WEBVTT - Catching the Mornington Monster: Narelle Fraser Pt.1 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:07.840 Detective see a side of life the average person is 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.160 never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.080 For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.279 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.600 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.520 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.440 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:49.479 Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Placing at 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:51.920 the sharp end is a tough business. When you spent 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:55.080 the majority of your career working as a detective in rape, 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:58.160 homicide and missing person squads, You're going to see and 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:01.160 experience some heavy things worked in those environments, and I 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:03.880 can assure you it's a tough gig. It's even harder 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.560 if you're a FEMA, because, let's face it, regardless of 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:09.760 how progressive. We'd like to believe policing has become. It's 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.800 still a bloky environment. Today's guest is a highly decorated 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:17.759 former Victorian police officer, Neel Fraser. She spent twenty seven 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:21.120 years in the job, working on high profile cases. I've 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.319 been wanting to get Norell on I Catch Killers for 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:25.360 a long time and today We've got to hear and 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.160 I'm very excited about it. It's going to be a 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.119 good chat. She's a lot of fun. Noreel Fraser, welcome 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:31.480 to I Catch Killers. 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:33.480 Thank you, it's an absolute pleasure. 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:35.840 Well, I'm glad. I've been trying to get you on 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:39.400 for a while and it's good we've finally got the opportunity. 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.800 I'm going to ask just up front, howe's life outside 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.520 the police. You're enjoying yourself. 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:50.040 That's not an easy question to answer. We've been affected 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:54.160 by the floods in Rochester here in Victoria, yeah, and 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:58.200 we're out of our home for fourteen months. Our home 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:02.000 got decimated, so we've only just come back. We came 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.920 back in just at the end of December and we're 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:11.520 evacuated two weeks later for another flood that completely wrecked 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.200 our whole property, but just this time it didn't get 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.440 into the house whereas last time it did. And to 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.680 be honest, if it got into our house again, I 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:23.160 don't think I could do it again. But so life 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.240 at the moment, it's been it's been pretty stressful, to 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:30.920 be honest. But we're back home now. I'm just so relieved, 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:33.680 so happy that we're back in our own home and 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.000 not renting and living out of motels, to be honest. 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:38.799 So there's a very very long answer or a very 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:39.560 shure christ. 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:44.840 Well, clearly. But look, it's interesting you say with the floods, 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.120 because we've got a lot happening up in New South 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:50.120 Wales and you hear it all over the place, and 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:54.080 I don't think unless you actually involved, how disruptive it 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.320 is and how long it takes to get your life 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:58.360 back in order. And yeah, it's a hell of a 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:00.440 thing to be going through. So sorry to hear that, 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:02.520 but I'm glad you're back in the house now, finally 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:02.920 we are. 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:04.000 Yeah, we are, thank you. 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:06.640 Okay, let's jump into it. I've done a lot of 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:08.520 research and there's a lot of articles that have been 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:10.720 written about you in cases that you've been on and 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.360 a lot of stuff in the media. One thing, and 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.200 I just want people to understand what we're talking about 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.640 with policing, because sometimes people don't fully grasp the depth 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.240 and the horror that we see and experience. There's a 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:26.360 good side, so we'll talk about later on in the podcast. 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:28.960 But there was one particular thing that really hit me. 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:33.519 It was twenty twelve and you had to as part 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:37.360 of your duties review I think it was seventeen hundred 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:38.840 child sex abuse tapes. 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:44.640 Yes, and they were actual videos of children being abused. 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.800 And you know, Gary, I thought that I'm not saying 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:52.720 I'd seen everything, but I felt like I could. I 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:55.400 felt like I could handle it. It wasn't something I've 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:55.880 been thought of. 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:56.120 You know. 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.080 I had to look at the tapes for court, and 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:02.760 so I did. But there's something happened with these seventeen 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.480 hundred videos that I had a reaction I'd never had before, 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.840 and I thought, you know, where the hell did that 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.440 come from. So what I was doing was we'd done 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:16.000 a warrant on a pedophile we've got and to be honest, 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.560 I felt we're at the wrong house because it was 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:23.200 just such that Mum and Dad were there. They were professionals. 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.839 It was must have been a Friday afternoon or something. 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:30.680 But oh, there's they're two sons, adult sons, and one's 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:34.240 got his girlfriend there and they're getting married. They're engaged. 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.480 And I thought to myself it just looked so harmonious, 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:39.880 and I thought, my god, how could we have got 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:43.880 this so wrong? But we had computer crime there with us. Anyway, 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:46.440 we just said, look, can we just have a quick 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.200 look at your computer, and you know, we should be 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:52.040 out of there, and we went and had a look 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.480 at the son's computer who was getting married. It was 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:59.039 about twenty two to twenty three, and I can remember 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.800 the computer. I'm squad guy opening it and he sort 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:08.520 of gasped and I looked and I thought, my god, 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.120 it was like something I had never seen before. And 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.839 I only had a quick look. So obviously you would know, 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:18.440 but the listeners may not. So as police to give 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:20.080 evidence in court, we have to. 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:21.640 We had to. 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:23.919 I don't know it's changed a bit since then, but 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:29.960 we had to look at all the videos and grade 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:34.279 them from one to five, five being the absolute worst. Well, 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:37.480 these were off the scale. If there was something one hundred, 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.560 I would have ticked a one hundred but I watched 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:42.960 the seventeen hundred. But as I said, I had a 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.320 reaction I'd never had before. And it was the first day. 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:50.599 It took two days, and the first day I can 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.640 remember watching something and it just came out of nowhere, 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.280 and I remember going and I thought I was going 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:01.280 to be sick, and I just couldn't I just couldn't 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:04.560 control it. And I remember I went downstairs and had 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:06.960 a coffee and just sort of tried to get myself 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.640 back together, but I just could not get that particular 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.119 vision out of my mind. Anyway, a couple of days later, 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:15.400 I go back to work, and you know how it is, 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.320 given my evidence in court and off we go to 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:18.960 another job. 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.159 I think, Yeah, and that's the nature of policing. We 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.560 accept that you sign up for it. You're not conscripted 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:28.400 into policing. You choose that career. But that type of 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.400 that type of experience, there's some things you see that 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.560 you just cannot unsee. And when you're talking about children, 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:39.160 I think any normal human being, it hits a little 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.560 bit harder. You know, the innocence of these kids to 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:45.440 be caught up in the evil that is there. And yeah, 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.960 another interesting point just what you said on that story. 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.920 That's the creepy part about pedophiles is that they do 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.800 hiding plain sight and people think they're the creepy dude 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.440 and the raincoat and flashing at school kids. It's not 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.880 that way. It's quite often people that you don't suspect, 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.120 and that's what they pray on in other times. But 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.000 I make this point, but I'm sure you agree with 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:14.280 it that sometimes people go but yeah, I wasn't participating 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.360 child porn. I was just watching, sorry, And I shouldn't 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:19.679 call it child porn too. I've been corrected on that before. 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:24.000 It's not porn, it's child sex abuse, tapes abuse, and 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:28.920 that's the proper terminology. I didn't participate in it. I 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:33.000 was just a voyeur. I was just watching. But the 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:34.880 way I look at it, they're just as guilty as 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:37.280 the people participating in it, because they're all part of 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:39.320 that whole criminal, horrible world. 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:39.960 Yeah. 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:43.640 But also, Gary, if you think about it, every single 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:48.240 when they say they're not participating, but every single child 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:53.120 in those videos is a victim and they are all suffering, 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:58.080 so somebody, and if we didn't have people wanting to 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:00.360 watch them, those children wouldn't. 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:02.080 There wouldn't be a market for it. 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:07.760 Correct, So you know they are living victims and it 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:09.679 will affect them for the rest of their life. 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:14.120 I doubt and me, yeah, I understand how old were 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:14.680 the victims? 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.040 The youngest I saw was about three months old and 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:22.040 the oldest I saw was probably about four. 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:27.560 Yeah, I can understand for obvious reasons why that would 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:31.440 impact so heavily on you. Does it sitting down like that? 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.200 And that's what the people don't understand. They think, Okay, 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.640 we'll live sees that, But that is the role of 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:39.000 the police officer. We can't shirk it. You've got to 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:40.800 go through. You've got to present the evidence, and to 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.840 present the evidence, you've got to view the evidence. Did 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:47.000 it destroy your faith in humanity when you see stuff 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:47.360 like that? 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.240 You know what? It didn't? Gary? 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:55.600 Because I thought I wanted pardon me. I wanted to 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:59.320 get those pricks, and the only way you can get 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:05.680 them is to watch, you know, to execute search warrants 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.040 and identify them and arrest them and get them off 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:12.400 the streat, you know, get them away. But it's funny 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:18.560 you'd think with I suppose my career has been mostly 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:20.880 to do with sex offenses and you know, you think 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.120 it would actually turn you off men because most of 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:26.880 the offense are committed by men. But it's funny, like 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:31.360 I love men, I love men's company. I love so 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:35.760 much about them, and what we see is the darkest 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:41.199 of the dark. And no, it didn't really change, you 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.040 know how I felt about humanity. I think it made 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.160 me realize that not all in the world is good. 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:52.480 But if there's one less pedophile I can get inside 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.080 and away from children, I think, you know, it's a 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:56.520 good day. 0:09:56.800 --> 0:10:00.520 I love hearing that sort of attitude, the motive from detectives, 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.880 because that's people look at detectives. They're passionate, driven or whatever, 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.280 the good detectives and that's what you need. I'm going 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.200 to catch these pricks. I Am going after them and 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:14.040 going to do everything and destroy it, literally destroy their lives, 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.440 and enjoy doing it because that's what they deserve. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:19.200 You know. You know, sorry, just on that. 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:23.360 One of the best things I love about what I 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:27.080 miss is you know, when you've got all the evidence 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:30.480 you need, you've got the videos, you've got, it doesn't 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:34.080 matter what they say. You know they are going with 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:37.959 you and they're going to get slotted put in the cells. 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:42.000 And I used to love knocking on the door and think, 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.840 and you know what, you prick, I am taking you 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.440 back to the station. It doesn't matter what you say. 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.320 Oh I just happened to glance at it. 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:53.800 It doesn't matter. I just missed that. 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.600 I'm how I don't know what I'm hearing you, Noel, 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:02.079 And yeah, we shouldn't talk about revenge, vengeance and all that, 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.400 but sometimes there needs to be a little bit. I 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:07.520 would like knocking on the doors when someone's done the 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:10.840 despicable crime and have the wife or parents or someone 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.040 answer the door and Okay, well, yeah, your world is 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:18.160 just about to finish. Time has been up. Now we're 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:20.400 chatting the other day and you mentioned on the back 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.080 of that we're talking about that particular case, and you 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:25.160 say that wasn't long after I think a matter of 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:29.280 days or a week after that, you attended another case. 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:32.520 And it was the way you told it to me, 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:34.079 then if you could tell it again, because it was 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.800 quite sort of confronting, but it also sort of represents 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:39.400 how you go about your pleasing. 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:43.120 Yeah, I had it was only a couple of days 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:47.320 after I'd view these seventeen hundred videos. There's just so 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:51.360 many of these offenses, isn't there and people in the 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.360 real world they just don't see it, which is good. 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:57.840 But yeah, a couple of days later, I was helping 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.680 the AFP, the Australian Fed Police with a warrant on 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:06.120 a suspected pedophile and we went to the house and 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:09.600 it was myself and another member from my office and 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:14.000 a number of AFP members and commuter computer crime. And 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.120 when we went to the house again going back to 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:21.000 what you said, it's just a normal house in normal suburbia, 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.360 quite a nice house. And when we knocked on the door, 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:28.840 the guy that we were looking for that search on 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:34.120 it was attributed to. He answered the door and he 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:40.520 looked like anyone's brother, a boyfriend, Like he was a 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.960 little bit tubby. But you'd see him on the train, 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:46.960 you know, you'd see him at footy. He was just 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:53.120 so normal looking. But we could almost not get in 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:58.440 the door without him saying, you've got me, I've done this, 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:01.880 you know. He wanted to confess there, and then it 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.160 was like, could you just wait until we get in 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:06.440 the door and then you can you know, like he 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:11.360 just he knew we had him. But with this job, 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.600 it was horrendous. It's one of those jobs that you 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:18.920 can never ever walk away from and ever forget. And 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.839 so when we went into his room. He was in 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.120 a sharehouse and it was a bedroom. His bedroom was 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.360 made up like a little film studio, and he had 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:34.320 all these props and all female sex toys. There was 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.000 female clothing, a whole lot of things, and then there 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:41.560 was this what do you call it, a stool in 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:46.920 the middle of all this black curtains. And anyway, he 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:49.679 told us who it was. It was a young twelve 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.200 year old boy. He'd been a friend of the family, 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.080 and he told us who it was straight up. So 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:58.360 I offered, and I think I probably would have got 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.960 the job anyway, because I really want I wanted to 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:06.520 go and talk to this young boy victims. Yeah, somebody 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.720 had to go and tell his parents. Somebody had to 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.600 get the hopefully get the little boy on board and 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:14.920 talk to us. And I just sort of felt that 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.480 was my forte and I thought I can do this. 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:26.000 I'd seen a couple of the videos and it was sickening, 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.960 and anyway, so I went around and as sorry and 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:32.240 as I'll just go back a little bit. This man 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.480 had befriended the family. This is a very typical story. 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:40.480 He'd befriended the family. He used to the parents were 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.920 really hard workers. They didn't have a lot, so he'd say, look, 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.680 I'll look after the kids and you go off and 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:48.680 do your night shift or whatever. So he used to 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:53.040 stay over a lot. And as we found out, he'd 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:56.600 been grooming this little boy for probably since he was 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:01.800 about six, and the offending started at about seven, so 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:07.520 he'd been partaking in child abuse material from when he 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:12.520 was about seven to twelve. So he had been groomed 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:15.560 well and truly by this man. But the man was 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:16.480 giving him gifts. 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:17.320 You know. 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.840 Again, it's so typical. If you say anything, I'm going 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:23.960 to go to jail. But you know, your mum and 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:24.880 dad don't love you. 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:26.200 This is my love. 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:30.080 It it's like a framework, isn't it a step by 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.640 step every year he had again. 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:38.280 Yep, yeah, anyway, so I went around to the home, 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.640 to the family home, and it was about three point 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.280 thirty in the afternoon, and there's mum and dad sitting 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.680 on the couch watching Telly or whatever, and mum comes 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:49.640 to the door, and of course the minute you say, 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.560 look where with the police, Mum goes, I there's anything wrong, Well, 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:56.880 I just need to come inside. 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:58.560 You know, how do you break this news? 0:15:59.120 --> 0:15:59.360 Yeah? 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.200 What do you say? And to be honest, Gary, I 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:06.440 was dreading telling the mum and dad because, as you said, before, 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:12.920 that visit I knew would change their lives forever. And 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.360 so when we went inside and sat down, we said 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.640 the man's name, and you know what, in the end, 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:24.120 you've just got to be honest, there's no point sugarcoating 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.760 it to a point, and we said that their son, 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:31.320 we'd identified him in this child abuse material. Well, they 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.720 were as you would expect. The mum fainted. It was 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:39.120 an awful, an awful place to be. But I also 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:43.600 felt confident is the wrong word, but I knew I 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:45.920 was the right person to do it. I just sort 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:51.080 of felt right. And after a while I didn't tell 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.880 them every you know, but I told them that he'd 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:58.080 been groomed by him, and they said, what did we miss? 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.560 You know, they were blaming themselves. 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:02.600 It's a horrible legacy to carry, isn't it. 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.959 Oh, yeah it is, and you know, why didn't we 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:09.720 see it? And anyway, so then they said, oh, the 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.359 little boy should be home shortly from school. So of 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:16.399 course he walks in from school, and again I just 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.679 dreaded it. But he walks in and he goes to 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.560 the fridge and he opens up and Hi Mum, Hi Dad, 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:28.440 and he goes and Mum goes, you're better come in here. 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:32.560 The police want to speak to you. And the place 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:38.440 just went quiet, and I can remember he didn't come in, 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:42.480 So with the mum, I went into the kitchen with him, 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.320 and I remember just standing there and saying, I've got 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:48.919 to tell you there's nothing wrong. But we've spoken to 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.480 blah blah and this is you know, and I know 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:52.960 everything that's happened, that's. 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:53.320 Not your fault. 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:57.919 Well, he just he exploded and he rarely screamed at me, 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.600 and he ran out the door, and Mum and I 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.760 ran after him, but we had no hope of getting him. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.320 So the mom said he'll come back anyway. He came 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:11.879 back about an hour later, and he wanted to go 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.560 into his mum and dad's room and he said, can 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:17.560 I talk to your mum? So Mum goes in there 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.280 and there in behind closed doors for maybe fifteen minutes. 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:26.040 Again it was a torture, yeah, to wait, you know. 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:29.200 And anyway, then the Mum comes out and she says, 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:33.560 on Narel, he'd like to talk to you. So I 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:36.240 walked into the bedroom and him and his muma laying 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:40.200 on the bed, and I just sort of felt wrong. 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.880 Here I am in a suit, you know, the detectives, 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:46.760 I've got my diary and all this sort of stuff, 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.800 and it just looked it was all wrong. I went 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.120 and sat on the edge of the bed, and I 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.800 was trying to reassure him that he hadn't done anything 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.520 or whatever. But I just felt I needed to get 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.880 onto his level. Big because I'm sitting at the edge 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.000 of the bed, he's lying down with his mum, and 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:06.880 I don't know, but I just said, would you mind 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.399 if I laid there next to you and mum? And 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.160 he goes, no, that'd be nice. So anyway, I laid down. 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:15.440 He held my hand like it was just yeah. 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:17.400 I got the image in my head. 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:19.680 It was just so powerful. 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.919 It was, oh my god, it could nearly bring me 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:27.720 to tears now and then and he told me pretty 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:32.040 much everything, and then he agreed to do he Eventually, 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.280 after a while, he realized that he wasn't in trouble, 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:38.399 that mum and dad weren't going to go to jail. 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.200 But the man was because he'd done something very naughty. 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:47.920 And in the end he actually said to his mum 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:52.359 because we asked the parents if about a medical because obviously, 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.320 you know, we would have liked some evidence, it would 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:59.440 have helped the case. And we explained that to mum 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.359 and dad and they they were fantastic and they said, 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.159 whatever you need, we will, you know, with the boys 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:07.840 agreeing anyway, the boy said to me, would you do 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:10.320 the medical with Minerela, I want you to come with me, 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:11.000 not the mother. 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:13.880 Oh god, Gary, I. 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:18.159 Can remember sitting at the head, Oh God, sitting at 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:21.440 the head of the bed and holding his hand while 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:28.199 they're doing the most intimate examinations. But it was in 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:32.919 a really weird way. It was a really lovely, beautiful 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:38.600 almost way, like the boy trusted us, you know, and 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:43.720 and he eventually told us, Oh, it was horrendous what 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.119 he told us. But and you know, I can always 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:48.800 remember him when we were lying on the bed, just 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:50.679 going back a little bit, when we were lying on 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:54.320 the bed, he was crying, he was very upset, and 0:20:54.359 --> 0:21:00.520 he said, am I gay Mum? And I mean answer that, 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:03.199 and he was kind he said, I don't want to 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.200 be game. I like girls, you know. 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:08.720 Just the cruelty of what that does. 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:12.680 And you know what, the next day I go back 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.040 to work and another job comes in. 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:19.600 You know, It's just Wellll, I wanted you to give 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:22.960 people an understanding of what policing is about, and I 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.600 think you captured so much and that just the short 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:28.520 examples of the stories you told there. But Norell, I 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:30.720 normally wait to the end of the podcast before I 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:34.160 thank someone for the work that you do. I know policing, 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:37.840 I know policing well, and what you displayed there in 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:40.520 that situation, if you did nothing else in your career, 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:42.760 you should be able to walk away and feel like 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.280 you made a difference because you had empathy and care 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:49.320 and everything that needed in that situation. And to me, 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:53.359 that's what makes some people in the job as a cop, 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:57.240 as detectives, those special type people. So I'm giving you 0:21:57.240 --> 0:21:59.440 a wrap right at the start. Well see if I 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:03.000 take it away when we have a further discussion. But honestly, Norell, 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:05.840 and every person I see that I considered to be 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:09.719 a good detective, and I've been surprised that when I 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:12.880 talk to talk to them. What makes a good detective. 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:15.159