WEBVTT - Raised by neglect, punished by the system: Lincoln Tarrow-Lynch Pt. 1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.320 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.360 Lincoln Tarot Lynch's earliest memory was watching his dad get 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:54.200 arrested and fight with police when he was just five 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.560 years old. Police raided his home and his mum was 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:01.920 put in prison, at rested for the first time. How 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:05.240 do you think this story is going to end? Well? Today, 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.240 I sit down with the man himself and we find out. 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.800 Lincoln Taro Lynch, Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:14.440 I thank you good to be here. 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:20.680 Well there's a lot of times that you wouldn't have 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.280 been thinking that you're going to be sitting down talking 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:27.520 on true podcast. Well, I saw you talk a couple 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.319 of years ago at the I think it was the 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:35.440 end of year Rainbow Lodge event, which is attended by judges, 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.840 politicians and a whole range cross section of the people, 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:42.000 and I remember your story from there. It was very powerful. 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:47.080 So looking forward to sitting down and speaking to youth crime. 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:50.880 It seems to be on the front page of the 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.480 papers and leads stories on the news across the country, 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.880 not just here in New South Wales. And when you 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.640 get that type of narrative, there's people that push back 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.840 and we need tougher scent and seeing we need crack 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:10.359 down on youth crime. Do an adult crime, do adult time? 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.840 A lot of ways of approaching it. What's your sense 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:18.520 in terms of youth crime when you hear that, do 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:21.400 you agree with it or you think we're approaching it 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:22.160 from the wrong. 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:25.160 I would definitely disagree with it, Yeah, but I understand 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:27.960 why people would I kind of react that way and 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.960 why there is that reaction because I guess it looks 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.760 scary and when you see images in the media of 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:36.160 you know, the different crimes being committed, and a lot 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:42.000 of it's been video recorded. It's scary and people want 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.359 to feel safe. And I don't know, when you hear 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:47.320 youth crime, I remember when I was a kid, it 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.520 was always the youth you use, always being targeted as 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:53.800 the people who to be scared of. And you know, 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.560 I heard someone talk, it was actually on Vince Talk yesterday, 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.040 the stats on youth crime that they've actually gone down. 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.000 But yeah, the media would say otherwise, and politicians seemed 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:08.200 to say otherwise. So and in terms of locking them up, 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:09.080 it just doesn't work. 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:13.000 Yeah, yeah, well I know, and that's you know, we're 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:15.720 really going to dig into it with you about Yeah, 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.560 once you put someone in the system, it's very hard 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.040 for them to break out, absolutely with that, and you're 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:25.560 being there so you could attest to that. I saw 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:28.320 the submission you made to the Parliamentary inquiry that was 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:32.880 into youth justice and detention and I think it was 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:36.800 established last year, and the one thing that really resonated 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.400 with me that you said in your submission that you 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:45.400 put in was the system chose prosecution over protection, and 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.120 that really it sort of hit me in your story 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:50.560 because I've got a bit of an understanding of your story. 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:55.120 Chose prosecution over protection. Do you want to just break 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:57.840 that down where you were coming from with that, Well. 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:01.520 I guess it's in the way it's said. It's like, 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.400 you know, you find a young person and they're having 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:08.920 contact with the police because they've maybe committed a crime 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:14.640 or maybe they're doing something they shouldn't be doing, and 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:19.359 then the reaction is to maybe arrest them. Maybe whether 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:21.560 that means they go into prison or not, it's another thing. 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.800 But instead of like approaching them and saying, why is 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.360 this kid doing this? Why are they behaving the way 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:30.720 they are? Why is a ten or eleven year old 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.080 running around so angry, you know, and breaking the law 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.919 when other kids aren't doing that. And it's not because 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.480 that kid's a bad person or they're a criminal at heart. 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.720 It's because there's other things most likely going on at 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.080 home and they probably have been for a long time. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:51.880 And whether that's like stuff related to poverty, or whether 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:56.320 it's related to like addiction at home maybe or other 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.520 factors that are meaning this child doesn't have the same 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:04.760 opportunities are the children and yeah, and their behaviors that 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:05.880 are a reflection of that. 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.440 Well, I don't think children set out to be bad, 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.320 of course they're not. Inherently you don't you know, you 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:15.440 don't get it. Crawl out of the coton go, I'm 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.160 going to create in this world. You're your shaped by 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:23.520 your environment, and we all need the role models and 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:26.440 parameters to point us in the in the right direction. 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:30.840 So that's why prosecution over protection really made me think 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.960 about the way we look at things. In your situation 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:39.440 that we're going to hear about, you needed protection. Prosecution 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.320 wasn't what. You needed someone to put an arm around 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:44.680 to it and look after you and steer you in 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.839 the right direction. And you didn't didn't get that. Let's 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.080 let's talk about your childhood. Where did you go? 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:54.640 So? I grew up predominantly in Wollongong. Ye a little 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.719 bit of time in Act, but yeah, most of my 0:05:57.800 --> 0:05:59.000 young life was in. 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:05.280 Yeah, and what with family environment, siblings, parents, us through that. 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:09.599 So my dad was much older than my mom. Like 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.000 when they got together, he was in his late twenties, 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:16.479 she was seventeen. I think he'd been like, you know, 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.960 doing crime and stuff for some time. And yeah, mett 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:24.159 mum and she felt pregnant with me, And yeah, she 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.680 left him when I was pretty young, yep, and tried 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.880 to sort of do things byself. So I was mostly 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.840 raised by her. It was just Shan and I most 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.360 of the time. You know, she had boyfriends now and then, 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:40.080 but yeah, she was a single mom growing up in 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.640 the eighties when that was really frowned upon, and she 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:48.400 had no support from home either, so she did what 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:54.400 she could to survive. And sadly that for her meant 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.839 you know that she got tied up in the criminal 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.520 world as well, and you know, selling rugs and this 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.960 kind of thing. So that was the environment I grew 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:04.320 up in. 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:09.080 And I've read about. Yeah, your first first memory was 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:15.480 your father being arrested and fighting. That's your earliest child 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:20.360 childhood memory. So that would shape the way you think definitely. 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.800 And then at the time, I think you were five 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.520 when your mum got the rest and ended up getting 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:32.400 pulled away for two years, that's right. Did you have siblings? 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:33.840 No, it was just me, just me and her. 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:37.800 Okay, how like I'm trying to imagine that as a 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.400 five year old child. Look back at my children, how 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:44.280 innocent they are at that age. How did that make 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:44.760 you feel? 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:47.760 It's hard for me to know how I felt at 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:49.400 the time. I can think back to some of my 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:51.200 behaviors at the time and see the way I was 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:55.120 acting out, and yeah, it was just it was very confusing, 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:59.200 and obviously the arrest with Mom I can remember a 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:02.960 lot more vivid than the one with Dad, and it 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.560 was it was kind of actually something like you'd see 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.680 in the movies, you know, like where they where the 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.680 police kind of all rushed in and ripped the house apart, 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.080 and I just remember that, you know, the house being 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.160 torn apart, and then the next minute Mum was gone, 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:16.960 you know. 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.000 So then you're sitting there, probably police looking after you. 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:23.120 Initially you've never those are the people that from the 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.360 early age you've probably feared because it exactly come stormy 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.520 storming into your house. What what was done with you 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:30.280 at that point? 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:34.120 So I stayed with different family members for a while. Yeah, 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.960 some of which were better than others caring for me. 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.640 You know. One was an auntie who was actually really 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.720 good and that was kind of a stable period, I guess, 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:46.640 you know, she really cared for me and which I 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.400 look back on with some fondness. And another was a 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.880 grandparent who wasn't so it wasn't a good environment. 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:55.640 When you say that, what type of the type of 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.720 things were happening, Just. 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.679 Just a bit neglect for which messages little kids had 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:03.280 up and it expected because that was my That was 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.080 the same person that had been abusive to mum as 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:07.920 well growing up, So it makes sense that he wasn't 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:09.320 going to be great with me again. 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.120 This is the type of things that just carry on 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:16.640 from generation to generation. Did you experience any abuse in 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:24.920 those environments, not just the emotional abuse and neglect? How 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.480 long did you go back to your mom after she 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:28.240 got out of prison? 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.719 Yeah, which I did. So she did some time in 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:32.920 prison and then went to rehab for a little bit 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.920 and then we got back together. Kind of interesting stories. 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:38.360 She was actually meant to do a little bit more 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:42.040 time in that, but there was the Minister for Corrections 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:43.960 at the time. I don't know if you remember the 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:47.880 Rex Jackson. I think his Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, so 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:49.920 there was a thing where and I can say this 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.800 now she's passed, so it doesn't really matter. Yeah, so 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.680 the people she was working for paid him off to 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:57.280 have her sense introduced. 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:01.480 So okay, as bizarre as that sound, my recollection of 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:05.360 the historical situation. Rex Jackson was at Correctney Services, that's 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:09.960 the minister, and I think he ended up getting exposed 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.600 for taking money for early releases prisoners. 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:17.160 And yeah, she benefited from that. Thankful for Mom. She 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:19.240 was the ones that the ones that benefited. 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:21.760 Which was well from the fact that she was connected 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.440 to people, had the ability to reach out to the 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.480 minister tells you the sort of the way she was 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:28.200 living a life. 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:28.800 Sure does. 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.520 So the period of five five to twelve talk us through. 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.439 Yeah that, you know, look at that period, I kind 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:39.640 of I really looked up to Mum at that point. 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.320 You know, she was more like an older sister than 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:44.079 a mum to me. I never called her mum. I 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:46.880 always called her by her first name, right, I've never 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.120 I never referred to her as mom ever, you know, 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:54.640 and not until as an adult. And yeah, I looked 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:56.760 up to her. But she she really suffered, like she 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:00.840 really suffered with addiction. She had like able car accident 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.240 and had a lot of chronic pain and then you 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:06.920 know all the abuse and stuff that she had as 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:11.200 a kid and growing up. I blamed her so much, 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.680 you know, Yeah, absolutely, I was like, why doesn't she 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:17.960 love me the way I see other people being loved 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.520 or the way you think your parents meant to love you. Yeah, 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.360 And it wasn't until I was older and had my 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.680 own problems that you realized. I went, oh, okay, so 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.240 she was just a you know when I thought she 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.520 was an adult, she was in the twenties. Yeah, you know, 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:36.400 and she was really suffering too. And that doesn't mean 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.440 that the neglect and abuse didn't happen, but it just 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:40.640 means to understand you. 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.719 You understand where it's coming from. What about schooling did 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:45.720 you have it regular schooling? Did you have not? 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.640 Really? School was pretty so we moved around a lot. 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.359 Yeah, still around the Woollongong. 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:55.120 Yeah, different act, but every six months we'd move. So 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.360 back then, you know, when you were selling drugs, you 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.600 moved regularly because people would know where you lived, so 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.640 you'd have to move regularly. So for us, we moved 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.720 every six months because of that really, and that was 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:12.360 either generally to a completely different area. 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.200 Did you have any role models anyone that showed you 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:16.640 love and direction? 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.960 Not really, like my grandmother really cared for me a lot, 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.000 but yeah, that was something I definitely struggled with, and 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.800 especially male role models. There was there was no voids. Yeah, 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:31.959 and that was something that I definitely struggled with growing up, 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:34.400 trying to find my identity as a male. 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:39.720 Yeah, so moving a round comes with that. It's only 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:45.679 inherent complications that not being able to form friendship and relationships, 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.840 and that your submission that you did to the Parliamentary Inquiry, 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.319 as I said at the start, it was very powerful. 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.080 And I'm going to read a couple of things out 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:57.920 from there because I just think that and then I'll 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.720 get you to talk about it. And I'm looking at 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.240 my notes here and I said that I'm reading through 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.840 this it just made me sad, disappointed, and even angry. 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:12.000 So cool from the submission that you've made to Parliament. 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:14.880 I was only twelve when I was arrested for the 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:18.280 first time for minor property damage. By then, I'd already 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:22.800 been failed by schools, child services, police and adults. I 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.679 had trusted multiple opportunities to get me the help I 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.120 needed had been missed. I remember when I first arrested, 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:32.600 I was living in a tin shed in a backyard 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.200 with a pile of blankets for a bed. Police knew 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.680 I was being abused, but they still returned me to 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:41.920 the dangerous home after they arrested me. That's heavy. 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:47.280 Yeah, And it's interesting for me when I hear that. 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.640 It kind of doesn't seem like anything to me. And 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.640 then I have to try and think about what that 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.199 sounds like for other people, you know. And I think 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.000 about my friends who have got young kids that are 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.520 the same age now, you know, and I look at them, 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:04.840 and that's when it really hits me, when I say 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.920 another twelve year old and I go, fuck, They're like, 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.800 they're just a little kid, yeah, you know. And yeah, 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.920 like for me, the reason I was in that shed 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:18.840 was because it was unsafe in the house, you know, 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:23.720 So that was actually that was a place of refuge 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.480 for me to go to. Yeah, I just I felt 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.240 very unwelcome in the home. So for me, that was 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:31.080 a place of refuge. 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:33.480 The tin shed with a pile of blankets for a bed. 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:36.920 What concerns me is that the police knew I was 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:39.800 being abused, but they still return me to a dangerous 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:44.360 home after they arrested me. Not blaming individuals, I'm talking 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:47.400 the system here. It is a failing, isn't it. Like 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:50.680 I look at it and think, Okay, why have we 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:51.600 got this so wrong? 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:55.680 And you know what, sometimes when I when I used 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:57.360 to think about it, I thought, O, well, maybe this 0:14:57.480 --> 0:14:59.720 is because that was back then. Things are different now, 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.680 and I think, oh, well, that only happened because it 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.760 was you know, different years ago, a different time, and 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.080 then now working in the industry and working in and 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.720 realizing it's not it hasn't changed, you know. And even 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:17.520 though that people know that things should be done better 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.640 and that children should be cared for, the same thing 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.920 is still happening. You know. We're still locking up hundreds 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.680 of kids and putting them in prison, and we're not 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:29.840 caring for the children that actually need to be cared for. 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:32.760 And like I said, we're punishing them. And for me 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.240 that in the way the police took me back to 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:39.360 that environment, that was punishment, you know, because I was 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:43.320 told you're a bad person, you're doing something wrong, and 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:45.240 you need to change your behavior. 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.080 And it's almost a cry for help, and it would 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.920 be so confusing, And that's what makes me sad, thinking 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.280 of what's the mind of a twelve year old and 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.400 when the narrative is let's crack down on crime and 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:04.560 all that, what, Yeah, what hope has a child got 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.440 growing up in an environment like that with no role 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.800 models being abused. And I can imagine that the type 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.960 of people that your mum would have been attracting coming in. 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.960 And it's just I saw that in policing. I saw 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:22.200 the horrible results in homicide that the new man coming 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:26.040 into coming into the environment, It's true, just has a 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.880 dislike for the kids. For the kids. It's almost like 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:34.040 that animalistic animal kingdom like lions killing off the coves 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:35.720 of the other lines. 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.360 That's true because no man wants to support another man's child, 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.360 you know what I mean. And they're seen as a threat, 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:42.239 and that's that's kind of biological. 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:46.600 Well not not good men or not the proper proper men. 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.280 I read out, read out another another quote again because 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:55.920 it's so powerful. Six months later, I was found by 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.960 police living on the streets, forced to starve to escape 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.440 from further abuse at home, but no support was provided 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.800 to me. There was no curiosity from police about why 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.320 such a young child would choose the street save a shelter, 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:11.919 no questions about what was going on for me, and 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:13.960 that no attempt to make sure I had food in 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:16.760 the safe place to sleep. Police for return me to 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.960 an environment they knew was dangerous I was immediately violently assaulted. 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:27.719 It was repetitive and it happened. I could barely live 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.240 in cant how many times, you know. I remember another 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.560 time being taken home by the police and being punched 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:34.240 in the face in front. 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.240 Of the police, in front of the police, you know, And. 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:38.320 That was acceptable because I was, like I said, I 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:42.119 was a bad person, and I think that, you know. 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.119 And I as an adult, I don't hate police, and 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:49.600 as in my twenties, I never had that kind of 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.360 hatred towards police. As a kid, I definitely did. 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:53.800 Yeah, you know, and it was what I was taught, 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:56.240 was the environment. 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.680 Absolutely, I was taught to do that. But I understand 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.720 that when you're interacting with people, even if they are children, 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:05.359 and that person swears at you and tells you to 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.160 fuck off and cause your names, and you just see 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:11.960 them and you see their behaviors, it's understandable at face 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.800 value to not like that person, yeah, because you go, 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:19.840 this seems like a bad person. But I think it 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:24.800 does take effort for curiosity to go why is this 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:26.760 person doing what they're doing? And I don't know if 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.120 that's something that is taught in policing or not, well, 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:30.240 but it needs to be. 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.919 Yeah, you've made me reflect, and I think there's times 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:36.119 when early in the police and where I would have 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.480 taken kids home and I can hear the parents yelling 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:42.440 at the kid or whatever, but there was a judgment call. 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:47.359 I hope to think that, Okay, well this is normal discipline. 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:51.840 But yeah, the curiosity will why is he running away 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:56.800 the whole time? And we talk about child's sexual abuse 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.879 and you're not saying that, but I look back and 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.719 think of all these troubled kids and wonder what you've 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:04.840 been inside. You've been in prison, and you see how 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.600 many people are in there, men and women, because of 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.480 something that's happened to them in the past. But yeah, 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:17.200 the role of policing protect or prosecute twelve year old kid, 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.920 It's true, it's a hard thin. 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:23.080 And that was something I don't know if you wanted 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:25.280 to touch on it, but that second time when they 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:30.639 took me back, I'd literally just been sexually assaulted, you know, right, 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:36.399 So I'd gone back out onto the streets and because 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.120 I thought that was safer than being at home, and 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.200 I was trying to escape what was going on at home, 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:47.399 and I'd been missing for months and the police had 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:49.239 been looking for me for some time, and no one 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.320 knew where I was, and yeah, I ended up at 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:57.320 a refuge, like a children's refuge. Yeah, and some young 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.560 boys took me out to the park and me drunk 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:04.840 and one of them sexually abused me, right, and then 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:07.359 going back to the refuge. A couple of days later, 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:10.520 the people at the refuge found out that police were 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.320 looking for me, yeah, and basically said to me, like, 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.119 you know, you need to go back home. Will you 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:20.399 go back home and meet that age saying I'm not 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:22.400 going to go back home. But I told them I'd 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:24.840 go back home, and they gave me a bus fare 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.120 and said, okay, make your way back home, and how 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.080 are we I was twelve twelve, Yeah, and so I 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.720 just ran again basically, And then it was probably about 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.360 a month after that police found me. And again there 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:41.359 was like if ever, there was a time where there 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.760 should have been some you know, curiosity into what's going 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.040 on and what's happened to this kid? Like after being 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:52.080 missing for months and I didn't see a doctor, I 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:54.119 didn't see a psych no one. 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.320 I was going to ask you that. I was just thinking, 0:20:57.320 --> 0:20:59.520 how would police steal with that okay, we've called the 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:05.080 run away kid. And it was always about okay from 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:06.960 a policing point of view, And it doesn't sound good 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:08.760 when I say it, from a policing point of view. 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.120 How can we take our responsibility away from this week 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.880 and we put the kid that not to be further harmed, 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:20.159 put the kids safe. But I can't recall in all 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:22.800 my time in policing someone saying, hey, we need a 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:28.000 psychologist to sit down and have a chat with this child. 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.760 I'd like to think we've got a little bit wiser now, 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:36.200 but I see how it just catches up a couple 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:39.960 of things that I pick up on that your father's 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.840 lawyer advise you not to seek bail when you're in 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.480 detention at one stage because it was safe for being 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:47.760 on the streets. What was that about? 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:52.520 Yeah, well again, so you know this was after this 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:55.520 is a bit later on in life now, about fifteen sixteen, 0:21:55.680 --> 0:22:02.040 and I was homeless again. And yeah, at that point, 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:04.479