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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Placing at

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Speaker 1: the sharp end is a tough business. When you spent

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Speaker 1: the majority of your career working as a detective in rape,

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Speaker 1: homicide and missing person squads, You're going to see and

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Speaker 1: experience some heavy things worked in those environments, and I

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Speaker 1: can assure you it's a tough gig. It's even harder

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Speaker 1: if you're a FEMA, because, let's face it, regardless of

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Speaker 1: how progressive. We'd like to believe policing has become. It's

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Speaker 1: still a bloky environment. Today's guest is a highly decorated

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Speaker 1: former Victorian police officer, Neel Fraser. She spent twenty seven

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Speaker 1: years in the job, working on high profile cases. I've

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Speaker 1: been wanting to get Norell on I Catch Killers for

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Speaker 1: a long time and today We've got to hear and

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited about it. It's going to be a

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Speaker 1: good chat. She's a lot of fun. Noreel Fraser, welcome

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Speaker 1: to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, it's an absolute pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad. I've been trying to get you on

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Speaker 1: for a while and it's good we've finally got the opportunity.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to ask just up front, howe's life outside

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Speaker 1: the police. You're enjoying yourself.

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Speaker 3: That's not an easy question to answer. We've been affected

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Speaker 3: by the floods in Rochester here in Victoria, yeah, and

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Speaker 3: we're out of our home for fourteen months. Our home

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Speaker 3: got decimated, so we've only just come back. We came

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Speaker 3: back in just at the end of December and we're

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Speaker 3: evacuated two weeks later for another flood that completely wrecked

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Speaker 3: our whole property, but just this time it didn't get

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Speaker 3: into the house whereas last time it did. And to

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Speaker 3: be honest, if it got into our house again, I

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Speaker 3: don't think I could do it again. But so life

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Speaker 3: at the moment, it's been it's been pretty stressful, to

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Speaker 3: be honest. But we're back home now. I'm just so relieved,

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Speaker 3: so happy that we're back in our own home and

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Speaker 3: not renting and living out of motels, to be honest.

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Speaker 3: So there's a very very long answer or a very

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Speaker 3: shure christ.

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Speaker 1: Well, clearly. But look, it's interesting you say with the floods,

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Speaker 1: because we've got a lot happening up in New South

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Speaker 1: Wales and you hear it all over the place, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think unless you actually involved, how disruptive it

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Speaker 1: is and how long it takes to get your life

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Speaker 1: back in order. And yeah, it's a hell of a

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Speaker 1: thing to be going through. So sorry to hear that,

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Speaker 1: but I'm glad you're back in the house now, finally

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Speaker 1: we are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's jump into it. I've done a lot of

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Speaker 1: research and there's a lot of articles that have been

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Speaker 1: written about you in cases that you've been on and

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff in the media. One thing, and

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Speaker 1: I just want people to understand what we're talking about

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Speaker 1: with policing, because sometimes people don't fully grasp the depth

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Speaker 1: and the horror that we see and experience. There's a

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Speaker 1: good side, so we'll talk about later on in the podcast.

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Speaker 1: But there was one particular thing that really hit me.

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Speaker 1: It was twenty twelve and you had to as part

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Speaker 1: of your duties review I think it was seventeen hundred

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Speaker 1: child sex abuse tapes.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and they were actual videos of children being abused.

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Speaker 3: And you know, Gary, I thought that I'm not saying

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Speaker 3: I'd seen everything, but I felt like I could. I

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Speaker 3: felt like I could handle it. It wasn't something I've

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Speaker 3: been thought of.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I had to look at the tapes for court, and

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Speaker 3: so I did. But there's something happened with these seventeen

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Speaker 3: hundred videos that I had a reaction I'd never had before,

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Speaker 3: and I thought, you know, where the hell did that

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Speaker 3: come from. So what I was doing was we'd done

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Speaker 3: a warrant on a pedophile we've got and to be honest,

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Speaker 3: I felt we're at the wrong house because it was

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Speaker 3: just such that Mum and Dad were there. They were professionals.

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Speaker 3: It was must have been a Friday afternoon or something.

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Speaker 3: But oh, there's they're two sons, adult sons, and one's

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Speaker 3: got his girlfriend there and they're getting married. They're engaged.

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Speaker 3: And I thought to myself it just looked so harmonious,

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Speaker 3: and I thought, my god, how could we have got

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Speaker 3: this so wrong? But we had computer crime there with us. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: we just said, look, can we just have a quick

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Speaker 3: look at your computer, and you know, we should be

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Speaker 3: out of there, and we went and had a look

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Speaker 3: at the son's computer who was getting married. It was

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Speaker 3: about twenty two to twenty three, and I can remember

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Speaker 3: the computer. I'm squad guy opening it and he sort

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Speaker 3: of gasped and I looked and I thought, my god,

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Speaker 3: it was like something I had never seen before. And

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Speaker 3: I only had a quick look. So obviously you would know,

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Speaker 3: but the listeners may not. So as police to give

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Speaker 3: evidence in court, we have to.

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Speaker 2: We had to.

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Speaker 3: I don't know it's changed a bit since then, but

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Speaker 3: we had to look at all the videos and grade

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Speaker 3: them from one to five, five being the absolute worst. Well,

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Speaker 3: these were off the scale. If there was something one hundred,

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Speaker 3: I would have ticked a one hundred but I watched

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Speaker 3: the seventeen hundred. But as I said, I had a

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Speaker 3: reaction I'd never had before. And it was the first day.

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Speaker 3: It took two days, and the first day I can

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Speaker 3: remember watching something and it just came out of nowhere,

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Speaker 3: and I remember going and I thought I was going

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Speaker 3: to be sick, and I just couldn't I just couldn't

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Speaker 3: control it. And I remember I went downstairs and had

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Speaker 3: a coffee and just sort of tried to get myself

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Speaker 3: back together, but I just could not get that particular

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Speaker 3: vision out of my mind. Anyway, a couple of days later,

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Speaker 3: I go back to work, and you know how it is,

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Speaker 3: given my evidence in court and off we go to

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Speaker 3: another job.

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Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, and that's the nature of policing. We

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Speaker 1: accept that you sign up for it. You're not conscripted

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Speaker 1: into policing. You choose that career. But that type of

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Speaker 1: that type of experience, there's some things you see that

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Speaker 1: you just cannot unsee. And when you're talking about children,

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Speaker 1: I think any normal human being, it hits a little

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Speaker 1: bit harder. You know, the innocence of these kids to

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Speaker 1: be caught up in the evil that is there. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: another interesting point just what you said on that story.

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Speaker 1: That's the creepy part about pedophiles is that they do

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Speaker 1: hiding plain sight and people think they're the creepy dude

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Speaker 1: and the raincoat and flashing at school kids. It's not

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Speaker 1: that way. It's quite often people that you don't suspect,

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Speaker 1: and that's what they pray on in other times. But

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Speaker 1: I make this point, but I'm sure you agree with

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Speaker 1: it that sometimes people go but yeah, I wasn't participating

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Speaker 1: child porn. I was just watching, sorry, And I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: call it child porn too. I've been corrected on that before.

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Speaker 1: It's not porn, it's child sex abuse, tapes abuse, and

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Speaker 1: that's the proper terminology. I didn't participate in it. I

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Speaker 1: was just a voyeur. I was just watching. But the

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Speaker 1: way I look at it, they're just as guilty as

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Speaker 1: the people participating in it, because they're all part of

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Speaker 1: that whole criminal, horrible world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But also, Gary, if you think about it, every single

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Speaker 3: when they say they're not participating, but every single child

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Speaker 3: in those videos is a victim and they are all suffering,

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Speaker 3: so somebody, and if we didn't have people wanting to

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Speaker 3: watch them, those children wouldn't.

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Speaker 1: There wouldn't be a market for it.

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Speaker 3: Correct, So you know they are living victims and it

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Speaker 3: will affect them for the rest of their life.

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Speaker 1: I doubt and me, yeah, I understand how old were

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Speaker 1: the victims?

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Speaker 3: The youngest I saw was about three months old and

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Speaker 3: the oldest I saw was probably about four.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can understand for obvious reasons why that would

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Speaker 1: impact so heavily on you. Does it sitting down like that?

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Speaker 1: And that's what the people don't understand. They think, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we'll live sees that, But that is the role of

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Speaker 1: the police officer. We can't shirk it. You've got to

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Speaker 1: go through. You've got to present the evidence, and to

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Speaker 1: present the evidence, you've got to view the evidence. Did

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Speaker 1: it destroy your faith in humanity when you see stuff

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Speaker 1: like that?

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Speaker 2: You know what? It didn't? Gary?

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Speaker 3: Because I thought I wanted pardon me. I wanted to

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Speaker 3: get those pricks, and the only way you can get

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Speaker 3: them is to watch, you know, to execute search warrants

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Speaker 3: and identify them and arrest them and get them off

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Speaker 3: the streat, you know, get them away. But it's funny

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Speaker 3: you'd think with I suppose my career has been mostly

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Speaker 3: to do with sex offenses and you know, you think

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Speaker 3: it would actually turn you off men because most of

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Speaker 3: the offense are committed by men. But it's funny, like

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Speaker 3: I love men, I love men's company. I love so

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Speaker 3: much about them, and what we see is the darkest

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Speaker 3: of the dark. And no, it didn't really change, you

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Speaker 3: know how I felt about humanity. I think it made

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Speaker 3: me realize that not all in the world is good.

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Speaker 3: But if there's one less pedophile I can get inside

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Speaker 3: and away from children, I think, you know, it's a

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Speaker 3: good day.

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Speaker 1: I love hearing that sort of attitude, the motive from detectives,

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Speaker 1: because that's people look at detectives. They're passionate, driven or whatever,

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Speaker 1: the good detectives and that's what you need. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to catch these pricks. I Am going after them and

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Speaker 1: going to do everything and destroy it, literally destroy their lives,

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Speaker 1: and enjoy doing it because that's what they deserve.

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Speaker 2: You know. You know, sorry, just on that.

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Speaker 3: One of the best things I love about what I

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Speaker 3: miss is you know, when you've got all the evidence

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Speaker 3: you need, you've got the videos, you've got, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: matter what they say. You know they are going with

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Speaker 3: you and they're going to get slotted put in the cells.

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Speaker 3: And I used to love knocking on the door and think,

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Speaker 3: and you know what, you prick, I am taking you

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Speaker 3: back to the station. It doesn't matter what you say.

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Speaker 3: Oh I just happened to glance at it.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. I just missed that.

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Speaker 1: I'm how I don't know what I'm hearing you, Noel,

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Speaker 1: And yeah, we shouldn't talk about revenge, vengeance and all that,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes there needs to be a little bit. I

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Speaker 1: would like knocking on the doors when someone's done the

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Speaker 1: despicable crime and have the wife or parents or someone

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Speaker 1: answer the door and Okay, well, yeah, your world is

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Speaker 1: just about to finish. Time has been up. Now we're

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Speaker 1: chatting the other day and you mentioned on the back

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Speaker 1: of that we're talking about that particular case, and you

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Speaker 1: say that wasn't long after I think a matter of

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Speaker 1: days or a week after that, you attended another case.

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Speaker 1: And it was the way you told it to me,

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Speaker 1: then if you could tell it again, because it was

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Speaker 1: quite sort of confronting, but it also sort of represents

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Speaker 1: how you go about your pleasing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I had it was only a couple of days

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Speaker 3: after I'd view these seventeen hundred videos. There's just so

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Speaker 3: many of these offenses, isn't there and people in the

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Speaker 3: real world they just don't see it, which is good.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, a couple of days later, I was helping

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Speaker 3: the AFP, the Australian Fed Police with a warrant on

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Speaker 3: a suspected pedophile and we went to the house and

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Speaker 3: it was myself and another member from my office and

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Speaker 3: a number of AFP members and commuter computer crime. And

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Speaker 3: when we went to the house again going back to

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Speaker 3: what you said, it's just a normal house in normal suburbia,

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Speaker 3: quite a nice house. And when we knocked on the door,

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Speaker 3: the guy that we were looking for that search on

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Speaker 3: it was attributed to. He answered the door and he

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Speaker 3: looked like anyone's brother, a boyfriend, Like he was a

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Speaker 3: little bit tubby. But you'd see him on the train,

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Speaker 3: you know, you'd see him at footy. He was just

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Speaker 3: so normal looking. But we could almost not get in

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Speaker 3: the door without him saying, you've got me, I've done this,

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Speaker 3: you know. He wanted to confess there, and then it

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Speaker 3: was like, could you just wait until we get in

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Speaker 3: the door and then you can you know, like he

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Speaker 3: just he knew we had him. But with this job,

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Speaker 3: it was horrendous. It's one of those jobs that you

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Speaker 3: can never ever walk away from and ever forget. And

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Speaker 3: so when we went into his room. He was in

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Speaker 3: a sharehouse and it was a bedroom. His bedroom was

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Speaker 3: made up like a little film studio, and he had

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Speaker 3: all these props and all female sex toys. There was

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Speaker 3: female clothing, a whole lot of things, and then there

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Speaker 3: was this what do you call it, a stool in

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Speaker 3: the middle of all this black curtains. And anyway, he

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Speaker 3: told us who it was. It was a young twelve

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Speaker 3: year old boy. He'd been a friend of the family,

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Speaker 3: and he told us who it was straight up. So

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Speaker 3: I offered, and I think I probably would have got

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Speaker 3: the job anyway, because I really want I wanted to

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Speaker 3: go and talk to this young boy victims. Yeah, somebody

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Speaker 3: had to go and tell his parents. Somebody had to

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Speaker 3: get the hopefully get the little boy on board and

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Speaker 3: talk to us. And I just sort of felt that

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Speaker 3: was my forte and I thought I can do this.

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Speaker 3: I'd seen a couple of the videos and it was sickening,

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Speaker 3: and anyway, so I went around and as sorry and

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Speaker 3: as I'll just go back a little bit. This man

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Speaker 3: had befriended the family. This is a very typical story.

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Speaker 3: He'd befriended the family. He used to the parents were

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Speaker 3: really hard workers. They didn't have a lot, so he'd say, look,

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Speaker 3: I'll look after the kids and you go off and

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Speaker 3: do your night shift or whatever. So he used to

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Speaker 3: stay over a lot. And as we found out, he'd

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Speaker 3: been grooming this little boy for probably since he was

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Speaker 3: about six, and the offending started at about seven, so

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Speaker 3: he'd been partaking in child abuse material from when he

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Speaker 3: was about seven to twelve. So he had been groomed

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Speaker 3: well and truly by this man. But the man was

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Speaker 3: giving him gifts.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: Again, it's so typical. If you say anything, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to go to jail. But you know, your mum and

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Speaker 3: dad don't love you.

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Speaker 2: This is my love.

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Speaker 1: It it's like a framework, isn't it a step by

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Speaker 1: step every year he had again.

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Speaker 3: Yep, yeah, anyway, so I went around to the home,

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Speaker 3: to the family home, and it was about three point

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Speaker 3: thirty in the afternoon, and there's mum and dad sitting

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Speaker 3: on the couch watching Telly or whatever, and mum comes

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Speaker 3: to the door, and of course the minute you say,

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Speaker 3: look where with the police, Mum goes, I there's anything wrong, Well,

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Speaker 3: I just need to come inside.

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Speaker 1: You know, how do you break this news?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: What do you say? And to be honest, Gary, I

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Speaker 3: was dreading telling the mum and dad because, as you said, before,

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Speaker 3: that visit I knew would change their lives forever. And

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Speaker 3: so when we went inside and sat down, we said

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Speaker 3: the man's name, and you know what, in the end,

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Speaker 3: you've just got to be honest, there's no point sugarcoating

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Speaker 3: it to a point, and we said that their son,

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Speaker 3: we'd identified him in this child abuse material. Well, they

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Speaker 3: were as you would expect. The mum fainted. It was

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Speaker 3: an awful, an awful place to be. But I also

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Speaker 3: felt confident is the wrong word, but I knew I

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Speaker 3: was the right person to do it. I just sort

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Speaker 3: of felt right. And after a while I didn't tell

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Speaker 3: them every you know, but I told them that he'd

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Speaker 3: been groomed by him, and they said, what did we miss?

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Speaker 3: You know, they were blaming themselves.

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Speaker 1: It's a horrible legacy to carry, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah it is, and you know, why didn't we

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Speaker 3: see it? And anyway, so then they said, oh, the

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Speaker 3: little boy should be home shortly from school. So of

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Speaker 3: course he walks in from school, and again I just

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Speaker 3: dreaded it. But he walks in and he goes to

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Speaker 3: the fridge and he opens up and Hi Mum, Hi Dad,

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Speaker 3: and he goes and Mum goes, you're better come in here.

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Speaker 3: The police want to speak to you. And the place

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Speaker 3: just went quiet, and I can remember he didn't come in,

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Speaker 3: So with the mum, I went into the kitchen with him,

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Speaker 3: and I remember just standing there and saying, I've got

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Speaker 3: to tell you there's nothing wrong. But we've spoken to

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Speaker 3: blah blah and this is you know, and I know

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Speaker 3: everything that's happened, that's.

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Speaker 2: Not your fault.

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Speaker 3: Well, he just he exploded and he rarely screamed at me,

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Speaker 3: and he ran out the door, and Mum and I

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Speaker 3: ran after him, but we had no hope of getting him.

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Speaker 3: So the mom said he'll come back anyway. He came

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Speaker 3: back about an hour later, and he wanted to go

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Speaker 3: into his mum and dad's room and he said, can

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Speaker 3: I talk to your mum? So Mum goes in there

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Speaker 3: and there in behind closed doors for maybe fifteen minutes.

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Speaker 3: Again it was a torture, yeah, to wait, you know.

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Speaker 3: And anyway, then the Mum comes out and she says,

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Speaker 3: on Narel, he'd like to talk to you. So I

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Speaker 3: walked into the bedroom and him and his muma laying

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Speaker 3: on the bed, and I just sort of felt wrong.

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Speaker 3: Here I am in a suit, you know, the detectives,

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Speaker 3: I've got my diary and all this sort of stuff,

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Speaker 3: and it just looked it was all wrong. I went

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Speaker 3: and sat on the edge of the bed, and I

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Speaker 3: was trying to reassure him that he hadn't done anything

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Speaker 3: or whatever. But I just felt I needed to get

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Speaker 3: onto his level. Big because I'm sitting at the edge

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Speaker 3: of the bed, he's lying down with his mum, and

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Speaker 3: I don't know, but I just said, would you mind

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Speaker 3: if I laid there next to you and mum? And

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Speaker 3: he goes, no, that'd be nice. So anyway, I laid down.

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Speaker 3: He held my hand like it was just yeah.

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Speaker 1: I got the image in my head.

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Speaker 2: It was just so powerful.

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Speaker 3: It was, oh my god, it could nearly bring me

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Speaker 3: to tears now and then and he told me pretty

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Speaker 3: much everything, and then he agreed to do he Eventually,

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Speaker 3: after a while, he realized that he wasn't in trouble,

355
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Speaker 3: that mum and dad weren't going to go to jail.

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Speaker 3: But the man was because he'd done something very naughty.

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Speaker 3: And in the end he actually said to his mum

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Speaker 3: because we asked the parents if about a medical because obviously,

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00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 3: you know, we would have liked some evidence, it would

360
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 3: have helped the case. And we explained that to mum

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Speaker 3: and dad and they they were fantastic and they said,

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Speaker 3: whatever you need, we will, you know, with the boys

363
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 3: agreeing anyway, the boy said to me, would you do

364
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 3: the medical with Minerela, I want you to come with me,

365
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Speaker 3: not the mother.

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00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:13,880
Speaker 2: Oh god, Gary, I.

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Speaker 3: Can remember sitting at the head, Oh God, sitting at

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Speaker 3: the head of the bed and holding his hand while

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Speaker 3: they're doing the most intimate examinations. But it was in

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Speaker 3: a really weird way. It was a really lovely, beautiful

371
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:38,600
Speaker 3: almost way, like the boy trusted us, you know, and

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Speaker 3: and he eventually told us, Oh, it was horrendous what

373
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Speaker 3: he told us. But and you know, I can always

374
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Speaker 3: remember him when we were lying on the bed, just

375
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Speaker 3: going back a little bit, when we were lying on

376
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Speaker 3: the bed, he was crying, he was very upset, and

377
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Speaker 3: he said, am I gay Mum? And I mean answer that,

378
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,199
Speaker 3: and he was kind he said, I don't want to

379
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Speaker 3: be game. I like girls, you know.

380
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Speaker 1: Just the cruelty of what that does.

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Speaker 3: And you know what, the next day I go back

382
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Speaker 3: to work and another job comes in.

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00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 1: You know, It's just Wellll, I wanted you to give

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Speaker 1: people an understanding of what policing is about, and I

385
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 1: think you captured so much and that just the short

386
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 1: examples of the stories you told there. But Norell, I

387
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 1: normally wait to the end of the podcast before I

388
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 1: thank someone for the work that you do. I know policing,

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Speaker 1: I know policing well, and what you displayed there in

390
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: that situation, if you did nothing else in your career,

391
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: you should be able to walk away and feel like

392
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 1: you made a difference because you had empathy and care

393
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Speaker 1: and everything that needed in that situation. And to me,

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00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 1: that's what makes some people in the job as a cop,

395
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 1: as detectives, those special type people. So I'm giving you

396
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 1: a wrap right at the start. Well see if I

397
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: take it away when we have a further discussion. But honestly, Norell,

398
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 1: and every person I see that I considered to be

399
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,719
Speaker 1: a good detective, and I've been surprised that when I

400
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,880
Speaker 1: talk to talk to them. What makes a good detective.

401
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 1: And they all talk about the empathy and what you

402
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 1: displayed there was in bucket loads and the difference that

403
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 1: you made and probably restored the faith for that poor

404
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: little kid in life. And his parents say, well done, great,

405
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 1: great policing. And people don't see that as policing. People

406
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: wouldn't even understand what you just told us. You lay

407
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Speaker 1: down on the bed with the mother and the young

408
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 1: young boy.

409
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, but when you think about it, if you heard

410
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 3: somebody say that, you'd think, God, how inappropriate, wouldn't you? Yeah?

411
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 2: Initially?

412
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I'm sure I'm sure there would be

413
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 1: some resistance. Are you're getting too close, you're feeling it

414
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,679
Speaker 1: too much. But when you're talking about crimes or the

415
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: nature you just described, that's what you've got to give.

416
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 1: And if you can't give that, don't investigate those crimes.

417
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 1: Really let some ken. But no, you can make a

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00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: world of difference just in a little example like that.

419
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: So thanks for what you did there, and thanks for

420
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 1: telling us that story. We're going to wind it back

421
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,719
Speaker 1: a little bit. I want to find out about norell

422
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 1: As growing up. What was your what was your childhood like?

423
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: Are you basic?

424
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: Yeap?

425
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 3: Very suburbia. Dad was a shoe salesman, and isn't it funny?

426
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 3: He loved it, thought it was the best job in

427
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 3: the world.

428
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 2: Hilarious, he did.

429
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 3: Mum had been a secretary she had. Mum and Dad

430
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 3: married quite late, so they had three of us in

431
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 3: two and a half years. I've got two sisters, yeah,

432
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 3: so what are you saying? Yeah, so I'm the eldest,

433
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 3: and then I've got a sister eleven month younger and

434
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Speaker 3: another one seventeen months younger. Again, so they gave me.

435
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 3: My parents gave me the most beautiful sisters, and they

436
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 3: gave me something that I saw in policing a lot

437
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: of people didn't have, and that's, you know, a roof

438
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 3: over my head, love support, you know. You know, we

439
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 3: did what all kids do, you know, played up the

440
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 3: road and you know, in the BlackBerry bush, all sorts

441
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 3: of stuff. And I think they introduced us to a

442
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 3: fantastic group of their friends. We used to go away

443
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 3: every Christmas down to wind Block and spent four or

444
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 3: five weeks down there. And I always remember something funny.

445
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 3: I always remember all the boys, like the fathers. They

446
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 3: always used to say, at about four o'clock, we need

447
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 3: to go into town and get the sugar, you know.

448
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 3: And you know, it never dawned on me until years later.

449
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 3: What the actually do we.

450
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: You make me laugh because I remember it wasn't to

451
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 1: get the sugar. But I remember that all the men

452
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: in the street where I grew up, that on a

453
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: Saturday afternoon, they'd all say they're going up the road.

454
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 1: As a kid, I'm thinking, why do they always get

455
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 1: up the road? Yeah. Then they'd come back in and

456
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: they'd seem very happy or in different different states. And

457
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: I think when you have a childhood like that, you

458
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: can look at other kids and situations, and the offenders

459
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: too when they come through, and it makes a difference

460
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: because you carry what your childhood with you, whether you

461
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: like it or not. Why did you want to join

462
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: the police?

463
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 3: It came out of nowhere. I was counseling. I've been

464
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 3: a secretary, shorthand typing, you know, a PA to company directors.

465
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 3: You know. I was sort of reasonably good at my job.

466
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 3: I loved it, but I started. I'd always been a

467
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 3: sort of fairly caring person, interested in, you know, the

468
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 3: psychology behind people, and I just sort of felt I

469
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 3: had something to offer with people who hadn't been as

470
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 3: fortunate as I had, And so I did a counseling

471
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 3: course with Lifeline. As I said, it just came out

472
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 3: of nowhere and I just loved it. But what I

473
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 3: found and I became a telephone counselor. But I started

474
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 3: to think. I thought, how can I get to these

475
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 3: people before they get to the point of bringing lifeline. Yeah,

476
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 3: and so because a lot of them were homeless, a

477
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 3: lot of them were you know, suicidal, They just they

478
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 3: had no one, you know, they were helpless, they were hopeless,

479
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 3: and I just thought, how could I get to them

480
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 3: before they get to the point where they've got a

481
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 3: ring lifeline, you know. And that's when I thought policing.

482
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 3: And then it all started to sort of you know,

483
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 3: how things happen, a little bit of fate, I don't know.

484
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 3: But at the time I was very fit. I was

485
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 3: running a lot, and clearly I've stopped running, but.

486
00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 2: Everything just, I don't know, it just jelled.

487
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 3: It was all right. And I went to the police

488
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 3: careers when lunchtime and the they used to have one

489
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 3: in the middle of the city. I went there and

490
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 3: this is what you need and it just all sort

491
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 3: of flowed and boy, and then I went out to

492
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 3: the academy. My god, was that a like I'd never

493
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 3: in my upbringing. I'd never seen an angry man. I'd

494
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 3: never heard somebody yell. And at the Academy it was

495
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 3: bros up, you know, and they'd yell at you, and

496
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 3: it was like, excuse me. But then you couldn't do

497
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 3: that because you had to toe the line. But I

498
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 3: really struggled at the academy academically, really struggled, you know.

499
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 3: I left school at fifteen to be a secretary, so

500
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 3: that's how I got into police.

501
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: Okay. I like hearing the stories and it just brings

502
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: back my own memories of going in the academy. And

503
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 1: there's so much to take on board, isn't it. There's

504
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: so much. You're really stepping into a new world and

505
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: you've got to get your head around the laws and

506
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: your police powers, and then you've got to shoot, and

507
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: you've got to train and powers of arrest, just so

508
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: many things. But I remember in the academy, I loved

509
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: it when they were yelling at us, and that I'm thinking, oh,

510
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: didn't you and we yet paid for this. I still

511
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: still remember. I think it was the first week I'm

512
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: in the academy and they took us on a run

513
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: on a Friday afternoon and I loved it. And someone

514
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,479
Speaker 1: had thrown up and were doing push ups and they

515
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: made them do the push ups over their own own vomit,

516
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,959
Speaker 1: and I just thought, and they're paying us for this.

517
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: So that was my experience in the academy.

518
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: And you know, and one other thing is with a gun.

519
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 3: I'd never seen a gun, let alone handle one and

520
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 3: actually shoot it right. So I used to get very

521
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 3: nervous in the shooting range. And the first time I

522
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 3: ever went in there. You know how, we used to

523
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 3: have thirty targets and used to have to get let's say,

524
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: I don't know, I think it was almost thirty out

525
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 3: of thirty. I can't remember now, but let's say it

526
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 3: was thirty out of thirty. Anyway, I ended up getting

527
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 3: twenty eight out of thirty, but the bloke next to

528
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 3: me got thirty two.

529
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: You might have a couple of your way. I'm not

530
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: saying this has ever happened, but I've been through a

531
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: lot of qualifying shoots and all that, and there might

532
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: be someone that's not as handy with the weapon standing

533
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: beside you and a shot might have gone gone into

534
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: their target. It's terrible thing. But yeah, but you know, again,

535
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: these are things and you see people and it doesn't

536
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: have to be a man or woman. I've just seen

537
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: people that guns are confronting things like when you're handling them,

538
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: and you see people that it's the greatest fear in policing.

539
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: Joining policing have to handle the weapon. And you know,

540
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: if that's your phobia or your fear, I can understand

541
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: that mine and you wouldn't have had this in the academy.

542
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: We had to touch type it. I don't know whether

543
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: it was forty words a minute or something you had

544
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: to pass. You'd be going to typing class each day.

545
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: Touch typing. That was the biggest stress I had in

546
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: the academy to make sure a could touch type. And

547
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,719
Speaker 1: I remember between the initial training and the secondary training,

548
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: I had a holiday and I had to get a typewriter.

549
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: I'd take away and sit in the tent. I was

550
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: just away on a surfing holiday. People must have thought

551
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: I met this creative writer sitting in this tent typing.

552
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: It was met practicing my touch typing.

553
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: But you see, that's something I didn't struggle with because.

554
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: I was jealous of people like you like that, But

555
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: that's a skill. I I never hung on the touch typing,

556
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: and I was told it's one of my biggest regrets.

557
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: I sort of an abbreviated version of touch typing. But

558
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: when you get out in the police station, you're filling

559
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: out the forms and this and that, and like I

560
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: can type quickly. But yeah, it's a skill that I

561
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: should have hung on to. And shorthand note taking, that

562
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: would have been a fantastic skill to have.

563
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 3: I was going to say shorthand was. There's only one

564
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: time whenever you're giving evidence in a court where you're

565
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 3: on top of things and the defense start going to water,

566
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 3: and it was when they used to stay to me,

567
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 3: do you have your notes there?

568
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: Constable?

569
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 3: I used to wait for them to say that, yeah,

570
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 3: I'm given to them and they I could see them

571
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 3: like they go white, the blood would drain out of

572
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 3: their face. And of course you never ask a question

573
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 3: you don't know the answer to, so of course they

574
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 3: couldn't say what does this say, because it might say

575
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 3: I did it? Seem you know I did it?

576
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: In Noarrell, Yeah, no, that would have been beautiful. I

577
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: wish I had that in my back pocket seeing the

578
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: witness box under intense cross examination. But yeah, no, that's

579
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: that's good. I can understand why the benefits. So you're

580
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: out out where were you first stationed in uniform?

581
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: Would you believe some Kilda?

582
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: Right? Okay? So in the in the figure of it, woh.

583
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 3: Was it ever talk about a baptism of fire? But again, talking,

584
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 3: I sound like I'm terribly soft and fluffy, but I

585
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 3: can you know, I can yell at the best of

586
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 3: times and get people to do what I want them

587
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 3: to if I have to. But I can always remember

588
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 3: I'd never seen a prostitute. We're again, they're not prostitutes.

589
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,239
Speaker 1: Sex sex workers. Yep, you and I are showing that

590
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: we can evolve and understand the world.

591
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: We can.

592
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 3: Ye, So i'd never seen a sex worker and an

593
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 3: ice boy? Did I seem at some killed? And you know,

594
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 3: there's some things you learn in policing. You learn a

595
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 3: lot of good things, but you also learn a lot

596
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 3: of things, And you think I will.

597
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: Never do that.

598
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 3: I never ever treated them any differently to anyone else.

599
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 3: In fact, by talking to them and being kind and

600
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 3: a bit understanding, they gave me grade info.

601
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: Right, And I think People sometimes misunderstand that that if

602
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: you didn't come across gruff and the hard ass cop,

603
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: people are going to walk over you. But the reverse

604
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: is quite often. There's times, as you identified, you need

605
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: to crack down and that tough guy or tough lady.

606
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: But just treating people with a little bit of respect

607
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: can go a long way, especially when they're being treated

608
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: like just kicked around all their life and then someone

609
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: shows them some interest and sits down, actually sits in

610
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: thegether with them or wherever, and has a conversation. It's

611
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: amazing the information that you can get. What attracted you

612
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: to detectives, What was the drive there?

613
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 3: It sounds wrong, but the more serious the offense, the

614
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 3: more I want to be there. I'm not saying the

615
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: little old lady coming in and saying she'd lost her purse,

616
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,239
Speaker 3: that was big to her. But I wanted, you know,

617
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 3: I wanted the rapes. I wanted to be involved in

618
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 3: the rapes, in the murders, in the abductions, the challenge

619
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 3: and the real as you referred to before, the real

620
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 3: hard assed crooks. That's what I wanted. But it wasn't

621
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 3: so much. It was more about I wanted to get

622
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 3: into sort of get into their head. For instance, a rapist.

623
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 3: I found it absolutely fascinating. Maybe I don't know if

624
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 3: that's the right.

625
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 1: The psychology of it is incorrect.

626
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 3: To get into their you know, their thinking, and to

627
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 3: talk to them about what made them do it, What

628
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 3: were you thinking?

629
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:43,439
Speaker 2: What had you done?

630
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 3: A lot of them had been watching pornography. A lot

631
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 3: of younger offenders had been watching pornography. But you learn

632
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 3: a lot by being interested in people and showing literally

633
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 3: I did. I was interesting in what made them tick,

634
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 3: what was it on that day, that person, you know,

635
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 3: all that sort of stuff. That's what I wanted. And

636
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 3: also the victims, not the offenders, were very challenging because

637
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 3: some just don't want to talk to you, and that's fine,

638
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 3: you've got to accept that. But also the victims, you know,

639
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 3: I can remember a rape I went to where the

640
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 3: victim had been oh, bashed. I've never seen anybody bashed

641
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 3: so hard, not even in a street fight. Her head

642
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 3: was like a bowling ball, and she had been raped

643
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 3: and stood on, stomped on, and she couldn't see. And

644
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 3: I sat with her for a week in a hospital,

645
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 3: just trying to get as much information as we could

646
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 3: and again talking about her parents and she had other

647
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: siblings and to take them in and see her the

648
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 3: way she was in a hospital bed. But for some reason, Gary,

649
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 3: that drew me like a honeypot. If that makes sense.

650
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: No, it does make sense. And it's and I'm always

651
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: cautious to say this when I'm speaking to detectives because

652
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 1: we gravitate towards detectives on this show. I totally respect

653
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 1: the men and women that stay in uniform, and you

654
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: know they are at the sharp end the front line

655
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 1: of the police when shit happens. Usually the first one,

656
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: first one's there and they never know what they're going

657
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: to be confronted with. It shift and you would have

658
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: seen it. I saw it. Some of these good uniform

659
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: police has spent their whole career in uniform. They had

660
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: a skill set we didn't have as detectives. They had

661
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: a mannerism and a way that they went about their business.

662
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: So it's not saying one is better or the other,

663
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: but yeah, the curiosity. Curiosity drove me to detectives. I

664
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: was at a scene I think it was a murder,

665
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: and I see the detectives walk in, they go through

666
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: the crime tape. I'm out guard the crime tape and

667
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: then they come out with this knowing look on their face,

668
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: and I think, I want to I want to get

669
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: behind the tape. I want to go inside the scene

670
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: and see it. But you obviously enjoyed it.

671
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. I also used to love the debriefs, and you know,

672
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 3: when a job had come in and you'd all sit

673
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 3: around the table and you'd have the paper up there

674
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 3: and people would be scribbling. You know, Norell, you're doing this,

675
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 3: somebody else do just to talk about it. I missed

676
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 3: that so much, you know, that working in a team,

677
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 3: because often when you're on the div van, it's just

678
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 3: you and your colleague. But I loved that working in

679
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 3: a team because everybody brings a different skill. I was

680
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 3: never the you know such and this power of arrest

681
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 3: and this, you know, this section of the crimes out.

682
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: There were people that could just recite things and that

683
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 3: wasn't my forte. I knew what mine was, and mine

684
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 3: was working with the victims and just the cycleologue logical

685
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 3: part is what I love.

686
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, shut up, Nell, you're bringing me back to the

687
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: memories of in the incident room when something's breaking and

688
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: there's a collaborative group of minds there and everyone's staring

689
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 1: at the whiteboard and what says have we missed something?

690
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 1: And someone will say something that, yeah, it's exciting that,

691
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: it's exhilarating that. Yeah. They try to capture it on

692
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 1: you know, you see the TV shows and all that.

693
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 1: Sometimes they do. But when you see it, when you've

694
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: got something where it's everyone working together, the soul of

695
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: this crime, it is a good place. Now. I just

696
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 1: said we'll jump forward and we'll move backwards and forwards.

697
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: But again, research and preparing for this the murder of

698
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: Anna and Gracie Sharp Mornington monster case. Can you tell

699
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 1: us about that case, your involvement in the case, and

700
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: just lead us to how the bodies were found and

701
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: different things like that. Just take us through that.

702
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 3: Sure, I was a missing persons at the time. I

703
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 3: think it was around two thousand and four.

704
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, yeah.

705
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 3: Okay, thanks. And a job came in and our analysts

706
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 3: looked at it and thought, you know, the analysts a

707
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 3: lot of unsung heroes in oh and our analyst Helen,

708
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 3: she was just fantastic and she could smell a rat

709
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 3: a mile off. And this job came in and it

710
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 3: was a bit old. It was a couple of months

711
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 3: down the track a woman had gone missing from Mornington

712
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 3: with her little daughter. And what had happened was it

713
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 3: was Anna and Gracie Sharp. Anna was married to John Sharp.

714
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 3: They moved down to Mornington and they had little Gracie

715
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 3: and Anna was pregnant with their second child. And Anna's

716
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: mum lived in New Zealand because that's where Anna came from,

717
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 3: and and his mum would ring. They were very close

718
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 3: and they bring each other all the time, almost daily. Anyway,

719
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 3: for a while, Anna's mum couldn't get on to Anna

720
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 3: and she thought there was something something was just bubbling away,

721
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 3: thinking there's something not right here. And I think she

722
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 3: tried for a couple of weeks and she'd ring John

723
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 3: and she'd say I haven't been able to speak to Anna.

724
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 3: And John and say, oh, she's shopping or you know whatever,

725
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 3: out with girlfriends.

726
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

727
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 3: But then as time went on there was something not

728
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 3: right and eventually John said to his mother in law, look,

729
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 3: she's had an affair and she's actually left me. I

730
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 3: didn't know how to tell you. Anna's mum knew that

731
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 3: wasn't right. Because Anna was pregnant with their second child.

732
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 3: She'd never ever mention anything about being unhappy or anything anyway.

733
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 3: So Ana's mum rang the local Dunedin police in New Zealand,

734
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,919
Speaker 3: and of course they make a few inquiries. They ring

735
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 3: John and John says, oh, she's had an affair in

736
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 3: left me. So they then ring they smell a rat

737
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 3: and they ring Mornington Police, the local police, and they

738
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 3: tell them, you know the information they've got, can you

739
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 3: go around and check it out. So off they go

740
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 3: round to John's.

741
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 2: And he's there.

742
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 3: He's very it was quite sort of distraught, a bit nervous,

743
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 3: as you'd expect, you know, anyone coming into contact with

744
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:29,919
Speaker 3: police is nervous, so but there was something about him.

745
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 3: They just you know, we get it as police, not

746
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 3: just detectives. All police, I think get these gut feelings.

747
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 3: And the police at Mornington thought there's something right here,

748
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 3: so they go back to Mornington. No, I don't think

749
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 3: the actually got back to Mornington. I think actually got

750
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 3: out front of the house and they rang our office

751
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 3: and they said something is very wrong here. So that's

752
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 3: when we started the ball rolling. And I think we're

753
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 3: about six or eight weeks down the track, so we

754
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 3: had we were behind that April.

755
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, from the start, if that's when you're talking investigations,

756
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 1: you're playing catch up. And back then it was you're

757
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: losing information, you're losing witnesses or that the longer it

758
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: takes before you ramp up the investigation.

759
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 3: So anyway, we eventually the bosses make a decision, Yes,

760
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 3: we're going to go down. We're going to have a

761
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 3: look at it. So we get a team together. Off

762
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 3: we go down to Mornington. We have that briefing, and

763
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 3: again it's just it's exciting, you know, like is this

764
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 3: and what we had to determine was with any missing

765
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 3: person case, is the person missing or is there an

766
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 3: offense involved? Have they just decide number one, has she

767
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 3: had an affair and has she gone off with somebody else? Yeah,

768
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 3: it's possible, of.

769
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: Course, And that's why those investigations are a little bit

770
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: harder if you start with the body, you know, okay,

771
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: here's the offense, and then you can work from there. So, yeah,

772
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 1: it adds another layer to an investigation when someone's.

773
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 3: Just just to establish if a crime has been committed, you know,

774
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 3: and so we know, did the usual you know, Norell

775
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 3: you do this, somebody else do that? So off we go,

776
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 3: We make our we do a few inquiries, and we

777
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 3: come back and then we decide we're going to go

778
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 3: around to John's and speak to him. So we go around.

779
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 3: This is probably two days later, Oh maybe not that long,

780
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 3: but anyway, we go around to John's to the house.

781
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 3: The house is a lovely two story house in Mornington,

782
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 3: quite reasonably nice house, I would you know. Anyway, we

783
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 3: knock on the door and John answers, and he's very accommodating,

784
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 3: Oh yes, please come in, and he's sort of a

785
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 3: bit upset. But the house itself, it was that cold.

786
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 3: And I don't mean cold temperature, I mean cold as

787
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 3: in there was just nothing, no warmth in the house.

788
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 3: It was like almost like a death house sort.

789
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: Of, you know, seeing what you're saying, Oh God.

790
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 3: And there was no sort of little knickknacks. Anyway, we say, look,

791
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,439
Speaker 3: we don't have a warrant at this point, but we say,

792
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 3: look we just have a bit because we're just there

793
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 3: having a chat to him, and you know, we don't

794
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 3: know what's going on. So we said, oh, can we

795
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 3: just have a bit of a look around you. So

796
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 3: he takes us upstairs and we go up to the

797
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 3: main bedroom and there's no bed and it's like, oh,

798
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 3: what's where's the bed? And he said, oh, I had

799
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 3: to get rid of it because the memories were just

800
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 3: too difficult, too hard to bear. Again, yep, I can

801
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 3: understand that. So then we go into Grace's room and

802
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 3: her COT's missing, and oh, where's Grace's cot? Oh well,

803
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 3: you know the man that she's moved in with, he

804
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 3: didn't have a cot. So they took Grace's cot again, right,

805
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 3: but we didn't the word is I was going to

806
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 3: say we didn't like him from the start.

807
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 2: That's that's not very fair. But you know I didn't

808
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 2: like it.

809
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: You smelled something about.

810
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 2: It, absolutely, yeah.

811
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 3: But what we did, what we did notice was in

812
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 3: the kitchen there was you know how we have a

813
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,240
Speaker 3: calendars in the kitchen and oh, you know the doctor's appointment,

814
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 3: haircut all that. We noticed that there were all these

815
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 3: appointments for Anna, you know, the doctor, all this sort

816
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 3: of stuff.

817
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 2: It was just wrong.

818
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 3: Anyway, we ended up.

819
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: I love hearing these stories in the rel in that

820
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: just yeah, these these little things from a keen eye

821
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: of a detective, investigators looking at it, going okay, that's

822
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: something and it's not. It's not evidence as such. You're

823
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: not going to convict a person. But it all starts

824
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 1: to add their red flags are indicators.

825
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, and you know how you just start getting

826
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 3: it just starts. Yep, that's right. The bed's missing, the

827
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 3: COT's missing. So when we went back that night, we

828
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 3: drew up a search on and when it's not I

829
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 3: was a team in a team of let's say, there

830
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 3: was maybe five or six of us, so it's not.

831
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,760
Speaker 1: I it's right, and I accept that when anyone's talking

832
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: to investigations team sport.

833
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 3: That's absolutely anyway. So we go back and throw a

834
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 3: few things around. None of us believed him, but of

835
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 3: course we've got no evidence, so we do a search

836
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 3: warrant the following day. Again all very you know, chatty,

837
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 3: but you know he had the personality of a stop sign. Okay, serious, seriously,

838
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 3: he had.

839
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 2: He just had nothing.

840
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,399
Speaker 3: He you know, I think most people I can get

841
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 3: a little bit of a I don't know, rapport with,

842
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 3: but it was like getting rapport with a block of wood.

843
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 2: Seriously, it was it was just a non nothing.

844
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: I've met those people, offenders like people and yeah, there's

845
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: something that what what am I not getting here something.

846
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: There's no connection there. It's it's interesting, isn't it.

847
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 2: Yeah?

848
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 3: Nothing, And anyway, so we did a warrant the next

849
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 3: day and we took away you know, a whole lot

850
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 3: of stuff as you'd expect, you know, the computer and

851
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 3: I can't remember, but we must have had somebody doing

852
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 3: the luminole and all that sort of stuff. But the

853
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 3: place was as clean as and we found nothing. Anyway,

854
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 3: So we we go on. You know, everyone's doing their

855
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 3: their stuff there.

856
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: Oh that's right.

857
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,439
Speaker 3: John had said that he'd seen a green car down

858
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 3: the road or something. So we do a door knock.

859
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 3: And I've said many times and you would agree with this,

860
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 3: you get so much from a door knock. People think

861
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 3: the young police think a door knock it's boring, But

862
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 3: you get so much information, don't you.

863
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: We call it Canvassin. And I used to lecture at

864
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: the Academy of Homicide courses and detective courses, and I

865
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: couldn't stress enough the importance of the information. And I

866
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,959
Speaker 1: learned that from people that trained me when I first

867
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: in detectives, or first a couple of big jobs, and yeah,

868
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: do the canvas and yea, they just pile there and

869
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: then the good detectives again, what did that person say?

870
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: Who did you speak to? There? And just going through

871
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: the canvas FMS in my neute detail, Yeah, the amount

872
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: of information you gets incredible.

873
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and you're right, Oh, you've just reminded me. Yes.

874
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 3: So when the uniform police come back and they've filled

875
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 3: out their form and the questions you wanted asked, and

876
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 3: then there's some and you think, did you ask them?

877
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 3: Did you go into any detail about this particular thing. No,

878
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 3: we'll go back, or we go back and you don't

879
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 3: have another chat anyway. So we get let's say, a

880
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 3: week down the track. Anna's mum receives a bunch of

881
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 3: flowers for her birthday from Anna, but then she realizes

882
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 3: that it's not She knows her daughters the way she

883
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 3: writes her expressions, it's not Anna's words.

884
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 2: She also gets.

885
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 3: A bunch of flowers and there was something else, but

886
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 3: she knew it wasn't Anna anyway. She then, So things

887
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 3: are starting to add up, and we keep going back

888
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 3: to John to get more information. What we find out

889
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 3: is that John's from a close family. He's got four

890
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 3: older sisters, his parents are still alive. He provided a

891
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 3: photo to us that we actually established later was taken

892
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 3: two days before Anna and Gracie were murdered, and this was,

893
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 3: you know, we'd been to a family do or something.

894
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 3: Because we can't find any signs of disturbance, there is

895
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 3: nothing to suggest that they have been done away with.

896
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 3: But there's also nothing to suggest that she's had an

897
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 3: affair either, because what's happening is her phone is still

898
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 3: being used and her credit card is still being used.

899
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 2: So that adds to the.

900
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 1: Is she having a confusion whether there was some legitimacy

901
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: to her going on?

902
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely. So over the next week.

903
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 3: We you know, we keep doing what we were doing,

904
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 3: but then we're getting nowhere. And then in that briefing,

905
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 3: somebody says, we've got to try surveillance, but we can't

906
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 3: do We can't put an elder a listening device in

907
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 3: John's house or in his car because he talks to

908
00:50:58,600 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 3: no one.

909
00:50:59,120 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 1: Is there on his own.

910
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he's got no friends, he's got no he's

911
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 3: just a loner. Some could call him a loser, but anyway,

912
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 3: I won't.

913
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 2: So what we do.

914
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 3: Is we think, well, let's just watch him, let's do it,

915
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 3: get him to do a media release, and we'll just

916
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 3: follow him from them. So he does a media release

917
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 3: on Channel seven and I think a number of people

918
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 3: have seen this where he you know, he cries and

919
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 3: holds up them. I don't know how he could do this,

920
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 3: but he holds up a photo of little Gracie. You know,

921
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 3: please if just ring the police, you know, please with

922
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 3: her to contact and anyway, So what happens is the dogs,

923
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 3: the surveillance that's what we call the the listeners.

924
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 2: I know what you you know what it is.

925
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: Why are you calling them dogs? Let's the term that's

926
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: frequently used for our surveillance place.

927
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 3: And so the dogs following from straight after the interview

928
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 3: is just the most exciting, almost day of my life.

929
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:08,760
Speaker 3: They follow him anyway, he goes down to the Chelsea Beach,

930
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,760
Speaker 3: maybe twenty minutes away from where he's done the interview.

931
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 3: And he goes down to the Chelsea Beach, and of

932
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 3: course the dogs are watching him.

933
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 2: They've got.

934
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,839
Speaker 3: Binoculars, they're taking videos and all this, and they watch

935
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 3: him and he gets out of his car and he

936
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 3: goes behind a toilet block and you can see the

937
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 3: video and he looks round checks and he digs down

938
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 3: under a bin and he brings out this plastic bag.

939
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 3: You see him make a phone call. There's a phone

940
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 3: in the bag, so he makes a phone call, puts

941
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 3: that back, and then he goes to the local shopping center,

942
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 3: withdraws two hundred dollars from the bank, which of course

943
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 3: has got no CCTV. Withdraws a two hundred bucks, puts

944
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:01,720
Speaker 3: the bag, everything back in the bag by the two hundred,

945
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 3: and then you see him go back to where he'd

946
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 3: got the bag originally. He buries the bag again, gets

947
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 3: back in the car, and he goes back home and

948
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 3: he rings our office. We know what he's been and

949
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,359
Speaker 3: he rings our office and he said, you're not going

950
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 3: to believe this, but Anna's just rung me on the phone,

951
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 3: and he said, and she's just taken two hundred dollars

952
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 3: out or somebody has just taken two hundred dollars out

953
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 3: of the bank. You can imagine, Gary, we would do high.

954
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: Fives dancing on the tables with that one for well

955
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 1: an investigation, yeah, just about.

956
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 2: But yeah, we were.

957
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 3: It was but you know, it was just it was

958
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 3: such a moment to realize, my god, he really has

959
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 3: done this.

960
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 2: And then it was where are they? So we waited

961
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 2: probably about.

962
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 3: A day a day and a half, hoping that he

963
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 3: would take us, let's say, to where the bodies were,

964
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 3: but that never happened. So we arrested him pretty shortly afterwards. Oh,

965
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 3: the interview.

966
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 2: The interview.

967
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 3: We took him back to the homicide squad officers in

968
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 3: Saint Kilda Road and the interview he chose to make

969
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 3: no comment. Well, that's his right. You know, nothing we

970
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 3: can do about that.

971
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 2: But where were they?

972
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 3: You know, we didn't, We had no idea, but we

973
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 3: knew it was him now anyway, so we did.

974
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: A really did you charge him at this point in time?

975
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 1: You had enough to charge him?

976
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 2: No?

977
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 3: No, they're interviewing him right so that no, he's not

978
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 3: charged at this point. They're interviewing him. And so what

979
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 3: happens is we take the bosses make a really brave decision.

980
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 3: Our priority was to find Anna and Gracie rather than

981
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 3: they weighed up do we want a conviction or do

982
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 3: we want to find them? So they wanted both obviously,

983
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 3: but they had to make a decision. They decided they

984
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 3: wanted to be the only way we could get John

985
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 3: to talk was to bring his family in. So, of

986
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 3: course there are the chants that the court would find

987
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 3: that they were police. You know, we were using them.

988
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,240
Speaker 1: As agent for the police.

989
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 3: Correct, And he hadn't been cautioned all that sort of stuff.

990
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 3: And that's what I mean. It was a decision what's

991
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 3: more important, and the boss has made the decision it

992
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 3: is more important to find Anna and Gracie than get

993
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 3: a conviction. So what we did was but anyway, that's

994
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 3: up to the courts, isn't it to decide whether we did.

995
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: There's discretionary powers in the courts to the judge's discretion.

996
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and we were hoping, Oh, it was a

997
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,919
Speaker 3: chance that we had to take anyway. So we bring

998
00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 3: the parents in and we show them just as snippet

999
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 3: of him going to the bin, because of course they

1000
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 3: couldn't believe it. John, our you know, our lovely son.

1001
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 3: But when they saw that, they realized that we weren't

1002
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 3: playing games, that this was you know, this is what

1003
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 3: we thought, and it was pretty much confirmed, and we

1004
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 3: wanted to know where the bodies were. So we left

1005
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 3: them in with John for probably about an hour and

1006
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 3: they came out and that's when they said, he'll talk

1007
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 3: to you, okay, and Gary he talked He did the

1008
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 3: interview full and like he told, he took hours to

1009
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:39,280
Speaker 3: tell what had happened.

1010
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, all the admissions and the proofs.

1011
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 3: But Gary to listen because of course the team were

1012
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 3: behind the two way mirror, and to listen to it

1013
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 3: because we were all sitting there and you know, the

1014
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 3: big bosses had come in. The ac came in and

1015
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 3: we were all sitting watching this interview. How the guys

1016
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 3: Rocky and Kenno that did the interview they had daughters

1017
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 3: Gracie's age themselves. I don't know how they did it.

1018
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:15,959
Speaker 3: But he spoke like he was he killed an ant

1019
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 3: on the footpath. It was just the most Oh, it

1020
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 3: was chilling and in a nutshell. He said that Anna

1021
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 3: was moody and controlling and that was it.

1022
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 1: That was his reason, reason.

1023
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 3: Moody and controlling, and that he could think of no

1024
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 3: other way.

1025
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 2: He just had to do it.

1026
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 3: But it was pre planned because he had been to

1027
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 3: the fishing shop. He got a couple of spears, he

1028
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 3: bought a chainsaw, he bought tarps.

1029
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 2: He knew what he was going to do.

1030
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, have you ever wondered what goes on behind

1031
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: the headlines of a gang war or shooting. Then you

1032
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 1: need to listen to crim City joined crime reporters Mark

1033
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 1: Murray and Josh Hamrahan as they uncovered the details of

1034
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 1: crimes unfolding on Sydney streets and share the stories that

1035
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: don't make the papers. The latest season of crim City

1036
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 1: is out now. Listen early and ad free on Crime

1037
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 1: x plus on Apple Podcast Today. How did he kill them?

1038
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 3: So he said in this interview, just like I'm talking

1039
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 3: to you now. So he says, you know, Anna was

1040
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 3: giving me the shits this particular night. I had a scotch,

1041
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 3: got a bit of courriage up and I went down

1042
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 3: to the shed, the got the spear gun and I

1043
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 3: went upstairs and I spared her in the head. But

1044
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 3: this is what we had to listen to. And so

1045
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 3: he speared her and then he dragged her downstairs and

1046
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 3: buried her in the yard. And then after a day

1047
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 3: he thought they're going to find that with the chainsaw,

1048
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 3: he dug her up, cut her up, cut her cut

1049
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 3: her torso her legs and arms, et cetera, put her

1050
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 3: in a garbage bag and threw her out with the

1051
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 3: household rubbish. Now this is he's just, you know, just

1052
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 3: talking like this.

1053
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 1: This is this is what I did.

1054
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 2: Yep.

1055
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 3: And then of course the dread came when Rocky or

1056
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 3: Keno go so and we hear all about Anna, right,

1057
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 3: and then also what happened with Gracy anyway, So he

1058
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 3: he didn't know what to do with Gracie, but he thought,

1059
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 3: he kept thinking, I can't deal with this. Gracie needs

1060
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 3: to be with her mum. So he takes little Gracie

1061
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 3: down to the fishing shop. There's CCTV footage of him

1062
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 3: holding her little hand and he walks up to the

1063
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:57,919
Speaker 3: counter and yeah, I'll have that spear there, and I'll

1064
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 3: have a couple of extras there. Takes them back to

1065
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 3: the house. Gracie goes to bed that night in her cot.

1066
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 1: Look, I think, oh, it's chilling. We're talking about a crime,

1067
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 1: horrendous crime, and you know, sometimes people don't need to

1068
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 1: hear all the details. But yeah, when it's said and done,

1069
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 1: lives have been taken, a lady and a child's lives

1070
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: just so brutally. But how did he kill the child?

1071
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 3: So Gracey's asleep again. He has a couple of scotches,

1072
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 3: needs a bit of bravado and he goes downstairs. He

1073
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 3: gets the spear gun and he loads it and he

1074
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 3: shoots Gracie in the head, but it doesn't kill her,

1075
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 3: so he gets another spear, spares her again. She's screaming, obviously,

1076
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 3: spares her again. She's still alive. He's got three spears.

1077
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 3: He uses the third spear, she is still alive. He

1078
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 3: takes one of the spears out of her head, reloads,

1079
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 3: and that fourth one kills her. M It's beyond words, isn't.

1080
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,360
Speaker 1: He I'm lost for words on it. The real we're

1081
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 1: both worked in homicide. You hear some horrible things and

1082
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 1: when it's breaken down with that, that's what we're talking about.

1083
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 1: That's why people, why detectives pursue these people who are

1084
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 1: capable of crimes like that, Like you can't you can't

1085
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: even comprehend it.

1086
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 3: And as if that's not bad enough, he then throws

1087
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 3: her in a garbage bag mhm, and throws her out

1088
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 3: in the rubbish.

1089
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1090
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 3: I can remember they had a bit of a break

1091
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 3: during this interview, and I can remember going into the

1092
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 3: ladies bathroom with another detective another a lady obviously, and

1093
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 3: I remember putting my head in my hand and I

1094
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 3: was crying. I just I just couldn't. We both were.

1095
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 3: And you know, there was an AC in there, an

1096
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:13,440
Speaker 3: Assistant commissioner watching all this, and everyone was the same, like,

1097
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 3: oh my god. And I remember one of the detectives

1098
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 3: next to me, the AC put his hand on her

1099
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 3: shoulder and I thought, please don't put your hand on

1100
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 3: my shoulder because in comfort, because I thought I will

1101
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 3: absolutely lose it. Thank god he didn't. So but then,

1102
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 3: of course, is the dread they're in.

1103
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 2: They're in a tip.

1104
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've searched tips for bodies and it's not a

1105
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 1: nice experience and you've literally got to go through you

1106
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 1: can't do it nicely. You've literally got to go through

1107
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 1: all the rubbish people have discarded. But I know with

1108
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 1: this one, Norell, if you could just tell us that

1109
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 1: it was searching for days and days and days it

1110
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 1: maybe you were the one that found the bags of

1111
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 1: the bodies in it. Do you want to just tell

1112
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 1: us briefly about that.

1113
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny. It was costing about half a million

1114
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 3: dollars a day. And in the end the bosses said

1115
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 3: on the eleventh, this is the tenth day, and they said,

1116
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 3: we're going to have to pull up stumps tomorrow. We

1117
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 3: just can't do it. And you know what, Gary, I

1118
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 3: don't know why, but from the minute we started searching,

1119
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 3: I know this sounds a bit funny, but I knew

1120
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,680
Speaker 3: i'd find her. I knew i'd find one of them.

1121
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 3: I just I was that determined to make sure that

1122
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 3: one or both of them weren't going to wind their

1123
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 3: life in a filthy, rat infested as best as ridden tip, cold, wet, windy. Oh,

1124
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 3: it was shocking. It was about July, I think by

1125
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 3: this stage. And anyway, so the last day comes and

1126
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 3: it's I don't know, nearly morning tea time, and you

1127
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 3: know we're the big.

1128
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 2: Front end.

1129
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 3: What's that thing called the front Later, Yeah, I saw

1130
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 3: that many blue bags because that's what we're looking for,

1131
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 3: a blue bag, and I never want to see a

1132
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 3: blue bag again. I saw thousands of blue bags, and

1133
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 3: we had to check every single blue bag. And this

1134
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 3: one it comes up, it digs it up, and I

1135
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:30,160
Speaker 3: hold it because I don't want him to you to

1136
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 3: ruin if it does contain anything. Anyway, it's up the

1137
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 3: top of the sort of mound that he'd sort of

1138
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 3: done this with all the with the rubbish, and you

1139
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 3: had to sort of scramble up the top and go

1140
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 3: through it all anyway, this blue bag, I open it

1141
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 3: and I see a kitchen glove and a few and

1142
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,960
Speaker 3: I just sort of and I went to go back down,

1143
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 3: and I thought, I don't reckon that was a glove.

1144
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 3: So I go back and it's an arm, a human arm.

1145
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 2: So I knew then, obviously.

1146
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:11,479
Speaker 3: And it was an adult, so I knew that i'd

1147
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 3: sound Anna. And the euphoria that I felt in finding

1148
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:27,920
Speaker 3: her was almost indescribable. And everyone comes from everywhere and

1149
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 3: we're all hugging and we're all crying and we're all

1150
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 3: someone and it was just lovely in a way terrible,

1151
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:35,600
Speaker 3: but it was just.

1152
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what you're saying, the real and like

1153
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 1: the people, yeah, they think when you're telling a story

1154
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 1: this and you felt you found the body. This is

1155
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 1: just the nature of policing. This is how you have

1156
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 1: to survive policing. And you're looking for bodies. And I've

1157
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 1: been in situations just like that, where you find the body,

1158
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:01,680
Speaker 1: you carry sadness the whole time. At that particular point

1159
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:03,920
Speaker 1: in time, you feel like you've done your job and

1160
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: you exactly you're bringing. I never say closure with homicide

1161
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 1: because it just people don't get it. But you bring

1162
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 1: a degree of peace that the bodies have been found.

1163
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:18,000
Speaker 3: And that's a very good point. I just felt so

1164
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 3: Initially it was euphoria that I'd found it, but it

1165
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 3: didn't take long, maybe thirty seconds, and then I thought,

1166
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 3: pardon me, that means a little grace is around it somewhere,

1167
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 3: and that was a dread that I could hardly bear.

1168
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 3: We wait for so they call crime scene, and of

1169
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 3: course everybody goes up to the caravan where the cup

1170
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 3: of tea two hundred, we call it the caravan with

1171
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 3: the meals and everything. And we were waiting for crime

1172
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 3: scene and one of my colleagues said, come on, phrase,

1173
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 3: we're going up for a coffee. And you know what, Gary,

1174
01:06:55,560 --> 01:07:00,240
Speaker 3: I couldn't leave her. Yeah, I sat with that bag.

1175
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 3: Of course I didn't look. I mean I looked away,

1176
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:06,920
Speaker 3: but I just thought, how could I leave her like

1177
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:10,760
Speaker 3: I'd found her? And I just sort of couldn't leave

1178
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 3: her alone anymore.

1179
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 1: Again, that's Norell. That's that that empathy and caring nature.

1180
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 1: It just seems so brutal when you find the discarded body.

1181
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 1: And I can understand that feeling that you just feel

1182
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:26,520
Speaker 1: like you're abandoning this poor person, this poor lady, just

1183
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 1: in this rubbish tip. So yeah, heavy stuff.

1184
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 3: And I never and I've got to say you said before,

1185
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 3: I need to correct her. I didn't find Gracey. I

1186
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:40,520
Speaker 3: thought that afternoon. I think the next day we went

1187
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 3: back down to begin looking for Gracy. And what I

1188
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 3: thought was just amazing. I was dreading finding Gracy. I

1189
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 3: just hoped that I wasn't going to be there person. Yeah,

1190
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 3: but I can remember we called it time and we

1191
01:07:57,360 --> 01:07:59,400
Speaker 3: were going to go back the next day. But as

1192
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 3: we were walking looking back, like this is at four

1193
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 3: o'clock in the afternoon, and it was really windy and

1194
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 3: everything was blown around. Would you believe there are these

1195
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:14,440
Speaker 3: photos blown around? And one of the detectives picks up

1196
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:17,759
Speaker 3: the photo and he looks at it and he says

1197
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 3: to me, do you recognize her? And I didn't, but

1198
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:28,920
Speaker 3: apparently it was Anna's mum, So yeah, yeah, So I

1199
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 3: didn't go back the next day. I'm not sure why.

1200
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 3: I think I would have used any excuse in the

1201
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:35,759
Speaker 3: world not to because I didn't believe that I could

1202
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 3: handle it. But anyway, they found little Gracey and now

1203
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 3: they are at peace. Little Gracey and Anna are at

1204
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:47,280
Speaker 3: peace over in New Zealand on Anna's mum's property.

1205
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:52,920
Speaker 1: Okay, well that's some consolation for the mother. But look,

1206
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 1: that's I won't say typical, because there's no typical homicide investigation,

1207
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:00,439
Speaker 1: but the way you describe that, I think if you

1208
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:02,800
Speaker 1: work in that sort of very long enough, these are

1209
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 1: the type of cases that you get. So thank you

1210
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:09,519
Speaker 1: for explaining that. So, John, the bodies were found. John

1211
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 1: was convicted of these horrendous crimes. How long was he

1212
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 1: sentenced to?

1213
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 2: Not long enough?

1214
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, he got thirty three years.

1215
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:20,800
Speaker 1: Thirty three years, yeah.

1216
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 3: Which you know is going to be an old man

1217
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:25,519
Speaker 3: when he gets out. His life's over. You know, if

1218
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 3: he doesn't ever breathe the air that we breathe. You know,

1219
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 3: there's not many there's not many people I feel like

1220
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:34,639
Speaker 3: that about, but John Sharp one of them.

1221
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 1: I understand. We'll take a break here. I'm finding our

1222
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 1: chat fascinating. When we come back to part two, we're

1223
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:42,720
Speaker 1: going to talk about more of you, more of your

1224
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:46,160
Speaker 1: cases and how your career came to an end, and

1225
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:50,120
Speaker 1: the toll that policing takes on you and everything else.

1226
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 1: So we'll join you back here shortly thank you. It

1227
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:58,320
Speaker 1: is