WEBVTT - Taking the children away

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<v Speaker 1>Katherine, Aboriginal Entirestradia Lander children are overrepresented at all stages

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<v Speaker 1>of the child protection system in all states and territories.

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<v Speaker 1>To start, can you just lay out the scale of

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<v Speaker 1>the problem.

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry for the pause, but it's just I need to

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<v Speaker 2>take a breath before I say it, because the numbers

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<v Speaker 2>are obscene.

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<v Speaker 1>Catherine Little is the CEO of SNAKE, the national body

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<v Speaker 1>that represents Aboriginal and Entirestrata Lander children and their families.

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<v Speaker 1>Every year, Catherine and her team document how First Nation's

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<v Speaker 1>children are faring and how they're treated, and yet again

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<v Speaker 1>the picture is devastating.

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<v Speaker 2>Aboriginal and Torres straight Islander children are nine point six

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<v Speaker 2>times more likely to be an out of home care

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<v Speaker 2>and on third party parental responsibility orders, which is a

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<v Speaker 2>zero point five percent increase from twenty twenty two to

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty three. Now that might not sound like a

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<v Speaker 2>big jump, but it is massive effectively. What it means

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<v Speaker 2>is in just the last six months alone, an estimated

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand Aboriginal and tourist Right Islander children have been

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<v Speaker 2>put into out of home care two thousand in about

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<v Speaker 2>six months.

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<v Speaker 1>Catherine's report shows that Aboriginal and tirest rate Islander children

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<v Speaker 1>more likely to be reported to authorities, They're more likely

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<v Speaker 1>to be taken away from their families, and they spend

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<v Speaker 1>more time institutionalized. For every dollar the government spends on this,

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<v Speaker 1>only sixteen cents goes to helping families. The rest is

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<v Speaker 1>on taking children away.

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<v Speaker 2>Those child removals create an enormous amount of self harm.

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<v Speaker 2>We know that they're less likely to be able to

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<v Speaker 2>enter the workforce. We know they're more likely to have

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<v Speaker 2>mental health issues, aboriginal torrestrate Islander children are more likely

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<v Speaker 2>to be abused in out of home care settings and

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<v Speaker 2>in residential care settings and any institutional setting in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>That is where the highest rate of assaults against our

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<v Speaker 2>children happen. And it's not like it's something governments aren't

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<v Speaker 2>aware of.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM today

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<v Speaker 1>Snake CEO Catherine Little on the damage the child protection

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<v Speaker 1>system is doing the First Nation's children. What needs to

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<v Speaker 1>be done to break the cycle. It's Monday, December fifteenth. Catherine.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's start at the beginning of the chain with notifications.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me how they work.

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<v Speaker 2>So notifications basically mean that someone's expressing in a concern

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<v Speaker 2>about a child. Now, this is good and fair enough.

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<v Speaker 2>So a notification, though, could be something like you're a

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<v Speaker 2>school teacher and you've noticed that a child hasn't brought

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<v Speaker 2>lunch to school. In the Northern territory where you see

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<v Speaker 2>massive numbers of notifications, that is usually things like lice

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<v Speaker 2>or scabies, and these are communicable health issues, they're not

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<v Speaker 2>actually child protection issues. These things it shows that there

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<v Speaker 2>are fundamental failings in systems and the ability to get

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<v Speaker 2>help to children. So when you look at the numbers

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<v Speaker 2>and then you look at what happens as a response

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<v Speaker 2>to those numbers, as opposed to getting immediate help to

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<v Speaker 2>families instead, what we're doing is removing children for life,

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<v Speaker 2>many cases for life.

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<v Speaker 1>In many cases, cash through women are being reported to

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<v Speaker 1>authorities while they are still pregnant. When that happens, how

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<v Speaker 1>does that change the outlook for the baby once it's born.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, look, it's absolutely horrific. There is an example of

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<v Speaker 2>a hospital that every single Aboriginal mother presenting had a

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<v Speaker 2>notification to child Protection before that child was born. The

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<v Speaker 2>highest number of removals are children between zero and two.

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<v Speaker 2>Horrific times to be removing children, but also the most

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<v Speaker 2>critical times to be able to jump in and support families.

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<v Speaker 2>When you look at say South Australia where the Aboriginal

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<v Speaker 2>Children's Commissioner did massive review on what was happening to

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<v Speaker 2>children there and she found homelessness was actually the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>common denominator in those removals. So instead of notifications going

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<v Speaker 2>to a housing accommodation option, it was a notification to

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<v Speaker 2>child protection. What we know across the board, it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>matter if your Aboriginal law, any other socioeconomic group or

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<v Speaker 2>racial group. The biggest common denominator in child removals is

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<v Speaker 2>access to early education and care. And those children haven't

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<v Speaker 2>had access to those services, they haven't had access to

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<v Speaker 2>the supports that come in early and say hey do

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<v Speaker 2>you need a little bit of help? And that comes

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<v Speaker 2>down to the way the child protection system is built,

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<v Speaker 2>and that is it is built to remove children from

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<v Speaker 2>families in crisis as opposed to supporting children and families

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<v Speaker 2>to thrive.

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<v Speaker 1>And you mentioned the role of schools and teach but

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<v Speaker 1>who is making these notifications. Which organizations are most responsible

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<v Speaker 1>for throwing Aboriginal entire strata onto families into the child

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<v Speaker 1>protection system.

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<v Speaker 2>It'll vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In Victoria it is schools.

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<v Speaker 2>Often in other states and territories it might be police.

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<v Speaker 2>And again that comes down to things like mandatory reporting,

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<v Speaker 2>so you don't necessarily know where that notification is coming from.

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<v Speaker 2>And look, we need this system. Children need to be protected.

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<v Speaker 2>No one is ever going to argue that there shouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be a need for mandatory reporting, or that there should

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<v Speaker 2>be a need for something that is able to pick

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<v Speaker 2>up where a child might be at true risk of

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<v Speaker 2>danger or true risk of neglect. But one of the

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<v Speaker 2>common things that we're starting to hear, particularly for children

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<v Speaker 2>who are coming out of the out of home care system,

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<v Speaker 2>and they've reported it to commissioners right across the country,

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<v Speaker 2>they say, you know this mandatory reporting that you're all

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<v Speaker 2>talking about, when are you going to change that dialogue

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<v Speaker 2>to mandatory support? When will that become what you're actually

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<v Speaker 2>investing in in that is, you've seen a family in need,

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<v Speaker 2>how do you support them as opposed to report them.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about police and their ability to properly assess

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<v Speaker 1>what is happening within a First nation's family. We've seen

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<v Speaker 1>on a number of occasions in Queensland and the Northern

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<v Speaker 1>Territory in Wa and in Victoria allegations or evidence of

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<v Speaker 1>racial profiling or systemic racism within the force. So what

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<v Speaker 1>happens when that culture is tasked with making assessments about

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<v Speaker 1>a family's capacity to care for their children.

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<v Speaker 2>It is genuinely not their remit. Being able to genuinely

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<v Speaker 2>make those assessments takes an understanding of what the stresses

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<v Speaker 2>of that family might be. It takes the ability to

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<v Speaker 2>be able to understand that just because you're poor does

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<v Speaker 2>not mean that your children are not loved. It takes

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<v Speaker 2>the ability to understand that different people live differently. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know about you, but you know it took

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<v Speaker 2>me ages to get my kids to stop sharing a

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<v Speaker 2>bit because that's how they like to sleep, and in

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<v Speaker 2>Aboriginal families it's quite normal. If you're not familiar with

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<v Speaker 2>those types of lifestyles and ways of understanding what families

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<v Speaker 2>are and how they function, then it can look very

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<v Speaker 2>very different. Now again, when we look at the child

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<v Speaker 2>protection numbers. Vakka here in Victoria had done a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of done a lot of testing of things, and they'd

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<v Speaker 2>heard that in the United States. Once they stopped identifying

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<v Speaker 2>that a child was Aboriginal, the number of notifications and

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<v Speaker 2>the number of substantiations and the number of child removals

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<v Speaker 2>flatlined and became less than what was being experienced in

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<v Speaker 2>the non Aboriginal communities in the US. So they did

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<v Speaker 2>a little mini trial of that through Vakka and found

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<v Speaker 2>exactly the same thing. The moment they deidentified children as

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<v Speaker 2>being Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander, then the numbers balanced.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up. Now, changing the child protection system is the

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<v Speaker 1>real test for Treaty Catherine. Before we deal further into

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<v Speaker 1>what happens after a child is removed, I want to

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<v Speaker 1>know how the process should look. So say a teacher

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<v Speaker 1>or a healthcare worker notices that a family member may

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<v Speaker 1>be having trouble and a child may be in danger,

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<v Speaker 1>what should happen?

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<v Speaker 2>There should be a process within the school that has

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<v Speaker 2>a relationship with the Aboriginal community controlled services that sit

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<v Speaker 2>around those families. We know that where schools have fantastic

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<v Speaker 2>relationships with those services, where you've got the Aboriginal workers

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<v Speaker 2>in the school and you've got a really trusting environment,

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<v Speaker 2>you don't even need to make a notification because it's

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<v Speaker 2>already been picked up, and they've already identified ways to

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<v Speaker 2>get children to say, jeez up, babies had a cold

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<v Speaker 2>for a long time, maybe they need an antibiotic. In

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<v Speaker 2>the early childhood space we get a much better, better result,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's because we have more Aboriginal community controlled earlier services.

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<v Speaker 1>We know that what should happen is largely not what

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<v Speaker 1>is happening. So tell me about the reality. What happens

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<v Speaker 1>once a child is removed, Where do they go?

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<v Speaker 2>Look? It really depends on where they are and what

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<v Speaker 2>is available. So usually it goes into a short term

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<v Speaker 2>placement while it's worked out what will happen to a child.

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<v Speaker 2>So one of the things that we experienced as a family,

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<v Speaker 2>one of our family members was removed and no one

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<v Speaker 2>knew where that child was, and trying to find that

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<v Speaker 2>child world was incredibly difficult. You finally find out that

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<v Speaker 2>there have been no foster care as available in Alice Springs,

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<v Speaker 2>so baby has been sent to Darwin to stay with

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<v Speaker 2>a family in Darwin. This is a child from a

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<v Speaker 2>first language family, so there is no one in the

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<v Speaker 2>home that they have been sent to that can speak

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<v Speaker 2>the language of what is a very very distressed child.

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<v Speaker 2>We tried really really hard to find this little one.

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<v Speaker 2>It took about three months to find where he was.

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<v Speaker 2>And when we were trying to get him back, what

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<v Speaker 2>we were saying was, well, why did you not reach

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<v Speaker 2>out to family members? We are a really highly functioning family.

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<v Speaker 2>There is no way you couldn't have found someone. And

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<v Speaker 2>in the end it took us two years, two years

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<v Speaker 2>to be able to get that child back. And across

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<v Speaker 2>the child protection system, that's pretty much the norm you've.

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<v Speaker 1>Done and report the shows where First Nations kids end

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<v Speaker 1>up when they exit the system, when they leave out

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<v Speaker 1>of home care, where do they invariably end up.

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<v Speaker 2>So the numbers in this report are showing a really

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<v Speaker 2>big acceleration in the number of children who, once they

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<v Speaker 2>leave care, enter the juvenile justice system. The earlier they

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<v Speaker 2>hit those juvenile justice systems, the less likely they are

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<v Speaker 2>to come out of them. We're also seeing a number

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<v Speaker 2>of children choose homelessness as soon as they can, so

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<v Speaker 2>as soon as you're able to place yourself independently, we're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing children would rather be homeless than stay within the

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<v Speaker 2>child protection system. This tells you something really horrific. And

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<v Speaker 2>we're also seeing a lot of children choosing just to

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<v Speaker 2>go CouchSurfing because again, that is safer for us, and

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<v Speaker 2>we feel more secure in CouchSurfing than we would in

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<v Speaker 2>a placement where we don't know what's going to happen

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<v Speaker 2>to us, we don't know how long we're there for.

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<v Speaker 2>We're unstable, we're unclear about what's happening. And again it

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<v Speaker 2>shows a fundamental failing in not investing in families first

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<v Speaker 2>and keeping childrens first. It is the biggest misnomer ever

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<v Speaker 2>the child protection system.

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<v Speaker 1>And finally, Catherine, last week, the Premier apologized to First

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<v Speaker 1>Nations people in Victoria.

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<v Speaker 3>If this apology is to carry more than words and

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<v Speaker 3>the intention of members today, then we must certify through

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<v Speaker 3>what we do next. The treaty is not merely a gesture.

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<v Speaker 3>It is a pathway to healing and change.

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<v Speaker 1>So what would that actually look like in the child

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<v Speaker 1>protection system?

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<v Speaker 2>Look, this year's report, our tenth year of the Family

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<v Speaker 2>Matters Report, is a really clear roadmap. And while we've

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<v Speaker 2>been talking about some really heavy stuff, it actually is

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<v Speaker 2>a story of hope. It says, look, we can't shy

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<v Speaker 2>away from the things that have happened to harm us

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<v Speaker 2>and the things that continue to harm us, which is

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<v Speaker 2>essentially why we have things like a treaty in apology,

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<v Speaker 2>but it also says with self determination, the ability to

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<v Speaker 2>make decisions about yourself, we get a very very different

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<v Speaker 2>outcome when Aboriginal families are involved in the decisions about

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<v Speaker 2>the things that affect them. When we're able to invest

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<v Speaker 2>in families not crisis, we get a fundamentally different result.

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<v Speaker 2>And Family Matters has some incredible stories about how Aboriginal

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<v Speaker 2>community controlled organizations have said we're not going to play

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<v Speaker 2>in this narrative around a broken system, We're going to

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<v Speaker 2>build our own. They get significantly different results, and hopefully

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<v Speaker 2>that is what we'll see through treaty. The ability to

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<v Speaker 2>have some say in the decisions that affect us, the

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<v Speaker 2>ability to invest more in the solutions that work, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's good for everyone.

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<v Speaker 1>Catherine Little, thank you so much for your time, pleasure.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>For the most part of this year, I've been working

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<v Speaker 1>in the world of truth and treaty, working alongside the

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<v Speaker 1>First People's Assembly of Victoria, the Yurok Justice Commission, and

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<v Speaker 1>the government itself. With the numbers across the range of

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<v Speaker 1>indicators showing that First Peoples continue to go backwards when

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<v Speaker 1>it comes to being able to live happy and fulfilling lives.

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<v Speaker 1>How we treat and care for our children will be

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<v Speaker 1>the first and perhaps the major test as to whether

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<v Speaker 1>the treaty would have made a difference at all. Also

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<v Speaker 1>in the news, Michelle Rowland has been told to pay

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<v Speaker 1>back expenses she claimed after she built taxpayers more than

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<v Speaker 1>twenty one thousand dollars for a family trip to Perth

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty three. Last week, the Australian Financial Review

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<v Speaker 1>reporter on the trip, which included a claim for more

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<v Speaker 1>than sixteen thousand dollars in flights for her family. Roland

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<v Speaker 1>then referred the expenses to the Independent Parliamentary Authority, which

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<v Speaker 1>found that some of the spending was outside the guidelines.

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<v Speaker 1>And Two members of the US military and an American

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<v Speaker 1>civilian have been killed by a member of Islamic State

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<v Speaker 1>in Syria. The government also wounded three other people before

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<v Speaker 1>being killed himself following the attack. It's the first iLINK

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<v Speaker 1>attack on US troops since the fall of President Michelle

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<v Speaker 1>Alasad a year ago. A spokesperson for the Pentagon It's

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<v Speaker 1>at the attack targeted soldiers working on canter terrorism operations.

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<v Speaker 1>US President Donald Trump has promised to retaliate I'm Daniel James.

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<v Speaker 1>This is seven am. We'll be back tomorrow