1 00:00:03,230 --> 00:00:06,320 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,140 Sean Aylmer: We've spoken before about the number of women on boards 3 00:00:09,140 --> 00:00:12,080 Sean Aylmer: in Australia. As of last year, women made up 31.3 4 00:00:12,740 --> 00:00:17,600 Sean Aylmer: per cent of directors on S&P/ASX 200 companies. It's significantly 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,620 Sean Aylmer: up from previous years, but women are obviously still underrepresented. 6 00:00:21,980 --> 00:00:24,620 Sean Aylmer: In the legal profession, on the other hand, the story's 7 00:00:24,630 --> 00:00:28,040 Sean Aylmer: a lot more encouraging. New research reveals that 53 per 8 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,979 Sean Aylmer: cent of solicitors in Australia are now female, with more 9 00:00:30,980 --> 00:00:34,670 Sean Aylmer: women than men working as lawyers in every state and territory. 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,370 Sean Aylmer: What's more, women are coming into the legal profession at 11 00:00:37,370 --> 00:00:40,610 Sean Aylmer: a rate of two for every new male lawyer. These 12 00:00:40,610 --> 00:00:43,130 Sean Aylmer: are findings from research commissioned by the Law Society of 13 00:00:43,130 --> 00:00:46,490 Sean Aylmer: New South Wales on behalf of the Conference of Law Societies. 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,190 Sean Aylmer: The CEO of the Law Society of New South Wales 15 00:00:49,190 --> 00:00:51,660 Sean Aylmer: is Sonja Stewart. Sonja, welcome to Fear and Greed. 16 00:00:51,979 --> 00:00:53,630 Sonja Stewart: Thanks very much, Sean, for having me. 17 00:00:53,870 --> 00:00:55,880 Sean Aylmer: So what's happening? How can it be? 18 00:00:57,020 --> 00:00:59,900 Sonja Stewart: Yeah, this has been very interesting in terms of for the 19 00:00:59,900 --> 00:01:03,410 Sonja Stewart: first time ever, there's more female than male solicitors across Australia. 20 00:01:03,410 --> 00:01:06,830 Sonja Stewart: So we collect this information, the Law Society of New 21 00:01:06,830 --> 00:01:10,459 Sonja Stewart: South Wales, on behalf of all of Australian bodies that 22 00:01:10,459 --> 00:01:15,330 Sonja Stewart: issue practising certificates to lawyers across the nation. And this trend, 23 00:01:15,350 --> 00:01:17,959 Sonja Stewart: you know, we've been doing it for ten years, collecting 24 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,930 Sonja Stewart: this data. When we started, women made up 46 per 25 00:01:20,930 --> 00:01:24,770 Sonja Stewart: cent and now it's 53 per cent of all lawyers 26 00:01:24,770 --> 00:01:27,890 Sonja Stewart: across Australia. So the trend was sort of happening. But 27 00:01:27,890 --> 00:01:30,619 Sonja Stewart: for the first time, it's every state and territory that 28 00:01:30,620 --> 00:01:33,869 Sonja Stewart: that's happened. So while we collect the data, you know, 29 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,130 Sonja Stewart: we don't drill into the reasons, but there's probably five 30 00:01:37,130 --> 00:01:39,020 Sonja Stewart: things I can sort of check in with you about when 31 00:01:39,300 --> 00:01:42,080 Sonja Stewart: we think about that trend line. I think the first one, Sean, 32 00:01:42,620 --> 00:01:46,670 Sonja Stewart: is a general trend around women's workforce participation, and that's 33 00:01:46,670 --> 00:01:49,170 Sonja Stewart: been one of the biggest productivity gains for our country. 34 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,490 Sonja Stewart: The second is that there's a lot more women going 35 00:01:52,490 --> 00:01:55,880 Sonja Stewart: to university. So the Grattan Institute, you know, in a 36 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:00,020 Sonja Stewart: report fairly recently, has said that since 1987, there were 37 00:02:00,020 --> 00:02:03,559 Sonja Stewart: more women studying in universities across Australia than men. But 38 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,340 Sonja Stewart: for our profession in 1993, that's when women started taking 39 00:02:07,340 --> 00:02:09,859 Sonja Stewart: over in terms of law graduates. So you can see 40 00:02:10,070 --> 00:02:13,340 Sonja Stewart: that general trend of women entering the workforce, women at 41 00:02:13,340 --> 00:02:16,100 Sonja Stewart: higher rates of education. I think the third thing is 42 00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:20,300 Sonja Stewart: around not just our profession, but across Australia, workplaces really 43 00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:24,019 Sonja Stewart: thinking about how do we be female and family friendly and, 44 00:02:24,020 --> 00:02:26,960 Sonja Stewart: you know, bodies like us, the Law Society and our equivalents, 45 00:02:27,260 --> 00:02:31,130 Sonja Stewart: think about the levers we have, like, you know, encouraging diversity, 46 00:02:31,130 --> 00:02:33,920 Sonja Stewart: working at charters for the advancement of women. And I 47 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,280 Sonja Stewart: think the final thing I would say around this trend 48 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:42,560 Sonja Stewart: around women is the technological advances which allow flexibility. And 49 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,290 Sonja Stewart: that's just not a female thing, that it's a male thing. 50 00:02:45,290 --> 00:02:48,710 Sonja Stewart: But it's probably born to a more significant impact on women, 51 00:02:48,710 --> 00:02:52,580 Sonja Stewart: particularly with family and caring responsibilities. So that's what we 52 00:02:52,580 --> 00:02:54,619 Sonja Stewart: think at this stage is behind that trend. 53 00:02:54,950 --> 00:02:58,579 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So do we know where the women solicitors are? 54 00:02:58,580 --> 00:03:01,880 Sean Aylmer: Are they equally represented throughout up and down the totem pole? 55 00:03:02,389 --> 00:03:06,530 Sonja Stewart: Yeah. So that's quite interesting in terms of where they 56 00:03:06,530 --> 00:03:08,989 Sonja Stewart: are because our data is just who's got the practising 57 00:03:08,990 --> 00:03:12,620 Sonja Stewart: certificate and what sort of law they're studying. So we 58 00:03:12,620 --> 00:03:16,970 Sonja Stewart: do know where they are. So when solicitors enter the profession, 59 00:03:16,970 --> 00:03:20,030 Sonja Stewart: they either generally do one of three things. They either 60 00:03:20,030 --> 00:03:23,330 Sonja Stewart: go into private practice. So that's where you might think 61 00:03:23,330 --> 00:03:26,060 Sonja Stewart: about somebody in a law firm, somebody that might be 62 00:03:26,060 --> 00:03:31,220 Sonja Stewart: doing conveyancing or estate planning or family law. You go 63 00:03:31,220 --> 00:03:34,580 Sonja Stewart: into a corporation and a lot of corporations get their 64 00:03:34,580 --> 00:03:38,150 Sonja Stewart: legal advice in-house rather than outsourcing, or you go into 65 00:03:38,150 --> 00:03:41,270 Sonja Stewart: the government in the legal sector. So roughly 70 per 66 00:03:41,270 --> 00:03:43,250 Sonja Stewart: cent of all solicitors are in the private. So it's 67 00:03:43,250 --> 00:03:46,610 Sonja Stewart: still very large part. 20 per cent go into corporation 68 00:03:46,610 --> 00:03:50,170 Sonja Stewart: and 10 per cent go into government in the legal sector. 69 00:03:50,420 --> 00:03:53,660 Sonja Stewart: So in terms of where the women are going and 70 00:03:53,930 --> 00:03:58,120 Sonja Stewart: particularly asking us about the totem pole and leadership, we're 71 00:03:58,130 --> 00:04:01,100 Sonja Stewart: on a journey just as everybody else. So the best 72 00:04:01,100 --> 00:04:03,680 Sonja Stewart: thing that we can do is look at where they are, 73 00:04:03,830 --> 00:04:06,440 Sonja Stewart: where they are the principal. So that's like a leader. It's a 74 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,250 Sonja Stewart: very significant practising certificate they have. So in terms of 75 00:04:10,250 --> 00:04:13,490 Sonja Stewart: large law practices, one per cent of all private law 76 00:04:13,490 --> 00:04:17,180 Sonja Stewart: practices that that makes up that, sort of across Australia, 77 00:04:17,330 --> 00:04:19,760 Sonja Stewart: but 11 per cent of private practitioners were working in 78 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,180 Sonja Stewart: those firms. But the principal, only 41 per cent of 79 00:04:23,180 --> 00:04:26,359 Sonja Stewart: them were principals. So we know that that's something that 80 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,790 Sonja Stewart: needs to be done in terms of women becoming more 81 00:04:28,790 --> 00:04:31,880 Sonja Stewart: senior in those areas. So still some work to be 82 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,570 Sonja Stewart: done there, but we're not Robinson Crusoe in that in terms of other professions. 83 00:04:36,260 --> 00:04:39,320 Sean Aylmer: So if they're a bit underrepresented in leadership, given the 84 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,560 Sean Aylmer: trend and you said since 1993, more women have gone 85 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,560 Sean Aylmer: to university to do law than men, you would imagine 86 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,620 Sean Aylmer: that that should increase over time and that gap should 87 00:04:48,620 --> 00:04:49,130 Sean Aylmer: be narrowed. 88 00:04:49,730 --> 00:04:52,339 Sonja Stewart: That would be the hypothesis that you would strongly want 89 00:04:52,339 --> 00:04:55,190 Sonja Stewart: to test. So particularly with a lot of work being 90 00:04:55,190 --> 00:04:58,070 Sonja Stewart: done around talent pipelines, where do you see talent? How 91 00:04:58,070 --> 00:05:01,220 Sonja Stewart: do you nurture talent? How do you remove bias? So 92 00:05:01,220 --> 00:05:03,810 Sonja Stewart: that would be the expectation that that should follow that 93 00:05:03,810 --> 00:05:08,370 Sonja Stewart: trend into becoming more senior in House, more senior government 94 00:05:08,370 --> 00:05:13,060 Sonja Stewart: lawyers and taking over those leadership roles in private practice. 95 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:14,220 Sonja Stewart: That's what you'd want to be seeing. 96 00:05:14,460 --> 00:05:18,270 Sean Aylmer: So when you have equal representation, do you have more 97 00:05:18,300 --> 00:05:22,620 Sean Aylmer: younger female solicitors vis a vis the older age groups? 98 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,120 Sonja Stewart: Yes, yes, so that is the case. So just talking about ages, 99 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,530 Sonja Stewart: as I said, we've been collecting this data for 10 years. 100 00:05:29,529 --> 00:05:32,430 Sonja Stewart: So the mean age of all solicitors hasn't really changed 101 00:05:32,430 --> 00:05:35,280 Sonja Stewart: like it's 42 years. But what we look at is 102 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,240 Sonja Stewart: men and women, which is what you were interested in. 103 00:05:37,260 --> 00:05:42,720 Sonja Stewart: So females are younger, by 39 years and males are 46 years. So, 104 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,719 Sonja Stewart: you know, that's a difference of seven years. But like 105 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,719 Sonja Stewart: most professions, we're one where we've got a younger cohort 106 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,110 Sonja Stewart: coming in and an older cohort as well like the 107 00:05:52,110 --> 00:05:55,950 Sonja Stewart: biggest growth is in that 65 plus age group where 108 00:05:56,130 --> 00:05:59,860 Sonja Stewart: that's increased 59 per cent as a cohort since 2014. 109 00:05:59,860 --> 00:06:03,000 Sonja Stewart: So that reflects the broader population. I guess the other 110 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,580 Sonja Stewart: thing I would say is that because the richness is 111 00:06:05,580 --> 00:06:07,890 Sonja Stewart: in this data in terms of where there might be 112 00:06:07,890 --> 00:06:10,200 Sonja Stewart: some of the younger solicitors. So the Northern Territory and 113 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,810 Sonja Stewart: the ACTU are a bit younger and the South Australians, 114 00:06:12,810 --> 00:06:15,960 Sonja Stewart: a little bit older on average. But females are younger 115 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,510 Sonja Stewart: than men on the mean in this data that we've collected. 116 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,470 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so why are women going into law? All my 117 00:06:22,500 --> 00:06:25,440 Sean Aylmer: nephews who are in law, no nieces but nephews who 118 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,400 Sean Aylmer: do law. And certainly, even when I went through law, 119 00:06:28,450 --> 00:06:31,800 Sean Aylmer: law is really hard, particularly in those first five or 120 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,280 Sean Aylmer: six years, perhaps the first 20 years. Why do you think 121 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:36,360 Sean Aylmer: more women are going into it? 122 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,110 Sonja Stewart: Yeah, so the law is very interesting because, you know, 123 00:06:40,140 --> 00:06:42,330 Sonja Stewart: if you're coming from straight from university, you do a 124 00:06:42,330 --> 00:06:45,330 Sonja Stewart: double degree. I mean, you can do the legal admission board, 125 00:06:45,330 --> 00:06:47,580 Sonja Stewart: which is shorter. You tend to do that as a graduate. 126 00:06:47,580 --> 00:06:50,070 Sonja Stewart: So as you said, you know, you're picking a five 127 00:06:50,070 --> 00:06:52,700 Sonja Stewart: year degree. It's quite hard to get into. There is 128 00:06:52,710 --> 00:06:55,200 Sonja Stewart: a cost to get into it. I think it's seen 129 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,289 Sonja Stewart: as a really good degree because the skills you get 130 00:06:58,290 --> 00:07:05,420 Sonja Stewart: in terms of analysing information, synthesising a lot of data, problem-solving, negotiating, influencing, communicating. 131 00:07:05,430 --> 00:07:08,250 Sonja Stewart: So I think it's a really great degree. And then, 132 00:07:08,250 --> 00:07:11,070 Sonja Stewart: you know, reflecting on my own experience, if you like 133 00:07:11,070 --> 00:07:14,280 Sonja Stewart: solving problems and you like helping people, the law is 134 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,340 Sonja Stewart: a very good place to be. And I think, you know, 135 00:07:17,340 --> 00:07:20,400 Sonja Stewart: people are attracted to that. You know, women are ambitious. 136 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,710 Sonja Stewart: They're studying hard and wanting to do well. 137 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,350 Sean Aylmer: It's funny, I used to run the newsrooms at Fairfax 138 00:07:25,350 --> 00:07:27,900 Sean Aylmer: and when we were always looking for trainees and cadets, 139 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,590 Sean Aylmer: it's amazing how many lawyers applied. And it really was 140 00:07:31,590 --> 00:07:33,510 Sean Aylmer: about as good a grounding as you could get for 141 00:07:33,510 --> 00:07:36,270 Sean Aylmer: a journalist coming in because they were smart and normally 142 00:07:36,270 --> 00:07:39,570 Sean Aylmer: they were pretty inquisitive and they mostly they could write 143 00:07:39,570 --> 00:07:42,000 Sean Aylmer: well as well. And I always thought it was almost 144 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,750 Sean Aylmer: the greatest general degree and no disrespect to studying law 145 00:07:45,750 --> 00:07:48,030 Sean Aylmer: and that but it pretty much took you into anywhere 146 00:07:48,180 --> 00:07:48,860 Sean Aylmer: you wanted to go. 147 00:07:49,410 --> 00:07:52,650 Sonja Stewart: And I agree with that. I've heard people comment that 148 00:07:52,650 --> 00:07:54,840 Sonja Stewart: it's sort of like the new arts degree, you know, 149 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,420 Sonja Stewart: like in terms of if you're thinking about a little 150 00:07:57,420 --> 00:07:59,370 Sonja Stewart: bit back in the day that an arts degree was 151 00:07:59,370 --> 00:08:01,470 Sonja Stewart: seen as that sort of early entry point into a 152 00:08:01,470 --> 00:08:04,200 Sonja Stewart: career and, you know, about studying and then moving on 153 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,930 Sonja Stewart: to something else. But it absolutely is. And, you know, 154 00:08:06,930 --> 00:08:09,570 Sonja Stewart: we've got great law schools here in New South Wales. 155 00:08:09,570 --> 00:08:12,840 Sonja Stewart: We've also got some feeders. So our students and members 156 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,510 Sonja Stewart: of the profession come from the 15 law schools, as 157 00:08:15,510 --> 00:08:18,770 Sonja Stewart: well as from Bond University in the north and ANU 158 00:08:18,780 --> 00:08:21,270 Sonja Stewart: from Canberra. But, you know, we've got good law schools. 159 00:08:21,270 --> 00:08:23,730 Sonja Stewart: It's a good grounding degree. And you can do so 160 00:08:23,730 --> 00:08:26,040 Sonja Stewart: many diverse things with a law degree as well. So 161 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:27,690 Sonja Stewart: I think that's why it's also interesting. 162 00:08:28,110 --> 00:08:30,120 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Sonja. We'll be back in a minute. 163 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,240 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is CEO of the Law Society 164 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,420 Sean Aylmer: of New South Wales, Sonja Stewart. So looking just beyond 165 00:08:40,420 --> 00:08:43,179 Sean Aylmer: gender in the report, what's the most common area of 166 00:08:43,179 --> 00:08:44,820 Sean Aylmer: law that solicitors are now practising? 167 00:08:45,130 --> 00:08:48,070 Sonja Stewart: So it's still the private. It's still you know, you 168 00:08:48,070 --> 00:08:50,530 Sonja Stewart: can go into private sector, you can go into an 169 00:08:50,530 --> 00:08:53,650 Sonja Stewart: in-house counsel, you can go into government legal sector. But 170 00:08:53,650 --> 00:08:57,490 Sonja Stewart: private is still very strong, making up 70 per cent, roughly 171 00:08:57,490 --> 00:09:01,179 Sonja Stewart: of all lawyers go into private sector. That's where you 172 00:09:01,179 --> 00:09:04,059 Sonja Stewart: can you know, if you're in a small community as 173 00:09:04,059 --> 00:09:07,020 Sonja Stewart: a practitioner, you tend to have a more general practice, Sean, 174 00:09:07,330 --> 00:09:11,890 Sonja Stewart: but then you can become deeply specialised and also accredited. So, 175 00:09:12,070 --> 00:09:14,709 Sonja Stewart: you know, when you're talking about inquisitive minds, one of 176 00:09:14,740 --> 00:09:16,689 Sonja Stewart: the things about our profession is you have to keep 177 00:09:16,690 --> 00:09:19,810 Sonja Stewart: on learning every year. You have to devote time to 178 00:09:19,809 --> 00:09:23,740 Sonja Stewart: continually learning. And there's people who become accredited specialists so 179 00:09:23,740 --> 00:09:27,160 Sonja Stewart: even a higher benchmark to their peers around family law, 180 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:32,740 Sonja Stewart: around criminal law, around estate succession planning, so the bulk of people 181 00:09:32,740 --> 00:09:35,109 Sonja Stewart: still go into private, which is more the one on 182 00:09:35,110 --> 00:09:37,900 Sonja Stewart: one sort of client facing work that they do. 183 00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:41,140 Sean Aylmer: So the law has cracked the nut, so to speak, 184 00:09:41,140 --> 00:09:44,230 Sean Aylmer: and got an equal representation, certainly at the lower levels 185 00:09:44,530 --> 00:09:48,010 Sean Aylmer: for male females. What can the rest of corporate Australia 186 00:09:48,130 --> 00:09:50,410 Sean Aylmer: learn from that, particularly given less than a third of 187 00:09:50,410 --> 00:09:52,730 Sean Aylmer: directors on ASX boards are women? 188 00:09:53,380 --> 00:09:55,719 Sonja Stewart: So I would say that we are on a journey 189 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,390 Sonja Stewart: as a profession and wouldn't want any listeners to say 190 00:09:58,390 --> 00:10:01,450 Sonja Stewart: that we are thinking that we are too much ahead 191 00:10:01,450 --> 00:10:03,370 Sonja Stewart: of the pack because we're also on a journey. I 192 00:10:03,370 --> 00:10:06,430 Sonja Stewart: think the things that have happened here is that general 193 00:10:06,429 --> 00:10:08,980 Sonja Stewart: sort of economic push and driver that's happening across our 194 00:10:08,980 --> 00:10:13,240 Sonja Stewart: country around women's participation and into higher education. So really 195 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,720 Sonja Stewart: thinking about that and those relationships with the deans or 196 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,020 Sonja Stewart: the places where the pipeline emerges, I think is really important. 197 00:10:20,309 --> 00:10:22,449 Sonja Stewart: I think the other thing is there's been such a 198 00:10:22,450 --> 00:10:26,920 Sonja Stewart: concerted effort by employers and legal firms across Australia to 199 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,160 Sonja Stewart: think really deeply about diversity and inclusion. So where is 200 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,220 Sonja Stewart: that talent? Not just female-male , but, you know, other 201 00:10:33,220 --> 00:10:37,990 Sonja Stewart: broader cultural diversity? And do you make your workplaces amenable 202 00:10:37,990 --> 00:10:42,640 Sonja Stewart: to identifying and retaining and nurturing that talent? And I 203 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,520 Sonja Stewart: think the third thing that's happened at bodies such as 204 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,210 Sonja Stewart: the Law Society and replicated with my counterpart CEOs across 205 00:10:49,210 --> 00:10:52,950 Sonja Stewart: Australia is thinking about what we can do in this space. 206 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,319 Sonja Stewart: So in New South Wales, for example, Sean, a Charter 207 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,569 Sonja Stewart: for the Advancement of Women was released a number of 208 00:10:58,570 --> 00:11:01,630 Sonja Stewart: years ago and then re-released. So this is things like 209 00:11:01,630 --> 00:11:05,920 Sonja Stewart: leaders of firms signing up to things such as removing 210 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,059 Sonja Stewart: bias from their processes, ensuring and we actually added some 211 00:11:10,059 --> 00:11:13,030 Sonja Stewart: things to the charter this year, such as ensuring that 212 00:11:13,030 --> 00:11:17,100 Sonja Stewart: you've got transparent and robust complaints mechanisms around sexual harassment. 213 00:11:17,110 --> 00:11:19,630 Sonja Stewart: So you're undertaking to do that. And we've had three 214 00:11:19,630 --> 00:11:23,140 Sonja Stewart: hundred firms so far signing up to that. So it 215 00:11:23,140 --> 00:11:26,079 Sonja Stewart: takes a village, I guess. And I think that there 216 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,480 Sonja Stewart: is some things that can be replicated on that. And 217 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,760 Sonja Stewart: we're not resting on our laurels. We've still got more 218 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,490 Sonja Stewart: to do. But we've got to listen to this data, 219 00:11:33,490 --> 00:11:36,940 Sonja Stewart: which is showing a significant trend that we need to 220 00:11:36,940 --> 00:11:38,610 Sonja Stewart: be planning for and listening to. 221 00:11:39,270 --> 00:11:42,819 Sean Aylmer: It's interesting, law is always kind of put up there as almost 222 00:11:42,820 --> 00:11:45,030 Sean Aylmer: above the law, as silly as that sounds. But in 223 00:11:45,130 --> 00:11:47,949 Sean Aylmer: the last 12 months, there's been some dreadful stories that's 224 00:11:47,950 --> 00:11:50,950 Sean Aylmer: come out of the law in terms of sexual harassment particularly. 225 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,459 Sean Aylmer: Is it something that you think is more prevalent in 226 00:11:54,460 --> 00:11:57,460 Sean Aylmer: the law or is it just part of society? How 227 00:11:57,460 --> 00:12:00,670 Sean Aylmer: far are you making steps to get through some of 228 00:12:00,700 --> 00:12:02,590 Sean Aylmer: the challenges that you've had in the last 12 months? 229 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,030 Sonja Stewart: Yes, it's an issue, unfortunately, that does exist. And I 230 00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:10,209 Sonja Stewart: want to acknowledge that. It is important to acknowledge that 231 00:12:10,210 --> 00:12:13,809 Sonja Stewart: this issue does exist. You know, I gave the example 232 00:12:13,809 --> 00:12:17,620 Sonja Stewart: about the charter, which we see as a really important thing, 233 00:12:17,620 --> 00:12:20,079 Sonja Stewart: but that's just one element of it. The other thing 234 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,160 Sonja Stewart: that we're doing is making it really clear on information 235 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,150 Sonja Stewart: outward facing about victims, about how do they make reports. 236 00:12:28,150 --> 00:12:31,030 Sonja Stewart: And to organisations that might be small, how do you 237 00:12:31,030 --> 00:12:34,870 Sonja Stewart: have good guidelines for this? So we're not shying away 238 00:12:34,870 --> 00:12:38,950 Sonja Stewart: from it. It's inappropriate. You ask the question, is there 239 00:12:38,950 --> 00:12:43,809 Sonja Stewart: something quite unique to our profession? There's been a number 240 00:12:43,809 --> 00:12:47,530 Sonja Stewart: of studies, and particularly what you're referring to around the judiciary. 241 00:12:47,890 --> 00:12:51,070 Sonja Stewart: And it's highlighted a couple of factors in terms of 242 00:12:51,309 --> 00:12:54,390 Sonja Stewart: the nature of the work, particularly in that, you know, 243 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,840 Sonja Stewart: when I talked about that significant cohort, longer hours, power 244 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:04,179 Sonja Stewart: imbalances in some situations. But this is seriously being looked at. 245 00:13:04,179 --> 00:13:07,660 Sonja Stewart: And importantly, there's some inroads to be making and this 246 00:13:07,660 --> 00:13:10,360 Sonja Stewart: data is really important in helping us plan for that. 247 00:13:10,870 --> 00:13:13,360 Sean Aylmer: You're not only the first woman appointed to be CEO 248 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,730 Sean Aylmer: of the Law Society, but you're also the first indigenous 249 00:13:15,730 --> 00:13:18,910 Sean Aylmer: person to hold that role. What sort of message does 250 00:13:18,910 --> 00:13:21,280 Sean Aylmer: that send, do you think, within the legal profession and 251 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:22,150 Sean Aylmer: then more broadly? 252 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,179 Sonja Stewart: Yeah, I'm very mindful of that. I mean, I arrived 253 00:13:25,179 --> 00:13:27,670 Sonja Stewart: in this role at the height of what you're alluding 254 00:13:27,670 --> 00:13:30,700 Sonja Stewart: to around a lot of attention in the profession in 255 00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:34,240 Sonja Stewart: September last year and also around the Black Lives Matter. So. 256 00:13:34,620 --> 00:13:37,380 Sonja Stewart: I guess within the profession, I think it's just a 257 00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:40,110 Sonja Stewart: further indicator that people are looking at where is the 258 00:13:40,110 --> 00:13:42,780 Sonja Stewart: best person for the job and trying to remove bias 259 00:13:42,780 --> 00:13:45,060 Sonja Stewart: from that. And I'm really grateful for the counsel of 260 00:13:45,059 --> 00:13:48,240 Sonja Stewart: the Law Society to see, you know, the talent beyond 261 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,610 Sonja Stewart: the other thing about being a first woman and the 262 00:13:50,610 --> 00:13:54,510 Sonja Stewart: first Aboriginal person. So looking for talent and grabbing at 263 00:13:54,510 --> 00:13:57,420 Sonja Stewart: where you can. In terms of the rest of the country, 264 00:13:57,900 --> 00:14:00,450 Sonja Stewart: there's two sorts of reflections that I sort of have 265 00:14:00,450 --> 00:14:03,890 Sonja Stewart: on that, Sean. Growing up, there's some things that you 266 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:06,080 Sonja Stewart: are taught and one of them is respecting your elders. 267 00:14:06,090 --> 00:14:08,430 Sonja Stewart: And so that's always recognising that we stand on the 268 00:14:08,429 --> 00:14:11,070 Sonja Stewart: shoulders of those that went before us. And the second 269 00:14:11,070 --> 00:14:13,380 Sonja Stewart: thing is you're part of the world's oldest surviving culture, 270 00:14:13,390 --> 00:14:15,120 Sonja Stewart: but we're only here for a short period of time. 271 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,880 Sonja Stewart: So how do we leave legacy and impact and leave 272 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,130 Sonja Stewart: things in a better place than which we found them 273 00:14:20,130 --> 00:14:22,860 Sonja Stewart: particularly caring for country? So in terms of the broader 274 00:14:22,860 --> 00:14:26,460 Sonja Stewart: Australian dialogue or community, I mean, time will tell. But I 275 00:14:26,460 --> 00:14:29,550 Sonja Stewart: think what it shows is that my generation benefited from 276 00:14:29,550 --> 00:14:34,170 Sonja Stewart: the opening up of education. There were people, Uncle Charlie Perkins, 277 00:14:34,170 --> 00:14:38,100 Sonja Stewart: Bob Blair, Pat O'Shane, that went and studied law. And 278 00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:40,500 Sonja Stewart: then there was in the late 80s, if I might 279 00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:43,050 Sonja Stewart: reveal my age, there was an opening up of education. 280 00:14:43,050 --> 00:14:45,150 Sonja Stewart: So I'm part of a cohort that was the first to 281 00:14:45,150 --> 00:14:49,440 Sonja Stewart: finish university. The first went and also high school. And 282 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,590 Sonja Stewart: it just shows the benefit of that and removing bias 283 00:14:52,590 --> 00:14:57,150 Sonja Stewart: and discrimination and letting people flourish and reach their aspirations. 284 00:14:57,150 --> 00:15:00,150 Sonja Stewart: And I think that's a story that Australia should be 285 00:15:00,150 --> 00:15:00,980 Sonja Stewart: proud of. Really. 286 00:15:01,290 --> 00:15:03,750 Sean Aylmer: Absolutely. Sonja, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 287 00:15:04,020 --> 00:15:04,650 Sonja Stewart: Thank you very much, Sean. 288 00:15:05,190 --> 00:15:07,800 Sean Aylmer: That was Sonja Stewart, CEO of the Law Society of 289 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:08,730 Sean Aylmer: New South Wales. 290 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:10,980 Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join me 291 00:15:10,980 --> 00:15:13,350 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full Fear and Greed podcast with 292 00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:16,540 Sean Aylmer: all the business news you need to know. I'm Sean Aylmer. 293 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:17,340 Sean Aylmer: Enjoy your day.