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Speaker 1: Hi, Ike Boris and this is straight Talk. Andrew Clarke,

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Speaker 1: Welcome Straight Talk, Thanks for coming in, Thanks for having me. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know my mate Laila McKinnon and she told me

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Speaker 1: that she went to one of your talks and she

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Speaker 1: gave you a huge rap. So you've got lots to

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Speaker 1: live off to have you ready that She's good?

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: So you're an award and winning author, futurist journalist, but

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Speaker 1: you've sort of launched, You've got your new book. Would

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Speaker 1: you have a little chat about adapt Not so much

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Speaker 1: about the book. We'll talk about the book, but we

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Speaker 1: want to talk about what can we take out of

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Speaker 1: the book. Maybe he give us a little bit of

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Speaker 1: history about your background though, because you've had had an

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Speaker 1: interesting sort of career path. You're only very young drive

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Speaker 1: because you did tell me we're going to say publicly

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Speaker 1: but relatively speaking, I think you're quite young. But you've

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Speaker 1: had a fairly full career and we're doing some interesting stuff.

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Speaker 1: So maybe take us back to, you know, like your

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Speaker 1: early twenties of what were you doing.

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Speaker 2: I was a television news reporter, so I started my

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Speaker 2: career in at g w waan and Calgooley, so out

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Speaker 2: there with all the guys, and I always wanted to

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Speaker 2: be a TV reporter, and so I started off doing

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Speaker 2: regional and then went to the commercials in Melbourne and Sydney.

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Speaker 2: But I actually picked myself up and flew myself to Washington,

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Speaker 2: DC when I was twenty nine because I'd always wanted

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Speaker 2: to be a foreign correspondent, So moved myself to DC

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Speaker 2: with no money, no job, in a very tenuous visa

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Speaker 2: situation to have a go because there was only a

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Speaker 2: couple of reporters on the East coast of the US,

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Speaker 2: so I decided that that was the best way for

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Speaker 2: me to accelerate my career and find the kind of

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Speaker 2: leadership that I was looking for to be around. So

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Speaker 2: had a really dynamic twenties in TV journalism covering general assignments,

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Speaker 2: so thrown out every day onto a different story.

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Speaker 1: At twenty nine, you were trying to be a foreign correspondent,

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Speaker 1: but you weren't before you went nicely said across foreign

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Speaker 1: cross bond.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Did you get how did you get a job? At

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Speaker 1: twenty nine? Who signed up? Or did you just freelance?

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Speaker 2: So yeah, freelance. So I woke up the next morning

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Speaker 2: in Washington, DC, after arriving and started cold calling every

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Speaker 2: foreign bureau in the city until Ruters picked up and said,

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Speaker 2: come on in. So I spent you know, many fantastic

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Speaker 2: years with Thomson Reuters covering State Department, Pandagon and White

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Speaker 2: House and all the big names who are in town,

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Speaker 2: who come through town.

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Speaker 1: How does they work? So you're you in town? You

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Speaker 1: love love yourself into Washington literally rent an apartment or

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Speaker 1: what are you doing?

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Speaker 2: Thought I was in a boarding house.

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Speaker 1: Boarding house, Yeah, great, in a boarding house. I was

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Speaker 1: on a budget, single female hanging out in a foreign

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Speaker 1: country with warriorsome visa. Obviously you don't have much money

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Speaker 1: at that stage, and and you start contacting the foreign bureaus.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean? Like, what's a foreign bureau? What

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Speaker 1: were we talking about?

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Speaker 2: Obviously Washington, DC is the center of gravity for international coverage,

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Speaker 2: and so you had every country in the world in

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Speaker 2: some form represented in the form of a bureau in

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Speaker 2: the city. A bureau, so news crew, reporter, local production

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Speaker 2: staff that would gather news from North America and communicate

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Speaker 2: whatever was going on, mainly from the White House, communicate

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Speaker 2: that news to their home country. And so there were

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Speaker 2: stacks of bureaus based in the city, and I literally

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Speaker 2: started from a went alphabetically and started cold calling every

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Speaker 2: bureau to see if they had any opportunity for me

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Speaker 2: to freelance there.

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Speaker 1: You mean, just just come in and pay me per hour,

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Speaker 1: pay me per story or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Do you need me to come in and help produce stories,

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Speaker 2: to line up talent, to gather news in whatever form

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Speaker 2: made sense to that bureau. So that's what I did.

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Speaker 2: And I got to r and I was nearly out

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Speaker 2: of I only had five working days to get a

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Speaker 2: job because I only had five hundred bucks to my name.

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Speaker 2: So I had five days.

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Speaker 1: So you see, you saw after this, I got to

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Speaker 1: go back.

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Speaker 2: Home, had to turn around and go back. So I

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Speaker 2: had five days and I got to r and this

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Speaker 2: really terrific guy called Rob Muir at Rutters, another Aussie,

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Speaker 2: picks up the phone and says, come on in and

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, thank God, Like I get to

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Speaker 2: stay for another week and we'll just see how long

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Speaker 2: this goes for?

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Speaker 1: How long did they go for?

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Speaker 2: About seven years?

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Speaker 1: So you stayed Ruters.

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Speaker 2: We sat in DC for seven years, d.

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Speaker 1: For seven years. But you got your first a job

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Speaker 1: opportunity at Ruter's what did you do after that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was producing and gathering news for a couple

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Speaker 2: of years for Routers and Channel seven, and then I

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Speaker 2: moved into international aid work. So I saw the signal

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Speaker 2: of change coming down the pipeline for the business of news,

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Speaker 2: and I switched into working for a major international aid organization.

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Speaker 2: So essentially what that meant was Iland in Baghdad Island

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Speaker 2: in Georgia into.

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Speaker 1: BLC Georgia in the ex Soviet country.

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Speaker 2: The one that the Russians invaded in about two thousand

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Speaker 2: and eight. So I switched from news. I was addicted

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Speaker 2: to being in a newsroom because we were I was

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Speaker 2: always part of an ultra high performance news team, which

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Speaker 2: was a very addictive way to be working. But one

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Speaker 2: day I was walking down the street, walking down K Street,

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Speaker 2: which is pretty close to the White House. It all

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Speaker 2: feels really good, it looks good, it's all shiny and new,

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Speaker 2: and there's lots of things to be There's lots of

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Speaker 2: things that keep you going in a town like that

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Speaker 2: because there's always so much happening. But one day I

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Speaker 2: was walking to the Al Jazeera English news bureau where

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Speaker 2: I was freelancing that day, and instead of picking up

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Speaker 2: a copy of The New York Times, I found myself

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Speaker 2: looking at scanning the news headlines on my BlackBerry, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, this is a really interesting signs of change.

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Speaker 2: Because if I'm a journalist being paid to produce content

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Speaker 2: that as a consumer I'm not prepared to pay for,

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Speaker 2: then the business model of news is failing right in

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Speaker 2: front of me, and I'm a part of it. So

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Speaker 2: what I'm going to do? So I ran through the options,

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Speaker 2: and for me, you know, I thought, what if my

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Speaker 2: behavior scale this is you know, two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 2: What if my behavior scale, like what if ten thousand

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Speaker 2: people stopped picking up a paper? What if a million

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Speaker 2: people stopped picking up a paper? Then what's going to

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Speaker 2: happen to the news business? So I decided to resign

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Speaker 2: pretty shortly after that, go into international aid. And then

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Speaker 2: I found myself in Baghdad pretty shortly after.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 2: In Iraq. Yeah, but we were running major programs in

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Speaker 2: Afghanistan as.

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Speaker 1: Well, So that's that's pretty hectic. It was pretty hectic

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Speaker 1: going from Washington, a nice safe environment to Bagdad. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was a war or war well, but it was

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Speaker 1: sort of sort of rebuilding, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: At that stage, well, it was still volatile. It was

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Speaker 2: still a very active war zone in two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 2: So I literally literally land. I mean, it was just

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Speaker 2: like an out of body experience.

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Speaker 1: What does that? What does international aid meet? Like you're

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Speaker 1: going around helping people who were underprivileged or injured or what.

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Speaker 2: And so the aid organization I was working for had

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Speaker 2: a number of pillars that they would use to support

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Speaker 2: third world nations, and they were infrastructure, so they'd help

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Speaker 2: people rebuild, microfinance grants, so they'd help people locally engaged,

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Speaker 2: local residents come back to the city and rebuild their

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Speaker 2: business like they might be running a small mechanic shop

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Speaker 2: before the war. So micro finance, food, security, medical supplies.

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Speaker 2: So there are a number of ways that major international

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Speaker 2: groups helped rebuild a nation. And it was my job

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Speaker 2: to go in and make an assessment of the projects

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Speaker 2: that were being delivered by this organization so we could

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Speaker 2: ask for more funding from the US State Department and

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Speaker 2: US AID, which Trump is dismantling at the moment. So

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Speaker 2: so I had to prove I mean, and there's my

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Speaker 2: journalism practice that came into play. So I had to

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Speaker 2: interview people on the ground and prove that the money

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Speaker 2: that was being spent was being spent well, so we

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Speaker 2: could get another billion dollars for Iraq the following year.

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Speaker 2: It was big money. Wow, it's a big cooin.

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Speaker 1: Pretty deep experience from going from reporting what's going on

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Speaker 1: in the US or what's going on in terms of

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Speaker 1: those people operating in the US, and then off into

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Speaker 1: doing international aid. That's pretty crazy. What do you ask

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Speaker 1: that and topic? He didn't get put on a sort

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Speaker 1: of an army if couldn't go to war or something.

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Speaker 2: No, I I mean I I made a really difficult

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Speaker 2: decision because I was just about completely burnt out. Made

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Speaker 2: a really difficult decision to pack everything up and come home.

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Speaker 2: So I lost my job in the aid organization because

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Speaker 2: in principle I had flagged a fairly major misappropriation of funds.

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Speaker 2: So I recognized that funds weren't being spent in a

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Speaker 2: way that I thought the American public would approve of,

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Speaker 2: and lost my job. The CEO figured out that I

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Speaker 2: knew what was going on, so I got walked from

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Speaker 2: that job. So it was completely devastating, and I did

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Speaker 2: pick up another amazing role with the Savedar for coalition.

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Speaker 2: So basically I ended up being the communication director to

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Speaker 2: help stop the genocide in Sudan at the time. So

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Speaker 2: my job for the next twelve months was to organize

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Speaker 2: the communication that hassled the Obama administration to appoint a

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Speaker 2: US Special to Sudan, which we did in the UN

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Speaker 2: General Assembly in two thousand and eight. So it all

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Speaker 2: sounds big, but all it is is about influence. It's

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Speaker 2: about how do we stop you know, the civil war

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Speaker 2: going on in Sudan?

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Speaker 1: How could do that sort of job? What do you

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Speaker 1: learn for the future, for yourself or as a tool

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Speaker 1: you get out of that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's a great question. And I think that that

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Speaker 2: that experience propelled me forward to looking for great leadership,

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Speaker 2: because when you're.

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Speaker 1: In you're looking for greater I mean.

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Speaker 2: But it allowed me to prioritize what great leadership looked like, right,

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Speaker 2: because you saw great leaders in those moments, and you

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Speaker 2: saw leaders who didn't perhaps have the influence that they

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Speaker 2: wouldn't want to have. And so for me, it helped

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Speaker 2: me recognize what great, what great leadership really looked like.

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Speaker 2: And then you know, it made me think about how

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Speaker 2: can I translate all of that experience into running a

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Speaker 2: small business into you know, eventually coming back to Australia

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Speaker 2: and developing a leadership and learning business where I was

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Speaker 2: able to translate all of those lessons into leadership programs

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Speaker 2: for big businesses like Rio, Tinto, Ostrade, NBN, Aurora.

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Speaker 1: AHP, some of your clients. Yeah, you wrote a book

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Speaker 1: around this. Yeah, what was that called future Fit Future Fit.

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Speaker 1: That's different in this book because we're as you know,

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Speaker 1: we're right in the middle of an election period. And

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Speaker 1: I had yesterday, sitting right there, the Treasurer of the

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Speaker 1: country and I put to him, you know, you're one

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Speaker 1: of the senior leaders of government right now and may

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Speaker 1: well be you know, after the election as well. And

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Speaker 1: of course you know, it's very traumatic at the moment

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Speaker 1: out there, at the moment, the stock market's gone mental,

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Speaker 1: you know, strain dollars lesson sixty cent. So I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it is as we sit here, but it

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Speaker 1: was yesterday afternoon. People are getting very nervous. I remember

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Speaker 1: this happening during the GEFs. People super innovation balances started

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Speaker 1: to go from you know, one hundred thousand down to

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Speaker 1: thirty thousand very quickly. People worried about all the money

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Speaker 1: they're putting away, their whole life of it. What is

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Speaker 1: someone like, what would you say to someone like the

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Speaker 1: prime minister or the treasurer or any senior person in

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Speaker 1: those roles where they try to they need to build

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Speaker 1: confidence back in the system. How do they what do

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Speaker 1: they do, what do they talk about? How do they

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Speaker 1: go about it? It's a better way.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a recognition that has to happen first,

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Speaker 2: and awareness that collectively the whole nation is looking to

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Speaker 2: them for direction, protection and order in a moment where

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Speaker 2: we feel very uncertain, very chaotic, and yeah, we're trying

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Speaker 2: to log into our super funds to see what's going

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Speaker 2: on there.

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Speaker 1: And it's funny you should say that. It's funnish you

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Speaker 1: say that because only a week ago some of those

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Speaker 1: super funds who were compromised, yes, cyber attack, and that

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Speaker 1: would make it doubly worse. And you also said a

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Speaker 1: really really good point there. I think at least we

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Speaker 1: need them to recognize that there's a problem sort of

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Speaker 1: do they need to have a solution as well or

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Speaker 1: just recognize the problem.

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Speaker 2: I think recognition and an acknowledgment publicly of the problem.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that we hear that enough. We don't

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Speaker 2: hear politicians saying we really understand how it feels to

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Speaker 2: be supporting three kids with three jobs, trying to put

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Speaker 2: food on the table, trying to make things work, Like

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Speaker 2: I don't hear enough politicians connecting in a real way

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Speaker 2: with their constituents by recognizing what the pain the people

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Speaker 2: are feeling. I mean, surely you must see that as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, do you think that's the reason for that

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Speaker 1: is you get paid, getting paid a lot more money

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Speaker 1: than say, their constituency in whatever area they might be.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's got anything to do with the

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Speaker 2: kind of coin there on. I think I rarely see

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Speaker 2: leaders spend enough time on the front line of change,

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Speaker 2: And when you're not close to change, you don't understand

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Speaker 2: how change impacts people. And the most important thing that

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Speaker 2: we all need to understand about change, particularly leaders, is

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Speaker 2: that we are addicted to sameness. We love our routine

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Speaker 2: and we don't like change. That's how we're wired, So

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Speaker 2: we associate change automatically with loss. Like imagine, I said,

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Speaker 2: you imagine for everyone listening, you know I'm your boss,

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Speaker 2: and I say, you know there's an email coming your way,

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Speaker 2: and the heading is, you know, we need to talk

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Speaker 2: like you're going to automatically default to a loss. You're

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Speaker 2: going to default to that means something really negative. That's

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Speaker 2: a threat to my security, my stability, my status, my financials,

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Speaker 2: whatever it might be. I'm not sure that leaders recognize

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Speaker 2: how deeply people are impacted by any degree of change.

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Speaker 2: We're not wide for it, we don't like it. You know,

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Speaker 2: we are constantly clinging to what we know because we

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Speaker 2: love certainty. Now, I would say to people, and I

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Speaker 2: say to people in my leadership cohorts, what we need

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Speaker 2: to do in that moment is interrupt that thought pattern.

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Speaker 2: And while we recognize that the situation may not be great,

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Speaker 2: we also need to find the upside in what change

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Speaker 2: provides us, Like, what's the opportunity in this change? How

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Speaker 2: can we demonstrate some personal agency in moments where we

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Speaker 2: do feel uncertain, and how do we understand what we

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Speaker 2: can control and can't control.

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Speaker 1: That's very interesting because I said to their treasurer, and

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Speaker 1: he told her quite a hard rendering story about when

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Speaker 1: he was a young man, as still at school, that

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Speaker 1: he was a bit wayward when he was growing up,

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Speaker 1: and largely probably because he didn't have proper parenting as

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Speaker 1: a kid, and his mum and dad split up, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Those things can affect a boy, I guess, and a girl.

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Speaker 1: But he had two older sisters, and he said that

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Speaker 1: he met up with a guy who was a teacher

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Speaker 1: at the school actually sort of took him out of

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Speaker 1: his wing and sort of talk to him and gave

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Speaker 1: him some mentoring, and as a result of that, he

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Speaker 1: decided he wanted to become a politician or be in

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Speaker 1: the public policy environment, not a politician necessarily, and in

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Speaker 1: terms of his leadership journey, he saw that as a

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Speaker 1: very important thing. But he also mentioned so first I

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Speaker 1: want to say to you, ask you how important is

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Speaker 1: that in the leadership journey that you get mentorship from

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Speaker 1: somebody who's valuable.

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Speaker 2: I think that role models models the right role model

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Speaker 2: at the right time is an absolute game changer. And

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that we would both now think about the

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Speaker 2: people who had an impact on us for our lives.

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Speaker 2: And I think we need to rethink what role models

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Speaker 2: are these days because I do not believe we should

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Speaker 2: be basing role models around money, fame, or power. I

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Speaker 2: think we should be looking at why people do the

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Speaker 2: things they do instead of what they actually do. And

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Speaker 2: I think the right role model, a strong role model,

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Speaker 2: positions us to establish a stronger action of values. So

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Speaker 2: a great role model really serves three functions. They inspire

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Speaker 2: us by showing us what's possible. They can influence our

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Speaker 2: goals and our motivation, and they serve as a behavioral

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Speaker 2: example of success. And I think that's the key word.

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Speaker 2: If behaviors and intentions of our role models expire, then

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Speaker 2: we tend to look elsewhere for a new role model.

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Speaker 2: But I had the most incredible professor at university who

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Speaker 2: said to me at eighteen, you can do anything you want.

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Speaker 2: You can go around the world, and you can do

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Speaker 2: anything you want. And I believed him. I believed him,

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Speaker 2: and so I did. And I had that in the

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Speaker 2: back of my mind from the age of eighteen, and

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Speaker 2: that was such a powerful and simple throwaway statement for him,

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Speaker 2: but it meant a lot to me, and it's something

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Speaker 2: that I carried with me. It gave me the confidence

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Speaker 2: because I thought if doctor Peter Young, who at the

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Speaker 2: time I think was about sixty, who'd been a war

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Speaker 2: correspondent and being to all these places that I wanted

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Speaker 2: to go to looked at me, and he saw in

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Speaker 2: me potential, and if he could just throw a few

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Speaker 2: lines my way, he wouldn't have He would have had

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Speaker 2: no idea how that impacted me. But that gave me

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Speaker 2: the confidence to think I really can go and do that,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes that's all we need in that moment of

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Speaker 2: uncertainty or vulnerability. So I think we should always be

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Speaker 2: looking for role models that demonstrate the kind of behaviors

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Speaker 2: and intentions that we feel aligned with. And we all

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Speaker 2: know what an anti role model looks like. Right at

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Speaker 2: some point in our careers. We've had someone in our

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Speaker 2: life who we've thought, oh, I actually don't want to

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Speaker 2: be that person. And I had that in a newsroom.

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Speaker 2: You know. That was one of the reasons why I

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Speaker 2: decided to get out of news, not just because the

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Speaker 2: business model was failing, but because I would consistently be

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Speaker 2: looking around the newsroom and think that that's not demonstrating

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Speaker 2: good leadership. I don't believe I don't want to be

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Speaker 2: that person, you know, when I'm in my mid fifties,

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Speaker 2: So how do I sort of change course? Now? But

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Speaker 2: a great role model is a game changes. So I

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Speaker 2: don't think we should ever it doesn't matter who you

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Speaker 2: are and where you work in society. We should never

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Speaker 2: underestimate the impact that we have on people around us

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Speaker 2: because mental sponsors and advisors. Advisors are so foundational to

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Speaker 2: giving that advice that we need to hear in the

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Speaker 2: right moments.

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Speaker 1: It's funny the treasure said something like, if you aren't

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Speaker 1: these aren't these words. But if you are given a talent,

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Speaker 1: you have responsibility to make use of that talent. And

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Speaker 1: that's sort of I think that's sort of what you said,

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Speaker 1: because most people don't if they've become influential, don't recognize

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Speaker 1: a their talent. They might think they've got a talent

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Speaker 1: certainly ways, but they don't realize what their real talent is,

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Speaker 1: but they don't actually do anything with it. A lot

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Speaker 1: of times that they don't pay it forward to any

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Speaker 1: audience for that matter. And that's sort of what he does.

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Speaker 1: That's what he tries to do. I mean, it seems

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Speaker 1: to me that I said to him, I said, Treasurer,

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Speaker 1: to make change, it takes courage. I wonder if you're

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Speaker 1: I was talking to him about when I don't want

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Speaker 1: to get political, but I was talking about when his

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Speaker 1: predecessor in the Labor Party was a guy called Chris Bowen,

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Speaker 1: and Chris Bowen in the election with when Bill Shorten

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Speaker 1: was going for Prime minister, decided to bring in a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of policy changes, financial policy changes to and

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Speaker 1: presented them to the Electric before the election, things like

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Speaker 1: silly things like get rid of need to gearing change,

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Speaker 1: the couple of games, takes in lots of people's home investments,

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Speaker 1: you get rid of Frankie credits, which in a lot,

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of old Astrayans rely on to fund

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Speaker 1: their lifestyle. And of course Shorten lost the election. And

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Speaker 1: I said, sometimes it takes a lot of courage to

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Speaker 1: say those things. You, on the other hand, don't say

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Speaker 1: anything controversial. Does that mean as a leader you're not

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Speaker 1: being courageous? You know what would your mentor from when

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Speaker 1: you were sixteen or seventeen say to you about that?

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Speaker 1: And you said to it before, we don't like change.

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Speaker 1: And governments sort of know that. They poll and they do,

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Speaker 1: they check things out, they don't make mistakes too many

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Speaker 1: times these days, Well that Trump's proven that theory a

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Speaker 1: bit wrongs. Yeah, totally, but as the Australian government, and

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Speaker 1: I said to him, like, do you ever feel as

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Speaker 1: though you're not being courageous enough as a leader. How

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Speaker 1: do you reconcile A. I want to be the leader.

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Speaker 1: I've got to stay as I need to stay as

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Speaker 1: leader to get my ambitions done. I don't mean personal ambitions,

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Speaker 1: my ambitions for the nation done. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: if I'm too courageous, I could lose the election because Australians,

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Speaker 1: as you said, people don't like change.

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Speaker 2: I think that people get paid to have an opinion,

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Speaker 2: whether you're a CEO, regardless of your leadership position, people

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Speaker 2: vote you in.

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Speaker 1: So take the risk.

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Speaker 2: Take the risk. Absolutely, there's not enough risk going on

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Speaker 2: across his country in business.

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Speaker 1: Don't you think I'm not in favorable the way he

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Speaker 1: does it at all? But I make too many courageous

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Speaker 1: take too many courageous steps. Sometimes they turn around and

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Speaker 1: do work so well. But I don't really care care.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't give a shit. I'm not trying to become

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Speaker 1: the treasurer of the Prime Minister. I mean I'm running

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Speaker 1: my own show and I can do it. I want

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Speaker 1: sort of thing, and I'm lucky enough to be in

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Speaker 1: that position. He's not, And it's a hard thing. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it can be hard to reconcile because look, I let's

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Speaker 1: say he's speaking, I have this ambition for this nation

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Speaker 1: to do blah blah blah blah, but I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to I need to be the treasurer in order to

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Speaker 1: do it. I need my party to win in order

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Speaker 1: to do it. So I'm not going to do anything

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Speaker 1: crazy at the moment. I'm just gonna look at the

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Speaker 1: poles where people don't want to change, and I'll make

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Speaker 1: sure I just play that game. Whereas other people will

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Speaker 1: go and they just set the joint light like Trump

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Speaker 1: and bugger the consequences. I'm just going to set the

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Speaker 1: joint Logers. I actually, I presume you honestly believes that

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Speaker 1: what he's doing at the moment has actually become better

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Speaker 1: for Americans. How's that reconciled.

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Speaker 2: He's out playing golf, well, the whole well, the world's

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Speaker 2: blowing up, Like I mean, I saw that morning, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, to me, that is that exercising leadership? I don't.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not really sure. I think I think

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Speaker 2: you have to stay connected to what's going on in

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Speaker 2: the community, so be present with everyone absolutely. How can

437
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 2: you make decisions that are really well informed? If you're

438
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 2: on the top floor and everyone else is running around

439
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 2: on the ground floor, you've you've got no direct line

440
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 2: of sight, you know, with what's going on, how things

441
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 2: are changing, and how people are experiencing change. So I

442
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 2: think regardless of where you are where you sit as

443
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 2: a leader, you know the most incredible leaders that I've

444
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 2: worked with, and Mike Snider at Bunnings is a great example.

445
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: He's out there sweeping the floor full clean and tidy,

446
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 2: you know, at the end of every day with his staff,

447
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 2: so he understands, he's listening to the conversations, he's hearing

448
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: what's going on. He's on the front line of change.

449
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 2: So regardless of where we sit in any leadership position,

450
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 2: it pays to stay connected to what people are going through,

451
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 2: whether they're customers, constituents, or you know, whoever is a

452
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,959
Speaker 2: recipient of your leadership. If we're not connected, how can

453
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 2: we make decisions at the right time that are going

454
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 2: to be in the best interests for that collective?

455
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 1: It. Yeah, and I keep coming back to financial things,

456
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: but I remember when the COVID hit and everything was

457
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: sort of traumatic, quite traumatic, and the Reserve Bank governor

458
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: is not the current Reserve band government. The old Reserve

459
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 1: Bank governor was up there talking about now I'm going

460
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: to put in trades down to point one and what

461
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: it was. And then we had the Prime Minister saying

462
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: something we had the Probably more importantly, we had the

463
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: state premiers and their health ministers telling us every day

464
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: with so many COVID cases, so many deaths, as only

465
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: people in hospit all this sort of stuff daily and

466
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: I thought it was I just wonder why we don't

467
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: get the Reserve Being governor, who at the time was

468
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: different to the current Reserve being. Why we just get

469
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: him up there along with say the Prime Minister and

470
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: along with say I don't know, the Minister for Health,

471
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: for Federal mins f Health.

472
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: The whole gang.

473
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 1: It's a gang, and just put them up on because

474
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: this used to have many I remember as a kid

475
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: this just happened. Put them on the ABC because you know,

476
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: it's respected national broadcaster, not to say the others aren't,

477
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: but as a respect to national broadcasts, and you know

478
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: it's the owned by the government. And let's say we're

479
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 1: going to do an interview on Sunday night at seven

480
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 1: pm to all Australians. Not an interview, but have a chat,

481
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: just tell you what's going on with this COVID stuff

482
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 1: and all's one though not not separately, all together, and

483
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,719
Speaker 1: explain what we're thinking and how we're walking, walking our

484
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: way through. I wonder why they do that.

485
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 2: I feel like, I mean, the greatest missed opportunity in

486
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 2: most leadership practices is communication, right. It's the most important

487
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 2: part of having influence, communicating change and keeping people informed,

488
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 2: and yet we haven't. We don't see that enough. I

489
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 2: think across corporate Australia we didn't see it. Then across COVID,

490
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: and what was interesting to me was we had different

491
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: states with very different ways of handling things, and so

492
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: any continuity would have been helpful in the overall approach

493
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 2: to how the country was tackling COVID, and there was

494
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: so much uncertainty and fear, and we certainly did not

495
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 2: see enough. I mean, as a former journalist looking at

496
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 2: the way that played out, the greatest missed opportunity was

497
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 2: more continuity in communication with people about what was going on.

498
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 2: I know we had daily briefings, right, but they were

499
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 2: all different. They were all different. So the average Australian

500
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 2: is sitting around with relatives in another state. In some

501
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 2: cases people who are terminally unwell in other state with

502
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 2: no idea if or when they were going to see

503
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 2: them again because all the states have different rules. So

504
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: a class and that will be a case study in

505
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 2: universities and used to come because.

506
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: They didn't they did have a national group, but they

507
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 1: met in they met in private.

508
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 2: I met in private. We didn't know, we didn't know.

509
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: We didn't get to talk to, you know, the primacy

510
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: sit premiers. But it was a private conversation. And I

511
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: used to think, well, just let me know, Like I'm

512
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: not dumb. They don't really a wood duck.

513
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm happy to listen, give me a And

514
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: we were complying a summary, yes, and we were complying.

515
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: And I think the the damage that was done was

516
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: the erosion of trust. And you know, the erosion of

517
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 2: trust and governments has shifted to you know, to business,

518
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: So everyone who goes to work is now looking to

519
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: their business as that trusted source of information and cohesion.

520
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: They're not necessarily looking to the government anymore because of

521
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 2: how much trust was lost over that period of time.

522
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: And I wonder what's going to happen if we have

523
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: another version of the pandemic, I suspect we will not

524
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: see people be as compliant. I completely agree, and I

525
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: don't think we can underestimate what's lost when that erosion

526
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: of trust happens, whether that is in the workplace or

527
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 2: socially or in the community or whatever context, because you know,

528
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: the DNA of trust is really straightforward. When I'm thinking

529
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: about whether or not to trust you, I'm asking myself

530
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: three questions. Is this person consistent? You know, is there

531
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 2: are there behaviors consistent? Do they have the character? Do

532
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: they have the resources, the skills and the wherewithal to

533
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 2: do what they tell me they're going to do? Character?

534
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 2: Consistency and competency? And are they competent? Do they are

535
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: they prepared for this? So if we see a crack

536
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 2: in any of in that thread of DNA, the DNA

537
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: of trust, we're going to step back. And where that

538
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 2: erosion of trust has already happened, it's very difficult to

539
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: repair trust. And I think we saw that happen at

540
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: scale during COVID, and I think across the globe totally.

541
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: Do you set the communication peace on leadership? Just generally,

542
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: I can ask you three parts three questions around that

543
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: So the first question is what do I communicate in

544
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: terms of content? Second question is how do I communicate?

545
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: In other words, how often is it?

546
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 2: Frequency?

547
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: Is it like if I'm a business leader, is it

548
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: via zoom or is it or is it in person

549
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: or et cetera? And when do I communicate it? Do

550
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: I do it? Do I wait? Like we've got a

551
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: global financial issue potentially arising at the moment, Do I

552
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: wait until it becomes a problem or do I start

553
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: talking about it now? So? What how and when we

554
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: do leaders to communicate?

555
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 2: Anytime? Every communication is about change, So whenever there's a change,

556
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: I mean it depends on the context, right. So I

557
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 2: was actually watching Scott Gallaway yesterday on Instagram and I

558
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 2: thought I loved that he jumped on He was walking

559
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: around a college tour and he jumped on Instagram and

560
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,959
Speaker 2: he started communicating what was going on with the selloff.

561
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: So generally speaking, every piece of communication is about change,

562
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: otherwise you wouldn't be communicating. So anytime there's something to

563
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: communicate around change, do it?

564
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: So how do I just stop this? So on change,

565
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: do you mean something that's changing out there better what

566
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: I'm used.

567
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 2: To, Anything that's going to disrupt the status quo. Anything

568
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: that impacts your clients, your customers, your constituents, your stuff, yep,

569
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: your stuff. Absolutely, anything that's going to impact them that

570
00:30:53,480 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 2: needs to be communicated. Secondly, communicate candidly and frequently. So

571
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: what people want to feel like is the conversation we're

572
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: having now. I want to feel like that tone and

573
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: style and everything about this would be carried over if

574
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: we're sitting around having a coffee, right, So you want

575
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 2: to be canned in conversational in the way you communicate.

576
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: So it's not written off a script.

577
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: I ignore the script. Yeah, and I think that many

578
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: many leaders know that leaders we are a really great

579
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 2: communicator to spend hours preparing as well that people don't

580
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: really you know, that's not really shared, but it's something

581
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: that they do privately. But they prioritize communication as a

582
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 2: skill in the same way they prioritize reading a P

583
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: and L sheet, in the same way that they prioritize

584
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 2: other technical skills that keep their business going. So prioritize

585
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 2: when something needs to be when there needs to be

586
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: comes around change, do it conversationally and candidly in a

587
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: way that's natural to you and effortless to you, what

588
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: was the third one?

589
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: And how often? Like you know, what's the process? So

590
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: I do it every day? Well, because we saw the

591
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: drink they did every day, But do I do this

592
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: every day? Like good examples today, Let's say we talked

593
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: yesterday about look, guys, there's a global issue at the

594
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: moment in relation austrain dollar, et cetera, et cetera. Do

595
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: I go back the next day and say, look, here's

596
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: an update.

597
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would treat it like breaking news.

598
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: So I would so anything new that comes up or

599
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: any change in from the day before.

600
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: This is the missed opportunity that super funds have with

601
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 2: all of their all of their members.

602
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: I haven't seen one super fund, but I don't.

603
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: See a single super fund communicating anything, and I haven't

604
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: none to saved for the past hour of many years.

605
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: Like that, to me, will end up costing them in

606
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: some way. If I was a CEO of a super fund,

607
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: I'd be doing a live video link every day to

608
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: whatever member I wanted to join that zoom call and

609
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: be communicating anything that's going to help me feel more

610
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: comfortable about this change that we're experiencing. That's the I

611
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: believe people get paid to demonstrate leadership if they're the CEO.

612
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 2: I also believe that CEOs get paid to communicate change,

613
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 2: you know, as frequently as they feel necessary.

614
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: So sort of like you're saying, it's nearly like a

615
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: job spec like you're going to put in a CEO. You're

616
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 1: getting paid the extra amount of dollars. Part of your

617
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: job specification is that you must communicate. Obviously you must community,

618
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: but you must communicate when there's change that effects on

619
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: either clients, yeah, suppliers, staff, et cetera. You must communicate.

620
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,959
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I'm coming from a comms background, you know,

621
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: seventeen years in journalism, but I don't I think that

622
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 2: that is a basic, like a basic criteria as a leader.

623
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: I think comms is part of leadership and we don't

624
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: see it demonstrated enough because the Australian business community anyway

625
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 2: seems to be you know, they've gotten away with having

626
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: barely any comms directly. There are only very few Australian

627
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: leaders like Shane Elliott was a great example a enz.

628
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: He's putting himself up. He has put himself up previously

629
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: on radio, He's done Facebook lives with clients, He's on

630
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 2: the front line understanding what's happening. There are very few

631
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 2: Australian leaders across business community who really do that and

632
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: mean it. And I think that if we saw more

633
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 2: of that, we would have more trust in business, in

634
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: big business, and if we saw it with government leaders

635
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 2: who were doing it in ways that the less orchestrated,

636
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 2: I think we'd also have a greater sense of trust him.

637
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: Less of a performance less it's.

638
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: Pretty performative at the moment, I think we could agree.

639
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: I mean it kills me, But I actually said, to

640
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: the truth of yessays said, mate, you're very polished, and

641
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: which I admire. He's very polished and very structured and

642
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: very in control and sensible about what he's doing. In

643
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: other words, I wouldn't be able to put him off balance.

644
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: I know I couldn't get but he's at polished. I

645
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: couldn't put him off balance. I could have tried, but

646
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: I didn't want to try. But I felt like he's

647
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 1: he'll have a good comeback and a personal audience would

648
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: know whether I was right, here's right or wrong. But

649
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 1: I know I don't have people on my should debate anyway.

650
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: But because the debate can happen on Sky news on

651
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: Thursday night or whatever. But that's not my game. I'm

652
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: not here to debate with anybody. I'm here to try

653
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: and understand what's going on. Just can I go back

654
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: to that trust element for and I think it's really important.

655
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 1: You said the word familiar So it's funny. I often

656
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: say to myself, who do I trust the most? I

657
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: trust my family the most. Why do I trust my

658
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: family the most? It doesn't necessarily mean I like everything

659
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: they do, but I know I've watched them all of

660
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: their lives, and I know what they're likely to do.

661
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 1: I have a sort of strong sense of outcomes. So

662
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: and because when I talk about brands, I often say

663
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: a brand to be trusted, it won't happen overnight. People

664
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: have to become familiar with it, as in a family sense.

665
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: You can even make mistakes, just like in a family,

666
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: but you still forgive your family at the end of

667
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: the day because I don't know your family, and you

668
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 1: trust them, and because you trust them, they're your family.

669
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: Because your family you trust with, let the go both ways.

670
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: And familiarity is like if it's a brand, it's about

671
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: me seeing it more often. The more often I see

672
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: the brand and I don't even know what the ads about,

673
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: but I just see it.

674
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: But there's a presence there, there's a visibility.

675
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: And so how closely aligned is trust and familiarity as

676
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: opposed to you're not going to do the wrong thing

677
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: by me? That just those two is a very much

678
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: in a serviceable familiarity. I know who that organization is

679
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: by virtual the fact they've been around for ten years.

680
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: How strong is that?

681
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 2: I think what's most important is when you feel like

682
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 2: there's been an erosion of trust or trust has been

683
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 2: undermined in some way, your response to that is most important,

684
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 2: whether you're a brand or a business owner. So and

685
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: I see this on you know, in small ways locally myself,

686
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 2: with local businesses getting negative reviews, they'll often call ten

687
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 2: people who trust the business to get online and put

688
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: up a positive comment Google. Yeah, yeah, basically. But I

689
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 2: think what's important is what you do about how you

690
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: respond in those moments where trust has been eroded. And

691
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 2: if you've got a formidia, if you've already been if

692
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: you've been practicing visibility and familiarity as a brand for

693
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: years before something goes wrong, then you've got a much

694
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 2: better chance of recovering that relationship with people who.

695
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: Are important to you just by virtual time.

696
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, but again a commitment to communication and a

697
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: commitment to being visible and being familiar in moments where

698
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: you don't necessarily have to, but you choose to do that.

699
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 2: Because if you're a business that's grounded in integrity and

700
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: building relationships for the long term, that's part of the strategy.

701
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: It's something that will come naturally to you because you

702
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: don't necessarily need a big strategy around it. But trust

703
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: is built over time. It's lost very quickly, but it's

704
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: what you do in those moments where it's eroded that matters.

705
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 2: It's how you respond in those moments.

706
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: So we've got some in Australia. We've got a couple

707
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: of really big organizations, two in particular who I won't

708
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: name them, but one of which is a mining company

709
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 1: from Australia and another one is a city based tech

710
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: company and there's been a trust erosion relation to both

711
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 1: in both examples of the CEO, dash chairman, leader, leaders

712
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 1: of the business and the big shoulders in the business.

713
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: And what would you because you don't know what I'm

714
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: talking about in particular, but what would you say to

715
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 1: those organizations because it seems like those people are pushing

716
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 1: back saying, well, look this's my business, I control it.

717
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: I've been good for you so far, trust me. But

718
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: they haven't really come out and said it, like I

719
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: haven't seen them get on the front foot and actually

720
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: talk about it. Definitely not going to get on to

721
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: a teally out or anything like that, but I haven't

722
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: seen any interviews from them. They've sort of gone to ground.

723
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: And there's that old saying in PR give good news

724
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: oxygen and some other bad news.

725
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if I believe either of those, you know,

726
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 2: having watched good news and bad news play out for

727
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: so long in my career, I think that the brands

728
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 2: and the businesses that have demonstrated longevity have demonstrated consistent communication.

729
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: Warren Buffett good example, totally unbelievably.

730
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 2: And what have you got to lose by doing a

731
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: live stream and talking to your people? What have you

732
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 2: got to lose? And so I think that that visibility

733
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 2: again is fundamental to the trust equation. And if you

734
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: want to disappear, that's fine, but I think there'll be

735
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,240
Speaker 2: a cost to that over time. And you're already raising

736
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: issues around trust because you haven't seen either of these

737
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: leaders come out and say anything. So there's a great

738
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 2: example of what we're talking about.

739
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I know both of them, and I thought

740
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,280
Speaker 1: to myself, have you asked them why they No? I haven't.

741
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: I thought. In fact, one of them I've done a

742
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: show on with and the other one once stage that

743
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: was a shohold of mine. And I always considered more

744
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: of them to be quite a good friend. But I

745
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: wonder as a leader, just a community leader, not in

746
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: their particular industry leader. Do you think someone like me

747
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: I should be reaching out to them?

748
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 2: Why would you reach out to them to give the

749
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 2: fair back that you've already given them.

750
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, or just to talk about what I just talked about. Hey, guys,

751
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 1: I haven't. I mean, you've just sort of gone aground.

752
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: Why don't you.

753
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 2: Well, you know, if they were adults, I mean part

754
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 2: of me thinks they're educated adults right in the show.

755
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: They have understandable leadership there, No, And I.

756
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 2: Do think that there's a disconnect where I do think

757
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: that you. For a long time, That's what I got

758
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 2: paid to do. I was a media trainer's top a

759
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: six leaders. I'd come in and I'm the bad I

760
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 2: can be the bad guy, you know, and they're in

761
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,919
Speaker 2: their staff would say to me, look, this person has

762
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 2: moved from CFO to CEO. Bottom line is he's not

763
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 2: behaving like the CEO. He's still behaving like the CFO.

764
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 2: So we need you to come in and play the

765
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 2: bad cop and to you know, basically say that to

766
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 2: him and elevate his presence, you know, on camera. So

767
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 2: I'd happily do that because I was an outsider a

768
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 2: lot of people that you know, this is an interesting

769
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: part of leadership and role models. Who are we surrounding

770
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: ourselves with, who are our sort of personal board of directors?

771
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 2: And are we getting one version of the truth from them?

772
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 2: Do we need to be looking further afield to get

773
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: unfiltered advice from people who are watching what else is

774
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 2: changing around us. So maybe that could be a really

775
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 2: valuable conversation that would pay off. And you know, I

776
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 2: know that any leader who has any degree of humility

777
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 2: would welcome an observation that would bring them, bring those

778
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 2: leaders closer to their their customers, closer to understanding what's

779
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: changing for those customers, and also grow the business at

780
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 2: the same time.

781
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: So why not what about a leader is really highly

782
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: skilled and the best person for the job in terms

783
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: of skill sets, but is shy. What do you as

784
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: a trainer type person, someone who tries to get the

785
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: best out of these individuals? How do you work with

786
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: someone like that? Do you? How do you get them

787
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: confident to sit in front of camera? Like a lot

788
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: of people, as soon as that camera's on, they change.

789
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: I mean I see it in this job. And in fact,

790
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: the very first time I ever had to do something

791
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: in front of a camera, which is like a long

792
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: long time ago, I remember like, well, like it was

793
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: a bit scary, like yeah, it's intimidating. I got nervous.

794
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: I don't ask why when I look back at it,

795
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: but I just did. What do you do for these people?

796
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 2: We have to get out of our own road.

797
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

798
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: We have to whatever?

799
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: We get over yourself.

800
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 2: You have to get over yourself. I mean, don't. I've

801
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 2: had seventeen years as an on camera news reporter. I

802
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 2: do not enjoy. I would rather be in your seat.

803
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 2: But the message that I have around adapting more effectively

804
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 2: to change is far more important than how I feel

805
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 2: about myself. So I've got to get out of my

806
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: own road. And that is the same advice I give

807
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 2: to anyone who I've worked with previously who has a

808
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 2: job needs to communicate change but doesn't like being on camera.

809
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: Just get out of your own road, because it's actually

810
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: not about you. It's about your audience. It's always and

811
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: only about your audience and how and the kind of

812
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 2: influence that you want to have over them, regardless of

813
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 2: how shy you are.

814
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 1: Let's say, and I see this all the time, a

815
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: lot of these organizations have a corporate affairs person and

816
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: usually when it's pretty bad news, they said that person

817
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: had to be the spokesperson. So and you're read in

818
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: the paper a spokesperson for said blah blah blah as

819
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: opposed to the individual. Is that do you think that's

820
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: damaging to their organization?

821
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 2: I mean it depends on the scale of the issue.

822
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: Less it's an important issue and they just run a

823
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: a cover.

824
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean we all know how that plays out.

825
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 2: I think it's a I think that anytime a CEO.

826
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: I think if it's if you're a CEO running a

827
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: business and the business has a problem, again, get out

828
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: of your own road and get on camera and start

829
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: communicating that change to people who are important to you,

830
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 2: whoever they are.

831
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: Is it important to see you made a mistake?

832
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 2: If definitely well, I mean obviously that their lawyers would

833
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: disagree without depending on the situation. But I think that

834
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 2: that only builds trust if you have an honest and

835
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 2: direct line of communication with your constituents. And I watched

836
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 2: this with I won't name names, but one of the

837
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: big banking guys, probably about seven or eight years ago,

838
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 2: everyone knew he was really arrogant, didn't really feel any

839
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 2: obligation whatsoever to communicate to any of his forty thousand

840
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 2: staff or hundreds of thousands of customers. Now, how much

841
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 2: social capital do you think he had when something went

842
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: wrong and the board was looking at him and think

843
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 2: thinking he's got to go right. I would argue that

844
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 2: Shane Elliott has a much better chance of staying in

845
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 2: the gig long term. I'd argue that he has longevity

846
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 2: because every day he's out demonstrating that he cares a

847
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 2: lot about what customers think, what his employees think about

848
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 2: the place to work. So I think you build social

849
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 2: capital over time, and that capital may have a payoff

850
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 2: in a moment where you're finding life difficult or where

851
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: your job is up for grabs.

852
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, where someone might be challenging your position. That's exactly

853
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: as a result of an error of the whole bank.

854
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 1: And that is because there's no one, very rare as

855
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 1: an error in a big organization responsibility to one person.

856
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: It's usually the responsibility of many. But because you're you're

857
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 1: at the top of the tree, you take the blame

858
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: for it.

859
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.

860
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,800
Speaker 1: And you know, I think we said a lot in banking,

861
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: and I think.

862
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 2: There's a disproportionate amount of pressure on CEOs these days.

863
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 2: I think there you know, the burnout, liability and scrutiny

864
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 2: is is at a point where it's never been before.

865
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 2: I wrote an article about this for the fin Review

866
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 2: last week. You know, the Global CEO Index has shown

867
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: that there's a higher turnover of CEOs because of burnout,

868
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 2: liability and scrutiny and increased attention. And that's not just

869
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 2: damaging to them, it's damaging to emerging leaders who are

870
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: looking at their boss thinking, you know what that does?

871
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: It it's not worth it. Maybe there's another way, Maybe

872
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 2: there's an adjacent pathway here, And I'm going to trade

873
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 2: power and prestige for peace for peace and privacy right,

874
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,760
Speaker 2: and who wouldn't want to do that in today's world.

875
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 2: But that's a pretty dangerous precedent to set when you

876
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 2: look at the kind of you know, the lower is

877
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 2: the barrier to entry for leadership over time. So I

878
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: think that we look at CEOs and we do expect

879
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 2: them to be superhuman because they're not only running these

880
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: enormous organizations, they're running families. They're expected to be culture shapers,

881
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 2: they're expected to be community leaders. So we do expect

882
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 2: a lot. Our expectations are disproper austuately high of a CEO,

883
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 2: so I think we need to be careful about that.

884
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 2: But when it comes to the basic role of a CEO,

885
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 2: it's not just about growing the business and keeping shareholders happy.

886
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 2: I think it's also about communicating change where necessary. So

887
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 2: I think that's I think communication leadership is a fairly

888
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 2: basic basic ask, but we don't see enough of it.

889
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: And that issue whereby people who are looking around thinking this,

890
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: why would I do this? Because of the things you

891
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,439
Speaker 1: just mentioned, burnout, et cetera. Do you think that could

892
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: be a reason why some people take the view that

893
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 1: we at the quality of our politicians today are less

894
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: than they used to be and because it's lower the bar.

895
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: Well, this would you be a politician? Why not?

896
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: For the matter of drama you have to put up

897
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 1: with that, don't pay you enough?

898
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: When you can have peace and privacy, why would you

899
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 2: go for the profile and prestige. That's the problem, because

900
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 2: people like you, who should be running for office can

901
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 2: afford not to. You choose to have influences.

902
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: But how do we correct that? Then? How do you

903
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 1: how how would you suggest that we're a nation we

904
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: start to try and correct that. Should we pull back

905
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: a little bit from laying so much scrutiny on them?

906
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: What's this?

907
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's really a complicated question

908
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: because the whole system is designed. I mean, it's public sector,

909
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 2: it's not private sector, right, There's no money in it,

910
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 2: There's no It's a very difficult it's a very difficult

911
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 2: and complicated game to play, and for most of us,

912
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: by the time we are in our forties, fifties, sixties,

913
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: and when we're most qualified to play that game, we

914
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 2: don't necessarily have the energy to So I'm not I

915
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 2: don't have the answer to that. I don't know if

916
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 2: many people do. I'd love to hear it.

917
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 1: So what right? I love? So I could quickly talk

918
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: about your book. So your book called Adapts a mastering

919
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: Change in four steps? Can you do? I have to

920
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: read the whole book to get the four steps.

921
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 2: You don't know this is. This is about adaptability in

922
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 2: its purest form, being about anticipating and influencing change and

923
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: not reacting and responding to change so we get ahead

924
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: of it. This is for anyone who feels who doesn't

925
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 2: want to feel like they're always constantly playing catch up

926
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 2: to change. And so four steps engaged with signals, accept

927
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 2: what's changing, activate your optimism for what's next, and release

928
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 2: what is no longer fit for purpose for where you're headed.

929
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:29,919
Speaker 1: So let go of it.

930
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 2: Let go of it.

931
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, so just just on the first part that is

932
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: sort of looking out for the signs. That's rights signals. Yeah,

933
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 1: you call it signals yep. So that sort of by

934
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: definition requires people to be constantly vigilant and aware.

935
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 2: I think we can be overly vigilant. My advice is

936
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 2: choose a couple of things to pay attention to, but

937
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 2: also don't ignore that gut feeling because we all have

938
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 2: ignored and there's probably a signal of change today that

939
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 2: we're all ignoring. So I'd urge you, I'd provoke you

940
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 2: to think what is that. It might be personal, it

941
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: might be social, it might be in the workplace. Don't

942
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 2: ignore that signal of change because the closer it gets

943
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 2: to you, the less options you'll have to respond to it.

944
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 2: So if you see a signal, like when I saw

945
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: a signal in two thousand and eight about the future

946
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 2: of journalism, I made an active decision to get five

947
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: to eight years ahead of my colleagues. So always pay

948
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 2: attention to those small changes that you think I just

949
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: shouldn't be ignoring that.

950
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 1: Do you think there's a I have to finish off

951
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: on this one, but I think it's an important question.

952
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: Do you think there's a danger that the way we

953
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: live our lives, we get so caught up in our

954
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: business from day to day, whatever happens to be with

955
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: your employee or running a business doesn't really matter. Or

956
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: in government, we get so caught up with what we're

957
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:51,839
Speaker 1: doing day to day, and we convince themselves, wow, I'm

958
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: really busy. I'm going to get up really early and

959
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: to start on my stuff, and I'm going to get

960
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,919
Speaker 1: to the gym, and I've got to see the kids,

961
00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 1: and I've got to bubba all the stuff I've got

962
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: to do. I'm so damn busy that I know in

963
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: the back of my mind there's a something that's bothering me,

964
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: a signal, but I sort of either tend to ignore it,

965
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: or I ignore it, or alternatively, I just completely forget

966
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: about it altogether because I get caught up on what

967
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: I'm doing data distracted and what tools the technique would

968
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: you suggest we use to get around that that failure.

969
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 2: So get a blank piece of paper, Just draw a

970
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 2: line down the middle and eighty twenty. Just do an

971
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:34,919
Speaker 2: eighty twenty principle. So for eighty percent of my day,

972
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to spend triaging all the normal stuff right

973
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 2: to get.

974
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:39,839
Speaker 1: Through the day, get through my crab yep.

975
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 2: But I'm going to spend even just the twenty percent

976
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 2: of my day, or even just twenty minutes, exploring what

977
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 2: could be about to disrupt me, Like how do I

978
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 2: how can I take a step towards figuring out what

979
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 2: that signal is going to mean for me in a

980
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 2: month's time, in a year's time. So and that explore

981
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 2: versus exploit. So you don't free age of the day,

982
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 2: but always give yourself a few minutes to reflect on

983
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 2: confronting that signal of change, because what you don't want

984
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 2: is for that signal of change to, you know, to

985
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 2: be up close where you've got no.

986
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 1: Options, because then you're panic. Then you panic, and then

987
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: you made the worst decisions.

988
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 2: So is it.

989
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 1: Sort of like health checking? Can we do it ourselves?

990
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: If I've got a fever, I think I'll hang on

991
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: a bit of be careful, I got sore throat, maybe

992
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: I've got something wrong. But you know a lot of

993
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: people don't do a bit on my case. I don't

994
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: ignore it. Is it like health checking, of course for

995
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:37,760
Speaker 1: that type of thing, that's right. Yeah, it's pretty simple.

996
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 2: It's like a health check for life, right, And it

997
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 2: could be in the workplace where you feel like, oh,

998
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 2: you know, a friend of mine called me last week

999
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: and said, I've just lost my job, but I'm really shocked.

1000
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 2: And I said, well, I'm not shocked because for the

1001
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 2: last twelve months you've called me every week and said

1002
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 2: how much your boss hates you. So I would have

1003
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 2: picked that as a signal of change a year ago

1004
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 2: and started, you know, tidying up my CV and look

1005
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 2: for another gig. So pay attention to what those signals are,

1006
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 2: because what you want is options. You know what I've

1007
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,839
Speaker 2: wanted through my life is options. And you know, I've

1008
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 2: had amazing role models from when I was quite young,

1009
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 2: including my dad, that demonstrated that your ability to adapt

1010
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 2: to change effectively gives you options. And that's what I

1011
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:22,280
Speaker 2: think we all want in life.

1012
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: Why do you think you were? I mean, you mentioned

1013
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 1: your father, but why do you think you were so

1014
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 1: I don't want to over yeah, dramatize it, but vigilant

1015
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: back when before you probably even really thought this stuff

1016
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 1: through which you're talking about now, Like going back to

1017
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: when you were a journalists at Washington. Why do you

1018
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: think you were so vigilant at such a young age.

1019
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 2: Because when I was twelve years old, I was in

1020
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 2: Assessina two ten, single engine my dad was piloting, succeeded

1021
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 2: with my two sisters. Dad was flying the three of

1022
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: us between Maury and the Gold Coast and we had

1023
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 2: engine failure at nine thousand feet And what I saw

1024
00:53:56,040 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 2: happen in those moments convinced me that having high adaptability

1025
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 2: would always give me options. So we lost power.

1026
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:09,800
Speaker 1: What in other words, you're gliding.

1027
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 2: We glided for nine thousand feet. And it wasn't IQ

1028
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 2: or EQ that helped Dad land that plane in one piece.

1029
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 2: It was his AQ. It was his adaptability quotionent, so

1030
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 2: the ability to apply new thinking to a new problem.

1031
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 2: And he was so calm and composed in those in

1032
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 2: those moments that when by the time we got on

1033
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 2: the ground, I didn't think about it then, but many

1034
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 2: years later I started to think, when did I first

1035
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 2: see the power of adaptability, the power of an adaptive

1036
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 2: mindset in action? And that was it. I would have

1037
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 2: been twelve years old, and it was an incredible lesson

1038
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 2: in what if you commit to having a highly adaptable mindset,

1039
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 2: you will always have options. And that's what that's what

1040
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,720
Speaker 2: I wanted for myself, and so I really was highly

1041
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 2: engaged in what those signals have changed looked like for

1042
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 2: me from quite a young age, because you know, Dad

1043
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 2: would throw a map over the dining room table before

1044
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 2: school holidays and say where do you want to?

1045
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:06,320
Speaker 1: Go? Right?

1046
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 2: So like your dad in the Cessna, Dad rang and

1047
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 2: he ran a trucking haulage business, right, so he had

1048
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 2: a light plan for work, as most people did around

1049
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 2: Western Queensland in the eighties, and when he threw a

1050
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: map over the table, you know, that wasn't just about

1051
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,279
Speaker 2: planning holidays. In hindsight, for me, that was about, like,

1052
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 2: what a remarkable invitation to imagine your own future, to

1053
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: have an active to be an active player in the

1054
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 2: way life was going to play out for you. So

1055
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 2: I always engage. I was always engaged in change and

1056
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 2: always understood the role of imagination and the kind of

1057
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,439
Speaker 2: life that I wanted to lead. And I just wasn't

1058
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 2: prepared to kind of roll along with the standard narrative.

1059
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 2: And I had big dreams and I was encouraged from

1060
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,399
Speaker 2: a very young age to really go after them.

1061
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 1: Like you didn't. I mean, as opposed to being post

1062
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 1: traumatic stress syndrome, whatever the words. You actually had an

1063
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: embedded advantage as a result of what you experienced and

1064
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: what you saw your dad do. And obviously, luckily it

1065
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:17,320
Speaker 1: was a good outcome allow you to to remain embedded

1066
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: in your mind. And well, what's interesting is that you've

1067
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: done something about it too, Like you've actually put it

1068
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: into action. You've turned that asset into action, that embedded

1069
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 1: experience into action in your own life. I think many

1070
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 1: people also, Andrey, they tend to I don't know what

1071
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 1: it is people sort of forget in terms of their

1072
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,720
Speaker 1: career that a career is a really important part of life,

1073
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 1: Like it's I don't mean you have to have a career,

1074
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 1: but whatever you're doing, it's an important part of life,

1075
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: whatever you're doing. And we tend to think we focus

1076
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: on what we're going to do on the weekend, like

1077
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 1: where we're going to go up for dinner, which is

1078
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: also important, who we're going to see, but we forget

1079
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: about this other stuff that underpins all that. And you're right,

1080
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:58,320
Speaker 1: we don't see the signals.

1081
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 2: Well. Learning, I mean learning and an agency is part

1082
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 2: of the DNA of being highly adaptable. I mean I'm

1083
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 2: obsessed with learning. I always have been, because learning is

1084
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 2: not just about gaining knowledge. Every time we learn something new,

1085
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 2: we uncover something about ourselves. So it's a positive feedback

1086
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 2: loop that is literally infinite. And you know, I think

1087
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 2: learning is a portal. And if we're not learning, we're

1088
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 2: not adapting.

1089
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: Have We've got so many resources today to learn, podcasts

1090
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 1: everywhere and there's your book Adapt And that's a good

1091
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: way to end today through Look, thanks so much. Actually

1092
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: that was fascinating mastering change of four steps. So I

1093
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 1: quite like the having agency over your future that concept.

1094
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 1: I think that's a really important concept. Most people don't

1095
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: think about that that I know of, and we're too

1096
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: interested in what we're doing today and what we did

1097
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 1: last week and what didn't go right for us last week,

1098
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: and you know how awful someone was towards me as

1099
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: opposed to or hang on, that's a signal that I

1100
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 1: should do something for my future.

1101
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 2: Exactly, have some agency, build personal agency in whatever way

1102
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 2: works for you. But I think that is that's a

1103
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 2: straight line towards fulfillment.

1104
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 1: Andrew Clark, thanks so much, Thanks much,