WEBVTT - Digging up the Dead | 6 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:06.359 All right, my name is Christine. I am the surviving 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:09.680 sibling of David Phillips. 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:13.800 David was the eldest of the two Phillips siblings. Their 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.800 parents ran a small corner shop in the southeast Melbourne 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:21.160 suburb of Mentone. David joined the police force, Christine became 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:26.200 a nurse, so an average middle class family until nineteen 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:26.840 ninety three. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.720 So it was May ninety three when we got a 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:35.960 phone call from ethel Ball to tell us that David 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.519 was under suspicion of murder. 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.519 What ethel Ball, by the way, is at There's a 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:45.560 second ex wife and Lachelle's mum. 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.519 Not long after that I was at we I got 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:53.080 a phone call from a detective Giles up the Townsville. 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.960 C just questioned who I was and then asked me 0:00:57.560 --> 0:00:59.720 did I think he was capable of murder? 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.520 This was just six weeks after les Ball had gone missing, 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.240 and even then it seems police were already looking at 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.720 David and for his sister Christine. 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:12.119 The call was a shock. 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.319 Well, we dropped, capite. I heard in my hand. 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:18.679 She knew he had gotten involved in something that wasn't 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:22.240 above board in his Melbourne policing days. She knew he 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:25.560 could threaten violence. She knew he could even threaten to 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:30.679 kill people, but actually murdering les, an innocent pensioner was 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:32.280 a totally different accusation. 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.080 Detective Giles asked me to keep a diary by the phone. 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:41.039 I said, why, we haven't seen him or heard from 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:43.920 the family for years. He said he will ring. 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:48.440 You said that we won't, But the detective was right. 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.440 David, who had little contact with his Melbourne family since 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:56.760 moving to Queensland, did phone Christine and she needed that 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.320 diary by the phone to make a record of her 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.200 brief converse with him, and he. 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:03.400 Said, don't hang up, it's me. 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:04.840 So I hung up. 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.680 Those big brothers don't tell little sisters what to do. 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:12.480 So he rang back and I said, what the hell 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:17.000 have you done? He said, what do you think? I 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:21.839 don't know what toype answer that was. I said, what 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.720 is going on? He said, I can't talk. He said, 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.680 I'm being bugged and you're probably being bugged as well. 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:30.240 I bugged. 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.920 David meant he knew police were listening to his phone calls, 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.040 so that police officer, when he called you, asked if 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.080 you thought your brother was capable of. 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.160 Murder thirty years on May, I ask you the. 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:46.120 Same question, do you think your brother was capable of murder? 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:47.960 Back then? 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:55.560 Probably not, But having listened to everyone's stories over the 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.440 thirty four years, who knows? 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.919 It's important You know that Christine isn't completely convinced her 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.120 brother murdered las, So when you hear what she's about 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.000 to reveal, you understand that she's not out to try 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:15.080 and make David look guilty. Because while Christine isn't sure 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:18.400 if David murdered Laz, she knows that her brother was 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:20.880 capable of violence. She saw it herself. 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:24.240 I went up to Queensland to see the kids with 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:29.119 a friend, a surprise visit. He was extremely extreme, annoyed 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:31.680 that we didn't let them know they were coming. I 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:34.680 just wanted to surprise the kids because we were very close, 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:39.560 very close. We stayed in our motel, we went to 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.280 visit the kids. There's a hole in the plaster wall? 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:43.280 Is there all? 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:46.839 What's happened here? Someone full now? I can't remember which 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.560 one said it. So Daddy came home angry. 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.960 But the most shocking example of David's potential for violence 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.800 came in nineteen ninety two, a year before Les went missing. 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.440 Christine was getting married and decided to do the right 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.520 thing invite David and the Phillips family to her wedding. 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:10.160 We sent out our wedding invitations. I sent there's eight 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.960 weeks ahead. Give them the opportunity to say yea if 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.479 they could afford it. Now they've got four daughters, my 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:22.479 husband had a niece and nephew. I'm not keen on 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:27.320 having flower girls, so I said, we won't have flower girls. 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.760 So I let him know. I said, but every family child, 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:33.080 it's going to have a special job. Had it all 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:37.200 worked out, I told him that. So he received the 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.200 invitation must have sparked something off in him. 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:44.679 Christine was with her mum when the phone rang. 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:51.440 And I could hear him verbally abusing so loud derogatory 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:57.719 language and said, I will be down to shoot you all, 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:04.960 Christine's fiance and the whole lot of you. He was 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:12.279 extremely abusive, foul language and threatened to fly down and 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.560 shoot us all on our winning day, every single one 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:17.839 of us he goes. 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:21.160 He threatened to fly down to Melbourne and. 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.599 Shot you, yep, and everyone at the wedding. That's what 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.960 I heard, he was screaming through the phone. I just 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:32.240 took the phone offer. Yeah, she just stood there. She 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:37.919 goes what just happened? I said, ignore it? Wow she 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:40.800 was Then she met and vomited. I thought, if this 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.200 kills her, I didn't know what I was going to do. 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.400 It didn't because you're a strong lady. My father was 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:53.160 shattered and we just I rang him back up, said 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.920 the invitations null and boyd never want to see you again. 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:01.840 Yeah, threatening to shoot your sister and all the guests 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:06.159 at her wedding is shocking, but it's also so outlandish. 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:10.200 It's tempting to dismiss what David said as an idle threat. 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:15.360 But Christine and David shared a mutual friend, a man 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.960 called Bob, and he didn't think David was joking. Bob 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:24.360 decided to attend the wedding to protect Christine and her 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.400 wedding guests in case David showed up. 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:31.360 And I couldn't figure out why he was sitting at 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.880 the back of the church because I actually told him 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:37.800 what David said. So I said, for Bob, why'd you 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:38.760 sit the back of the church. 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:42.680 Bob responded by rolling up his trouserleg. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.520 He had a gun in his boot, anyally passing out. 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.880 I said what the hell, and he goes, no one's 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.800 going to ruin your day, and he said, I've got 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:55.239 another one after the car seat. 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:59.080 So he took David's threat pretty seriously, and he was 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.400 going to protect you if needed, on your wedding day 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:03.520 from your own brother. 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.839 My parents were absolutely shattered. 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:24.680 It can't be easy talking about your own late brother 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:29.160 in this way. Why do you want it made public? 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:35.640 Oh, I think just falz and for my parents. They 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:39.680 went to heaven thinking that their son's a murderer and 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:43.360 didn't have any answers. I'm actually doing it for them 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:44.840 and Paul Ez. 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:56.000 I'm Joe Townsend and I'm Callum Deness. 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:11.480 This is perfect alibis exchanged. 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.800 As you heard last episode. In twenty twenty three, Coroner 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:34.160 Gallagher accepted Leanne's evidence that David's lying and violence only 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:38.559 began after his stroke in nineteen ninety four, a whole 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:43.880 year after Les went missing. Christine believes the coroner got 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:49.600 that wrong. The coroner seemed to be of the opinion 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:56.800 that David really only turned violent after his stroke. I 0:08:56.840 --> 0:09:00.600 wouldn't think so, but every story you've told us pre 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:04.280 dates his stroke. Did the coroner get that right? 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:09.719 Probably? Not, because if you weren't violent, why would you 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:11.320 bring up and threatened to kill a family. 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:16.960 In our interviews and in police audio, we've heard a 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.920 chorus of people from different sides of the family describe 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:27.120 David as a violent liar. Greatest liar about him found. 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:31.200 To Yeah, he did have a temper, definitely intimidated by him. 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:33.760 I heard him say, well, if you can't do anything, 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:35.400 then break his knees were. 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:36.120 Sitting in the largermen. 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:38.080 I could hear him say on the phone call, We'll 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:39.640 have to get rid of him. 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.199 Right at the start of this podcast, we told you 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.680 that we found clues that coroners and police missed and 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:51.800 that we thought we could prove who murdered Les. So 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:56.200 in this episode, we're laying out our case against David 0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:02.960 Phillips cal We've established that David was violent and a 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:07.640 liar before his stroke. So let's start with when Les 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:12.240 was last seen alive. The coroner found that was Sunday, 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.840 the eighteenth of April, when David, Margaret, and the four 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:19.240 kids left to visit display homes and family friend Tony 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:22.680 Hoyer called by to find Lez, apparently setting off to 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:23.920 catch the train to Brisbane. 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.920 Yeah, so In making that finding, Coroner Gallagher put aside Leanne' 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:31.760 account of seeing Les in hospital, saying it didn't happen, 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:36.000 but Leanne genuinely believed it did, and basically said that 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.720 if you don't discount what Margaret, David and Tony said, 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:42.920 then the eighteenth was the last sighting of Les alive. 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.960 So we've proven David is a liar. We can strike 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.680 his account out. What about Tony Hoyer? 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:54.000 There's two problems with Tony's account, right. First, Tony was 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:57.200 always crystal clear with police in nineteen ninety three that 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.200 he had no idea what day it was that he 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:01.800 saw Les, only that he thought it was a Sunday, 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.760 and police in that first investigation and pretty much ever since, 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.520 have just assumed that he was talking about the eighteenth 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.640 of April. Okay, But in all the different versions of 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.360 that day he's given in all the years since, the 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.720 one thing that he's stuck to is that he has 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.760 no idea what day this alleged sighting happened. 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.079 Right. What's the second problem. 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:24.800 Well, Tony said that Les was on his way to 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.880 catch the train from Townsford to Brisbane. But what the 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.199 coroner seems to have missed is that the train didn't 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.079 run on Sundays, So that's inherently implausible. 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:37.400 Can't have happened exactly. David's alibi was also quite clever 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:41.040 because the kids often went to see display homes it 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:45.480 occurred around Easter holidays, so by assuming this was the eighteenth, 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.480 it suddenly looked like all three adults had the same story. 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:53.120 But if you accept what Tony saw never happened on 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.080 a Sunday, then the whole alibi falls apart. 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:01.080 Yeah, this mistake has kind of haunted this case ever since. 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:05.120 This assumption that Tony corroborated what David and Margaret were saying. 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.760 Right, So if you strike that out, when was the 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:11.640 last time Les was really seen alive? 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.920 Right? So Les made a phone call one evening on Thursday, 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:19.120 the fifteenth of April, to the Phillips house, and one 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:23.280 of David Leanne's daughters and Les's granddaughter, Samantha, picked up 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.720 the phone. She said her granddad sounded angry and wanted 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:30.600 to speak to David. Now, she couldn't recall exactly what 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.839 night it happened, except that her other sister, Rochelle, was 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.680 still in hospital. Margaret also witnessed the call and said 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.520 it happened on a Thursday night and that was when 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:44.280 Rochelle was in hospital, So it corroborated what that other daughter, 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:45.359 Samantha said. 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.840 So we've got him on the Thursday exactly. But the 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:52.480 coroner accepted David's account that the call happened the next night, 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:56.960 on the Friday. They seem to have missed Margaret's statement then. 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.880 And what's even weirder is that David actually didn't stick 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.600 to his story. He later told police this call happened 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:06.880 a whole week before. 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:07.680 Yeah. 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:09.600 Now, I know it sounds like we might be getting 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.840 into the weeds here, but it's actually really important because 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.280 not only does this make that Thursday evening the last 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.680 time Les was heard from alive, but we also think 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:21.840 he was murdered that night, which will come to in 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:24.440 a moment. But before we do that, we need to 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:28.760 talk about money again. Police have always focused on the 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:33.240 thirty one thousand dollars that Les transferredly in and when 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.319 they interviewed her about this, she always sounded defensive. 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:40.960 Okay, so we are aware that your father had leant 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:41.880 you money. 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.199 At his own free will. Next question, Okay, there's. 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.640 A total of thirty one. 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:51.559 Well, we like to talk to you about the fines. 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.679 No need to where the day guy. He gave his 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:58.480 own free will, that's it. No, No, he gave it 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.559 to you. He gave it to me. I'm free will. 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.760 But there's something that everyone missed that block of land 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:09.000 in Townsville. So let's put down a thirty three thousand 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.280 dollars deposit. David and Leanne said that Les was planning 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:14.080 on building a house on that block of land and 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:15.360 then selling it for a profit. 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.400 Yes, but everyone else believed the house was for the 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.080 Phillips to live in as a loan or a gift. 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.640 Margaret and Samantha think Les was planning on living with 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:28.680 the family in that big house, although Lachelle's side of 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:30.160 the family disputes that. 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:32.920 Yes, but David and Leanne's names were actually on the 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.120 building plans, and it was David who paid for those 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.080 plans to be drawn up. In fact, the draftsmen even 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.600 called Les once to double check if he was the 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:43.240 client or if it was David. 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:47.800 So all the evidence suggests that this house was meant 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:48.520 for the Phillips. 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:49.480 Yeah, that's right. 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.400 And we found a statement in a police file, a 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.640 statement that nobody seemed to notice since from the Department 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:59.480 of Veterans Affairs, saying that in December nineteen ninety two, 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.440 Les informed the department that he intended to spend sixty 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.240 thousand dollars building a house on that block of land. 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.840 And Les was a stickler for those sort of things. 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.440 You know, when he bought the house in Cardwell, he 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:15.280 paid for twelve months home insurance upfront, changed his address 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.200 with the government agencies, opened a new bank account. 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.160 Yeah, he was really on top of these things. 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:22.720 And when you add the sixty grand for the home 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:25.760 that everybody believed was going to be for the Phillips 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.760 to the thirty three thousand dollars he put down for 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.760 the block of land itself and the thirty one thousand 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.320 dollars he transferredly in, that's potentially one hundred and twenty 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.440 thousand dollars of Lessus savings that could have been going 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:40.200 to the Phillips. 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:44.120 That's way more money than anyone ever realized was going 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:48.040 their way. And in the nineteen nineties, that's really big 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:49.200 money exactly. 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:52.880 But Less's decision to buy that dream home of his 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.480 in Cardwell meant he couldn't afford to build the Phillips 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.200 a house and would probably have to sell the block 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.400 of land too. In fact, the night he called up 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.360 the Phillips, his bank records show he was still just 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:07.720 short of the money he needed to close the deal 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.440 on that new house in Cardwell. But the police and 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.040 the coroner seemed to have missed this important point. 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:13.480 Ah. 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.880 So that's why this call and when it happened is 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:21.120 so important. Young Samantha, the grandchild, picks up the phone, 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:25.600 she later said to police. He sounded angry and Lez 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.720 wanted to speak to David. At this point, Lez had 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.920 just one working day to get the money he needed 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.920 back from David to complete settlement. It was really crunch time. 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.800 Leanne was in hospital in Brisbane, so he needed David 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.040 to cough up that money he owed Les exactly. And 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:49.440 this phone call is the last time anyone heard Les alive, 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.680 not the Sunday as the coroner believed. 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:56.520 Now, maybe David knew Leanne would wind up the executor 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.640 of Lez's estate, and if Les was dead and couldn't 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.320 go through through with buying that house in Cardwell, that 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.240 would free up seventy thousand dollars and the Phillips could 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:07.760 build their new house and of course they wouldn't have 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.480 to pay back a cent of any of those thousands 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:14.159 of dollars that they owed Les. According to another of 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:18.600 David Leanne's kids, Danielle, after Les vanished, the family actually 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:21.720 tried to go ahead with building that house. This is 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.840 what she told police in twenty eleven. Now she's sitting 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.000 with a detective as a prepare a statement. So it's 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.680 quite noisy. And this piece of audio you're about to 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.440 hear was Laiter handed to the inquest as evidence. 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:34.359 Got that. 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:38.760 Except what I remember with Pierre was he when we 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.240 couldn't build the hats because it was all in his name, 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:47.640 wouldn't real breath point, of course, the lands his name. 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:52.199 So David said, this phone call from Les on the 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:56.640 Thursday actually happened on a Friday. Why would he lie 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.560 about that? I mean, that seems like an insignificant detail, 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:00.240 to be honest. 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.919 Well, it's because by Friday the conspiracy to make it 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.080 appear as if Les was alive was in full swing. 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.480 That afternoon, somebody placed a call to Les's solicitor, claiming 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.080 to be Les, saying he was going to Brisbane to 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.640 visit his daughter, but would be back on Monday for settlement. Now, 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:20.480 the secretary who took that call had never spoken to Les, 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:22.760 so I couldn't tell if it was him. That's not 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:24.920 a trip he could make by train. He wouldn't get 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:27.240 back in time, and it's a fifteen hour drive from 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:28.480 Townsville to Brisbane. 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:33.440 It seems unlikely he'd make that mammoth return journey to Celianne. 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:37.080 She was in hospital for a planned procedure. It wasn't 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.960 a sudden medical emergency, and it just seems weird that 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.560 he'd bother mentioning at all if he was planning to 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.120 be back in time for settlement anyway, that's right. 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.719 I mean, you wouldn't call up your dentist, doctor, your 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.119 lawyer and saying hey, I'm going away, but I'm going 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.440 to be back for this appointment in three days time. 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:54.600 It just doesn't make sense. 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:57.960 Yeah, So the train ticket was booked the next day, 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.199 on the Saturday. We know on the Monday someone forged 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:06.760 as a signature. Our investigation has uncovered that David forged 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.720 a police document to falsely claim he was Australia's most 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.879 decorated cop. So we know he had formed there, and 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.440 we also know that while he was a police officer, 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.879 he attempted to defraud his parents' business out of money 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:20.840 by signing out a loan in their name. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:25.600 And when Bill Nash, the fraud scoad detective, was investigating David, 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.480 he nearly charged him with fraud by deception for pulling 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:33.480 a really low con on a series of motels in Melbourne. 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.400 He would delay paying his bill, claiming he was waiting 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.360 for some sort of windfall, then sneak out the back 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:43.200 door at night. He did this to four different motel businesses. 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.040 And there was something else Bill told us, which is 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:50.040 that while his officers were following David, they also observed 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:55.000 him pulling another con, this time for prescription drugs. I'm 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.600 assuming that if you're doctor shopping, you'd be pretty good 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:02.760 at forging signature and prescription pads. Yes, that's a core 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:04.760 skill set of a doctor shopper, isn't it. 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:08.320 Yes, you somehow have to come across a pad of 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:14.080 prescriptions blank ones. It's not that hard to forge a 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:17.240 doctor script because you can't understand the writing anyway. 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:21.720 So David had a history of defrauding people, of forging 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:26.080 documents and faking signatures, and as a former police officer, 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.240 he knew that the longer he could focus police attention 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.320 in Brisbane, the more time he'd have to get away 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.359 with murder. It'd buy him time to destroy Lester's trailer, 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.720 and when you look at his behavior, he seemed to 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:42.960 constantly be trying to redirect police. At one point, shortly 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:46.240 after Les disappeared, David called the cops up and said 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:48.480 Les could be in tweet Heads or out at gem 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:52.280 Fields at Mossman Gorge. He even insisted that Ed who 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.720 was living on the Sunshine Coast, had something to do 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:55.720 with Les's murder. 0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:59.679 Now, we don't have proof that David was involved in 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.960 dest the trailer, but the two men who separately stumbled 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:07.760 on that burnt out trailer both observed two blokes that 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.400 appeared to be involved. One was a man who looked 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:14.800 to be aged thirty to forty in a white ute, 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:19.119 who was accompanied by another man. At the coronial inquest, 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:23.160 Lachelle's lawyer submitted that the description of that first man 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:26.399 matched David, who was thirty eight at the time and 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:27.600 drove a white ute. 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:29.920 That feels like a bit of a reach. It's such 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:31.040 a vague description. 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:34.440 A guy in his thirties with a white ute lots 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:36.479 of those sort of guys in Townsville. 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:40.560 Could almost be anyone crecently. But going back to that 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:45.000 forged train ticket, could David have actually been the one 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:49.479 to forge Less's signature and collect Lezz's ticket. Surely if 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.320 he was handing over a pension card, he would have 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:53.840 been challenged by the cashier. 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.000 Yeah, I've always wondered about that because it's a huge 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:00.160 risk to take if you're David. But there is that's 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:04.600 another possibility. Margaret, she was staying at the Phillips house 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:07.800 when Les disappeared, and she was in her late sixties 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:11.080 at the time. Now, the name on Less's train ticket 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:12.680 was Leslie R. 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:13.320 Ball. 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:17.679 Yeah, I guess that's a unisex name. If the ticket 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:20.240 was Leslie Ralph Ball, it would tell you that Les 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:24.000 was a man. But Leslie R. Ball could be a 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:27.040 woman's name, and I guess a bored ticket officer would 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:30.480 hardly look twice at an old lady collecting a ticket, exactly. 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:34.360 So I've always wondered if it was David who orchestrated 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:38.400 the scheme and Margaret who collected the ticket. Now, remember 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.879 that fingerprint found in Les's car on the rearview mirror, 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.600 police took fingerprints from David, Leanne and Tony they weren't 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:48.879 a match, but they never took a fingerprint from Margaret. 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:53.600 That's interesting because Margaret's grandkids suspected she knew more about 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:57.159 Les's disappearance than she ever let on. Some of the 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:01.359 kids recall that Margaret didn't attend that outing that was 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:06.440 central to David's alibi, and when they returned home, Margaret 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:07.959 was sweeping out the house. 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:11.720 Yeah, and our favorite Irish cop, Lizz Wick Norton, also 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:14.840 suspected that Margaret may have had more knowledge of the 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:18.480 crime than she'd ever admitted to, And that's partly because 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:21.760 police actually spoke to Margaret in twenty eleven, right before 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:25.200 she died. When they spoke to her, she was with relatives, 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:28.639 and one of those relatives told police that Margaret was 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.480 worried about what questions they would ask and that she 0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:35.439 would go to jail. Police secretly recorded that conversation, and 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:37.959