1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:02,759
Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installment of the podcast.

2
00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:06,840
Speaker 1: Craig Anthony Harper. Who else would it be joining me

3
00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,080
Speaker 1: from the other side of the world. Is my new

4
00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,440
Speaker 1: friend Cass Hi, Cass.

5
00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:13,119
Speaker 2: Hey there, how's it going?

6
00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's gone great.

7
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,759
Speaker 1: Tell my listeners where you're at as we speak? So

8
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,479
Speaker 1: as we record here in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne

9
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,080
Speaker 1: at seven oh five in the am. A very rude

10
00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:26,520
Speaker 1: time to do a podcast.

11
00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:28,800
Speaker 3: Now, I'm already up.

12
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,440
Speaker 1: I've had my coffee, I've been caffeinated, I've gone for

13
00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,440
Speaker 1: a walk. My nervous system is just humming, so I'm

14
00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:36,000
Speaker 1: good to go.

15
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:37,440
Speaker 3: Where are you? What time is it?

16
00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,000
Speaker 2: Well, I'm in Brooklyn, New York. It's five pm. And

17
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,319
Speaker 2: thank you so much. I very much appreciate you being

18
00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,680
Speaker 2: up at seven am instead of me. We would not

19
00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,559
Speaker 2: have had a very interesting conversation if it were my

20
00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,520
Speaker 2: seven am and you're five pm. Thank you, Craig. Really

21
00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:56,880
Speaker 2: you took one for the team there.

22
00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,440
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. You definitely

23
00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:04,120
Speaker 1: owe me one. It's fifteen love. No, I'm just being silly.

24
00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,120
Speaker 1: So you're not a morning person. What's your optimal I

25
00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,119
Speaker 1: know you're a creative amongst many other things. What's your

26
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,480
Speaker 1: optimal creative time? When are you at your best?

27
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, when the sun goes down. I find the sun

28
00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 2: extremely distracting, and I just want to be outside, playing,

29
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:29,240
Speaker 2: making things, exploring the world and people. And then when

30
00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,600
Speaker 2: the sun goes down, I can really kind of like

31
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,839
Speaker 2: settle in and focus a bit better.

32
00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,680
Speaker 3: You know, there are parts of the world it's dark

33
00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,200
Speaker 3: twenty hours a day. You know that.

34
00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know that that would work. Again, the

35
00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,880
Speaker 2: sun is distracting because I love it, right, Okay, I

36
00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,160
Speaker 2: don't know if that would work for me. I admire

37
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,720
Speaker 2: those people, and I've watched documentaries with awe because I'm

38
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,720
Speaker 2: just I'm fascinated by people who are capable and living

39
00:01:55,760 --> 00:02:00,160
Speaker 2: in models that are so different than than than my own. So,

40
00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:02,560
Speaker 2: but no, you couldn't do it?

41
00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:03,680
Speaker 3: Are you a natural?

42
00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:04,000
Speaker 2: Like?

43
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:09,760
Speaker 1: Sometimes like my doctorate is in psych science and my

44
00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,639
Speaker 1: undergrad is in exercise physiology or excise science, and so

45
00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,400
Speaker 1: I kind of get pigeonholed as a science person. But

46
00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,680
Speaker 1: I feel I'm naturally more creative. Like I've written seven books,

47
00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,080
Speaker 1: and I've done lots of stuff and built businesses, and

48
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,959
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm a creative living in a like

49
00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 1: like a round person living in a square hole, so

50
00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,720
Speaker 1: to speak. You know, are you naturally creative or did

51
00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:36,600
Speaker 1: you develop that?

52
00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,400
Speaker 2: No, I'm naturally creative, and I think that the creativity,

53
00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,760
Speaker 2: like pleayfulness, is a muscle that, of course we exercise,

54
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,480
Speaker 2: and the more that are we've kind of designed our

55
00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,919
Speaker 2: lives to have room for it. And the more habits

56
00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,440
Speaker 2: we have around creativity and playfulness, like, the more we

57
00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,760
Speaker 2: use it and the more natural it comes to us.

58
00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,320
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think I think by nature and playful

59
00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,480
Speaker 2: in part based on kind of the trajectory of my

60
00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,480
Speaker 2: life and the way I kind of came up as

61
00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,760
Speaker 2: a young adult. But yeah, I do think I think

62
00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,280
Speaker 2: that that there is some anat creativity, and then I

63
00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:19,720
Speaker 2: do think that there are a number of things that

64
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,400
Speaker 2: we can like learn as skills as well.

65
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, why do you What are your thoughts on

66
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,200
Speaker 1: I've got a few, but I want to hear yours

67
00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,040
Speaker 1: first on why we tend to play less as we

68
00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,240
Speaker 1: get old. I mean, apart from the busyness and the

69
00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,440
Speaker 1: mayhem of life and trying to pay bills and.

70
00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,120
Speaker 3: Kids and run a business, I mean, there's that I mean,

71
00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,600
Speaker 3: there's life, so you've got to get you're got to

72
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,520
Speaker 3: get out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, But so what else is there?

73
00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:48,760
Speaker 2: Though?

74
00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,760
Speaker 3: Are we embarrassed to play? Do we feel too self conscious?

75
00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,960
Speaker 3: Do we worry about being judged because we're fucking grown up?

76
00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,119
Speaker 3: So we've got emotional bullshit?

77
00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, all of the above, all of the above. You know.

78
00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,400
Speaker 2: We also we don't prioritize I think we don't really

79
00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,720
Speaker 2: respect play all that much, so we don't prioritize it.

80
00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,360
Speaker 2: I think, like if you were to look back at

81
00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,840
Speaker 2: exercise fifty years ago, as someone who knows a lot

82
00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:18,279
Speaker 2: about exercise, we didn't respect it. We didn't know that

83
00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:19,960
Speaker 2: it would be good for us or that we needed

84
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,800
Speaker 2: it right. So it wasn't a priority. It wasn't a

85
00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,599
Speaker 2: thing that people really took seriously. And I think play

86
00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,400
Speaker 2: is very similar right now. And I look forward to

87
00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,320
Speaker 2: a play renaissance where we start to respect play and

88
00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,080
Speaker 2: understand its value and therefore we prioritize it right, and

89
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,920
Speaker 2: then we design our lives to integrate it more so

90
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:43,080
Speaker 2: that things like our jobs and taxes and cleaning the

91
00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:48,000
Speaker 2: house and whatnot, not only like become could become more playful,

92
00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:55,280
Speaker 2: but also you know, make room for more play. So

93
00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,840
Speaker 2: but yes, and then the other part is that I

94
00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,440
Speaker 2: do think that as we come up, like part of

95
00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,800
Speaker 2: kind of growing up from puberty on is learning how

96
00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,680
Speaker 2: to suppress our play and instincts, right, I mean the

97
00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:09,960
Speaker 2: way that we go to school, the way that our

98
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,200
Speaker 2: learning is structured in these institutions that are that are

99
00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,520
Speaker 2: really actually kind of about controlling us, right, and controlling ourselves.

100
00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,520
Speaker 2: We learn how to control our instinct like hold still,

101
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:26,840
Speaker 2: stop joking around, don't you know, don't be immature. All

102
00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:31,320
Speaker 2: of these things are this this like underlying message is

103
00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,400
Speaker 2: to be playful as bad. It's to be immature, to

104
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,320
Speaker 2: be immature as bad. We are aspiring to be taken seriously,

105
00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 2: and being taken seriously requires that, you know, we are

106
00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:46,400
Speaker 2: serious people. And so I think that by the time

107
00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:51,760
Speaker 2: we're in adultihood, we we're out of practice for one thing,

108
00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,960
Speaker 2: But we also have a lot of I call it

109
00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,840
Speaker 2: a play voice and an adult voice, and our adult

110
00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,440
Speaker 2: voice is really just shutting down our play ways at

111
00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,880
Speaker 2: every turn, Like the play the instinct that the play

112
00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,360
Speaker 2: voice that says like you know, hey, you know, throw

113
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,440
Speaker 2: throw a throw a lot of paper at your friend

114
00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,039
Speaker 2: while they're falling asleep in the meeting, you know, and

115
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:13,640
Speaker 2: then the one that says no, no, you can't do that

116
00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,800
Speaker 2: because that's not a thing that adults do, or like, hey,

117
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,160
Speaker 2: like wow, look at that like grassy slope right there.

118
00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,119
Speaker 2: Don't you want to roll down that? Wouldn't that feel

119
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,800
Speaker 2: so good? And then the adult voice is like, you'll

120
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,200
Speaker 2: look ridiculous, you can't do that, like ah, but your

121
00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,320
Speaker 2: shirt is clean, and then you'll get your suret dirty

122
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,080
Speaker 2: and heaven forbid, you know, there's the grass stain on

123
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:40,360
Speaker 2: your elbow. So yeah, I think that that we fear judgment.

124
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:47,800
Speaker 2: I think we also are we kind of judgment but

125
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,720
Speaker 2: also failure. I think we're we're if we as soon

126
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,640
Speaker 2: as we think we're not good at something, we stop

127
00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,760
Speaker 2: doing it often more often than not. And I think

128
00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,240
Speaker 2: adults often think that they're they're bad at play. Yeah.

129
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,760
Speaker 2: I hear from people a lot who tell me that they,

130
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,560
Speaker 2: you know, they they feel like when they try to

131
00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,560
Speaker 2: play with their kids, they don't really like it, or

132
00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,200
Speaker 2: that they're bad at play. And I think that in

133
00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,400
Speaker 2: and of itself would be a reason that some people

134
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 2: might not do it, because it's hard to do things

135
00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,200
Speaker 2: that you're bad at, right, or that you feel bad at.

136
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,480
Speaker 2: We're afraid of failure. We want to want to do

137
00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,400
Speaker 2: things that feel affirming. And so yeah, there's quite a

138
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,080
Speaker 2: few reasons.

139
00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,760
Speaker 1: It's super interesting. I don't do a whole lot of one.

140
00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,760
Speaker 1: I'm on coaching anymore. Performance coaching I do a bit,

141
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,560
Speaker 1: but you know I do more like talking to groups

142
00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,560
Speaker 1: and podcasts and all that stuff.

143
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 3: Right.

144
00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,800
Speaker 1: But I would often ask over the years of asked

145
00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,760
Speaker 1: this many times cas where I'm I'm chatting with someone

146
00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,640
Speaker 1: and I go, okay, so you've got to you know,

147
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,640
Speaker 1: you've got a health plan, you've got to diet, you

148
00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,760
Speaker 1: got a gym plan, you've got a financial plan, you've

149
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,840
Speaker 1: got a career plan, and all of those things.

150
00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:59,360
Speaker 3: And people who like on.

151
00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,520
Speaker 1: A level, on a level, they're doing well, like from

152
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,680
Speaker 1: the outside looking in their life's Hollywood, right, ticking all

153
00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,480
Speaker 1: the boxes, ticking all the success boxes. But in the

154
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,880
Speaker 1: middle of that, what seems to be pretty successful picture,

155
00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,760
Speaker 1: so fucking unhappy, right. And I would say to people

156
00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,880
Speaker 1: do you like having fun? And they'd look at me

157
00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,120
Speaker 1: like I'm an alien, And I say, I know this

158
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,160
Speaker 1: is a fundamental silly question, Just yes or no?

159
00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,520
Speaker 3: Do they'd go, of course, I go, do you love

160
00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:32,120
Speaker 3: having fun?

161
00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:32,360
Speaker 2: Oh?

162
00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,800
Speaker 3: I love having fun? I go, cool, what's your fun plan?

163
00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,000
Speaker 1: Like, you've got a health plan, a financial plan, you've

164
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,720
Speaker 1: got a career plan, and you're telling me this thing

165
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,480
Speaker 1: that you love is having fun. Cool, what's the plan?

166
00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:46,520
Speaker 1: And they look at me like, I go, you need

167
00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,200
Speaker 1: to have a fun plan, Like.

168
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,120
Speaker 3: There needs to be It's good to be good.

169
00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:52,079
Speaker 2: It's good to look good.

170
00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,800
Speaker 1: It's good to function good. It's good to have a

171
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,960
Speaker 1: few bucks. It's good to all of those things. Of course,

172
00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,080
Speaker 1: a fundamental and paramount from an exist and human existence

173
00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 1: point of view.

174
00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,880
Speaker 3: But am I talking too fast for you? Sometimes I

175
00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:06,199
Speaker 3: feel like I too fast?

176
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,640
Speaker 2: No, I can give up New York. Remember weird?

177
00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,720
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yea, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but I met

178
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:12,360
Speaker 3: with the accent.

179
00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,400
Speaker 1: But yeah, and it's like and I know it's a

180
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,480
Speaker 1: weird thing, but just going like I have motorbikes, right,

181
00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,080
Speaker 1: So I have four motorbikes. That's part of my fun.

182
00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,280
Speaker 1: I train every day with one of my best friends

183
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:25,400
Speaker 1: in the world at the gym.

184
00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:27,880
Speaker 3: We go to the gym, we hang out, Like the

185
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,400
Speaker 3: gym for me is play.

186
00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:35,600
Speaker 1: We live ork shit, we be childish, we talk about crap,

187
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,040
Speaker 1: you know, and I have a twenty or I have

188
00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,800
Speaker 1: a business partner who runs my life who's way smarter,

189
00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:44,520
Speaker 1: more efficient, more organized than me.

190
00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:45,560
Speaker 3: Her name is Melissa.

191
00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,480
Speaker 1: She's quarter of a century younger than me, and I

192
00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,840
Speaker 1: am definitely the child in the relationship.

193
00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,560
Speaker 3: She just rolls her eyes. Right, she's thirty five or

194
00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,080
Speaker 3: thirty six or something like my shoes are older than her, right,

195
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,000
Speaker 3: And it's like she says to me, you're such a child.

196
00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,240
Speaker 3: I go, I know, thank you.

197
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm like, I you know, when I need

198
00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,439
Speaker 1: to be a grown up, I switch it on.

199
00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:17,120
Speaker 3: But like, and I know that, you know, I know there's.

200
00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,040
Speaker 1: A lot of other variables that when yeah, you got

201
00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:20,959
Speaker 1: to you've got to tick all these boxes.

202
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,000
Speaker 3: I get it. But it seems like a concept.

203
00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,520
Speaker 1: That we don't even really think about a lot is

204
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,480
Speaker 1: play and fun as we get older.

205
00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I like your concept of fun plan,

206
00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,640
Speaker 2: your question to people, what's your fun plan? Because I think, like,

207
00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:40,160
Speaker 2: you know what you described the person who seems seemingly

208
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,640
Speaker 2: has it all right. They have a great job, they've

209
00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,960
Speaker 2: got a big house, they've got an extra car, and

210
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,120
Speaker 2: they take vacations, but you know, like, so those are

211
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,360
Speaker 2: what we're told we're meant to need and want, right,

212
00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,000
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people like don't have

213
00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,520
Speaker 2: opportunities throughout their lives to kind of ask themselves what

214
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,760
Speaker 2: they actually want, because maybe they want those things, but

215
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:05,440
Speaker 2: also maybe not right. And similarly, like we're taught like

216
00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,240
Speaker 2: being an adult means not playing, but then every once

217
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,320
Speaker 2: in a while it's like, wait, now, why is that? Right?

218
00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:11,520
Speaker 2: So every once in a while we kind of have

219
00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:13,760
Speaker 2: to like tune in to ourselves and say, hold on,

220
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,000
Speaker 2: does that work for me though? Right? So, and in

221
00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 2: the book, I talk about this idea of kind of

222
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,600
Speaker 2: reframing success that one of the things that adults need

223
00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:23,720
Speaker 2: to do to be able to like access and get

224
00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 2: back in touch with their play is to reframe success

225
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,760
Speaker 2: and to think not just in the small scale.

226
00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 3: Right.

227
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,720
Speaker 2: If you're if you're like, well, I'm on a hike,

228
00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:35,880
Speaker 2: so the goal is to get to the top of

229
00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:40,600
Speaker 2: the mountain. But it's not like I'm with a child,

230
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,880
Speaker 2: so it's taking forever and it's kind of frustrating. And

231
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,880
Speaker 2: I would propose, well, in that case, reframe success. Maybe

232
00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,320
Speaker 2: success is actually just that you have you spend quality

233
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,880
Speaker 2: time together. So who cares whether or not you make

234
00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:55,720
Speaker 2: it to the top of the mountain. Right. Success isn't

235
00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,280
Speaker 2: getting to the top of the mountain. Success is that

236
00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,480
Speaker 2: you had fun, Right, And so there's the kind of

237
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,600
Speaker 2: like like in order to have like a playful approach,

238
00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,880
Speaker 2: like reframing success is really helpful because we often get

239
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,040
Speaker 2: kind of single minded about what we think we're trying

240
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:11,839
Speaker 2: to do, when in fact, like if you kind of

241
00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,160
Speaker 2: open it up and say, wait, but what's my actual goal?

242
00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,000
Speaker 2: It opens up so many more possibilities and really like

243
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,480
Speaker 2: takes the pressure off of whatever you thought you were

244
00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 2: supposed to be doing, either in that moment or in

245
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,240
Speaker 2: this stage of your life where maybe you have an

246
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,680
Speaker 2: opportunity to do something that feels a little bit off

247
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,160
Speaker 2: path or off track but appeals to you for whatever reason.

248
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,840
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about your your book in the moment.

249
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,520
Speaker 1: By the way, Cass's new book is called Playful. How

250
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,200
Speaker 1: play shifts our thinking, inspires connection and sparks creativity.

251
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,280
Speaker 3: There it is right there, but nice plug.

252
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,200
Speaker 2: You, it's out there.

253
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,720
Speaker 3: Give God by five copies, no.

254
00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,280
Speaker 1: Pressure, maybe ten Christmas is on the way. I just

255
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,719
Speaker 1: wanted to We're going to circle back to the core

256
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,880
Speaker 1: concepts in the book. But while we're talking about success,

257
00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 1: this is one of my favorite topics to talk and

258
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,600
Speaker 1: think about because in Australia anyway, I've been to the

259
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,840
Speaker 1: States a bunch, I'm pretty sure it's the same.

260
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,920
Speaker 3: Like when you think about what are.

261
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,920
Speaker 1: We taught culturally, sociologically, you know around our friends in

262
00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,480
Speaker 1: the media and the social media. You know, success is

263
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,080
Speaker 1: about stuff, what you have, what you earn, what your own,

264
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,640
Speaker 1: what you look like, what people think you, how many followers,

265
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,640
Speaker 1: how many sales, how much money in the bank, And

266
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,800
Speaker 1: not that any of those things are bad, of course,

267
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,600
Speaker 1: but to me that's all the kind of external visible

268
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,840
Speaker 1: KPIs and how many people do do and I know

269
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,160
Speaker 1: who have ticked all of most of those boxes and

270
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,240
Speaker 1: from the outside looking in their life as Hollywood, but

271
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,599
Speaker 1: the inside out experience is shit because they're emotionally, spiritually,

272
00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,480
Speaker 1: mentally bankrupt. You know, It's like the outside is all

273
00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 1: shiny and razzle dazzle, but the inside is broken. And

274
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,679
Speaker 1: so for me, I try to divide success from the

275
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,600
Speaker 1: external to the internal. And so when people go I

276
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,560
Speaker 1: want this, I want that, like they're all and you

277
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,160
Speaker 1: think also cass.

278
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:14,679
Speaker 3: About like well, why do we want that?

279
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 1: Well, we want that because we think it's going to

280
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,120
Speaker 1: change something in here, like oh, I'll be less stressed,

281
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,119
Speaker 1: I'll be more calm, I'll be happier, I'll be more fulfilled,

282
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,240
Speaker 1: I'll be more balanced, the anxiety will evaporate, I'll be

283
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,360
Speaker 1: more popular, more desirable, whatever. And then the truth is

284
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,440
Speaker 1: that when we get to the top of the mountain,

285
00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,360
Speaker 1: as you were talking about, sometimes we're like, oh, fuck,

286
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,160
Speaker 1: I just climbed the wrong mountain. It's that mountain over there,

287
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,720
Speaker 1: Like the external doesn't often equate to the internal that

288
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:46,560
Speaker 1: we thought it would.

289
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And so what you got to the top?

290
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,000
Speaker 2: Was it fun? Like are you happy up there? Now?

291
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,320
Speaker 2: You know you're still just there with yourself, So yeah,

292
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,960
Speaker 2: it's interesting. I mean that's just like in general, it

293
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,120
Speaker 2: sounds like we're both just making a plug for therapy,

294
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:10,720
Speaker 2: like go to therapy, like ask yourself the hard questions.

295
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,840
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean it's it's really I think that

296
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 2: the play is something that we just really we think

297
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,320
Speaker 2: that we it's like an extra like eventually we'll get there,

298
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 2: maybe we will, or like every once in a while,

299
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,200
Speaker 2: and I think like increasingly like it is is a

300
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 2: very real human need, and I think a lot of

301
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,560
Speaker 2: like the times that we're not feeling well, Like it's like,

302
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,840
Speaker 2: oh wait, maybe I just need to like run around

303
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:37,480
Speaker 2: for a second, or maybe I need three and a

304
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,480
Speaker 2: half minutes of my favorite song to jump around, and

305
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,320
Speaker 2: then I'll hop back on this email thread, right Like

306
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,760
Speaker 2: there's really subtle ways that we can integrate it and

307
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:51,240
Speaker 2: just like we just feel better and treat each other better.

308
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,200
Speaker 2: I also, I like, if i'm I can tell I'm

309
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,800
Speaker 2: of course very in touch with my play instacs and

310
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,080
Speaker 2: when I like am ignoring my play voice, everybody around

311
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,920
Speaker 2: me is going to suffer, you know, So we can

312
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,200
Speaker 2: be better to each other if we also were a

313
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,640
Speaker 2: little more in touch with our play voices.

314
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:11,320
Speaker 3: Do you reckon that?

315
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:16,040
Speaker 1: For you, that play is just to conduit to the

316
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,360
Speaker 1: thing that you need, which is you know, joy, which

317
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,880
Speaker 1: is calm, which is creative expression, which is it's like

318
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,320
Speaker 1: that's almost the vehicle to get you the thing that

319
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 1: you really want, Do you know what I mean? Like

320
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,920
Speaker 1: for me, seventy people, why I go to the gym

321
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 1: is to hang out with my mate and talk like

322
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,160
Speaker 1: I want to lift someone. Yeah, I really want connection.

323
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:43,000
Speaker 2: Yeah Yeah, I think I think most, not most, a

324
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,080
Speaker 2: lot of play. I would most play that at least

325
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,400
Speaker 2: I think that adults are a little bit disconnected from

326
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,280
Speaker 2: is social play. So there's all kinds of different types

327
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,480
Speaker 2: of there's play types, there's kind of play personalities that

328
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 2: a scientist named Stuart Brown has kind of like defined

329
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,520
Speaker 2: and done his work around in his research, and and

330
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,359
Speaker 2: and then there's there's all of the various ways of

331
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,959
Speaker 2: kind of getting these different play types or like pursuing

332
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,199
Speaker 2: your play personality or your needs right And in my

333
00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 2: mind is largely driven by being in touch with what

334
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,280
Speaker 2: do I need at any point, you know, and is

335
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,719
Speaker 2: it play or is it food? Or is it you know,

336
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,959
Speaker 2: an app, is it to just be outside for a second,

337
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:33,240
Speaker 2: or and you know, as a designer for play, So

338
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,320
Speaker 2: so my whole world is immersed in play. I design

339
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:41,639
Speaker 2: toys and learning materials and playgrounds. I now wrote this

340
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:46,040
Speaker 2: book that's more focused on adults. And then I also

341
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,240
Speaker 2: like in the meantime, I have to try to see

342
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 2: if along the way, like I'm you know, keeping up

343
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,520
Speaker 2: with my own needs for playing and then at the

344
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:59,280
Speaker 2: same time observing them because as an adult I need

345
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,720
Speaker 2: to notice what it is and why as well. As

346
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,400
Speaker 2: like learn from other people, learn from my own experience

347
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:09,639
Speaker 2: with it. So uh, but I think for me it's

348
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 2: it's it's it's like a holistic wellness. It's also my work,

349
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,800
Speaker 2: like play is my work and it's in it's and

350
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,720
Speaker 2: whether or not it's part of my work, Like it's

351
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,080
Speaker 2: also not always fun like play is, and social play

352
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,639
Speaker 2: in particular can be really scary and we can get

353
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,040
Speaker 2: really really hurt because in order to play, we have

354
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,600
Speaker 2: to be vulnerable, right, yeah, And that's why it can'

355
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 2: why it can be so impactful is that we like

356
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 2: we have to trust ourselves, we have to trust the

357
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,560
Speaker 2: people we're with, and in order to trust, like our

358
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 2: when we trust, we're vulnerable. And then the more vulnerable

359
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,960
Speaker 2: we are, like the obviously the more we can get hurt.

360
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,960
Speaker 2: And so there, like play isn't always hunky dory, right

361
00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,439
Speaker 2: and then similarly, like play is a way that we

362
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,439
Speaker 2: can deal with times that are not hunky dory, like

363
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,479
Speaker 2: times that are very hard, and we can deal with

364
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:11,239
Speaker 2: hard things through play. And so I think it's much

365
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 2: more complicated than people typically think. And it's interesting. I

366
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,680
Speaker 2: don't usually use the word fun when I'm talking about play.

367
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it is. I mean, of course, yeah, like

368
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 3: I just just for me.

369
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 1: That's because I'm essentially a fucking fifteen year old and

370
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,240
Speaker 1: a sixty year old body. Like that's for me. That's

371
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,439
Speaker 1: what I equate. But it is funny, funny, it is

372
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 1: no pun intended. It is interesting because as you're talking about,

373
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,200
Speaker 1: like sometimes play, yeah, it means being vulnerable. It means

374
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 1: trying new things. It means risk, It means opening new

375
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,879
Speaker 1: social doors. It means putting yourself in a situation you

376
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,440
Speaker 1: haven't been. So I think maybe as well as fun,

377
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,119
Speaker 1: there's also you know, there's the potential for growth and

378
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 1: understanding and awareness, which of course you know better than may.

379
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,199
Speaker 1: All right, enough for me, give us a snapshot of

380
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 1: the book. So the book everyone applayful, how apply shoot out,

381
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:16,360
Speaker 1: thinking in spots, connection and sparks creativity out now tell

382
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 1: us about the book, Yeah.

383
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 2: Really briefly though, thank you for that for the ramp

384
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,639
Speaker 2: launch launch pad. But I wonder if based on just

385
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,879
Speaker 2: what you were saying about how you have books and

386
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,680
Speaker 2: businesses and PhD candidates. I wonder if for you each

387
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,720
Speaker 2: of these new projects is in a way play, right,

388
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 2: Like I wonder if you you take on new projects

389
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,720
Speaker 2: or new inquiries. I mean, along with being obviously a

390
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:52,159
Speaker 2: very curious and excited human being, Like it seems I

391
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,479
Speaker 2: would say like for you, some of these things might

392
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,679
Speaker 2: be kind of how you play, right, Like you're excited

393
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,719
Speaker 2: about something, so you dive in and you play with

394
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:04,199
Speaker 2: the idea or the people or the organization through like building,

395
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 2: like you're creating these things, like whether it's a book

396
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 2: or a business or a group that does a thing together.

397
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that's just to say, like, yeah,

398
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 2: to me, I think play can look like that.

399
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 1: I think life is it can be play in the

400
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 1: sense that a lot of it is just making stuff up, creating,

401
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 1: solving problems. Just like you solve problems climbing a tree,

402
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 1: you solve problems in business, you solve problems in relationships. Yeah,

403
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of a lot of connection

404
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 1: and similarities and overlap. I like I realized when I

405
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 1: was twenty three or four casts I want to work,

406
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 1: but I don't want to work for a boss. So

407
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 1: I'm not lazy, but I don't like this kind of

408
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 1: I don't really I'm a terrible employee. I'm a terrible employee.

409
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,920
Speaker 3: Do not employ me, right, so I thought, I want

410
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 3: to work for me. What does that look like?

411
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: How do I do stuff that I enjoy that is fun,

412
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 1: where I'm learning, growing, evolving, makes a few bucks and

413
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 1: I get excited to go to work. I knew that

414
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 1: when I was twenty, right, And then when I was

415
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,679
Speaker 1: twenty six, I opened Australia's first personal training center.

416
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 3: So that was thirty five years ago, right, So for.

417
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: Me, and I don't mean like, yeah, it was good

418
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,199
Speaker 1: and it went great and it was fun and I

419
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 1: ended up opening four centers and all of that. It

420
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 1: was great, But just for me, the excitement of doing

421
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,640
Speaker 1: new things and opening new doors and fucking up and

422
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: getting back up and learning and growing and evolving and

423
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 1: getting shitit wrong, getting shit right, figuring out how do

424
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: I what's marketing, what's branding, what's leading, what's leadership, what's Yeah,

425
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 1: you know, I had no ideas, So it was just

426
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 1: every day was like new lessons and it was.

427
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 3: Very much for me in a way. It was played.

428
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an extremely pleaful process and a pleaful approach

429
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,400
Speaker 2: to all of those things, which is wonderful. That's great,

430
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 2: you spoke new spokesperson of a pleaful approach to leaf.

431
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 3: Exactly, just quickly before we dive into your books.

432
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 1: So, we have a lady on Her name is doctor

433
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 1: Sam Casey, and she lives on the other side of Australia.

434
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 1: We're on the East coast. She's on the west coast.

435
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 1: She's over in well, not in Perth, which is the capital,

436
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 1: but above the capitol. Anyway.

437
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, her whole thing is play therapy for mainly for

438
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 3: little ones. But yeah, so hold her whole work, Korea books,

439
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 3: all of that is around.

440
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's I think it's like it's

441
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 1: across the spectrum, right, It's across the lifespan. And even

442
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 1: you think about it, old people, old old people in

443
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,919
Speaker 1: God blessed in homes. What are they doing, Like a

444
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 1: lot of the time they're just playing with them like

445
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 1: games and music and yeah.

446
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 3: So yeah, anyway, I'll shut up.

447
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: Tell us about the core concepts of the book, the

448
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: ideas in it, and what was the kind of genesis

449
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: for it.

450
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 2: Well, So, as I mentioned, I'm a designer who has

451
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 2: been designing toys and playgrounds and playspaces for close to

452
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: twenty five years, and in that time I continued to

453
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 2: hear from adults from my either clients or audiences. When

454
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 2: I was doing a talk or presenting my work, the

455
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 2: question was was so often what about adults? And I

456
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: managed to reaction was usually just I don't go to therapy.

457
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 2: I'm not qualified to answer that. I don't know. I'm

458
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: busy doing this other thing, you know. And eventually I

459
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 2: realized that I've also was an art professor for thirteen years,

460
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: working with design students and also fine art students, and

461
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 2: noticing that they had a really hard time playing, which

462
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: is surprising because art for many people is play making.

463
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: Art or being in a studio is playful like and

464
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: has a lot of similarities with these the concepts of

465
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 2: flow right when you're when you're in a playful mindset,

466
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 2: so and and and the kind of working with them

467
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 2: and figuring out how to craft assignments or have conversations

468
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 2: with them so that they could feel, you know, free

469
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 2: to play. I kind of was was starting to fine

470
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 2: tune some of the ideas that I wrote about in

471
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 2: the book, you Know, which are the reframing success that

472
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: I talked about, the kind of embracing possibilities, which is

473
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 2: a little bit about curiosity and being open to what

474
00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 2: you might find that you don't expect. And I also

475
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: found with my design students that they were were like

476
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: the willingness to trust themselves had so much to do

477
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: with how much they were able to trust each other.

478
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 2: And then when when we all got to a place

479
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: where we trusted each other and I had like carefully

480
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 2: crafted this safe space for them to play in, it

481
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 2: got so rich, Like the ideas were beautiful. They were

482
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: excited about what was happening. Like a whole new level

483
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 2: of creativity erupted when they could really really like like

484
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 2: trust themselves and each other and get into that playful mindset.

485
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: And a big part of that was judgment. The fear

486
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 2: of judgment, not just of that others were going to

487
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: judge them, but realizing just how much they were judging

488
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: themselves for the play instinct or for the for maybe

489
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,239
Speaker 2: they were going to play wrong or maybe they were

490
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: you know what if they what if it you know,

491
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 2: fails or I look dumb, or my peers don't respect

492
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: me anymore. Especially, you know, the undergraduate students who were

493
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 2: just coming out of school, they were really attached to

494
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: grades and kind of extrinsic motivation, the type of like

495
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,479
Speaker 2: rewards we get from from grades, but also from video games, right,

496
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: this idea that you play in order to level up,

497
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: so you're not like you never kind of have to

498
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 2: ask yourself internally like what am I doing and why

499
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: you're just like doing that so that I can get

500
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: to that, right, Like I've been told this is the goal,

501
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 2: So this is what I'm doing. I'm walking this many

502
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 2: steps to reach however many steps a day. I'm like,

503
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: everything is like extrinsically motivated. And so after ten years

504
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 2: of being a professor, I've kind of again like realized like, oh, actually,

505
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: I really know how to kind of fine tune this,

506
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: like getting people into a state where they can connect

507
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 2: with their intrinsic motivation to play, not just like you know,

508
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 2: play the way that we do with games and sports

509
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 2: and video games, but free play where it's open ended

510
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 2: and intrinsically motivated again, so that it's coming from like

511
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 2: what do I need? What am I interested in? That

512
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 2: may not be what I've been told I should be

513
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: interested in or as cool to be interested in. And

514
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 2: so yeah, so the book is setting out to kind

515
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 2: of help adults both understand and respect play, because if

516
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: we understand the importance of it, you know, we're much

517
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 2: more likely to then get on board with that. It's

518
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: not easy to embark upon the how. And then I

519
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 2: go a bit into the how, like how how we

520
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 2: can integrate it more into our lives in ways that

521
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 2: we probably already do but maybe just haven't really called play. Yeah,

522
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: so it's it's been interesting, the like I said, the

523
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: I heard from people who would compare their play either

524
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: to how they played as a child or how their

525
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: own children played, like people saying, you know, when I

526
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: try to play with my five year old, I got

527
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: to tell you, it's really boring, you know. And I

528
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: was like, of course it is. You don't expect your

529
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: ten year old to play the same as your five

530
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: year old. You're thirty, why would you play. Your play

531
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: is not going to look like your five year old's play,

532
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 2: So thank you, and yes you should keep playing with

533
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: your five year old, but don't expect their play to

534
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 2: be your play. Like you now get to find your

535
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: own play, you know, and it'll feel as good as

536
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 2: when you see your five year old playing. But let's

537
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: like reframe this idea that you have to play like

538
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 2: you did when you were five. You might that could

539
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: be that might be what's in you. But as an

540
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 2: adult developmentally, you have really different needs of your play

541
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: right now?

542
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you looked at what's happening in the Brian?

543
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: Whe am I applying us all the people? Have you

544
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: had a look at any of the year I saw it,

545
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: h year, I saw it around?

546
00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 3: Tell us about that.

547
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. So my co writer, Lydia Dinworth is a science

548
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: writer and and so she did a deep dive and

549
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 2: and we did find some research, but there is not

550
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: a lot of research into adults in play. I mentioned

551
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: Stuart Brown and he is a neuroscientist and has a

552
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: beautiful ted talk that is that I can't recommend highly enough.

553
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 3: And you know, we found again I'm rotting it down.

554
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Stuart Brown. Yeah, and and uh he also

555
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: has a book that I recommend that's about I think

556
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: it's called Serious Play and and yeah, he's been a

557
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: huge influence on my work. I had the opportunity of

558
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: talking to him recently and it was I cried, Yeah,

559
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: it was beautiful. He's amazing. But we did find, uh,

560
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: you know, company like Caltech Jet Propulsion Lab did some

561
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: research about their their engineers, you know, about what kind

562
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 2: of play like. They found that their most successful engineers

563
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: were those who tinkered as children, you know. So there's

564
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: been like correlations between who you are and as an

565
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 2: adult and what kind of play you had as a child,

566
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: And there's been a lot of there's some kind of

567
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: broad play studies that have been has been done on

568
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: lab rats, So we've learned quite a bit about play

569
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 2: through studying play and animals, which I think is kind

570
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: of generation agnostic most of the time, though it's applied

571
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 2: to children. So I'm interested and I hope that that,

572
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: like I mentioned, that maybe there'll be some kind of

573
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: play renaissance, that we can get some more research that

574
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: shows the benefits of play so that people we know

575
00:31:54,600 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 2: even more, and or we structure our lives and and

576
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 2: our culture to include out more, you know, and people

577
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 2: are able to play without fear of looking silly.

578
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: So if you had to do a sales pitch for

579
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: play and you were talking about features, advantages, benefits, as

580
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: we do when we're all selling anything, right, here's why

581
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: you should come to our workshop. Here is why you

582
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: should buy our car. Look at my new protein shape.

583
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: Forty grams of protein. So what are the I mean?

584
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: And again, this is just your experience and insight. What

585
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: are like the top three or four benefits for somebody

586
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: listening to this who's like forty five and they're like, yeah, great, cast,

587
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: that's cool, but you don't understand my life.

588
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got all this shit going on. It's all

589
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 3: right for you, professor. I mean, what are the benefits,

590
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 3: like as in.

591
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: Tangible outcomes that we might expect through starting to incorporate play.

592
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so, first of all, if if you're

593
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: in the ruts, like now is exactly the time to play.

594
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: It's essential for psychological, emotional, physical health, of course, and

595
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: those those are documented that there is research to show

596
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: that across the board that it has an immense benefits.

597
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 2: And I think even if it doesn't always seem intuitive

598
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 2: based on where we frame play in our lives, may

599
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 2: not be intuitive to play when things are hard or

600
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,239
Speaker 2: when you know you're feeling sad or you're you know,

601
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: that is in fact the time that you could benefit

602
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: from at most. It also shapes our identity and it

603
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 2: helps with adaptability. So playing an uncertainty is approaching uncertainty

604
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: with play. The more that we play, the more adaptable

605
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 2: we are. That's also proven and so kind of it

606
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 2: puts us in a state where we're more likely to

607
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: be comfortable with uncertainty and therefore be more adaptable if

608
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: if we play more, because then we're used to kind

609
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 2: of you know, doing or approaching things without expectation. For

610
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: first of all, I think expectation is a huge part

611
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: of what makes us hung up on what's you know,

612
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 2: uh an outcome that we want uh? And I think

613
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 2: that it's it's it's not about like, so I have

614
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,720
Speaker 2: to say as designer, I love design. I'll design anything

615
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: I love. I love designing, and and I've been approached

616
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: to design things for adults in play and and as

617
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: much as I would love to say like yeah, I'm

618
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,959
Speaker 2: a great designer, I'm the right person for the job.

619
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: It's not about materials and like, there's no golden key

620
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: of if you buy this thing, you as an adult

621
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,439
Speaker 2: will play right. It's a mindset which makes it way

622
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 2: more accessible to everybody. It's you, don't you. You can

623
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: shift how you're approaching you know, your daily life, how

624
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 2: you do the dishes, how you have set up your office,

625
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 2: how you walk your dog or go get groceries to

626
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: be more playful, and you will reap the benefits of

627
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: that play. So it's not about materials or environment or

628
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: like the ideal person. You know, having again, like having

629
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 2: a playful friend or having someone to play with always

630
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 2: helps a lot, But it really is it's a mindset

631
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: as much as anything else.

632
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would be fascinated to I love the thing

633
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: that you said about going into something even if it's

634
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: a challenge or a problem or a new thing or

635
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: an uncertain thing, with a playful mindset, because like, what's

636
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: happening in the mind is happening in the body. Right

637
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 1: If you think something terrible is happening, well, your nervous system,

638
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: your cardiovascular system, your endo crime system, everything believes you.

639
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: So now that theoretical construct has become a real experience

640
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: in your body, you know, and everything every kind of thought,

641
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: well not every thought, but you know the big things.

642
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: You know.

643
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 3: If I tell myself a story, and the story is that.

644
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: Right now is the best time I've ever had, and

645
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 1: I believe the story. I've got dopamine, I've got probably

646
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,879
Speaker 1: a bit of oxytocin because I think you're great, and

647
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, my blood pressures down and my

648
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: body's producing happy hormones, a bit of dopamine, but whatever.

649
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: You know, It's so funny how the way that we

650
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: think about things literally literally on an experiential level, if

651
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 1: not on an external physical level, but on an internal

652
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: experiential level for us becomes real and I think the

653
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: whole And for a lot of grown ups, I would think,

654
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: like how I use the word grown ups like I'm

655
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: a child. For a lot of grown ups, I almost

656
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: think it would feel to them counterintuitive, like how could

657
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 1: you even suggest I play? Do you not fucking see

658
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: what I'm in the middle of?

659
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 3: Do you ever come up against that?

660
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I even feel it, you know, Like I mentioned,

661
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 2: I moved in the process of moving, which I don't

662
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: know why we ever forget how much moving sucks. It

663
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 2: never doesn't suck, Like who cares how prepared you are?

664
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 2: Who cares how many days you have off? Like it

665
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 2: is always gonna sun and still you know, a couple

666
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: of days ago, I was just like chased by wolves.

667
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: I mean every part of my body, like you said,

668
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 2: everything in my system thought that I was like being

669
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 2: chas hunted, you know, And I like took a walk

670
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 2: and it wasn't enough. I was trying to like do

671
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 2: some yoga and it wasn't quite enough, and my partner

672
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 2: came home and put on some music and I like,

673
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 2: and they like kind of and I didn't want to dance.

674
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 2: They were like dancing around and I was like, I

675
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 2: hate you, Why are you making me do this? You know?

676
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: But it worked. We danced, and I just like, then

677
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,399
Speaker 2: I just started crying, like you know, then you just release, but.

678
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,439
Speaker 1: It's like you'll sign your partner, fuck your ideas, fuck

679
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: your dance, fuck you play no.

680
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 2: Also because I knew they were right, but I didn't

681
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 2: want so what you're saying where people will be resistant,

682
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: where it's like I want to, but I know I'm

683
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 2: frustrated because it's hard and I'm out of you know,

684
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: once you're in the when your system is stiff, like

685
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 2: that's not like a place that's easy to like play from.

686
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 2: That's why I think like my other like dabblings into

687
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: play weren't working. It needed to be like a full

688
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 2: body dance around loud music. The dog barked, you know,

689
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: in order to really like have me shake it off.

690
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 2: And then it just like I was so much better

691
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 2: afterward and was able to like attack some boxes and

692
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,959
Speaker 2: feel okay about having a home you know, like it's okay,

693
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: we do have a roof, we are safe, it is fine,

694
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, it's I think. And

695
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 2: again that's where a big part of the book I

696
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 2: spent just kind of continuing to reiterate this matters, like

697
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 2: it is proven this way. Like Lydia, my co writer,

698
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 2: my collaborator, she brought a really different perspective than I

699
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 2: do to the book, and in ways where I was like,

700
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 2: why do we need to prove that? You know, she

701
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: was like, we need to prove it. So at every

702
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 2: turn we did, we went in and we're like, believe us,

703
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 2: like you got to trust us. Here's here's some it's

704
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 2: not just us, here's some other people, and here's a

705
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 2: research study, here's some other evidence of this. And it's

706
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 2: really it was critical.

707
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: Especially now, especially now when people are lock show me

708
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: the data, show I mean the research.

709
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:57,959
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, so he's It's funny.

710
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: When I got told a few days Agollege chatting with you,

711
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: I had this idea about something I've thought about thirty years, right,

712
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: and I thought, I'm going to ask you about it,

713
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: and You're like, what is he going to say? So

714
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 1: I for me as an excise scientist. Right, I'm always

715
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:25,240
Speaker 1: thinking about you know, once people get to generally forty

716
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: five point fifty, there's a lot of variability around that,

717
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: but things can start to slide, you know, bone density,

718
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: muscle mass, balance, cardiovascular fitness, immune system like, general health wellness,

719
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: like basically how well their body's working. You know, so

720
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: and I and a big part of the physiological decline

721
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: that people see for much of the population, it's not

722
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: it's not because they've got to a chronological age where.

723
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 3: Everything just falls apart.

724
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: It's quite often because they it's a bit of that,

725
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 1: but it's more that they're just not doing anything. They're

726
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: not playing, they're not lifting weights, they're not moving, they're

727
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: not working against resistance. They get to a point where

728
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: they're not some of them not solving many problems. They're

729
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: not putting themselves in situations. I mean this with respect listeners.

730
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: They're not putting themselves in situations where they're being challenged physiologically, emotionally, psychologically.

731
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: But let's just stay with the body.

732
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: And you know, it's like I've worked with people in

733
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: their seventies who are stronger, fitter, more functional, better balance,

734
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 1: better muscular endurance, better overall strength, bone density, and function

735
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: than the typical forty year olds, right, people in their seventies.

736
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 3: And it's not because of their genetics.

737
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,720
Speaker 1: It's because of what they do, you know, It's because

738
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: of their choices and their behaviors and their lifestyle. Now, one,

739
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: we don't want to be obsessed with exercise, of course,

740
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: but also you can't get another body, right. And I

741
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: was thinking about, you know that famous George Bernard Shaw quote,

742
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: which I don't know if you like or hate, but

743
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 1: you know, we don't stop playing because we grow old.

744
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: We grow old because we stopped.

745
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 4: Playing, which I'd love your version of that, by the way,

746
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 4: But it's like, yeah, when you think about play, When

747
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 4: I think about play for grown ups, I think I would.

748
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: And I've thought of this for decades. If someone wants

749
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: to do it, have my idea. Feel free is building

750
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: literally playgrounds for old people or the equivalent, where obviously

751
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 1: it's got to be done the right way, but there

752
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: are things for people let's.

753
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 3: Say sixty plus.

754
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: I'm just plucking a number where the entire reason for

755
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: that facility or that resource is play. Nothing else but

756
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 1: apart from the psychological and emotional benefits of which you

757
00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: speak grasshopper. There are also lots and lots of physical benefits,

758
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: you know, balance, coordinations, strength, confidence, muscular endurance, bone density,

759
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: nervous system benefits. How good would it be cast to

760
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: build some fucking you know playgrounds for old people.

761
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: Well, so these do exist. You are correct, You are

762
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: correct that this is a great idea, and they do exist,

763
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: and they often are more well around the world. So

764
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: I think almost every playground manufacturer at this stage has

765
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 2: has some and it's the adult but they kind of

766
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 2: there sometimes are a little bit park course, are parkore inspired.

767
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 2: Other times it's like it's you know, there's like a

768
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 2: thing that's kind of an elliptical Yeah, yeah, yeah. And

769
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: I see these all over the world every country that

770
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: I've been to, and some more than others. I've seen

771
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 2: these around dotted around cities, and also in some countries

772
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 2: I see them being popular, like they're crowded all the time,

773
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: versus in the US, where they're usually a little dusty

774
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 2: because people like to do what they want to do

775
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,479
Speaker 2: it in the basement instead like, ah, nobody can see

776
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 2: me exercising. I don't know, I'm kind of weird about it.

777
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 2: But but the thing and I think they're wonderful from

778
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 2: a from a fitness and like you said, like the

779
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: physical benefits and if there's if there's other people and

780
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: you're meeting your neighbors, then it has the social benefits.

781
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: And so I think that they're great for that. Uh

782
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 2: And and I would just plant the seed that I

783
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: think that there's there's there are ways that also we

784
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: could kind of set up the systems that we support

785
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 2: our aging population in so that they included more play

786
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 2: and maybe overlap with younger kids. Right, Like I've I've

787
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 2: read about different countries where often they'll have like retirement

788
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 2: villas and kindergartens that overlap for a couple hours a day,

789
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 2: not for the sake of babysitting, for the sake of

790
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: like benefiting. It's mutually beneficial, and it shouldn't. It's not

791
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 2: rock rocket science, like that makes so much sense, right, Yeah, Yeah,

792
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 2: And I actually I just did I just did a

793
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 2: project with the A branch of the UN, the International

794
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 2: Labor Organization, the International Training Center of the ILO, which

795
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 2: is part of the UN, and we did this workshop

796
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 2: which was intergenerational play where we had people who were

797
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 2: between seventy and eighty who did this day long like

798
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 2: play project creative generative thing with eight year olds and

799
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 2: it was really incredible, and it was really specific about

800
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 2: kind of setting up this workshop so that there was

801
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 2: no expert right, Like I think when we're when a

802
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 2: young person is working with somebody older, it's easy for

803
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 2: everybody to kind of slip into a hierarchy of like, ah,

804
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 2: now I'm teaching you, or like oh, this is the

805
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 2: drawing exercise, so the kid is going to take the leader, like, oh,

806
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: this involves information, so now the old person is the boss,

807
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 2: you know, And so I set it up really carefully

808
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 2: so that there was never kind of a hierarchy, and

809
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 2: then they had to really really kind of work together

810
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 2: and communicate and try to learn each other. Yes, so

811
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 2: I think that that's also something where like the cognitive

812
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 2: benefits of playing together could be less physical. But of course,

813
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 2: like you know, they were moving around and they wound

814
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: up doing these performances that did involve dancing and you

815
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 2: know a lot of pretend play. But yeah, again it's

816
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 2: like there's there's there are ways that that when it's

817
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: open ended or when it's free play, like as humans,

818
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: like we're going to want to move our bodies, right,

819
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 2: it'll happen if we let it. But yes, I love

820
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 2: your thinking and and those do exist. And so does

821
00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: that mean that you don't have any in Australia You've not.

822
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 3: Seen I know exactly what you're talking. No, we do

823
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 3: have those.

824
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: For me, they're more like they're like, yeah we have those.

825
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: Where's one five kilometers from or a few miles from

826
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 1: where I am. Now there's a bunch, but they are

827
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: they're like exercise stations. They're like workout whereas I'm literally

828
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 1: talking about play, I'm literally.

829
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 2: Talking about I'm talking.

830
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: About swings, swings, monkey bars. I'm talking about like a

831
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: child's playground built more suitably for adults, rather than workout

832
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: stations along the foreshore, which we have here in Melbourne.

833
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, all right, so we've got to wind up.

834
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: But I've got a couple of questions I want to

835
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: run by you. I don't know what my question is,

836
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,399
Speaker 1: but I just want you to riff on think out

837
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: loud for us on computer games or like screens like

838
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: play but involved computeed So where there's a you know, yeah,

839
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: you know there's a kid sitting up first person shoot

840
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,959
Speaker 1: or whatever that you thought around.

841
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 2: That, Yeah, I mean I think that we are not

842
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 2: doing children or ourselves any favors by making those as

843
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 2: big a part of their lives as of all of

844
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 2: our lives as they are. Yes, and I think that

845
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 2: there are ways that screens and digital technology are part

846
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 2: of our lives and need to be part of our lives.

847
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 2: I don't think that that's necessarily where we need to

848
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 2: be playing in particular, Like we're so separated from our bodies,

849
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 2: so the types of play that happen when you're that

850
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 2: disconnected from your body, and like, you know, we read

851
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 2: about that that they for the competitions, like they don't

852
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,479
Speaker 2: go to the bathroom for eight hours and they eat

853
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 2: weird chips or protein blobs in order to sustain. Like

854
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 2: that's not it's not good for anyone, right, And so yeah,

855
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 2: I as much as possible, And I know that it's hard,

856
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 2: but like I try to get parents to really like

857
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: like just kick them outside if you can, and or

858
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 2: give them a box, Like there's so many other ways

859
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,839
Speaker 2: that kids can play. And it'll be hard at first,

860
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 2: but once they have the muscle, once kids like are

861
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 2: back in touch with what they want to do, how

862
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 2: they might want to play, they will stay off the

863
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:27,760
Speaker 2: screen and so, and you asked about the slogan based

864
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 2: on George Bernard Shaw's that quote, and I have a

865
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 2: couple of different versions, and one is easy is boring

866
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 2: because we often think that with children, especially that the

867
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 2: play should be right, it's so easy to use. And

868
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, then it's boring, like that's not going

869
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 2: to challenge. Then nobody grows from something that's easy, like them,

870
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 2: let them do something hard, you know. So similarly, I

871
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 2: try to apply that to parents who are weaning their

872
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:02,439
Speaker 2: children off of digital devices, or adults even who are like, well,

873
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 2: but I'm kind of uncomfortable dancing. I'm uncomfortable, you know,

874
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,760
Speaker 2: doing that in public. And it's thinking, well, keep pushing yourself,

875
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 2: like it'll be worth it.

876
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

877
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 1: My last one, I just want to chat a little

878
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: bit about I'm just going to say the book again everyone,

879
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: just because I can play for how play shift now

880
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: thinking inspires connection and sparks creativity. Cass Holman, I'm interested

881
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 1: in like I'm not, even though I'm stumbling towards the

882
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 1: finish line in my PhD.

883
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 3: I'm not.

884
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: I don't call myself an academic like I'm a pro academic.

885
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: I'm much more like I'm not even good at academic,

886
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: Like I'm okay if I'm fascinated. I'm fascinated in what

887
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: with what I'm researching and my studies and.

888
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 3: The studies that I've run and all of that. So

889
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 3: that kind of makes it easy for me.

890
00:50:55,560 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: But but I think, and again, I love teachers. I

891
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 1: understand how hard the job is. I understand having thirty

892
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 1: different kids in a classroom with different needs, personalities, predispositions is.

893
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 3: An impossible task. But cass, what are.

894
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 1: Your thoughts around integrating you know, play and learning. I

895
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 1: just feel like every kids have different learning styles, and

896
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 1: some learn better moving. Some are built for sitting at

897
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 1: desk and reading a book. I am not built first

898
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: I imagine you're not. I don't know, but me sitting

899
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: and at me trying to just read something and absorb it,

900
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:42,879
Speaker 1: I might as well just punch myself in the face, right.

901
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 1: I need to figure out how the fuck do I

902
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: consume this? How do I remember it, retain it, understand it,

903
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: and then operationalize it. And it's not by sitting at

904
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 1: reading a book. So what are your thoughts around that?

905
00:51:56,719 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a real opening for multiply in learning.

906
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, rigamajig is for you. So one of my

907
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 2: designs is called rigamajig and it's a it's a giant,

908
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 2: huge scale building kit that does just that. And the

909
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 2: thing that's interesting is that so it's like a imagine

910
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 2: an erector set but huge.

911
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: Everybody have a lot, Yeah, tell everyone what's what It's

912
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: called rigamajig.

913
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 3: R I G A M A j I G got website.

914
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. But what's what's amazing is we spend so much

915
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 2: time kind of trying to justify, like, here's all that,

916
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 2: and there was a research study to prove that rigamajig

917
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 2: worked for this and that. But it's like if you

918
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 2: see kids playing with it, you know, they're learning math,

919
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 2: they're learning like all of the things, but they're moving

920
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 2: their bodies around while they're doing it. So it's an

921
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 2: embodied learning. That is, it's so much richer than what

922
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 2: they would learn by looking at diagrams in a book,

923
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 2: you know, or so not not everything can be can

924
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 2: be you know, it's experiential learning, and it's like constructivist learning.

925
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: And of course in play, what we also see is

926
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 2: that kids like who wouldn't usually play together or aren't

927
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,919
Speaker 2: necessarily friends wind up working together because they need each other, right,

928
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 2: and that is at the core of like why I

929
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 2: do what I do. My other slogan is if we

930
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 2: can play together, we can live together.

931
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 3: Wow.

932
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 2: Wow, And it's very true. It's very true. And I

933
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 2: would love to figure out a way to get a

934
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 2: lot more adults who aren't usually maybe inclined to hang

935
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 2: out together, to like play together because there's and it

936
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 2: happens here in you know, I live across the street

937
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 2: from a playground that has a lot of basketball courts,

938
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 2: and so there are a lot of adults sharing space

939
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 2: and conflict resolution in every form, and it's beautiful. It's

940
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 2: a little tense at times, but it happens because they

941
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 2: all want to get on with the game, right, so

942
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 2: they're incentivized to resolve the conflict so that you can

943
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 2: move on. And it it doesn't happen in other places,

944
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 2: Like it's certainly not happening in a lot of the

945
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 2: other places where we're having this global discourse between with

946
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 2: different opinions, right, So yeah, I think that I think

947
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 2: absolutely playful learning, especially for kids also for adults, is

948
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 2: like the ideal way to learn with your entire self

949
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 2: present your body is getting it. Your mind, your collaborative muscles,

950
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 2: your emotions are there when you're doing it in play,

951
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:35,959
Speaker 2: So playful learning out of the way.

952
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: Last question, what's that burning thing in the back of

953
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 1: your mind that you want to do but create?

954
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 3: Next? What's that? What's the next big? Maybe it's top secret,

955
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 3: maybe it's a NASA experiment. But what's the no, what's what?

956
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 2: No? I love? Yeah, yeah, no it's not. It's maybe

957
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 2: a secret, not a secret. But I I love summer camp.

958
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 2: I loved camp as a kid. When I was teaching

959
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 2: at risdy Is, the art school in Rhode Island I

960
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 2: had I lived at. It was a retired summer camp

961
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:12,320
Speaker 2: that was kind of turned into a living house, but

962
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 2: the property was felt very camp like, and I think

963
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 2: I would love to eventually have a summer camp. Maybe

964
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 2: it's an adult summer camp. I don't know.

965
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that'd be amazing.

966
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just my favorite vibe.

967
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't mind a camp myself. Well, congrats.

968
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: The book Last Time is called Playful to help play

969
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 1: shift our thinking, inspires connection, and sparks creativity. Congratulations, you

970
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: you're doing a good job.

971
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 3: I love how you think. I love your energy.

972
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:46,839
Speaker 1: I would like to play with you one time in

973
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: the physical world, through it dimensional.

974
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know what we'd play, but

975
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 3: it'd be fun.

976
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:56,439
Speaker 1: We'd have some fun, absolutely, Maybe maybe there'd be no fun,

977
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 1: Maybe we'd just.

978
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure we'd get very serious about it.

979
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would definitely win a cast. We'll say goodbye

980
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 1: off here but for the minute. Thanks so much for

981
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 1: being on the You project.

982
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 2: Thank you, Craig. It's been great.