WEBVTT - Why SAS troops used wrong rules of engagement

0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:09.800
<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM.

0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:13.280
<v Speaker 1>The Bread and Inquiry uncovered shocking allegations of war crimes

0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:16.960
<v Speaker 1>committed by Australian soldiers in Afghanistan, but there was one

0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:21.320
<v Speaker 1>failing of Australian soldiers that wasn't investigated. According to documents

0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:25.200
<v Speaker 1>and interviews, some Australian soldiers in Afghanistan used foreign rules

0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:28.639
<v Speaker 1>of engagement in combat, rules they weren't trained in or

0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:31.800
<v Speaker 1>permitted to use, and the use of these rules may

0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:33.920
<v Speaker 1>have resulted in the killing of a large number of

0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:38.400
<v Speaker 1>unarmed Afghans who would not otherwise have been killed today.

0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:41.960
<v Speaker 1>It contributed to the Saturday Paper Ben Mcalvey on how

0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:51.680
<v Speaker 1>and when Australian's special forces are allowed to kill It's Friday,

0:00:52.159 --> 0:01:01.160
<v Speaker 1>February fourteen. Ben, Thanks for joining us pleasure. I wanted

0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:05.240
<v Speaker 1>to start in twenty twelve in a village called Sola

0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.520
<v Speaker 1>in Afghanistan. Can you tell me a bit about what

0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:09.160
<v Speaker 1>happened there?

0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:09.480
<v Speaker 2>So?

0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.600
<v Speaker 3>There was an SAS raid in Sola in August twenty twelve.

0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.080
<v Speaker 3>The reason for that raid was because an Afghan sergeant

0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:19.119
<v Speaker 3>who had been trained by some Australian forces had turned

0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:22.600
<v Speaker 3>his gun on his trainers and killed three Australian soldiers.

0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.320
<v Speaker 4>A rogue Afghan soldier named heck Matula had killed three

0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:32.400
<v Speaker 4>of their comrades. Special Forces soldiers from two Squadron SAS

0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.440
<v Speaker 4>were going from village to village searching for him.

0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:40.280
<v Speaker 3>So heck Matula, this zabad or sergeant who shot these

0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.360
<v Speaker 3>Australians and ran away. Some intelligence popped up that he

0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:45.160
<v Speaker 3>was in this village of Solo, which is in the

0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.880
<v Speaker 3>Tarankaut Bowl, and it was you know, poor my brick,

0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:52.640
<v Speaker 3>like everywhere else in Orozgan where the Australians were primarily operating.

0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.520
<v Speaker 3>And also it was a place of mixed loyalties, which

0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.240
<v Speaker 3>was true of most places where the Australians would end

0:01:59.320 --> 0:01:59.640
<v Speaker 3>up going.

0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.240
<v Speaker 4>Two squadrons swept into the village of Solar looking for

0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.800
<v Speaker 4>heck Matulla. There they focused on the local mosque.

0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:09.680
<v Speaker 3>So the SAS was sent out almost immediately on a

0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.760
<v Speaker 3>kill capture mission. Heck Matula. He was raised on this

0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:16.000
<v Speaker 3>thing called the Joint Prioritize Effects List, which was basically

0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:18.840
<v Speaker 3>a massive kill capture list across the country where if

0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:20.760
<v Speaker 3>they found those people, they would kill them or capture them.

0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.800
<v Speaker 3>He became a priority target THEESAS was sent off and

0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.639
<v Speaker 3>then they went to Solar and tried to find him.

0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.560
<v Speaker 1>So they tried to find him what happened in the

0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:31.800
<v Speaker 1>solo when they got.

0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:33.400
<v Speaker 3>There, they didn't find him and they didn't find the

0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.280
<v Speaker 3>evidence of him, but they did detain a number of

0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.800
<v Speaker 3>Afghans and one of the people that they detained in

0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:44.640
<v Speaker 3>the official reporting, grabbed an Australian soldier's gun. They wrestled

0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.600
<v Speaker 3>and then the Australian shot this man dead, and then

0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:51.760
<v Speaker 3>the Australian SAS killed another man. There were two soldiers

0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:54.560
<v Speaker 3>that were involved in this killing where the official line

0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.919
<v Speaker 3>was that they had seen this man with an icon

0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:02.760
<v Speaker 3>which is a handheld radio, that he'd been reporting troop movements.

0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:06.160
<v Speaker 3>So they were killed. And these men were father and sign.

0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.679
<v Speaker 3>They were the Mallers, the two Malas of this village.

0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.720
<v Speaker 1>So you've been looking into the operation. What was it

0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:13.360
<v Speaker 1>that stood out to you about the mission?

0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.280
<v Speaker 3>So one of the interesting things about this mission is

0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.320
<v Speaker 3>that they sent someone in to investigate this because this

0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:21.360
<v Speaker 3>mission and these killings had become a bit of a

0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:25.200
<v Speaker 3>political hot potato because Hamid Karzai, the president of Afghanistan,

0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.600
<v Speaker 3>had complained about this mission and about these killings. He'd

0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.280
<v Speaker 3>complained to the Australian Prime Minister and the ambassador until

0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:33.040
<v Speaker 3>there've been a bit of media interest, so they sent

0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:35.840
<v Speaker 3>in a brigadier to do an investigation about what had

0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:41.160
<v Speaker 3>happened here, and in interviewing the SAS soldiers, the SAS

0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.920
<v Speaker 3>said that they had shot these people under IF rules

0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:50.840
<v Speaker 3>of engagements. So ISAF is the multinational force that came

0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.760
<v Speaker 3>to support the Australian government, So it's basically all of

0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:56.640
<v Speaker 3>the foreigners that were over there. The Ish rule's engagement

0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.440
<v Speaker 3>and the Australian rules are engagement are classified, but there

0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.280
<v Speaker 3>are parts of those rules of engagement that I can

0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:06.440
<v Speaker 3>talk about. So the difference between the Australian rules of

0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.800
<v Speaker 3>engagement ic rules of Engagement as they're understood by the

0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:15.360
<v Speaker 3>SAS was that you can shoot someone who demonstrates hostile

0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:19.719
<v Speaker 3>intent rather than having committed a hostile act. So the

0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:25.160
<v Speaker 3>standard for leffal force was directly participating in hostilities. It

0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.360
<v Speaker 3>was accepted that the ICF rules of engagement were stricter

0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:31.000
<v Speaker 3>than the Australian rules of engagement, but the way that

0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.760
<v Speaker 3>the Australians applied those ICEF ruals of engagement that they

0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.360
<v Speaker 3>weren't trained in then it gave them a little bit

0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.720
<v Speaker 3>more leeway. The way that it had been applied by

0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.479
<v Speaker 3>these guys was that you just had to have hostile intent.

0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.480
<v Speaker 3>If we thought that you were acting in a hostile manner,

0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:49.120
<v Speaker 3>then we could legally target you. And then these investigators

0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:53.200
<v Speaker 3>found that the entire rotation, that Rotation eighteen, had been

0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:57.360
<v Speaker 3>using these ic rules of engagement and actually they were

0:04:57.400 --> 0:04:59.720
<v Speaker 3>not meant to be using those rules of engagement. And

0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.960
<v Speaker 3>the brigadier called this a systemic failure.

0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.160
<v Speaker 1>So the soldiers have cited using ISAF rules of engagement

0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:10.599
<v Speaker 1>in the field. You said, there's a different standard was

0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:14.359
<v Speaker 1>to watch constitutes hostile intent? What does that look like

0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:16.440
<v Speaker 1>in practice when it's applied.

0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:18.800
<v Speaker 3>Well, there are multiple ways in which you can target

0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.680
<v Speaker 3>the enemy, but the primary way is in self defense.

0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.000
<v Speaker 3>You see them acting hostily in front of you, and

0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:29.279
<v Speaker 3>then you can react and shoot them. Threats, however, don't

0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.919
<v Speaker 3>just look like somebody raising a gun at you, varying ammunition,

0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.039
<v Speaker 3>you know, sending information as to where your position is going,

0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:39.480
<v Speaker 3>and getting help, you know, things like that. Then that

0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:43.800
<v Speaker 3>could potentially be somebody that is directly participating in hostilities

0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.320
<v Speaker 3>as well, and that's where the nuance is with rules

0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:50.400
<v Speaker 3>of engagement. So with the ISAF rules of engagement, it

0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:55.240
<v Speaker 3>seemed that the Australian sas basically applied their understanding of

0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:59.000
<v Speaker 3>what hostility looked like or had looked like previously, and

0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:02.000
<v Speaker 3>then applying that to a circumstance. So they had seen

0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.600
<v Speaker 3>a lot of Afghans running towards the river and getting

0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.039
<v Speaker 3>caged weapons and then coming back and attacking them. So

0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.240
<v Speaker 3>if they came to a compound of interest and they

0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.360
<v Speaker 3>saw someone running towards the river, then they may consider

0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.839
<v Speaker 3>that to be a hostile act. But it's likely that

0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.360
<v Speaker 3>something like that would not have been allowed under Australian

0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.600
<v Speaker 3>rules of engagement. The best example of that is in

0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:24.560
<v Speaker 3>the report that I cited. They said that patrol reports

0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:28.120
<v Speaker 3>would come back to legal offices and officers and they

0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:30.520
<v Speaker 3>said that they had killed people who had just seen

0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:34.040
<v Speaker 3>running away, and the legal officer said, you know, this

0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.480
<v Speaker 3>really doesn't cut the mustard, so please, can you please

0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.320
<v Speaker 3>rewrite this report with more descriptors so it's more in

0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:42.520
<v Speaker 3>line with Australian rules of engagement. So that's what it happened.

0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:45.560
<v Speaker 1>So why were the soldiers following rules that they weren't

0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.360
<v Speaker 1>actually training. They were trained in Australian rules of engagement.

0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:52.120
<v Speaker 1>Why are they practicing in if rules of engagement if

0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:53.480
<v Speaker 1>they're not trained in those.

0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.560
<v Speaker 3>Rules, Well, it certainly looks like the Australian soldiers thought

0:06:56.640 --> 0:06:58.919
<v Speaker 3>that they were allowed to use these rules of engagement.

0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:02.800
<v Speaker 3>And the thing that was really particularly interesting for me

0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:05.760
<v Speaker 3>I had written a book about the kill capture program,

0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.760
<v Speaker 3>and basically that's what the ESAs did primarily in Afghanistan.

0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.320
<v Speaker 3>They come into country, there was multiple lists of people

0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:18.440
<v Speaker 3>who were bad guys essentially as far as they were concerned.

0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:21.040
<v Speaker 3>One of the lists had six thousand people, and then

0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:22.960
<v Speaker 3>they just went out there and did mission after mission,

0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:27.360
<v Speaker 3>either capturing or killing them. One of the major issues

0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.440
<v Speaker 3>with these twenty twelve killings and the report that I

0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:33.760
<v Speaker 3>found after that, was that normally you have a very

0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:38.240
<v Speaker 3>strict and codified understanding of when you can employ your

0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:42.760
<v Speaker 3>weapons system, whereas in this instance, the sas were using

0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.720
<v Speaker 3>their own understanding of what hostile intents and hostile acts were.

0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:48.960
<v Speaker 3>So it wasn't something that was written down. It was

0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.600
<v Speaker 3>just them saying, we've been in Afghanistan for a long time,

0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:53.960
<v Speaker 3>we know what the enemy looks like. I can tell

0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.000
<v Speaker 3>when someone who's running away is a bad guy, so

0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.080
<v Speaker 3>I can shoot him because I can make that distinction.

0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:11.120
<v Speaker 1>After the break. Who knew this was happening? Ben, There's

0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.640
<v Speaker 1>now evidence that some Australian soldiers in Afghanistan used foreign

0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:18.360
<v Speaker 1>rules and engagement. That's a way to justify killings. Did

0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.400
<v Speaker 1>the bosses know this was happening. It's a question of

0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.560
<v Speaker 1>which bosses knew. But some bosses almost certainly or undoubtedly

0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:26.440
<v Speaker 1>knew that this was happening. I mean the fact that

0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:29.680
<v Speaker 1>these patrol reports were being changed. They had to be

0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.480
<v Speaker 1>changed by someone. They were being sent back to the soldiers.

0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.360
<v Speaker 1>So as soon as you see a report and it

0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:37.679
<v Speaker 1>shows that the rules of engagement that were being used

0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:39.520
<v Speaker 1>and not the ones that you should be using, then

0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:41.520
<v Speaker 1>you are aware of that and you have an obligation

0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:43.880
<v Speaker 1>to report that. But you weren't reporting that. You were

0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:45.480
<v Speaker 1>sending it back to the soldiers, and it was this

0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.280
<v Speaker 1>sort of go along to get a long attitude. The

0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.560
<v Speaker 1>Breading Inquiry was supposed to be a sweeping investigation into

0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:55.160
<v Speaker 1>misconduct and alleged crimes by Australian forces. Did they look

0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:55.559
<v Speaker 1>into this?

0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:56.880
<v Speaker 3>They didn't look into.

0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:02.840
<v Speaker 2>This, turning to the Inspector General's report. He found none

0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:07.000
<v Speaker 2>of the alleged unlawful killings were described as being in

0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:11.480
<v Speaker 2>the heat of battle. None were alleged to have occurred

0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:16.600
<v Speaker 2>in circumstances in which the intent of the perpetrator was unclear,

0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:19.359
<v Speaker 2>confused or mistaken.

0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:21.360
<v Speaker 3>This is one of the things that I put to defense.

0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.719
<v Speaker 3>I said, in the Breton Report, they say that the

0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:27.760
<v Speaker 3>Australians had a good understanding of which rules of engagements

0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:30.400
<v Speaker 3>they should be using and they applied those. But it

0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:32.560
<v Speaker 3>seems that you know this report that I've seen that

0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.600
<v Speaker 3>was a twenty thirteen report calling this a systemic failure.

0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:37.080
<v Speaker 3>This would have been a report that would have been

0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.760
<v Speaker 3>available to Paul Burretton and his team. So it's something

0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.360
<v Speaker 3>that should have been flagged in the Breton Report but wasn't.

0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:43.480
<v Speaker 1>Do we know why.

0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:44.280
<v Speaker 3>We don't know why.

0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.000
<v Speaker 1>And as you've been reporting on this, what do you

0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:50.000
<v Speaker 1>think the skirting of these rules says about Australia's role

0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:51.319
<v Speaker 1>in the war in Afghanistan.

0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:53.960
<v Speaker 3>I don't know whether it's a case of skirting the rules.

0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:55.560
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it puts me in the mind of this

0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:58.319
<v Speaker 3>quote from the Cromfort's report. So when Samantha Cromforts did

0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.480
<v Speaker 3>her report. There was an officer who often of quote saying,

0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.040
<v Speaker 3>you know, special forces, you've got to love them like

0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.560
<v Speaker 3>brothers and watch them like children. So if these guys

0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:10.240
<v Speaker 3>think that they should be using or allowed to use

0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.679
<v Speaker 3>this ICA rules of engagement that they weren't trained on

0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:15.800
<v Speaker 3>and that their legal officers weren't briefing them on, then

0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.000
<v Speaker 3>it's not exactly their failure if they're using this rule

0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:20.640
<v Speaker 3>of engagement in the way that they thought that it

0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.720
<v Speaker 3>could be used. But what it does say I think

0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:26.520
<v Speaker 3>about our operations in Afghanistan is that we did get

0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.000
<v Speaker 3>to a point where there was a maximalist attitude in

0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:32.360
<v Speaker 3>regards to kinetic activity. So there was a lot of

0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.520
<v Speaker 3>shooting and a lot of killing that probably didn't need

0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:35.080
<v Speaker 3>to happen.

0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.160
<v Speaker 1>What is the Department Offense sit to you about they're

0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:39.079
<v Speaker 1>doing to address this.

0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:43.280
<v Speaker 3>I would be surprised if they're addressing this at all.

0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:48.080
<v Speaker 3>My understanding is that they generally don't talk about rules

0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.000
<v Speaker 3>of engagement with the media, But they did send me

0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.600
<v Speaker 3>a line saying that, you know, Burton report had noted

0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:58.880
<v Speaker 3>that rules of engagement changed temporarily and from a geolocation

0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.720
<v Speaker 3>perspective suggesting that they were allowed to use these ICE

0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.440
<v Speaker 3>rules of engagement. This report that I got from twenty

0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.400
<v Speaker 3>thirteen does not say that. It says that the Australians

0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:11.400
<v Speaker 3>were obliged the Essays included to use Australian rules of engagement.

0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:15.320
<v Speaker 1>The Essays has suffered huge reputational damage from this, but

0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.520
<v Speaker 1>also from the findings and the Bread inquiry. What impact

0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.120
<v Speaker 1>has that had on our special forces capability?

0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.199
<v Speaker 3>I mean there's been two erosions of capability, and one's

0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.360
<v Speaker 3>post Afghanistan. As you said, there's been this reputational damage.

0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:31.840
<v Speaker 3>It's been difficult to deploy Australian sas, especially in theaters

0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.360
<v Speaker 3>where it's sort of primarily a Muslim population. That's been

0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:38.440
<v Speaker 3>an issue. A lot of soldiers have decided that they

0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:39.840
<v Speaker 3>just don't want to be in the army anymore. So,

0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.040
<v Speaker 3>you know, you invest a million dollars a year into

0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:43.839
<v Speaker 3>these guys. You know they got these twenty year careers.

0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.160
<v Speaker 3>You've got twenty million dollars behind a corporal or sergeant.

0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:48.320
<v Speaker 3>Then he just decides to walk away because this feels

0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:50.840
<v Speaker 3>like he's being treated poorly. So you have that erosion,

0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:54.320
<v Speaker 3>but then you have this other erosion. That happened over Afghanistan.

0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:58.120
<v Speaker 3>Because theesas they're meant to be, you know, all of

0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:00.000
<v Speaker 3>the cliches, the tip of the spear, the greatest soul,

0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:02.880
<v Speaker 3>they're also meant to be the Swiss army knives. And

0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:04.960
<v Speaker 3>in a time when they were meant to be sort

0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.720
<v Speaker 3>of migrating over to being able to do other things

0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.959
<v Speaker 3>gray role intelligence gathering, they were being used as basically

0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.240
<v Speaker 3>an American fungible force. They were just doing these kill

0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.400
<v Speaker 3>capture missions. They were doing the same thing over and

0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:18.719
<v Speaker 3>over again against a force that was not a near

0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.920
<v Speaker 3>peer opponent, and so their martial skills went down in

0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.439
<v Speaker 3>that period as well. So you've had these two instances

0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:26.920
<v Speaker 3>where we've had a lessening of capacity.

0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:29.960
<v Speaker 1>What are the chances of any of us getting to

0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.000
<v Speaker 1>the bottom of this as to what actually happened, what

0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:32.920
<v Speaker 1>rules were applied.

0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.720
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think that if you want to understand any

0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:38.920
<v Speaker 3>one part of Afghanistan, then you kind of have to

0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.240
<v Speaker 3>understand the whole thing. And I think the only way

0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:44.600
<v Speaker 3>that we can understand the whole thing is it's not

0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.480
<v Speaker 3>through defamation. It's not even through murder cases as the

0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.880
<v Speaker 3>one coming up with Oliver Schultz. It's a raw commission.

0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.080
<v Speaker 3>You need to have a body with subpoena powers. You

0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:55.680
<v Speaker 3>need to be able to get to the offices, you

0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.280
<v Speaker 3>need to be able to get to the politicians, and

0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.000
<v Speaker 3>you need to be able to talk to the soldiers

0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:03.120
<v Speaker 3>in an open, closed environment. So if you think, as

0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.280
<v Speaker 3>this report suggests that there were systemic failures, that you know,

0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:10.079
<v Speaker 3>officers had done things that sort of had allowed or

0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:14.640
<v Speaker 3>fostered a circumstance in which unnecessary killings happened, I think

0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:16.720
<v Speaker 3>the only way that we would get justice is through

0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:18.520
<v Speaker 3>something like a royal commission.

0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:22.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, Ben, thank you so much for your reporting and

0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:34.800
<v Speaker 1>thank you so much for your time. Thanks also within use. Today,

0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.520
<v Speaker 1>nurses have gathered outside New South Wales Parliament to protest

0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.800
<v Speaker 1>hate speech after two nurses were filmed threatening to harm

0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:46.720
<v Speaker 1>Israeli patients. New South Wales and Midwives Association Assistant General

0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Secretary Michael Waits s his members were horrified and devastated

0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:54.760
<v Speaker 1>by the footage. Meanwhile, the New South Wales Police Commissioner

0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:58.080
<v Speaker 1>Karen Webb says police have spoken to the Israeli influencer

0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.319
<v Speaker 1>who captured the video, who has agreed to say apply

0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.000
<v Speaker 1>an unedited version. The investigation is ongoing and the nurses

0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:07.880
<v Speaker 1>have been stood down and communities in Western Australias Pilbury

0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:12.079
<v Speaker 1>region are bracing for impact as tropical cyclone Zelia intensifies

0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.880
<v Speaker 1>to a category five system, bringing winds of up to

0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.920
<v Speaker 1>two hundred and ninety kilometers an hour. Authorities of closed schools,

0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.960
<v Speaker 1>highways and the port Headling Port, while emergency services prepare

0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:27.120
<v Speaker 1>for widespread flooding and damage. Evacuation centers have been set

0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.119
<v Speaker 1>up as residents are worned to expect life threatening additions

0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:36.080
<v Speaker 1>when the cyclone makes landfall. On Friday evening. Seven Am

0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.840
<v Speaker 1>is a daily shave from Schwartz Media and The Saturday Paper.

0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:43.960
<v Speaker 1>It's made by Adigus Basto, Shane Anderson, Chris Dangate, Eric Jensen,

0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:50.440
<v Speaker 1>Ruby Jones, Sarah mcvee, Travis Evans, Zoltenvecho and me Daniel James.

0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:53.240
<v Speaker 1>Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Cogan

0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:57.080
<v Speaker 1>of Envelope AUDEO. We'll be back Monday. Thanks for listening,

0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:03.000
<v Speaker 1>came