maybe take us back to, you know, like your
Speaker 1: early twenties of what were you doing.
Speaker 2: I was a television news reporter, so I started my
Speaker 2: career in at g w waan and Calgooley, so out
Speaker 2: there with all the guys, and I always wanted to
Speaker 2: be a TV reporter, and so I started off doing
Speaker 2: regional and then went to the commercials in Melbourne and Sydney.
Speaker 2: But I actually picked myself up and flew myself to Washington,
Speaker 2: DC when I was twenty nine because I'd always wanted
Speaker 2: to be a foreign correspondent, So moved myself to DC
Speaker 2: with no money, no job, in a very tenuous visa
Speaker 2: situation to have a go because there was only a
Speaker 2: couple of reporters on the East coast of the US,
Speaker 2: so I decided that that was the best way for
Speaker 2: me to accelerate my career and find the kind of
Speaker 2: leadership that I was looking for to be around. So
Speaker 2: had a really dynamic twenties in TV journalism covering general assignments,
Speaker 2: so thrown out every day onto a different story.
Speaker 1: At twenty nine, you were trying to be a foreign correspondent,
Speaker 1: but you weren't before you went nicely said across foreign
Speaker 1: cross bond.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: Did you get how did you get a job? At
Speaker 1: twenty nine? Who signed up? Or did you just freelance?
Speaker 2: So yeah, freelance. So I woke up the next morning
Speaker 2: in Washington, DC, after arriving and started cold calling every
Speaker 2: foreign bureau in the city until Ruters picked up and said,
Speaker 2: come on in. So I spent you know, many fantastic
Speaker 2: years with Thomson Reuters covering State Department, Pandagon and White
Speaker 2: House and all the big names who are in town,
Speaker 2: who come through town.
Speaker 1: How does they work? So you're you in town? You
Speaker 1: love love yourself into Washington literally rent an apartment or
Speaker 1: what are you doing?
Speaker 2: Thought I was in a boarding house.
Speaker 1: Boarding house, Yeah, great, in a boarding house. I was
Speaker 1: on a budget, single female hanging out in a foreign
Speaker 1: country with warriorsome visa. Obviously you don't have much money
Speaker 1: at that stage, and and you start contacting the foreign bureaus.
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Like, what's a foreign bureau? What
Speaker 1: were we talking about?
Speaker 2: Obviously Washington, DC is the center of gravity for international coverage,
Speaker 2: and so you had every country in the world in
Speaker 2: some form represented in the form of a bureau in
Speaker 2: the city. A bureau, so news crew, reporter, local production
Speaker 2: staff that would gather news from North America and communicate
Speaker 2: whatever was going on, mainly from the White House, communicate
Speaker 2: that news to their home country. And so there were
Speaker 2: stacks of bureaus based in the city, and I literally
Speaker 2: started from a went alphabetically and started cold calling every
Speaker 2: bureau to see if they had any opportunity for me
Speaker 2: to freelance there.
Speaker 1: You mean, just just come in and pay me per hour,
Speaker 1: pay me per story or whatever.
Speaker 2: Do you need me to come in and help produce stories,
Speaker 2: to line up talent, to gather news in whatever form
Speaker 2: made sense to that bureau. So that's what I did.
Speaker 2: And I got to r and I was nearly out
Speaker 2: of I only had five working days to get a
Speaker 2: job because I only had five hundred bucks to my name.
Speaker 2: So I had five days.
Speaker 1: So you see, you saw after this, I got to
Speaker 1: go back.
Speaker 2: Home, had to turn around and go back. So I
Speaker 2: had five days and I got to r and this
Speaker 2: really terrific guy called Rob Muir at Rutters, another Aussie,
Speaker 2: picks up the phone and says, come on in and
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, thank God, Like I get to
Speaker 2: stay for another week and we'll just see how long
Speaker 2: this goes for?
Speaker 1: How long did they go for?
Speaker 2: About seven years?
Speaker 1: So you stayed Ruters.
Speaker 2: We sat in DC for seven years, d.
Speaker 1: For seven years. But you got your first a job
Speaker 1: opportunity at Ruter's what did you do after that?
Speaker 2: Well, I was producing and gathering news for a couple
Speaker 2: of years for Routers and Channel seven, and then I
Speaker 2: moved into international aid work. So I saw the signal
Speaker 2: of change coming down the pipeline for the business of news,
Speaker 2: and I switched into working for a major international aid organization.
Speaker 2: So essentially what that meant was Iland in Baghdad Island
Speaker 2: in Georgia into.
Speaker 1: BLC Georgia in the ex Soviet country.
Speaker 2: The one that the Russians invaded in about two thousand
Speaker 2: and eight. So I switched from news. I was addicted
Speaker 2: to being in a newsroom because we were I was
Speaker 2: always part of an ultra high performance news team, which
Speaker 2: was a very addictive way to be working. But one
Speaker 2: day I was walking down the street, walking down K Street,
Speaker 2: which is pretty close to the White House. It all
Speaker 2: feels really good, it looks good, it's all shiny and new,
Speaker 2: and there's lots of things to be There's lots of
Speaker 2: things that keep you going in a town like that
Speaker 2: because there's always so much happening. But one day I
Speaker 2: was walking to the Al Jazeera English news bureau where
Speaker 2: I was freelancing that day, and instead of picking up
Speaker 2: a copy of The New York Times, I found myself
Speaker 2: looking at scanning the news headlines on my BlackBerry, and
Speaker 2: I thought, this is a really interesting signs of change.
Speaker 2: Because if I'm a journalist being paid to produce content
Speaker 2: that as a consumer I'm not prepared to pay for,
Speaker 2: then the business model of news is failing right in
Speaker 2: front of me, and I'm a part of it. So
Speaker 2: what I'm going to do? So I ran through the options,
Speaker 2: and for me, you know, I thought, what if my
Speaker 2: behavior scale this is you know, two thousand and eight,
Speaker 2: What if my behavior scale, like what if ten thousand
Speaker 2: people stopped picking up a paper? What if a million
Speaker 2: people stopped picking up a paper? Then what's going to
Speaker 2: happen to the news business? So I decided to resign
Speaker 2: pretty shortly after that, go into international aid. And then
Speaker 2: I found myself in Baghdad pretty shortly after.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as in Afghanistan.
Speaker 2: In Iraq. Yeah, but we were running major programs in
Speaker 2: Afghanistan as.
Speaker 1: Well, So that's that's pretty hectic. It was pretty hectic
Speaker 1: going from Washington, a nice safe environment to Bagdad. You know,
Speaker 1: it was a war or war well, but it was
Speaker 1: sort of sort of rebuilding, et cetera.
Speaker 2: At that stage, well, it was still volatile. It was
Speaker 2: still a very active war zone in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 2: So I literally literally land. I mean, it was just
Speaker 2: like an out of body experience.
Speaker 1: What does that? What does international aid meet? Like you're
Speaker 1: going around helping people who were underprivileged or injured or what.
Speaker 2: And so the aid organization I was working for had
Speaker 2: a number of pillars that they would use to support
Speaker 2: third world nations, and they were infrastructure, so they'd help
Speaker 2: people rebuild, microfinance grants, so they'd help people locally engaged,
Speaker 2: local residents come back to the city and rebuild their
Speaker 2: business like they might be running a small mechanic shop
Speaker 2: before the war. So micro finance, food, security, medical supplies.
Speaker 2: So there are a number of ways that major international
Speaker 2: groups helped rebuild a nation. And it was my job
Speaker 2: to go in and make an assessment of the projects
Speaker 2: that were being delivered by this organization so we could
Speaker 2: ask for more funding from the US State Department and
Speaker 2: US AID, which Trump is dismantling at the moment. So
Speaker 2: so I had to prove I mean, and there's my
Speaker 2: journalism practice that came into play. So I had to
Speaker 2: interview people on the ground and prove that the money
Speaker 2: that was being spent was being spent well, so we
Speaker 2: could get another billion dollars for Iraq the following year.
Speaker 2: It was big money. Wow, it's a big cooin.
Speaker 1: Pretty deep experience from going from reporting what's going on
Speaker 1: in the US or what's going on in terms of
Speaker 1: those people operating in the US, and then off into
Speaker 1: doing international aid. That's pretty crazy. What do you ask
Speaker 1: that and topic? He didn't get put on a sort
Speaker 1: of an army if couldn't go to war or something.
Speaker 2: No, I I mean I I made a really difficult
Speaker 2: decision because I was just about completely burnt out. Made
Speaker 2: a really difficult decision to pack everything up and come home.
Speaker 2: So I lost my job in the aid organization because
Speaker 2: in principle I had flagged a fairly major misappropriation of funds.
Speaker 2: So I recognized that funds weren't being spent in a
Speaker 2: way that I thought the American public would approve of,
Speaker 2: and lost my job. The CEO figured out that I
Speaker 2: knew what was going on, so I got walked from
Speaker 2: that job. So it was completely devastating, and I did
Speaker 2: pick up another amazing role with the Savedar for coalition.
Speaker 2: So basically I ended up being the communication director to
Speaker 2: help stop the genocide in Sudan at the time. So
Speaker 2: my job for the next twelve months was to organize
Speaker 2: the communication that hassled the Obama administration to appoint a
Speaker 2: US Special to Sudan, which we did in the UN
Speaker 2: General Assembly in two thousand and eight. So it all
Speaker 2: sounds big, but all it is is about influence. It's
Speaker 2: about how do we stop you know, the civil war
Speaker 2: going on in Sudan?
Speaker 1: How could do that sort of job? What do you
Speaker 1: learn for the future, for yourself or as a tool
Speaker 1: you get out of that.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's a great question. And I think that that
Speaker 2: that experience propelled me forward to looking for great leadership,
Speaker 2: because when you're.
Speaker 1: In you're looking for greater I mean.
Speaker 2: But it allowed me to prioritize what great leadership looked like, right,
Speaker 2: because you saw great leaders in those moments, and you
Speaker 2: saw leaders who didn't perhaps have the influence that they
Speaker 2: wouldn't want to have. And so for me, it helped
Speaker 2: me recognize what great, what great leadership really looked like.
Speaker 2: And then you know, it made me think about how
Speaker 2: can I translate all of that experience into running a
Speaker 2: small business into you know, eventually coming back to Australia
Speaker 2: and developing a leadership and learning business where I was
Speaker 2: able to translate all of those lessons into leadership programs
Speaker 2: for big businesses like Rio, Tinto, Ostrade, NBN, Aurora.
Speaker 1: AHP, some of your clients. Yeah, you wrote a book
Speaker 1: around this. Yeah, what was that called future Fit Future Fit.
Speaker 1: That's different in this book because we're as you know,
Speaker 1: we're right in the middle of an election period. And
Speaker 1: I had yesterday, sitting right there, the Treasurer of the
Speaker 1: country and I put to him, you know, you're one
Speaker 1: of the senior leaders of government right now and may
Speaker 1: well be you know, after the election as well. And
Speaker 1: of course you know, it's very traumatic at the moment
Speaker 1: out there, at the moment, the stock market's gone mental,
Speaker 1: you know, strain dollars lesson sixty cent. So I don't
Speaker 1: know if it is as we sit here, but it
Speaker 1: was yesterday afternoon. People are getting very nervous. I remember
Speaker 1: this happening during the GEFs. People super innovation balances started
Speaker 1: to go from you know, one hundred thousand down to
Speaker 1: thirty thousand very quickly. People worried about all the money
Speaker 1: they're putting away, their whole life of it. What is
Speaker 1: someone like, what would you say to someone like the
Speaker 1: prime minister or the treasurer or any senior person in
Speaker 1: those roles where they try to they need to build
Speaker 1: confidence back in the system. How do they what do
Speaker 1: they do, what do they talk about? How do they
Speaker 1: go about it? It's a better way.
Speaker 2: I think there's a recognition that has to happen first,
Speaker 2: and awareness that collectively the whole nation is looking to
Speaker 2: them for direction, protection and order in a moment where
Speaker 2: we feel very uncertain, very chaotic, and yeah, we're trying
Speaker 2: to log into our super funds to see what's going
Speaker 2: on there.
Speaker 1: And it's funny you should say that. It's funnish you
Speaker 1: say that because only a week ago some of those
Speaker 1: super funds who were compromised, yes, cyber attack, and that
Speaker 1: would make it doubly worse. And you also said a
Speaker 1: really really good point there. I think at least we
Speaker 1: need them to recognize that there's a problem sort of
Speaker 1: do they need to have a solution as well or
Speaker 1: just recognize the problem.
Speaker 2: I think recognition and an acknowledgment publicly of the problem.
Speaker 2: I don't think that we hear that enough. We don't
Speaker 2: hear politicians saying we really understand how it feels to
Speaker 2: be supporting three kids with three jobs, trying to put
Speaker 2: food on the table, trying to make things work, Like
Speaker 2: I don't hear enough politicians connecting in a real way
Speaker 2: with their constituents by recognizing what the pain the people
Speaker 2: are feeling. I mean, surely you must see that as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, do you think that's the reason for that
Speaker 1: is you get paid, getting paid a lot more money
Speaker 1: than say, their constituency in whatever area they might be.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's got anything to do with the
Speaker 2: kind of coin there on. I think I rarely see
Speaker 2: leaders spend enough time on the front line of change,
Speaker 2: And when you're not close to change, you don't understand
Speaker 2: how change impacts people. And the most important thing that
Speaker 2: we all need to understand about change, particularly leaders, is
Speaker 2: that we are addicted to sameness. We love our routine
Speaker 2: and we don't like change. That's how we're wired, So
Speaker 2: we associate change automatically with loss. Like imagine, I said,
Speaker 2: you imagine for everyone listening, you know I'm your boss,
Speaker 2: and I say, you know there's an email coming your way,
Speaker 2: and the heading is, you know, we need to talk
Speaker 2: like you're going to automatically default to a loss. You're
Speaker 2: going to default to that means something really negative. That's
Speaker 2: a threat to my security, my stability, my status, my financials,
Speaker 2: whatever it might be. I'm not sure that leaders recognize
Speaker 2: how deeply people are impacted by any degree of change.
Speaker 2: We're not wide for it, we don't like it. You know,
Speaker 2: we are constantly clinging to what we know because we
Speaker 2: love certainty. Now, I would say to people, and I
Speaker 2: say to people in my leadership cohorts, what we need
Speaker 2: to do in that moment is interrupt that thought pattern.
Speaker 2: And while we recognize that the situation may not be great,
Speaker 2: we also need to find the upside in what change
Speaker 2: provides us, Like, what's the opportunity in this change? How
Speaker 2: can we demonstrate some personal agency in moments where we
Speaker 2: do feel uncertain, and how do we understand what we
Speaker 2: can control and can't control.
Speaker 1: That's very interesting because I said to their treasurer, and
Speaker 1: he told her quite a hard rendering story about when
Speaker 1: he was a young man, as still at school, that
Speaker 1: he was a bit wayward when he was growing up,
Speaker 1: and largely probably because he didn't have proper parenting as
Speaker 1: a kid, and his mum and dad split up, et cetera.
Speaker 1: Those things can affect a boy, I guess, and a girl.
Speaker 1: But he had two older sisters, and he said that
Speaker 1: he met up with a guy who was a teacher
Speaker 1: at the school actually sort of took him out of
Speaker 1: his wing and sort of talk to him and gave
Speaker 1: him some mentoring, and as a result of that, he
Speaker 1: decided he wanted to become a politician or be in
Speaker 1: the public policy environment, not a politician necessarily, and in
Speaker 1: terms of his leadership journey, he saw that as a
Speaker 1: very important thing. But he also mentioned so first I
Speaker 1: want to say to you, ask you how important is
Speaker 1: that in the leadership journey that you get mentorship from
Speaker 1: somebody who's valuable.
Speaker 2: I think that role models models the right role model
Speaker 2: at the right time is an absolute game changer. And
Speaker 2: I'm sure that we would both now think about the
Speaker 2: people who had an impact on us for our lives.
Speaker 2: And I think we need to rethink what role models
Speaker 2: are these days because I do not believe we should
Speaker 2: be basing role models around money, fame, or power. I
Speaker 2: think we should be looking at why people do the
Speaker 2: things they do instead of what they actually do. And
Speaker 2: I think the right role model, a strong role model,
Speaker 2: positions us to establish a stronger action of values. So
Speaker 2: a great role model really serves three functions. They inspire
Speaker 2: us by showing us what's possible. They can influence our
Speaker 2: goals and our motivation, and they serve as a behavioral
Speaker 2: example of success. And I think that's the key word.
Speaker 2: If behaviors and intentions of our role models expire, then
Speaker 2: we tend to look elsewhere for a new role model.
Speaker 2: But I had the most incredible professor at university who
Speaker 2: said to me at eighteen, you can do anything you want.
Speaker 2: You can go around the world, and you can do
Speaker 2: anything you want. And I believed him. I believed him,
Speaker 2: and so I did. And I had that in the
Speaker 2: back of my mind from the age of eighteen, and
Speaker 2: that was such a powerful and simple throwaway statement for him,
Speaker 2: but it meant a lot to me, and it's something
Speaker 2: that I carried with me. It gave me the confidence
Speaker 2: because I thought if doctor Peter Young, who at the
Speaker 2: time I think was about sixty, who'd been a war
Speaker 2: correspondent and being to all these places that I wanted
Speaker 2: to go to looked at me, and he saw in
Speaker 2: me potential, and if he could just throw a few
Speaker 2: lines my way, he wouldn't have He would have had
Speaker 2: no idea how that impacted me. But that gave me
Speaker 2: the confidence to think I really can go and do that,
Speaker 2: and sometimes that's all we need in that moment of
Speaker 2: uncertainty or vulnerability. So I think we should always be
Speaker 2: looking for role models that demonstrate the kind of behaviors
Speaker 2: and intentions that we feel aligned with. And we all
Speaker 2: know what an anti role model looks like. Right at
Speaker 2: some point in our careers. We've had someone in our
Speaker 2: life who we've thought, oh, I actually don't want to
Speaker 2: be that person. And I had that in a newsroom.
Speaker 2: You know. That was one of the reasons why I
Speaker 2: decided to get out of news, not just because the
Speaker 2: business model was failing, but because I would consistently be
Speaker 2: looking around the newsroom and think that that's not demonstrating
Speaker 2: good leadership. I don't believe I don't want to be
Speaker 2: that person, you know, when I'm in my mid fifties,
Speaker 2: So how do I sort of change course? Now? But
Speaker 2: a great role model is a game changes. So I
Speaker 2: don't think we should ever it doesn't matter who you
Speaker 2: are and where you work in society. We should never
Speaker 2: underestimate the impact that we have on people around us
Speaker 2: because mental sponsors and advisors. Advisors are so foundational to
Speaker 2: giving that advice that we need to hear in the
Speaker 2: right moments.
Speaker 1: It's funny the treasure said something like, if you aren't
Speaker 1: these aren't these words. But if you are given a talent,
Speaker 1: you have responsibility to make use of that talent. And
Speaker 1: that's sort of I think that's sort of what you said,
Speaker 1: because most people don't if they've become influential, don't recognize
Speaker 1: a their talent. They might think they've got a talent
Speaker 1: certainly ways, but they don't realize what their real talent is,
Speaker 1: but they don't actually do anything with it. A lot
Speaker 1: of times that they don't pay it forward to any
Speaker 1: audience for that matter. And that's sort of what he does.
Speaker 1: That's what he tries to do. I mean, it seems
Speaker 1: to me that I said to him, I said, Treasurer,
Speaker 1: to make change, it takes courage. I wonder if you're
Speaker 1: I was talking to him about when I don't want
Speaker 1: to get political, but I was talking about when his
Speaker 1: predecessor in the Labor Party was a guy called Chris Bowen,
Speaker 1: and Chris Bowen in the election with when Bill Shorten
Speaker 1: was going for Prime minister, decided to bring in a
Speaker 1: whole lot of policy changes, financial policy changes to and
Speaker 1: presented them to the Electric before the election, things like
Speaker 1: silly things like get rid of need to gearing change,
Speaker 1: the couple of games, takes in lots of people's home investments,
Speaker 1: you get rid of Frankie credits, which in a lot,
Speaker 1: a whole lot of old Astrayans rely on to fund
Speaker 1: their lifestyle. And of course Shorten lost the election. And
Speaker 1: I said, sometimes it takes a lot of courage to
Speaker 1: say those things. You, on the other hand, don't say
Speaker 1: anything controversial. Does that mean as a leader you're not
Speaker 1: being courageous? You know what would your mentor from when
Speaker 1: you were sixteen or seventeen say to you about that?
Speaker 1: And you said to it before, we don't like change.
Speaker 1: And governments sort of know that. They poll and they do,
Speaker 1: they check things out, they don't make mistakes too many
Speaker 1: times these days, Well that Trump's proven that theory a
Speaker 1: bit wrongs. Yeah, totally, but as the Australian government, and
Speaker 1: I said to him, like, do you ever feel as
Speaker 1: though you're not being courageous enough as a leader. How
Speaker 1: do you reconcile A. I want to be the leader.
Speaker 1: I've got to stay as I need to stay as
Speaker 1: leader to get my ambitions done. I don't mean personal ambitions,
Speaker 1: my ambitions for the nation done. But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: if I'm too courageous, I could lose the election because Australians,
Speaker 1: as you said, people don't like change.
Speaker 2: I think that people get paid to have an opinion,
Speaker 2: whether you're a CEO, regardless of your leadership position, people
Speaker 2: vote you in.
Speaker 1: So take the risk.
Speaker 2: Take the risk. Absolutely, there's not enough risk going on
Speaker 2: across his country in business.
Speaker 1: Don't you think I'm not in favorable the way he
Speaker 1: does it at all? But I make too many courageous
Speaker 1: take too many courageous steps. Sometimes they turn around and
Speaker 1: do work so well. But I don't really care care.
Speaker 1: I couldn't give a shit. I'm not trying to become
Speaker 1: the treasurer of the Prime Minister. I mean I'm running
Speaker 1: my own show and I can do it. I want
Speaker 1: sort of thing, and I'm lucky enough to be in
Speaker 1: that position. He's not, And it's a hard thing. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it can be hard to reconcile because look, I let's
Speaker 1: say he's speaking, I have this ambition for this nation
Speaker 1: to do blah blah blah blah, but I'm not going
Speaker 1: to I need to be the treasurer in order to
Speaker 1: do it. I need my party to win in order
Speaker 1: to do it. So I'm not going to do anything
Speaker 1: crazy at the moment. I'm just gonna look at the
Speaker 1: poles where people don't want to change, and I'll make
Speaker 1: sure I just play that game. Whereas other people will
Speaker 1: go and they just set the joint light like Trump
Speaker 1: and bugger the consequences. I'm just going to set the
Speaker 1: joint Logers. I actually, I presume you honestly believes that
Speaker 1: what he's doing at the moment has actually become better
Speaker 1: for Americans. How's that reconciled.
Speaker 2: He's out playing golf, well, the whole well, the world's
Speaker 2: blowing up, Like I mean, I saw that morning, and
Speaker 2: I thought, to me, that is that exercising leadership? I don't.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not really sure. I think I think
Speaker 2: you have to stay connected to what's going on in
Speaker 2: the community, so be present with everyone absolutely. How can
Speaker 2: you make decisions that are really well informed? If you're
Speaker 2: on the top floor and everyone else is running around
Speaker 2: on the ground floor, you've you've got no direct line
Speaker 2: of sight, you know, with what's going on, how things
Speaker 2: are changing, and how people are experiencing change. So I
Speaker 2: think regardless of where you are where you sit as
Speaker 2: a leader, you know the most incredible leaders that I've
Speaker 2: worked with, and Mike Snider at Bunnings is a great example.
Speaker 2: He's out there sweeping the floor full clean and tidy,
Speaker 2: you know, at the end of every day with his staff,
Speaker 2: so he understands, he's listening to the conversations, he's hearing
Speaker 2: what's going on. He's on the front line of change.
Speaker 2: So regardless of where we sit in any leadership position,
Speaker 2: it pays to stay connected to what people are going through,
Speaker 2: whether they're customers, constituents, or you know, whoever is a
Speaker 2: recipient of your leadership. If we're not connected, how can
Speaker 2: we make decisions at the right time that are going
Speaker 2: to be in the best interests for that collective?
Speaker 1: It. Yeah, and I keep coming back to financial things,
Speaker 1: but I remember when the COVID hit and everything was
Speaker 1: sort of traumatic, quite traumatic, and the Reserve Bank governor
Speaker 1: is not the current Reserve band government. The old Reserve
Speaker 1: Bank governor was up there talking about now I'm going
Speaker 1: to put in trades down to point one and what
Speaker 1: it was. And then we had the Prime Minister saying
Speaker 1: something we had the Probably more importantly, we had the
Speaker 1: state premiers and their health ministers telling us every day
Speaker 1: with so many COVID cases, so many deaths, as only
Speaker 1: people in hospit all this sort of stuff daily and
Speaker 1: I thought it was I just wonder why we don't
Speaker 1: get the Reserve Being governor, who at the time was
Speaker 1: different to the current Reserve being. Why we just get
Speaker 1: him up there along with say the Prime Minister and
Speaker 1: along with say I don't know, the Minister for Health,
Speaker 1: for Federal mins f Health.
Speaker 2: The whole gang.
Speaker 1: It's a gang, and just put them up on because
Speaker 1: this used to have many I remember as a kid
Speaker 1: this just happened. Put them on the ABC because you know,
Speaker 1: it's respected national broadcaster, not to say the others aren't,
Speaker 1: but as a respect to national broadcasts, and you know
Speaker 1: it's the owned by the government. And let's say we're
Speaker 1: going to do an interview on Sunday night at seven
Speaker 1: pm to all Australians. Not an interview, but have a chat,
Speaker 1: just tell you what's going on with this COVID stuff
Speaker 1: and all's one though not not separately, all together, and
Speaker 1: explain what we're thinking and how we're walking, walking our
Speaker 1: way through. I wonder why they do that.
Speaker 2: I feel like, I mean, the greatest missed opportunity in
Speaker 2: most leadership practices is communication, right. It's the most important
Speaker 2: part of having influence, communicating change and keeping people informed,
Speaker 2: and yet we haven't. We don't see that enough. I
Speaker 2: think across corporate Australia we didn't see it. Then across COVID,
Speaker 2: and what was interesting to me was we had different
Speaker 2: states with very different ways of handling things, and so
Speaker 2: any continuity would have been helpful in the overall approach
Speaker 2: to how the country was tackling COVID, and there was
Speaker 2: so much uncertainty and fear, and we certainly did not
Speaker 2: see enough. I mean, as a former journalist looking at
Speaker 2: the way that played out, the greatest missed opportunity was
Speaker 2: more continuity in communication with people about what was going on.
Speaker 2: I know we had daily briefings, right, but they were
Speaker 2: all different. They were all different. So the average Australian
Speaker 2: is sitting around with relatives in another state. In some
Speaker 2: cases people who are terminally unwell in other state with
Speaker 2: no idea if or when they were going to see
Speaker 2: them again because all the states have different rules. So
Speaker 2: a class and that will be a case study in
Speaker 2: universities and used to come because.
Speaker 1: They didn't they did have a national group, but they
Speaker 1: met in they met in private.
Speaker 2: I met in private. We didn't know, we didn't know.
Speaker 1: We didn't get to talk to, you know, the primacy
Speaker 1: sit premiers. But it was a private conversation. And I
Speaker 1: used to think, well, just let me know, Like I'm
Speaker 1: not dumb. They don't really a wood duck.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm happy to listen, give me a And
Speaker 2: we were complying a summary, yes, and we were complying.
Speaker 2: And I think the the damage that was done was
Speaker 2: the erosion of trust. And you know, the erosion of
Speaker 2: trust and governments has shifted to you know, to business,
Speaker 2: So everyone who goes to work is now looking to
Speaker 2: their business as that trusted source of information and cohesion.
Speaker 2: They're not necessarily looking to the government anymore because of
Speaker 2: how much trust was lost over that period of time.
Speaker 2: And I wonder what's going to happen if we have
Speaker 2: another version of the pandemic, I suspect we will not
Speaker 2: see people be as compliant. I completely agree, and I
Speaker 2: don't think we can underestimate what's lost when that erosion
Speaker 2: of trust happens, whether that is in the workplace or
Speaker 2: socially or in the community or whatever context, because you know,
Speaker 2: the DNA of trust is really straightforward. When I'm thinking
Speaker 2: about whether or not to trust you, I'm asking myself
Speaker 2: three questions. Is this person consistent? You know, is there
Speaker 2: are there behaviors consistent? Do they have the character? Do
Speaker 2: they have the resources, the skills and the wherewithal to
Speaker 2: do what they tell me they're going to do? Character?
Speaker 2: Consistency and competency? And are they competent? Do they are
Speaker 2: they prepared for this? So if we see a crack
Speaker 2: in any of in that thread of DNA, the DNA
Speaker 2: of trust, we're going to step back. And where that
Speaker 2: erosion of trust has already happened, it's very difficult to
Speaker 2: repair trust. And I think we saw that happen at
Speaker 2: scale during COVID, and I think across the globe totally.
Speaker 1: Do you set the communication peace on leadership? Just generally,
Speaker 1: I can ask you three parts three questions around that
Speaker 1: So the first question is what do I communicate in
Speaker 1: terms of content? Second question is how do I communicate?
Speaker 1: In other words, how often is it?
Speaker 2: Frequency?
Speaker 1: Is it like if I'm a business leader, is it
Speaker 1: via zoom or is it or is it in person
Speaker 1: or et cetera? And when do I communicate it? Do
Speaker 1: I do it? Do I wait? Like we've got a
Speaker 1: global financial issue potentially arising at the moment, Do I
Speaker 1: wait until it becomes a problem or do I start
Speaker 1: talking about it now? So? What how and when we
Speaker 1: do leaders to communicate?
Speaker 2: Anytime? Every communication is about change, So whenever there's a change,
Speaker 2: I mean it depends on the context, right. So I
Speaker 2: was actually watching Scott Gallaway yesterday on Instagram and I
Speaker 2: thought I loved that he jumped on He was walking
Speaker 2: around a college tour and he jumped on Instagram and
Speaker 2: he started communicating what was going on with the selloff.
Speaker 2: So generally speaking, every piece of communication is about change,
Speaker 2: otherwise you wouldn't be communicating. So anytime there's something to
Speaker 2: communicate around change, do it?
Speaker 1: So how do I just stop this? So on change,
Speaker 1: do you mean something that's changing out there better what
Speaker 1: I'm used.
Speaker 2: To, Anything that's going to disrupt the status quo. Anything
Speaker 2: that impacts your clients, your customers, your constituents, your stuff, yep,
Speaker 2: your stuff. Absolutely, anything that's going to impact them that
Speaker 2: needs to be communicated. Secondly, communicate candidly and frequently. So
Speaker 2: what people want to feel like is the conversation we're
Speaker 2: having now. I want to feel like that tone and
Speaker 2: style and everything about this would be carried over if
Speaker 2: we're sitting around having a coffee, right, So you want
Speaker 2: to be canned in conversational in the way you communicate.
Speaker 1: So it's not written off a script.
Speaker 2: I ignore the script. Yeah, and I think that many
Speaker 2: many leaders know that leaders we are a really great
Speaker 2: communicator to spend hours preparing as well that people don't
Speaker 2: really you know, that's not really shared, but it's something
Speaker 2: that they do privately. But they prioritize communication as a
Speaker 2: skill in the same way they prioritize reading a P
Speaker 2: and L sheet, in the same way that they prioritize
Speaker 2: other technical skills that keep their business going. So prioritize
Speaker 2: when something needs to be when there needs to be
Speaker 2: comes around change, do it conversationally and candidly in a
Speaker 2: way that's natural to you and effortless to you, what
Speaker 2: was the third one?
Speaker 1: And how often? Like you know, what's the process? So
Speaker 1: I do it every day? Well, because we saw the
Speaker 1: drink they did every day, But do I do this
Speaker 1: every day? Like good examples today, Let's say we talked
Speaker 1: yesterday about look, guys, there's a global issue at the
Speaker 1: moment in relation austrain dollar, et cetera, et cetera. Do
Speaker 1: I go back the next day and say, look, here's
Speaker 1: an update.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would treat it like breaking news.
Speaker 1: So I would so anything new that comes up or
Speaker 1: any change in from the day before.
Speaker 2: This is the missed opportunity that super funds have with
Speaker 2: all of their all of their members.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen one super fund, but I don't.
Speaker 2: See a single super fund communicating anything, and I haven't
Speaker 2: none to saved for the past hour of many years.
Speaker 2: Like that, to me, will end up costing them in
Speaker 2: some way. If I was a CEO of a super fund,
Speaker 2: I'd be doing a live video link every day to
Speaker 2: whatever member I wanted to join that zoom call and
Speaker 2: be communicating anything that's going to help me feel more
Speaker 2: comfortable about this change that we're experiencing. That's the I
Speaker 2: believe people get paid to demonstrate leadership if they're the CEO.
Speaker 2: I also believe that CEOs get paid to communicate change,
Speaker 2: you know, as frequently as they feel necessary.
Speaker 1: So sort of like you're saying, it's nearly like a
Speaker 1: job spec like you're going to put in a CEO. You're
Speaker 1: getting paid the extra amount of dollars. Part of your
Speaker 1: job specification is that you must communicate. Obviously you must community,
Speaker 1: but you must communicate when there's change that effects on
Speaker 1: either clients, yeah, suppliers, staff, et cetera. You must communicate.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I'm coming from a comms background, you know,
Speaker 2: seventeen years in journalism, but I don't I think that
Speaker 2: that is a basic, like a basic criteria as a leader.
Speaker 2: I think comms is part of leadership and we don't
Speaker 2: see it demonstrated enough because the Australian business community anyway
Speaker 2: seems to be you know, they've gotten away with having
Speaker 2: barely any comms directly. There are only very few Australian
Speaker 2: leaders like Shane Elliott was a great example a enz.
Speaker 2: He's putting himself up. He has put himself up previously
Speaker 2: on radio, He's done Facebook lives with clients, He's on
Speaker 2: the front line understanding what's happening. There are very few
Speaker 2: Australian leaders across business community who really do that and
Speaker 2: mean it. And I think that if we saw more
Speaker 2: of that, we would have more trust in business, in
Speaker 2: big business, and if we saw it with government leaders
Speaker 2: who were doing it in ways that the less orchestrated,
Speaker 2: I think we'd also have a greater sense of trust him.
Speaker 1: Less of a performance less it's.
Speaker 2: Pretty performative at the moment, I think we could agree.
Speaker 1: I mean it kills me, But I actually said, to
Speaker 1: the truth of yessays said, mate, you're very polished, and
Speaker 1: which I admire. He's very polished and very structured and
Speaker 1: very in control and sensible about what he's doing. In
Speaker 1: other words, I wouldn't be able to put him off balance.
Speaker 1: I know I couldn't get but he's at polished. I
Speaker 1: couldn't put him off balance. I could have tried, but
Speaker 1: I didn't want to try. But I felt like he's
Speaker 1: he'll have a good comeback and a personal audience would
Speaker 1: know whether I was right, here's right or wrong. But
Speaker 1: I know I don't have people on my should debate anyway.
Speaker 1: But because the debate can happen on Sky news on
Speaker 1: Thursday night or whatever. But that's not my game. I'm
Speaker 1: not here to debate with anybody. I'm here to try
Speaker 1: and understand what's going on. Just can I go back
Speaker 1: to that trust element for and I think it's really important.
Speaker 1: You said the word familiar So it's funny. I often
Speaker 1: say to myself, who do I trust the most? I
Speaker 1: trust my family the most. Why do I trust my
Speaker 1: family the most? It doesn't necessarily mean I like everything
Speaker 1: they do, but I know I've watched them all of
Speaker 1: their lives, and I know what they're likely to do.
Speaker 1: I have a sort of strong sense of outcomes. So
Speaker 1: and because when I talk about brands, I often say
Speaker 1: a brand to be trusted, it won't happen overnight. People
Speaker 1: have to become familiar with it, as in a family sense.
Speaker 1: You can even make mistakes, just like in a family,
Speaker 1: but you still forgive your family at the end of
Speaker 1: the day because I don't know your family, and you
Speaker 1: trust them, and because you trust them, they're your family.
Speaker 1: Because your family you trust with, let the go both ways.
Speaker 1: And familiarity is like if it's a brand, it's about
Speaker 1: me seeing it more often. The more often I see
Speaker 1: the brand and I don't even know what the ads about,
Speaker 1: but I just see it.
Speaker 2: But there's a presence there, there's a visibility.
Speaker 1: And so how closely aligned is trust and familiarity as
Speaker 1: opposed to you're not going to do the wrong thing
Speaker 1: by me? That just those two is a very much
Speaker 1: in a serviceable familiarity. I know who that organization is
Speaker 1: by virtual the fact they've been around for ten years.
Speaker 1: How strong is that?
Speaker 2: I think what's most important is when you feel like
Speaker 2: there's been an erosion of trust or trust has been
Speaker 2: undermined in some way, your response to that is most important,
Speaker 2: whether you're a brand or a business owner. So and
Speaker 2: I see this on you know, in small ways locally myself,
Speaker 2: with local businesses getting negative reviews, they'll often call ten
Speaker 2: people who trust the business to get online and put
Speaker 2: up a positive comment Google. Yeah, yeah, basically. But I
Speaker 2: think what's important is what you do about how you
Speaker 2: respond in those moments where trust has been eroded. And
Speaker 2: if you've got a formidia, if you've already been if
Speaker 2: you've been practicing visibility and familiarity as a brand for
Speaker 2: years before something goes wrong, then you've got a much
Speaker 2: better chance of recovering that relationship with people who.
Speaker 1: Are important to you just by virtual time.
Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, but again a commitment to communication and a
Speaker 2: commitment to being visible and being familiar in moments where
Speaker 2: you don't necessarily have to, but you choose to do that.
Speaker 2: Because if you're a business that's grounded in integrity and
Speaker 2: building relationships for the long term, that's part of the strategy.
Speaker 2: It's something that will come naturally to you because you
Speaker 2: don't necessarily need a big strategy around it. But trust
Speaker 2: is built over time. It's lost very quickly, but it's
Speaker 2: what you do in those moments where it's eroded that matters.
Speaker 2: It's how you respond in those moments.
Speaker 1: So we've got some in Australia. We've got a couple
Speaker 1: of really big organizations, two in particular who I won't
Speaker 1: name them, but one of which is a mining company
Speaker 1: from Australia and another one is a city based tech
Speaker 1: company and there's been a trust erosion relation to both
Speaker 1: in both examples of the CEO, dash chairman, leader, leaders
Speaker 1: of the business and the big shoulders in the business.
Speaker 1: And what would you because you don't know what I'm
Speaker 1: talking about in particular, but what would you say to
Speaker 1: those organizations because it seems like those people are pushing
Speaker 1: back saying, well, look this's my business, I control it.
Speaker 1: I've been good for you so far, trust me. But
Speaker 1: they haven't really come out and said it, like I
Speaker 1: haven't seen them get on the front foot and actually
Speaker 1: talk about it. Definitely not going to get on to
Speaker 1: a teally out or anything like that, but I haven't
Speaker 1: seen any interviews from them. They've sort of gone to ground.
Speaker 1: And there's that old saying in PR give good news
Speaker 1: oxygen and some other bad news.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I believe either of those, you know,
Speaker 2: having watched good news and bad news play out for
Speaker 2: so long in my career, I think that the brands
Speaker 2: and the businesses that have demonstrated longevity have demonstrated consistent communication.
Speaker 1: Warren Buffett good example, totally unbelievably.
Speaker 2: And what have you got to lose by doing a
Speaker 2: live stream and talking to your people? What have you
Speaker 2: got to lose? And so I think that that visibility
Speaker 2: again is fundamental to the trust equation. And if you
Speaker 2: want to disappear, that's fine, but I think there'll be
Speaker 2: a cost to that over time. And you're already raising
Speaker 2: issues around trust because you haven't seen either of these
Speaker 2: leaders come out and say anything. So there's a great
Speaker 2: example of what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I know both of them, and I thought
Speaker 1: to myself, have you asked them why they No? I haven't.
Speaker 1: I thought. In fact, one of them I've done a
Speaker 1: show on with and the other one once stage that
Speaker 1: was a shohold of mine. And I always considered more
Speaker 1: of them to be quite a good friend. But I
Speaker 1: wonder as a leader, just a community leader, not in
Speaker 1: their particular industry leader. Do you think someone like me
Speaker 1: I should be reaching out to them?
Speaker 2: Why would you reach out to them to give the
Speaker 2: fair back that you've already given them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or just to talk about what I just talked about. Hey, guys,
Speaker 1: I haven't. I mean, you've just sort of gone aground.
Speaker 1: Why don't you.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, if they were adults, I mean part
Speaker 2: of me thinks they're educated adults right in the show.
Speaker 1: They have understandable leadership there, No, And I.
Speaker 2: Do think that there's a disconnect where I do think
Speaker 2: that you. For a long time, That's what I got
Speaker 2: paid to do. I was a media trainer's top a
Speaker 2: six leaders. I'd come in and I'm the bad I
Speaker 2: can be the bad guy, you know, and they're in
Speaker 2: their staff would say to me, look, this person has
Speaker 2: moved from CFO to CEO. Bottom line is he's not
Speaker 2: behaving like the CEO. He's still behaving like the CFO.
Speaker 2: So we need you to come in and play the
Speaker 2: bad cop and to you know, basically say that to
Speaker 2: him and elevate his presence, you know, on camera. So
Speaker 2: I'd happily do that because I was an outsider a
Speaker 2: lot of people that you know, this is an interesting
Speaker 2: part of leadership and role models. Who are we surrounding
Speaker 2: ourselves with, who are our sort of personal board of directors?
Speaker 2: And are we getting one version of the truth from them?
Speaker 2: Do we need to be looking further afield to get
Speaker 2: unfiltered advice from people who are watching what else is
Speaker 2: changing around us. So maybe that could be a really
Speaker 2: valuable conversation that would pay off. And you know, I
Speaker 2: know that any leader who has any degree of humility
Speaker 2: would welcome an observation that would bring them, bring those
Speaker 2: leaders closer to their their customers, closer to understanding what's
Speaker 2: changing for those customers, and also grow the business at
Speaker 2: the same time.
Speaker 1: So why not what about a leader is really highly
Speaker 1: skilled and the best person for the job in terms
Speaker 1: of skill sets, but is shy. What do you as
Speaker 1: a trainer type person, someone who tries to get the
Speaker 1: best out of these individuals? How do you work with
Speaker 1: someone like that? Do you? How do you get them
Speaker 1: confident to sit in front of camera? Like a lot
Speaker 1: of people, as soon as that camera's on, they change.
Speaker 1: I mean I see it in this job. And in fact,
Speaker 1: the very first time I ever had to do something
Speaker 1: in front of a camera, which is like a long
Speaker 1: long time ago, I remember like, well, like it was
Speaker 1: a bit scary, like yeah, it's intimidating. I got nervous.
Speaker 1: I don't ask why when I look back at it,
Speaker 1: but I just did. What do you do for these people?
Speaker 2: We have to get out of our own road.
Speaker 1: What does that mean?
Speaker 2: We have to whatever?
Speaker 1: We get over yourself.
Speaker 2: You have to get over yourself. I mean, don't. I've
Speaker 2: had seventeen years as an on camera news reporter. I
Speaker 2: do not enjoy. I would rather be in your seat.
Speaker 2: But the message that I have around adapting more effectively
Speaker 2: to change is far more important than how I feel
Speaker 2: about myself. So I've got to get out of my
Speaker 2: own road. And that is the same advice I give
Speaker 2: to anyone who I've worked with previously who has a
Speaker 2: job needs to communicate change but doesn't like being on camera.
Speaker 2: Just get out of your own road, because it's actually
Speaker 2: not about you. It's about your audience. It's always and
Speaker 2: only about your audience and how and the kind of
Speaker 2: influence that you want to have over them, regardless of
Speaker 2: how shy you are.
Speaker 1: Let's say, and I see this all the time, a
Speaker 1: lot of these organizations have a corporate affairs person and
Speaker 1: usually when it's pretty bad news, they said that person
Speaker 1: had to be the spokesperson. So and you're read in
Speaker 1: the paper a spokesperson for said blah blah blah as
Speaker 1: opposed to the individual. Is that do you think that's
Speaker 1: damaging to their organization?
Speaker 2: I mean it depends on the scale of the issue.
Speaker 1: Less it's an important issue and they just run a
Speaker 1: a cover.
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean we all know how that plays out.
Speaker 2: I think it's a I think that anytime a CEO.
Speaker 2: I think if it's if you're a CEO running a
Speaker 2: business and the business has a problem, again, get out
Speaker 2: of your own road and get on camera and start
Speaker 2: communicating that change to people who are important to you,
Speaker 2: whoever they are.
Speaker 1: Is it important to see you made a mistake?
Speaker 2: If definitely well, I mean obviously that their lawyers would
Speaker 2: disagree without depending on the situation. But I think that
Speaker 2: that only builds trust if you have an honest and
Speaker 2: direct line of communication with your constituents. And I watched
Speaker 2: this with I won't name names, but one of the
Speaker 2: big banking guys, probably about seven or eight years ago,
Speaker 2: everyone knew he was really arrogant, didn't really feel any
Speaker 2: obligation whatsoever to communicate to any of his forty thousand
Speaker 2: staff or hundreds of thousands of customers. Now, how much
Speaker 2: social capital do you think he had when something went
Speaker 2: wrong and the board was looking at him and think
Speaker 2: thinking he's got to go right. I would argue that
Speaker 2: Shane Elliott has a much better chance of staying in
Speaker 2: the gig long term. I'd argue that he has longevity
Speaker 2: because every day he's out demonstrating that he cares a
Speaker 2: lot about what customers think, what his employees think about
Speaker 2: the place to work. So I think you build social
Speaker 2: capital over time, and that capital may have a payoff
Speaker 2: in a moment where you're finding life difficult or where
Speaker 2: your job is up for grabs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, where someone might be challenging your position. That's exactly
Speaker 1: as a result of an error of the whole bank.
Speaker 1: And that is because there's no one, very rare as
Speaker 1: an error in a big organization responsibility to one person.
Speaker 1: It's usually the responsibility of many. But because you're you're
Speaker 1: at the top of the tree, you take the blame
Speaker 1: for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think we said a lot in banking,
Speaker 1: and I think.
Speaker 2: There's a disproportionate amount of pressure on CEOs these days.
Speaker 2: I think there you know, the burnout, liability and scrutiny
Speaker 2: is is at a point where it's never been before.
Speaker 2: I wrote an article about this for the fin Review
Speaker 2: last week. You know, the Global CEO Index has shown
Speaker 2: that there's a higher turnover of CEOs because of burnout,
Speaker 2: liability and scrutiny and increased attention. And that's not just
Speaker 2: damaging to them, it's damaging to emerging leaders who are
Speaker 2: looking at their boss thinking, you know what that does?
Speaker 2: It it's not worth it. Maybe there's another way, Maybe
Speaker 2: there's an adjacent pathway here, And I'm going to trade
Speaker 2: power and prestige for peace for peace and privacy right,
Speaker 2: and who wouldn't want to do that in today's world.
Speaker 2: But that's a pretty dangerous precedent to set when you
Speaker 2: look at the kind of you know, the lower is
Speaker 2: the barrier to entry for leadership over time. So I
Speaker 2: think that we look at CEOs and we do expect
Speaker 2: them to be superhuman because they're not only running these
Speaker 2: enormous organizations, they're running families. They're expected to be culture shapers,
Speaker 2: they're expected to be community leaders. So we do expect
Speaker 2: a lot. Our expectations are disproper austuately high of a CEO,
Speaker 2: so I think we need to be careful about that.
Speaker 2: But when it comes to the basic role of a CEO,
Speaker 2: it's not just about growing the business and keeping shareholders happy.
Speaker 2: I think it's also about communicating change where necessary. So
Speaker 2: I think that's I think communication leadership is a fairly
Speaker 2: basic basic ask, but we don't see enough of it.
Speaker 1: And that issue whereby people who are looking around thinking this,
Speaker 1: why would I do this? Because of the things you
Speaker 1: just mentioned, burnout, et cetera. Do you think that could
Speaker 1: be a reason why some people take the view that
Speaker 1: we at the quality of our politicians today are less
Speaker 1: than they used to be and because it's lower the bar.
Speaker 2: Well, this would you be a politician? Why not?
Speaker 1: For the matter of drama you have to put up
Speaker 1: with that, don't pay you enough?
Speaker 2: When you can have peace and privacy, why would you
Speaker 2: go for the profile and prestige. That's the problem, because
Speaker 2: people like you, who should be running for office can
Speaker 2: afford not to. You choose to have influences.
Speaker 1: But how do we correct that? Then? How do you
Speaker 1: how how would you suggest that we're a nation we
Speaker 1: start to try and correct that. Should we pull back
Speaker 1: a little bit from laying so much scrutiny on them?
Speaker 1: What's this?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's really a complicated question
Speaker 2: because the whole system is designed. I mean, it's public sector,
Speaker 2: it's not private sector, right, There's no money in it,
Speaker 2: There's no It's a very difficult it's a very difficult
Speaker 2: and complicated game to play, and for most of us,
Speaker 2: by the time we are in our forties, fifties, sixties,
Speaker 2: and when we're most qualified to play that game, we
Speaker 2: don't necessarily have the energy to So I'm not I
Speaker 2: don't have the answer to that. I don't know if
Speaker 2: many people do. I'd love to hear it.
Speaker 1: So what right? I love? So I could quickly talk
Speaker 1: about your book. So your book called Adapts a mastering
Speaker 1: Change in four steps? Can you do? I have to
Speaker 1: read the whole book to get the four steps.
Speaker 2: You don't know this is. This is about adaptability in
Speaker 2: its purest form, being about anticipating and influencing change and
Speaker 2: not reacting and responding to change so we get ahead
Speaker 2: of it. This is for anyone who feels who doesn't
Speaker 2: want to feel like they're always constantly playing catch up
Speaker 2: to change. And so four steps engaged with signals, accept
Speaker 2: what's changing, activate your optimism for what's next, and release
Speaker 2: what is no longer fit for purpose for where you're headed.
Speaker 1: So let go of it.
Speaker 2: Let go of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so just just on the first part that is
Speaker 1: sort of looking out for the signs. That's rights signals. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you call it signals yep. So that sort of by
Speaker 1: definition requires people to be constantly vigilant and aware.
Speaker 2: I think we can be overly vigilant. My advice is
Speaker 2: choose a couple of things to pay attention to, but
Speaker 2: also don't ignore that gut feeling because we all have
Speaker 2: ignored and there's probably a signal of change today that
Speaker 2: we're all ignoring. So I'd urge you, I'd provoke you
Speaker 2: to think what is that. It might be personal, it
Speaker 2: might be social, it might be in the workplace. Don't
Speaker 2: ignore that signal of change because the closer it gets
Speaker 2: to you, the less options you'll have to respond to it.
Speaker 2: So if you see a signal, like when I saw
Speaker 2: a signal in two thousand and eight about the future
Speaker 2: of journalism, I made an active decision to get five
Speaker 2: to eight years ahead of my colleagues. So always pay
Speaker 2: attention to those small changes that you think I just
Speaker 2: shouldn't be ignoring that.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's a I have to finish off
Speaker 1: on this one, but I think it's an important question.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's a danger that the way we
Speaker 1: live our lives, we get so caught up in our
Speaker 1: business from day to day, whatever happens to be with
Speaker 1: your employee or running a business doesn't really matter. Or
Speaker 1: in government, we get so caught up with what we're
Speaker 1: doing day to day, and we convince themselves, wow, I'm
Speaker 1: really busy. I'm going to get up really early and
Speaker 1: to start on my stuff, and I'm going to get
Speaker 1: to the gym, and I've got to see the kids,
Speaker 1: and I've got to bubba all the stuff I've got
Speaker 1: to do. I'm so damn busy that I know in
Speaker 1: the back of my mind there's a something that's bothering me,
Speaker 1: a signal, but I sort of either tend to ignore it,
Speaker 1: or I ignore it, or alternatively, I just completely forget
Speaker 1: about it altogether because I get caught up on what
Speaker 1: I'm doing data distracted and what tools the technique would
Speaker 1: you suggest we use to get around that that failure.
Speaker 2: So get a blank piece of paper, Just draw a
Speaker 2: line down the middle and eighty twenty. Just do an
Speaker 2: eighty twenty principle. So for eighty percent of my day,
Speaker 2: I'm going to spend triaging all the normal stuff right
Speaker 2: to get.
Speaker 1: Through the day, get through my crab yep.
Speaker 2: But I'm going to spend even just the twenty percent
Speaker 2: of my day, or even just twenty minutes, exploring what
Speaker 2: could be about to disrupt me, Like how do I
Speaker 2: how can I take a step towards figuring out what
Speaker 2: that signal is going to mean for me in a
Speaker 2: month's time, in a year's time. So and that explore
Speaker 2: versus exploit. So you don't free age of the day,
Speaker 2: but always give yourself a few minutes to reflect on
Speaker 2: confronting that signal of change, because what you don't want
Speaker 2: is for that signal of change to, you know, to
Speaker 2: be up close where you've got no.
Speaker 1: Options, because then you're panic. Then you panic, and then
Speaker 1: you made the worst decisions.
Speaker 2: So is it.
Speaker 1: Sort of like health checking? Can we do it ourselves?
Speaker 1: If I've got a fever, I think I'll hang on
Speaker 1: a bit of be careful, I got sore throat, maybe
Speaker 1: I've got something wrong. But you know a lot of
Speaker 1: people don't do a bit on my case. I don't
Speaker 1: ignore it. Is it like health checking, of course for
Speaker 1: that type of thing, that's right. Yeah, it's pretty simple.
Speaker 2: It's like a health check for life, right, And it
Speaker 2: could be in the workplace where you feel like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, a friend of mine called me last week
Speaker 2: and said, I've just lost my job, but I'm really shocked.
Speaker 2: And I said, well, I'm not shocked because for the
Speaker 2: last twelve months you've called me every week and said
Speaker 2: how much your boss hates you. So I would have
Speaker 2: picked that as a signal of change a year ago
Speaker 2: and started, you know, tidying up my CV and look
Speaker 2: for another gig. So pay attention to what those signals are,
Speaker 2: because what you want is options. You know what I've
Speaker 2: wanted through my life is options. And you know, I've
Speaker 2: had amazing role models from when I was quite young,
Speaker 2: including my dad, that demonstrated that your ability to adapt
Speaker 2: to change effectively gives you options. And that's what I
Speaker 2: think we all want in life.
Speaker 1: Why do you think you were? I mean, you mentioned
Speaker 1: your father, but why do you think you were so
Speaker 1: I don't want to over yeah, dramatize it, but vigilant
Speaker 1: back when before you probably even really thought this stuff
Speaker 1: through which you're talking about now, Like going back to
Speaker 1: when you were a journalists at Washington. Why do you
Speaker 1: think you were so vigilant at such a young age.
Speaker 2: Because when I was twelve years old, I was in
Speaker 2: Assessina two ten, single engine my dad was piloting, succeeded
Speaker 2: with my two sisters. Dad was flying the three of
Speaker 2: us between Maury and the Gold Coast and we had
Speaker 2: engine failure at nine thousand feet And what I saw
Speaker 2: happen in those moments convinced me that having high adaptability
Speaker 2: would always give me options. So we lost power.
Speaker 1: What in other words, you're gliding.
Speaker 2: We glided for nine thousand feet. And it wasn't IQ
Speaker 2: or EQ that helped Dad land that plane in one piece.
Speaker 2: It was his AQ. It was his adaptability quotionent, so
Speaker 2: the ability to apply new thinking to a new problem.
Speaker 2: And he was so calm and composed in those in
Speaker 2: those moments that when by the time we got on
Speaker 2: the ground, I didn't think about it then, but many
Speaker 2: years later I started to think, when did I first
Speaker 2: see the power of adaptability, the power of an adaptive
Speaker 2: mindset in action? And that was it. I would have
Speaker 2: been twelve years old, and it was an incredible lesson
Speaker 2: in what if you commit to having a highly adaptable mindset,
Speaker 2: you will always have options. And that's what that's what
Speaker 2: I wanted for myself, and so I really was highly
Speaker 2: engaged in what those signals have changed looked like for
Speaker 2: me from quite a young age, because you know, Dad
Speaker 2: would throw a map over the dining room table before
Speaker 2: school holidays and say where do you want to?
Speaker 1: Go? Right?
Speaker 2: So like your dad in the Cessna, Dad rang and
Speaker 2: he ran a trucking haulage business, right, so he had
Speaker 2: a light plan for work, as most people did around
Speaker 2: Western Queensland in the eighties, and when he threw a
Speaker 2: map over the table, you know, that wasn't just about
Speaker 2: planning holidays. In hindsight, for me, that was about, like,
Speaker 2: what a remarkable invitation to imagine your own future, to
Speaker 2: have an active to be an active player in the
Speaker 2: way life was going to play out for you. So
Speaker 2: I always engage. I was always engaged in change and
Speaker 2: always understood the role of imagination and the kind of
Speaker 2: life that I wanted to lead. And I just wasn't
Speaker 2: prepared to kind of roll along with the standard narrative.
Speaker 2: And I had big dreams and I was encouraged from
Speaker 2: a very young age to really go after them.
Speaker 1: Like you didn't. I mean, as opposed to being post
Speaker 1: traumatic stress syndrome, whatever the words. You actually had an
Speaker 1: embedded advantage as a result of what you experienced and
Speaker 1: what you saw your dad do. And obviously, luckily it
Speaker 1: was a good outcome allow you to to remain embedded
Speaker 1: in your mind. And well, what's interesting is that you've
Speaker 1: done something about it too, Like you've actually put it
Speaker 1: into action. You've turned that asset into action, that embedded
Speaker 1: experience into action in your own life. I think many
Speaker 1: people also, Andrey, they tend to I don't know what
Speaker 1: it is people sort of forget in terms of their
Speaker 1: career that a career is a really important part of life,
Speaker 1: Like it's I don't mean you have to have a career,
Speaker 1: but whatever you're doing, it's an important part of life,
Speaker 1: whatever you're doing. And we tend to think we focus
Speaker 1: on what we're going to do on the weekend, like
Speaker 1: where we're going to go up for dinner, which is
Speaker 1: also important, who we're going to see, but we forget
Speaker 1: about this other stuff that underpins all that. And you're right,
Speaker 1: we don't see the signals.
Speaker 2: Well. Learning, I mean learning and an agency is part
Speaker 2: of the DNA of being highly adaptable. I mean I'm
Speaker 2: obsessed with learning. I always have been, because learning is
Speaker 2: not just about gaining knowledge. Every time we learn something new,
Speaker 2: we uncover something about ourselves. So it's a positive feedback
Speaker 2: loop that is literally infinite. And you know, I think
Speaker 2: learning is a portal. And if we're not learning, we're
Speaker 2: not adapting.
Speaker 1: Have We've got so many resources today to learn, podcasts
Speaker 1: everywhere and there's your book Adapt And that's a good
Speaker 1: way to end today through Look, thanks so much. Actually
Speaker 1: that was fascinating mastering change of four steps. So I
Speaker 1: quite like the having agency over your future that concept.
Speaker 1: I think that's a really important concept. Most people don't
Speaker 1: think about that that I know of, and we're too
Speaker 1: interested in what we're doing today and what we did
Speaker 1: last week and what didn't go right for us last week,
Speaker 1: and you know how awful someone was towards me as
Speaker 1: opposed to or hang on, that's a signal that I
Speaker 1: should do something for my future.
Speaker 2: Exactly, have some agency, build personal agency in whatever way
Speaker 2: works for you. But I think that is that's a
Speaker 2: straight line towards fulfillment.
Speaker 1: Andrew Clark, thanks so much, Thanks much,