1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gadigel 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: People of the Urination. 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Real Story with Joe Hildebrand. 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 2: It is crunch time for the Albaneze government, the last 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 2: week of parliament until well forever. Who knows what's going 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 2: to happen. This is make or break time. The government 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 2: has put it all on the line. Massive issues, the 8 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: Misinformation Bill that has just gone off to quietly die, 9 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 2: the social Media Bill which will triumph to sounds of 10 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: trumpeting glory, and of course the throwdown to the Greens 11 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 2: over the housing Bill. It's on on like Donkey Kong. 12 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 2: All that more coming up now. Later on the show, 13 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 2: we're going to talk to an expert who will blow 14 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 2: your mind about the real, hidden damage, the hidden danger 15 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 2: of social media for young people, what it's really doing 16 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: to our kids and how it's doing it. And I've 17 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 2: got to say, as someone who actually supports them all 18 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: in for free speech between consenting adults, but again as 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: someone who is already all in favor of the ban 20 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: on social media for kids, even I hadn't seen this 21 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 2: and it blew my mind. It'll blow your so make 22 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 2: sure you stick around. But firstly, let's get to the 23 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: Misinformation Bill and has anybody seen it lately? Where did 24 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: it go? Sure it was around here somewhere, must be 25 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 2: back down the back of the couch. This was another 26 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 2: bill that the government introduced in order to combat misinformation 27 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 2: and disinformation online. And I don't want to get into 28 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 2: the nitty gritty of the technocratic jargon, but this is 29 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 2: what experts describe as a dog. It is terrible. That 30 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 2: is not an acronym. It is just a dog of 31 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 2: a bill. It was a terrible idea, should never have happened, 32 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: and now it's quietly gone off to die. Now what 33 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: the government was trying to do was find a way 34 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: to ban block correct What were they thinking? I don't know. 35 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: Misinformation and disinformation online, now, that are two different things. 36 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: Misinformation is a view that people genuinely have about something 37 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: that is not true. The problem is who gets to 38 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: decide what's true or not. You don't have to go 39 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 2: very far to find a whole bunch of examples where 40 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: every expert was lined up and saying these things are 41 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: absolutely true and it's completely incontrovertible, and anyone who thinks 42 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: otherwise is a nutter or a conspiracy theorist or a 43 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 2: bad faith actor or a Russian spy, and suddenly turns 44 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: out the opposite's actually true. And you can go through 45 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 2: everything from you that we had to close schools during COVID. No, 46 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 2: all the inquiries since then have shown that, in fact, 47 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: that was wait for it, a terrible idea that has 48 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: been terrible for kids. Again. Also, the other restrictions that 49 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: were applied during COVID were found by subsequent reports to 50 00:02:55,639 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 2: be unnecessary after the first round. And this is the 51 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: problem with this bill. Who gets to decide what's true 52 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 2: or not? Who gets to decide what is misinformation? Now, 53 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: anyone who said at the time that these restrictions are 54 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: too harsh or we shouldn't be closing schools, it was 55 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: one of them. They could have been censored under this 56 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: bill for spreading misinformation. But it turned out they were 57 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 2: right all along. So again, even if this was done 58 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 2: with the best of intentions, how does a government get 59 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: to actually act as God and all knowing, omniscient being 60 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: who can dictate what is true or not? And then 61 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: even if it could or did, would that government not 62 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: then be a kind of totalitarian dictatorship? I mean, if 63 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: the government is deciding what the facts are and what 64 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 2: is true and what is not true. Then isn't that 65 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: basically a state run media or a state controlled media, 66 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: a state censored media. So it's a terrible, terrible, terrible idea. 67 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 2: And the government, to its credit, very quickly realized this. 68 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: The problem was it had just introduced this by saying, oh, no, 69 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: it's absolutely fine, there's no problems here. It's a great idea. 70 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 2: Nothing's no, you don't have to worry about any of that. No, 71 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: that's not going to happen. That's just a conspiracy theory. 72 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: All your concerns about the Misinformation Bill, they're just misinformation. 73 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 2: Don't worry. And the best news is, as soon as 74 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 2: this bill is passed, we can just ban all those 75 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 2: views and you don't have to have them anymore, and 76 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: then everyone will be happy again. You can see how 77 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: the cogs are starting to turn and people are starting 78 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 2: to realize that this is actually not a very good idea, 79 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: and so the government's just gone, okay, what do we do. 80 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: Can't really go through with it, can't really implement it 81 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: because that would turn us into a crazy or Wellyan dictatorship. 82 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 2: And no one's going to support it because it's a 83 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: terrible idea, you know. And Peter Dutton and the Greens 84 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 2: agree on something that you're probably not going to get 85 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 2: it through the Senate. So what do they do? They 86 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 2: just have to quiet let it die. And so this 87 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 2: was the strategy behind the government's Misinformation Bill, which was 88 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 2: to make sure that it didn't pass at any cost. 89 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: And so there are all these headlines around this week saying, ah, 90 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 2: the government stuffed a major blow, a major embarrassment. The 91 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: Misinformation Bill has been killed off. No, the government just 92 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 2: got a get out of jail free card because it's 93 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,679 Speaker 2: misinformation Bill didn't pass. If the Misinformation Bill had passed, 94 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: the government would be in all sorts of trouble. Can 95 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 2: you imagine the legion of embarrassments that it would unleash, 96 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: Imagine all the gotchas, Imagine the number of times the 97 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 2: government's claims would be caught out by misinformation that's already 98 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: started happening online as an example of where the Misinformation 99 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: Bill could go so horribly wrong. Why these powers are 100 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: just a terrible, terrible, scary and also quite funny idea. 101 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: The Government's already been brought undone and by them already 102 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: getting tangled up in them. And so the government needs 103 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: this thing to die, it needs it to be killed off. 104 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,799 Speaker 2: But of course it can't kill it off itself because 105 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 2: it's already gone all in on it. So it has 106 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 2: to get the Greens and the Coalition to do it 107 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: for them, and so sends it to the Senate just 108 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 2: says here you go, here's the misinformation. But what you're 109 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 2: not going to pass it? Oh that's a terrible shame. 110 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: Oh so what negotiate? No, no, no, we don't need 111 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 2: to No, no, we don't need togotiate. We could do 112 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 2: it what you do on the Housing Bill, because this 113 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 2: is what the government did on it's other big, actually 114 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: important bill, it's Housing Bill, which is providing incentives for 115 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: first home buyers to be able to get into the 116 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: market by the government matching their savings for a deposit, 117 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: and of course for developers to get tax incentives to 118 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 2: build big developments to rent out to people, so trying 119 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 2: to solve the home ownership crisis and the rental crisis 120 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: at the same time. The government goes to the Greens 121 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: with that and says pass this or you're screwed, all right, 122 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: In other words, block this ida you too. There is 123 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 2: nothing more we would love than to go to the 124 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,679 Speaker 2: saying you the Greens banging on about housing, moaning about 125 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: how no one can find a place to rent, and 126 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 2: you blocked a bill that directly provides more places to 127 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: rent and makes it easier for more people to buy 128 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: the homes. We dare you this is a game of 129 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 2: chicken akin to footloose, where you know, Kevin Bacon's driving 130 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: the grater and to the other kid and just saying, 131 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 2: come on, we are going down this ride. Compare and 132 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: contrast to the Misinformation Bill, where they just sort of 133 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 2: go to sender, sort of wave it around saying anybody 134 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: who want to know, okay, yeah no, so didn't hear no, No, 135 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: that's all right, don't matter. So they just could not 136 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: get rid of this thing quick enough. And that tells 137 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: you something. I suppose. Sometimes in politics the most important 138 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: thing is knowing how to kill, But sometimes in politics 139 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: the most important thing is knowing how to die. Now, 140 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 2: all this stuff is super important in and of itself, 141 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 2: but it's even more important, even more supercharged, because this 142 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 2: is the last parliamentary sitting week before Christmas, and possibly 143 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: even the last parliamentary sitting week before Anthony Albanezi calls 144 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: the election and Albow and Labor have basically said on 145 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 2: all the bills that they've got on the table, take 146 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: it or leave it. In terms of the Misinformation Bill, 147 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: they very much want people to leave it. But in 148 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 2: terms of the social Media Bill and the Housing Bill, 149 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: they are staring down their opponents and they are saying, 150 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: I dare you to oppose this now. There is little 151 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 2: doubt that these bills will be passed as a result 152 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: of that. They've already basically just knocked the Greens out 153 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 2: of the way with the Housing bill and given them 154 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 2: a well deserved thumping. And even though some people in 155 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 2: the coalition have the jitters about the social media ban, 156 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: it is extremely extremely likely that Peter Dutton, it's a 157 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 2: bit of a tough guy himself, knows how to throw 158 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 2: his weight around. We'll stare them down and we are 159 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 2: backing this, or at least enough of them will back 160 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 2: it to make sure it gets up. And this is 161 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: incredibly important because Anthony Albanezy needs to start staking his 162 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 2: claim on these big sort of tent pole marquee issues, 163 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 2: these issues that are incredibly important to people. Cost of 164 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 2: living obviously, is the number one, and that's where housing 165 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 2: comes in. Housing is arguably the biggest cost of living 166 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 2: pressure for Australians. There's not much good even you know, 167 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: getting bill shocked from your power bill if you don't 168 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 2: actually have a house to power. So it is the 169 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: most central and vital element of the cost of living 170 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 2: crisis and the government needs to be able to say 171 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 2: it is doing something about it. And finally, after two 172 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: years of the Greens trying to hamstring this legislation, it 173 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: is going to get through. It is going to get 174 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: through on Labour's terms. And so it means that the 175 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: Greens cannot take credit for its passing or any element 176 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 2: of it, because all the things that they tried to 177 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: put into it which were insane and idiotic. Labor has 178 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 2: just said, na f off, take it or leave it. 179 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 2: And so this is Labour's bill, is Elbows bill, and 180 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 2: finally they can say this is what we are doing. 181 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 2: This is happening again with the social media. People are saying, well, 182 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 2: hang on a minute, why did you just sort of 183 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 2: do a bit of a try before you buy and 184 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 2: say oh, this will just be a trial, or this 185 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 2: have a sunset clause or whatever. Look, legislation could be 186 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 2: changed all the time anyway. It doesn't need to have 187 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: a sunset clause, because the sunset clause is the Parliament. 188 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: The Parliament can change any legislation that it has already passed. 189 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 2: That is of course slightly different to something that goes 190 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 2: into the Constitution, which can only be changed by a referendument. 191 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 2: Let's not talk about that ever again under any circumstances. 192 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 2: So the government has to stake out its economic position, 193 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 2: hang its economic credentials on the housing package, and it 194 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: has to hang its social credentials it's values for parents 195 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 2: and kids on the social media stuff. And it has 196 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 2: to do it this week in this parliament because it 197 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 2: could be the last one before it goes to an 198 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 2: election where it will fight on these sorts of issues, 199 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 2: and it is going to be a very very very 200 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: tough election, tougher I think than anyone would have predicted 201 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: even just a year or two ago. A Redbridge pole 202 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: has just come out. These are the Polsters du jure. 203 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 2: They're so hot right now. They're like Hansel. Redbridge is 204 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: an outfit founded by a bow called Coos Samaras, who 205 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: is a former senior labor official from Victoria and Tony Barry, 206 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: who is a former senior liberal strategist, and they have 207 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 2: basically come together. It's fantastic. Whenever you see these polls 208 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 2: come out, they're always seems very carefully calibrated to deliver 209 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: giant sort of warning signs. I would call it constructive 210 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: criticism to the Albertezy labor government. And whenever they have 211 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: someone coming out to sort of sink the boot in 212 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 2: or give a bit of a tickle and say where 213 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,719 Speaker 2: the PM's going hopelessly wrong, they always wheel out the 214 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: liberal guy to do it. So it doesn't look like 215 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 2: dear old causes rating on the ticket. And again you 216 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 2: can imagine the sort of grumblings in the Labor party 217 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 2: about it. But Cosmars is very smart. You can follow 218 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 2: him on Twitter. He's got some really interesting insights and 219 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 2: much like me, he is very, very concerned about the 220 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: fact that labor is losing labor. Labor is actually losing 221 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: the working class, It is losing blue collar voters, and 222 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 2: they are turning towards Peter Dutton. And you can see 223 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 2: this in all the data that they produce. You can 224 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 2: see this in the latest poles in News court Master 225 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 2: Heads by James Campbell. This is our disasterrous you've got 226 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 2: this position where white collar voters are far more likely 227 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 2: to think that labor is doing a good job and 228 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: that they're heading in the right direction, or they're better 229 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 2: off than they were before labor got elected than blue collars. Now, 230 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 2: part of this is understandable because of course blue collar 231 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: workers are likely to be less well off, less rich 232 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: than white collar workers, and so they're likely to be 233 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: doing it tougher, So that is also understandable. But there 234 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 2: are also trends that have come up time and time 235 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: again about tradees turning to Peter Dutton, blue collar workers 236 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 2: no longer feeling like they're being represented by the values 237 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: that in a city, you know, tertiary educated, affluent elites 238 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 2: have who think that they are the left. And this 239 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 2: has been a problem that you know, is as old 240 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 2: as communism itself, but it is a real problem right now, 241 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 2: and it's a real problem in an environment where Donald 242 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: Trump just got elected President of the United States of 243 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: America on the back of blue collar voters. The Democrats 244 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 2: lost their blue collar base in the US just this month, 245 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 2: with catastrophic effects for them that we are talking. You know, 246 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,599 Speaker 2: if they do not learn from this and change immediately. 247 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: This could be a sort of generational wipeout for them, 248 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: and labor is facing the exact same thing here, the 249 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: exact same problem, although with much more smart and competent 250 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: people leading it, which is their saving grace. One of 251 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: the interesting things about the red Bridge Pole is that 252 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: it's now found that majority of people think that Peter 253 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: Dutton is ready to be the Prime minister, is ready 254 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 2: to lead the country. That doesn't necessarily mean they think 255 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 2: he should. It just means they think he is a 256 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: viable alternative. They call these people Dutton curious. Sounds a 257 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: bit like a rum at a swinger's party, doesn't it, 258 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: Are you Dunton curious? Sir? Step this way? But so 259 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 2: this means that he is not the right off that 260 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: so many of the people on the left, and again 261 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: not the blue collar workers, but the elite, inner city 262 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: tertiary educated, you know, all in on climate change, all 263 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: in on pronouns, those types. They always thought, Oh, Peter 264 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 2: Dutton is unelectable, Peter Dutton. You know, no one's going 265 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: to vote Peter Dutton. He's toxic. Oh Peter Dutton, luck, 266 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: he's so mean? And who else did they think that 267 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: about I'm just trying to remember, Oh, that's right, Donald Trump, 268 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 2: the guy who's about to become president of the United 269 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: States of America again, so again, all these people are 270 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 2: completely out of touch with the values of working class 271 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: people in the outer suburbs and the regions. And for 272 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: the first time in any red MIoD poll, Peter Dutton 273 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 2: is now considered by the electorate at large to be 274 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 2: ready to BPM. This means that Labour's previous strategy of 275 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: get Dutton, his previous strategy of saying you know, it's 276 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 2: either us or Peter Dutton and thinking that once voters 277 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: have to choose between Albo and Dutton, then suddenly Albow's 278 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: stocks will rise because Dutton is so electable. Rat Raw 279 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: not according to this pole and not according to Donald Trump. 280 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 2: The one saving grace in the research shows that almost 281 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: half of people think that the country is headed in 282 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: the wrong direction, compared to less than a third who 283 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: think it's heading in the right direction. Now, normally you 284 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: would say, oh my god, that's terrible, that's carnage for 285 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 2: the government. You've got almost half of people saying the 286 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 2: country's going the wrong way, compared to less than a 287 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: thirty think it's going in the right way. Those sorts 288 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 2: of numbers would usually bode very, very very badly for 289 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 2: the incumbent government because obviously, if people think the government 290 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 2: is leading the country in the wrong direction, they're not 291 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: going to vote vote for it a second time. However, 292 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 2: those numbers for Joe Biden and the Democrats and Kamala 293 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: Harris as VP, those numbers were more like two thirds 294 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 2: to three quarters of people who thought that the country 295 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 2: was heading in the wrong direction compared to just a 296 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 2: tiny minority who thought it was heading in the right direction. 297 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 2: So the good news is for Labor that while there 298 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: get Dutton campaign, you know, make Peter Dutton Australia's Donald Trump, 299 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 2: not unless you want him to win. That strategy is 300 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: now out the window and they've got to start to 301 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 2: run a more positive strategy on social issues like social media, 302 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 2: economic issues like housing. But it is nowhere near as 303 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 2: bad in Australia. The discontent with the way the country 304 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 2: is going and the direction it's heading is nowhere near 305 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 2: as bad in Australia than it was in the US 306 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 2: on election day. And that is some good news for 307 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 2: Albow and boy does he need some good news right now. 308 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: The big story this week that absolutely everyone is talking 309 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: about and some people are pulling their hair out about, 310 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: is the proposed ban on social media for kids under 311 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: the age of sixteen. Now, this has gone from being 312 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 2: pretty much a all abroad consensus issue, with parents, educators, 313 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 2: the government, the opposition all supporting this ban to suddenly 314 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,239 Speaker 2: being quite contentious. There are people who are rising up 315 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 2: on both sides of politics surprise, surprise, the far right 316 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 2: and the far left, and also some experts who are saying, 317 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: hang on a minute, this might not be such a 318 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 2: good idea. What if banning kids on social media actually 319 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 2: stops them getting the help they need for the problems 320 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 2: that exposing them to social media actually causes in the 321 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 2: first place. I'm not quite sure if I get that logic, 322 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 2: But anyway, we always bring you the real story, on 323 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 2: the real story, the clues in the name. And to 324 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 2: sort this all out, I've got in today it's our 325 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: special guest, someone who has literally written the book on 326 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: this subject. She's a clinical psychologist. Her name, ominously enough, 327 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 2: is doctor Einstein. That instills me with a huge amount 328 00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 2: of faith and hope. Danielle Einstein, author of Raising Anxiety, 329 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 2: Our Good Intentions, are backfiring on our children and how 330 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 2: to fix it. Welcome to the real story. How are you? 331 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, thank you, thanks for having me. 332 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: It's an absolute pleasure. This is an issue that I 333 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: think every parent sort of instinctively feels is something that 334 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 2: needs to be acted on. I think most parents, overwhelmingly, 335 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 2: I know I do. Everyone I speak to, teachers, principles 336 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 2: all seem to think this is a no brainer. Tell 337 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 2: us why in your view, You're one of one hundred 338 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 2: and twenty experts who has supported this measure, But that 339 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 2: has come after more than one hundred experts and other groups, 340 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: mental health groups have said, hang on a minute, maybe 341 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 2: this is not a good idea. We should do something else. Firstly, 342 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: why is this important? Why do we need a ban 343 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 2: on social media platforms or some of them, at least for. 344 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 3: Kids, Because kids are being derailed in so many different 345 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 3: ways us, particularly under the age of sixteen, and it's 346 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 3: actually almost a crisis point for mental health for these 347 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 3: children and young adolescents. And we are seeing the problems 348 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 3: in absolute droves, with the big problem being that kids 349 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 3: have a lot of trouble once they start to go 350 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 3: down the vortex getting back out of it. And it's 351 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 3: in part because of the school communities and the friendships 352 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 3: and the way that mistakes just spread like wildfire. 353 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: So talk us through. I suppose a scenario. You actually 354 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 2: see kids, you treat kids who are suffering from anxiety 355 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: and depression because of, among other things, social media. How 356 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: does it sort of work? I mean, I think anyone 357 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 2: who's been on social media can see that it can 358 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 2: be a sewer. But it's also kind of it's darkly addictive, 359 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 2: isn't it. Because if everyone's having a go at you 360 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 2: on social media, especially if it's your peer group, then 361 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 2: even if you sort of pull away from it, you 362 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,239 Speaker 2: kind of know what's happening, and so it's almost like 363 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 2: you're drawn back into it to see if it's stopped, 364 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 2: to see if it's gone away, to see if it's 365 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: turned around, and then of course when it hasn't, that 366 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 2: just redoubles the problem and it sort of creates this 367 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 2: almost like a gambler chasing his debts. Is that something? 368 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: Oh that's not one that I've picked up on? 369 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: Actually, okay, tell. 370 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: Me in testingly enough. 371 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 3: One of the things that I am very concerned about 372 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 3: is actually the amount of time that gets lost on 373 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 3: social media, So you go down, and yes, your mood 374 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 3: might be down because you're comparing yourself with other people. 375 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 3: Other people you know are just doing better than you. 376 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: Let's say someone else has got a podcast. Guess that's 377 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 3: better than me, And all of a sudden you're thinking, 378 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 3: I'm not keeping up and that makes you feel a 379 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 3: bit inadequate. 380 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 1: And then what do you do. 381 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 3: Your mood dips and you go to some other escape 382 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 3: to try and lift your mood. Now that might be 383 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 3: other people, or it could be just binge watching. 384 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 2: Gotcha, Got You? So there's two because there's two sort 385 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 2: of aspects of this. One is that there have been 386 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: kids who have been bullied to the point of suicide 387 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 2: on social media, So I guess that's that really sort 388 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 2: of acute sort of vortex that I was talking about. 389 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 2: And then there's the other kind of one where the 390 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 2: amount of time that is spent and I suppose it's 391 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: the Instagram phenomenon where everyone else seems to have the 392 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 2: perfect life, and then you suddenly think about your life 393 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 2: and that makes you anxious. Are you seeing both of 394 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 2: those cases in your treatment? 395 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,719 Speaker 3: That and more, there's probably about twenty different ways that 396 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 3: you can go down different problems for your mental health 397 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 3: on social media. 398 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 2: And is this something I suppose that has gotten worse 399 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 2: in the last sort of decad decade and a half 400 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 2: with the meteoric rise of social media is or is 401 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 2: this just an old problem that's taken on a new form. 402 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 3: Now, it's definitely gotten worse as social media has gotten 403 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 3: more advanced and better able to hold everyone's attention. 404 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 2: So it's not what I suppose other people pushing back 405 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,360 Speaker 2: would say, say, Well, these are just you know, problems 406 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: that have existed forever and they're just taking place on 407 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 2: a new platform in a new format. This is actually 408 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 2: you have seen these things get exponentially worse. 409 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 410 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 3: I mean every adult can look around and young adult 411 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 3: knows how they get pulled into picking up their phone 412 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 3: and then just checking whether you know, people have responded 413 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 3: to them, whether people you know, what do people think 414 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 3: of their opinion, what's happening, what's interesting, and those notifications. 415 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 3: The thing that we have to think about with social 416 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 3: media is how it reaches out to grab you and 417 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 3: pull you in, and it's it's it's that lift that 418 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 3: it gives gives you that you're looking for and real 419 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 3: life isn't necessarily going to give it to you all 420 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 3: the time. 421 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: In fact, most of the time, we've got to. 422 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 2: Put a lot of effort in and no one likes well, 423 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: people do like me, but you know, no one goes 424 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: around in real life, you know, like pointing out you 425 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 2: go like like like like. And yet this entire new 426 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 2: kind of status similar, this entire new measurement system, this 427 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 2: entire new benchmark for how good you are you're worth 428 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 2: as a person, has just suddenly arisen. You know, in 429 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 2: the last few years of hundreds of thousands of years 430 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: of human existence. Maybe we're just not why to cope 431 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 2: with this literally, physiologically and psychologically human beings aren't ready 432 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 2: for this. 433 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 3: Well, yes, I think that is correct, because we are 434 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 3: starting to see some changes in your development for people 435 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 3: that use their technology more, including social media. But one 436 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 3: thing i'd point out to you is, at the age 437 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 3: of thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, we've really got to think about 438 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 3: when you're trying to find new things that you might 439 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 3: enjoy or explore and you want to find ways to 440 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 3: pass time and feel good about yourself, do you need 441 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 3: to have a performative element, Do you need other people 442 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 3: to watch your mistakes or alternatively, to be saying, oh, 443 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 3: it's really great that you've gone out fishing with your dad, 444 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 3: or you look great in that outfit, or those sorts 445 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 3: of things. They're transforming the reason why someone is participating 446 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 3: in an activity. 447 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 2: So not only is it damaging, and again we're talking 448 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: about a whole spectrum here, from intense bullying that can 449 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 2: lead to and we've seen the horrible headlines which I 450 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 2: can't to look at, but you know, the kids are 451 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 2: actually committing suicide because the bullying they're experiencing on social 452 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 2: media right through to sort of more sort of general 453 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: anxiety about how popular kids are and validation of the 454 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 2: things that they're doing, right through to people seeing you know, 455 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 2: other people on social media and feeling a bit jelly 456 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 2: in the belly. All these things aren't just constricted or 457 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,479 Speaker 2: restricted to that period of your life, though, are they, 458 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 2: Because as you said that adolescence is when you you know, obviously, 459 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 2: when you're going from being a child to being an adult, 460 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 2: and if something gets in the way and derails you 461 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: and sets you off in another direction or prevents you 462 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 2: from going in a direction you would otherwise go in, 463 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 2: that has an impact for the rest of your life, 464 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: doesn't it well. 465 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 3: I think the problem with social media is the fact 466 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 3: that it poisons all the other real life friendships around you. 467 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 3: And it also, even if it doesn't poison every single 468 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 3: one of them, it draws you to this easy option 469 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 3: to make yourself feel good in the moment. And I 470 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 3: think we're all deceived that that easy option is a 471 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 3: good way for supporting mental health. And that's what I 472 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 3: want people to question. It's not good to be drawn 473 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 3: out of tricky situations. It's really important to face them 474 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 3: and realize you're okay. It's really important to get those 475 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 3: small mini moments where someone just smiles at you as 476 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 3: you walk past. 477 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 2: So even at the most kind of benign level, it's 478 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 2: replacing genuine human relationships and genuine and sort of genuine 479 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 2: human contact with a sort of superficial or almost synthetic relationship. 480 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 3: It's not that they might be really authentic relationships, right, 481 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 3: but they still cannot replace real life practical support. And 482 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 3: even in those studies that look at social support that's 483 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 3: achieved through social media, if you look really hard at 484 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 3: the detail in the study, see that a measure which 485 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 3: says it's measuring social support is asking whether the other 486 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 3: person's happy to come by and bring your medicine. 487 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: Right. 488 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 3: So there's a component in these scales that talk about 489 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 3: social support, right, which is misleading. 490 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 2: Gotcha. And so we've sort of laid out I suppose 491 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 2: the kind of the sort of myriad ways in which 492 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 2: social media causes harm to young people. Why then, are 493 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 2: there these organizations which are supposedly also expert in this 494 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: area and supposedly also have experience in this area. Why 495 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 2: do you think they are pushing back and saying, well, 496 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 2: hang on a minute, you know, is it valid to say, 497 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 2: for example, that kids who might struggle to form relationships 498 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 2: in the real world find that online relationships fill that 499 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 2: void for example, A Is that a credible reason not 500 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 2: to proceed with these restrictions? 501 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 3: Not in my view, No, Because so I think what's 502 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 3: happened is, first of all, you've got to understand where 503 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 3: everybody is coming from. 504 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: Okay. 505 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 3: So researchers do tend to like their own research and 506 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 3: want to talk about their own research, and we get 507 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 3: rewarded for disseminating our research. 508 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: Okay, So we want to look at the impact to the. 509 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: Dere's always the impact of social media on the people 510 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 2: researching social media because they're getting their own biases reinforced. 511 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 3: That's right, But every single piece of research has limitations. 512 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 3: And if there's a study that's been done during COVID 513 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 3: asking people what their top worries are, you have to 514 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 3: interpret it as well. That was during COVID, okay, And 515 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 3: from my point of view when I read and I 516 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 3: have now since this, well actually probably since fines came 517 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 3: into students' hands, I have been reading almost every article 518 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 3: I can get my hands on as it comes out 519 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 3: to stay up to date with what is happening with 520 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 3: technology use and social media use and its impact in 521 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 3: mental health. And I'm always looking to find the faults, 522 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 3: and i email the authors to ask, oh, hang on 523 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 3: a second, what's going on. 524 00:28:59,120 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: In this study? 525 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 3: Like you asked students to leave out time spent interacting 526 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 3: with friends and family in the early days of Facebook, 527 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 3: say when that was the main use, And I'd get 528 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 3: an answer saying, well, actually, yes, that wasn't my intent, 529 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 3: But the database that I used that question did say, 530 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 3: please let's leave out please leave out the amount of time. 531 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 3: So the problem is we've got these really imprecise measures 532 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 3: that researchers are using. 533 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: In part. 534 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 2: So these are well intentioned organizations and perhaps no doubt 535 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 2: expert in other ways, but they're being misled by their 536 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 2: own kind of blind spots in the data. Which again, 537 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 2: as as someone who deals a lot in politics, we 538 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: know that. You know, you can get a poll that 539 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 2: pretty much tells you anything you want. You can get 540 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 2: modeling that pretty much comes back to you with the 541 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: model you want to justify your pre existing sort of 542 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: thesis or hypothesis. And that's happening in you think that's 543 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 2: happening in this space one hundred percent. 544 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 3: And that's what I went to have a look and 545 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 3: see what's been submitted to the Government for the Joint 546 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 3: Select Committee into Social Media in Australian society, and I 547 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 3: started to go through all that because I couldn't understand 548 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 3: how we could have such different opinions, and in fact 549 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 3: I started to wonder whether possibly I could be wrong 550 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 3: when I read what had been written. 551 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 2: It's one of those things I suppose you see beyond 552 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: the data. You see through that because you're actually dealing 553 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 2: with the kids firsthand who come to you. And I 554 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 2: know that when phones were bound in schools in New 555 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: South Wales. You know other people who said, I know 556 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: this isn't necessarily they're a vital tool and we shouldn't 557 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 2: do this. And since the band came in, every teacher 558 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: I've spoken to, every principle I've spoken to, and we've 559 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 2: done big sort of investigation that there's been out to 560 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 2: visit the schools have said. The difference is, I mean, 561 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 2: you don't need data, you don't need a poll to 562 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 2: see it. They are seeing it in the playgrounds, they 563 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 2: are seeing it in the classrooms. The kids are more attentive, 564 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 2: they are playing more, They're doing more physical exercise, more 565 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 2: physical play, more outdoor play. They're engaging with their peers 566 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 2: you know the sound or they've got friends. Their friendships 567 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 2: are stronger, they're having more fun, they're paying more attention 568 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 2: in the classroom. And the one week spot that they 569 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 2: see in the band is not in the band at 570 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 2: the schools. It's in the fact that the kids are 571 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 2: still accessing the devices at home and doom scrolling social 572 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 2: media at home, and that they're then therefore coming to 573 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 2: school a bit tired, and that's where the attennement is. 574 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 2: But I mean, it's everyone I speak to on the 575 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 2: front line says the same thing that this is a 576 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 2: no brainer. 577 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it all comes down to how we handle uncertainty, Joe. 578 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 3: And that's something that I've been researching since twenty eleven 579 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 3: and is fundamental to my understanding of psychology and anxiety. 580 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 3: And it's basically that if you really don't like uncertainty, 581 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 3: you have a greater number of psychological problems, all right. 582 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 3: And what was interesting when. 583 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 2: Finds that is absolutely yes, I like everything to be 584 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 2: the same all the time. 585 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 3: And so I started work in this area because when 586 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 3: I was treating client, so I realized I had to 587 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 3: get them to face uncertainty in order to get better 588 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 3: for anxiety. And then all of a sudden, everyone was 589 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 3: giving these phones where they didn't have to handle any 590 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 3: uncertainty anymore. They could text their parent immediately, they could 591 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 3: look up the answer immediately, which, interestingly enough for health 592 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 3: anxiety and for a lot of anxiety disorders, is a 593 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 3: massive problem. 594 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 2: This is way more meta than I thought, So it's 595 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 2: actually it's actually so social media provides a very kind 596 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 2: of I suppose black and white instant gratification, instant sort 597 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: of a conflict resolution spectrum where everything is either really 598 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,719 Speaker 2: really good or really really bad. And now that now 599 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 2: that you've explained it, and I'm saying it actually makes 600 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 2: perfect sense because that's exactly what's happened in politics as well. 601 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 2: It's become instantly polarized into good versus evil, and no 602 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 2: one can agree who's on either two sides this, ye, people, 603 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 2: Donald Trump is the Messiah, is the second Coming. He's 604 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 2: the perfect body of good to others, He's a hitler, 605 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 2: he's a fascist. That is pure evil, and there is 606 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 2: nothing in the middle. And that has all been driven 607 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 2: by social media. That and again, I feel like I'm 608 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: having an epiphany, but that applies to everybody as well. 609 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 2: So suddenly kids who are living in the gray area, 610 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 2: like we all are, are resorting and using social media 611 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 2: as a tool to be told things are instantly okay 612 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 2: or instantly not okay, and therefore growing up without being 613 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 2: able to develop the skills they need to resolve those 614 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 2: issues themselves in the real world. Oh my god, exactly. 615 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: And that's what our book is all about. From every 616 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: single angle. 617 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 2: Okay, well, my mind has been officially blown. I've achieved 618 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,239 Speaker 2: a higher level of consciousness already, so I don't think 619 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 2: we can really come back from that. Doctor Danielle Einstein, 620 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 2: you are the co author of Raising Anxiety with doctor 621 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: Judith Locke, who is a parenting expert. This book tells parents, teachers, 622 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 2: educates anyone who deals with kids how they can help 623 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 2: resolve these issues. It's incredibly informative, insightful and enlightening. Thank 624 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 2: you so much for joining us on The Real Story. 625 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. 626 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 2: And all we have time for this week. Thank you 627 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 2: so much for your company. It's been an absolute pleasure. 628 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,479 Speaker 2: If you like what you're hear, leave us a review 629 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 2: and a rating. If you don't like what you here, 630 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 2: just keep your use to yourself. Don't need to tell 631 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 2: anybody if you want us to look into anything. If 632 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 2: you've got any questions, any feedback, just want to say hi. 633 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 2: You can email us at The Real Story at novapodcasts 634 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 2: dot com dot au. You can also slide into my 635 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 2: dms on the gram. My handle is at Joe Underscore 636 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,240 Speaker 2: Hildebrand on the IG. You can also read my columns 637 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 2: every Monday and Saturday in the Daily Telegraph or any 638 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 2: news court masterthead you should choose to purchase and we'll 639 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 2: see you next week. Take you