1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Approchee production. 2 00:00:18,001 --> 00:00:20,681 Speaker 2: What I tried to do was get a transfer from 3 00:00:20,841 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: the the Army reserved to SETHS was known then into 4 00:00:25,041 --> 00:00:25,881 Speaker 2: the regular army. 5 00:00:26,601 --> 00:00:29,401 Speaker 1: But I wasn't able to do that. 6 00:00:29,481 --> 00:00:32,881 Speaker 2: I had to get a discharge and enlist, so I thought, oh, well, 7 00:00:32,921 --> 00:00:36,201 Speaker 2: fuck that. So I stole two submachine guns and I 8 00:00:36,241 --> 00:00:38,601 Speaker 2: cut in down robbery and fuck later. 9 00:00:39,161 --> 00:00:40,041 Speaker 1: You know what I ended up in? 10 00:00:41,161 --> 00:00:44,041 Speaker 3: What are welcoming to the world of bank robberies? 11 00:00:45,881 --> 00:00:48,521 Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, well, I guess that's an app way 12 00:00:48,521 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 2: to put it. In October sixty nine, I was arrested 13 00:00:52,281 --> 00:00:56,041 Speaker 2: in charge of ticking outs of the Armed Robbery Castile 14 00:00:56,081 --> 00:00:58,841 Speaker 2: and and possessed a submachine gun. 15 00:00:59,641 --> 00:01:03,561 Speaker 1: I went to jail. Paramatta was the first jail. 16 00:01:03,321 --> 00:01:06,401 Speaker 2: I hit, and he didn't actually like the thought of 17 00:01:06,441 --> 00:01:08,121 Speaker 2: burning jail for any amount of time. 18 00:01:09,241 --> 00:01:12,841 Speaker 1: I tried to escape. Cut a long story short, I 19 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:14,721 Speaker 1: ended up the ABS bom Bay. 20 00:01:15,121 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: The a BS just for listeners observation observation section right, and. 21 00:01:20,401 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 3: This is somewhere for hardened men that you know can't 22 00:01:23,521 --> 00:01:24,041 Speaker 3: be sort of. 23 00:01:25,881 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 2: How that came about, Shimo was this. I was walking 24 00:01:29,161 --> 00:01:31,321 Speaker 2: up and down the yard and the blake came from 25 00:01:32,161 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 2: Callan Park called Billy Sutton. He's dead now. 26 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: Bill. 27 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 2: Anyway, I was walking up and down in the yard 28 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,441 Speaker 2: with another couple of crimson Bills started extolling the values 29 00:01:44,481 --> 00:01:48,161 Speaker 2: of going to a rat house going to the psych center, right, 30 00:01:48,601 --> 00:01:54,361 Speaker 2: and he painted this picture that, you know, gardens and 31 00:01:54,481 --> 00:01:57,561 Speaker 2: lawns and no bars on the window. And I thought, yeah, 32 00:01:57,561 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: well that's for me. If I can get there, i'd 33 00:01:59,561 --> 00:02:03,401 Speaker 2: just walk away. So the idea was to get to 34 00:02:03,441 --> 00:02:07,681 Speaker 2: the rat house. And I said to Billy, I said, well, 35 00:02:07,681 --> 00:02:08,881 Speaker 2: how did you get? He said, oh, I made he 36 00:02:08,921 --> 00:02:12,361 Speaker 2: shouldlready to do his make out your suicidal and I'll 37 00:02:12,401 --> 00:02:15,961 Speaker 2: take you straight to the psych center next door, because 38 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:17,921 Speaker 2: they had a psychiatric center next door to Paramount of 39 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: job going. Oh yeah, okay, and you know I see 40 00:02:21,121 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 2: hounded him out again. And you know what's the best 41 00:02:23,441 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: way to make it? He committed to you. Because I've 42 00:02:25,401 --> 00:02:27,641 Speaker 2: got no intention of knocking myself. 43 00:02:27,761 --> 00:02:28,081 Speaker 1: He said. 44 00:02:28,081 --> 00:02:30,121 Speaker 2: Oh, I should just swallow a couple of razor blades, 45 00:02:30,161 --> 00:02:32,481 Speaker 2: he said, and when the X ray you guts, it 46 00:02:32,481 --> 00:02:33,121 Speaker 2: will show up. 47 00:02:33,161 --> 00:02:35,801 Speaker 1: And I think, oh, you try to commit sue and 48 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,641 Speaker 1: bang away you go. So I did that. 49 00:02:38,281 --> 00:02:40,121 Speaker 3: So you've got a couple of razor bades down the 50 00:02:40,121 --> 00:02:42,161 Speaker 3: back of you throw it in the indo your stomach. 51 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: Now you wrap them up in cellophane tape and swallow them. Okay, 52 00:02:47,641 --> 00:02:50,841 Speaker 2: so I did that. Anyway, the male murse came up 53 00:02:50,841 --> 00:02:55,361 Speaker 2: to the to the cell that night and the cell black. 54 00:02:55,841 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: The cell mate said, oh, look he's try to commit suicide. 55 00:02:58,441 --> 00:03:01,481 Speaker 2: Blah blah blah blah blah. Anyway, they get me out 56 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 2: and they put me in the in the back of 57 00:03:03,441 --> 00:03:06,041 Speaker 2: an ambulance. And the way we go, so I think, oh, 58 00:03:06,081 --> 00:03:09,081 Speaker 2: I'm on my way home because I think I get 59 00:03:09,121 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 2: to the nut. 60 00:03:09,561 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: Farm and that'sh it. I'm going. 61 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,321 Speaker 2: Anyway, we travel for off for about twenty minutes of 62 00:03:14,361 --> 00:03:17,201 Speaker 2: we can't be going to Paramatta next door because that's 63 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,241 Speaker 2: next door to the child van. Keeps on going, keeps 64 00:03:20,281 --> 00:03:22,841 Speaker 2: on going, and I'm a handcuffed a screw on the 65 00:03:22,841 --> 00:03:27,081 Speaker 2: back of the ambulance. Anyway, I hear this clang, bang clang, 66 00:03:27,441 --> 00:03:30,721 Speaker 2: What the fuck's that? Anyway, next minute they opened up 67 00:03:30,761 --> 00:03:33,601 Speaker 2: the door and the observation section in the bay. Get 68 00:03:33,601 --> 00:03:36,161 Speaker 2: it out ere you Prickingly, they started to belt me 69 00:03:36,201 --> 00:03:38,241 Speaker 2: with a couple of battons and from me and they 70 00:03:38,281 --> 00:03:39,361 Speaker 2: sell fuck this. 71 00:03:40,201 --> 00:03:42,521 Speaker 1: I don't like this idea. So they kept me in 72 00:03:42,561 --> 00:03:44,041 Speaker 1: there for about fourteen days. So I. 73 00:03:45,641 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 2: Passed through the razor blades and they put me back 74 00:03:48,481 --> 00:03:52,761 Speaker 2: in the mainstream, back up and up in seven we 75 00:03:52,841 --> 00:03:57,321 Speaker 2: and that was my first attempt to escape. I guess 76 00:03:57,521 --> 00:04:01,081 Speaker 2: what I better explain to you and your listeners is this. 77 00:04:02,001 --> 00:04:04,241 Speaker 2: Back in those days, the three card and the rules 78 00:04:04,241 --> 00:04:07,681 Speaker 2: of any prisoners was you don't kill a screw, you 79 00:04:07,721 --> 00:04:11,961 Speaker 2: don't a soldier screw, You don't escape, and you don't 80 00:04:12,001 --> 00:04:15,161 Speaker 2: try to escape, don't participate in a rite. Now, if 81 00:04:15,201 --> 00:04:18,121 Speaker 2: you breach any one of those five rules, then you're 82 00:04:18,401 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 2: you're in for a lot of trouble. Yes, anyway, they 83 00:04:22,481 --> 00:04:24,961 Speaker 2: were the main cardinal sins as far as the Prion 84 00:04:25,041 --> 00:04:28,041 Speaker 2: system was concerned. I was up at the MR and 85 00:04:28,041 --> 00:04:29,761 Speaker 2: I tried to escape from up there by digging a 86 00:04:29,801 --> 00:04:32,601 Speaker 2: block out of a wall. I came and stuck. Ended 87 00:04:32,681 --> 00:04:35,201 Speaker 2: up doing fourteen days in the Ghostlan and at the 88 00:04:35,241 --> 00:04:39,241 Speaker 2: Ghostla solitary confinement. In those days, it was under one 89 00:04:39,281 --> 00:04:43,321 Speaker 2: wing at Long Bay and the cells were pitched black. 90 00:04:43,721 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 2: So they threw him in there for twenty eight days. 91 00:04:46,761 --> 00:04:51,481 Speaker 2: And what they fed you is, you've got some water 92 00:04:51,601 --> 00:04:54,961 Speaker 2: and half away for bread a day, and you've got 93 00:04:54,961 --> 00:04:56,561 Speaker 2: a good meal for lunch. 94 00:04:57,961 --> 00:04:58,561 Speaker 1: And that was it. 95 00:04:58,641 --> 00:05:01,281 Speaker 2: So you've got your milk or your water and your 96 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,161 Speaker 2: bread in the morning, your water and your bread of 97 00:05:03,201 --> 00:05:07,001 Speaker 2: a night and a meal of of a lunchtorm and 98 00:05:07,041 --> 00:05:10,561 Speaker 2: you never saw daylight. You were you were locked in 99 00:05:10,561 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: this cell. 100 00:05:10,961 --> 00:05:11,481 Speaker 1: It was dark. 101 00:05:11,561 --> 00:05:15,481 Speaker 2: And after a while, you know, you get bored. You think, 102 00:05:15,561 --> 00:05:18,361 Speaker 2: and you know, you wonder, you know what you're going 103 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,041 Speaker 2: to do. And I found this friend, just a little 104 00:05:21,081 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: plastic button, and became. 105 00:05:22,921 --> 00:05:24,681 Speaker 1: A friend of mine. And what I used to do 106 00:05:24,761 --> 00:05:25,401 Speaker 1: is I'd throw the. 107 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,601 Speaker 2: Button up in the air in the dark, and then 108 00:05:27,641 --> 00:05:30,521 Speaker 2: for the next two three fourteen fifteen days, I'd crawl 109 00:05:30,561 --> 00:05:33,041 Speaker 2: around on all hands and moose to find the button. 110 00:05:33,041 --> 00:05:34,801 Speaker 1: When I found the button and I'd kick it again. 111 00:05:35,161 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: And that's what kept me saying in there, chasing his 112 00:05:37,961 --> 00:05:38,521 Speaker 1: in the dark. 113 00:05:38,921 --> 00:05:39,161 Speaker 3: Wow. 114 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,641 Speaker 1: Anyway, the twenty eighth. 115 00:05:42,481 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 2: Day came and they let me out of the pan 116 00:05:45,401 --> 00:05:48,681 Speaker 2: and the sun hit me eyes and nearly blinded me. 117 00:05:49,801 --> 00:05:52,841 Speaker 2: So that was my first that was my first taste 118 00:05:52,841 --> 00:05:58,001 Speaker 2: of solitary confinement. That was in nineteen seventy. 119 00:05:58,801 --> 00:05:59,281 Speaker 1: I'd come in. 120 00:06:00,121 --> 00:06:04,961 Speaker 3: Yeah, I stund aprof of it. Take them off. 121 00:06:07,641 --> 00:06:16,881 Speaker 2: To stand your pockets out first, just standy. Later that year, 122 00:06:18,041 --> 00:06:22,401 Speaker 2: well in June, I fronted court and I escaped again. 123 00:06:22,681 --> 00:06:25,801 Speaker 2: I belted the copper and jumped out of a prison 124 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,761 Speaker 2: van and bouldered down the street in the middle of Sydney. 125 00:06:28,521 --> 00:06:30,481 Speaker 3: On the way to court all the way back. 126 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,761 Speaker 2: Now when the court. When the van pulled up at 127 00:06:34,161 --> 00:06:37,921 Speaker 2: the appeals court, because I was sentenced there, they happened 128 00:06:37,961 --> 00:06:39,721 Speaker 2: at the back of the van. I just belded him 129 00:06:39,721 --> 00:06:42,521 Speaker 2: and bowlded. I ran about seven or eight blocks and 130 00:06:43,281 --> 00:06:45,601 Speaker 2: cut a long story short. This cop stuck with me. 131 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,161 Speaker 2: I didn't know until later. He was a bit of 132 00:06:48,161 --> 00:06:48,681 Speaker 2: a marathon. 133 00:06:48,761 --> 00:06:51,401 Speaker 3: Run warmed me. 134 00:06:53,081 --> 00:06:55,561 Speaker 2: I got recaptured, I got all back to the court. 135 00:06:55,761 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 2: I got ten years. I got me ten years for 136 00:06:57,921 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: the armed robberies, and then I got another charge on 137 00:07:01,241 --> 00:07:02,041 Speaker 2: me for the escape. 138 00:07:02,161 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 3: It ten years back then, was life, wasn't it? 139 00:07:04,161 --> 00:07:05,481 Speaker 1: Well, it was close enough to it. 140 00:07:05,601 --> 00:07:07,481 Speaker 3: Yes, So that was your brick. 141 00:07:08,361 --> 00:07:12,121 Speaker 2: We'll see back back then five ten years. Yeah, you 142 00:07:12,201 --> 00:07:14,321 Speaker 2: never heard of double digits. You never heard of twenties 143 00:07:14,321 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: and thirties. 144 00:07:14,881 --> 00:07:16,521 Speaker 1: They did exist, Okay. 145 00:07:16,361 --> 00:07:18,961 Speaker 2: So you know ten was a hell of a long time, 146 00:07:19,041 --> 00:07:21,881 Speaker 2: you know, and it was hard to see the end 147 00:07:21,921 --> 00:07:26,481 Speaker 2: of the tunnel anyway. I got another six months for 148 00:07:26,521 --> 00:07:28,561 Speaker 2: the escape on top of the ten, so they gave 149 00:07:28,601 --> 00:07:30,921 Speaker 2: me ten years. I had to do ten years and 150 00:07:31,521 --> 00:07:34,441 Speaker 2: six months for the escape from Belton the Copper. Later 151 00:07:34,521 --> 00:07:37,401 Speaker 2: that year, in November, I found a way out of 152 00:07:37,401 --> 00:07:39,641 Speaker 2: the bay, out of the Central Industrial Prison. 153 00:07:39,881 --> 00:07:42,601 Speaker 1: In those days, it was called the State Penitentiary, Okay. 154 00:07:43,121 --> 00:07:46,281 Speaker 2: And these guys they used to collect all the bread 155 00:07:46,601 --> 00:07:48,761 Speaker 2: and the garbage for the pigs out in the farm, 156 00:07:48,761 --> 00:07:51,521 Speaker 2: because they had a farm at the bay, and they 157 00:07:51,561 --> 00:07:53,401 Speaker 2: had a little trolley and they used to wheel the 158 00:07:53,441 --> 00:07:57,921 Speaker 2: trolley out out through the gate. I watched this for 159 00:07:57,921 --> 00:08:01,081 Speaker 2: for a couple of months, and there was a routine. 160 00:08:01,521 --> 00:08:04,121 Speaker 2: They'd pick up the slops, wheel it out. They'd go 161 00:08:04,201 --> 00:08:07,241 Speaker 2: to the gate cane at the gate, and at the 162 00:08:07,321 --> 00:08:10,441 Speaker 2: gate they had these big spikes and they used to 163 00:08:10,481 --> 00:08:11,881 Speaker 2: stab all the bags. 164 00:08:12,241 --> 00:08:15,241 Speaker 1: But there was one screw. He never did it. He 165 00:08:15,321 --> 00:08:17,081 Speaker 1: used to talk that he used to chat. 166 00:08:16,921 --> 00:08:19,841 Speaker 2: The two blokes on the trolley right, and he for 167 00:08:19,841 --> 00:08:21,921 Speaker 2: some reason, he never used to stab the bags. It's 168 00:08:21,961 --> 00:08:24,481 Speaker 2: too busy chatting up the two crimson. I thought, well, 169 00:08:24,761 --> 00:08:26,321 Speaker 2: all I got to do is work out a way 170 00:08:26,321 --> 00:08:29,401 Speaker 2: to get in those bags the day that he's on. 171 00:08:29,681 --> 00:08:32,361 Speaker 3: And this is an observation that you've made by just 172 00:08:32,441 --> 00:08:34,401 Speaker 3: watching being in the prison and just. 173 00:08:34,801 --> 00:08:37,121 Speaker 2: That's exactly right, and just watching what goes on around 174 00:08:37,121 --> 00:08:39,561 Speaker 2: you see in jail, you've got plenty of time to 175 00:08:39,641 --> 00:08:43,721 Speaker 2: sit and watch, you know, that's all you do. Body language, 176 00:08:44,041 --> 00:08:47,281 Speaker 2: minute movement, you pick it up. It just becomes second. 177 00:08:47,121 --> 00:08:48,361 Speaker 3: Nation, become a master. 178 00:08:49,721 --> 00:08:52,441 Speaker 1: Yeah it is. It's like a it's like a censor. 179 00:08:52,801 --> 00:08:53,001 Speaker 3: Yep. 180 00:08:53,521 --> 00:08:55,921 Speaker 1: Anyway, cut a long story short. 181 00:08:56,641 --> 00:08:58,961 Speaker 2: I got I managed to find out what days is 182 00:08:59,161 --> 00:09:03,321 Speaker 2: this screw was on, and one Saturday morning, I got 183 00:09:03,321 --> 00:09:06,921 Speaker 2: some civilian clothes, got into the bags, got wheeled out 184 00:09:07,241 --> 00:09:10,201 Speaker 2: out the gate, and of course this screw started talking 185 00:09:10,201 --> 00:09:12,481 Speaker 2: to the two blakes about you know, whatever you wanted 186 00:09:12,481 --> 00:09:14,441 Speaker 2: the mag about, and they. 187 00:09:14,361 --> 00:09:16,841 Speaker 1: Just pushed the trolley through. I was out. I was free. 188 00:09:17,161 --> 00:09:20,041 Speaker 2: So I got out and got over the outer wall, 189 00:09:20,481 --> 00:09:22,681 Speaker 2: made me way into Sydney, made a phone call and 190 00:09:22,801 --> 00:09:24,961 Speaker 2: some people came and picked me up and took me out. 191 00:09:24,881 --> 00:09:26,921 Speaker 1: The West Suburbs. That night. 192 00:09:26,961 --> 00:09:29,721 Speaker 2: It was it was an exhilarating feeling just to get 193 00:09:29,721 --> 00:09:30,481 Speaker 2: over the outer wall. 194 00:09:30,761 --> 00:09:32,801 Speaker 3: I can imagine I know what that sip's like like. 195 00:09:32,921 --> 00:09:33,881 Speaker 3: You just don't get out there. 196 00:09:35,361 --> 00:09:38,961 Speaker 2: It's just an incredible feeling. Anyway, as I said, I 197 00:09:39,001 --> 00:09:42,881 Speaker 2: got out and I was a snooper to the place 198 00:09:43,321 --> 00:09:46,001 Speaker 2: at Billewood. Anyway, the people were looking laugh h me, 199 00:09:46,001 --> 00:09:47,841 Speaker 2: and they came in on the Sunday morning. He came 200 00:09:47,841 --> 00:09:50,041 Speaker 2: back and he was white as a sheet. He said, 201 00:09:50,041 --> 00:09:51,761 Speaker 2: Bernie said, they must know you're here. I said, what 202 00:09:51,801 --> 00:09:53,961 Speaker 2: are you talking about. He said, they've got a mobile 203 00:09:53,961 --> 00:09:57,481 Speaker 2: police headquarters in the park. And I thought, Jesus Christ, 204 00:09:58,281 --> 00:10:00,361 Speaker 2: did they get on to me so quick? He showed 205 00:10:00,361 --> 00:10:04,201 Speaker 2: me the front pages in those days at a local 206 00:10:04,561 --> 00:10:07,281 Speaker 2: or a son Monday pay per caller daily, the Sunday Mirror, 207 00:10:07,521 --> 00:10:09,041 Speaker 2: Sunday Mirror, and the Sunday Telegraph. 208 00:10:09,081 --> 00:10:10,721 Speaker 1: Anyway, on the front 209 00:10:10,761 --> 00:10:15,121 Speaker 2: Page was Craze Rapist Escapes by and my Mugshop is 210 00:10:15,121 --> 00:10:21,881 Speaker 2: on the front page.