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Speaker 2: Our culture doesn't acknowledge how difficult we all relationships are,
Speaker 2: but that's not what we're taught. We're taught that a
Speaker 2: great relationship is all harmony. A great sex life is
Speaker 2: what you had the first weeks of Europe. A great
Speaker 2: body is what a seventeen year old you are talking
Speaker 2: to the man who coined the phrase normal marital hatred.
Speaker 2: No one has ever asked me what I mean.
Speaker 1: By that Welcome to the Things you Can't Unhear podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm your host Maritza Barone. Get ready to hear moments
Speaker 1: that will help you to see the world differently and
Speaker 1: inspire you to become the happiest, healthiest, and kindest version
Speaker 1: of you. We don't usually think relationships fall apart because
Speaker 1: of one big moment. More often, it's a slow drift,
Speaker 1: small disconnections that build over time, the conversations we stop having,
Speaker 1: the resentment we don't address, and the misunderstandings we move
Speaker 1: past without really repairing. Whether you're dating, in a long
Speaker 1: term partnership, or married, or somewhere in between, most people
Speaker 1: don't sit out to lose closeness, which just happens quietly.
Speaker 1: Where life gets busy, stress builds, a communication starts to
Speaker 1: break down. So what actually causes that shift from connection
Speaker 1: to distance and why does so many of us struggle
Speaker 1: to repair it once it starts. Today's guest is one
Speaker 1: of the most influential voices.
Speaker 3: In modern relationship therapy.
Speaker 4: Perry Reel is a best selling author, family therapist, and
Speaker 4: the creator of Relational life Therapy, a groundbreaking approach that
Speaker 4: has helped thousands of couples move from conflict and disconnection
Speaker 4: back into real, accountable, emotionally honest connection. Known for being direct, insightful,
Speaker 4: and deeply human in his work, Terry has spent decades
Speaker 4: sitting with couples on the edge of breakdown and showing
Speaker 4: them what it actually takes to repair love and not
Speaker 4: just talk about it. He is here today to unpack
Speaker 4: my relationships, fall the art, and what it really takes
Speaker 4: to build ones at last, Terry Real, Welcome to the
Speaker 4: Things you Can On Here podcast.
Speaker 3: It's so nice to have you.
Speaker 2: Thank you from the other side of the world. It's
Speaker 2: great to be in conversation with you.
Speaker 3: I just mentioned to you I woke up very early
Speaker 3: for this interview.
Speaker 1: And went outside and looked at the sky, and I
Speaker 1: thought about how opposite sides of the world's were in
Speaker 1: and about to have this amazing conversation to share with
Speaker 1: everyone out there today. It is quite fascinating still that
Speaker 1: we can connect in this way from opposite sides of
Speaker 1: the globe.
Speaker 3: Isn't it?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: It is now. I mentioned to you.
Speaker 1: That podcast obviously, it's called Things you Can't Unhear, and
Speaker 1: I want to start with that today. Actually, Terry, I
Speaker 1: want you to share with me the things you can't
Speaker 1: un here moment that really change the way you saw things.
Speaker 2: I've been talking about traditional mansualinity with one of my clients,
Speaker 2: about the cost of denying argument vulnerabilities and pretending to
Speaker 2: be a tough guy all the time, and he said, well,
Speaker 2: you want to know how this gets passed along, let
Speaker 2: me tell you about the transmission of patriarchy. He said.
Speaker 2: I was at one of my kids hockey games, nine
Speaker 2: ten year old and on the other team, one of
Speaker 2: the coaches was a father one of the kids. This
Speaker 2: father slash coach was screaming at his son about what
Speaker 2: a screw up he was just excreating and shaming in
Speaker 2: front of an audience full of parents watching the game,
Speaker 2: screaming at him. And finally the kid had had it
Speaker 2: and he started to cry. And then the father started
Speaker 2: screaming at him for crying. And the kid left the
Speaker 2: field and he went up to the stands in all
Speaker 2: of his gear and pulled off his booth, went up
Speaker 2: to stand and sat next to his mother front of everybody,
Speaker 2: hundreds of people, and his mother leaned in and went
Speaker 2: to put an arm around him, and he punched her
Speaker 2: in the face. Welcome to the transmission to patriarchy. That
Speaker 2: is a story I could never own here and.
Speaker 1: I can absolutely see why. God, this is so much
Speaker 1: in that, isn't there? We really do pass on a
Speaker 1: lot of what we're given. And I know your work
Speaker 1: does You've been doing this for decades. Like you said,
Speaker 1: you're working with couples. You're really helping them to heal
Speaker 1: their relationships or learn how to have the tools to
Speaker 1: hear their relationships. And that is one of the key aspects,
Speaker 1: isn't It is looking at your past and looking how
Speaker 1: you've been taught how to love and how to show up.
Speaker 1: And when we jump into that, we can really become
Speaker 1: our own person, can't We We can break down what
Speaker 1: we've been given and say no, that doesn't work for me,
Speaker 1: that doesn't work for my relationship. I'm going to choose differently.
Speaker 1: I'm going to act differently. Can you talk to me
Speaker 1: about how you help people break that past down so
Speaker 1: that they're their person they want to be.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I have a million of sayings, and one
Speaker 2: of them is we all marry our unfinished business. We
Speaker 2: all married the next step in our own development. If
Speaker 2: we're lucky, you know when we are you in a relationship.
Speaker 1: Maye, I am, I've been married for almost twenty years.
Speaker 2: Oh well that's great, congratulations, thank you, pauling in love.
Speaker 2: Whether we're too sophisticated a say or not, Hey, this
Speaker 2: person's going to complete me. This person's going to give
Speaker 2: me everything that those creeps I grew up with did,
Speaker 2: or at the very least, I'm going to avoid whatever
Speaker 2: pain I had in my childhood. Today of your real
Speaker 2: marriage comes when you realize the person you picked not
Speaker 2: only will not heal you complete, you avoided. The version
Speaker 2: you picked is I like to say, exquisitely designed to
Speaker 2: stick the spear right into your eyeball. It's like, wait
Speaker 2: a minute. I hired you so you wouldn't abandon me
Speaker 2: like my mom did. I hired you so you were trustworthy,
Speaker 2: not like my And here you go, and I'm looking
Speaker 2: at our bank account and here you go, and like,
Speaker 2: whatever it is I thought you would never do, guess
Speaker 2: what you just did? And now what? It doesn't mean
Speaker 2: you're in a bad relationship. It means you're in a
Speaker 2: real relationship. Their imperfections collide with yours, and it is difficult.
Speaker 2: Our culture doesn't acknowledge how difficult real relationships are, but
Speaker 2: real relationships. I got this from Ed Tronic, an infant
Speaker 2: observational researcher. Real He looked at mothers and and he
Speaker 2: was one of the first of a generation to stick
Speaker 2: a camera in front of mothers and then fathers and infants.
Speaker 2: But before that, all of us therapists extrapolated from listening
Speaker 2: to adults. Now, now let's actually look at what happens.
Speaker 2: And what chinal I found is a rhythm of what
Speaker 2: he calls harmony, disharmony, and repair, closeness, disruption, a return.
Speaker 2: You look at a mother and you know, first there's
Speaker 2: this it's golden, and then there's gas or hunger or
Speaker 2: annoy and then the baby freaks out. Mother tries to sue,
Speaker 2: doesn't work. Then the mother freaks out. Now they're both
Speaker 2: freaked out, and then the nipples accepted, the gas passes,
Speaker 2: and we're back to ed. Had you go to YouTube
Speaker 2: and see this rhythm. Forty seconds is the length of
Speaker 2: the tape. Harmony, disharmony, repair, and I say all relationships,
Speaker 2: so does Ed. Now, all relationships are That is the
Speaker 2: rhythm of relationships. But that's not what we're taught. We're
Speaker 2: taught a great relationship is all harmony. A great sex
Speaker 2: life is what you had the first weeks of your
Speaker 2: A great body is what a seventeen year old had.
Speaker 2: And in the researchers are really clearer. Childhood trust is
Speaker 2: not built from no stress, no danger, all harmony. Childhood
Speaker 2: trust is built from surviving the mess of harmony disruption.
Speaker 2: And you know, peek a boo is our first game.
Speaker 2: I'm here, I'm not here, I'm here again. Harmony disharmony. Okay,
Speaker 2: you are talking to the man who coined the phrase
Speaker 2: normal marital hatred. And I've been talking about this for
Speaker 2: forty years around the world. No one has ever asked
Speaker 2: me what I mean by that, So I don't know
Speaker 2: how it is for you. But what you are not
Speaker 2: taught is that disharmony phase is dark.
Speaker 3: It's horror, it's true, Terry.
Speaker 1: I think you know we can sit in that disharmony
Speaker 1: for a long time. I think with my relationship and
Speaker 1: in my marriage, we've been together a very long time,
Speaker 1: but we've grown together, but sometimes it's taken a while
Speaker 1: to catch up in between. And there's been times where
Speaker 1: disharmony lasted longer than I would have wanted to so
Speaker 1: I think what we've learned over time is that we've
Speaker 1: closed the gap a little bit in that time frame
Speaker 1: where disharmony sits.
Speaker 3: What's the key there?
Speaker 2: Do you think there are two reasons why we don't
Speaker 2: go back to harmony. First of all, our culture doesn't
Speaker 2: equip us to do it. In fact, we feel ashamed
Speaker 2: we're in disharmony to begin with, because I call this
Speaker 2: relational shame. It's just like individuals. You go to a
Speaker 2: party and you're advanced that the couples to the left
Speaker 2: and the right of you are fighting less and having
Speaker 2: better sex than you are. But which you don't know
Speaker 2: is they're anything about you. We all long for the divice,
Speaker 2: We all long for gods and goddesses that will complete
Speaker 2: us and understand us always. But it's the clash of
Speaker 2: your actual imperfection and mind and how we manage that.
Speaker 2: That's the guts of what a real relationship is. That's
Speaker 2: why AI girlfriends will never really replace.
Speaker 3: Thank Goodness for that.
Speaker 2: Well, they're too gratifying. My friend Carol Gilligan, you're pretty young.
Speaker 2: You may not know her, but great a woman's psychology pioneer.
Speaker 2: She taught me this and everybody knows King James, God
Speaker 2: made Eve out of Adam's rib to comfort him, right,
Speaker 2: But the actual Aramaic and I was in Jerusalem with
Speaker 2: a bunch of black hat you know, Israeli rabbis, and
Speaker 2: they all knew that as they were connected, they all
Speaker 2: knew the phrase. The actual Aramaic says God made Eve
Speaker 2: out of Adams with to comfort him by opposing him.
Speaker 2: That they leave out. There's this creative tension that comes
Speaker 2: from the confrontation of my dealing with your imperfection and
Speaker 2: you're dealing with mine, and how he managed that. Digest it,
Speaker 2: work on it, make it better. Our culture doesn't teach
Speaker 2: us any of these skills. So moving from disharmony into
Speaker 2: repairer where all the skills come in. How to speak
Speaker 2: up but be loving and not harsh, how to listen
Speaker 2: and not be defensive. A lot of technique which no
Speaker 2: one teachoes you. I do, not the culture. So the
Speaker 2: first order of business is we don't know what to do.
Speaker 2: We don't know how to do it. You know, I'm
Speaker 2: in disharmony. I'm going to regurgitate all of my bad
Speaker 2: feelings all over you. Well, no, I'm in disharmony. I'm
Speaker 2: going to get back at you. I'm in disharmony. I'm
Speaker 2: going to prove to you that I'm right. You're wrong,
Speaker 2: losing strategy. Now you're in disharmony in your heart. Figure
Speaker 2: out what you want from your partner and then act
Speaker 2: in a way that actually gives you a chance of
Speaker 2: getting it from them. So how about instead of criticizing
Speaker 2: and complaining them, you compliment them for what they're doing
Speaker 2: right and say, even better would be dot dot dot
Speaker 2: as a favor of me. Might you work on that
Speaker 2: with humility, subjectivity and starting off with a positive appreciation.
Speaker 2: Who does that? No one unless they're trained, and you
Speaker 2: have to be trained. But there are sophisticated ways of
Speaker 2: handling yourself in a relationship that work better. None of
Speaker 2: us would get on stage and play piano without a teacher,
Speaker 2: or put on skis without a lesson. Well, guess what,
Speaker 2: there's a relational technology that works better than what this
Speaker 2: culture teaches and what your mama and dad taught you.
Speaker 2: But it's you have to learn it.
Speaker 3: It's an art.
Speaker 2: It is. So one thing is we don't know what
Speaker 2: to do. We literally don't know what to do. We
Speaker 2: have to be talkt But the other thing is when
Speaker 2: you're in disharmony, you get triggered. So what this particular
Speaker 2: disarmy looks like with this particular partner because you picked him,
Speaker 2: is your unfinished business. I was raised by an angry dad,
Speaker 2: like a lot of men. My wife, Linda, was raised
Speaker 2: in an angry family. So we brought fighters. But Linda
Speaker 2: comes at me with criticism and anger. We're in disharmony.
Speaker 2: I'm not a seventy five year old man talking to
Speaker 2: his wife of forty years. I'm a five year old
Speaker 2: talking to my goddamn it, towering six foot three angry
Speaker 2: father is going to hit me, and I've got my
Speaker 2: do I'm ready to protect myself. So what happens is
Speaker 2: it flooded. Automatic parts of us take over that wouldn't
Speaker 2: use these skills even if we had them, because whise
Speaker 2: adult cell prefund cortex is offline, and survival subcortical, primitive
Speaker 2: parts of the brain take over fight flight or fawn.
Speaker 2: We've added fawn. Now, O lion, don't eat me, let
Speaker 2: me look your paws. I'll groom you. As an adult
Speaker 2: faun becomes fixed or enabling codependence, anxious attachment, fight, flight,
Speaker 2: or fawn. These are your automatic, knee jerk responses. We
Speaker 2: call it your adaptive child. It's the part of it
Speaker 2: that adapted to whatever you had back then. I think
Speaker 2: it's an adult. The world truths our adapted children, like
Speaker 2: it's an adult. Our partners don't, our kids don't. So
Speaker 2: I deal with highly successful people who live out of
Speaker 2: their adaptive child. They're fighters, fleers, or fixers. The world
Speaker 2: makes them very successful, and they're very unhappy inside their skin,
Speaker 2: and they're miserable to live with. How do we get
Speaker 2: out of it? I teach people to quiet those reactions automatic, overwhelming,
Speaker 2: Take a break, take a breath, and reach for that
Speaker 2: wise part of you. Wait a minute, I call it
Speaker 2: remembering love. Wait a minute. I'm not five, but it
Speaker 2: is not my towering father. I'm not going to get hit.
Speaker 2: I don't have to yell and scream. Let me take
Speaker 2: a breath, try something different. We call this relational mindfulness.
Speaker 2: First the automatic, and then a break. Literally, take a
Speaker 2: walk around the block. Take a break. Count to ten,
Speaker 2: go for a walk. Put that little five year old
Speaker 2: on your lap and talk to him. But we don't
Speaker 2: go back into the relationship until you're remembering, well, but
Speaker 2: it is not the enemy. She's my pal and I
Speaker 2: don't have to beat her into the ground. I can
Speaker 2: diffuse her anger with more sophisticated tools like listening to her.
Speaker 2: My adapter or child is going to fight her. Who
Speaker 2: do you think you are talking to me like my
Speaker 2: wise adult? Okay, honey, I'm sorry you're angry. Don't tell
Speaker 2: me what's going on? Which are those two doors that's
Speaker 2: going to get me where I want to go? So
Speaker 2: we have to learn and then have support and play
Speaker 2: different cards than the default that we were given as kid.
Speaker 1: It's really the key of so many relationships is just
Speaker 1: carving ourselves, not saying what we say in the heated moment,
Speaker 1: stepping back, regulating our emotions, and then speaking. You know,
Speaker 1: I was around a table yesterday with a group of
Speaker 1: adults and talking about this upcoming interview actually, and we
Speaker 1: all had our take on relationships. Most of us were
Speaker 1: in long term relationships around the table, and someone made
Speaker 1: it a comment, and it was it was obviously a joke,
Speaker 1: but he said, I think we should all break up.
Speaker 1: Everyone should just break us because it's too hard. But
Speaker 1: I think, you know, it was funny. We all loved
Speaker 1: and because we know how hard relationships can be. But
Speaker 1: you know, I love looking back and self regulating and
Speaker 1: knowing all these things, but also owning where you are
Speaker 1: wrong too, and seeing you know what where am I? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that Part's my bad. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that
Speaker 1: I did that without the butt, without the pot.
Speaker 2: It's so hard for people. I have a whole YouTube
Speaker 2: ten minutes on how to give a good ology, which yeah,
Speaker 2: I did it, but I did it, but you have
Speaker 2: to understand that I did it, but you no, No,
Speaker 2: I did it, land on it. I did it. Sorry,
Speaker 2: I'll bet that hurt. Do you want to tell me
Speaker 2: about it? Then? Is there something I can say do
Speaker 2: to help you feel better? But after they've been heard?
Speaker 1: Not?
Speaker 2: Instead of very hard for us to do?
Speaker 3: It is true?
Speaker 1: Now you talk about that fieriness in relationships, and I
Speaker 1: know you talk.
Speaker 3: About hot couples, cold couples, and mixed couples. Can you
Speaker 3: explain that to us?
Speaker 1: Because I find this fascinating When you can really identify
Speaker 1: what your dynamic is in your partnership, it's.
Speaker 2: Really a boundary issue. Hot couples tend to have poor boundaries.
Speaker 2: They're thin skinned they're very reactive, and they don't contain
Speaker 2: themselves very well. They're easily upset, and if they're upset,
Speaker 2: boom they are. And if you're with a partner who
Speaker 2: is also hot, there's a lot of opera going on
Speaker 2: in your relationship. Cold couples are the opposite. They don't
Speaker 2: have two porous too thin skinned. They're walled off. If
Speaker 2: they live in armor, you don't get in and not
Speaker 2: much gets out, and they need to open up more.
Speaker 2: Lets yourself be hurt, You won't die, Share what you're
Speaker 2: thinking and feeling. Your partner won't die. And of course,
Speaker 2: when you get these two together, you get your classic
Speaker 2: heteronormative pair. The more she angrily pursues, the more he
Speaker 2: coldly withdrawals, and the more he withdraws, the more she pursues.
Speaker 2: We look at these patterns of the more, the more,
Speaker 2: the vicious circle, and it's like, okay, how about one
Speaker 2: of you changing your dance step here? What are you
Speaker 2: by the way? Can I ask you can pass but
Speaker 2: fight flight or fix?
Speaker 1: I feel like I've come down from hot and I'm
Speaker 1: sitting in between like I bound balance.
Speaker 3: I would say I would say I found balance.
Speaker 2: In recovery most of the time. Yeah, but let's just
Speaker 2: hypothetically say that one day a year when you might
Speaker 2: lose your shit. But do you tend to be walled
Speaker 2: off and distant or boundary less and no boundaryless?
Speaker 3: Definitely not walled off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, boundary you'd angrily complain, but you learn better. You're
Speaker 2: not doing that so much. Yeah, that's the way many
Speaker 2: of us. Well, when I talk about changing the cards
Speaker 2: in your hand because the cards you were dealt don't
Speaker 2: work very well, that's a good example. You know, many
Speaker 2: of us, particularly women, try and get more of what
Speaker 2: we want in our relationships by complaining about what's not
Speaker 2: going right. That's a terrible behavioral. You wouldn't do that
Speaker 2: with a kid. You wouldn't do that with a dog.
Speaker 2: You don't try and train a dog by only punishing
Speaker 2: it when it does things wrong. You have to teach
Speaker 2: it what right looks like and rewarded. Hello. But we
Speaker 2: don't do that with ourselves. We don't say in advance,
Speaker 2: this is what I would like from you as a
Speaker 2: favor to me, would you be willing to do that
Speaker 2: for me? We are spontaneous, so we hang out, let
Speaker 2: our partner fail, and then share and therapists encourage us
Speaker 2: share with them our negative feelings about what they just
Speaker 2: did to us, and then we expect them to do
Speaker 2: differently next time. Good luck with that. So do you
Speaker 2: want a method for getting more of what you want
Speaker 2: your relationship?
Speaker 3: Let's do that. He's the practical people.
Speaker 2: Three steps. One, dare to rock the boat. This is
Speaker 2: what from the eye, this is what you should be doing.
Speaker 2: You're not God's gifts, you're not the expert. This is
Speaker 2: what I want. This always subjective. You don't need the objective.
Speaker 2: This is what's important to me. It's really important. Please listen,
Speaker 2: don't disregard this. It's important. That's daring to rock the boat.
Speaker 2: Once we have their attention and they're trying drop the
Speaker 2: sword and cheel, people don't get that. They keep selling
Speaker 2: past the sale. I would like you to do more
Speaker 2: of this, okay, well, because it's terrible when you don't
Speaker 2: do it. You know you didn't do it. I already
Speaker 2: said i'd do it. On like, don't take the yes.
Speaker 2: Don't use d s as an occasion for a teachable moment.
Speaker 2: Just takes the yes. Good now. Two, let me show
Speaker 2: you what I would like to see more of. Don't
Speaker 2: ask them, teach them. If they're willing, let me show you.
Speaker 2: And this is particularly important for women. I have a saying,
Speaker 2: you can't be angry about not getting what you never
Speaker 2: asked for. But as part of the traditional female role,
Speaker 2: my prints try if if I have to fight for it,
Speaker 2: if I have to ask for it, if I have
Speaker 2: to teach him to do it, and it's that, that's
Speaker 2: no good. My Prince Charming should just know, well, good
Speaker 2: luck with that. I like to say, girls, Cinderella's dead,
Speaker 2: Prince Charming probably just came out of rehab, and if
Speaker 2: you want it, you're gonna have to roll up the
Speaker 2: sleeves and fight for it. So once they're listening to
Speaker 2: you and they want to please you, teach them what
Speaker 2: you want. Don't expect them to know. I like to say,
Speaker 2: more assertion of front less resentment on the back end.
Speaker 2: So here's a simple example. John Gray, bless his heart,
Speaker 2: made millions of dollars with one goddamn point. I'm not
Speaker 2: jealous or anything. Men tend to do problem solving listening,
Speaker 2: and women wanted empathy. Thank you, John, Mike, couldn't I
Speaker 2: have said that? It's true? So I wrote a piece
Speaker 2: for all magazine about this. There's three listeners. There's a
Speaker 2: problem solver. Have you tried this? What about that? This
Speaker 2: is a teachable moment. Well, I have this issue with
Speaker 2: you too. That's all teaching and problem solving. There's empathy.
Speaker 2: Oh that sounds awful. Tell me more about that. What's
Speaker 2: that like for you? And then they're sharing. Women do
Speaker 2: a lot of sharing. I'm usual a lot of show
Speaker 2: Oh your knee, my knee, your adolescent, my adolescent, drive
Speaker 2: me crazy. There's nothing wrong with any of those responses.
Speaker 2: Oh that sounds terrible. It empathy. Have you thought about
Speaker 2: doing this problem solving? Oh? Yeah, I've had that problem
Speaker 2: too sharing. What's wrong is that people don't negotiate what
Speaker 2: kind of listener they want, and so they just put
Speaker 2: it out and then the other person responds, and then
Speaker 2: they're disappointed, and then they try and correct the other
Speaker 2: person's response. The other person feels unappreciated, And let's do empathy,
Speaker 2: because almost everybody wants empathy at least first. What was
Speaker 2: your husband's name?
Speaker 3: His name is Charlie.
Speaker 2: Charlie, Charlie. I just had a fight with one of
Speaker 2: my girlfriends and I feel like shit. I really want
Speaker 2: to bet about it. Can you give me ten minutes
Speaker 2: of empathic listening? Don't solve my problem, don't make helpful suggestions,
Speaker 2: don't tell me about what happened to you. Just be
Speaker 2: there for me like a girlfriend maybe said that sounds awful,
Speaker 2: tell me about it? Could you do that for ten minutes?
Speaker 2: By the way, that ten minute limit is great for guys.
Speaker 2: Guys think we have to talk. Means we're going to
Speaker 2: be up till four in the morning. So great, and
Speaker 2: he does. Yeah, no, there was only a few helpful suggestions,
Speaker 2: and he's not perfect, but he tries. I tell people,
Speaker 2: celebrate the last fifteen percent full It was only five
Speaker 2: percent pool before. But how many of us do that?
Speaker 2: When our partner tries to give us what we want,
Speaker 2: we're almost always critical. Half ass job, you're doing it now,
Speaker 2: but you don't really mean it. You're going to start crazy.
Speaker 2: Be encouraging, not discouraging. You did a half ass job.
Speaker 2: Good for you. What are we going to do to
Speaker 2: get the other cheek up there? It helped them out,
Speaker 2: and then the third phase is reward them. Fifteen is
Speaker 2: a lot better than five percent last week. I'm really
Speaker 2: pleased with you. Let's keep going. The same way you
Speaker 2: would with a kid, but we don't do it with adults.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting actually asking up front. Half the time
Speaker 1: we don't know what we want, but it's interesting. Do
Speaker 1: you think we're asking too much of our relationships? Do
Speaker 1: you think we need too much from one person? Do
Speaker 1: you think we can spread our wings sometimes say I
Speaker 1: know I'm getting this from my partner and my husband,
Speaker 1: but I'm getting these different conversations with my girlfriends, or
Speaker 1: I'm getting these different conversations or interrupt actions with my children.
Speaker 3: So we can.
Speaker 1: Spread what we need more widely than just direct it
Speaker 1: to one person. Do you think that would be helpful?
Speaker 2: Yes, we are asking too much of our relationships and
Speaker 2: got to really ask yourself, is this okay with me? Belinda,
Speaker 2: who's a great couples of family therapists in her own right.
Speaker 2: Ever since I don't want to talk about it came
Speaker 2: out in the nineties, if you've had a ton of
Speaker 2: hearing about the great Terry Reel and Terry's great ideas
Speaker 2: and how Terry changed my life and blah blah, her
Speaker 2: idea A fascinating dinner conversation does not include an in
Speaker 2: depth conversation of my work and my thinking forty two
Speaker 2: years as enough. But I could go out with somebody
Speaker 2: else and have an in depth conversation about my work
Speaker 2: and theirs and what we're all thinking. I don't need
Speaker 2: blind in my heart of hearts. Would my perfect wife
Speaker 2: do that as she would? This is what I mean
Speaker 2: when I say we're with imperfect human beings, and a
Speaker 2: lot of us walk around being resentful victims. So I
Speaker 2: believe in a serenity prayer. If it was really important
Speaker 2: to me, I would say to Belinda, I need you
Speaker 2: to show more interest in my work. I'm feeling lonely.
Speaker 2: How can we deal with that? Or I can let
Speaker 2: go and I get so many other wonderful things from her.
Speaker 2: She shared my work for twenty years. Enough already. It's
Speaker 2: a personal decision. I getting enough in this relationship to
Speaker 2: make grieving what I'm not getting okay with me. And
Speaker 2: if the answer is yeah, then get off your high
Speaker 2: horse and don't walk around like a big angry victim
Speaker 2: and embrace what you are getting. If the answer is no,
Speaker 2: you know, no, we haven't air section, I keep getting
Speaker 2: yelled at, no, We're too distant, and roll up your
Speaker 2: sleeves and get in the ring and duke it out
Speaker 2: about one or the other. Either address it or accept it,
Speaker 2: but don't walk around letting it. Yeah, yeah, being resentful.
Speaker 2: And if you can't get through to your partner and
Speaker 2: then get some couple's therapy. I like ROLT relational life
Speaker 2: therapy when I've created, because will help you get through
Speaker 2: to your partner. Whereas most couple therapists are taught to
Speaker 2: throw you under the bus. Listen to her. She's right,
Speaker 2: you're wrong. You need to listen to her. Not too
Speaker 2: many therapists will do that, but ROALT therapists will. So
Speaker 2: get an ally who will help you get through your partner.
Speaker 2: But if you're going to let go, let go, if
Speaker 2: you're really walking around in a state of resentment, admit
Speaker 2: that to yourself and do something about it. It's poison.
Speaker 1: It brings up that conversation around you know when to
Speaker 1: stay and when to go, when to know the relationship
Speaker 1: has expired, and when it's not right for you, and
Speaker 1: when it's salvageable and you want to stay.
Speaker 3: How do you make that decision?
Speaker 2: Am I fighting for what I want? And am I
Speaker 2: doing it skillfully? A lot of times people don't get
Speaker 2: through to each other because when they try, they just
Speaker 2: don't have the skills. For example, here's a simple skill,
Speaker 2: tanding up for yourself with love. This is like one
Speaker 2: of half a dozen skills we teach people in our culture.
Speaker 2: When you finally do stand up for yourself, nine out
Speaker 2: of ten people do it with harshness. I'm really pissed
Speaker 2: off about blah blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah, well
Speaker 2: how about this. I really love you, honey. There's so
Speaker 2: much about us that's so great. There's this one thing.
Speaker 2: You scratch me here. It's not really it. Could you
Speaker 2: try scratching me here instead? It would work better. Would
Speaker 2: you be willing to do that for me, sweetheart? Two
Speaker 2: different ways of saying the same thing. But we don't
Speaker 2: underpatriarchy understand that we can be powerful and loving at
Speaker 2: the same time. We think that when we step into
Speaker 2: power we have to be individualistic. Now, I love you.
Speaker 2: You're a great guy. I know you want to please me.
Speaker 2: This and this works this one look at a favor
Speaker 2: to me. Could you try doing it differently? Who sounds
Speaker 2: like that? No one unless they've been trained. God damn it.
Speaker 2: I don't like it. Just better stop. That's the way
Speaker 2: we sound well, they're more sophisticated ways of getting through.
Speaker 2: So the first order of business is, if you're not
Speaker 2: getting through, you go off and take a couple of
Speaker 2: I've got all sorts of online courses, learn about how
Speaker 2: you might try to get through to your partner in
Speaker 2: more sophisticated ways that work better. If that doesn't work,
Speaker 2: drag his butt into a couple's therapists and one you've
Speaker 2: vetted one that will be a true ally. She's right,
Speaker 2: you're not listening. You really do want to listen to her.
Speaker 2: Let me help you, not a neutral therapist. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: well she's right, but you're right. But she's right, but
Speaker 2: you're right. But you don't want that because somebody's going
Speaker 2: to take your And then if you've tried every which
Speaker 2: way for Sunday to get through, if you drag them
Speaker 2: to a good therapist who's tried to get through and
Speaker 2: it ain't happening, then you do what I call a
Speaker 2: relational reckoning. I'm not going to get this. How do
Speaker 2: I sit with that? Am I getting enough other things
Speaker 2: that not getting this is okay with me? Hurts? But
Speaker 2: look at all the wonderful things I do get. In
Speaker 2: which case let go of your resentment and embrace what
Speaker 2: you're getting and be happy. No, it's really not okay,
Speaker 2: and then it's time for an ultimatum. This and this
Speaker 2: change it, or we're done, and you may be done.
Speaker 2: In RILT relational life therapy what I've created, we don't
Speaker 2: see successful therapy as saving every couple. We see successful
Speaker 2: therapy as helping you get out of your misery. If
Speaker 2: you get out by transforming your relationship and it's less miserable,
Speaker 2: that's our preference, particularly the kids. But if you can,
Speaker 2: if anyone to go, you get out. I don't want
Speaker 2: people living miserable life.
Speaker 3: So true.
Speaker 1: There's something I heard you say that I found fascinating
Speaker 1: and I've written it here, and it's more in regards
Speaker 1: to people having external relationships or cheating on their partner.
Speaker 1: And what I heard you say was every time you
Speaker 1: say no to something, every time you say no to
Speaker 1: someone potentially flirting with you or approaching you, or giving
Speaker 1: you an opportunity to do the wrong thing, you compromise
Speaker 1: your integrity and you're saying yes to the life that
Speaker 1: you want by saying no.
Speaker 3: I loved that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got this from a beloved friend and Carlie
Speaker 2: Carrol Gllagan. I was ninety now, Carol, and still flaying
Speaker 2: around the word. Carol wrote a book called The Birth of Pleasure,
Speaker 2: and we've been having in depth conversations for decades now.
Speaker 2: And Carol believes that pleasure is a marker for intimacy,
Speaker 2: that intimacy is intrinsically pleasurable, and that's what we humans
Speaker 2: are born for. So she literally takes the quite radical
Speaker 2: position that minute to minute, every decision you make should
Speaker 2: be governed by pleasure. Every minute of every decision.
Speaker 3: Not realistic.
Speaker 2: I'm on the road giving a lecture, Blenda, the kids
Speaker 2: are home, and some gorgeous twenty something you know comes
Speaker 2: in and is standing way too close, tells me that
Speaker 2: she loves me, and she's in room such and such
Speaker 2: and here's the key, and I'll see you later. And
Speaker 2: I choose to not go. I'm not being ruled by pleasure.
Speaker 2: Pleasure would be to go. And she said, no, you
Speaker 2: are being ruled by pleasure. You are foregoing a superficial
Speaker 2: for the deeper pleasure of preserving your family, your marriage,
Speaker 2: your kids, your integrity means more to you than a
Speaker 2: lovely name of sex with a stranger. You just choose
Speaker 2: the deeper pleasure over the more superficial pleasure, but you're
Speaker 2: still choosing pleasure.
Speaker 1: I love that so much, and that's why it landed
Speaker 1: with me so much, because you see couples who make
Speaker 1: the wrong decisions in the heat of the moment without
Speaker 1: it's again that walking away, that self emotional regulations, that
Speaker 1: pause between action is what I think a lot of
Speaker 1: us need to take when it comes to any relationship
Speaker 1: or any reaction to what we do. You've brought up intimacy,
Speaker 1: and intimacy, I think is a big thing and something
Speaker 1: that we all crave in relationships. And I heard someone
Speaker 1: say once that intimacy is into me see And I
Speaker 1: found that fascinating because I feel as though, yes, intimacy's
Speaker 1: pleasure and sex and all of those wonderful things, but
Speaker 1: it's also being seen in a way that you wish
Speaker 1: to be seen by your partner or the person.
Speaker 3: Would you agree with that.
Speaker 2: Bes I mean, intimacy is resonance. There's a great spiritual teacher,
Speaker 2: Thomas Ubel German lives in Tel Aviv, and he defines
Speaker 2: intimacy as I feel you feeling me. I've landed and
Speaker 2: I can feel it. It's resonance. It's a two men.
Speaker 2: You find some people who are all neck up, they're
Speaker 2: all intellectual, and you don't feel them feeling you because
Speaker 2: they don't feel much of anything. They're just we were
Speaker 2: talking about being too open, too poorous. I don't feel
Speaker 2: like you're feeling me. You're off to the races with
Speaker 2: whatever's coming up in you. I'm not even here. Or
Speaker 2: I don't feel you feeling me because you're rolled off
Speaker 2: in your hearts behind armor and you don't let yourself
Speaker 2: feel much of anything. So this intimacy thing is delicate.
Speaker 2: I'm on your side. I have to teach people point
Speaker 2: of view. Start off with your partner's point of view.
Speaker 2: You know, good old Belinda, she's like a guy. I'm
Speaker 2: like the chick and she's like the guy. So I
Speaker 2: would say I had a fight with so and so,
Speaker 2: and Belinda would go, well, I could see why they're
Speaker 2: mad at you about that. I ain't get mad at
Speaker 2: you about the same thing, actually, And I'm going like, no, Blinda,
Speaker 2: don't be on the inside beyond my big bit. And
Speaker 2: I teach your point of start off with the point
Speaker 2: of view of the person you love. Start there, then
Speaker 2: maybe you can ask if they're interested in any other
Speaker 2: insight you have. But we just don't teach our kids.
Speaker 2: I would like relationship skills taught in elementary school and
Speaker 2: junior high and high in college. We are not a
Speaker 2: relationship cherishing culture. We give lip service to it, but
Speaker 2: we don't really value it, and we don't teach our sons, daughters,
Speaker 2: non binary kids. The base is how you have a fight.
Speaker 2: This how you make prepair. This is how you apologize
Speaker 2: to somebody. Don't yes about them, you just say yes,
Speaker 2: I did it, I'm sorry. This is how you handle shame.
Speaker 2: You're a good person who behave badly. You feel bad
Speaker 2: about the behavior, but you can still hold yourself in
Speaker 2: warm regard. We have to teach people all this stuff.
Speaker 2: We don't know how to do it in this culture,
Speaker 2: but we do. But the problem is once you're flooded,
Speaker 2: once you're not. If I may, you can pass it.
Speaker 3: How old are you forty six?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well you look great? Okay? So thanks? Do you say?
Speaker 2: Your husbands name is John, his name is Charlie.
Speaker 1: We've been together since I was seventeen, so we've been
Speaker 1: together a very long time and married for twenty years.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, so you know you're in a state of
Speaker 2: disharmony with Charlie. He does something and you lose that
Speaker 2: forty ish year old you and you're a three year
Speaker 2: old little girl, and it depends on what happened to you,
Speaker 2: you know, fight, flight or fix. It's major and it's
Speaker 2: visceral and it's automatic, and it feels like this is
Speaker 2: what I got to shut this down. I got to
Speaker 2: stand up for myself and bopla guy, or I got
Speaker 2: to help him feel better. I can't feel good unless
Speaker 2: he feels good. That's what you learned as a kid,
Speaker 2: and we bring those adaptations into our long term relationships.
Speaker 2: They're not mature, they're not skilled. They're about survival. So
Speaker 2: the first skill is taking a break, taking a walk.
Speaker 2: I have one pager on my website, Terryreeel dot com
Speaker 2: on how to take a time out, take a formal
Speaker 2: time out. Don't go back into your relationship until you're
Speaker 2: centered and you remember, oh, yeah, this guy's not the
Speaker 2: enemy who's out to screw me. He's my Charlie. He's
Speaker 2: pain in the ass, but I love him. Let's see
Speaker 2: what I can do here. Okay, good, now you're ready
Speaker 2: to go back. So The first order of business is centering.
Speaker 2: We teach workshops all over the world, and my favorite
Speaker 2: slide is other workshops teach you skills. We deal with
Speaker 2: the part of you that won't you with them first.
Speaker 2: Get out of that knee jerk. Automatic response at that
Speaker 2: point of view, doesn't want any skills. They just want
Speaker 2: to do what you do, fight flight effects, Take a breath, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm here, what's needed. One of my half a dozen
Speaker 2: skills I've learned is the one I'm going to bring
Speaker 2: to the table today. That's how you get out of it.
Speaker 2: But that's why of healing and thought.
Speaker 3: That's true. There's the chemistry thing.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us feel as though in
Speaker 1: relationships the chemistry burns out and it's you know, the
Speaker 1: first couple of years is amazing and you're feeling excited
Speaker 1: by each other, and then all of a sudden, the
Speaker 1: chemistry fizzles.
Speaker 3: And I heard recently on a J.
Speaker 1: Shaddy podcast something quite fascinating around when the chemistry ends,
Speaker 1: it feels like boredom. But I think we confuse boredom
Speaker 1: with what safety actually feels like. And I loved that too,
Speaker 1: because I think safety some that we all wish to
Speaker 1: feel in relationships, but when the chemistry ends, we're like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe this is a little poring, Maybe this isn't for me,
Speaker 1: and it's not natural to feel that chemistry for twenty
Speaker 1: thirty forty years, is it. We're built to feel chemistry
Speaker 1: in that initial spark of a way when we first meet,
Speaker 1: but the chemistry can be defined in different ways, in
Speaker 1: different perceptions as we go through a long term relationship.
Speaker 2: What you're calling gimming of the chemistry. I always say,
Speaker 2: you and your partner are getting too safe, and my
Speaker 2: power is there. Parrell and I both take this on,
Speaker 2: but we kind of go in two different directions. Estere goes,
Speaker 2: you're too brotherly ancestrally, so you need less sort of
Speaker 2: fusion and more differentiation. You know, do a role play,
Speaker 2: you get dressed up like we ludicrously sexy and have
Speaker 2: your husband pick you up like you're a stranger in
Speaker 2: a bar. Or you know, get a new sex toy.
Speaker 2: Let's get some spark here. So more dangerous in a
Speaker 2: sense of more mystery. Here's what I want your relationship
Speaker 2: to be more dangerous because I want you to take
Speaker 2: each other on. Maybe you need more conflict, Maybe you
Speaker 2: need more guts, I believe. Look, I wrote a whole
Speaker 2: thing an audiobook I called Fierce Intimacy, and I believe
Speaker 2: that if you want a passionate relationship, you literally have
Speaker 2: to be willing to risk it, and not just once
Speaker 2: or twice, but ongoing. You have to be a force
Speaker 2: that needs to be reckoned with. If you're not a
Speaker 2: force that needs to be wreckoned with, you're not sexy.
Speaker 2: If you are a force that needs to be reckoned with,
Speaker 2: then there's some danger. But I think healthy relationships are
Speaker 2: not all that safe. I actually hate we kind of
Speaker 2: fetishize safety these days because of all the revolution and
Speaker 2: trauma work and how injured we all are. Oh, we
Speaker 2: want to be safe? Really, why let me tell you
Speaker 2: something we're mortals say about relating. Either you wind up
Speaker 2: in a car crash together, or one of you leaves
Speaker 2: the other forever. What's so safe about that? So I
Speaker 2: talk about reasonable safety. If you really want to be safe,
Speaker 2: don't get out of bed in the morning. The issue
Speaker 2: isn't are you safe? The issue is is it worth it?
Speaker 2: Is it worth the risk? And you know, for some
Speaker 2: people the risk is putting on a mini dress and
Speaker 2: pretending to be a hooker in a bar. That's kind
Speaker 2: of exciting for other people. The danger is leaning in
Speaker 2: to Ternie and go, you know, we've been together for
Speaker 2: thirty years. I hate the way you scratch your nose
Speaker 2: in public. I've never told to this, but embarrass the
Speaker 2: the all out of me. Wow, okay, oh, I feel
Speaker 2: closer to you. Let's have a sec. One of the
Speaker 2: things I say is that when people stop taking each
Speaker 2: other on, the first casualty is passion, and most of
Speaker 2: us stop taking each other on because when we lean
Speaker 2: in and try, we don't have the skills to make it.
Speaker 2: It doesn't work, and so we back off and we
Speaker 2: tell ourselves we're accepting, but really we're settling, and that
Speaker 2: resentment just starts to eat away generosity, surrender, passion, danger.
Speaker 2: So us there would say, well, they've said to mush
Speaker 2: for each other, shut up and be a different person.
Speaker 2: Terry would say, they haven't said enough to each other.
Speaker 2: Lean in and say what isn't being said? You know
Speaker 2: that old thing about you go to a restaurant there's
Speaker 2: an old couple and that they're not saying a word,
Speaker 2: and then the young couple. I don't ever want to
Speaker 2: be I said to Belinda. It isn't that that couple
Speaker 2: has nothing to say. They said they have too much
Speaker 2: to say and no way of saying it to each other.
Speaker 2: So my formula, you want a hot relationship, be hot
Speaker 2: in it. And I don't just mean sexy hot, I
Speaker 2: mean hot hot, lean in and deal with each other.
Speaker 2: Every time you're saying no when you really mean no
Speaker 2: is going to be a diminution in your erotic chart.
Speaker 1: That's probably where the whole makeup sex comes in, right,
Speaker 1: It's that it's that hate and then that coming together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can have makeup sex without a conflict.
Speaker 3: That Yeah, that's going terry.
Speaker 1: In closing, you know, from all the years of work
Speaker 1: that you've worked in relationship, what in relationships? What do
Speaker 1: you want couples to know? Mostly in order to save
Speaker 1: long term relationships, in order to be at their happiest
Speaker 1: selves together.
Speaker 2: In this culture, our relationship to relationship is passive. We're spontaneous.
Speaker 2: You just get where you're getting and your bitch about it. No,
Speaker 2: there's a whole I call it relational technology, just like
Speaker 2: learning to ski or play the piano, or learning how
Speaker 2: to speak French. Go to my web, take some court.
Speaker 2: You me or somebody else. There are more sophisticated ways
Speaker 2: of dealing with each other then this culture teaches you
Speaker 2: that your family probably taught. You're going put some time
Speaker 2: and energy into learning better ways of being with each other.
Speaker 2: They do work better, So get serious about it. Don't
Speaker 2: just lay around and expect it to somehow happen. You're
Speaker 2: going to make it happen.
Speaker 1: Put some time and energy into better ways to being
Speaker 1: with each other. What an amazing closing sentiment, Terry. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for everything you've shared today. I love
Speaker 1: I love your one liners, I love your quotes. I
Speaker 1: love they've really stayed with me over the course of
Speaker 1: this conversation. And there's so much to take away. There's
Speaker 1: so much that you've got online, like you've mentioned, I'll
Speaker 1: put links of everything in the show notes. Again, thank
Speaker 1: you on behalf of all of the couples that you
Speaker 1: help and the happiness that you create.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, and thank you for this wonderful worker doing.
Speaker 2: Keep it up.
Speaker 3: Thanks Harry, Thanks for listening to the show.
Speaker 1: If you want access to the full conversation of this episode,
Speaker 1: you can find the link in the show notes, and
Speaker 1: also make sure you rate and review. If there's something
Speaker 1: in this that you just could not arn here and
Speaker 1: be sure to share it with someone who you think
Speaker 1: might benefit from listening.