1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,389 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,390 --> 00:00:09,840 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Small business in Australia has had a tough few 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,779 Sean Aylmer: years and it's not getting any easier. Those businesses that 4 00:00:12,780 --> 00:00:16,079 Sean Aylmer: survived the pandemic are now being hit by inflation, rising 5 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,860 Sean Aylmer: interest rates, staff and schools shortages and ongoing supply chain 6 00:00:19,860 --> 00:00:23,580 Sean Aylmer: problems. Bruce Billson spent two decades as a federal MP, 7 00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:27,479 Sean Aylmer: holding a number of ministerial positions, including Minister for Small 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,540 Sean Aylmer: Business. Post- politics, his knowledge and passion for the sector 9 00:00:30,780 --> 00:00:34,290 Sean Aylmer: saw him become the Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman. 10 00:00:34,619 --> 00:00:36,209 Sean Aylmer: Bruce Billson, welcome to Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:36,270 --> 00:00:38,850 Bruce Billson: Sean. Awesome to be with you and the Fearsters and the Greedsters. 12 00:00:41,100 --> 00:00:42,571 Sean Aylmer: Now, Bruce, I want to know. 13 00:00:42,571 --> 00:00:42,631 Bruce Billson: Yeah? 14 00:00:43,140 --> 00:00:44,880 Sean Aylmer: You didn't have to move back to Canberra, but it 15 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:46,559 Sean Aylmer: sounds like you did move back to (inaudible) . You 16 00:00:46,559 --> 00:00:48,269 Sean Aylmer: got out, but you've come back. 17 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,098 Bruce Billson: 20 years in public life. Seven terms, thankfully undefeated in 18 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:56,490 Bruce Billson: my electorate of Dunkley, which was down on the Mornington 19 00:00:56,490 --> 00:00:59,730 Bruce Billson: Peninsula or in Frankston, or as I would call it, Melbourne's riviera, 20 00:00:59,730 --> 00:01:02,760 Bruce Billson: Sean. Got out of that to spend more quality time 21 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,268 Bruce Billson: with the family, because it's quite a punishing lifestyle. And 22 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:09,840 Bruce Billson: we're the volunteers, but your family are the conscripts and 23 00:01:10,740 --> 00:01:13,350 Bruce Billson: looking for a little more time with me. And so, that was 24 00:01:13,350 --> 00:01:16,229 Bruce Billson: great. Went out and set up a few businesses, got 25 00:01:16,530 --> 00:01:20,219 Bruce Billson: heavily involved with a couple, in particular. Judo Bank and 26 00:01:20,220 --> 00:01:22,589 Bruce Billson: a few others, just to help improve a lot of 27 00:01:22,590 --> 00:01:25,319 Bruce Billson: small businesses. And then was asked to take on this 28 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,949 Bruce Billson: role, which ironically was one of the initiatives of mine 29 00:01:28,949 --> 00:01:32,459 Bruce Billson: when I was the cabinet minister. So, I understand deeply 30 00:01:32,459 --> 00:01:36,720 Bruce Billson: what its objectives are and what it's about. And I thought about trying to 31 00:01:36,780 --> 00:01:41,039 Bruce Billson: meet those ambitions commuting from Melbourne. Well, let's just say 32 00:01:41,039 --> 00:01:43,110 Bruce Billson: Sean, that didn't go down well with the family. So, 33 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,260 Bruce Billson: new chapter. We decided we'd go and move near the 34 00:01:46,260 --> 00:01:50,670 Bruce Billson: capital and we're building a house out at Murrumbateman, the country 35 00:01:50,670 --> 00:01:54,059 Bruce Billson: wine growing (inaudible) . Yeah. So, yeah. It takes me back 36 00:01:54,060 --> 00:01:57,509 Bruce Billson: there as now a near resident rather than a regular visitor. 37 00:01:58,230 --> 00:02:01,529 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So, what exactly does the Ombudsman for small business do? 38 00:02:02,070 --> 00:02:05,189 Bruce Billson: Look, great question. And it was born out of firsthand 39 00:02:05,190 --> 00:02:08,430 Bruce Billson: observation about where I thought there was some gaps in 40 00:02:08,430 --> 00:02:11,578 Bruce Billson: the way the Commonwealth, the federal government did its business. 41 00:02:11,910 --> 00:02:14,429 Bruce Billson: It became pretty obvious to me that a lot of 42 00:02:14,429 --> 00:02:19,230 Bruce Billson: government portfolios, departments and agencies do things in the name 43 00:02:19,230 --> 00:02:22,619 Bruce Billson: of, or do things to, small ans family business, without a 44 00:02:22,709 --> 00:02:26,070 Bruce Billson: really deep understanding of what that means. And really without 45 00:02:26,070 --> 00:02:29,130 Bruce Billson: grasping the simple fact that a small business isn't a shrink- 46 00:02:29,130 --> 00:02:31,980 Bruce Billson: wrapped version of a big one. You don't have a 47 00:02:31,980 --> 00:02:35,519 Bruce Billson: slightly smaller HR department. There isn't a smaller team of 48 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,839 Bruce Billson: compliance people running around. It's often one person doing everything. 49 00:02:39,839 --> 00:02:43,230 Bruce Billson: And I wanted to make sure that was reflected, but 50 00:02:43,230 --> 00:02:47,400 Bruce Billson: also a chance for independent advocacy, where someone could see 51 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,169 Bruce Billson: what was going on in the life of small- and- 52 00:02:49,169 --> 00:02:53,609 Bruce Billson: family businesses and fearlessly raise those issues or challenges with 53 00:02:53,610 --> 00:02:56,849 Bruce Billson: the government or regulators of the day. And that meant 54 00:02:57,270 --> 00:03:00,540 Bruce Billson: a policy and advocacy role, Sean. Trying to bring a 55 00:03:00,540 --> 00:03:03,240 Bruce Billson: spotlight on the actual plight of small business, as well 56 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,780 Bruce Billson: as raising where things could be done better. But also 57 00:03:06,780 --> 00:03:10,440 Bruce Billson: an important assistance function. In the federal jurisdiction, Sean ... I'm 58 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,139 Bruce Billson: sure the fear- and- greed audience would know, if you 59 00:03:13,139 --> 00:03:15,630 Bruce Billson: get into a legal (inaudible) that's covered by federal 60 00:03:15,630 --> 00:03:18,929 Bruce Billson: law, you're off to the federal court in most cases. 61 00:03:18,930 --> 00:03:22,290 Bruce Billson: Now, that's 300,000 bucks and may take three years for 62 00:03:22,290 --> 00:03:25,048 Bruce Billson: you to get your day in court. No small business 63 00:03:25,110 --> 00:03:27,809 Bruce Billson: can cope with that. And so, I wanted some way 64 00:03:27,809 --> 00:03:31,889 Bruce Billson: of resolving disputes quickly, in an amicable way, hopefully keeping 65 00:03:31,889 --> 00:03:34,859 Bruce Billson: those relationships together, so that people could get on with 66 00:03:34,859 --> 00:03:38,280 Bruce Billson: business. So, we do about 7, 000 matters a year, 67 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,820 Bruce Billson: where we provide advice and guidance on how to resolve 68 00:03:41,820 --> 00:03:45,210 Bruce Billson: disputes involving a small business. And then, in many of 69 00:03:45,210 --> 00:03:48,809 Bruce Billson: those, we become a case manager and may recommend alternate 70 00:03:48,809 --> 00:03:52,559 Bruce Billson: dispute mediation. And just to close that loop, Sean, from 71 00:03:52,559 --> 00:03:56,160 Bruce Billson: our policy insights, the assistance work that the case studies 72 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,950 Bruce Billson: that we're involved in ... We try and put out better 73 00:03:58,950 --> 00:04:02,579 Bruce Billson: practice advice to small- and- family businesses. Time poor, but 74 00:04:02,580 --> 00:04:06,000 Bruce Billson: maybe not knowing what the hazards are of engaging a search- 75 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,360 Bruce Billson: engine optimization firm. They'll talk to you about doubling your 76 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,449 Bruce Billson: revenue, but they'll actually sell you activity that may or 77 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,270 Bruce Billson: may not result in that uplift in revenue. We'll put 78 00:04:15,270 --> 00:04:17,880 Bruce Billson: that kind of advice out there saying, " Before you do 79 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,070 Bruce Billson: that, maybe have a bit of a think about this. 80 00:04:20,070 --> 00:04:22,919 Bruce Billson: Here's some way you can navigate a complex issue," or, " 81 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,279 Bruce Billson: Here's some advice, whether it be about cyber security, accessing 82 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,368 Bruce Billson: finance. What do you need to tell an insurance broker?" 83 00:04:29,369 --> 00:04:31,770 Bruce Billson: We'll put that sort of useful know- how and better 84 00:04:31,770 --> 00:04:34,979 Bruce Billson: practice advice out there. So, they're the three legs of our stool, Sean. 85 00:04:35,550 --> 00:04:39,570 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So, there's plenty in that. You must be across 86 00:04:39,570 --> 00:04:43,349 Sean Aylmer: a lot of small businesses, family businesses. What's the state 87 00:04:43,349 --> 00:04:45,899 Sean Aylmer: of play for them at the moment? They've been through 88 00:04:45,900 --> 00:04:49,500 Sean Aylmer: COVID. We obviously have lots of cost- of- living pressures, 89 00:04:49,770 --> 00:04:53,640 Sean Aylmer: inflation pressures, staff shortages, natural disasters, thinking for the rain 90 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,529 Sean Aylmer: going on in Melbourne, Tasmanian, New South Wales at the 91 00:04:55,529 --> 00:04:58,530 Sean Aylmer: moment. Where's the sector up to? It must be exhausted almost. 92 00:04:58,740 --> 00:05:01,919 Bruce Billson: Yeah. Well, that's a word I often use, Sean, is that most small- and- 93 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,639 Bruce Billson: family businesses are exhausted right now. Well, whilst they experienced 94 00:05:05,639 --> 00:05:09,390 Bruce Billson: during COVID and the period since, whilst the challenges that 95 00:05:09,390 --> 00:05:11,789 Bruce Billson: natural disasters, and we've had way too many of those, 96 00:05:11,790 --> 00:05:15,510 Bruce Billson: have been there and the ramifications are being worked through 97 00:05:15,510 --> 00:05:18,689 Bruce Billson: by small- and- family businesses. There's so much going on. 98 00:05:18,690 --> 00:05:21,150 Bruce Billson: And with some of those issues that you pointed to, 99 00:05:21,150 --> 00:05:26,460 Bruce Billson: a lack of available staff, skills challenges, supply chain blockages, 100 00:05:26,670 --> 00:05:28,830 Bruce Billson: even all the way through to getting paid in a 101 00:05:28,830 --> 00:05:32,850 Bruce Billson: respectable time, they've made business a tough business to be 102 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,240 Bruce Billson: in. And the plight of small- and- family businesses with that 103 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,859 Bruce Billson: shared experience, the outcomes have actually been extremely varied. A 104 00:05:40,859 --> 00:05:43,289 Bruce Billson: number of small- and- family businesses frankly have had a 105 00:05:43,290 --> 00:05:47,460 Bruce Billson: terrific pandemic. They've been in the line of work, they've 106 00:05:47,460 --> 00:05:51,570 Bruce Billson: provided goods and services that have delighted customers. Or frankly, 107 00:05:51,570 --> 00:05:55,349 Bruce Billson: Sean, as so many businesses are, they've solved problems that 108 00:05:55,349 --> 00:05:59,609 Bruce Billson: these new challenges have provided and have profited quite handsomely 109 00:05:59,609 --> 00:06:02,880 Bruce Billson: from it. Others have just hung on. Many who've who've 110 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,940 Bruce Billson: done okay have pivoted. There's that word, but they've made 111 00:06:05,940 --> 00:06:09,660 Bruce Billson: adjustments to the way they do business and that's got 112 00:06:09,660 --> 00:06:12,808 Bruce Billson: them through. Others may have a weak pulse in their 113 00:06:12,809 --> 00:06:16,469 Bruce Billson: business, that the government support's been vital to keep them 114 00:06:16,469 --> 00:06:19,650 Bruce Billson: afloat. Now they're thinking about, what's next? And for some 115 00:06:19,650 --> 00:06:23,490 Bruce Billson: it's been absolutely punishing. Absolutely punishing. If you are a foot- 116 00:06:23,490 --> 00:06:28,650 Bruce Billson: traffic customer- facing business, if you need the suburban centers 117 00:06:28,650 --> 00:06:33,089 Bruce Billson: and the CBDs throbbing with humanity as you nab a 118 00:06:33,089 --> 00:06:36,058 Bruce Billson: couple of those people that go past your cafe, or 119 00:06:36,299 --> 00:06:39,300 Bruce Billson: your retail outlet, that foot traffic's not there. And if 120 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:42,600 Bruce Billson: you're in the visitor economy, there hasn't been the visitor 121 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,660 Bruce Billson: levels that have been there. The arts and entertainment area 122 00:06:45,660 --> 00:06:48,450 Bruce Billson: that's been particularly challenging. And, even for those that have 123 00:06:48,450 --> 00:06:51,928 Bruce Billson: been doing well and there's some delicious possibilities right in 124 00:06:51,928 --> 00:06:54,988 Bruce Billson: front of them, some supply chain and skill issues have 125 00:06:54,990 --> 00:06:57,779 Bruce Billson: actually held them back. And think about the building industry. 126 00:06:57,779 --> 00:07:00,300 Bruce Billson: I know so many builders that have flat- chat, but 127 00:07:00,630 --> 00:07:03,868 Bruce Billson: hardly making a profit at all cause of delays in 128 00:07:03,870 --> 00:07:08,068 Bruce Billson: getting certain stages of projects done, cost increases on key 129 00:07:08,070 --> 00:07:12,180 Bruce Billson: inputs and the difficulty getting trade. So, it's a really 130 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:12,930 Bruce Billson: mixed picture. 131 00:07:13,260 --> 00:07:15,090 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Bruce. We'll be back in a minute. 132 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,090 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Bruce Billson, Small Business and 133 00:07:24,090 --> 00:07:29,640 Sean Aylmer: Family Enterprise Ombudsman. So, philosophically, do you think Australia gives 134 00:07:29,940 --> 00:07:33,060 Sean Aylmer: small businesses a fair go? And this comes down to 135 00:07:33,060 --> 00:07:36,510 Sean Aylmer: government, really, the rules and regulations around small business? 136 00:07:36,810 --> 00:07:40,709 Bruce Billson: Look, I think the intention is there, Sean. Well, to 137 00:07:40,710 --> 00:07:43,889 Bruce Billson: coin a phrase that I often use, " Nice backswing. Where's 138 00:07:43,889 --> 00:07:47,159 Bruce Billson: the follow through?" So I think people are talking well 139 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,360 Bruce Billson: about that. They recognize that a small business isn't a shrink- 140 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,260 Bruce Billson: wrapped version of a big business. Yet, so often policy makers, 141 00:07:55,260 --> 00:07:59,729 Bruce Billson: program designers, regulators seem to imagine that a small business 142 00:07:59,730 --> 00:08:03,179 Bruce Billson: has all the bandwidth, all the diversity of skills, all 143 00:08:03,179 --> 00:08:07,110 Bruce Billson: the capacity to come up with some new expectation that 144 00:08:07,110 --> 00:08:10,350 Bruce Billson: government might have of them, when they're already so time 145 00:08:10,350 --> 00:08:14,490 Bruce Billson: poor. No one got into business for the back end 146 00:08:14,490 --> 00:08:16,830 Bruce Billson: of running the business. I know when my wife and 147 00:08:16,830 --> 00:08:20,309 Bruce Billson: I had our businesses and it was the greatest contraceptive ever invented. 148 00:08:20,309 --> 00:08:23,549 Bruce Billson: We'd be having a pillow talk of cash flow and 149 00:08:23,549 --> 00:08:26,002 Bruce Billson: basses and making sure we pay paid (inaudible) . 150 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:27,300 Sean Aylmer: Lucky, Mrs. Billson! 151 00:08:27,390 --> 00:08:29,730 Bruce Billson: Oh look, living the dream, mate! Living the dream. But, 152 00:08:30,450 --> 00:08:34,588 Bruce Billson: it's an unrelenting thing. And most of those compliance obligations, 153 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,219 Bruce Billson: small, family businesses do those after hours. And when they're 154 00:08:38,219 --> 00:08:42,089 Bruce Billson: also filling shifts that the staff aren't available for or 155 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,870 Bruce Billson: someone's called in sick, or something like that, there are just constant 156 00:08:46,170 --> 00:08:50,730 Bruce Billson: demands. And I keep saying to people, we're not anti- 157 00:08:50,730 --> 00:08:55,290 Bruce Billson: regulation. Regulation has its place, but please, let's right size 158 00:08:55,290 --> 00:08:59,309 Bruce Billson: it, so it's relevant and it's genuinely commensurate with the 159 00:08:59,309 --> 00:09:02,520 Bruce Billson: risk you're trying to address. And it's the minimum effective 160 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,059 Bruce Billson: imposition you're putting on extremely time- poor people to start 161 00:09:06,059 --> 00:09:09,179 Bruce Billson: with. So, I suppose that's one context around the compliance 162 00:09:09,179 --> 00:09:11,700 Bruce Billson: side. The other one I'd throw out there is, I'm 163 00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:14,789 Bruce Billson: not sure there's a deep enough appreciation of just how 164 00:09:15,089 --> 00:09:17,819 Bruce Billson: vital small- and- family businesses are, not only to the 165 00:09:17,820 --> 00:09:21,450 Bruce Billson: economy generally, but the uplift. You look at times like 166 00:09:21,450 --> 00:09:26,130 Bruce Billson: the GFC, small businesses was about just between four and 167 00:09:26,130 --> 00:09:30,389 Bruce Billson: five of every 10 private sector employees. Yet the new 168 00:09:30,389 --> 00:09:32,640 Bruce Billson: jobs that came out the other side of the GFC, 169 00:09:32,940 --> 00:09:35,129 Bruce Billson: two out of three were coming from those small businesses. 170 00:09:35,129 --> 00:09:39,540 Bruce Billson: So, they're drivers, they're innovators, they're producing new ways of 171 00:09:39,540 --> 00:09:42,809 Bruce Billson: delighting customers and new ways of creating wealth and opportunity. 172 00:09:43,260 --> 00:09:45,149 Bruce Billson: I reckon that means they should have the wind in 173 00:09:45,150 --> 00:09:48,179 Bruce Billson: their sails, not the wind in their face. And that's 174 00:09:48,179 --> 00:09:50,699 Bruce Billson: often the challenge that we tackle. Just trying to make 175 00:09:50,700 --> 00:09:54,059 Bruce Billson: sure they get a fair go to thrive and prosper. 176 00:09:54,690 --> 00:09:56,280 Sean Aylmer: I just want to ask about cyber, because I'm sure 177 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,478 Sean Aylmer: that the Optus hack recently, Woolworth's earlier this week. It 178 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,120 Sean Aylmer: must worry small businesses, because many wouldn't know what to 179 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:03,870 Sean Aylmer: do, I presume? 180 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,660 Bruce Billson: Yeah. And look, they're on edge. And, frankly, all the 181 00:10:06,660 --> 00:10:10,859 Bruce Billson: research is telling us that small- and- family businesses are 182 00:10:10,859 --> 00:10:12,840 Bruce Billson: a bit of a preferred target for some of the 183 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,170 Bruce Billson: scammers and for some of the cyber crims. But, the 184 00:10:16,170 --> 00:10:20,220 Bruce Billson: most prominent thing that's happening is a cyber criminal will 185 00:10:20,220 --> 00:10:26,099 Bruce Billson: tap into a small business's email system. They'll see invoicing 186 00:10:26,099 --> 00:10:29,159 Bruce Billson: that's going out from the small business. In some cases 187 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,730 Bruce Billson: they'll intervene, and this is called an invoice scam. They'll 188 00:10:32,790 --> 00:10:36,750 Bruce Billson: intervene, they'll put some other bank account details in, other 189 00:10:36,750 --> 00:10:40,170 Bruce Billson: than the business itself, and then shoot that over to 190 00:10:40,170 --> 00:10:43,799 Bruce Billson: an unsuspecting customer, who's expecting the bill from there. They'll 191 00:10:43,799 --> 00:10:45,750 Bruce Billson: probably know what the number is that they need to 192 00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:48,449 Bruce Billson: pay, and when it arrives they think, " Okay. Let's just settle 193 00:10:48,450 --> 00:10:51,900 Bruce Billson: that account," and they'll go and punch in those adulterated 194 00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:54,780 Bruce Billson: bank details. And all of a sudden some joker on 195 00:10:54,780 --> 00:10:57,000 Bruce Billson: the other side of the world's getting some hard- earned 196 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,399 Bruce Billson: that's come out of a customer wanting to do the 197 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,610 Bruce Billson: right thing by Australian small business. So, that's the most 198 00:11:02,610 --> 00:11:06,118 Bruce Billson: common attack on small businesses. Then the next one of 199 00:11:06,119 --> 00:11:09,540 Bruce Billson: those phishing scams, where you get an email that kind 200 00:11:09,540 --> 00:11:13,290 Bruce Billson: of looks like it's okay, Sean. But, what sits within 201 00:11:13,290 --> 00:11:17,219 Bruce Billson: it is an entree into your technology that then sees 202 00:11:17,219 --> 00:11:22,109 Bruce Billson: people messing with your digital infrastructure, or in some cases, 203 00:11:22,109 --> 00:11:25,679 Bruce Billson: demanding a payment for you to access your own information. 204 00:11:26,070 --> 00:11:28,559 Bruce Billson: So, it's a real issue. I'd say it's a BAU, 205 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,490 Bruce Billson: a business- as- usual issue for small business. But not 206 00:11:32,490 --> 00:11:35,429 Bruce Billson: all feel well- equipped to tackle it. And I think 207 00:11:35,429 --> 00:11:38,819 Bruce Billson: part of that's because often we hear about these mega, 208 00:11:38,910 --> 00:11:43,290 Bruce Billson: mega cyber strikes on big companies and think, " My goodness! 209 00:11:43,290 --> 00:11:46,410 Bruce Billson: They're sophisticated. How would I ever combat that?" But there 210 00:11:46,410 --> 00:11:50,640 Bruce Billson: are things a small business can do. Simple, multifactor authentication. Having 211 00:11:50,970 --> 00:11:55,889 Bruce Billson: sophisticated passwords or pass phrases. Making sure not everybody's got 212 00:11:55,889 --> 00:12:00,029 Bruce Billson: full access to all parts of your technology. Thinking twice 213 00:12:00,029 --> 00:12:03,780 Bruce Billson: about those emails that look kind of dodgy, but kind 214 00:12:03,780 --> 00:12:06,690 Bruce Billson: of okay. I mean you're probably too young, Sean, but 215 00:12:06,690 --> 00:12:09,750 Bruce Billson: I'd say listen to your spidey senses. If it looks 216 00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:11,730 Bruce Billson: kind of weird, there's a fair chance it is in 217 00:12:11,730 --> 00:12:16,078 Bruce Billson: this world. And then, get training that's needed to make 218 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,319 Bruce Billson: sure you got timely backups, so if someone does take 219 00:12:19,530 --> 00:12:22,559 Bruce Billson: your system down, you can stand it up again, when 220 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,530 Bruce Billson: it was the last time it was healthy. And also, 221 00:12:25,860 --> 00:12:28,469 Bruce Billson: think deeply about training your staff to be alert to 222 00:12:28,469 --> 00:12:31,799 Bruce Billson: these things. The data, it's about nine to 10 grand 223 00:12:31,799 --> 00:12:35,219 Bruce Billson: is the actual cost on average for a cyber strike 224 00:12:35,219 --> 00:12:39,510 Bruce Billson: on a small business. And that's from the cyber security center 225 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,319 Bruce Billson: out of Canberra. But, worryingly, there's a significant number, Sean, 226 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,920 Bruce Billson: that never come back. They just don't pay the money. 227 00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:51,239 Bruce Billson: Their systems are compromised. Or moreover their customers, who were 228 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,569 Bruce Billson: trusting them with customer information might think, " Just not sure 229 00:12:54,570 --> 00:12:57,150 Bruce Billson: about these folks now. I might not continue to trade 230 00:12:57,150 --> 00:12:59,550 Bruce Billson: with them." So it is a big issue, but there are things 231 00:12:59,970 --> 00:13:02,370 Bruce Billson: within the gift of small business that they can do, and I 232 00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:05,010 Bruce Billson: strongly encourage people to turn their mind to that. 233 00:13:05,670 --> 00:13:07,379 Sean Aylmer: Well Bruce, good luck with the role. Thank you for 234 00:13:07,380 --> 00:13:08,400 Sean Aylmer: talking to Fear and Greed. 235 00:13:08,610 --> 00:13:09,420 Bruce Billson: Great to be with you. 236 00:13:10,139 --> 00:13:13,470 Sean Aylmer: That was Bruce Billson, Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman. 237 00:13:13,740 --> 00:13:15,780 Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us 238 00:13:15,780 --> 00:13:17,880 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, 239 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,600 Sean Aylmer: Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.