Speaker 1: Doctor Sam, Hi, how are you?
Speaker 2: I'm good?
Speaker 1: How are you well? I'm good? Now?
Speaker 3: Have we spoken about how many people I talked to?
Speaker 3: And how busy my mind is with other stuff? I
Speaker 3: should have asked you before, but you were prepping for
Speaker 3: a gig. You did the gig. I think we did
Speaker 3: chat briefly about how you went.
Speaker 1: Didn't we?
Speaker 3: Yep?
Speaker 2: We did.
Speaker 1: Have you got any more on the horizon.
Speaker 2: Any more? Speaking?
Speaker 1: Yes, public speaking too.
Speaker 4: I've got a conference that I've organized next week with
Speaker 4: another business in town.
Speaker 2: The theme is the superwoman myth?
Speaker 3: Oh well, can you give us a little thirty second teaser?
Speaker 1: What do you think that? What is the myth? Where
Speaker 1: does the myth come from?
Speaker 4: So we so it's really centralized around this idea that
Speaker 4: a lot of women admire the woman that does it all.
Speaker 4: And so what we're trying to say with this, and
Speaker 4: we've got you know, speaker, We've got a keynote speaker,
Speaker 4: and a panel and I'm on the panel. But what
Speaker 4: we're trying to say is that we shouldn't admire the
Speaker 4: ones that do it all. It's not about doing it
Speaker 4: all right, There is no award for doing it all ourselves.
Speaker 4: It's more around living a life that is aligned with
Speaker 4: your values, that you can express different parts of yourself.
Speaker 4: And so I think that that's more of the goal, right,
Speaker 4: so I feel connected to yourself to go after your dreams, to.
Speaker 2: Feel like it's not one of the other.
Speaker 4: It's not raising kids all my dreams, it's all these
Speaker 4: things can exist rather than this pressure of like I
Speaker 4: just you know, comparison, and I just need to do
Speaker 4: it all for the sake of it.
Speaker 2: So that's really what we're anti.
Speaker 3: Yes, I would think though, Comma, I absolutely concur with
Speaker 3: what you're saying. But I think that might be context
Speaker 3: dependent or situation or circumstance dependent in some cases, because
Speaker 3: you know, some mums might be single mums just trying
Speaker 3: to raise and feed and educate three kids, and so
Speaker 3: the craziness and the demands of their existence mean for
Speaker 3: right now, they do have to do everything because they don't,
Speaker 3: do you know what I mean? And so I think, like,
Speaker 3: I like the idea, and I agree with you in
Speaker 3: general terms, but I think there could be someone listening
Speaker 3: to this going, yeah, that's great, doctor Sam, but come
Speaker 3: and have a come and sit in my life for
Speaker 3: three days and you might change. But you know, it's
Speaker 3: all It always depends, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: It does?
Speaker 4: And I think sometimes so those examples were obviously, like
Speaker 4: you said, on I guess on a level that we
Speaker 4: can actually witness, like you said, a single mom and
Speaker 4: having to do that all herself. It's around the internal
Speaker 4: pressure that we put on ourselves right to do everything
Speaker 4: to a certain standard. So that's the kind of stuff
Speaker 4: that we can also check in with around Okay, this
Speaker 4: is all on me and I'm having to do these things,
Speaker 4: but how much of this is the practicalities like you said,
Speaker 4: but also how much a FeAs is like pressure to
Speaker 4: do it to the certain standard and where people room
Speaker 4: around that.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm always aware that there's this like quite
Speaker 3: often I'm talking about and you're talking about. I would
Speaker 3: guess like these things that while they are very they're
Speaker 3: good ideas, they're good topics, they're relevant for a lot
Speaker 3: of people. I almost feel guilty talking about hardship and
Speaker 3: adversity and overcoming and because.
Speaker 1: I don't really have any hardship.
Speaker 3: You know, I go, you know, there are things in
Speaker 3: my life that are challenging, but that when sometimes I
Speaker 3: feel like am I the person to talk about? You know,
Speaker 3: overcoming adversity, or when my life has been really it's
Speaker 3: been pretty good.
Speaker 1: There's been some tough stuff.
Speaker 3: But then I guess, you know that's that's I guess
Speaker 3: I could say, who am I to train a team
Speaker 3: of elite netball because I'm not a woman and I've
Speaker 3: never played netball, but I've trained to lead netball, as
Speaker 3: you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So I guess you don't.
Speaker 3: Sorry, no, oh, sorry, I was just going to say,
Speaker 3: I guess you don't need It's like I don't need
Speaker 3: to be It's like I guess you don't need to
Speaker 3: be a female doctor to be a good gynecologist, or
Speaker 3: or that was probably a terror, but do you know
Speaker 3: what I mean? It's like I think having gone through
Speaker 3: the experience can help because you have experiential understanding and
Speaker 3: awareness and empty perhaps.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Do you ever get nervous like I get nervous talking
Speaker 3: about some things? Like I got a not abusive, kind
Speaker 3: of abusive message once from I don't know, it doesn't
Speaker 3: matter who, but someone telling me I shouldn't talk about
Speaker 3: kids because I don't have kids, Like I shouldn't talk
Speaker 3: about educating or raising kids or anything to do with
Speaker 3: parenthood or and I'm like, yeah, maybe, but also I
Speaker 3: was a kid. Also in my businesses we trained thousands
Speaker 3: of kids, like I literally worked with you know, lots
Speaker 3: of kids in a sporting sense and also in the
Speaker 3: gym and elite athletes.
Speaker 1: And yeah, but maybe we I don't know, maybe when
Speaker 1: you're a.
Speaker 3: Bloke you get judged harder with these things, not with
Speaker 3: most things, but with that, I feel like a lot
Speaker 3: of people don't want to hear from some old dude
Speaker 3: talking about marriage or whatever when he's never been married.
Speaker 1: Not that I would dare to give marital advice.
Speaker 4: Well, you know what's crazy though with that is that
Speaker 4: we tend to then shoot the messenger and it becomes
Speaker 4: this kind of like character assassination rather than looking at
Speaker 4: the message, because you could have no kids and still
Speaker 4: make a really good point, like in isolation with that.
Speaker 2: Right, So, I mean, I agree with.
Speaker 4: What you're saying, though it does exist in society, and
Speaker 4: I think a lot of people, for example, are worried
Speaker 4: about talking about trauma because they're.
Speaker 2: Like, in comparison to somebody else, it's not that bad.
Speaker 2: But then end up.
Speaker 4: Dismissing ourselves and we don't realize that there was somebody
Speaker 4: like us that also feels the same, and there is
Speaker 4: somebody at that level, right that could really benefit from
Speaker 4: my insides but also insides. But what you said there
Speaker 4: around the not being a say the female, you know,
Speaker 4: but yeah, able to benefit. I actually think, like when
Speaker 4: I look back at my say, my PhD journey, my
Speaker 4: three supervisors weren't parents at the time, I actually think
Speaker 4: that that they helped my parenting in ways that they
Speaker 4: did not know because, for example, other moms, when they
Speaker 4: were talking about my PhD journey, it was more around
Speaker 4: I felt like they were projecting their limiting beliefs on me,
Speaker 4: like they were like, you know, I'm just struggling to
Speaker 4: get through the day.
Speaker 2: You're putting too much pressure on yourself, and maybe you should.
Speaker 4: Be doing this or you know, for them, it was
Speaker 4: what they believed was possible as a mother. And yet
Speaker 4: what I experienced was when I was studying and I
Speaker 4: was working, and I was saying my home environment, I
Speaker 4: felt my nervous system was so much more regulated and
Speaker 4: I had way more quality time with my kids than
Speaker 4: when I was, for example, traveling and I was just
Speaker 4: catching up with people and the kids, and I had
Speaker 4: no additional things on my plate, and yet I felt
Speaker 4: physically exhausted, like I couldn't imagine adding anything else on. Right,
Speaker 4: So people's perceptions of you've had all these things on
Speaker 4: your plate I actually found easier than just existing in
Speaker 4: the way that they lived life. But yeah, the way
Speaker 4: that my PhD supervisors, as an example, was they were
Speaker 4: tending to my curiosity. They were boarding me and mentoring
Speaker 4: me through for example, that they didn't see me as
Speaker 4: the mum, right, they saw me as Sam and Sam
Speaker 4: who had this idea, and they were trying to foster that.
Speaker 4: So then when I saw my child, I'm not seeing
Speaker 4: them as my child. I'm seeing them as their person,
Speaker 4: and I'm fostering their curiosity. So it's almost like people
Speaker 4: help you with certain things in ways that you don't anticipate.
Speaker 4: And I think, if anything, people who don't have children
Speaker 4: are not coming at it from this exhaustion, this depletion,
Speaker 4: the limiting kind.
Speaker 2: Of beliefs their own experience.
Speaker 4: Is if anything, the actually have a lot to add
Speaker 4: to the conversation inside.
Speaker 2: And then yeah, of course there were to.
Speaker 4: Become parents, their views would shift and they would have
Speaker 4: learned things and been like I thought, this but now
Speaker 4: I know this, but this is all part of the
Speaker 4: journey of being human, right, Like we go through experiences
Speaker 4: and then we shift o wws, like you want to
Speaker 4: be that person?
Speaker 3: Yes, Wow, you're being profoundly smart this morning.
Speaker 1: No, I love that. I love that. I I think
Speaker 1: I sometimes worry.
Speaker 3: About the way that I write or the way that
Speaker 3: I talk because I'm so blokey. Also, I don't know
Speaker 3: that I'm that blokey but direct, and then I go, oh,
Speaker 3: my two directs. Should I fluff it up a bit?
Speaker 3: Should I soften the language? Should I?
Speaker 1: And whenever?
Speaker 3: I actually put up thing years ago and said if
Speaker 3: I think it was like I did a poll and
Speaker 3: I said to my audience, I think this was back
Speaker 3: in Facebook days, and I said, you know, do I
Speaker 3: swear too much? Would you rather follow me with the
Speaker 3: swearing or without the swearing? And I said, this is honest,
Speaker 3: like if I get if the majority want me to
Speaker 3: not swear, I will put up all my posts from
Speaker 3: now on without swearing. And it was overwhelming, like you're
Speaker 3: going to predict. It was overwhelming, like, for God's sake,
Speaker 3: don't stop swearing. Right, It was like two percent of
Speaker 3: people wanted me in other words, they're just going, we'll
Speaker 3: be you. And it's but at the same time, I
Speaker 3: teach self awareness and I teach social awareness and you know,
Speaker 3: kind of understanding context, and so well, maybe me just
Speaker 3: talk and how I because I talk like as well,
Speaker 3: you don't know because we've never met away from the party,
Speaker 3: but you know, the way that I talk in life
Speaker 3: is exactly how I talk on a podcast, Like there
Speaker 3: is absolutely no difference. But with a lot of people
Speaker 3: they have almost like an on air radio voice.
Speaker 1: Or podcast voice or tele advice and it's a bit
Speaker 1: of a persona.
Speaker 3: And yeah, but what is interesting about my followers which
Speaker 3: surprised me on in my Instagram you can go back
Speaker 3: and you look at you can every post as you
Speaker 3: know how many people have looked at it, and likes
Speaker 3: and all of those things. But the most interesting bit
Speaker 3: for me is when you go look at the audience
Speaker 3: male female.
Speaker 1: My average.
Speaker 3: I guess follower and people who view my stuff is
Speaker 3: constantly between seventy and seventy five percent female. Interesting, like
Speaker 3: always around three quarters and always around one quarter male.
Speaker 3: And if you look at the way that I write
Speaker 3: or some of the I don't know the nature of
Speaker 3: the post or this or that.
Speaker 1: But also interesting is.
Speaker 3: Like the last time I did a big just a
Speaker 3: me event what Melissa calls who runs my life, Craig
Speaker 3: up alive a Craig arp alive e in Melbourne. We're
Speaker 3: at Deacon University and we had six hundred and seventy
Speaker 3: five people, and at least six.
Speaker 1: Hundred were women.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wore yeah, And so there were some dudes
Speaker 3: who chose to be there, but there were a bunch
Speaker 3: of dudes who were just dragged along by their wives
Speaker 3: or girlfriends.
Speaker 1: And I'm not suggesting on any level anyone.
Speaker 3: That this has got to do with how attractive I
Speaker 3: am or aunt, which is clearly evident, but yeah, it
Speaker 3: just fascinates me that I think I could be wrong,
Speaker 3: but my experience is that more women seem to be
Speaker 3: and maybe it's just in the social media space, I'm
Speaker 3: not sure, but more women seem to be more enthusiastic
Speaker 3: about pursuing personal growth. And I'm not talking about the
Speaker 3: industry or the product or the service, but actually trying
Speaker 3: to grow and learn and evolve and use you know
Speaker 3: whatever the resources and Instagram post or a book or
Speaker 3: a workshop or an audio thing. Yeah, I think and
Speaker 3: guys definitely are, but I think there's a much greater
Speaker 3: percentage of women who who kind of habit the space
Speaker 3: of self help and personal growth.
Speaker 4: And I think sometimes males come at it from a
Speaker 4: different way, which I think is actually helpful in a
Speaker 4: lot of ways too. Right, So I know that you're
Speaker 4: saying that that can be seen as like a floor
Speaker 4: when you're you know, not a female yourself or not parent,
Speaker 4: but I can also see the benefit to that as well,
Speaker 4: because you're able to come at it from a different lens.
Speaker 4: Back to the swearing thing, it's interesting, I feel like,
Speaker 4: you know, in the age of social media and also
Speaker 4: trying to kind of go okay, I want to see
Speaker 4: what lands or I don't want to offend people. We
Speaker 4: try and then force ourselves to be neutral. But if anything,
Speaker 4: it's almost like the more that we can be ourselves,
Speaker 4: you're going to get those like true fans, and then
Speaker 4: you need those people that just hate it. And then
Speaker 4: that's okay because you're like, I'm big me, and there's
Speaker 4: going to be this percentage that absolutely loves what you're
Speaker 4: doing and your message and gets you.
Speaker 2: And then there's the people that hate it. But if you.
Speaker 4: Stand for something that's just an evitable really yeah, one
Speaker 4: hundred percent.
Speaker 3: And I mean I've like, as I've said to people
Speaker 3: many times, I don't I don't swear for effect. I
Speaker 3: just it's how I it's how I talk, and maybe
Speaker 3: I should modify it. But then I think if I
Speaker 3: modify for what I think is a general audience, it's
Speaker 3: not like I'm doing a corporate gig where it's all
Speaker 3: fancy and smancy and you.
Speaker 1: Know there, then there is more.
Speaker 3: Of a specific protocol that you should you probably shouldn't
Speaker 3: get up there and say fuck right. And I get that,
Speaker 3: and it's context a pennant. And if I'm talking at
Speaker 3: a school to teachers or kids, of course it's you know.
Speaker 3: But when so on the podcast, I try not to
Speaker 3: worry about that.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't like there's nothing strategic about my swearing or
Speaker 3: not swearing.
Speaker 1: But it is interesting.
Speaker 3: I did a post the other day essentially about and
Speaker 3: this could be true for many things, but like the
Speaker 3: psychology of being offended, and I've spoken about this maybe
Speaker 3: too many times, but I just find it interesting that
Speaker 3: you know, you'll say something and someone absolutely believes that
Speaker 3: what you said is categorically globally offensive, without even realizing
Speaker 3: that the three or four people around them are not
Speaker 3: offended by the exact same thing.
Speaker 4: And it's always going to be based on on their
Speaker 4: worldview and their lens and their core beliefs. And this
Speaker 4: is what's really hard. No matter how nice you say
Speaker 4: something or how you kind of tip you to around things,
Speaker 4: they're going to take it based on them, not you,
Speaker 4: Like it's a projection.
Speaker 2: I see this lot in the parenting kind of space too.
Speaker 4: There was this lady and she was quite famous, and
Speaker 4: she posted a reel about how much of a present
Speaker 4: mum she feels because she has the babysitters and has
Speaker 4: the cleaner and has the like the whole team basically right,
Speaker 4: So wow, stressed because when I get to with my kids,
Speaker 4: I'm there and I'm present. And it triggered so many
Speaker 4: people watching these like I'm watching the comments and it
Speaker 4: was like, well, it would be nice to have that
Speaker 4: much money, and they're all kind of ripping her apart.
Speaker 4: But no one again, they're shooting the messenger. No one
Speaker 4: took the message, which is when we have so much
Speaker 4: on our plate and we're trying and it's all on
Speaker 4: us it is stressful, and the less we have, the
Speaker 4: less stress we have, the easier it is to be present.
Speaker 4: And if we just took that little message, it could
Speaker 4: honestly be the littlest shifts. Like you gave that example
Speaker 4: of the single mom, it could be like, Oh, as
Speaker 4: a single mom, when my I don't know sister comes
Speaker 4: to visit to see the kids, Instead of sitting with
Speaker 4: her and feeling like I have to be there because
Speaker 4: I'm the mom, I'll be like, you're an adult, do
Speaker 4: you mind actually watching the kids for an hour because
Speaker 4: I'm going to go for a walk.
Speaker 2: For example.
Speaker 4: Like, it could be the tiniest shifts, but it starts
Speaker 4: with that kind of cool message of like, Okay, I
Speaker 4: hear what she's trying to say. Now I can't do
Speaker 4: it in the way that she's doing it, But how
Speaker 4: can I take the message and adapt it for my life?
Speaker 4: And I think a lot of people struggle to do that.
Speaker 3: I think trying to understand, truly understand, not agree with,
Speaker 3: understand someone else's reality or perspective like that has to
Speaker 3: be driven by a desire to want to understand.
Speaker 2: Yes, a growth mindset, really, yeah.
Speaker 3: Steve, that's Stephen Covey quote, which he probably ripped off
Speaker 3: from someone else. You know, seek first to understand and
Speaker 3: then to be understood. And you know, because I talk
Speaker 3: to and deal with the mentor and all of that,
Speaker 3: so many people who are not like me, not better,
Speaker 3: not worse, just different. So my first session with them
Speaker 3: is really trying to understand like the window through which
Speaker 3: they see and experience the world.
Speaker 4: The empathy, right, and I actually feel like I thought
Speaker 4: I would struggle with this becoming a therapist, and yet
Speaker 4: I find it now and this is obviously years after.
Speaker 4: So we see to look at the core human needs
Speaker 4: and connect and even if someone in front of me
Speaker 4: has lived a completely different, like I'm talking pole opposite life,
Speaker 4: I can see that every human has these core needs
Speaker 4: and we all have and it's so much easier, I
Speaker 4: think when we relate in that way. Like when I
Speaker 4: used to work, say with kids rite in therapy, and
Speaker 4: I'm looking at them parent, I used to look at
Speaker 4: them as an adult, and when I shifted that off,
Speaker 4: like Okay, I'm going to start from the beginning, what
Speaker 4: was their experiences like as a child, it just changes it, right,
Speaker 4: because you're like, Okay, I can see this story now
Speaker 4: like I get it. I get one feeling the wather
Speaker 4: they do or behaving the way that they are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3: It's like I had a light bulb moment years ago, now,
Speaker 3: probably twenty years ago, when my mum and dad were
Speaker 3: in their sixties, not in their mid eighties, and I
Speaker 3: can't even remember what precipitated it.
Speaker 1: It was with my dad.
Speaker 3: My dad and I have buttered heads a bit over
Speaker 3: the years, not terribly, but.
Speaker 1: And I remember, I can't even remember what transpired.
Speaker 3: But then it made me think of my dad's childhood
Speaker 3: and my dad, you know, born in the first year
Speaker 3: of the Second World War and growing up first six
Speaker 3: years in a World war, and all the poverty that
Speaker 3: they were in the middle of and six boys, so
Speaker 3: two parents and six boys, so eight miles to feed, and.
Speaker 1: You know, just there was so much to it.
Speaker 3: And then my mom's mom died giving birth, so my
Speaker 3: mum was raised by.
Speaker 1: Her grandmother and nuns.
Speaker 3: And like there when I went kind of and really
Speaker 3: did a deep dive into what their life experience was
Speaker 3: compared to my life experience when I was a kid,
Speaker 3: which was, you know, it wasn't spectacular, but compared.
Speaker 1: To mom and dad, it was Disneyland. It was like
Speaker 1: a movie.
Speaker 3: And then you realize that this sixty five year old
Speaker 3: person in front of you is just that child with
Speaker 3: more years, more miles on the clock. You know, because
Speaker 3: we essentially become an older version of what we were
Speaker 3: when we were a kid, doesn't mean we don't change or.
Speaker 1: Improve or get worse or but yeah.
Speaker 3: That trying to understand why my dad was the way
Speaker 3: he was, or my mum, or when I didn't have
Speaker 3: to deal with any real hardship or adversary or you know,
Speaker 3: even living in a time where you don't know if
Speaker 3: you're going to be attacked or bombed or invaded or
Speaker 3: you know, all of those things. And that willingness to
Speaker 3: be able to put aside what you think or feel
Speaker 3: or you're whatever for a moment and try to really
Speaker 3: dive into the experience of somebody else. That can be
Speaker 3: a real emotional and social game changer.
Speaker 4: Definitely, And I think this is where a lot of
Speaker 4: people struggle with it in terms of special especially looking
Speaker 4: at childhood black Kinjim and breaking cycles and things like that.
Speaker 4: To know that two things can be true in going
Speaker 4: my parents, like, Okay, this is like you said.
Speaker 2: Understanding their story. This is why they are like they are.
Speaker 4: They're they're living in this They lived in this world
Speaker 4: where it was like survival mode and their parents were
Speaker 4: so focused on getting their physical needs met that emotional
Speaker 4: needs were not even a consideration. And then so you
Speaker 4: acknowledge that right and be like, Okay, I can see
Speaker 4: why they're like that.
Speaker 2: But then the other b which is like, oh, and
Speaker 2: these are this is kind.
Speaker 4: Of what I need more now as an adult because
Speaker 4: when I was a child, I didn't have someone there
Speaker 4: reflecting my feelings back and holding space for them and
Speaker 4: being able to actually talk to them about things that
Speaker 4: were really difficult. And I think when we're able to
Speaker 4: do both, it's again it's not blaming the parent, but
Speaker 4: it's also not going, oh that didn't affect me. You know,
Speaker 4: there's was worse and I'm completely fine. It's almost going. Actually,
Speaker 4: we all have childhood conditioning and limiting beliefs and things
Speaker 4: that we need to learn and unlearn, and I think
Speaker 4: when we look at it in that way, it's just
Speaker 4: so much more expansive for us because we know it's
Speaker 4: kind of what I need more of, and this is
Speaker 4: probably what they still need more off too in their lives,
Speaker 4: and yeah, holding space for I think for both.
Speaker 3: I was talking to somebody recently in the last month,
Speaker 3: and this lady that I know, not very well, but
Speaker 3: not a nice lady.
Speaker 1: Anyway.
Speaker 3: I was talking to her at the cafe, which is
Speaker 3: my six thirty to eight am office, and apparently I'm
Speaker 3: open for business, apparently had that. No.
Speaker 1: I just like, I know a fair few people.
Speaker 3: So I get a lot of people just say hi
Speaker 3: and all of that, which is lovely and I don't
Speaker 3: mind it. And some people go, can I ask you something?
Speaker 3: And I go, yeah, you know, and then that might
Speaker 3: become two minutes or twenty minutes or whatever. But anyway,
Speaker 3: so I was talking to this lady and it was
Speaker 3: really evident that she was quite angry at her mum
Speaker 3: and grumpy at her mum. And I'm not saying she
Speaker 3: shouldn't be, but I don't know what she is. I
Speaker 3: gets she's in her early fifties and her mum is
Speaker 3: in a mid to late seventies, and I was just thinking, oh,
Speaker 3: she's just a child, like she still wants her mom's approval. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and she still wants her mom to say that thing
Speaker 3: that you did or didn't do or whatever forty years ago,
Speaker 3: that's okay or that, And I thought, oh, yeah, God,
Speaker 3: we don't really grow up necessarily, we just get older
Speaker 3: and the bullshit that and I say, I've done this too,
Speaker 3: I'm sure. So I'm not throwing an individual under the bus,
Speaker 3: but the bullshit that we hold on to, the stuff
Speaker 3: that we want to stay mad about, you know, the
Speaker 3: thing that happened thirty years ago that we can't undo.
Speaker 3: It can't be changed, we can't reverse history. And I'm
Speaker 3: not saying it wasn't terrible or tragic. We fully acknowledge
Speaker 3: the pain of it and the wrongness of it, all
Speaker 3: of that. But then you go, but today's Wednesday, and
Speaker 3: it's twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1: Today, you know, like that isn't happening.
Speaker 3: And just I don't know this thing that wants these
Speaker 3: emotional anchors that we carry around.
Speaker 2: It's almost like.
Speaker 4: It's on process though, because if you think about that example, right,
Speaker 4: the anger is actually festering away within.
Speaker 2: Her, her parents not feeling that.
Speaker 4: Well, they may get those like resentment kind of statements
Speaker 4: or maybe they are right, but it's actually mostly hurting her.
Speaker 2: And I think there's two parts to this.
Speaker 4: You could obviously get a parent that is in their
Speaker 4: older age and they're able to repair and acknowledge you
Speaker 4: know what, Like I can see that that hurt you,
Speaker 4: this is where I was at, but you might not.
Speaker 4: And so it's I guess for us right as the adult,
Speaker 4: to go, I need to grieve the parent that I
Speaker 4: didn't have or I wish I had when I was
Speaker 4: growing up in the experiences and allowing yourself to feel
Speaker 4: that grief, but then going, I am now responsible for
Speaker 4: my life and I need to give myself these corrective experiences.
Speaker 4: If I felt like I was dismissed and shut down
Speaker 4: as a kid, I can still see myself treating myself
Speaker 4: like that. Now I need to be able to rewire
Speaker 4: this inner self talk that kid continues to do that
Speaker 4: because that's the damage that's been done. Every day that
Speaker 4: we're doing right, we can work on and so yeah,
Speaker 4: I think there's definitely an element here of actually probably
Speaker 4: both grieving what they've missed out and really acknowledging that pain,
Speaker 4: but then going I'm an adult, like what do I need.
Speaker 4: I'm responsible for my life, and I think that that's
Speaker 4: very empowering.
Speaker 2: And I know that when we're.
Speaker 4: Able to do that, even especially as a parent, where
Speaker 4: they're not parenting from our unhealed wounds, we're actually parenting
Speaker 4: from this place if I'm healing myself alongside them. So
Speaker 4: an example of that, right is like, I'm never going
Speaker 4: to be like my parent, And then you go the
Speaker 4: other way and you don't even give them space to
Speaker 4: process their emotions because you're constantly trying to like be
Speaker 4: the one to hear them all out right. So it's
Speaker 4: I think it's really important that we, even as adults,
Speaker 4: look at those wounds.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then you don't even understand things like when
Speaker 3: you know, I was six, Like when I was six,
Speaker 3: my mum was thirty. And by the way, my childhood
Speaker 3: was good. So the example I'm about to give is fiction,
Speaker 3: but you know I could at thirty, my mum could
Speaker 3: have been this emotionally disregulated, highly anxious, fearful, overthinking, self
Speaker 3: critical mum that that perhaps didn't always parent optimally, right yep,
Speaker 3: which wasn't the case. I think my mum was pretty great.
Speaker 3: But as now as the adult, you don't even consider
Speaker 3: what your mum was going through or your dad at
Speaker 3: twenty six, or like my parents were, which is almost
Speaker 3: old back then. But they were parents at twenty four,
Speaker 3: which now is very young. But fuck, when I was
Speaker 3: twenty four, I was a moron.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I didn't know anything like trying to steal some person
Speaker 3: other person's life. How do I be a great parent
Speaker 3: mentor enrollment model?
Speaker 1: And you just don't know?
Speaker 4: And you know, a big part of that, though, is
Speaker 4: parents thinking that they need to hide it from their
Speaker 4: children and try and be perfect. And that's a whole
Speaker 4: other thing, right, because then I have adults in therapy going,
Speaker 4: But my parents were perfect, Like they handled everything when
Speaker 4: we were kids, and why am I struggling now? I
Speaker 4: feeling all these things when they were okay? And so
Speaker 4: what happens is when we see a parent as perfect,
Speaker 4: we then internalize it. So the child's like, well, if
Speaker 4: you're perfect and you're handling it, it must because I
Speaker 4: was behaving this way, it must be my fault.
Speaker 2: And so then they become really hyper vigilant.
Speaker 4: Around their own behavior, right, Like it's always me versus
Speaker 4: if a parent's like, yeah, I'm feeling a bit stressed
Speaker 4: because of this on my plate. It's not you. It's
Speaker 4: I'm kind of dealing with some stuff. It's actually a
Speaker 4: whole lot better for a child to then grow up going, yeah,
Speaker 4: my parent had all this on their plate and they
Speaker 4: were struggling because then they don't see it as a
Speaker 4: reflection of them. Yeah, yeah, they see to add human
Speaker 4: going through stuff and then they're like, I'm going to
Speaker 4: be a human going through stuff too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I get it, and I agree in terms of
Speaker 3: what you see now, and we're generalizing, and this is
Speaker 3: just one person's.
Speaker 1: Experience that is yours.
Speaker 3: What are some of the mistakes seems harsh, but let's
Speaker 3: just use that unless there's a better What are some
Speaker 3: of the mistakes that you see some well meaning, loving
Speaker 3: parents make that they don't even know they're making a mistake,
Speaker 3: like what you just said. One which is not just
Speaker 3: telling the kids or not necessarily being authentic about that
Speaker 3: they're stressed or they're worried or you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so things that they have a look, I
Speaker 4: would say, right, which is that of going actually because
Speaker 4: they're trying to not put it on their child, they're
Speaker 4: overlooking the fact that they're now appearing perfect. So if anything,
Speaker 4: the child's going to actually put it more on themselves.
Speaker 4: So that's probably one thing. I think the other is
Speaker 4: trying to heal through their child. So coming at it
Speaker 4: with I want to give my child the childhood I
Speaker 4: didn't have, is really you coming from a wound versus
Speaker 4: I want to give my child what they need, and
Speaker 4: I need to give myself what I need now as
Speaker 4: an adult.
Speaker 2: So I think that's the thing which is huge, right.
Speaker 4: I don't want my child to feel what I felt,
Speaker 4: again is coming from a wound, because the reality is
Speaker 4: children need to feel more than happy and content. They
Speaker 4: need to feel like disappointed and sad and grief and
Speaker 4: all of the things. And being able to hold space
Speaker 4: for that and not seeing that as a reflection of
Speaker 4: us and our felations and.
Speaker 2: This whole I will end this cycle like it will
Speaker 2: end with me.
Speaker 4: Then really dehumanizes us because it's like, well, all these
Speaker 4: other generations struggled, but I'm going to be this one
Speaker 4: that's going to completely make it perfect.
Speaker 1: And what going to break this cycle?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to break the cycle.
Speaker 4: And so what happens is it becomes our little mission
Speaker 4: and there are like projects and that's not fair because
Speaker 4: they're a human and we're a human, and no one
Speaker 4: is going to break this cycle. What we can do
Speaker 4: is interrupt cycles and shift cycles and understand cycles, but
Speaker 4: you're not going to end it completely. If anything, that's
Speaker 4: a whole cycle in itself. And I think when we
Speaker 4: realize that, we then give our child that freedom as well,
Speaker 4: where like, Okay, you're not my project. What I'm going
Speaker 4: to do, though, is I'm going to continue to work
Speaker 4: on this cycle. I'm going to heal myself and grow
Speaker 4: alongside you, and they're for.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to heal through you.
Speaker 4: And I think that that's huge because I think often
Speaker 4: we don't even see it. Every single interaction that you
Speaker 4: have with a child, whether you're a parent or a professional,
Speaker 4: is coming from.
Speaker 2: Your own inner child round.
Speaker 4: And if you're not working on that at the same time,
Speaker 4: then yeah, you're going to project it onto them.
Speaker 2: You're going to make them your.
Speaker 4: Little project and a way to feel good about, you know,
Speaker 4: what you didn't get and how you're giving it to them.
Speaker 4: But then they're not building self trust with themselves, they're
Speaker 4: not building connection with themselves.
Speaker 3: I feel like there's this parenting a parental or parenting juxtaposition,
Speaker 3: and that is parents want to protect their kids, love
Speaker 3: their kids, you know, intervene for their kids. At some
Speaker 3: time at times, and they want them to be raised
Speaker 3: in a loving, warm, safe, familiar, protective environment. And that
Speaker 3: sounds amazing by the way, I'm not saying that's a
Speaker 3: bad thing.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, they want.
Speaker 3: Their kids to be able to navigate the world and
Speaker 3: be adaptable and be resilient and deal with hard stuff
Speaker 3: because the world is hard and life is hard, and
Speaker 3: life does not care about your child's feelings or you know,
Speaker 3: whether or not they come first or last. What's the
Speaker 3: typewrote that we walk trying to ensure that our kids
Speaker 3: are loved and safe but also not dependent in a
Speaker 3: bad way.
Speaker 4: Isn't that really hard because and I think it's acknowledging
Speaker 4: the fear, like it is all fear driven because you're like,
Speaker 4: of course, I want to protect and love my child
Speaker 4: and keep them safe for things.
Speaker 2: And you know, really buffer any hardship.
Speaker 4: But then on the flip side, like you said, resilience
Speaker 4: is actually built when we go through hard things. And
Speaker 4: to be honest, I see a lot of people who
Speaker 4: struggle with addiction as adults and it comes from this
Speaker 4: place of avoidance of their feelings because they don't know
Speaker 4: how to cope with that. Like I don't know how
Speaker 4: to feel sad and sit with that. I don't know
Speaker 4: how to feel that grief. I just need to escape it.
Speaker 4: So this is really tricky, and I think when we
Speaker 4: realize that, we realize it's not an easy answer. There
Speaker 4: is so much fear driving this cycle. But I like
Speaker 4: to then flip it and going what's the opposite of fear.
Speaker 4: It's opportunity. So if I fear this for my child,
Speaker 4: I don't want to mess them up. I don't want
Speaker 4: them to go through what I went through. I don't
Speaker 4: want this. It's okay, what do you want? What do
Speaker 4: you want more of? And the more that we focus
Speaker 4: on this opportunity, I want them to have experiences where
Speaker 4: they feel seen and heard and loved. And I want
Speaker 4: them to have experiences where things are challenging but they
Speaker 4: can navigate it and I will be there to support them.
Speaker 2: When we're focused on opportunity.
Speaker 4: It's a whole different game, isn't that Then we see
Speaker 4: all we use this opportunity.
Speaker 2: So then you don't go, oh, I feel so.
Speaker 4: Bad, I'm going to mess up my child because I'm
Speaker 4: going on this holiday and I leaving them behind, and
Speaker 4: they're going to think that I'm just enjoying life without them.
Speaker 2: You'll see it as Wow, this is such a great
Speaker 2: opportunity for.
Speaker 4: Them to have these adventures with another safe family member,
Speaker 4: And it's an opportunity for me to have these adventures,
Speaker 4: and they're not being an opportunity for us to share
Speaker 4: these adventures.
Speaker 2: Like it's a whole different way of approaching life, isn't that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I like it?
Speaker 3: What about and I know these are just kind of
Speaker 3: I think these are some of the questions.
Speaker 1: I know you there's I ask you. I should say that.
Speaker 3: I know there are no definitive answers, but your thoughts
Speaker 3: on so kids and resilience. Do some kids, clearly at
Speaker 3: five or six, or seven or eight or twelve, are more.
Speaker 1: Resilient than others? Now? Is that about genetics?
Speaker 3: Is that about the environment that they are raised in
Speaker 3: and the parents and the style of parenting, Or is
Speaker 3: it about number three? Is it about the fact that
Speaker 3: those kids have just dealt with shit and had some
Speaker 3: experiences that kind of made them more adaptable, adaptable and
Speaker 3: more flexible and more capable under pressure. So one the parenting,
Speaker 3: the genetics to the parenting style and environment, or.
Speaker 1: Three just going through stuff?
Speaker 3: What do you think is the biggest factor in terms
Speaker 3: of the level of resilience of our kids.
Speaker 4: Well, that's really it's an interesting one because I think
Speaker 4: what we're trying to do now is trying to construct
Speaker 4: resilience and we're trying to monitor it, and this is
Speaker 4: what makes it worse. So as an example, I think
Speaker 4: of this like, what is the concept of resilience. It's
Speaker 4: the ability to get back up again? Right, And no
Speaker 4: matter how many times you fall down, no one's letting
Speaker 4: them fall down.
Speaker 1: Though.
Speaker 2: So I think about saying myself.
Speaker 4: Again with my studying journey, if I was studying in
Speaker 4: the way that I did behind closed doors at home,
Speaker 4: if I was doing it in a classroom, the teachers
Speaker 4: would say, I'm not resilient.
Speaker 2: They'd be like, she's giving up.
Speaker 4: I'm saying I can't do this, I'm stopping, I'm taking breaks,
Speaker 4: i can't focus. So their interpretation would be she's not resilient,
Speaker 4: she's not severing. But you see, when I had my
Speaker 4: own space to do this in the privacy of my
Speaker 4: own home, I stopped.
Speaker 2: I was like, I can't do it.
Speaker 4: I had middle tantrums, I went for a walk, I
Speaker 4: did all the things, but guess what I did when
Speaker 4: no one was around. I got up and I did it.
Speaker 4: And we're not giving kids a space to do that,
Speaker 4: for them to listen to their own internal compass around
Speaker 4: that of them being so internally motivated where they can
Speaker 4: get through it. And so yes, as a child therapist,
Speaker 4: I'd get parents like, my kid's not resilient. Okay, what
Speaker 4: are they doing? And I'm like, this is a path
Speaker 4: towards resilience. You've just you've missed this last step where
Speaker 4: you're not reminding them that bit where they got up again.
Speaker 2: And so it's almost like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sorry, I was going to say, and again you
Speaker 3: I don't think you or I know the answer to this,
Speaker 3: But thinking out loud, do you think in twenty twenty six,
Speaker 3: let's let's pick an age, like an eight year old
Speaker 3: is in more danger than when I was an eight
Speaker 3: year old one thousand years ago? You know, so I
Speaker 3: was in nineteen seventy one hours eight, right, So you
Speaker 3: go like, I wonder if there are more threats and
Speaker 3: danger as a percentage.
Speaker 1: Now because I remember some of the shit that.
Speaker 3: I did growing up in the bush was pretty fucking dangerous, sincerely, right,
Speaker 3: Or I wonder if there are more external threats now,
Speaker 3: or there's just more awareness or greater attention paid to those.
Speaker 3: I know you don't know the answer, but what do
Speaker 3: you feel about that?
Speaker 4: Oh, when you think about it, We're all living in
Speaker 4: this world where there is actually a lot of threats
Speaker 4: in a lot of different ways, And I think it's
Speaker 4: just tricky balance between being aware of these threats and
Speaker 4: trying to be mindful of safety, but at the same
Speaker 4: time not making this such a fearful world where we're
Speaker 4: scared of doing anything and kids are constantly scanning for safety. Right,
Speaker 4: how do we navigate this? And I think it's this
Speaker 4: is a tricky one. I don't think that there is
Speaker 4: any answer to that, but I think it's important to
Speaker 4: when I look at, say, childhood trauma, the ability to
Speaker 4: feel safe again is actually the healing part. So for
Speaker 4: a lot of kids there in living in that mode
Speaker 4: of scanning for safety and thinking that the world is
Speaker 4: a bad place and they're going to get hurt again, and.
Speaker 2: You kind of want to go the opposite.
Speaker 4: You want to be able to lean into the lightness
Speaker 4: of life and that it is a safe It's almost
Speaker 4: like what you see right is going to be what
Speaker 4: you see, So it's how do we then? I mean,
Speaker 4: if you're sitting there scrolling in the news, the world
Speaker 4: looks excremely scary if you turn them often you're on
Speaker 4: the beach and you're follocking in the water, can you,
Speaker 4: like your whole body feel safe again?
Speaker 2: So it's a balance, and it's really tricky.
Speaker 4: I don't think that there is an answer for that,
Speaker 4: but I think realizing a lot of it is our
Speaker 4: perception too, right. We can create our own realities around
Speaker 4: this based on environments too, which matters.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: How much do you think, it's like we're doing a
Speaker 3: grown up interview today, how much do you think good
Speaker 3: parenting or parenting in general is about skill? How much
Speaker 3: is about intuition? How much is about learning by doing?
Speaker 3: And how much is about luck?
Speaker 1: Like or is it? I guess it's all of it.
Speaker 1: But what do you like? Skill, intuition, learning by doing?
Speaker 3: Luck?
Speaker 1: What do you think is the biggest factor?
Speaker 2: I think it's stress.
Speaker 1: I think stress.
Speaker 4: I think yeah, because I mean I think are going
Speaker 4: to parenting skill classes and being like, I don't know
Speaker 4: how to do this, Someone teach me. But I think
Speaker 4: if you really worked on the stress, yep, you become
Speaker 4: more connected to yourself. You know what they need? What
Speaker 4: you need is what they need? Like it actually is
Speaker 4: very intuitive for a lot of parents. It's just they
Speaker 4: don't trust themselves anymore and they're like, what do I say?
Speaker 4: And how do I say it? But if they've really
Speaker 4: dropped kind of the performance and kind of going Okay,
Speaker 4: what they need is what I need? They need safety,
Speaker 4: I need safety, they need this, I need this, you
Speaker 4: would do it in such a more natural way, And
Speaker 4: I think a lot of the time stress blocks it.
Speaker 4: I mean, you could teach someone all the skills in
Speaker 4: the world of parenting, but if they're stressed the kind
Speaker 4: access ay of that, they're operating in a different part
Speaker 4: of their brain.
Speaker 2: So I don't think there's enough.
Speaker 4: Discussion around what stress does to our brain and how
Speaker 4: that puts us in survival mode, and that's why it's
Speaker 4: really hard to parent.
Speaker 1: Do you think that you've got two kids, do you
Speaker 1: think that you were a better mum second time or first?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Do you think.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, surely like a bit of experience and a
Speaker 3: bit of on the job learning makes you a better parent.
Speaker 3: Like I feel like kids who are in families of
Speaker 3: five or six it's like the six kid almost has
Speaker 3: to raise themselves because they're just like an appendage to
Speaker 3: the family.
Speaker 4: And isn't that interesting though, because it's almost like we
Speaker 4: live in a society where we think the more focus,
Speaker 4: the better, But you're right, it's actually like you realize
Speaker 4: a less focus, they kind of just get to figure
Speaker 4: out things themselves, and it's better for them because we're
Speaker 4: not trying to micromanage their experiences. So not just experience,
Speaker 4: it's almost like the shift of focus. If you've got
Speaker 4: five kids compared to one kid, you can't focus on
Speaker 4: them so in depth, you know, as you would this one.
Speaker 4: So they do get more of a chance to figure
Speaker 4: things out and get support from their siblings and other
Speaker 4: people in their lives.
Speaker 2: So I think that's it. It's not just the experience.
Speaker 4: It's also how the focal point is just not so intense.
Speaker 3: Right when does giving praise from being a good thing too,
Speaker 3: maybe not such a good thing.
Speaker 2: I think both are necessary.
Speaker 4: So we talk, you know, in our child centered play
Speaker 4: therapy and the play therapy filial therapy that we teach
Speaker 4: parents to do at home with their kids, we actually say,
Speaker 4: don't praise and the reason let me talk about why
Speaker 4: praise is good. Of course, I mean, it's just natural.
Speaker 4: You're like, good job. You know that they're looking at
Speaker 4: you for a bit of validation, and you're going, I
Speaker 4: hear you, I see you. That's great, And that works
Speaker 4: in a lot of teaching aspects, and there's a lot
Speaker 4: of research around the positive reinforcement or good But on
Speaker 4: the flip side, when we suspend praise, it gives a
Speaker 4: child an opportunity to think about what do they think
Speaker 4: about that? And you know, it's like do you like
Speaker 4: my picture? It's like, looks like you're wondering what I
Speaker 4: think about your picture? Yep, yes, yeah, And you know,
Speaker 4: so then you stop and you're not praising. You're like,
Speaker 4: and then you give them an opportunity to kind of
Speaker 4: be able to figure out what they feel. It seems
Speaker 4: like you put a lot of effort into that in
Speaker 4: that painting, and they're like yeah, you know, or they
Speaker 4: might be like, oh, I hate it seems like you're
Speaker 4: really disappointed with that painting.
Speaker 2: They're like, so you're not really putting a value point
Speaker 2: on them.
Speaker 4: You're really engaging their internal compass, their internal sense of
Speaker 4: how they see things, and that's really important. So I
Speaker 4: do believe we need to create experiences, and I think again,
Speaker 4: therapeutic plays right for that where we are suspending our
Speaker 4: PreK and we're giving them a chance to utilize their
Speaker 4: own internal motivations compass how they see things.
Speaker 1: I could.
Speaker 3: I just had a picture in my head then of
Speaker 3: me as a parent, which there's a funny thought, but
Speaker 3: my four year old coming up with a painting that
Speaker 3: he did or she did, and me going, well, that's
Speaker 3: fucking terrible, like like, really did you even try? I mean,
Speaker 3: it's out of perspective. For colors are all wrong. You know,
Speaker 3: you've gone over the lines. No, that's probably not the
Speaker 3: go All right, a couple more then I'll let you go.
Speaker 3: I want to talk about something that's spoken about way
Speaker 3: too much, but we've never spoken about it, I don't think,
Speaker 3: and it's generally spoken about in relation to children's slash eight, nine, ten, teenagers.
Speaker 3: What's your vibe because you work a lot with toddlers?
Speaker 3: Am I correct in that as well as older kids?
Speaker 3: But you have two three year olds.
Speaker 2: So play therapy is usually for three plus.
Speaker 3: I would say, yeah, okay, what are your thoughts around
Speaker 3: you know, three year olds and screens like, and I
Speaker 3: know you're not a tech guru and you're not a neurobiologist,
Speaker 3: but you're a psychologist, so you certainly understand the impact
Speaker 3: of a certain stimuli on a human being. Like, when
Speaker 3: is the time where you would say it's okay to
Speaker 3: introduce screens to kids in a controlled way?
Speaker 4: I think this is really tricky because there's obviously so
Speaker 4: much out there around do this, this is how much
Speaker 4: you should use. And I think it's understanding that all
Speaker 4: screen time is not.
Speaker 2: Going to be comparable.
Speaker 4: Right if they're watching something kind of meaningful versus say scrolling,
Speaker 4: it's going to do different things to their brains. I
Speaker 4: think screens can be a really good opportunity. It's the
Speaker 4: way that our world is going. So I think for
Speaker 4: a child not to be able to navigate a computer
Speaker 4: is actually going to be to their disadvantage or to know.
Speaker 2: You know that there is at things on a screen.
Speaker 4: But on the flip side, just like with us, too
Speaker 4: much is you know, it impacts the time outside, it
Speaker 4: impacts are played, impacts creativity and things like that. So
Speaker 4: I think it's probably looking at it more as everything
Speaker 4: in life are balance and kind of going. Okay, So
Speaker 4: screen time isn't just screen time. What is that screen time?
Speaker 4: It's going to be some passive watching a TV. There
Speaker 4: is going to be some app playing, there is going
Speaker 4: to be FaceTime with a family member.
Speaker 2: Like, there's all just different kinds.
Speaker 4: So I think it's it's not so much limiting screen time,
Speaker 4: but it's more I think adding not just that, but
Speaker 4: adding more boundaries with that, or adding more other things
Speaker 4: in their life. So it's just becomes this balance. I
Speaker 4: think for a lot of parents, shutting it off the
Speaker 4: same time of night really works well because a child,
Speaker 4: it's like cool, I can get that out of my memory,
Speaker 4: and then they start.
Speaker 2: To be more creative or doing other things.
Speaker 4: Some parents, you know, have different ways of different days
Speaker 4: where they don't use it. I don't think that there's
Speaker 4: any right or wrong. I think it's just something that
Speaker 4: we're all trying to navigate. Geez, I'm trying to navigate that.
Speaker 1: Right with my phone.
Speaker 2: It's like my best friend.
Speaker 4: Everything's on this little device, and so I think it's
Speaker 4: just trying to know. From a practical point of view too.
Speaker 3: I think, like many things like food, like drugs, like exercise,
Speaker 3: it's dose dependent.
Speaker 2: You know, it's not that's a good one for it.
Speaker 3: It's dose dependent. It's not about is phone use bad,
Speaker 3: it's like how much is bad?
Speaker 1: Or is you know?
Speaker 3: So yeah, that makes sense, all right. Last one for
Speaker 3: the minute. What's the consequence of kids being around parents
Speaker 3: who argue?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a tricky Yeah, that's a tricky one because
Speaker 4: the arguing can happen in different ways.
Speaker 2: Arguing could be their to all.
Speaker 3: I'm not talking about domestic violence or scream or screaming.
Speaker 3: I'm just talking about mum and dad disagreeing and getting
Speaker 3: a little bit grumpy at each other. And I'm not
Speaker 3: talking about a DV or anything horrible, but just general,
Speaker 3: you know, knowing mum's a bit mad at dad or
Speaker 3: vice versa, or all that normal human stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: See, and that stuff can be good because what they're
Speaker 4: seeing is that two people can see things differently and
Speaker 4: that's really anticipated And what does that conflict resolution look like? Right,
Speaker 4: and being able to separate themselves from the problem and
Speaker 4: kind of going no, I want this and I want
Speaker 4: that and how that plays out. I think that that
Speaker 4: can be really healthy because that's a reality. Right, We're
Speaker 4: always going to have conflict in some kind of way,
Speaker 4: whether it's with a colleague, whether it's in your workplace,
Speaker 4: whether it's with friends, and how do kids learn how
Speaker 4: to navigate that without seeing it? I think what gets
Speaker 4: hard is that often we don't have good conflict resolution
Speaker 4: skills at all, witnessed our own adults in our life,
Speaker 4: parents or people do it in very different ways, and
Speaker 4: that's what comes out right. So you know, that's when
Speaker 4: parents kind of go into name calling, into other kind
Speaker 4: of things, so and.
Speaker 2: Then the shame kind of hits.
Speaker 4: And so for them to actually really dig down and go,
Speaker 4: what do I do in moments of conflict? Do I
Speaker 4: shut down? Do I try and fight back verbally? Do
Speaker 4: I freeze?
Speaker 2: And being able to go what does that repair look like?
Speaker 2: How am I actually in real time going to be
Speaker 2: doing that?
Speaker 4: I think it's really good for kids to see repaired too,
Speaker 4: because what happens for a lot of kids. They may
Speaker 4: see something and then it's like and no one talks
Speaker 4: about it again, and then they just pretend and then
Speaker 4: everything's okay after a few days of silence or in
Speaker 4: hours of silence.
Speaker 2: Or whatever, that is.
Speaker 4: So for them to actually see what does repair look like?
Speaker 4: How can we come back from that? And I think
Speaker 4: a lot of parents have shame around that, which is
Speaker 4: why they don't do their repair.
Speaker 2: So it's a really tricky.
Speaker 4: One, isn't it, Because I don't think a lot of
Speaker 4: people can manage conflicts, well, none of us, you know,
Speaker 4: we're all still learning this.
Speaker 2: So it's how do we then show kids? How do
Speaker 2: we teach kids out?
Speaker 1: Yeah? The more you talk, the more questions I have.
Speaker 1: Have you got time for two more? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Both?
Speaker 1: All right? Is boredom a bad thing for kids?
Speaker 3: Like? Is that the enemy? Do they always have to
Speaker 3: be you know, entertained and amused and occupied? And like,
Speaker 3: is it okay for kids to just go through some boredom?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 4: I think the bottom actually creates so much opportunities for
Speaker 4: creativity when they get that. But it's just hard to
Speaker 4: create the circumstances where they can get bored in our society, right,
Speaker 4: there's always things to do. There's like, you know, you've
Speaker 4: got the sports, and then you've got these playdids, and
Speaker 4: then you've got devices. So I think it is really
Speaker 4: important to create structure and that where you can actually go.
Speaker 4: We literally got shut down for this period of time,
Speaker 4: and so you're kind of creating conditions for kids to
Speaker 4: feel bored because and it's like, okay, what do they
Speaker 4: do with that boredom? And it's a good skill to
Speaker 4: be able to have because as adults, right, we also
Speaker 4: want to be able to tolerate boredom as well.
Speaker 3: Last one, which is quite a selfish question because it's
Speaker 3: in my kind of my wheelhouse a little bit, but
Speaker 3: not with kids.
Speaker 1: Right, So you're the expert.
Speaker 3: So we know that there's a thing in sight called
Speaker 3: theory of mind, which for our listeners you probably know
Speaker 3: because you heard me, is really just trying to understand
Speaker 3: how other people think, having an awareness around others, the
Speaker 3: way that other people experience the world. We know that
Speaker 3: that kids tend to have a degree of theory of
Speaker 3: mind around two, three, four, am I?
Speaker 1: Right? Sam?
Speaker 3: Is it like when they start to realize that other
Speaker 3: people think differently to them and that their experience is
Speaker 3: not the same.
Speaker 4: I think it's on top of my head think I
Speaker 4: think it's around That sounds legit.
Speaker 3: I think it's around three or four. You know, when
Speaker 3: do you think kids start to become self aware and
Speaker 3: start to form an identity? This is very complicated questions,
Speaker 3: so I just want your thoughts, like, when do we
Speaker 3: start to feel like we have an identity. I am this,
Speaker 3: I am that, because I think it's not something I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like this little.
Speaker 3: Identity emerges over time, but it's not something that we
Speaker 3: ever really consciously kind of chose or navigated necessarily.
Speaker 4: No, And obviously different theories see this in different ways.
Speaker 4: One of the theories I'm thinking of is around childhood
Speaker 4: development and talk about different conflicts happening at different stages
Speaker 4: of a child's life. And so you know, you've got
Speaker 4: like the autonomy right conflict there for Toddler's whether like
Speaker 4: I want to be myself more and I want to
Speaker 4: own thing. But the identity stuff actually comes more out
Speaker 4: in the teenage, So that's interesting around ye who am
Speaker 4: I and where do I fit in this world? Is
Speaker 4: probably the teenage element, but I think throughout childhood they
Speaker 4: are doing it in little ways too, you know, in
Speaker 4: terms of school and friendships.
Speaker 2: But as adults we're still doing that as well.
Speaker 4: And so you know, what people see is like midlife
Speaker 4: crisises is actually it serves a purpose and kind of
Speaker 4: going and you see this a lot in mid life.
Speaker 4: It's like, hang on, I think I've been playing to
Speaker 4: someone else's script or well, I think I should be
Speaker 4: doing all other people's expectations.
Speaker 2: What do I want to do?
Speaker 4: So even a period like that actually serves a really
Speaker 4: good purpose because it's like they're becoming more of themselves.
Speaker 4: So I think we shouldn't. I think we're always doing
Speaker 4: that in little ways, and I think it is really
Speaker 4: good at a younger age to be able to slight
Speaker 4: these conversations around that where identities aren't just roles, they
Speaker 4: go deeper than that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, last one promise promise. So we talk
Speaker 3: a lot about in twenty twenty six. We talk about
Speaker 3: psychological safety, yeah, and creating safe spaces and all of that,
Speaker 3: which thumbs up. But does our focus on creating psycho
Speaker 3: logical safety for our kids come at the cost of
Speaker 3: psychological adaptability and flexibility?
Speaker 2: Yes? I think so.
Speaker 4: I think we've almost like gone the other way, haven't
Speaker 4: we with that?
Speaker 2: And I don't think we're putting.
Speaker 4: Enough focus on Like you said, I think psychological flexibility
Speaker 4: should be more for a focus than psychological.
Speaker 2: Safety because egal.
Speaker 4: Flexibility includes the safety, but it also includes them to
Speaker 4: be a bit more, not just adaptable. We're acknowledging the
Speaker 4: boundaries that need to be set with certain things. We're
Speaker 4: acknowledging that it's like this and this potentially it's not.
Speaker 2: Just one way. It's almost like.
Speaker 4: It's almost like parents trying to, you know, validate kids
Speaker 4: feelings twenty four seven. They end up just becoming it's
Speaker 4: almost like a robotic about it, right, actually going.
Speaker 2: Nope, this is the time. I'm definitely going to provide
Speaker 2: this experience.
Speaker 4: But then I also need to like shift my focus
Speaker 4: away from that and give them a chance to be
Speaker 4: able to navigate this themselves. And there's boundaries around that.
Speaker 4: So I think we've definitely gone the other way with that,
Speaker 4: and I think psychological flexibility needs to be more of
Speaker 4: a key focus.
Speaker 3: And I feel like if we allow kids to have experiences,
Speaker 3: you know, obviously we're watching, we're around, but we allow
Speaker 3: them to have experiences and encounters and moments and solve problems,
Speaker 3: which develops their psychological flexibility, then their threshold for dealing
Speaker 3: with hard stuff like their psychological safety.
Speaker 1: Kind of what am I saying.
Speaker 3: I'm saying that in certain environments which would freak another
Speaker 3: five year old out, this five year old might be
Speaker 3: comfortable because she's been doing all of this stuff to
Speaker 3: just deal with the complexity or some of the complexity
Speaker 3: or discomfort of growing up in the world. Whereas when
Speaker 3: we're putting them in this little kind of I guess
Speaker 3: up well intended bubble where we're kind of we're running
Speaker 3: the offense all the time or the defense all the time,
Speaker 3: I should say, and we're always doing everything so they
Speaker 3: don't have to feel anything bad or they don't have
Speaker 3: to have any uncomfortable experience, Like we're putting a limit
Speaker 3: on their capacity. So when they get pushed out of
Speaker 3: home into school with thirty other kids, all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: in this room with a teacher, that's attention has divided
Speaker 3: thirty ways or whatever the number is.
Speaker 1: Twenty ways.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like I think that is a thing
Speaker 3: that's been maybe pushed into the background a little bit
Speaker 3: as we've honed in on this obsession we have with
Speaker 3: psychological safety.
Speaker 4: Yes, and like you said, you were saying, you know
Speaker 4: us being there, we're actually not there. Like if you
Speaker 4: think about school, right, they're in pre primacyarily one, you're
Speaker 4: not a teacher's not there to hear every single conversation
Speaker 4: in the playground, and so there is this I guess
Speaker 4: we want to equip children with the skills of like,
Speaker 4: not everyone is going to like you, Like, no, everyone
Speaker 4: likes us as adults, to have those colleagues that you're
Speaker 4: closer to and the ones that you don't. You don't
Speaker 4: have to play with everyone. You don't have to invite
Speaker 4: everyone to your parties. And if once there's something that
Speaker 4: they don't like, yeah, you could go tell the teacher,
Speaker 4: but you could also just not play with them and
Speaker 4: walk away like that's okay too, right, So it's almost
Speaker 4: like getting them in this permission to be like, yeah,
Speaker 4: this is kind of what happens, and people are going
Speaker 4: to say things that we don't like, and what do
Speaker 4: we do with that?
Speaker 2: So you're right, I think we're not.
Speaker 4: Really It's almost like the zero tolerance of bullying in schools.
Speaker 4: I think both contributes to this issue, because there is
Speaker 4: bullying in where places there is no such thing as
Speaker 4: a zero like there will never be zero bullying.
Speaker 2: If anything. It's not labeling people as you're a bully
Speaker 2: and you're not.
Speaker 4: It's kind of going these are what behaviors kind of
Speaker 4: constitute is that? And these are the thing we can
Speaker 4: do to move away from it? And I think if
Speaker 4: we normalize that more than everyone's got the capacity to
Speaker 4: use bullying type behaviors, then we'll give children, will equip
Speaker 4: them more with actually managing that, and that's going to
Speaker 4: help them when they're an adult, rather than going zero
Speaker 4: tolerance shut down.
Speaker 2: This doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 3: Beautiful, get off my slavebox now, No, I love it.
Speaker 3: That was one of my favorite chats with you. What
Speaker 3: do you want to point people towards? Where do you
Speaker 3: want to steer people to your website or your your
Speaker 3: work or.
Speaker 4: So my Instagram is Dr Sam Casey or my website
Speaker 4: which is dr Samcasey dot com. I have a actually
Speaker 4: your course coming up which is around breaking cycles without
Speaker 4: breaking yourself. So I talk about some of those things
Speaker 4: that we've mentioned here around that I don't want to
Speaker 4: mess up my kid.
Speaker 2: Kind of cycle?
Speaker 1: Is that online or face to face?
Speaker 2: It's online?
Speaker 1: Oh, kitty up, but a cup that's great.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll say goodbye a fair but Sam, appreciate you
Speaker 3: and keep doing the great work you do.
Speaker 2: Thanks you too, Craig