WEBVTT - The man who exposed corruption in offshore detention 0:00:01.520 --> 0:00:09.039 I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. At 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:11.959 its height, in twenty fourteen, there were over one thousand 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:14.760 people being held on NARU as part of Australia's off 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.040 short detention system, but in the decades since that figure 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:20.919 has shrunk to less than one hundred. Yet the Department 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.240 of Home Affairs continues to pay outsized and exorbitant fees 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:27.120 on contracts no longer fit for purpose, all in the 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:29.840 name of keeping Manus Island and NHRU off the front 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.680 page and out of the minds of most Australians. Now, 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:37.120 one of the men responsible for administering these deals, worth billions, 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.320 has spoken out about the alleged corruption at the heart 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:43.479 of our system and the bipartisan silence that allows it 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:48.360 to continue. Today, Independent journalist Nick Fike on the whistleblower 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:54.600 and the waste in the Department of Home Affairs. It's Monday, 0:00:54.720 --> 0:01:03.160 December one, Nick, Hello, welcome back seven AM. 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:04.200 Great to have you on the show. 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:05.240 Thanks Ruby. 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.759 So we're speaking today because you have been in touch 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:11.800 with Derek Elias and he's someone that held a senior 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:15.080 role at the Department of Home Affairs, but he hasn't 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:19.160 stepped foot in that building for several years now, So 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:21.560 tell me about why he wanted to speak with you. 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.480 Yes, So I wrote some pieces about the Department of 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:30.920 Home Affairs as overseas contracts, for example the ones involving Paladin, 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:33.760 and I followed Home Affairs for a long time. He 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.760 read a piece that I wrote in Krike last year 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:42.120 and had contacted me. He is a former Home Affairs executive. 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:49.920 From December twenty nineteen, I became the Assistant Secretary acting 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:56.160 for visual processing contracts in Operations Sovereign Borders. 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:02.280 In fact, he was the Assistant Secretary for offshore processing contracts. 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.200 He'd walked out on his role in Operation Sovereign Borders 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:10.640 following what he described as a significant probity breach involving 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:15.679 quite lucrative home affairs contracts in Naru. And he had 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:18.960 had a terrible experience with Home Affairs and it was 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.960 one that he was still living through. So I was 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.920 all ears and we've been talking for a few months 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:25.800 now on and off. 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.200 Okay, So he has this deep insider knowledge of what's 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.720 going on with these offshore contracts, is actually in charge 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:37.359 of administering them. So tell me more about this significant 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.600 probity breach that he described, and the scale of what 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:42.720 he was starting to see in the. 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.799 Department, well, he quickly learned that it was standard department 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:52.720 procedure to avoid tender processes by extending existing contracts. 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:58.160 Their remit was shrinking with a number of people, but 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.160 they were still charging lots of them money, and we 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.959 had very little to negotiack with given that we had 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:06.080 no other options. 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:10.240 By this point, the contracts that he was administering were 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.440 for a vastly different situation even from when the contracts 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:19.079 had been started, So essentially, by twenty twenty, the numbers 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:20.720 of asylum seekers. 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:22.280 On Naru and Manus Island. 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.560 Were only a fraction of what they'd been before, So 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:30.160 the service requirements had changed radically, But contractors in Manus 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.480 and Naru were refusing to alter the basic terms of 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.680 the existing contracts, and they knew that they had home 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:37.920 affairs over at Barrel. 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:42.400 We were paying too much money for various things that 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.400 could have been shut down years ago. We were paying 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.040 for things that no longer existed. 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:51.280 And Elias is asking his colleagues why are we paying this, 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:55.080 what's this for? And essentially he's being told, don't ask 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:58.440 the whole idea was basically to make sure that the 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:01.720 public didn't really know the amount of money that was 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.520 going into these contracts. Now, just to give you one example, 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:09.640 offshore processing on NARU would reportedly cost Australia four hundred 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:13.440 and eighty five million dollars in twenty twenty three. And 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:16.640 this was even though there were only twenty two refugees 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.920 and asylum seekers left at the regional processing center, So 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:25.440 you're talking about twenty million dollars per person. These are 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:30.200 the contracts that Elias is looking at, and for very 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:31.840 good reason, raising. 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:32.679 Alarm bells about. 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:36.760 He's saying, why are we paying for entire medical centers? 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:40.520 Why are we paying for pr staff when there's twenty 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:44.000 two refugees and asylum seekers left in this processing center? 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:46.080 And it's because of the contracts. 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.400 Sure, I just wonder, I mean, this sounds off the 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.040 idea that these contracts would go out and things are 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.479 being paid for that are not necessary. But why do 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:02.120 you think the federal government was in this way? Why 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:04.599 do you think they had no leverage? Surely they could 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:08.279 still have their policy on asylum seekers and then also 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:09.920 renegotiate contracts. 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:14.000 Home Affairs were being told by the Australian Government that 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.960 Nuru and Manus Island had to keep operating and the 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:22.560 asylum seekers couldn't come back to the mainland. So now, essentially, 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.440 if you're going through a new procurement process for a 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:31.000 large contract in Australian government, procurement can take several years. 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.120 You have to go to market, do the market sounding, 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:38.080 meet with the tenders, go through all of the documents, 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:42.839 et cetera, et cetera. Okay, so that's a proper procurement. 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.920 And neither the Department nor the Government wanted to do 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.440 anything that would risk having a delay of a year 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:53.320 or two. So essentially they had these large contracts that 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:57.000 they had to extend to ensure that asylum seekers wouldn't 0:05:57.000 --> 0:06:00.160 come back to Australia and to ensure that Nuru and 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:05.640 Manus would keep being the host for our offshore detention centers. Now, 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:08.400 over the years, I think a lot of people have 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:12.200 come to question why we're still paying these massive amounts 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:16.039 of money. It was sheer political convenience, and I think 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:21.120 part of that package was paying contractors who were milking 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:24.000 these contracts because they knew that the government didn't have 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:27.400 the political will to change, and they knew. They have 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.839 known for a long time that a lot of this 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:33.960 money was ending up in the pockets of Nuru and 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:39.680 Manus Island politicians. It was being subcontracted out to friends 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.480 of friends of politicians. 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:45.640 And nuin government interfeed with just about every fucking thing 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:49.240 imaginable with what was happening on the island, just to 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:54.440 melt money out of the government and bluntly say to us, well, 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:58.479 you're not going to agree to continue these payments, then 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:06.560 what's your option. That's when one of my supervisors at 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:09.680 the time would say, well, we'll just give the contract 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:14.040 to the government of Nauru, which was so obscenely roll. 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.160 So, for example, you know, the nine newspapers started looking 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:23.680 at payments that included insurance premiums for fine arts and 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.520 for luxury cars and a yacht. And in the case 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:30.920 of Derek Elias, you have someone who's looking at all 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.400 of these arrangements and thinking, well, my job is actually 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.360 to make sure we're not wasting money, and that money 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:41.360 is being paid for services that we require, not for 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:46.400 golf umbrellas, not for insurance contracts of sports cars. And 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.840 the pressure was on was essentially on him, and eventually 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:51.600 he cracked. 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:54.200 Coming up. 0:07:54.560 --> 0:08:05.560 What happened when Derek Elias finally blew the whistle? So Nick, 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.920 Derek eli starts to notice these huge problems in the 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.520 contracts that he's overseeing between the Department of Home Affairs 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.920 and NAU to house these asylum seekers. So what happens 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.760 when he starts to raise his concerns within the department. 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:24.640 Well, he says that as he raised them, he found 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:28.160 that his colleagues and superiors were alarmed by his question. 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.880 So he found a culture that just didn't want to 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:31.920 upset the government. 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.280 You'd ask, what's going on? What are we doing about this? 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:36.560 Why are we paying this? 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.640 Because I was a newcomer, because I'd come from the 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.360 un system, because I'd come from in from outside the 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:46.000 public service, I just naturally walked around and asked these 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:50.280 questions because they were so fucking obvious, and people would 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:53.400 literally stare at you like you had three fucking heads. 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:54.000 You know. 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.559 It became evident that he was going to report his concerns, 0:08:57.960 --> 0:08:59.760 and it was made pretty clear to him that he 0:08:59.880 --> 0:09:03.240 was on his own. No one wanted to question their 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:08.920 political masters. The department wasn't interested in redrafting contracts or 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.599 trying to get back into these things. And at this 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:13.359 stage he was just exhausted. 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:17.200 I would be working until very late hours, turning around 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:20.000 hundreds of pages of documents I had no chance of 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:24.280 reading in order to keep the book the extensions on track. 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:25.840 Otherwise it was my deck. 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:29.760 Okay, So he's working incredibly hard doing a job that 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.400 he thinks, you know, isn't even the right thing to 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.680 be doing. So how does that affect him? 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.400 He was just in terrible physical and mental shape. 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:43.640 I had insomnia, social withdrawal, I was drinking heavily. I 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:45.360 took up smoking again. 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.640 And I think wisely, he went on stress leave, on 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:52.319 extended stress leave, and then he put in a calm 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.640 care statement for compensation for his mental health and the 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.600 fact that he couldn't go back to work, and in 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:01.120 some that's where. 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:02.120 The real trouble started. 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.720 What happened next, Well, his comcuare statement was disputed by 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.160 the department. Instead of accepting that his ill health might 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:13.200 be resulted from his job, they blamed it on alleged 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.320 pre existing conditions, including his drinking. And they also allad 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.000 that he was bitter at not getting a promotion. So 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:23.520 he's a guy who's in charge of administering billions of 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:28.240 dollars of government contracts. He's raising alarms about the working conditions. 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:32.200 His initial statement had mentioned the fact that there was 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:33.920 a toxic workplace culture. 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.040 It alleges that he'd experienced pulling. 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:42.480 These were by no means unusual responses about Home Affairs 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:47.080 as well. Home Affairs has for years been rated among 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.520 the very worst departments in the government to work for, 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:54.800 with the highest compensation claims. But instead of accepting his 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.240 claims and working with him, Home Affairs threw all its 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:02.360 efforts into discrediting him. His case ended up at the 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:07.640 aat the Administrative Affairs Tribunal and it's been dragging on 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:13.640 for literally years. He's repeatedly raised his concerns with the Omitzman, 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:19.520 the Attorney General's Department, Ministers with Comcare, the Australian Government solicitor. 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:24.640 He sent allegations to the NAK, the National Anti Corruption Commission. 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:28.360 He contacted the Human Rights Commission and the AFP who 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.720 These latter two organizations he says, have engaged with him, 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.320 but with the others, including the KNACK, he had no 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:39.800 headway at all. He was put in an impossible situation. 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:44.319 He spent four years he's been privately trying to raise 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:48.160 his concerns. It's only now that he's come out and 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:49.439 gone public. 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.560 And so speaking out for him is a last resort. 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.240 And after hearing his story, Nick, and the way that 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:02.760 various bodies have responded to what's happened, where are you 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.000 kind of left in terms of thinking about the level 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.200 of accountability and transparency here? 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.800 Well, I was under the impression of this is why 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:15.000 you had a National Anti Corruption Commission that could look 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:19.640 at these things independently. I would have thought this is 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.199 what the AFP are looking at. I think it's very 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.920 easy to say this stuff is in the past. 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:28.560 These are old contracts. 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:31.760 It's not like that anymore, and this is what the 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.360 Department is now saying. But the fact that they will 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:39.400 not engage just demonstrates that they're still not ready to 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:44.160 have this conversation. And I don't think it's likely to change. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:48.240 I mean, there's clearly a bipartisan consensus about operations sovereign 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.800 borders and the use of NARU and Manus Island. But 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.400 I have serious concerns about the actions of the KNACK 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.240 of it that they're inaction of the KNACK over this. 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:03.240 It would take an inquiry, a royal commission of some 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:07.080 sort to actually figure out how much money has been blown. 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.240 And I think what it indicates is that the political 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:15.920 forces behind this shameful arrangement, let's face it, because these 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:20.040 billions of dollars are being spent on punishing people who 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.440 came to Australia to seek a better life. These are 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:29.120 asylum seekers who were put on these dreadful Pacific Island facilities. 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.280 They've been stuck there indefinitely and now they're the locusts 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:40.160 of incredible amounts of government funded corruption allegedly. And the 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:45.959 one person who's best placed among anyone we've ever come across, 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.160 he's the most senior whistleblower in home affairs that we've 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:53.280 ever come across. He has receipts and he's been trying 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.880 responsibly to raise these things and he's getting no traction. 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.480 I mean, it tells me that the rots aarded at 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:02.280 the top and they're just not interested. 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.400 Wee, Nick, thank you so much for all of your 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:06.959 time today. 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:09.120 Thanks very much. Ruby. 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.560 Also in the news, childcare centers across the country will 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:26.920 be made to close early five days of the year 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.880 for mandatory staff safety training. Federal early Childhood Education Minister 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.560 Jess Walsh made the announcement as part of reforms to 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:39.600 TITAN regulation after numerous scandals plague the sector. National's leader 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.160 David Little Proud has back to the plan. The government 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.760 is also trialing the use of CCTV incentives and introducing 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:51.280 a national register of childcare workers, and Opposition leader Susan 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.640 Lee says the coalition is considering tougher values and language 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.720 tests for aspiring migrants as the party settles on its 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.600 migration policy. Susan Lee says the coalition's approach to immigration 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:03.720 will be announced by the end of the year, but 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.920 said tensions in Australia over immigration was the fault of governments. 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:08.880 Not migrants themselves. 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:11.720 I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:12.440 Thanks for listening.