1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: Susanne Armstrong was found with something like twenty six I 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: think stab wounds and her friend Susan Bartlett was found 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,239 Speaker 1: with more than fifty stab wounds. It was obviously a 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: frenzied killing and the killer had obviously gone crazy with 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: a large bladed knife. There it is the first big 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: break in a double murder that has haunted Australia and 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: particularly Victoria, particularly Melbourne for forty seven years. I'm Andrew Rule. 8 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: This is Life and Crimes. As we sit here recording 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: this podcast, it is just five days since one of 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:47,919 Speaker 1: Australia's biggest ever crime stories took a dramatic new twist. That, 11 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: of course, is the Easy Street cold case. Easy Street 12 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: is well known to probably all our listeners, particularly if 13 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: they are over a certain age. Happened in nineteen seventy seven. 14 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: Two young women living in a rented house in Collingwood 15 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: in Easy Street, Collingwood were stabbed to death one night 16 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: in January nineteen seventy seven. In fact, it was the 17 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: night of January the tenth, which I think was a Monday. 18 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: It was hot weather. It was a very hot summer. 19 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: The two sus as they were known, they were old 20 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: friends from the Banella, Euroa area they'd grown up in 21 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: the country. One was Suzanne Armstrong, Little Sue as people 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: called hers. She was the smaller and darker of the pear, 23 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: and the other one was Big Sue. That was Susan Bartlett, 24 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: who actually was a teacher, a secondary school teacher, formerly 25 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: at Broadford High School north of Melbourne, but at this time, 26 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: at the time of her murder, she was a teacher 27 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: at Collingwood High They hadn't been in the house very long. 28 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: They'd only been in there a matter of weeks. Suzanne 29 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: Armstrong had been away for a couple of years. These 30 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: girls were in their late twenties I think twenty seven 31 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: one twenty eight, similar age. Susan Armstrong had spent a 32 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: fair bit of time overseas, I think up to something 33 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: like two years, and in that trip she had stayed 34 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: in Greece, and she had stayed for quite a while, 35 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: many months on the Greek island of Naxos, and there 36 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: she had formed a relationship with a handsome young fisherman 37 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: and she planned to marry that guy, and they bought 38 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: rings and did all that sort of stuff. And one 39 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: of the reasons that they planned to marry was that 40 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: Susan Armstrong had become pregnant with her little boy, Gregory, 41 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: and Gregory was born in Greece, in I think at Naxos, 42 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: but certainly in Greece. But there were great difficulties for 43 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: Susan Armstrong arranging to marry a Greek national priests were 44 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: a problem, and the authorities were a problem with citizenship 45 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: papers and all sorts of things. And in the end 46 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: Suzanne thought it was all too hard, and she said 47 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: to her fiance or the father of her baby boy, 48 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to go home for a while and we'll 49 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: meet up later and we might be able to get 50 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: married later on. I'm not sure if she meant in 51 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: Australia or in Greece, but the reality was she came 52 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: home to Melbourne and moved into her house in Collingwood 53 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: with her little boy and with her old friend, her 54 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: old school friend, Susan Bartlett. And so that is the 55 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: background to this story. It's an interesting bit of background 56 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: Suzanne Armstrong's trip to Greece and her relationship with a 57 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: Greek fellow, because, as it turns out, forty seven years later, 58 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: there is a Greek connection. Probably by chance, you would think, 59 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything sinister about that. The big 60 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: news as we record this podcast is of course that 61 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: a week ago authorities in Rome in Italy arrested on 62 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: behalf of the Australian police a Greek national called Perry 63 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: Korumblis now Perry Korumbliss is a dual citizen. He lived 64 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: in Australia in Melbourne as a young man, as a 65 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: child and a young man before moving back to Greece 66 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: where he apparently he and his brother one of his 67 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: brothers looked after or lived with their aged parents. And 68 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: this is an interesting set of events and a set 69 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: of events that will be discussed and pulled apart, probably 70 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: in a court of law, about the reasons for Perry 71 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: going back to Greece. It's tempting to say that no 72 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: one had ever heard of Perry Karumblis until this week, 73 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: but the reality is that he had been heard of 74 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: because back in nineteen seventy seven, after these two young 75 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: women were murdered after their bodies were found butchered in 76 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: their house in Collingwood, after Suzanne Armstrong was found with 77 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: something like twenty six I think stab wounds and her 78 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: friend Susan Bartlett was found with more than fifty stab wounds. 79 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: It was obviously a frenzied killing, and the killer had 80 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: obviously gone crazy with a large bladed knife. Looking back 81 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: over all these years, we think, oh, well, the police 82 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: never really came up with anybody or anything to do 83 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: with this murder. Well, in a sense, that's true. But 84 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: of course at the time of the murder and in 85 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: the days and weeks after the murders, the police were 86 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: looking very hard for anybody who might throw some light 87 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: on it, and there were a lot of names thrown around. 88 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: There would have been people giving anonymous hips and dobbing 89 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: in the guy down the road or the guy that 90 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: looked funny at the train station or whatever. As often 91 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: happens with high profile murders, it's not so much a 92 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: case of police not getting enough information from the public 93 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: or enough tip offs. They get too many. They get 94 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: swamped with stuff, most of which is obviously white noise. 95 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: It's just assumptions and speculations and rumors and gossip and 96 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: all the rest of it. And now, in that period, 97 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: and this is only a matter of about a week 98 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: after those murders, a young guy from Collingwood known by 99 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: the local police as a naughty boy. He had a 100 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,799 Speaker 1: bit of form and was one of the young fellas 101 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: that Collingwood police kept an eye on. This young bloke 102 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: was pulled up in a car by a young uniform 103 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: policeman and that young uniform policeman was called Ron Iddle's 104 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: and of course ron Itodles would later become well known 105 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: in Melbourne and in Victoria as a homicide squad detective. 106 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: But at this stage he's a very young copper in uniform. 107 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: But he was always pretty keen and on the ball. 108 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: And he saw this young Greeg bloke, Perry Krumblis, driving 109 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: around and he pulled him up, as you know coppers do. 110 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: And he pulled this guy up and said where you're going, Perry, 111 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: and what are you up to? And can you give 112 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: me the case to the boot? And he happens a 113 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: boot and he checks the boot, which is what good 114 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: police work is all about. Right down. You know who 115 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: you pulled over, what they're driving, all the details and 116 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: searched the car. See what's in there? Is there a 117 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: body in the boot, Is there a weapon? Is there 118 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: stolen goods? It's routine stuff in the boot. There is 119 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: a large bladed knife in a leather scabbard. It seemed 120 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: that there might have been a trace of blood still 121 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: on it somewhere. But anyway, the young Ron Eddles, who 122 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: is of course a copper in uniform and very junior, 123 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: all he can really do with it is hand the 124 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: young fellow's name, Perry Karumbliss real name, real first name, 125 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: will be rather more involved than Perry. It might be 126 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: Pericles possibly, or Periclart's. But he can hand the name 127 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: and date of birth and address to the homicide squad 128 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: along with the knife, which is what he did. And 129 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: so this fellow, Perry Karumblis, his name goes on a 130 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: list along with a lot of other names, essentially for 131 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: the homicide squad to look at. Now I understand, I 132 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: think this to be true, but I can't prove it. 133 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: But I understand that Perry Karumblis was picked up in 134 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: the subsequent days by the homicide squad and he was 135 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 1: questioned very intensely and intensively and robustly, as happened back 136 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: in those days, and he was asked about his movements 137 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: on the night of the murder and what he was 138 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: up to. And you know, how come he's going around 139 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 1: with a knife and the boot and so on and 140 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: so forth. His story then, and his story to Ron Iddall's, 141 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: his story to the homicide squad, and no doubt his 142 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 1: story today and tomorrow and next week and next month 143 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: and next year when he appears in court in Melbourne, 144 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: is that he found the knife. It wasn't his knife 145 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: that he picked it up. Oh, someone near the railway tracks, 146 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: something to do with the footpath that leads over the 147 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: Punt Road in those days from one side of Collingwood 148 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: over to the Victoria Park side, and that it looked 149 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: as if somebody had tossed it out and left it there, 150 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: and he found it and put it in the boot 151 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: of his car because he wasn't one to waste a 152 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: good knife sort of thing. Now, that was his story 153 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: and apparently he was sticking to it. That's fine. But 154 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: when the inquest comes around. In those days, in quests 155 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: came up a bit sooner than they do now. So 156 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: these young women were killed in January. Their inquest is 157 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: in July of the same year, so it's only six 158 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 1: months later. And when that inquest comes up in front 159 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: of mister Pasco sm the name of Perry Karumblis, he's raised. 160 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: He's raised as one of presumably several people who would 161 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: be of some interest to check out whether they had 162 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: questions to answer. Now, from looking at the files and 163 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: looking at the contemporary stories, it would appear that Perry 164 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: Karumblus did not appear at the coroner's inquest, and it 165 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: would appear that the police version of this is though 166 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: he's gone into smoke, he's disappeared so effectively the authorities 167 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: at that time did not consider him sufficiently of interest 168 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: as a potential murder suspect to pursue him then, and 169 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: to some extent, Perry Crumblas was written out of this 170 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: case back in nineteen seventy seven for reasons that I 171 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: don't fully understand, except probably this that in the end 172 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: they didn't have anything to go on except he had 173 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: been pulled up with a knife in the boot. Well, 174 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: he wouldn't be the only fellow in Collingwood with a knife, 175 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: honor about his person, And in those days before DNA, 176 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: this is you know, we're talking two decades before DNA 177 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: became a real thing, they had no real way of 178 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: connecting that knife with any particular offense, and so his 179 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: name just lapsed into the void, along with others Also, 180 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: I have to say, I think the police became pretty 181 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: keen on the idea, and this is only natural, pretty 182 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: keen on the idea that most murders are close the home, 183 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: that most murders are committed by somebody well known to 184 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: the victims, and eight out of ten times that is true. 185 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: And the police had a small gas board of potential 186 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: persons of interest to look at her were a bit 187 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: closer to home than Perry Kurumblas, such as Susanne Armstrong's 188 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: new boyfriend who was a shearer called Barry Woodard from 189 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: Euroa Way, and Barry's brother Henry, and a string of 190 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: other people who had known either or both of those 191 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: young women, you know, former boyfriend's, former friends, visitors that 192 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: had dropped in there and so on. And the police 193 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: had several names. Indeed, they ended up with a shortlist 194 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: of eight names, which they were pretty keen on. And 195 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: I think the police formed the view early on that 196 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: the killer is one of our shortlist of eight and 197 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 1: they didn't really look further than that. And what happened 198 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: here was that when DNA, which was science fiction back 199 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: in the seventies, when DNA became a usable investigative tool, 200 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: in the nineties, they said hooray for DNA and they 201 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: got their short list of eight suspects, and they rattled 202 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: around Victoria and Australia and even sent detectives to England 203 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: to interview one fellow to get DNA samples to match 204 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: up against the sample that they had. And the sample 205 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: they had was taken from on or near Susan Armstrong's body. 206 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: Susann Armstrong, not to put too fine a point on it, 207 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: had been raped, probably after her death, and so there 208 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: was a seaman sample that the police could they did 209 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: save and was able to be used for DNA purposes 210 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: more than twenty years later. And so armed with this, 211 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: the police had detectives going around testing their short list 212 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: of eight people. Long story short, they didn't get a hit. 213 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: None of these matched up, and so there they were 214 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight, what twenty one years after the murders, 215 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: without a feather to fly with, they tested their no result. Now, 216 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: in a perfect world, which it's not. In a perfect world, 217 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: you'd think they'd expand the list and look further. They'd 218 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: go wider ripples, ever, widening circle of suspects, and you 219 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: would think they would have looked through whatever records they had, 220 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: which I think were sketchy, but they did exist. From 221 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: the file there at all file which was a pretty 222 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: small file on the murder, but also contemporary logbooks and 223 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: running sheets of the local police around Collingwood, Fitzroy, Carlton, 224 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: the inner suburbs, to see who else was around and about, 225 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: and you know, who was related, who was a friend, 226 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: who was a friend of a friend, all that stuff, 227 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: the neighbors, the people that lived in the street, who 228 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: was you know, the guy working on the roof two 229 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: doors down, who was the brick layer laying bricks one 230 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: hundred meters away? All those things that did not happen. 231 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: That did not happen in the nineties, It did not 232 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: happen in the next ten years. It wasn't until around 233 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: something like two thousand and sixteen or thereabouts that the 234 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: homicide squad or the crime department had one of its 235 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: periodic bursts of housekeeping and decided that they should review 236 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: some of their outstanding cold cases. And the Easy Street 237 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: case was handed to a detective to review, and that 238 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: detective carefully went through the files and through all those 239 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: things I said, presumably the running sheets and all the 240 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: rest of it and was able to compile a long list. Now, 241 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: this long list I think was something like forty one 242 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: dead people and about ninety live ones, so the total 243 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: list was one hundred and thirty one. And even with 244 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: dead people, they could get DNA samples from relatives, close 245 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: relatives of the dead person of interest. So if Joe 246 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: Blogs is a person of interest, he's dead, we get 247 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: his brother or his son or somebody like that and 248 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: test that person. If they're still alive, you test the 249 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: suspect you love, the one you're with. And that is 250 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: what they did. And so in around twenty sixteen and 251 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: seventeen police went around and they slowly ticked off the 252 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: list ninety live, forty one dead. Test here, test here, 253 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: test here, asking people to you know, little saliva test 254 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: or whatever it was. Well, that's fine, of course. The 255 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: good thing about asking people for a DNA sample is 256 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: that anybody that refuses you becomes instantly more interesting. Their 257 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: reaction becomes interesting. If they've got absolutely nothing to hide, 258 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: their relax, They don't care. They just do it, except 259 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: for some cranks who just are against it non principle, 260 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: of course, But most people, if they're innocent, they just 261 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: hand it over and that's that. But if you run 262 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: against someone who gets nervy and twitchy and defensive and 263 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: doesn't want to do it straight away, they become the 264 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: targets of more intensive investigation. And one of the people 265 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: on the list was I'll mate Perry Karumblis. This is 266 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: in twenty and seventeen in Melbourne and Perry Karumblis at 267 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: this stage is about fifty nine years old. He's a wiry, 268 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: reasonably fit looking, half tough looking bloke who works in 269 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: the wrought iron business. I think he had his own 270 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: business out at dandy On. I think he'd probably been 271 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: living around Bulleen. It's for a large part of the 272 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: intervening decades, and I think after he's misspent youth, he'd 273 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: stayed out of trouble apparently for the intervening years and 274 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: was a relatively hard working bloke. I think he might 275 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: have had a bit of an interesting motorbikes and that 276 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. Certainly he had a couple of brothers 277 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: that other people got to know. One was called Andy, 278 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: his real name, of course in the Greek was Andreas, 279 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: and he had another brother who's called Tony, who still 280 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: lives in Melbourne. I think he might have an antique 281 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: store or something like that. So these brothers were living 282 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: along in Melbourne. Their parents had returned to Greece. Now 283 00:18:54,040 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: this is intriguing and interesting. It's not necessarily damning, but 284 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: it is intriguing. To be fair, A lot of people 285 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: who migrated from Greece to Australia and to Canada after 286 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: spending x twenty years, twenty five years, whatever working in 287 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: their new country, saved up money and qualified for pensions 288 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: in some cases and superannuation, whatever it might be, and 289 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: they moved back to their home country, to Greece. Because 290 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: back there often they would have inherited a cheap property 291 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: in a village somewhere where they could go back to. 292 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: It would cost them nothing or next to it, and 293 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: the money that they could take back with them from 294 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: Australia or Canada set them up pretty well in Greece. 295 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: And I know this is true because I know traveling 296 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: in Greece in the eighties and more recently, it was 297 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: common to find people, even in out of the way places, 298 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: who said, oh, you're Australian, how's Collingwood going? And you know, 299 00:19:58,280 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: I used to have a holden when I worked in 300 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: Melbourne and all this stuff. It was a big thing. 301 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: Every village had repatriated locals who had worked for many 302 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: years in Australia and in Canada. And so the fact 303 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: that Perry Crumblus's parents had gone back to Greece was 304 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: not in itself that significant or that suspicious. But the 305 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: timing of it is interesting because in July of nineteen 306 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: seventy seven, the inquest, as we said, was held into 307 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: the deaths of the two sous Armstrong and Bartlap. That 308 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: same month, the Karumblis family that has seen them, mister 309 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: and missus, they sell their house in Bendigo Street in Collingwood. 310 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: They move out of Collingwood and they disappear from the 311 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: electoral role and apparently they go back to Greece. Now 312 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: whether they went back to Greece, you know, in that 313 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: July or was that year or whatever, but they got 314 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: rid of their house in Collingwood and they left. Now, 315 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: this is the same month when their son is named, 316 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,400 Speaker 1: their son, Perry is named in newspaper reports and other 317 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: things as a person of interest or a witness or 318 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: whatever in this terrible murder case. And looking back on 319 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: it with the wisdom of hindsight, it does appear that 320 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: they might have wanted to not be around for too 321 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: much longer. It might have just prompted them to act 322 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: on an impulse to go home anyway, And so they did. 323 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: And it's true that their son Andreas Andy went back 324 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: over there with them, and we should not read anything 325 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: into that, because you know, he just went back to 326 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: the land of his birth with his parents and they 327 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: lived happily. Ever after. Perry did not go back. Perry 328 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: stayed working in Australia his other brother Tony, until the 329 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: police came knocking in twenty seventeen saying any chance of 330 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: a DNA test. Apparently, and we have to be careful here, 331 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 1: it would appear that he wasn't happy to provide a 332 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: DNA test, And it would appear that he left Australia 333 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: soon afterwards, saying he was going back to Greece for 334 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: a holiday. Well, that was fine. He went to Greece 335 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: for holiday, which he may well have done every second 336 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: year for years. But he did not return from Greece 337 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: after his holiday. The other holidays that he may well 338 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: have taken, he'd stay there for three weeks or six 339 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: weeks or whatever and come back. Not this time. He 340 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: stayed there. Now that intrigued the police a lot. And 341 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: we know it intrigued the police a lot because some 342 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: six or seven years ago when that happened, there was 343 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: a small leak, probably from homicide squad or from perhaps 344 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: lawyers associated with extradition matters. It doesn't matter who, but 345 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: someone somewhere leaked something back then, because what we know 346 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: is that a former lawyer well known around Melbourne, very 347 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: well known around Melbourne. His former lawyer went along and 348 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: boozy lunch sometime around that time in twenty seventeen. And 349 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: after that nunch he came out and he made a 350 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: phone call to a friend of his who was a 351 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 1: crime reporter, and he told that person he said, they're 352 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: looking at someone over Easy Street. You know, they're looking 353 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: at somebody. Was suggested it, and that reporter contacted the 354 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: homicide squad and said, this is leaked. You know it's leaking. 355 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: You better tell me what it's all about, and I'll 356 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: keep it under my hat. I have to say, I 357 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: am not that reporter with someone else, And the homicide 358 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: squad obviously had its hand forced a little bit and said, yeah, 359 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: well it's right, we are looking at somebody. But you 360 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: just have to keep it quiet, because that's the way 361 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: it is. We just have to wait our chance. And 362 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: for more than six years they waited their chance. And 363 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 1: what they mean by that is that the Greek laws 364 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: are such that you just can't send Australian police into 365 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: Greece to extract a Greek citizen, which is what Perry 366 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: Karumblis was. He was a dual citizen, but as a 367 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: Greek citizen, he had certain rights as a Greek citizen. 368 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: I don't think he could be arrested for an alleged 369 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: crime that have been committed more than something like twenty 370 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: years earlier. I have read various versions of this, but 371 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: would appear that if it was more than twenty years, 372 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: they don't act on it. So the Australian police were 373 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: hobbled by the Greek laws, and they realized that they 374 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: had to sit quietly and say nothing and do nothing 375 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: and alarm no one and hope that Perry Krumblis one 376 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: day grew complacent enough to travel outside Greece to somewhere 377 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: that had an extradition treaty with Australia. And so the 378 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: Australian police circulated around the world what can be called 379 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: an Interpol wanted notice, and that meant that if this 380 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: man Kurumblis, traveled outside Greece, that his presence would automatically 381 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: be flagged when his passport went through another country's border. 382 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: And that's what happened last week. As we're sitting here, 383 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: last week in late September, he is arrested at the 384 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: main airport in Rome because he was obviously attempting to 385 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: cross the border. He's either just flown in. I presume 386 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: he'd just flown into Rome, or perhaps he was just 387 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: flying out, doesn't matter which. They grabbed him. They contacted 388 00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: the Australian police and there it is the first big 389 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: break in a double murder that has haunted Australia and 390 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: particularly Victoria and particularly Melbourne for forty seven years. Now. 391 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: We must emphasize that this is not solved. You know, 392 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: there's no proof that this man did these murders. It's 393 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: just that this is the first actual arrest over these murders. 394 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: And for the first time the friends and family, the 395 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: few that are left of the dead women have actually 396 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: seen some action from the authorities, because before this, for 397 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: effectively a lifetime, there's just been in this appalling silence. 398 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: It appears that whoever did it just walked out on 399 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: the street and vanished. And so we're left now to 400 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: wait until Perry Columbus returns to Australia. The latest news 401 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: is that he's willing to be extradited. He's not going 402 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: to fight extradition. Apparently that's probably wise in some respects, 403 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: because he might have been advised that ultimately extradition will happen, 404 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: and that it might be more comfortable for him to 405 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 1: let it happen, you know, sooner rather than later. Because 406 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: I imagine that the Regina Colely pronunciation is difficult. But 407 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: Regina Coaling Prison in Rome is not a good place 408 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: or a nice place to be. It'll be crowded, it'll 409 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: be dirty, it'll be nasty, there'll be a lot of 410 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: bad people there. He's not even you know, he's not 411 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: in Greece, where he would know people or be able 412 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: to speak the language and all the rest of it. 413 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: In Rome, he would have no pool, he'd have no advantages, 414 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: and he might have some disadvantages. It would probably seem 415 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: to him and to his family and to his lawyers 416 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: that he would be better off back in Australia in 417 00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: the relative security and comfort of the remand in Melbourne 418 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: to face the next episode of this unfolding story. In fact, 419 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: I suppose it's conceivable that if he put up enough money, 420 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: enough collateral, that he might even be able to get bail. 421 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: But I imagine that would only be if he could 422 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 1: put up millions of dollars of property or whatever, which 423 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: will be forfeited if he didn't appear. And so at 424 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: this point we're waiting for him to get back, and 425 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: then we're waiting to see how soon it is that 426 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: the wheels of justice turn for Perry Karumblus, the accused 427 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: in the haunting case of the Easy Street murders. How 428 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: rusted on listeners will know that we've mentioned Easy Street before, 429 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: and they're right. There is that episode the Horror at 430 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: Easy Street. There's also returning to Easy Street where we 431 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: spoke to the author Helen Thomas about her book which 432 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: is called Murder on Easy Street. And we also spoke 433 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: to Helen Thomas another time about a separate but linked 434 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: story in some ways, and that is Searching for Julianne. 435 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: That is about the murder of Julianne Garcia Salai in 436 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five. They're all available on your podcast feed. 437 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. 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