Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Lincoln Tarot Lynch's earliest memory was watching his dad get
Speaker 1: arrested and fight with police when he was just five
Speaker 1: years old. Police raided his home and his mum was
Speaker 1: put in prison, at rested for the first time. How
Speaker 1: do you think this story is going to end? Well? Today,
Speaker 1: I sit down with the man himself and we find out.
Speaker 1: Lincoln Taro Lynch, Welcome to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: I thank you good to be here.
Speaker 1: Well there's a lot of times that you wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been thinking that you're going to be sitting down talking
Speaker 1: on true podcast. Well, I saw you talk a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago at the I think it was the
Speaker 1: end of year Rainbow Lodge event, which is attended by judges,
Speaker 1: politicians and a whole range cross section of the people,
Speaker 1: and I remember your story from there. It was very powerful.
Speaker 1: So looking forward to sitting down and speaking to youth crime.
Speaker 1: It seems to be on the front page of the
Speaker 1: papers and leads stories on the news across the country,
Speaker 1: not just here in New South Wales. And when you
Speaker 1: get that type of narrative, there's people that push back
Speaker 1: and we need tougher scent and seeing we need crack
Speaker 1: down on youth crime. Do an adult crime, do adult time?
Speaker 1: A lot of ways of approaching it. What's your sense
Speaker 1: in terms of youth crime when you hear that, do
Speaker 1: you agree with it or you think we're approaching it
Speaker 1: from the wrong.
Speaker 2: I would definitely disagree with it, Yeah, but I understand
Speaker 2: why people would I kind of react that way and
Speaker 2: why there is that reaction because I guess it looks
Speaker 2: scary and when you see images in the media of
Speaker 2: you know, the different crimes being committed, and a lot
Speaker 2: of it's been video recorded. It's scary and people want
Speaker 2: to feel safe. And I don't know, when you hear
Speaker 2: youth crime, I remember when I was a kid, it
Speaker 2: was always the youth you use, always being targeted as
Speaker 2: the people who to be scared of. And you know,
Speaker 2: I heard someone talk, it was actually on Vince Talk yesterday,
Speaker 2: the stats on youth crime that they've actually gone down.
Speaker 2: But yeah, the media would say otherwise, and politicians seemed
Speaker 2: to say otherwise. So and in terms of locking them up,
Speaker 2: it just doesn't work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well I know, and that's you know, we're
Speaker 1: really going to dig into it with you about Yeah,
Speaker 1: once you put someone in the system, it's very hard
Speaker 1: for them to break out, absolutely with that, and you're
Speaker 1: being there so you could attest to that. I saw
Speaker 1: the submission you made to the Parliamentary inquiry that was
Speaker 1: into youth justice and detention and I think it was
Speaker 1: established last year, and the one thing that really resonated
Speaker 1: with me that you said in your submission that you
Speaker 1: put in was the system chose prosecution over protection, and
Speaker 1: that really it sort of hit me in your story
Speaker 1: because I've got a bit of an understanding of your story.
Speaker 1: Chose prosecution over protection. Do you want to just break
Speaker 1: that down where you were coming from with that, Well.
Speaker 2: I guess it's in the way it's said. It's like,
Speaker 2: you know, you find a young person and they're having
Speaker 2: contact with the police because they've maybe committed a crime
Speaker 2: or maybe they're doing something they shouldn't be doing, and
Speaker 2: then the reaction is to maybe arrest them. Maybe whether
Speaker 2: that means they go into prison or not, it's another thing.
Speaker 2: But instead of like approaching them and saying, why is
Speaker 2: this kid doing this? Why are they behaving the way
Speaker 2: they are? Why is a ten or eleven year old
Speaker 2: running around so angry, you know, and breaking the law
Speaker 2: when other kids aren't doing that. And it's not because
Speaker 2: that kid's a bad person or they're a criminal at heart.
Speaker 2: It's because there's other things most likely going on at
Speaker 2: home and they probably have been for a long time.
Speaker 2: And whether that's like stuff related to poverty, or whether
Speaker 2: it's related to like addiction at home maybe or other
Speaker 2: factors that are meaning this child doesn't have the same
Speaker 2: opportunities are the children and yeah, and their behaviors that
Speaker 2: are a reflection of that.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think children set out to be bad,
Speaker 1: of course they're not. Inherently you don't you know, you
Speaker 1: don't get it. Crawl out of the coton go, I'm
Speaker 1: going to create in this world. You're your shaped by
Speaker 1: your environment, and we all need the role models and
Speaker 1: parameters to point us in the in the right direction.
Speaker 1: So that's why prosecution over protection really made me think
Speaker 1: about the way we look at things. In your situation
Speaker 1: that we're going to hear about, you needed protection. Prosecution
Speaker 1: wasn't what. You needed someone to put an arm around
Speaker 1: to it and look after you and steer you in
Speaker 1: the right direction. And you didn't didn't get that. Let's
Speaker 1: let's talk about your childhood. Where did you go?
Speaker 2: So? I grew up predominantly in Wollongong. Ye a little
Speaker 2: bit of time in Act, but yeah, most of my
Speaker 2: young life was in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what with family environment, siblings, parents, us through that.
Speaker 2: So my dad was much older than my mom. Like
Speaker 2: when they got together, he was in his late twenties,
Speaker 2: she was seventeen. I think he'd been like, you know,
Speaker 2: doing crime and stuff for some time. And yeah, mett
Speaker 2: mum and she felt pregnant with me, And yeah, she
Speaker 2: left him when I was pretty young, yep, and tried
Speaker 2: to sort of do things byself. So I was mostly
Speaker 2: raised by her. It was just Shan and I most
Speaker 2: of the time. You know, she had boyfriends now and then,
Speaker 2: but yeah, she was a single mom growing up in
Speaker 2: the eighties when that was really frowned upon, and she
Speaker 2: had no support from home either, so she did what
Speaker 2: she could to survive. And sadly that for her meant
Speaker 2: you know that she got tied up in the criminal
Speaker 2: world as well, and you know, selling rugs and this
Speaker 2: kind of thing. So that was the environment I grew
Speaker 2: up in.
Speaker 1: And I've read about. Yeah, your first first memory was
Speaker 1: your father being arrested and fighting. That's your earliest child
Speaker 1: childhood memory. So that would shape the way you think definitely.
Speaker 1: And then at the time, I think you were five
Speaker 1: when your mum got the rest and ended up getting
Speaker 1: pulled away for two years, that's right. Did you have siblings?
Speaker 2: No, it was just me, just me and her.
Speaker 1: Okay, how like I'm trying to imagine that as a
Speaker 1: five year old child. Look back at my children, how
Speaker 1: innocent they are at that age. How did that make
Speaker 1: you feel?
Speaker 2: It's hard for me to know how I felt at
Speaker 2: the time. I can think back to some of my
Speaker 2: behaviors at the time and see the way I was
Speaker 2: acting out, and yeah, it was just it was very confusing,
Speaker 2: and obviously the arrest with Mom I can remember a
Speaker 2: lot more vivid than the one with Dad, and it
Speaker 2: was it was kind of actually something like you'd see
Speaker 2: in the movies, you know, like where they where the
Speaker 2: police kind of all rushed in and ripped the house apart,
Speaker 2: and I just remember that, you know, the house being
Speaker 2: torn apart, and then the next minute Mum was gone,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: So then you're sitting there, probably police looking after you.
Speaker 1: Initially you've never those are the people that from the
Speaker 1: early age you've probably feared because it exactly come stormy
Speaker 1: storming into your house. What what was done with you
Speaker 1: at that point?
Speaker 2: So I stayed with different family members for a while. Yeah,
Speaker 2: some of which were better than others caring for me.
Speaker 2: You know. One was an auntie who was actually really
Speaker 2: good and that was kind of a stable period, I guess,
Speaker 2: you know, she really cared for me and which I
Speaker 2: look back on with some fondness. And another was a
Speaker 2: grandparent who wasn't so it wasn't a good environment.
Speaker 1: When you say that, what type of the type of
Speaker 1: things were happening, Just.
Speaker 2: Just a bit neglect for which messages little kids had
Speaker 2: up and it expected because that was my That was
Speaker 2: the same person that had been abusive to mum as
Speaker 2: well growing up, So it makes sense that he wasn't
Speaker 2: going to be great with me again.
Speaker 1: This is the type of things that just carry on
Speaker 1: from generation to generation. Did you experience any abuse in
Speaker 1: those environments, not just the emotional abuse and neglect? How
Speaker 1: long did you go back to your mom after she
Speaker 1: got out of prison?
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I did. So she did some time in
Speaker 2: prison and then went to rehab for a little bit
Speaker 2: and then we got back together. Kind of interesting stories.
Speaker 2: She was actually meant to do a little bit more
Speaker 2: time in that, but there was the Minister for Corrections
Speaker 2: at the time. I don't know if you remember the
Speaker 2: Rex Jackson. I think his Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, so
Speaker 2: there was a thing where and I can say this
Speaker 2: now she's passed, so it doesn't really matter. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: the people she was working for paid him off to
Speaker 2: have her sense introduced.
Speaker 1: So okay, as bizarre as that sound, my recollection of
Speaker 1: the historical situation. Rex Jackson was at Correctney Services, that's
Speaker 1: the minister, and I think he ended up getting exposed
Speaker 1: for taking money for early releases prisoners.
Speaker 2: And yeah, she benefited from that. Thankful for Mom. She
Speaker 2: was the ones that the ones that benefited.
Speaker 1: Which was well from the fact that she was connected
Speaker 1: to people, had the ability to reach out to the
Speaker 1: minister tells you the sort of the way she was
Speaker 1: living a life.
Speaker 2: Sure does.
Speaker 1: So the period of five five to twelve talk us through.
Speaker 2: Yeah that, you know, look at that period, I kind
Speaker 2: of I really looked up to Mum at that point.
Speaker 2: You know, she was more like an older sister than
Speaker 2: a mum to me. I never called her mum. I
Speaker 2: always called her by her first name, right, I've never
Speaker 2: I never referred to her as mom ever, you know,
Speaker 2: and not until as an adult. And yeah, I looked
Speaker 2: up to her. But she she really suffered, like she
Speaker 2: really suffered with addiction. She had like able car accident
Speaker 2: and had a lot of chronic pain and then you
Speaker 2: know all the abuse and stuff that she had as
Speaker 2: a kid and growing up. I blamed her so much,
Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, absolutely, I was like, why doesn't she
Speaker 2: love me the way I see other people being loved
Speaker 2: or the way you think your parents meant to love you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And it wasn't until I was older and had my
Speaker 2: own problems that you realized. I went, oh, okay, so
Speaker 2: she was just a you know when I thought she
Speaker 2: was an adult, she was in the twenties. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: and she was really suffering too. And that doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that the neglect and abuse didn't happen, but it just
Speaker 2: means to understand you.
Speaker 1: You understand where it's coming from. What about schooling did
Speaker 1: you have it regular schooling? Did you have not?
Speaker 2: Really? School was pretty so we moved around a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, still around the Woollongong.
Speaker 2: Yeah, different act, but every six months we'd move. So
Speaker 2: back then, you know, when you were selling drugs, you
Speaker 2: moved regularly because people would know where you lived, so
Speaker 2: you'd have to move regularly. So for us, we moved
Speaker 2: every six months because of that really, and that was
Speaker 2: either generally to a completely different area.
Speaker 1: Did you have any role models anyone that showed you
Speaker 1: love and direction?
Speaker 2: Not really, like my grandmother really cared for me a lot,
Speaker 2: but yeah, that was something I definitely struggled with, and
Speaker 2: especially male role models. There was there was no voids. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that was something that I definitely struggled with growing up,
Speaker 2: trying to find my identity as a male.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so moving a round comes with that. It's only
Speaker 1: inherent complications that not being able to form friendship and relationships,
Speaker 1: and that your submission that you did to the Parliamentary Inquiry,
Speaker 1: as I said at the start, it was very powerful.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to read a couple of things out
Speaker 1: from there because I just think that and then I'll
Speaker 1: get you to talk about it. And I'm looking at
Speaker 1: my notes here and I said that I'm reading through
Speaker 1: this it just made me sad, disappointed, and even angry.
Speaker 1: So cool from the submission that you've made to Parliament.
Speaker 1: I was only twelve when I was arrested for the
Speaker 1: first time for minor property damage. By then, I'd already
Speaker 1: been failed by schools, child services, police and adults. I
Speaker 1: had trusted multiple opportunities to get me the help I
Speaker 1: needed had been missed. I remember when I first arrested,
Speaker 1: I was living in a tin shed in a backyard
Speaker 1: with a pile of blankets for a bed. Police knew
Speaker 1: I was being abused, but they still returned me to
Speaker 1: the dangerous home after they arrested me. That's heavy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's interesting for me when I hear that.
Speaker 2: It kind of doesn't seem like anything to me. And
Speaker 2: then I have to try and think about what that
Speaker 2: sounds like for other people, you know. And I think
Speaker 2: about my friends who have got young kids that are
Speaker 2: the same age now, you know, and I look at them,
Speaker 2: and that's when it really hits me, when I say
Speaker 2: another twelve year old and I go, fuck, They're like,
Speaker 2: they're just a little kid, yeah, you know. And yeah,
Speaker 2: like for me, the reason I was in that shed
Speaker 2: was because it was unsafe in the house, you know,
Speaker 2: So that was actually that was a place of refuge
Speaker 2: for me to go to. Yeah, I just I felt
Speaker 2: very unwelcome in the home. So for me, that was
Speaker 2: a place of refuge.
Speaker 1: The tin shed with a pile of blankets for a bed.
Speaker 1: What concerns me is that the police knew I was
Speaker 1: being abused, but they still return me to a dangerous
Speaker 1: home after they arrested me. Not blaming individuals, I'm talking
Speaker 1: the system here. It is a failing, isn't it. Like
Speaker 1: I look at it and think, Okay, why have we
Speaker 1: got this so wrong?
Speaker 2: And you know what, sometimes when I when I used
Speaker 2: to think about it, I thought, O, well, maybe this
Speaker 2: is because that was back then. Things are different now,
Speaker 2: and I think, oh, well, that only happened because it
Speaker 2: was you know, different years ago, a different time, and
Speaker 2: then now working in the industry and working in and
Speaker 2: realizing it's not it hasn't changed, you know. And even
Speaker 2: though that people know that things should be done better
Speaker 2: and that children should be cared for, the same thing
Speaker 2: is still happening. You know. We're still locking up hundreds
Speaker 2: of kids and putting them in prison, and we're not
Speaker 2: caring for the children that actually need to be cared for.
Speaker 2: And like I said, we're punishing them. And for me
Speaker 2: that in the way the police took me back to
Speaker 2: that environment, that was punishment, you know, because I was
Speaker 2: told you're a bad person, you're doing something wrong, and
Speaker 2: you need to change your behavior.
Speaker 1: And it's almost a cry for help, and it would
Speaker 1: be so confusing, And that's what makes me sad, thinking
Speaker 1: of what's the mind of a twelve year old and
Speaker 1: when the narrative is let's crack down on crime and
Speaker 1: all that, what, Yeah, what hope has a child got
Speaker 1: growing up in an environment like that with no role
Speaker 1: models being abused. And I can imagine that the type
Speaker 1: of people that your mum would have been attracting coming in.
Speaker 1: And it's just I saw that in policing. I saw
Speaker 1: the horrible results in homicide that the new man coming
Speaker 1: into coming into the environment, It's true, just has a
Speaker 1: dislike for the kids. For the kids. It's almost like
Speaker 1: that animalistic animal kingdom like lions killing off the coves
Speaker 1: of the other lines.
Speaker 2: That's true because no man wants to support another man's child,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And they're seen as a threat,
Speaker 2: and that's that's kind of biological.
Speaker 1: Well not not good men or not the proper proper men.
Speaker 1: I read out, read out another another quote again because
Speaker 1: it's so powerful. Six months later, I was found by
Speaker 1: police living on the streets, forced to starve to escape
Speaker 1: from further abuse at home, but no support was provided
Speaker 1: to me. There was no curiosity from police about why
Speaker 1: such a young child would choose the street save a shelter,
Speaker 1: no questions about what was going on for me, and
Speaker 1: that no attempt to make sure I had food in
Speaker 1: the safe place to sleep. Police for return me to
Speaker 1: an environment they knew was dangerous I was immediately violently assaulted.
Speaker 2: It was repetitive and it happened. I could barely live
Speaker 2: in cant how many times, you know. I remember another
Speaker 2: time being taken home by the police and being punched
Speaker 2: in the face in front.
Speaker 1: Of the police, in front of the police, you know, And.
Speaker 2: That was acceptable because I was, like I said, I
Speaker 2: was a bad person, and I think that, you know.
Speaker 2: And I as an adult, I don't hate police, and
Speaker 2: as in my twenties, I never had that kind of
Speaker 2: hatred towards police. As a kid, I definitely did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and it was what I was taught,
Speaker 1: was the environment.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I was taught to do that. But I understand
Speaker 2: that when you're interacting with people, even if they are children,
Speaker 2: and that person swears at you and tells you to
Speaker 2: fuck off and cause your names, and you just see
Speaker 2: them and you see their behaviors, it's understandable at face
Speaker 2: value to not like that person, yeah, because you go,
Speaker 2: this seems like a bad person. But I think it
Speaker 2: does take effort for curiosity to go why is this
Speaker 2: person doing what they're doing? And I don't know if
Speaker 2: that's something that is taught in policing or not, well,
Speaker 2: but it needs to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've made me reflect, and I think there's times
Speaker 1: when early in the police and where I would have
Speaker 1: taken kids home and I can hear the parents yelling
Speaker 1: at the kid or whatever, but there was a judgment call.
Speaker 1: I hope to think that, Okay, well this is normal discipline.
Speaker 1: But yeah, the curiosity will why is he running away
Speaker 1: the whole time? And we talk about child's sexual abuse
Speaker 1: and you're not saying that, but I look back and
Speaker 1: think of all these troubled kids and wonder what you've
Speaker 1: been inside. You've been in prison, and you see how
Speaker 1: many people are in there, men and women, because of
Speaker 1: something that's happened to them in the past. But yeah,
Speaker 1: the role of policing protect or prosecute twelve year old kid,
Speaker 1: It's true, it's a hard thin.
Speaker 2: And that was something I don't know if you wanted
Speaker 2: to touch on it, but that second time when they
Speaker 2: took me back, I'd literally just been sexually assaulted, you know, right,
Speaker 2: So I'd gone back out onto the streets and because
Speaker 2: I thought that was safer than being at home, and
Speaker 2: I was trying to escape what was going on at home,
Speaker 2: and I'd been missing for months and the police had
Speaker 2: been looking for me for some time, and no one
Speaker 2: knew where I was, and yeah, I ended up at
Speaker 2: a refuge, like a children's refuge. Yeah, and some young
Speaker 2: boys took me out to the park and me drunk
Speaker 2: and one of them sexually abused me, right, and then
Speaker 2: going back to the refuge. A couple of days later,
Speaker 2: the people at the refuge found out that police were
Speaker 2: looking for me, yeah, and basically said to me, like,
Speaker 2: you know, you need to go back home. Will you
Speaker 2: go back home and meet that age saying I'm not
Speaker 2: going to go back home. But I told them I'd
Speaker 2: go back home, and they gave me a bus fare
Speaker 2: and said, okay, make your way back home, and how
Speaker 2: are we I was twelve twelve, Yeah, and so I
Speaker 2: just ran again basically, And then it was probably about
Speaker 2: a month after that police found me. And again there
Speaker 2: was like if ever, there was a time where there
Speaker 2: should have been some you know, curiosity into what's going
Speaker 2: on and what's happened to this kid? Like after being
Speaker 2: missing for months and I didn't see a doctor, I
Speaker 2: didn't see a psych no one.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you that. I was just thinking,
Speaker 1: how would police steal with that okay, we've called the
Speaker 1: run away kid. And it was always about okay from
Speaker 1: a policing point of view, And it doesn't sound good
Speaker 1: when I say it, from a policing point of view.
Speaker 1: How can we take our responsibility away from this week
Speaker 1: and we put the kid that not to be further harmed,
Speaker 1: put the kids safe. But I can't recall in all
Speaker 1: my time in policing someone saying, hey, we need a
Speaker 1: psychologist to sit down and have a chat with this child.
Speaker 1: I'd like to think we've got a little bit wiser now,
Speaker 1: but I see how it just catches up a couple
Speaker 1: of things that I pick up on that your father's
Speaker 1: lawyer advise you not to seek bail when you're in
Speaker 1: detention at one stage because it was safe for being
Speaker 1: on the streets. What was that about?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well again, so you know this was after this
Speaker 2: is a bit later on in life now, about fifteen sixteen,
Speaker 2: and I was homeless again. And yeah, at that point,
Speaker 2: I was literally starving. And I'm not even joking, like
Speaker 2: I'm not exaggerating. You know, I was living in a
Speaker 2: squat with a bunch of other guys and we had
Speaker 2: we had zero money, you know, and we were. It
Speaker 2: was like a really intense and desperate, desperate sort of
Speaker 2: situation that we're living in, you know. And I'm also
Speaker 2: really really angry, you know, and we all felt like
Speaker 2: the system had failed us, and you know, we thought
Speaker 2: that it was everyone else's fault. And yeah, and so
Speaker 2: you know, we'd done some breaking enters to steal food,
Speaker 2: and then we did a robbery, you know, myself and
Speaker 2: about four other guys did a robbery. And yeah, it
Speaker 2: was a horrible, horrible situation, a horrible thing to do situation.
Speaker 1: The Sultan rob someone on the street.
Speaker 2: There was a store, yeah, and you know, we went
Speaker 2: in in the morning, a newsagent, you know, and yeah,
Speaker 2: I'll tell the story. It's really it's definitely not something
Speaker 2: I'm proud of at all, you know. But we walked
Speaker 2: in and I punched him, thinking I was going to
Speaker 2: knock him out and then we're just going to take
Speaker 2: the money and cigarettes and whatever else was there. And yeah,
Speaker 2: but he didn't get knocked out straight away, you know.
Speaker 2: And then one of the other fellows, fellows I was
Speaker 2: we just really gave it to him and we robbed
Speaker 2: a place and then we left and it wasn't long
Speaker 2: after that we were arrested, and I think it was
Speaker 2: pretty obvious that maybe we'd had something to do with it,
Speaker 2: because we've been causing so much trouble in that neighborhood
Speaker 2: for some time, you know. And yeah, so we were arrested,
Speaker 2: and that's when I went into juvenile the first time,
Speaker 2: you know. And that's when my dad's lawyer. I'd reached
Speaker 2: out to my dad. I really wasn't in contact with
Speaker 2: him very much, but I knew he had a lawyer,
Speaker 2: and you know.
Speaker 1: So I reached out.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, Yeah, he's probably maybe twenty years or yeah,
Speaker 2: robbery and fraud and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: So I reached out to him, and he just said, look,
Speaker 2: you're better off staying in there because you've gotten able
Speaker 2: to live, you know, so it's better just to stay
Speaker 2: where you are, you know. And I can kind of
Speaker 2: see where he was coming from, yeah, because look at
Speaker 2: where I was. I had no food, I had nothing.
Speaker 1: Tell us about to give us sense because most people
Speaker 1: we hear of kids living on the street and all that,
Speaker 1: but tell us about your experience, like, Okay, you've got
Speaker 1: nowhere to go, you're twelve thurther and fourth and that
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, the world's a scary place. And when
Speaker 1: the sun goes down and everyone's gone to their home,
Speaker 1: talk us through your thinking and the life of a
Speaker 1: kid on the street.
Speaker 2: I'll say the first. The first thing, and this is
Speaker 2: like something that pervades every moment of every day, is
Speaker 2: the loneliness. You know, like you're very very lonely because
Speaker 2: you know that something that is needed is missing. You know,
Speaker 2: you don't have the care and the love that you're
Speaker 2: meant to have, so you feel very alone. Besides, you know,
Speaker 2: besides like what's going on an emotional level, you're looking
Speaker 2: to do anything you can do to take that feeling away,
Speaker 2: which generally is drugs and alcohol. When it comes to
Speaker 2: what you do at nighttime, you're looking for somewhere wane
Speaker 2: to sleep, you know, and somewhere safe to sleep. And
Speaker 2: generally you find other kids to hang out with, you know,
Speaker 2: not adults because they're more dangerous, you know, So you
Speaker 2: find other kids to hang out with.
Speaker 1: And just on that, you know, the adults are dangerous
Speaker 1: because they'll take advantage of you.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, they might. They could do anything to you,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: So and where do you find these kids around? Like
Speaker 1: I know, you will. The homeless kids always seem to
Speaker 1: gravitate and how what's your How do you find them each?
Speaker 2: I'm guessing it's like just networking. You know, you see
Speaker 2: other kids and you recognize each other. Yeah, you know
Speaker 2: as being homeless, and someone will kind of take you
Speaker 2: under their wing, you know, when a new kid comes
Speaker 2: under the street, other kids will kind of take them
Speaker 2: under their wing and come and say live with us,
Speaker 2: and they teach you how to survive. And you know,
Speaker 2: for me at twelve, that was learning things like sleeping
Speaker 2: under trees at night because it was warmer, you know,
Speaker 2: or sleeping underneath cars to keep the like the rain
Speaker 2: or the cold off. And these are things that a
Speaker 2: normal kid that has a home doesn't know to do.
Speaker 1: So And I would imagine Woongonge camera during the winter.
Speaker 2: This is camera. It was freezing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was cold. Yeah, so you could seriously die
Speaker 1: out it was freezing there. So how many how many
Speaker 1: people did you hang around with?
Speaker 2: Used to? There will be points would be nearly as yep. Yeah,
Speaker 2: look between a dozen, and you'd usually kind of pair up,
Speaker 2: you know, you'd find a mate or something and that'd
Speaker 2: be yeah, your buddy that you'd kind of rely on
Speaker 2: and you'd actually you'd really rely on each other.
Speaker 1: Did you have to like break in the houses or
Speaker 1: factories or shops to find the place to sleep? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would be absolutely attractive option.
Speaker 2: And it was hard in the city because there's less
Speaker 2: of that kind of to get in take. Yeah. Sometimes,
Speaker 2: like one of the older kids would go and try
Speaker 2: and rent a property, which we knew we wouldn't, no
Speaker 2: one would rent to them. But then we'd leave windows
Speaker 2: open and then and then go at night and break
Speaker 2: in and sleep and then try and get out before
Speaker 2: anyone came back in the morning. That was probably that
Speaker 2: was probably the nicest place to sleep. Yeah, if we
Speaker 2: could ever do that. Otherwise it was just stairwells and
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Yeah, car park stairwells. People.
Speaker 1: Would you'd start to see a group like that, And
Speaker 1: did you have anyone other than the police pay attention
Speaker 1: to you from a way of helping helping you guys?
Speaker 2: And that's that's the most bizarre thing when I look back.
Speaker 2: You know, we would spend so much time at youth
Speaker 2: centers in the daytime, you know, because they were like
Speaker 2: a place to hang out and it was accepting of
Speaker 2: us in the daytime, but not once did anyone reach
Speaker 2: out to me and say, like, have you got someone
Speaker 2: to live tonight? Yeah? You know, it was like it
Speaker 2: was like at five o'clock the doors shut and their
Speaker 2: job was over.
Speaker 1: And you were carrying your worldly possessions in a bag
Speaker 1: and no source of income.
Speaker 2: None, Yeah, other than shoplifting and selling what it ma shoplift.
Speaker 1: So the life you're painting isn't isn't very attractive. But
Speaker 1: you're saying that was a better option than them being
Speaker 1: at home.
Speaker 2: It was, Yeah, And that's the I guess that's the
Speaker 2: most tragic thing, isn't it. That's that was a better option,
Speaker 2: and it actually was. I mean, the the sexual assault
Speaker 2: definitely made it not a better option, you know.
Speaker 1: But sexual assault stem from you've been in a use refuge.
Speaker 1: But because I was homeless, right, and then there was
Speaker 1: someone there to look after that sexually.
Speaker 2: One of the other kids, other kids, Yeah, one of
Speaker 2: the other older older boys there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I suppose they're probably acting out because to them as well, they've.
Speaker 2: Learned exactly and not really messed with me.
Speaker 1: Any of the people that you were associated back then
Speaker 1: didn't make it through.
Speaker 2: Or absolutely example, that was so that was so common
Speaker 2: to even as a young teenager, and to know that
Speaker 2: people were going to be dying, that was like really common,
Speaker 2: and it was it was expected that you ago in
Speaker 2: a year's time that person might not be alive. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I remember one really sad. One was a there was
Speaker 2: a young boy Downiable and Gone who there was a
Speaker 2: big thing Downable and Gone at the time where it
Speaker 2: was one of the ex mayors down there, Frank r.
Speaker 2: He'd been involved in child sex trafficking and.
Speaker 1: I remember when he was murdered.
Speaker 2: That's right. So I knew those boys who did that, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I knew one of them from that time when I
Speaker 2: was on the street, you know. And yeah, so the
Speaker 2: one of one of the boys that he'd done that too,
Speaker 2: killed himself, you know, and hung himself under a bridge,
Speaker 2: you know. So it was, yeah, you just knew that
Speaker 2: kids some kitchens couldn't take it. It was just too
Speaker 2: much for some people, and that that's.
Speaker 1: Not the toot of the thing. You should, yeah feel
Speaker 1: that this party at that time. And then you've got
Speaker 1: someone like the Frank r. Kels, supposedly a person in
Speaker 1: the position of power.
Speaker 2: So much power.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well he met the grousome day.
Speaker 2: He sure did. And the sad thing is those boys
Speaker 2: that did it still went to jail, and you know,
Speaker 2: ultimately they're the ones who still suffered, which is really
Speaker 2: really sad.
Speaker 1: Did any of the kids progress through it and then
Speaker 1: come back and say, hey, there's another way? Did Like
Speaker 1: I'm I'm trying to clutch on hope, but did you
Speaker 1: get any role models? That's sort of not.
Speaker 2: Back then it was too you know, I continue moving
Speaker 2: around a lot, and I've lost contact with most people.
Speaker 2: I think back to those kids sometimes, you know, and
Speaker 2: wonder how they went, and I really hope they did,
Speaker 2: know how I feel like a little family, you know.
Speaker 1: How looking back at those times, what are the things
Speaker 1: that could have put the circuit breaker in the direction
Speaker 1: your your life was heading him? What do you think
Speaker 1: that made a difference?
Speaker 2: For sure? So and I guess this is like the
Speaker 2: things I'm about to say now, is the same for
Speaker 2: the other kids currently that are going through the same thing,
Speaker 2: you know, And it's like wrap around community services, you know,
Speaker 2: to firstly to provide accommodation if they need accommodation, if
Speaker 2: it's kids that are homeless, if it's kids that have
Speaker 2: just left home and finding out what's going on at home.
Speaker 2: Is it a problem where the parents are the problem
Speaker 2: or is it something else? And if it's something else,
Speaker 2: can we get them back home. It's like, yeah, supporting
Speaker 2: them if they've got mental health stuff going on, because
Speaker 2: a lot of their kids running away have got mental
Speaker 2: health or maybe they're realizing that they're queer and their
Speaker 2: parents aren't accepting. And that's a lot of homeless kids
Speaker 2: like that, you know, because their parents aren't accepting of that,
Speaker 2: and they're either their parents kick them out, they're running away.
Speaker 2: They're actually kicked.
Speaker 1: Out, well, the parents are loathing, shame on them and exactly.
Speaker 2: So if that's the case, it's getting them into services
Speaker 2: that understand that and can support them like that, and
Speaker 2: it's not criminalizing them and saying that we need to
Speaker 2: care for them and not criminalize them.
Speaker 1: What about you charged by police. We've sort of had
Speaker 1: a look at how the police handle it. But then
Speaker 1: it goes to court. There's another opportunity for the system
Speaker 1: to really go hold what's going on here. In fact
Speaker 1: that it's probably set up better than the police. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: do you find anyone when you kept appearing before the court,
Speaker 1: did anyone I.
Speaker 2: Had a juvenile justice officer who was actually really good.
Speaker 2: And when I say he was good, I felt like
Speaker 2: he genuinely cared, which was something that no one else did,
Speaker 2: and that meant a lot to me. You know. That's
Speaker 2: something that really meant a lot, and it's something I
Speaker 2: carried with me for a long time, is something that
Speaker 2: really had helped. But that care could only go so far,
Speaker 2: you know, And it's not like I could move in
Speaker 2: with him, you know what I mean. So I still
Speaker 2: needed somewhere to live, and I was going to crisis refugees.
Speaker 2: That's where I've been bailed, to crisis refuges. But for me,
Speaker 2: my experience in that, in the refuge I went to
Speaker 2: at that time, it was really like it was like
Speaker 2: tree arch, Yeah, you know, it was like we'll just
Speaker 2: try and manage things, but not actually heal anything.
Speaker 1: And that's that's interesting. So there's an attempt but from
Speaker 1: a person that's been through that didn't think a del
Speaker 1: wasn't enough.
Speaker 2: It wasn't enough and for me personally, which and this
Speaker 2: isn't the case for all people going into this kind
Speaker 2: of situation, but it's definitely something to be mindful of.
Speaker 2: It's the it's who are you employing to look after
Speaker 2: these kids? Because for me, that wasn't another time where
Speaker 2: I was abused again, So.
Speaker 1: Talk us through that what happened there?
Speaker 2: So, so, yeah, I was living in this crisis refuge
Speaker 2: and there was counseling made available to all the kids there,
Speaker 2: which on the face of it seems like a really
Speaker 2: good thing, and in the right circumstances could have been
Speaker 2: a good thing. But for me, this counselor basically groomed
Speaker 2: me from from the start, you know. And I'd opened
Speaker 2: up to him about the assault that had happened with me,
Speaker 2: you know, and that and he was actually the first
Speaker 2: person I told about it, and I opened up to
Speaker 2: him and let him know that, like I was questioning
Speaker 2: my sexuality and stuff. So I really opened up to
Speaker 2: this guy, you know, And yeah, and he just really
Speaker 2: took advantage of that, and and that led to, yeah,
Speaker 2: to more abuse.
Speaker 1: That's because if you're that way inclined as a predator
Speaker 1: to abuse abuse kids, it's just the perfect environment. Wasn't
Speaker 1: vulnerable vulnerable exactly? Kids teenagers coming into an environment environment
Speaker 1: like that? What did that do for your trust of
Speaker 1: the system?
Speaker 2: And that Yeah, that that caused so many issues for
Speaker 2: me growing up, you know, and that really really stuck
Speaker 2: with me. Firstly, it meant that I was acting out,
Speaker 2: you know, and some my behavior had gone from bad
Speaker 2: to worse becoming violent. Yeah, you know, I was already
Speaker 2: a I was already had a very short temper and
Speaker 2: prone to violence, but now it was just gone to
Speaker 2: another level where anything anyone would do or say, I
Speaker 2: would just react, you know, and and you know, breaking
Speaker 2: windows around the refuge and breaking things and screaming at
Speaker 2: people and threatening people and obviously they're not going to
Speaker 2: accept that kind of behavior and basically just exited me immediately.
Speaker 1: Then you're back out.
Speaker 2: So I was back homeless again and breaking bail and
Speaker 2: you know so, and I suppose the stuff at the
Speaker 2: time weren't to understand what was going on with me.
Speaker 2: They just seeing my behaviors.
Speaker 1: At that point in time with all the damage. And
Speaker 1: I say, it's damage that's been done to you at
Speaker 1: that point in time, because we've still got you in
Speaker 1: that fifteen sixteen age. Is there any way or anything
Speaker 1: that you think could have stepped into Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: so steer you around. What would you propose because I
Speaker 1: bring it back to what we started about let's get
Speaker 1: tough on crime, and we could look at you and
Speaker 1: look at your history and put him in jail. You
Speaker 1: have had your chances, but you're inside.
Speaker 2: I can see that because I was a threat to
Speaker 2: the people around me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is that is a public sentiment, and
Speaker 1: we touched on it earlier. They're scared, they're worried about
Speaker 1: about about crime. So you can understand where they're coming from.
Speaker 1: But let's just take a step back and look at
Speaker 1: it from a different, different way. What could have been
Speaker 1: done for you at that stage It may have made
Speaker 1: a difference.
Speaker 2: And I think before I say what I think could
Speaker 2: be done, I think when you see a young person
Speaker 2: whose behavior is so bad and they are acting up
Speaker 2: so much, and the ones that we're saying, like, this
Speaker 2: kid is so bad, we're going to put them in jail.
Speaker 2: This is about two hundred, bit over two hundred kids
Speaker 2: in jail currently.
Speaker 1: In South jail, in prison, children's prison, children's prison.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so there's about two hundred and forty or
Speaker 2: something like that kids in New South Wales prison. Those
Speaker 2: are the kids that if it gets to that point,
Speaker 2: they're the ones that we say, Okay, what do we
Speaker 2: what something's gone wrong here? Yeah? I mean this is
Speaker 2: not this is not normal for it to progress this far. Yep.
Speaker 2: So they're the ones where we go, Okay, these are
Speaker 2: the ones that really need care, and I think the
Speaker 2: only way to turn a child like that around. And
Speaker 2: they are children. Remember, like we're talking about children.
Speaker 1: We forget that, Yeah, the children, right when you when
Speaker 1: you look back at Yeah, I look back at my
Speaker 1: life and think I thought I knew what the world
Speaker 1: was at the sixteen. I knew jack shit. Even when
Speaker 1: you're early twenties, you still don't know what last life's about.
Speaker 1: So yeah, we'll hold on to that thought that we're
Speaker 1: talking children. Okay, So it's a child that has gone
Speaker 1: off off the rails for a whole range of reasons.
Speaker 1: And you've given, by way of an example, why you
Speaker 1: went off, which to me seems perfectly normal. If I
Speaker 1: went through what you went through, it I be doing
Speaker 1: what you were doing.
Speaker 2: I would imagine There's two things will happen. You'll you'll
Speaker 2: really push back like I yet, or you'll kill yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd just be completely broken, that's yeah. So okay,
Speaker 1: So getting back to what we could do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that's a perfect example of we
Speaker 2: need to care for that kid, that child, Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: and there's already some services operating in I know, there's
Speaker 2: one in red Phone called weave Think just got some
Speaker 2: really good statistics and results and reducing reciptism of young
Speaker 2: people down to like really really like single digits compared
Speaker 2: to like above fifty percent recipitism. And there's we need
Speaker 2: services that are culturally appropriate. A lot of these kids
Speaker 2: that are going into indigenous kids, so it needs to
Speaker 2: be culturally appropriate, and it needs to be genuine care.
Speaker 2: And like when I said, when I look at that
Speaker 2: juvenile justice officer, I had, he genuinely cared and that
Speaker 2: made a difference. So we need genuine care and the
Speaker 2: support needs to match what that child needs. So that's
Speaker 2: it is psychological. A big part of it is therapy
Speaker 2: if that's what they need, and it's connecting them to
Speaker 2: community in a healthy way, giving them role models, you know,
Speaker 2: other people that have made it out, you know, and
Speaker 2: modeling good behavior. It's you know, showing them that there's
Speaker 2: another possibility and that there's another future if they are
Speaker 2: able to to put one foot in front of the other,
Speaker 2: getting back to school, you know, and maybe they need
Speaker 2: a tutor, but it's a lot. They need a lot
Speaker 2: of care. But it's cheaper than sending them to.
Speaker 1: Prison fiscally, like if we just sold it on the
Speaker 1: financially viable, a lot cheaper. I see the work that
Speaker 1: Shane Phillips does. We've Tribal Warrior and clean Slate without prejudice,
Speaker 1: and like they've been doing that for a long time
Speaker 1: and it's been working and changing lives.
Speaker 2: But another one, healing the Warrior.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's doing that stuff, all those ones that are
Speaker 1: doing it, and I know they run on the smell
Speaker 1: of an oily rag half half the time. So when
Speaker 1: we talk about money and we need we need Vince
Speaker 1: here or Claude because they've got all the fact they've
Speaker 1: got all stats and figures, will dial back to them.
Speaker 1: But I think I've heard the figure of something like
Speaker 1: two hundred thousand dollars a year to keep a child
Speaker 1: in custody.
Speaker 2: I think it's more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, okay, I'm high because I think it's yeah,
Speaker 1: because I was surprised how it was a lot higher
Speaker 1: than keeping an adult in custody for twelve months. So okay,
Speaker 1: let's throw in two hundred and fifty thousand for each
Speaker 1: child in custody. Oil Lot could be provided with money
Speaker 1: instead of having one child in custody, and then the
Speaker 1: chances of being in a juvenile detention center, the likelihood
Speaker 1: of them going into adult prison.
Speaker 2: It's very very likely. I can't remember the stats off
Speaker 2: the top of my head, but it's more than fifty percent.
Speaker 2: I think its about eighty percent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's up that high.
Speaker 2: So I just won't mention one thing too, just in
Speaker 2: case people don't realize that the age of criminal responsibility
Speaker 2: in New South Wales currently is ten years old. Yes, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: ten years old. What ten year old knows the difference
Speaker 2: between right and wrong to start with? And if they've
Speaker 2: got all this stuff going on at home and they've
Speaker 2: got all these the other issues going on, how can
Speaker 2: they make sound decisions and then be responsible for their behavior?
Speaker 1: And you hear campaigning and I think it's Coensland more
Speaker 1: so than New South Wales, but talking about lowering the
Speaker 1: age of criminal cropability. I'm not sure for ten. So
Speaker 1: you can't be charged under ten, but you can be
Speaker 1: charged over ten if you're over ten years at age.
Speaker 1: If you knew what you did was wrong. So I
Speaker 1: think that goes up to up to fourteen. But you've
Speaker 1: changed my thinking in that protection or prosecution and just
Speaker 1: that one sort of sentence makes a big difference, doesn't
Speaker 1: It does because we and I'm looking from the you know,
Speaker 1: I've still got the gene running running through me. Okay,
Speaker 1: if they've done the crime, we're going to lock them up,
Speaker 1: put them before the courts, and then move on to
Speaker 1: the next one.
Speaker 2: Because it's a system we trust, and we put trust
Speaker 2: in that system to do the right thing to keep
Speaker 2: us safe. You know, it has that idea that when
Speaker 2: people are dangerous, we want them out of the community.
Speaker 1: And like the crime that you said that you're embarrassed by,
Speaker 1: Like a crime like that happened now, that would be
Speaker 1: on the front page of the paper, and it would
Speaker 1: probably be video images of four of you storming into
Speaker 1: a newsagent with a balola bala clav is on and
Speaker 1: assaulting the shop owner. Leads story. But when you did it,
Speaker 1: it would have I don't think it would Yeah, it
Speaker 1: would have just got to mention, Okay, So we're saying
Speaker 1: there should be a better way. I look at I
Speaker 1: see these, you know, and people say, why are you
Speaker 1: rewarding people for being bad, you know, where you see
Speaker 1: kids being taken out to the bush to camp and
Speaker 1: learn respect with good people. I see benefits in that
Speaker 1: type of thing. I don't if a kid that's a
Speaker 1: troubled kid, and if we start looking at not a
Speaker 1: bad kid, the troubled troubled kid, we're putting effort into
Speaker 1: steering them in the right direction. It has to be beneficial.
Speaker 2: I agreed. And when they say like rewarding bad behavior,
Speaker 2: I don't think there's any kid that is going to
Speaker 2: like do some kind of crime then get taken on
Speaker 2: a camp and then put two and two together and go,
Speaker 2: I was rewarded for that. They're separate things, you know, and.
Speaker 1: That's true, you're not smoking.
Speaker 2: They're going to look at it as a separate thing,
Speaker 2: and they're going to they're just going to take it
Speaker 2: for what it is. And I was thinking about this
Speaker 2: before coming in and because a lot of people might
Speaker 2: think this is like a right left kind of thing,
Speaker 2: you know, when it comes.
Speaker 1: To crackdown all the yeah, and.
Speaker 2: I actually don't think it's a right left thing. I
Speaker 2: try and be a bit I do try and understand
Speaker 2: what's happening on both sides of these kind of arguments
Speaker 2: and try not to argue about it. And for me,
Speaker 2: I think that even if you don't care about young people,
Speaker 2: or you don't care about disadvantage people and you're just
Speaker 2: really couldn't give a shit. Even if you're like that,
Speaker 2: it's still not going to help your community to put
Speaker 2: young people in prison or even adults in prison the
Speaker 2: way we're doing it now, because the receivitism rates like
Speaker 2: the rates of people coming out and going back in,
Speaker 2: like fifty percent of people that go to prison go
Speaker 2: back if once they're released, they go back in within
Speaker 2: twelve months. If they're going back in, that means they're
Speaker 2: committing another crime. So we're trying to we had that
Speaker 2: same police out of police your way out of crime
Speaker 2: or punish your way out of crime. It just does not.
Speaker 1: Well, you can't, I agree, And I say that there's
Speaker 1: spending most of my career in the police. You can't
Speaker 1: arrest your way out.
Speaker 2: Of there, and it's so expensive. And I'm not saying stop
Speaker 2: or prison like, I don't believe that. I just think
Speaker 2: that when people are there, it's an opportunity, even as adults,
Speaker 2: to turn their life around. Give people a chance to
Speaker 2: get educated while they're there. Give them a chance so
Speaker 2: when they come out they've got the resources and the
Speaker 2: skills not to go back, because currently they come out
Speaker 2: and most like half a release of homelessness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes a lot of It makes a lot
Speaker 1: of sense. And when we're talking kids, if they haven't
Speaker 1: got the protection that we think all kids, all kids deserve,
Speaker 1: that's where society has got to step up. Now. People
Speaker 1: could be listening to this conversation you and I talk
Speaker 1: and what are these fun it's on about, like someone
Speaker 1: will be saying, you've got to crack down. If they
Speaker 1: do the crime, punish them. Okay, it's not about getting
Speaker 1: tough on crime, it's getting smart on Crime's I'd love
Speaker 1: to say it was my thoughts, but it didn't. It
Speaker 1: came from Ken Marslow, whose son was murdered in a robbery.
Speaker 1: He formed enough is enough. Ken's sadly passed away, but
Speaker 1: I would often have these discussions with him because when
Speaker 1: his son was murdered, he was the one marching on
Speaker 1: Parliament demanding for mandatory sentencing, and this should happen, that
Speaker 1: should happen. How that evolved over a twenty year period
Speaker 1: can start to realize, well, hold it, that's the anger
Speaker 1: is destroying me, it's not making it making a difference.
Speaker 1: And if we try to prevent crime, that's getting smarter
Speaker 1: on crime, not getting tougher on crime. And if you
Speaker 1: get smarter on crime, there's less victims. People that are
Speaker 1: going to jump on us for saying we're trying to
Speaker 1: get too soft, we're trying to reduce victims.
Speaker 2: And that's exactly the point I'm making it, And I'm
Speaker 2: glad the way you said that, Yeah, it reiterates that
Speaker 2: because that's the whole point we're trying to Even if
Speaker 2: you don't care about the people doing it, we want
Speaker 2: to say for community everyone.
Speaker 1: That's the thing. And one thing I know, if you
Speaker 1: escalate it, like as a kid that you're going through
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, what could have changed you, steering
Speaker 1: you in a better way. But imagine if we came
Speaker 1: down on you even harder, how I view reacted.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, And I look back and think, Fortunately
Speaker 2: for me, I didn't go to adult prison until I
Speaker 2: was a lot older, Yeah, you know, and I sort
Speaker 2: of evaded police for a long time. And I think
Speaker 2: back to the way I was in my younger years
Speaker 2: and how how angry I was, and how you know,
Speaker 2: willing I was to fight at the top of a hat.
Speaker 2: If I'd gone to prison at that age, I can't
Speaker 2: of imagine what could have happened. Well I would have.
Speaker 2: I would have been a much more dangerous person than
Speaker 2: I ended up being, definitely.
Speaker 1: Full of anger and rage and violence. Just explained it
Speaker 1: absolutely unfortunately that that's an environment, that prison, prison, because.
Speaker 2: It's a scary, traumatic, create horrible place to be.
Speaker 1: We always, well, we we talk a lot about men
Speaker 1: and young young men. What about the women in the situation?
Speaker 1: Did you see homeless homeless young girls? Are they going
Speaker 1: through the same thing?
Speaker 2: And that's like when I was thinking back to the
Speaker 2: kids that I was living with at that time, and
Speaker 2: some of the ones I do wonder about with the girls,
Speaker 2: you know, and yeah, girls in that environment are even
Speaker 2: more more, way more vulnerable, you know, like vulnerable to
Speaker 2: sex trafficking, vulnerable to yeah, just guys taking advantage of them.
Speaker 2: A lot of them en up in prostitution. You know,
Speaker 2: even me as a young guy, as a young guy
Speaker 2: at that age, you know, it was like there was
Speaker 2: a lot of the boys I knew working on the
Speaker 2: wall and the cross, and that was an option that
Speaker 2: was put to me. It's like, you know, do you
Speaker 2: want to come and work? I chose drug dealing instead, right,
Speaker 2: And it was kind of the thing because I'd heard
Speaker 2: mom make that same choice, you know, so as a
Speaker 2: young person, that was did she want to go into
Speaker 2: sex work? And she chose drug dealing and I made
Speaker 2: the same choice. But it could have just gone the
Speaker 2: other way.
Speaker 1: What what what hope have you got? Like really where
Speaker 1: you're saying that, well, one lesson I learnt from mum
Speaker 1: instead of going in the prostitution, drug dealing is the
Speaker 1: more vital. And when I want people to check themselves
Speaker 1: and think, what did your parents teach? And that's the
Speaker 1: environment that you grew up in.
Speaker 2: And that was her trying to protect me in the
Speaker 2: world that she knew I was going into.
Speaker 1: You know, did you think that you had a future
Speaker 1: at all? Like you've said, your friends were dying and
Speaker 1: killing themselves.
Speaker 2: And you know, I was. I was suicidal for a
Speaker 2: long long time. You know, the thoughts of suicide were
Speaker 2: daily for most of my life, probably unil I was
Speaker 2: about thirty. Yeah, so I definitely didn't see the future
Speaker 2: and it wasn't until around thirty, where my mental health
Speaker 2: got a bit better. Yeah, that I kind of that.
Speaker 2: I could probably even say that I that I was
Speaker 2: enjoying life on some level, you know, But I did
Speaker 2: always have this idea that I was trying to get
Speaker 2: better and better myself and whatever way that looked like.
Speaker 2: And it was a very very slow, slow, slow journey. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you know, when I say better myself doesn't mean
Speaker 2: I was a good person or making good decisions. I
Speaker 2: was just trying to be a bit better than I
Speaker 2: was the day before. But I definitely made a lot
Speaker 2: of bad decisions on the way, and people around me
Speaker 2: suffered because of that, and I suffered as well.
Speaker 1: Right, Drugs and alcohol were you was that year?
Speaker 2: Not alcohol, I don't drink, yeah, but drugs. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: that was your escape absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And I spent
Speaker 2: some periods without without taking drugs, you know, Like I
Speaker 2: think the longest I went was seven years in my twenties.
Speaker 2: But yeah, for most of my life, drugs was my
Speaker 2: was my the way I escaped those feelings, especially in
Speaker 2: my young in my teens and young young twenties. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that was the only thing I knew to do to
Speaker 2: that deep loneliness away.
Speaker 1: Just winding back to the options with kids with you
Speaker 1: and I got two hundred and fifty thousand dollars to spend.
Speaker 1: There's a kid sitting at the end of the table
Speaker 1: that's thirty these life's off track. What do we do
Speaker 1: with that money to make a difference to that young
Speaker 1: young fella's life.
Speaker 2: And I think from me, you know, I'm not an
Speaker 2: expert in this, but I know that there are services
Speaker 2: that have put a lot of thought into this, and
Speaker 2: from what I've read recently, they're talking like one hundred
Speaker 2: thousand a year, not even two hundred and fifty thousand
Speaker 2: a year that they feel like they can really make
Speaker 2: a difference and an impact on that child's life and
Speaker 2: prevent them from going back into prison and give them
Speaker 2: a real shot. And like I said, a big part
Speaker 2: of that is getting them back into school, because every
Speaker 2: child should be at school.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we haven't really delved into that. I think
Speaker 1: you went to fifteen different school I did. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: haven't got much chance of education there, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: it wasn't your priority, but it wasn't How much difference
Speaker 1: can their education because it's self esteem and everything that
Speaker 1: comes in.
Speaker 2: There absolutely, And I think self esteem is a big,
Speaker 2: a big part of this the problem I guess, or
Speaker 2: what's going on with young people and the adults they become,
Speaker 2: because that lack of self esteem is such a hindrance
Speaker 2: on being able to make positive moves, you know, and
Speaker 2: when you're a person who when you look at yourself
Speaker 2: and all you see is failure, you know, and you've
Speaker 2: told you a failure, you told you're a bad person,
Speaker 2: and you don't have any any experiences of succeeding or
Speaker 2: finishing something. You know, I can't remember finishing anything until
Speaker 2: I was an adult, like a way into my adulthood.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't give you much self esteem, and you.
Speaker 2: Just think you're not capable. And I think for people
Speaker 2: who haven't had that kind of experience, they don't under
Speaker 2: stand how crippling that is. And you know, when you
Speaker 2: see young people and adults coming out of prison and
Speaker 2: people say, why don't they just get a job? Why
Speaker 2: do they keep going back? Why do they keep making
Speaker 2: the same mistakes? So much of that is self esteem
Speaker 2: and the fact that they don't have experience of doing
Speaker 2: something well and finishing something, and you know, it does
Speaker 2: it doesn't take much a few little winds can really
Speaker 2: can really turn different. You know, Really little things can
Speaker 2: make a difference. It might be completing something that takes
Speaker 2: a week to do and you can hold onto that
Speaker 2: and it can really make a difference.
Speaker 1: Look, I can achieve, I can. Yeah, And because yeah,
Speaker 1: life's hard enough even when you've got the stable family
Speaker 1: around you and what you've been through. We might take
Speaker 1: a break now and let let the listeners and viewers
Speaker 1: pond their on the life that you've led up until
Speaker 1: this point. When we get back, we'll talk about your adulthood,
Speaker 1: the journey into prison, which I don't think that will
Speaker 1: come as a surprise and just plucked that out of
Speaker 1: the air that you're going to end up in prison.
Speaker 1: But then the way that you've turned your life around,
Speaker 1: the work that discovering what was on offer with Rainbow Lodge,
Speaker 1: and so many other things to talk about.
Speaker 2: You take a break,