WEBVTT - Easey Street and ‘the boy with the knife’ 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:10.000 From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven Am. 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:14.080 If you ask someone from Melbourne, they'll almost certainly tell 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.799 you they've heard of the nineteen seventy seven Easy Street murders. 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:22.320 In one of Victoria's most brutal unsolved killings, two women 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.320 in their twenties were stabbed dozens of times late at 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:29.800 night in their home on Easy Street in Collingwood. Now, 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:33.199 after forty seven years and one hundred and thirty persons 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:37.560 of interest, police have finally made an arrest. Today journalist 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.600 and author of Murder on Easy Street Helen Thomas on 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.040 the killings that haunted Melbourne and the suspect known as 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:52.040 the Boy with the Knife that police missed. It's Tuesday, 0:00:52.440 --> 0:01:07.080 September twenty four. So hi, Helen, thank you so much 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:09.440 for joining me on seven Am. It's great to speak 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:11.680 with you. Nice of you to invite me, Ruby, Thank 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:14.679 you so Helen. Over the weekend there was this huge 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:18.080 development in the Easy Street murders. You have followed this 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:21.160 case for decades, So what was your first thought when 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:22.760 you heard about this arrest? 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:23.360 Ruby? 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.560 I think, like everyone, I was astonished on Saturday morning 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.000 when that news came through. I think it's the news 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:32.120 everyone wanted to hear for such a long time, But 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.160 it had been such a long time it seemed unbelievable initially. 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.960 So let's talk about the two women who were killed 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.320 forty seven years ago. Now, the two sues, as they 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:47.080 were known, Suzanne Armstrong and Susan Bartlett. What do we 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:49.080 know about their life in Easy Street? 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.520 Well before Easy Street, they had grown up together in 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.440 Country Victoria, in a town called Bonella. They'd gone to 0:01:55.440 --> 0:02:00.680 school together, and they'd remained friends into their late teenage 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:04.200 and early twenties, and so, in fact, not long before 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.880 they moved into the house to share in Easy Street 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:12.320 in Collingwood, they traveled internationally together. They'd gone to Greece 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.839 in fact, and had spent several weeks zooming round and 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:21.239 then eventually ended back in Melbourne obviously, and Susan was 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:23.800 teaching at a school nearby. She was an arts and 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.320 craft teacher, and Suzanne was sort of druggling casual work 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:31.440 as she looked after her son. And they moved into 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:34.960 Easy Street just a couple of months before this terrible 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:36.120 double homicide occurred. 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.040 Okay, so tell me what we know happened to the 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:42.880 two women. To Suzanne Armstrong and Susan Bartlett. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.600 The murder allegedly took place on the night of January 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.960 the tenth, or earlier the following morning, and it wasn't 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:54.040 until the Thursday, two days later, three nights had gone 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.919 past when they were finally found or their bodies were found, 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.639 and of course Susanne Armstrong wrong sixteen month old toddler 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:05.280 was also in the house, unharmed, but alone for that 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:10.720 length of time in his cot in the middle room. 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:14.960 The young women's bodies were found finally by one of 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.519 the women who lived next door who sort of shared 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:21.200 the fence, and she and her housemate began to get 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.799 a little bit worried because they could hear Susanne's son crime, 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:29.040 which was really unusual, particularly through Wednesday night. They became 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.120 alarmed and alone of Stevens, who was the neighbor who 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:36.040 found the bodies, basically climbed her fence and went in 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:39.560 the back door and walked into a terrible scene. You know, 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:44.360 Susan lying in the hallway and Suzanne in the front bedroom. 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:47.280 So she called out and said call the police. You know, 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:50.320 the girls are dead, And one of the first two 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.160 detectives to walk through the door is long retired as 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.480 a detective, Peter Hiscock. He still says that hardly a 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.200 day goes by that he doesn't think of the to 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:04.080 young women and that scene because it was so awful 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:06.560 and the violence had been so bad. 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.360 Still to this day now we're talking about it. Now, 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.200 I can see it just like a video in my mind. 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.360 It's on record that both women collectively have been stabbed 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:18.359 more than eighty times. 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:24.320 This was something quite unique. No forced entry to girls 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:28.880 brutally murdered. Now, in those days you wouldn't see too 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:31.839 many and I don't recall those days too many brutal 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.960 murders like these too. I mean, with time the internet, 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:38.800 we'd see lots and lots of these things. But back 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.720 in those days, back in nineteen seventy seven in Victoria 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:47.880 in Collingwood, that was one massive double murder. 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.280 So how did police respond to tell me about their investigation? 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.120 Well, as you can imagine, it was a huge story 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.919 in Melbourne, and what police did at the time was 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.840 they walked the blocks up and down Easy Street. Obviously, 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.400 they walked around, they tried to collect as much evidence 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:10.320 as they could, and they obviously quickly tried to I guess, 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.000 locate as many people as they could who knew the women, 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:15.200 who might be able to give them an idea of 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:18.080 who might have visited on the day or on the night, 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:21.560 And from that point, I think it's fair to say 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.400 that in the early stages they thought they would be 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.599 able to solve it quite quickly because they're seeing to 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:31.080 them to be so much evidence on the scene, because 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:35.960 there was so much blood and in those days, let's remember, 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:39.760 they were working with blood samples or blood analysis and fingerprinting. 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.320 But as time went on, it became apparent that it 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:45.680 was not going to be a case that was going 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:46.480 to be sold quickly. 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:51.520 So why was that? Why was it that, despite this 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.359 kind of initial sense that there was a lot of 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.520 evidence at this crime scene and that should be straightforward 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:01.200 to find out what had happened, that that nothing did happen. 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:10.280 They focused, and understandably at the time, focused on two suspects. Initially, 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.960 one was a young man who'd been out, had taken 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.640 Suzanne out a couple of times, and it left her 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.839 a note in the house the night before the bodies 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.520 were found asking for her to call him. 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.640 And there was still no answer. So I went down 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.919 the side, and the gate was halfway open and the 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.880 door was halfway open, and there was a light on, 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:39.280 and your brother I got a note and for her 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:44.600 to ring me. And then you know, if I had 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:46.800 walked in a little bit further, well, I would have 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:49.320 spot on you another couple of yards. 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:54.640 And then the other main person of interest very quickly 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:58.279 became a young crime reporter who had been actually staying 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.200 next door. He worked for Truth, and those were the 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.320 two people initially that they focused on. They had an 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.000 original suspect list of eight, and over time, as you know, 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:12.480 the years and the decades went on, it wasn't until DNA, 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.480 as a forensic tool came into play that he was 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.240 eventually cleared, as were the other seven suspects on that 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.400 original list, and they basically had to start again, and 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.840 so decades passed until finally in twenty seventeen, which marks 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.720 the fortieth anniversary, if we want to use that term, 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:32.680 of the case of the murders comes up and the 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:37.560 police announced a million dollar award, which is something that 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:42.280 the Armstrong family particularly had been arguing for. They always 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.720 felt that there never had been a big enough reward 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.360 offered to get new information, and so once that happened. 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.320 There was, you know, the cases back in the public 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:55.440 eye again. That's when they go back into the files 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:58.600 and checked on the I think there were just over 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.960 one hundred and thirty people in the file that they 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:04.480 went back and said, Okay, we better sit down and 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.480 really go through this file and see who we should 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:08.280 be talking to. 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:15.280 After the break the evidence police missed, including the boy 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:26.640 with the knife. Helen, you've written a book about the 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:30.720 murders of Susanne Armstrong and Susan Bartlett murder on Easy Street. 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:33.640 Could you tell me a bit more about your involvement 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.920 and your interest in the case. Well, I started. 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.320 Work on the book not long after the reward had 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:43.320 been announced in twenty seventeen, but initially I started looking 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:46.920 at the case back in two thousand and five. So 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.559 I contacted the detective at the time who had the fire. 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:55.040 He was very keen to talk, and literally about half 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.079 an hour before I was literally walking out the door 0:08:58.120 --> 0:08:59.760 to go and see him because the interview had been 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:04.280 a proved. He rang and was very apologetic but said 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.559 I'm so sorry that approval has been withdrawn. It always 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:10.040 struck me as old Ruby. The one minute there was 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:14.920 commission next minute there wasn't. So when the reward was announced, 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.440 I thought, well, you know what, I might give this 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.880 another go and have another look at this case. And 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:25.320 again the police weren't keen to talk. But that's when 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.640 I thought, I found it talk to me. I better 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:29.480 start knocking on a few doors. And that's when I 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:32.800 did start literally walking up and down Easy Street, hoping 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.120 that there might be people who were still in that 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.559 street and around in the area who remembered the time, 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:40.640 and there were. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:43.680 What did you find out when you knocked on doors 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:45.920 and started talking to people on Easy Street? 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:48.160 I think the thing that was interesting was the fact 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:51.640 that as much as the police had done that canvassing initially, 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:56.679 as much as it taken so much information and evidence 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.120 from the house, what I did find was that a 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.760 number of people had han't been spoken to, perhaps most 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:04.959 importantly a woman who lived next door. I mean, there 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.800 was a little dunny lane that separated her house and 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:13.280 where the two suits were living, and she maintained that 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.000 she had seen someone in the house the night the 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:20.040 girls were killed, and yet the police didn't take that statement. 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.120 We've finally found that they did take her statement, but 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.800 only after truth newspaper had interviewed her sort of a 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.160 year on from the murder, so she was a really 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:35.080 important witness that for whatever a series of reasons, hadn't 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:39.200 given her account straight away. By the time I heard 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:44.000 this story, she had died, but I met one of 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.960 her neighbors who she had said she'd seen a man 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.960 walking out of the back gate where the two young 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:55.520 women had been living, and he walked towards Easy Street 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:57.320 and he had a knife in his hand. That's what 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.920 she told the neighbor who's still living in the street now. 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.880 And to Truth newspaper she said she got up and 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.560 looked through at about two am in the morning and 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:13.520 looked through her landrum window and saw a man sitting 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:18.280 in the room opposite and having drinks with Susan Bartlett. 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.800 And Helen. We're now at a point where a man, 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.360 a sixty five year old man, has been arrested in 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:28.880 Italy over the murders. So what did police discover that 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:33.280 led to this arrest after forty seven years, Well, Ruby, 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:34.160 it seems. 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:38.480 That you know, in reopening the case or reinvestigating the case, 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.840 they came across the name of a young well a 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:46.200 teenager at the time. Seventeen. I believe who was pulled over. 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.920 His car was searched, this is again what's been alleged, 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.400 and a knife was found. It had dried blood on 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:57.199 the handle. It was handed to detectives and that's basically 0:11:58.320 --> 0:11:59.920 the end of the story up until now. 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:04.880 A sixty five year old Australian Greek national was arrested 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:09.480 in Rome around nine pm on Thursday evening. He was 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:13.560 arrested on an Interpol red notice and that was because 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.720 we had warrants out for his arrest for two charges 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.000 of murder and one charge of rape. 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:23.080 He remained the suspect now as they describe him, was 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:25.880 never seen as a suspect then. He was just one 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.360 of many people that was pulled over and spoken to 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:34.080 by police within the week after the murders. He was 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:38.440 contacted again by police in twenty seventeen. He agreed to 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:42.120 undergo a DNA test, but failed to attend a meeting 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:46.200 to provide a sample. Now, according to one of John 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.160 Silvester's pieces over the last few days, the man of 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.760 Greek descent flew to Athens about seven years ago and 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:54.280 refused to return, despite saying he was going for a 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.600 short holiday. A DNA sample taken from a close relative 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:00.320 has match to a seaman sample found under the body 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:01.240 of Susan Anstrong. 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:06.360 He wasn't able to be arrested in Greece. There is 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:13.440 a twenty years I understand statute bar on initiation of 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:19.600 murder charges. These our warrant wasn't issued within that twenty 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:24.880 year period, and so it was a matter of waiting, 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.840 if you like, until he was outside of Greece. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.040 And the sixty five year old suspect who still in 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.800 Italy has been identified as Perry Crumblus and he was 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.080 actually a student at Collingwood High where Susan Bartler taught 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:40.640 nearly half a century ago. 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:44.079 And you've been speaking with the families, I believe for 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.800 the women since the arrest, what have they said? 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:53.280 Look, I think they are just so in a way 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:58.720 relieved that this development has occurred. I think they are 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.440 incredibly grateful that the police never gave up. They never 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.000 gave up, and the police never gave up, and so 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:07.160 that gave them the hope to keep maintaining the sort 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.880 of well in his hope, isn't it. They've endured that 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:14.079 length of time hoping that something like this could happen, 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.760 and it has happened. But you know, at the same time, 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.080 someone said to me the other day, are they you know, 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:21.680 are they excited? Are they happy? 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:21.960 No? 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.480 I don't think that's how I describe their response. I 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:30.320 think they're incredibly grateful and they're relieved. And as I mentioned, 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.360 Peter Hiscock, one of the first two detectives on the 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:38.000 scene in easy history, he believed that this case wouldn't 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.840 be solved in his lifetime. As much as he remembers it, 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:44.400 as much as he can't forget what he found when 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:47.080 he walked into that little house, he just thought too 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:50.440 much time had gone by. It's almost impossible to believe 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:52.560 that we've got to this point, but we. 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.320 Have just finally. Helen, having looked at this case for 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.840 so long, and having spoken to neighbors and people that 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.880 near where these murders took place, how much do you 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:06.440 think that this case changed Melbourne? 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.560 I think the impact these murders had on the city 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.320 had to do with the fact that here were two vibrant, 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:18.760 intelligent young women vaguely stad in their own home where 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.600 we're all supposed to be saved. It was something unimaginable 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.520 and it happened at a time when really not everyone 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:29.040 locked their door, not everyone had bars on their windows. 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.280 It was just a different era. It was just a 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:37.600 different moment in Melbourne and in Australia at the time. 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.960 If we go back just eighteen months, another young woman 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:45.240 disappeared but has since been declared to be a homicide victim, 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:50.000 Julie Garcis Salay, disappeared from North Melbourne. From that point on, 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:54.359 for the next ten years, something like twenty women, including 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:59.200 Susan Bartlett and Susanne Armstrong were murdered in Melbourne and 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:03.400 those cases haven't been sold until this weekend. No arrests 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.000 have been made in those matters. It just seems that 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:12.480 was an incredibly violent decade for women in Melbourne. 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:17.480 Yeah, absolutely, Helen, thank you so much for your time. Yes. 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:18.080 Thanks Ruby. 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:38.160 Also in the news today, the Australian Competition and Consumer 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:42.440 Commission has launched legal action against Coals and Toolworths, alleging 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:46.520 the supermarket giants breached consumer law by increasing the prices 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.920 of hundreds of items by at least fifteen percent before 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:54.240 later selling them at regular prices labeled as discounted. In 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:57.600 separate statements, Wilworth says we'll carefully review the claims and 0:16:57.720 --> 0:16:59.520 engage with the AGE that we'll see on the matter. 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.480 Cole says it will defend the proceedings, blaming inflation for 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:07.520 the price changes, and the Australian government has announced it 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.920 will provide an additional ten million dollars in response to 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:15.040 the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza. It says funding will 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.240 be directed to UNICEF and the United Nations Population Fund 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:23.120 to provide life saving assistants, including nutrition, support and hygiene 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:27.160 for women and girls. Since October seven, Australia has committed 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:31.080 eighty two point five million dollars in humanitarian assistance to Gaza. 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.479 I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.