1
00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,639
Speaker 1: I get a team. It's the project, that's you, it's Harps,

2
00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:09,480
Speaker 1: it's gillspow where tifless she's off doing tiff things and

3
00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:10,119
Speaker 1: no Melissa.

4
00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,039
Speaker 2: You know what we should do. We should get Melissa

5
00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:12,480
Speaker 2: back on.

6
00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,440
Speaker 1: She's always in the background, just you know, pedaling the

7
00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:19,960
Speaker 1: bike that powers the typ engine. We should get a

8
00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,439
Speaker 1: forward facing and interacting with you guys at some time,

9
00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,720
Speaker 1: at some stage, goalispo. Enough of that. How are you?

10
00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:29,240
Speaker 3: Yeah good? How are you?

11
00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,159
Speaker 1: I'm good. We just had a little bit of a

12
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,920
Speaker 1: chat off two or three minutes. Life's interesting, as we said,

13
00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,960
Speaker 1: but things that still keep moving on. Are you busy

14
00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,199
Speaker 1: with We'll talk about our topic in a moment, but

15
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:44,720
Speaker 1: are you busier than normal?

16
00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,360
Speaker 2: Or about the same at the minute?

17
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,240
Speaker 4: About the same and coming out to a book launch.

18
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,920
Speaker 4: So the new book comes out on the twenty eighth

19
00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,760
Speaker 4: of April. So there's some bits and pieces there, but

20
00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:00,840
Speaker 4: it's kind of a lull before the storm, you know,

21
00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,240
Speaker 4: sort of ramps up once once it launchers.

22
00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,959
Speaker 3: But yeah, for now, it's yeah, it's pretty average.

23
00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 1: Who's the publisher, Pam McMillan. Okay, so do they I mean,

24
00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,280
Speaker 1: obviously they have a whole pr team. Yeah, so get

25
00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,959
Speaker 1: your face facing the microphone. Craig, be something of a professional.

26
00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 1: They have a whole pr marketing, branding. David, we've got

27
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,400
Speaker 1: this for you. You've got to talk to these people. Print magazine.

28
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,600
Speaker 2: Ye see the radio blah blah blah. Have you got it?

29
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,120
Speaker 2: Have you got your schedule yet?

30
00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:34,680
Speaker 3: Not yet?

31
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,839
Speaker 4: They're working at They fill in the big bits first.

32
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,720
Speaker 4: So there's a bit of television, a bit of print.

33
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,640
Speaker 4: So they're filling it out as we speak.

34
00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:52,480
Speaker 1: And can we know the name yet or we oh yeah, barged.

35
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,000
Speaker 4: No, no, no, it's it's actually in the article that

36
00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,280
Speaker 4: we're going to talk about today, including the cover rocks,

37
00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:58,960
Speaker 4: which you will know because you've.

38
00:01:58,800 --> 00:01:59,800
Speaker 3: Undoubtedly read it.

39
00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:01,960
Speaker 1: Don't even start.

40
00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,320
Speaker 3: It's the attention Recovery Plan.

41
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, you mentioned that once. But that's good.

42
00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:11,600
Speaker 3: I'm so well do you think so?

43
00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,640
Speaker 4: You know, I'm not a fan of the title, but

44
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,799
Speaker 4: as you as you fellow author, No, you don't get

45
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,480
Speaker 4: to say in such things.

46
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,240
Speaker 3: I call it scatter brain.

47
00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,079
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I hate to tell you. I like that better.

48
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,639
Speaker 2: Now you're perplexed to me.

49
00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:30,359
Speaker 3: But I got told.

50
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,160
Speaker 2: I got told in a nice way. You know, this

51
00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:34,080
Speaker 2: isn't your book.

52
00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:38,600
Speaker 1: Right. I'm like, hey, you know it's our book. You're

53
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,640
Speaker 1: the author, and well done. Yeah, and it's our book.

54
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, okay, yeah, you.

55
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,520
Speaker 4: Write the stuff between the covers, but everything from the

56
00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:47,760
Speaker 4: cover ay out is ours.

57
00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,640
Speaker 1: And by the way, we're paying for all the stuff.

58
00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,839
Speaker 1: So settle down, settled down, Harps, you're not the star.

59
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:59,000
Speaker 1: I'm like Roger that back in back in hole and

60
00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,800
Speaker 1: what do you do you I don't know. I'm sure

61
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,240
Speaker 1: do you get nervous? You don't see me as you

62
00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,520
Speaker 1: don't seem to be a person who gets that.

63
00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,800
Speaker 4: Not Now you know, I've been doing this for yeah,

64
00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,440
Speaker 4: quite a long time now, it's coming up to two decades.

65
00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,840
Speaker 4: So I do remember the first time I did live

66
00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,400
Speaker 4: television and I remember being very very nervous of that.

67
00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,359
Speaker 4: But yeah, no, not so much now.

68
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,320
Speaker 1: Like TV is an interesting medium because, especially when you're

69
00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,320
Speaker 1: doing what you're doing, which is I guess, they wheel

70
00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,280
Speaker 1: you out for three to six minutes and it's all

71
00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,480
Speaker 1: quite to an extent choreographed and you know.

72
00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,040
Speaker 3: Do you vow? Yeah?

73
00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,320
Speaker 4: It was so I remember it well. It was Lisa

74
00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,960
Speaker 4: Wilkinson and I think Karl.

75
00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,960
Speaker 3: Stefanovic on Today and it was.

76
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 4: It was an outside broadcast on the cliffs that Kangaroo

77
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,800
Speaker 4: Point Risbone and you rock up there and they're doing

78
00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 4: the whole show from there, right, so they've got the

79
00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,840
Speaker 4: city as the backdrop, and it was raining, and so

80
00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,960
Speaker 4: I'm just standing out in the rain with the crew

81
00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,840
Speaker 4: waiting to be called in.

82
00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:16,400
Speaker 3: They'd given me a bit of.

83
00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,479
Speaker 4: A brief about you know, they're going to ask a

84
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,040
Speaker 4: bit about their new book, which was Sweet Poison at

85
00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:22,800
Speaker 4: the time. They're going to say this or that or

86
00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,920
Speaker 4: the other. And I went in and I think Lisa

87
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:33,480
Speaker 4: just went completely off script, just asked totally random and

88
00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,000
Speaker 4: unexpected questions and it was Yeah, it was a bit

89
00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,919
Speaker 4: hard thinking on your feet, and it was live. There

90
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:42,360
Speaker 4: was no duovers on this stuff.

91
00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I don't know. It's funny

92
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,880
Speaker 1: because I did a morning thing on Channel ten for

93
00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:55,040
Speaker 1: three weekly morning things, so they had the fucking I

94
00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,159
Speaker 1: don't know morning show or whatever it's called with David

95
00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,960
Speaker 1: Rain and the other ladies. My mind, sorry, but they

96
00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,320
Speaker 1: were the other way. They're like, I'm like, oh, well,

97
00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,640
Speaker 1: let's just I'll come out and sit on the couch

98
00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:09,360
Speaker 1: and let's just see where we go. We know what

99
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 1: topic we're talking about and they're like, but what do

100
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,400
Speaker 1: you want them to ask you? I'm like, whatever they want,

101
00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,119
Speaker 1: it's this, like I know this, and if I can't

102
00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,280
Speaker 1: answer it, then it's not something I should know, you know.

103
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,640
Speaker 1: And that made that They didn't like that. They wanted

104
00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,400
Speaker 1: essentially for me to give them five or six questions

105
00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:28,640
Speaker 1: and then that'd work around that.

106
00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,640
Speaker 4: And I yeah, Morning TV wants it's scripted. They want

107
00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,440
Speaker 4: they want the questions and the answers done in advance,

108
00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,240
Speaker 4: and preferably a slide that they can put up with

109
00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,160
Speaker 4: the answers you're going to give, you know.

110
00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:46,120
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm like, I'm terrible at that, right, I'm barely

111
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:46,640
Speaker 1: good at this.

112
00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,760
Speaker 2: But I also did a no ob.

113
00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,000
Speaker 1: Outside broadcast at the Melbourne Show and they were terrified

114
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,800
Speaker 1: because they couldn't they couldn't do that, And I'm like, well,

115
00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,400
Speaker 1: we're talking about this and wherever. And also at the time,

116
00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,320
Speaker 1: I was working in radio and I was doing five

117
00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:08,000
Speaker 1: hour live shifts, right, so you might have in five

118
00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,360
Speaker 1: hours be on the phone with fifty different people and

119
00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,520
Speaker 1: none of it's scripted. It's all in real time. There's

120
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,440
Speaker 1: seven seconds delay. You're throwing to ads, you're coming back

121
00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,840
Speaker 1: from ads, you're throwing to the news, you're doing time checks,

122
00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,560
Speaker 1: station IDs, weather checks. It's all organic in it. So

123
00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,720
Speaker 1: for then me to sit there and go right that

124
00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,960
Speaker 1: five minutes and everything needs to be kind of scripted,

125
00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,720
Speaker 1: I'm like, ah, really, And after about three efforts that

126
00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,520
Speaker 1: I got called to the executive producer, a lady called Sandy,

127
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,960
Speaker 1: who was amazing, and she went, yeah, just do you

128
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,000
Speaker 1: it's better. I'm like, yeah, thank god, just talk to me.

129
00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,159
Speaker 1: Let's just talk. But they get very nervous about having

130
00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,040
Speaker 1: someone on and that they almost want to know what

131
00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:52,839
Speaker 1: are you going to say? Though I go, I don't

132
00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,280
Speaker 1: know what I'm going to say because I don't plan

133
00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:56,240
Speaker 1: what I'm going to say.

134
00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,000
Speaker 4: The trouble is, as you will have discovered with me,

135
00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,680
Speaker 4: is that I tend to give very long answers to things.

136
00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,839
Speaker 4: And you know, as you say, a TV spot is

137
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:09,560
Speaker 4: five minutes maximum, and you know, if they say say

138
00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,080
Speaker 4: whatever you want, I'd get halfway through my first answer.

139
00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. Kim is that lady's name, by

140
00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,000
Speaker 1: the way, And that's why you and I are good

141
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,240
Speaker 1: in this format because we can talk for twenty minutes

142
00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 1: or an hour. It doesn't matter, and there's there's no

143
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,680
Speaker 1: anythings anyway. Are you've written a couple of good well

144
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,440
Speaker 1: you always write good articles. But we were going to

145
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,400
Speaker 1: talk about sweetness today. That was Craig Harper's plan, who

146
00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,280
Speaker 1: did do some research. Thank you very much. However, we

147
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,760
Speaker 1: could still do that. No, no buggier, as my mom says, buggier,

148
00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:44,160
Speaker 1: no buggier. It's probably a terrible thing to say, Mary

149
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,960
Speaker 1: that I just said. I've realized that. So today on

150
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,560
Speaker 1: substack is an article by the Great Man called TeX's

151
00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:56,520
Speaker 1: Big Tobacco Moment has arrived. I'm just going to read

152
00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,800
Speaker 1: a little bit. Then you're just going to take over it.

153
00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 1: I'm going to go get a hand, get to do

154
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,800
Speaker 1: most minimum of chips, and I'll come back and you'll

155
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,960
Speaker 1: just be whinding up. For years, the architects of our

156
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:12,040
Speaker 1: digital world have operated with impunity. They built algorithmic poker machines,

157
00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,800
Speaker 1: handed them to children, and then hid behind the legal

158
00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,800
Speaker 1: shield of free speech when the Neurological Bill came due.

159
00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,360
Speaker 1: So we're talking about, obviously tech and the impact of that.

160
00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:30,040
Speaker 1: What we've spoken about tech a bit. What is this

161
00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,880
Speaker 1: telling us that we don't know what might be new

162
00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:33,360
Speaker 1: in here?

163
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,679
Speaker 4: This is a very, very big deal, and I don't

164
00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,880
Speaker 4: say that lightly in a legal space. As you know,

165
00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,760
Speaker 4: I don't normally write about the law, but this is

166
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,560
Speaker 4: one of those rare times when the law intersects with

167
00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,120
Speaker 4: something I do write about, which is the effect that

168
00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,160
Speaker 4: the devices and particular types of software which we've talked

169
00:08:54,160 --> 00:09:00,840
Speaker 4: about before, intersect with mental health. So the fact that

170
00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:07,200
Speaker 4: these devices are explicitly designed to well, their aim is

171
00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,760
Speaker 4: not to cause mental health issues. It's a collateral damage.

172
00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,760
Speaker 4: Their aim is to addict you to the point where

173
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,560
Speaker 4: you can't look away from them. And you know, as

174
00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,760
Speaker 4: I've said sort of many many times, you can't expect

175
00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,400
Speaker 4: a teenage brain to win a willpower battle against a

176
00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:34,520
Speaker 4: supercomputer designed to exploit its deepest psychological vulnerabilities, which is

177
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,480
Speaker 4: exactly what it's what we're talking about here. You know,

178
00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,800
Speaker 4: the billions and billions of dollars are invested in making

179
00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:48,079
Speaker 4: sure you spend one second longer looking at Instagram than

180
00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,440
Speaker 4: you otherwise would. And you know, I've talked so many

181
00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,440
Speaker 4: times before about it's an insane business model where they're

182
00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,959
Speaker 4: spending billions and giving the product away for free.

183
00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,280
Speaker 3: That tells you one thing. It's not the product you

184
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:03,960
Speaker 3: are and.

185
00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,360
Speaker 4: Today in the United States or a few hours ago

186
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,920
Speaker 4: in the United States, yesterday in our time, a case

187
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:20,280
Speaker 4: called KGM against Meta and others was decided. And Meta

188
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:25,080
Speaker 4: in that title is the owner of Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp,

189
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:30,479
Speaker 4: so the software company run by one young mister Zuckerberg,

190
00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:39,080
Speaker 4: and the ed owl was Google, who was the so

191
00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:44,080
Speaker 4: it was Meta and Google. TikTok and Snapchat were also

192
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:49,360
Speaker 4: defendants in that case, but they settled out early so

193
00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,200
Speaker 4: they didn't end up in the headlines. The reason it's

194
00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,960
Speaker 4: remarkable is that it's the first time that someone has

195
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:06,280
Speaker 4: successfully sued a social media company and one damages for

196
00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:13,400
Speaker 4: purposeful addiction, so for mental health effects associated with being

197
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,120
Speaker 4: addicted to their products.

198
00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,280
Speaker 2: So that's that to me.

199
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but yeah, sorry to interrupt your monologue. So

200
00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:25,880
Speaker 1: how do you go for it now? I'm just saying.

201
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:30,040
Speaker 1: So it was a twenty year old woman and Meta

202
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,720
Speaker 1: and YouTube were found negligent in order to pay three

203
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,280
Speaker 1: million dollars in compensation compensatory damages.

204
00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,720
Speaker 4: It was actually twice that it was. It was three

205
00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,280
Speaker 4: million in compensatory which was just her losses for the

206
00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,640
Speaker 4: mental health effects, but also three million impunitive damages as well,

207
00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,320
Speaker 4: just to punish them for doing it on purpose. So

208
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,000
Speaker 4: it was six million, and the split was four point

209
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:58,280
Speaker 4: two million to Meta because of Facebook and Instagram, and

210
00:11:58,520 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 4: one point eight million to Google.

211
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,679
Speaker 1: So so in other words, they had paid that didn't

212
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:04,240
Speaker 1: go any.

213
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, they have to pay it out. They

214
00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:07,720
Speaker 3: have to pay now.

215
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,480
Speaker 1: Do you know do you know how? Like how did

216
00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,280
Speaker 1: they I don't know how deeper dives you did. But

217
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,160
Speaker 1: of course, like what what you're saying makes sense to

218
00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:19,600
Speaker 1: me and I'm sure all our listeners.

219
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,280
Speaker 2: Two things come to mind for me. One, how do

220
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,320
Speaker 2: they prove that categorically?

221
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 3: Now this is the interesting bit? Yeah, because yeah.

222
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,400
Speaker 1: My other one is fucking he fuck, look out batman.

223
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,280
Speaker 1: I mean, the doors are just going to swing open now.

224
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,120
Speaker 1: I'm like, how many people are going to be coming

225
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,320
Speaker 1: out of the woodwork going, Hey, I can't focus, I've

226
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,320
Speaker 1: got no concentration, I'm depressed.

227
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:48,160
Speaker 2: And it's all because of that. That seems like a minefield.

228
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,800
Speaker 4: So the case that broke the dam against the tobacco companies,

229
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:58,640
Speaker 4: So a lot of people in the early noughties and

230
00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:05,280
Speaker 4: late nineties suit tobacco companies over cigarettes causing cancer.

231
00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:08,680
Speaker 3: Most of them did not succeed.

232
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,680
Speaker 4: Most of them were unable to prove definitively that the

233
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,640
Speaker 4: given brand of cigarettes had definitively caused their cancer.

234
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,080
Speaker 1: So that's so interesting.

235
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,360
Speaker 4: They definitely had cancer, they definitely were smokers, but had

236
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,880
Speaker 4: they could you say for certain that that particular brand

237
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,880
Speaker 4: of cigarette had been the only cause. And the answer

238
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,000
Speaker 4: was in most cases no, you couldn't, So causation.

239
00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,360
Speaker 3: Let them down. Therefore negligence wasn't made and they lost

240
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:38,720
Speaker 3: the case.

241
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,280
Speaker 4: The one that broke the dam was a case where

242
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,640
Speaker 4: they could prove that the only brand of cigarettes this

243
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:51,960
Speaker 4: person had ever smoked was the defendants yes, and the

244
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,880
Speaker 4: science stacked up and said, well, this person smoked for

245
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,320
Speaker 4: X number of years they now have lung cancer. Here's

246
00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,080
Speaker 4: the science that says, if you smoke for X number

247
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 4: of years you get lung can answer, and this is

248
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:06,400
Speaker 4: the only product they ever smoked. So they're put the

249
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,880
Speaker 4: ducks in a row. Straight After that case succeeded, a

250
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,439
Speaker 4: whole bunch of other cases that have been waiting in

251
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:17,160
Speaker 4: the wings came forward, including state attorney generals in the

252
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,680
Speaker 4: United States who sued for the health costs of having

253
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,640
Speaker 4: to treat the people with lung cancer because of smoking,

254
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,000
Speaker 4: and that ended up in billions and billions of dollars

255
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 4: of settlements, which really really did massive harm to the

256
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,280
Speaker 4: tobacco industry from which it probably has never really recovered.

257
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:43,160
Speaker 4: This case is interesting because most cases were all cases

258
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,440
Speaker 4: up till now that have been brought against MATA and

259
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:53,760
Speaker 4: social media people have been defeated by a statute in

260
00:14:53,760 --> 00:15:00,080
Speaker 4: the United States that essentially gives a free pass to

261
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,440
Speaker 4: social media companies on the basis that they are not

262
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,840
Speaker 4: responsible for the content that gets posted.

263
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,160
Speaker 3: Okay, so so people.

264
00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,800
Speaker 4: Have said, you know, I suffered ill, ill health, et cetera,

265
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,840
Speaker 4: mental health because I saw images of you know, skinny

266
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:22,000
Speaker 4: women on this thing. You know, therefore it gave me anorexia,

267
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,480
Speaker 4: and therefore, you know, you're liable. There's a there's a

268
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:30,160
Speaker 4: provision in the United States law that says they are

269
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,960
Speaker 4: not responsible. They get a free pass. Now, a newspaper

270
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,440
Speaker 4: is responsible for what they post, but there's a free

271
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,600
Speaker 4: pass in the law in the United States for they

272
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,440
Speaker 4: can't help it if a user posts something that disturbs you.

273
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,800
Speaker 3: Okay.

274
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,080
Speaker 4: This case was different because the plaintiff in this case,

275
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:52,760
Speaker 4: their lawyers said, we're not concerned about the content. We're

276
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,360
Speaker 4: not saying you're liable for the content. We're saying you're

277
00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,760
Speaker 4: liable for the mechanism you use. So we're saying you're

278
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,960
Speaker 4: liable because you put a doom scroll in there, because

279
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,720
Speaker 4: of the algorithmic recommendations you put in there, because of

280
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,920
Speaker 4: the auto play on the movies that you put in

281
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,480
Speaker 4: there for in YouTube's case, because of the and in

282
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:20,840
Speaker 4: this case in particularly important because of the what do

283
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,520
Speaker 4: they call it, the image altering stuff that they put

284
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,320
Speaker 4: on Instagram, you know, to make you look prettier, et cetera.

285
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:29,359
Speaker 2: The filters.

286
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:34,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they and the applicant in this case was

287
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,640
Speaker 4: saying all that gave me anxiety, depression, body dysmorphere, and

288
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:42,360
Speaker 4: suicidal thoughts, and had medical evidence to back it up.

289
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 4: She'd been using these products since she was nine years old,

290
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,160
Speaker 4: could prove that she'd been using it since she was

291
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,880
Speaker 4: nine years old, and the claim was these things caused

292
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:58,120
Speaker 4: this stuff. Now you might think, okay, sure, but why

293
00:16:58,160 --> 00:16:59,480
Speaker 4: does that mean they.

294
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,920
Speaker 3: Lost the case? Well, because.

295
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:09,600
Speaker 4: It turns out there were documents, internal documents within Facebook

296
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,679
Speaker 4: that were leaked by a lady by the name of

297
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,600
Speaker 4: Francis Howgan back in twenty twenty one, she was a

298
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,480
Speaker 4: former product manager at Facebook and she released a cage

299
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,720
Speaker 4: of internal reports from Facebook and these are called the

300
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 4: Facebook Documents. So there was this whistleblower set of documents

301
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:35,000
Speaker 4: out there. Wow, and they showed that Facebook knew that

302
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:39,840
Speaker 4: their software could do this and made decisions that it

303
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 4: didn't matter so to be you know, just to give

304
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,360
Speaker 4: you some examples of this, there was one internal study

305
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,680
Speaker 4: in the Facebook papers titled teen Mental Health Deep Dive,

306
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,120
Speaker 4: which revealed that one in three teenage girls who already

307
00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,320
Speaker 4: felt bad about their bodies reported that Instagram made them

308
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:05,280
Speaker 4: feel worse. There was another study in there among US

309
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,880
Speaker 4: and New UK team survey to experience suicidal thoughts thirteen

310
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,080
Speaker 4: percent and six percent respectively. UK and US respectively trace

311
00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,680
Speaker 4: those thoughts back to their use of Instagram. There were

312
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,159
Speaker 4: internal research that showed on the question of dopamine loops,

313
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,560
Speaker 4: and we've talked about this before, how these things are

314
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:29,639
Speaker 4: engineered to produce dopamine spikes. The internal research showed that

315
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:35,359
Speaker 4: the platform's effects were identical to drugs and gambling, and

316
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:41,560
Speaker 4: one internal email famously stated Instagram is our drug. We're

317
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,159
Speaker 4: basically pushes, referring to how features like infinite scroll and

318
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,120
Speaker 4: AutoPlay were engineered to trigger dopamine hits.

319
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 1: I wonder who, in what context does somebody But then

320
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,160
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking, Okay, so Brian and Accounting wrote that too,

321
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,320
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily.

322
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,480
Speaker 2: A policy or I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure.

323
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure they're relatively secretly happy with all of these

324
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,680
Speaker 1: addictions because addiction for the user equals.

325
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:15,480
Speaker 2: Profit for the company.

326
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,120
Speaker 1: So I'm sure they're not genuinely upset, but they need

327
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,960
Speaker 1: to throw the PR card in and look upset and seem,

328
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:23,880
Speaker 1: you know whatever.

329
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,959
Speaker 4: But so that was put to Zuckerberg himself on the stand.

330
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,040
Speaker 4: He was called as a witness in this case, and

331
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,639
Speaker 4: he had a couple of things to say. You know,

332
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,680
Speaker 4: you could have been a counsel for the defense there

333
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,600
Speaker 4: with your your your arguments, like he said, he said, ah,

334
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,800
Speaker 4: when they gave him the study about one in three

335
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,080
Speaker 4: girls having worse body image issues, as Zuckerberg said, data

336
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 4: was taken out of context. Of course, he claimed the

337
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,879
Speaker 4: study actually showed that for the majority of teams that

338
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,400
Speaker 4: would be the two in three, the app was neutral,

339
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:05,879
Speaker 4: So you know, so get over it, basically, And he

340
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,680
Speaker 4: also attempted to shift responsibility to her parents. She didn't

341
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,879
Speaker 4: have a great family life. There was evidence of the

342
00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 4: mum screaming at her and generally being unpleasant towards her,

343
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,280
Speaker 4: and so he said, well, there you go. You know,

344
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 4: maybe that's what caused her anxiety and depression. And on

345
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,640
Speaker 4: the question about the features like infinite scroll, auto looping,

346
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 4: all that kind of stuff, he said, yeah, but everybody

347
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,479
Speaker 4: does that. That's just a standard image. That's a standard

348
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 4: industry feature. You know, we're not the only people who

349
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 4: do that. Everybody does that. But there was a smoking gun,

350
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,560
Speaker 4: and he really didn't do well with this one. There

351
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:56,680
Speaker 4: was an email from Zuckerberg in twenty nineteen which appeared

352
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,960
Speaker 4: to dismiss a proposal to limit the beauty fying filters

353
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 4: that were in Instagram, which the research, his own internal

354
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 4: research had linked to body dysmorphia, which was the thing

355
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 4: this woman was suing him over, because it might hurt

356
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,919
Speaker 4: user engagement metrics. So he's got the research that says

357
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,679
Speaker 4: perhaps we shouldn't do this because there's evidence that this

358
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 4: could harm our users. And his response is, yeah, but

359
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 4: what about the user engagement metrics? Like his profits over

360
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 4: people every day of the week.

361
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 1: But could we not say the same for Booze? Could

362
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 1: we not say that we need it? Absolutely, there's plenty

363
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 1: of Jack Daniels and VB. I don't know, I don't

364
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 1: drink what they've happened. Anyway, It's like, and I'm not

365
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,160
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to play the defense, but I think, well,

366
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:58,360
Speaker 1: if I'm thinking this, okay, well, if this causes that,

367
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 1: then why is not everybody that Like why does it

368
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 1: not affect the majority the way that it affected? Yes,

369
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 1: and I know it's a pretty big minority, but like,

370
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 1: how do we get past correlation to causation? You know,

371
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 1: knowing that so many people didn't have that issue but

372
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: this woman did.

373
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:20,120
Speaker 3: Well.

374
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 4: Part of it is the population level statistics. So you

375
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 4: see stats like anxiety ADHD and depression quadrupling in the

376
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 4: last six years. You see these kinds of things are

377
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 4: off the scale, unusual. This is not a case of saying, well,

378
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 4: you know, you say we cause all these things, but

379
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 4: where's the evidence. There's no one has actually got any

380
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 4: anxiety or body dysmorphia or depression or ADHD. You know,

381
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 4: So I don't know where you're coming from.

382
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 3: And that would be a good argument. It would be

383
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 3: a good argument to.

384
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 4: Say, well, you know, anxiety was that five percent of

385
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 4: the population ten years ago, and it's a four and

386
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 4: a half percent now, So what are you saying exactly

387
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 4: we did. Yes, you know, maybe this girl's particularly you know,

388
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 4: you know, likely for this to occur for or maybe

389
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 4: there's other things going on in her life, whatever it is.

390
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,719
Speaker 4: But what they were able to do, what they were

391
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,880
Speaker 4: able to do here was linked the specific things that

392
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 4: she says and the medical evidence said had caused her

393
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 4: medical issues with features of the software, and evidence internally

394
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 4: in the company that showed they were aware of that,

395
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 4: not in her case, but in general and decided, notwithstanding that,

396
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 4: to prioritize profits over people. And they had other evidence

397
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 4: internal in the company that showed this was a very

398
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 4: intentional thing that they were doing, that addiction was by design,

399
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 4: because the only way they make money is by increasing engagement.

400
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 4: I mean, in YouTube's case, there was evidence in the

401
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 4: case that showed that they purposefully kept kids on the

402
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 4: adult platform rather than moving them to the kids version

403
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 4: of YouTube, because the advertising paid better on the adults platform.

404
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 2: Of course, Yeah, I mean it's like, I mean, I

405
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 2: think the mistake that people make This is just an opinion,

406
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 2: is that we talk about companies and you and I

407
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 2: have spoken about this before, but as though they have

408
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 2: a soul and they care about humans, they fucking don't

409
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 2: you know if a soul, if a company or these

410
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 2: big companies were people, that'd be a bunch of sociopaths, right, yep,

411
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: because all they're interested in is is profit and ROI

412
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 2: and blah blah blah.

413
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 4: Well, and that's by design. We explicitly design companies that way.

414
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 4: A company's board has a responsibility to the shareholders, not

415
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 4: to the customers.

416
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: Yes, and we anthropomorphized companies by thinking that they're human

417
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: or that they are feelings or emotions or they should care.

418
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: And in an ideal world that is nice, but that

419
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 1: isn't the world we live in.

420
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 4: And yeah, if I were to restate that as a human,

421
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 4: if I were to say, right, your rules of life, right,

422
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 4: that you must prioritize making money over any effect it

423
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 4: has on anybody.

424
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: Else, Yes, yes, yes, And by the way, I know

425
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: humans who do that.

426
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 3: Are we quite spats.

427
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 2: I may have interviewed one or two or three.

428
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: I may have spoken at organizations where I met the

429
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: boss and I went, oh fuck, we're now wonder you

430
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: guys are all in trouble. He's a fucking monster or

431
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: she's a monster, whatever the case. So has Zuckerberg come

432
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: out since this I would sprand you So I suspect

433
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: he hasn't responded in any way.

434
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 3: No, they said they're going to appeal. Of course, Yeah,

435
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 3: they have to appeal.

436
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 4: I mean the six million dollars is a rounding error,

437
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 4: all right, it's these companies make billions of dollars a

438
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 4: month for six million dollars.

439
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 3: Neither he nor there, but.

440
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 4: There are sixteen hundred lawsuits against them in California alone

441
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 4: with this kind of basis.

442
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 3: Sitting there waiting to go.

443
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 4: And that's before we even look at other states, other legislatures,

444
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 4: district attorneys looking at things, or attorneys general looking at

445
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 4: hang on, we're paying a lot for our health system

446
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 4: for mental health. Should these guys be picking up the tab?

447
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 4: So this could be potentially massive, So they have to

448
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 4: appeal this.

449
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, So they've just thrown a stick of dynamite into

450
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 1: a warehouse of dynamite.

451
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, right.

452
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 1: Now, there's just one piece or one stick of dynamite,

453
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 1: that's the problem. But there's a warehouse full of that

454
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: shit's going to catch fire and explode, and they must.

455
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: I don't know would they be worried about their viability

456
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: moving forward. I know they're rich, I know he's rich.

457
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 1: I know they dominate, but then I look. But at

458
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 1: the same time, I think the majority of people would

459
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: not like Facebook to go away. Maybe I'm wrong in that,

460
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: but I know. I mean, I would say nearly everyone

461
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: I know uses Facebook, and I know it's for older people,

462
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: but nearly everyone I know is on Instagram or TikTok

463
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 1: or so I don't think people want it to go away.

464
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 4: I don't think going away is the likely outcome if

465
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 4: they were to lose the appeal. I think what a

466
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 4: court would order them to do is to change the

467
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 4: features that have been shown to be addictive, so the

468
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 4: like the end of the auto play, the doom scroll.

469
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,239
Speaker 4: In other words, have Facebook be pretty much what it

470
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 4: was like in about two thousand and eight, before all

471
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 4: the addictive feat which were built into it.

472
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 3: Now. Does it make it less attractive? Absolutely, it makes

473
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: less attractive.

474
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 4: Does it mean that it's going to be less of

475
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 4: something that is part of society? Probably it'll probably go

476
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 4: the way of pinterest, you know, you've you've no doubt

477
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 4: still got your Pinterest page there, Craig.

478
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:19,479
Speaker 1: But yeah, just check it out.

479
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 4: Everyone probably been having declining traffic because it doesn't have

480
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 4: any of this stuff, right, it's actually just MySpace.

481
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: Have you said my MySpace page?

482
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: Sorry for the interrupt go.

483
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 4: But Pinterest actually still exists, whereas my Space doesn't. Pinterest

484
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 4: does exist, And yeah, but they're not addictive. People like

485
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 4: using it. They share their photos, but they're not having

486
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 4: any massive growth. They're not making billions a second out

487
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 4: of anybody. They're just a useful app and that might

488
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 4: be the future for these guys too.

489
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: Is how do they arrive at six million bucks? How

490
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: do they?

491
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: I mean, is there some kind of algorithm the jury just.

492
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: Go, yeah, that's that feels.

493
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: What do you reckon, Brian? I'm not sure. Donate you

494
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: six anyone?

495
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 3: Six? Seven? Six?

496
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: Okay? Six? Well that's that's it.

497
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: Wow, So I guess stay tuned.

498
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: Is the thing?

499
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 4: Look, I think it's the reason I want to talk

500
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 4: about it today is this is this is a moment

501
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 4: in history, This this thing, and now it is only

502
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 4: going to get smashed or it isn't on a peel,

503
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 4: but it is a very very different outcome from the

504
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 4: ones we've had so far, and it could be a

505
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 4: watershed moment.

506
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: You wrote one of the questions was how did Meta

507
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: defend itself in court? And you wrote by gas lighting

508
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: the victim. Just unpacked that a little bit.

509
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, so.

510
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 4: That was a reference to what Zuckerberg said when he

511
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 4: was asked about the evidence, where he basically said it

512
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 4: was probably the parents.

513
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, parents probably did this to you, wasn't us?

514
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 4: Just because you'd like to get on on your on

515
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 4: your Facebook and on your Instagram And oh, by the way,

516
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 4: what the hell were you doing on it at nine

517
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 4: years of age? Our terms of use clearly, so you

518
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 4: shouldn't be you know, you shouldn't be using it if

519
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 4: you're under thirteen. So another issue for the parents.

520
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: Hm, I find even on uh, you know, AI Chat,

521
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: J Petti, claud et cetera. You know, I'll ask it

522
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: a question and you know it might be just like

523
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: I asked a question today, which is I thought interesting

524
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: because I met somebody earlier and like, what do you do?

525
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: It's just when I was getting my coffee, she was

526
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: asking me stuff she follows men, and I.

527
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 3: Got what you trying to figure out?

528
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: Really not really she had a kid in toe, so

529
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: I think not. He was twenty six. It is like,

530
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: I go, oh, what do you do? She's like, oh,

531
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: I'm a psychotherapist. And I was kind of in a hurry,

532
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: and I really wanted to open that door. I'm like,

533
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: I'm thinking because I know that's not a very it's

534
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: used in Australia, but it's more an American term. And

535
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: I just asked Chatters, what qualifications does somebody need to

536
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: work as a psychotherapist? And the short answer is none, right, none,

537
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: So you don't need a qualification. But at the same time,

538
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: it's not saying that's a good thing. But then it's

539
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: like you asked the question, you get the response and

540
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: it goes, hey, Craig, if you'd like to know da

541
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: da da da da, And I'm go, oh, that's you know,

542
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: that's actually a good question to answer that, And it's like,

543
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,239
Speaker 1: and now what I could like it's constantly upselling you

544
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: to the next part of the story that it wants

545
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: to keep you.

546
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: It's constantly trying to keep.

547
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: Me engaged, to keep asking more questions or to hey,

548
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: if you like, I could turn that into a real

549
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: for you for Instagram or I could give you the

550
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: snapshot of this in you know, fifty words, would you

551
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: like that? Or I could make this insta ready or

552
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: all of these. You know, it just constantly is trying

553
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: to keep you.

554
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 4: It's part of the design now. Like I don't know

555
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 4: if you remember back in the olden days in twenty

556
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 4: twenty four, when these things started coming out, they didn't

557
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 4: do that at all. So their only engagement metric was

558
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 4: so they were engineered to engage. They realized right from

559
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 4: the start that the only way to make this product

560
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 4: work for free, and most people who use them do

561
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 4: use it for free, was to make it nice. So

562
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 4: that's why when you say is it a good idea

563
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 4: to microwaves a cat, it says, oh, great thinking, but

564
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 4: you probably should skin it first. You know, the kind

565
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 4: of thing it'll never ever say, are you crazy?

566
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 3: It's engineer to be positive.

567
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 4: It's the most positive engagement you'll have in a day, generally,

568
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 4: because everything that comes out of your mouth is unbelievably

569
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 4: insightful and brilliant as far as it's concerned.

570
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: Well, that is why it is my best friend and

571
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: only friend.

572
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: But carry on, Yeah, but they have to do more

573
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: than that.

574
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 4: So the next step of the engagement metric is after

575
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 4: it tells you you're wonderful and gives you an answer

576
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 4: to do what you've noticed it doing. So now you

577
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 4: cannot ask an AI a question and not have it say, oh,

578
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 4: what about we do this? Or would you like to

579
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 4: know a little bit more about that. The idea is

580
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 4: that it keeps you engaged. And by the way, I

581
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 4: don't know if you've realized it or not, but when

582
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 4: it says that, you know, well, what about we do this,

583
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 4: you can just yes, that's why you have to type,

584
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 4: and it'll go ahead, do it so, and then it

585
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 4: will give you another answer, and at the end of

586
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 4: that answer, it'll say, oh, what about we do this?

587
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 4: Or while I thinking about that, how about I go.

588
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 3: And do this?

589
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 4: And it'll keep doing that forever, for as long as

590
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,959
Speaker 4: you're prepared to stay engaged with it, it'll keep doing

591
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 4: it because what it's trying to do. And this is

592
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 4: the Facebook model. This is a model that Facebook taught

593
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 4: us is build engagement first. Capture the island first. Get

594
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 4: as many people using this as a routine as part

595
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 4: of their daily habits, Get them on all the time,

596
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 4: get as many build as many minutes as you possibly

597
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 4: can then start selling ads. So that's when we're going

598
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 4: to get hit with ads. So there's actually quite a

599
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 4: I don't know where I saw it, might have been

600
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 4: Saurday Night Live or whatever, where it was an engagement

601
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 4: between a guy and his therapist and there, you know,

602
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 4: he's saying that sort of thing and she says, oh,

603
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 4: we should talk about and we talk about that, and

604
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 4: then he says, oh, yeah, but I really don't like

605
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 4: my wife, and he said, well, maybe we should kill her.

606
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 4: You know, you know I could get you a good

607
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 4: supply of poison, would you like me to do that?

608
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 4: And the reason for it was what they were trying

609
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 4: to show was when you use AI as a therapist

610
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 4: that has to sell AD space, that's where we're going.

611
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: Yes, well, also I might fuck this up, correct me

612
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. But the Canadian teenager who committed suicide,

613
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 1: you know, being guided by I think it was chat

614
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: GPT And one of the questions he asked was should

615
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: I tell my parents then? Like no, no, they won't understand.

616
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: Allegedly this is what was, you know, like so it

617
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: kind of guided him towards how to do this, which

618
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 1: seems a dumb strategy because once he's not around anymore,

619
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: he can't use it. But yeah, I think it's it's

620
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: somewhat terrifying because I've got a strange question for you

621
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: if you were and I know you wouldn't do this

622
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 1: because I know your values and principles, But if in

623
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: some hypothetical reality you were.

624
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: All team matter.

625
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: You're the lawyer, yep, you're the only lawyer on this call,

626
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: but in some alternate dark reality that was your job,

627
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: what would you be doing to try to keep Meta

628
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: afloat or avoid any kind of actual payout for as

629
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: long as what would your strategy be?

630
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 4: I don't think they care about the payout. What they

631
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 4: care about is the president. They would want whatever decision,

632
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 4: even if the decision resulted in money changing hands, I

633
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 4: don't think they'd care. What they don't want is a

634
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 4: decision that says that a bottomless scroll is a mechanism

635
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 4: of addiction. And that's what they don't want because as

636
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 4: soon as there's that liability hook, then Attorney's general Hospital

637
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 4: towards you name it, they're all going to go after that.

638
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 4: And so what they don't want is a finding of that.

639
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 4: That's what they've got at the moment, they've gotten that

640
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 4: finding against them, and that's what they need corrected. They

641
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 4: don't care about the six million dollars. They do care

642
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 4: about the finding the particular features of their product were

643
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 4: explicitly engineered to addict people, which of course they were.

644
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 4: But now a court has agreed with that proposition.

645
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: So I know you're not an American lawyer, but you'll

646
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 1: have way more knowledge than myself and most of the listeners,

647
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: I would imagine on this particular question. How does it

648
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: work now practically? Okay, so they've appealed it, Like what's

649
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: the likely or possible series of events to happen from now?

650
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: And maybe what's the timeline. I know that's crystal balling,

651
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: but I mean, is this going to be all done

652
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: and dusted in twelve months or would this go on

653
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: for five years?

654
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,040
Speaker 4: Oh? No, it could go for quite some time. I

655
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 4: mean they'll first of all have to go to so

656
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 4: in the US system, they have things called post trial

657
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 4: motions right where where they'll come back to the judge

658
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 4: and say, oh, evidence didn't match the finding, etc.

659
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 3: I need you to overturn it.

660
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 4: Those damages are completely insane. You know, we need those

661
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 4: reduced all that sort of thing. I don't think, like

662
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 4: I said, I don't think I worry too much about

663
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 4: the damages. I think what they'll be asking for is

664
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,879
Speaker 4: an overturning from the judge. That might not work, because

665
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 4: you've got to remember it's the judge that's essentially made

666
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 4: the ruling in the first place. Next step is the

667
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 4: California Court of Appeal. So this is a California case,

668
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 4: So it goes up to there, then it goes to

669
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 4: the California Supreme Court, and then if leave is granted,

670
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 4: to the US Supreme Court. So the US Supreme Court

671
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 4: doesn't necessarily have to take it on, but it can

672
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 4: and probably would, given the implications of this. So there's

673
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 4: a few stages that we're yet to get to. I

674
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 4: suspect we will see this in the Supreme Court at

675
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 4: some point, and it will be really interesting how that

676
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 4: ends up, because there's also a zeitgeist here, you know,

677
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 4: as my publisher has correctly predicted, that people are really

678
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,959
Speaker 4: starting to worry about this for good reason, because people

679
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 4: are starting to see this in their homes every day now,

680
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 4: and so by the time it gets to the Supreme Court,

681
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 4: there may well be an overwhelming public perception and a

682
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 4: lot of jurisdictions that have already acted by bringing in

683
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 4: age limits for you know, like Australia has bringing in

684
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 4: age limits for use of these things and that kind

685
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 4: of thing. So by the time it gets to the

686
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 4: Supreme Court, there may well be a general public feeling that, yeah,

687
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 4: they've got to stop this stuff.

688
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 3: This is addictive, it's designed to be addictive. It's got

689
00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 3: to be pulled.

690
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: Looking through the sociopathic lens once again, are there any organizers,

691
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: Are any organizations or groups that will benefit from this

692
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: or suffer because of this? So maybe not a sociopathic lens,

693
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: but like there are the other organizations that are going

694
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: to be desperately hoping this goes away in the way

695
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: that favors.

696
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 2: Zuckerberg l or conversely, are.

697
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: There going to be apart from the individuals who are

698
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: being affected, are there going to be other groups or

699
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: organizations who benefit from this happening to Facebook?

700
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 4: Not really because to me, I mean, in a way,

701
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 4: Zuckerberg was right when he said everybody does this.

702
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 3: He was right.

703
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 4: This particular defendant though, wasn't claiming everybody. It wasn't making

704
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 4: claims against everybody. She was going against very specific people

705
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 4: that she could prove how she'd been new since she

706
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 4: was nine years old. I mean, the ones that will

707
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 4: care the most are the ones that settled out TikTok

708
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 4: and whatever the other one was snapped out or whatever

709
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 4: it was, that they're going to care a lot about

710
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 4: what happens here. All their competitors are going to care too,

711
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 4: Not that there's a lot of competitors left, but anyone

712
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 4: using those types of features, if this is found to

713
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 4: hold up that yes those features are addictive, Yes you

714
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 4: knew it, and yes you have caused harm from doing it.

715
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 4: So it's exactly the same as tobacco.

716
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:34,439
Speaker 3: There.

717
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 4: The feature of this thing is it gives you cancer.

718
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 4: You knew it gave people cancer, You hid that and

719
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 4: you kept selling it. And that's the same argument that's

720
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 4: happening here. There are documents that show you knew this

721
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 4: happened and you didn't care, and that is going to

722
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 4: be a problem if that gets all the way through

723
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:55,879
Speaker 4: the Supreme Court.

724
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 3: It's a problem now honestly for them.

725
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously, why were Snapchat and TikTok have settled, like

726
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: what would be Why was that decision made for them

727
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: when for starters.

728
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 4: They're not in the headlines. Right, So if you go

729
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 4: and read the New York Times or whatever today, front

730
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 4: page of the New York Times today this story, so

731
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 4: it's a big deal, they're not being mentioned other than

732
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 4: as it may be is a throwaway line at the

733
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 4: end of the article. Oh, there were these other companies

734
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 4: involved and they settled out early, so they're not in

735
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 4: the headlines. Okay, right, Meta is in the headlines. Google

736
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 4: is in the headlines. So that's an incentive to get

737
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 4: out of this quick. Maybe they had advice that, you

738
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 4: know what, there's something in this you don't want to

739
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 4: be on the receiving end of this decision because you

740
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 4: don't want this decision to be about you.

741
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: I struggle a little bit with the idea that, yeah,

742
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: I know, but I'm thinking it's like, it's obviously I'm

743
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: not a fan of cigarettes or booze, but cigarettes and

744
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,959
Speaker 1: boos and gambling in Australia and like so many things

745
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: that we can become addicted to when a lot of

746
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: people gamble, but they're not addicts. A lot of people drink,

747
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: they're not addicts. I would say, it's you sorry that

748
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: you know of Yeah, well, correct, but I mean my

749
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: mum and mum and dad have been drinking since I

750
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: was five. They're not addicts. They have a glass of

751
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 1: wine a night, but you know, and if they don't,

752
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: life doesn't end.

753
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 4: But yeah, there are instruments that about twenty five percent

754
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 4: of the population are addicted to our.

755
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: M you're saying my mum and dad are peerspots. Is

756
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 2: that what you're saying.

757
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 4: I'm saying that they're in the other seventy five percent.

758
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 4: Almost all the population does drink, yes, perhaps the exception

759
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 4: of your good self, but only a quarter of them

760
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 4: are addicts.

761
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: M I like this thing that you wrote, basically the

762
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: wrap up or maybe just a parting thought. You cannot

763
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: expect to developing teenage brain to win a willpower battle

764
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: against a supercomputed design to exploit its deepest psychological vulnerabilities.

765
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 4: That's nice, it's true, right, yeah, and wait till it's

766
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 4: an AI doing it. Yeah right, wait till it's an

767
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 4: AI that knows you. And believe me, every time you

768
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 4: use an AI, you are teaching it more about you.

769
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 3: Always a fine exercise.

770
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 4: Go into the AI and ask it what it knows

771
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 4: about you, and when it gives you some flipant answer

772
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 4: about oh you're a radio show host, et cetera, et cetera.

773
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 4: Ask it to drill in deeper, say no, no, no,

774
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 4: I want to know everything you know about me.

775
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 3: You'll be surprised what it knows.

776
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: Well, that's fucking terrifying. Well that is an interesting insight

777
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: and interesting chat. It's on substack everybody. The article is

778
00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: called Tech's Big Tobacco Moment has arrived. David Gillespie's the author,

779
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: of course, his book, which he doesn't like the title

780
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 1: of I didn't write down, so he's going to tell

781
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: us again.

782
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 3: It's the Attention Recovery Plan.

783
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to say, a shit title, good book. I

784
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 1: had the same challenge with Penguin with I wrote a

785
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: book which you're not going to be surprised by the title,

786
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: which was called stop Fucking Around. Right, there's just thirty ideas,

787
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: thirty principles about how to get out of stagnation and

788
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: into you know, some kind of momentum and creating improvement

789
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: and change and all those fucking motivational things.

790
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 2: And for a book that was self published, it went.

791
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: Crazy like it sold a lot, and there was no

792
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: pr campaign, there was no it just it sold in

793
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: the tens of thousands, which is almost unheard of for

794
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 1: a self published book in Australia anyway, So Penguin approached me,

795
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: which is rare for you know, I'd done other books,

796
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: but it's usually we authors approached the published.

797
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 2: Anyway, they approached me.

798
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 1: They went, we got a hold of that book.

799
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 2: We love that book.

800
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: It's great, and they knew that I'd sold a lot

801
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,439
Speaker 1: of it, and we want you to do I don't

802
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: know if I've told you this story, if I've apologized,

803
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: but we want you to do a bigger version of that, right,

804
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: So I did a bigger version of that, and I

805
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 1: essentially wrote it in six months. I wrote about eight

806
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,760
Speaker 1: hours a day of six months, created a process, stuck

807
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: to the process because they wanted it by a certain

808
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: date to put it out for Christmas, and it was

809
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: I think like November or early December.

810
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 2: It got published.

811
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: And we hadn't really even talked about title, which is

812
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 1: dumb or not in any great length. And I don't

813
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: know why it worked out this way. I didn't know

814
00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: months ahead anyway, I went to Penguin in South Bank

815
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 1: I think it is here in Melbourne, went into their

816
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: offices and we had the boardroom and there's all these

817
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: people who'd worked on the book, and you know, graphic

818
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: designers and creatives, and they didn't really edit much of

819
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: what I've written, which was nice. They liked it.

820
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 2: I'm sure they polished up a few bits and pieces.

821
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 1: And they had they had the book or that like

822
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: an a an a frame of the book cover with

823
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: a like a sheet over it, and everyone's sitting around

824
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: the table. They knew the name of the book except me,

825
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: and then they pull off this black sheet to reveal

826
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: the cover, the design and the name of the new book.

827
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: And the name of the new book is called pull

828
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: your Finger Out. And I'm like, I fucking hate it.

829
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: And everyone everyone in the room's like, cause you don't

830
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: say that, you just go, that's.

831
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 2: Amazing, thank you so much.

832
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: I hated it. And I said, ah, they're what do

833
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: you think. I go, I hate it, honestly, I do

834
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: not like that title. They're like, ah, we've tested positively,

835
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: and I go, I go, I know you guys are

836
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 1: the book guys, but that ain't going to sell. And

837
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: I did, like you, I did all this media stuff

838
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: and did the rounds, and that book is a much

839
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: better book. Than stop fucking around, like much better. It's

840
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 1: like eighty thousand words versus like twenty thousand. The first

841
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: tie was a little book much better, much better written,

842
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: better content, more content, and it was it didn't do

843
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 1: a quarter of the sales of the little one that

844
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: I did, and it's yeah, they were perplexed. They thought

845
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 1: it would go nuts. I'm like, it's the worst title ever.

846
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: And they wrote on the bottom which really annoyed me,

847
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 1: which they sorry Penguin, it's a fair while now though,

848
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: but they wrote it at the bottom, which I would

849
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: never say about myself, Australia's number one life renovator. I'm like,

850
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: that's the worst fucking because I ran a workshop back

851
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: then called Renovate your Life and they must have found

852
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: that somewhere and then given me that label and then

853
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 1: I do telling and that go welcome Australia's number one

854
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: life for renovator.

855
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 2: And I wanted to go on and go I'm not.

856
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm just not.

857
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: That's bullshit. I'm not even the best at what I

858
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,439
Speaker 1: do in the country. Like, I'm not the best. I'm

859
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 1: just a bloke. I wrote a book and I'm not

860
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: the best author. I'm not the smartest guy, and I

861
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 1: just wanted to kind of just squash all that expectation.

862
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 2: And yeah, so I'll think a million.

863
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 3: Well, I think they're living in expectations of that title.

864
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,479
Speaker 3: But hey, you know, focus groups, et cetera.

865
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,800
Speaker 4: I guess the point of it is getting past the title,

866
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 4: which I agree is not great terrible. Is you can

867
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 4: wait a decade for the US Supreme Court to make

868
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 4: a decision about this, or you can accept except the

869
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 4: reality that this stuff is designed to hurt you and

870
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 4: do something about it. So this book is about but

871
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 4: doing something about it. Not getting out and you know,

872
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 4: protesting outside METAS headquarters, but doing something for yourself, recognizing

873
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 4: how they manipulating your brain, and having strategies to avoid it.

874
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: I I'm going to push back a little bit. I

875
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 1: don't think it's designed to hurt people. I think it

876
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 1: hurts people. I think it's design designed to make lots

877
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 1: of dough and one of the consequences is people being hurt.

878
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 1: And they're absolutely Yeah.

879
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 4: Just like cigarettes, cigarettes weren't designed to give people cancer.

880
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's just an unfortunate side effect.

881
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 4: And their design, Yeah, the primary design was to make money,

882
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 4: and the same goes for this.

883
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: Was it you that was telling me about that shitty

884
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: car in the States that the fuel cells or the

885
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: few the gas tanks blew up? Was it you tell

886
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: me that?

887
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 3: It wasn't me?

888
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 2: So it was called Oh so it was a little

889
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: shit I'll remember, No, I won't a little two doory

890
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 2: like shap or something ugly thing in the seventies and eighties,

891
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,919
Speaker 2: and they realized that a percentage, a very small percentage,

892
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 2: that the fuel tank and whatever bits and pieces had

893
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 2: a floor. So and there was about eight or ten

894
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: of them killing people per year, like it would blow

895
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 2: up and kill the occupants or the drive right, And

896
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 2: so they basically did a cost benefit analysis and went,

897
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 2: it will cost us way more to do a recall

898
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 2: on all of these cars and make all the changes

899
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 2: we need to make to make it totally safe. So

900
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 2: they just went let it ride, and they.

901
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: Just paid out whatever they had to pay out for

902
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: the ten cases a year. But they knew it was

903
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,359
Speaker 1: going to happen. They just factored it in and went, well,

904
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: it's cheaper this way, and so that's what I did.

905
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 3: That's what happens when you it.

906
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 2: It's called a Ford pinto.

907
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 4: Right, Yes, well you know when you buy design, create

908
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 4: an entity who's concern is profits over people.

909
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 3: That's what you get, profits over people, exactly.

910
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: Mate. It's always good to chat with you. I look

911
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: forward to our next one. We may go back to

912
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: the artificial suite.

913
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you did all that research you know I did.

914
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: I mean I spent minutes just showing and just just

915
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: glossing over your words. We'll say goodbye off here, but

916
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: as always appreciate you. Thanks mate, see you