1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: Andrew Rule. This is Life and Crimes today. We come 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: to you from a village in Wales, so if the 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: sound quality is not great, I apologize in advance. The 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 1: reason we're doing this is because I happened to be 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: in the UK at the same time that the murder 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: verdict came down in the Eron Pattison mushroom case, and 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: I have to say it is amazing how big that 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: story is in the UK. The BBC World News coverage 9 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: has carried the Eron Patterson trial faithfully most days, and 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: when the verdict came down earlier this week, the BBC 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: and other news services carried the story either at the 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: top of the bulletin or very close to it. It's 13 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: quite an amazingly thorough coverage, and they're throwing to their 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: reporters in more Will, which they describe as a small 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: town in Victoria, and give their viewers the full treatment. 16 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: And people here are very familiar with the case. It's 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: so pervasive here that it's even affected the way that 18 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: news magazines have selected stories. And last weekend, when the 19 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: jury retired to consider its verdict in the Patisan case, 20 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: obviously the guilty verdict. The Sunday Times magazine here ran 21 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: a massive magazine piece not about the mushroom case, but 22 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: about other cases in history where women have poisoned men, 23 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 1: and they selected as their main example a story from 24 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: one hundred years ago in a Hungarian town where a 25 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: group of women got their heads together and decided that 26 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: their husbands were violent, drunken lunatics, which some of them 27 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: obviously were, and under the guidance of a local midwife 28 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: who knew a lot about poisons, they cooked up arsenic 29 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: poisons by boiling up fly paper that is made up 30 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: for poison flies and insects. It was made up in 31 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 1: those days using arsenic and us think it was a 32 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: very common item in household products that they'd use it 33 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: for poisoning rats. It was also used in some tonics 34 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: for livestock. It was relatively easy to get, and the 35 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: fly paper trick was one that was used in Hungary 36 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: and also by poisoners in England and elsewhere. They popped 37 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: the fly paper in boiling water for a certain time 38 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: and then strain it off, and the resulting mixture was 39 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: heavy in arsenic, and they could use it to lace 40 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: the target victims their tea or their coffee, or their whisky. 41 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 2: Or wine or whatever it might be. 42 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: And this group of women led by this midwife, over 43 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: the span of eighteen years from nineteen eleven until nineteen 44 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: twenty nine, they killed at least one hundred men, but 45 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: the real figures might have been higher. Of course, it 46 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: was a time when post mortems were not routine and 47 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: probably not that accurate, and so there were a lot 48 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: of unexplained deaths that were probably put down to heart 49 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: attacks or whatever that went unnoted at the time, But 50 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: the real number of victims in that eighteen year period 51 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: might have been approaching more like three hundred, and so 52 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: we have here somewhat of a history of poisoning of 53 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: men by women who thought it was the easiest way 54 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: to get rid of the men in their life that 55 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: were causing trouble. And this was something that was reasonably 56 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: well known in England back in the Victorian era, when 57 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: there was a spate of poisonings from eighteen sixties onwards, 58 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: often using that same flypaper method of getting hold of 59 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: arsenic or using rat poison that was based on arsenic 60 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: or other poisons that were available on farms and households 61 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: and refining them to get the arsenic so they could 62 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: poison people. None of them, interestingly, seemed to be using 63 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: death cap mushrooms. Obviously, the effect of death cap mushrooms 64 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: was known to people for centuries that people would avoid 65 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: eating them by trial and error, animals and birds and 66 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: everything else fairly careful with what's poison and what's not, 67 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: and people, especially in the country areas, knew from a 68 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: very young age which things were edible and which weren't. 69 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: But it's interesting that death cap mushrooms don't come up 70 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 1: a lot in the literature of poisoning in the way 71 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: that arsenic does. Interestingly, one of the big poisoning cases 72 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: in Victoria back home in Victoria, also involved arsenic. Now, 73 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: this was the case that some of our business will 74 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: recall vaguely, and that's the case of Lorraine Moss, the 75 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: Bendigo housewife who back in the eighties decided to poison 76 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: her husband Johnny. His real name was Leonard Moss. He 77 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: was known by everyone as Johnny, popular figure at the 78 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: local abatars where he worked. He was a meat worker, 79 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: a good guy apparently. I think they had two or 80 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: three daughters. They lived, you know, a quiet life in 81 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: suburban Bendigo. But Lorraine Moss decided that she no longer 82 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: wanted to be with her husband, Johnny, but she didn't 83 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: want to actually go through the routine of divorce or 84 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: things like that. She had started an affair with one 85 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: of his workmates, a guy called Robert White, and her 86 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: way out of this tricky domestic situation was to get 87 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: hold of some poison that was used. I think this 88 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: poison might have been used that the meatworks to kill 89 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: rats or things like that. Anyway, she was able to 90 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: get hold of the poison fairly easily, and she started 91 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: to lace her husband's sandwiches for his lunch with the poison. 92 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: Instead of making his own sandwiches, which would have been wise, 93 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: she had the habit of making them, and she would 94 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: sprinkle this powder in the sandwiches, and it was noticeable 95 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: that Johnny Moss got sicker and sicker. This is about 96 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: eighty two eighty three, and in fact, one day he 97 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,119 Speaker 1: felt sick and he didn't want to eat his lunch. 98 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: A couple of his mates had his lunch instead, and 99 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: they got very sick. In fact, one of them was 100 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: so sick that he couldn't work for months. This is 101 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: how potent this poison was, and Johnny Moss would get 102 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: very sick, and then he would be taken to hospital, 103 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: and Lorraine Moss would make a great show of being 104 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: the concerned wife and all the rest of it. And 105 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: when he was in the hospital he would recover, he 106 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: would get hospital food and hospital care, and she wasn't 107 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: supplying the food anymore to him, and he would gradually 108 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: get better, and he'd come home and he go back 109 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: to work, only to sick him again, because of course 110 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: she would start poisoning his food again. Now this went 111 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: on for I think I said eighteen months, and he 112 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: died in early nineteen eighty four. John Moss's death should 113 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: have really sparked a searching inquest that would have pointed 114 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: to suspicious circumstances and pointed to Lorraine Moss's complicity. But 115 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: a strange thing happened. Lorrain Moss, not a terribly intelligent woman, 116 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: got very lucky for a while. It turned out that 117 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: there was a report made up about the poisoning of 118 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: Johnny Moss at the Austin Hospital. 119 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 2: He'd been sent down there and they'd. 120 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: Done some tests and a report was completed by the 121 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: doctors and other medical which indicated that he'd been poisoned 122 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: with arsening. Now, that report, had it been produced at 123 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: his inquest, would have pointed squarely to Lorraine Moss poisoning 124 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: her husband, and it would have led to charges and 125 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: she would have been prosecuted for murder or manslaughter at 126 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: least homicide back then, back when it all happened in 127 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: the early eighties. But that didn't happen simply because that 128 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: report got lost, and in the absence of the report, 129 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: a very kindly coroner, a coroner took it upon himself 130 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: to say there was no evidence that Lorraine Moss had 131 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: poisoned her husband, despite the fact that he clearly had 132 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: been poisoned by something. 133 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: And so she got away with it, and she in fact. 134 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: Married her lover, Bob White or Robert White, and they 135 00:08:53,320 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: lived happily or unhappily in Bendigo forever after, until about 136 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: twenty years later Lorraine Moss did a silly thing. Lorraine, 137 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: for some strange reason, had it in her head. She 138 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: had this notion that once twenty years had gone past, 139 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: or something like twenty years agne past, that she'd be 140 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: home clear that she couldn't be prosecuted. And she must 141 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: have been thinking about this because she brought it up 142 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: with one of her daughters. Lorraine Moss was talking to her, 143 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: I think her oldest girl, and said something strange about well, 144 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: at least at this stage, I can't be prosecuted over 145 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: your father, or words to that effect, and the daughter said, 146 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: what do you mean. 147 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: She said enough to. 148 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: The daughter to suggest that she had had something to 149 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: do with poisoning the girl's father, Johnny Moss, and the 150 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: daughter took this in and understood what she said, and 151 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: she went to the police because she loved her father, 152 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,119 Speaker 1: as did her sister, and she was shocked and horrified. 153 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: She might also have had. 154 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: Her own suspicions because of her mother's relationship with this guy. 155 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 2: White that she married. 156 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: So the daughter goes to the police, and the police 157 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: put her in touch with the homicide squad, and the 158 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: homicide squad say, we want you to talk to your 159 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: mother about this, and they wired her for sound and 160 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: she spoke to her mother about the death of her father, 161 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: Johnny Moss, and the mother, Lorraine Moss, said enough to 162 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: her that was taped to essentially implicate her in murder, 163 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: and that was what led the homicide squad to charge 164 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: Lorraine Moss with the murder of her husband, Johnny Moss, 165 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: all those years before. And I think we've visited this 166 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: story at least once in our time doing Life and Crimes, 167 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: and we'd be remiss not to point out that when 168 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:08,719 Speaker 1: the homicide squad would visit Lorraine Musk to interview her, 169 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: which they did on more than one occasion, she would 170 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: always offer them a cup of tea, but those very 171 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: wise detectives would always decline it. 172 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 2: They didn't want to be poisoned. 173 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: As well, regular listeners of Life and Crimes will know 174 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: that we have visited this topic in the past and 175 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: that there are several women in Victoria who have murdered 176 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: their husbands and some have got away with it and 177 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: some haven't. But those who are interested in this topic 178 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: might revisit the episode where we talked about the murders 179 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: of a man called Utly Man called Osland again at Bendigo, and. 180 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,359 Speaker 2: A third case which was out near Paculum. 181 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: One was convicted because the young daughter of the woman 182 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: who was the chief suspect put her hand up late 183 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: in the piece and said I had done it. 184 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 2: I killed my dad, and that threw. 185 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: The prosecution into a confusion, and ultimately no one was convicted. 186 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: That's the case of Diane Griffy. Diane Griffy was the 187 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: wife involved there and in the other cases we had 188 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: Heather Osland and Margaret Utley and those stories are well 189 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: worth looking up if anyone's interested in the ongoing topic 190 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: of women who kill. And that's Andrew Rules signing off 191 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: in the village of Pinelli in Pembrokeshire in Wales on assignment, 192 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: but always keeping an eye open for a story for 193 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: life and Crimes. 194 00:12:58,480 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. 195 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 3: From Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for true 196 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 3: crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 197 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 3: features and more, go to Heraldsun dot com dot au 198 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 3: forward slash Andrew Rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 199 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 3: to news Podcasts sold at News dot com dot au. 200 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 3: That is all one word news podcasts sold And if 201 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 3: you want further information about this episode, links are in 202 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 3: the description.