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Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installing the you project.

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Speaker 1: My favorite geek, my favorite toxicologist, pharmacologist, genetic guru, Professor

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Speaker 1: Bill is back. Doctor Bill is back. How are you man?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing great, Craig, thanks for having me back on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. We love chatting with you. Now. I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to I'm terrible at promoing. I'm the worst of promoing

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Speaker 1: my own shit, and I'm equally as bad at promoting

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Speaker 1: doctor Bill. So I'm going to tell you go get

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Speaker 1: his book. I'm halfway through it. I'm listening to it.

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Speaker 1: I said i'd be finished it. I full disclosure. I'm

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Speaker 1: under the pump with my PhD, and I've been doing

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Speaker 1: lots of travel and speaking, so I have not heard

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Speaker 1: all of it, but it is great. It is called

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Speaker 1: please to meet me, jeans, germs and the curious forces

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Speaker 1: that make us who we are. And you know, listeners

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Speaker 1: that I don't tell you to or I don't do

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Speaker 1: a call to action unless I mean it. So I

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Speaker 1: never promote anything that I have not tried or read

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Speaker 1: or experienced, and I never promote anything knowingly are intentionally

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Speaker 1: that I don't think is actually worth investing your time

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Speaker 1: or energy or money in and I hate selling stuff,

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Speaker 1: but I think it is a really good investment. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: before we get underway, I really liked the book. I

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Speaker 1: wish you had read it. That's my only complaint. But

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Speaker 1: I love the book. It's not even a complaint. I

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Speaker 1: like your voice. Why didn't you do it?

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Speaker 2: That was outside of my control. I didn't have the

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Speaker 2: option to do it. I would have gladly have read

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Speaker 2: the book for the audio version. I think that would

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Speaker 2: have been fun. But I will say the person they

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Speaker 2: got to do it did a great job. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of scientific jargon that a lot of people mispronounce

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Speaker 2: or simply don't know.

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Speaker 1: So they did a good job. They did do a

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Speaker 1: good job. I will say that they did a good job.

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Speaker 1: I'm a little biased because I know you and I

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Speaker 1: like your voice, and I want to hear your words

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Speaker 1: in your voice. So but you know, it's like, do

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Speaker 1: you know what I love? There's a few people that

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Speaker 1: come on this show that really you know, I'm not Australia.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever heard the Australian term pissing in your pocket?

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Speaker 2: I can imagine what it means.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, pissing in your pocket means kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, flattering you unnecessarily or you know, without sincerity.

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Speaker 1: But so I'm not pissing in your pocket when I

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Speaker 1: say that, there's probably three or four people in the

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Speaker 1: world who are I love that are very very high

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Speaker 1: level at what they do. And you have this capacity

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Speaker 1: to break down things in a way that us mere

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Speaker 1: mortals can understand. And I love that you know that

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Speaker 1: you can share science and research, and you know the

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Speaker 1: complexity of the mind and the body and biology and

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Speaker 1: you know genetics and epigenetics in a way that not

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Speaker 1: only can we understand it, we can then go do

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Speaker 1: something about it. And I think that's as a science communicator,

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Speaker 1: that's something of a superpower. So you know, is that

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Speaker 1: something that that's just your Is that just you or

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Speaker 1: is that something that you consciously developed, that ability to

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Speaker 1: share science? And I kind of use a friendly way.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of reasons why I dove into

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Speaker 2: that aspect of things rather than just like staying locked

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Speaker 2: away and being a lab rat and churning out paper

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Speaker 2: after paper for technical audiences. I kind of, you know,

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Speaker 2: that's obviously important and that's a main component of what

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Speaker 2: I do. But taxpayers fund this research Craig in our country,

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Speaker 2: and they're not going to understand these highly technical journals

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Speaker 2: that you usually need to pay a huge amount of

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Speaker 2: money just to read. So I view it as an obligation,

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Speaker 2: you know, to use their tax dollars which fund my

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Speaker 2: research in public biomedicine. I view it as part of

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Speaker 2: my responsibility to tell the average taxpayer what they're paying for,

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Speaker 2: what they're getting for their money, and hopefully they appreciate

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Speaker 2: the hard work that people in my lab that are

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Speaker 2: that are trying to achieve, you know, trying to make

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Speaker 2: some headway and infectious disease and better understand how genes

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Speaker 2: are regulated and activated under different circumstances, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of a lot of science comes out that is just

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Speaker 2: truly fascinating and by the same token, really important because

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Speaker 2: it's guiding political policy more and more. And I took

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Speaker 2: it as a you know, like like another extension of

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Speaker 2: the duties of my position as a as a professor

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Speaker 2: at a public university. It's partly my job to communicate

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Speaker 2: what is going on to people who vote and have

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Speaker 2: a say in these political policies. I want them to

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Speaker 2: understand the issues so that they have a better handle

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Speaker 2: on you know how to proceed.

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Speaker 1: Yesterday I did a an open to the public or

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Speaker 1: public Like most of my talking, most of my speaking

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Speaker 1: is a corporate but about six times a year, maybe twelve,

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Speaker 1: It depends on the year. It depends on my other workload.

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Speaker 1: But I do public stuff. Yesday did a public workshop

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Speaker 1: called Understanding Me, and it was all around trying to

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Speaker 1: you know, it was just opening the door on trying

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Speaker 1: to understand the self. You know that physically, mentally, emotionally, socially, personally, professionally.

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Speaker 1: Who am I? How am I? Why am I the

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Speaker 1: way I am? What do I think the way that

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Speaker 1: I do? Why do I process data the way that

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Speaker 1: I do? Where do my stories come from? Where do

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Speaker 1: my beliefs come from? You know? What am I doing

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Speaker 1: right now that's working? What am I doing bill that's

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Speaker 1: not working? What's my data telling me? What's my life

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Speaker 1: telling me? What's my body telling me? You know? And

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Speaker 1: it was not you know, there were more questions and solutions,

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Speaker 1: but it's more about provoking people and getting people to

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Speaker 1: think about you know, why do you simultaneously say to

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Speaker 1: me that you want to be fitter and healthier and

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Speaker 1: operate better on a physiological level. And also on the

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Speaker 1: same day, put shit in your body that's fucking toxic.

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Speaker 1: And now this is not self loathing, this is just awareness.

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Speaker 1: So what is that about? How well do you think

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Speaker 1: we understand ourselves? You know? And the self that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about is multi dimensional. Obviously, it's more than physiology.

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Speaker 1: It's more than psychology, it's more than sociology. It's more

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Speaker 1: than emotions, it's more than behaviors. It's like, it's a

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Speaker 1: multitude of things, you know. But how well do you

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Speaker 1: think we understand ourselves? Is part one? And part two

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Speaker 1: is how do we understand ourselves better? Which I know

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Speaker 1: that that's another book, But where do we start?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was going to ask you how long your

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Speaker 2: workshop was, because it could take a lifetime. I'm afraid

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Speaker 2: to understand just yourself, let alone other people. But that's

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Speaker 2: precisely why I wrote the book, Greg, is because I

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Speaker 2: wanted to get a better understanding of some of the

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Speaker 2: quirks in my own personality, some of my own idiosyncrasies

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Speaker 2: that are relatively unique to me that a lot of

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Speaker 2: other people don't do. I didn't understand what the basis

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Speaker 2: for that difference was, so I plunged into the research,

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Speaker 2: utilizing my background in the sciences to try to read

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Speaker 2: all these psychology, sociology papers, genetics papers, all these other

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Speaker 2: things to try to come up with some sort of

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Speaker 2: simplistic understanding of what makes the human body tick. And

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Speaker 2: unfortunately it's not a simple concept. And this is why

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Speaker 2: some people spend virtual lifetimes in meditation practices trying to

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Speaker 2: figure out what the human self really is, what constitutes it,

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Speaker 2: what is it here for? How can we make it better?

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Speaker 2: These are really important questions. I try and tried my

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Speaker 2: best to simplify the complexity of human self in that book.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of moving parts. But I really appreciate

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Speaker 2: your point in stepping back from life's busy schedule to say,

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Speaker 2: whoa time out? What makes me tick? What am I

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Speaker 2: here for? What can I do in my daily life,

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Speaker 2: you know, both physically and mentally, to have a better,

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Speaker 2: more satisfying experience, you know, before they put me into

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Speaker 2: the ground. And I think that's something that everybody should do.

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Speaker 2: But we get most people get so caught up in

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Speaker 2: the busyness of their lives and they're kind of just

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Speaker 2: going through life as a zombie or on automatic pilot,

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Speaker 2: and that's why to use your illustration mentally. We know

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Speaker 2: certain things are going to be unhealthy for us, but booe,

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Speaker 2: there we go. We engage in those activities anyway. And

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Speaker 2: that is a serious human flaw that will continue and

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Speaker 2: persist until you sit down and think your way through it.

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Speaker 2: If not with just yourself or a friend, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe with a therapist. Maybe that's the kind of intervention

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Speaker 2: you need. But I do think a lot of this

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Speaker 2: can be resolved by going all the way. And so

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Speaker 2: you know, Socrates knew this over two thousand years ago.

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Speaker 2: Know thyself was his motto, right, and two thousand years later,

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Speaker 2: we still haven't learned that lesson because life just keeps

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Speaker 2: us too busy, too distracted, and it throws a bunch

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Speaker 2: of like glitter at us that you know, like like squirrels,

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Speaker 2: We run to it, and it distracts our attention from

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Speaker 2: some of the more deeper and meaningful things that we

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Speaker 2: can get out of life. So that that is a yeah,

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Speaker 2: a preface to the nuts and bolts that leads to

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Speaker 2: meet me tries to to address, you know, it does

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Speaker 2: try to dive into the actual biology of human behavior.

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Speaker 2: There's a wide variety of explanations for why we do

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Speaker 2: the things we do. It's very textual, but you've got

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Speaker 2: to start somewhere, and to this day, as you as

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Speaker 2: you're pointed out on the last time we got together,

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Speaker 2: there's a whole slew of articles on my website, author

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Speaker 2: Bill Sullivan dot com that kind of follow up on

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Speaker 2: some of the things, some of the concepts that the

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Speaker 2: book introduced. Because new science is coming out every day

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Speaker 2: that teaches us all, you know, a little more about

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Speaker 2: what makes a human being tick.

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Speaker 1: And I think that you know the macro of what

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Speaker 1: makes a human tick, and then we kind of narrow

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Speaker 1: down the focus to the micro of what makes me tick,

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Speaker 1: you know. And because what will work for Bill depending

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Speaker 1: on what we're talking about, won't work for Craig and

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Speaker 1: vice versa. You know, I've just started. I'll finish your

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Speaker 1: book first. But I listened to the first bit of

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Speaker 1: a book by a journo researcher called Abigail SHREI I

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Speaker 1: might have talked to you about this, I'm not sure,

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Speaker 1: but she wrote a book called Bad Therapy. Have you

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Speaker 1: heard of that book?

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Speaker 2: I think I have, but I haven't read it.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, It's basically she just points out something which when

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Speaker 1: you talk about it, you go, well, yeah, of course

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. And her assertion followed up and followed

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Speaker 1: backed up by like a lot of great conversations with

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Speaker 1: therapists and some pretty solid research, is that for some

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Speaker 1: people talk therapy is really productive and valuable and therapeutic

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Speaker 1: in the literal sense, but some people going back and

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Speaker 1: revisiting what were perhaps traumatic experiences, does the opposite. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't help, It doesn't heal, you know. And so which

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Speaker 1: did not say talk therapy, for example, is good or bad.

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Speaker 1: It depends on the individual, which is like you know,

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Speaker 1: nuts and almonds and seeds for some people are awesome,

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Speaker 1: for some people they're not. You know, for me, working

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Speaker 1: for myself not having a boss for the last forty

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Speaker 1: years is for me a perfect model because I get

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Speaker 1: to be able to do what I want and create

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Speaker 1: my own thing. Fall down, fuck up, learn, grow, evolve.

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Speaker 1: I don't work well in that kind of employee situation framework,

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Speaker 1: and it's not that it's good or bad, it's just

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Speaker 1: what works for me. So I think one of the

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Speaker 1: challenges for us is, you know, trying to understand our self.

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Speaker 1: You know, almost n equals one that what is my

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Speaker 1: what's my body telling me, what's my emotional system telling me?

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Speaker 1: Like for me, standing in front of an audience is

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Speaker 1: like my happy place. For someone else, it's the most

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Speaker 1: terrifying thing they'll ever do. And it's not that being

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Speaker 1: in front of an audience is good or bad. It's

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Speaker 1: you know, just like nuts are not good or bad,

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Speaker 1: or like six hours sleep is not good or bad.

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Speaker 1: But it all comes down to the way that I

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Speaker 1: guess our individual physiology, psychology, emotion responds to a range

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Speaker 1: of different variables, right, and trying to understand that for ourselves. Right,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like I just overshared their

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Speaker 1: I apologize.

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Speaker 2: No, you didn't over share it at all. But I

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Speaker 2: think that's a key insight that a lot of people

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Speaker 2: need to realize, is that, you know, from a geneticist

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Speaker 2: point of view, the number of genes that are different

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Speaker 2: between any two individuals anywhere in the world is almost

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Speaker 2: statistically negligible. It's pretty astonishing how similar, you know, are

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Speaker 2: almost identical most human beings really are. Even if you

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Speaker 2: look at non human primates, there's still only about one

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Speaker 2: point five percent genes that are different than us than

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Speaker 2: in US than say at chimpanzee. So at a genetic level,

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Speaker 2: we're in ly similar, and yet the human experience and

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Speaker 2: human behaviors are so wonderfully diverse. It's just astonishing the

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Speaker 2: number of differences that can arise despite the fact that

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Speaker 2: our genes are virtually identical in many important ways. And

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Speaker 2: what that tells me is that genes do have an

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Speaker 2: important role. Don't get me wrong, but there's a lot

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Speaker 2: more to life than what your genetic makeup is. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's a really hopeful thing to walk away from.

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Speaker 2: That message should fill people with hope because the ability

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Speaker 2: to change is there, and the key to that change

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Speaker 2: is reconstructing your environment. And that might sound like common

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Speaker 2: sense to some people, but it's something that many of

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Speaker 2: us do not take the time to think about, or

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Speaker 2: we're too afraid to make those changes in order to

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Speaker 2: create a better opportunity or a better world for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Can you okay, reconstructing your environment? Did you just say

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Speaker 1: the cada change is reconstructing your environment?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: You can literally change the way your genes are activated

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Speaker 2: by putting yourself in a different environment. And when I

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Speaker 2: say environment, I mean all sorts of external things, pretty

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Speaker 2: much anything that's non genetic, and a lot of these things,

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Speaker 2: at least after you grow up, are in your control

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Speaker 2: to manage, at least to some degree. Yes, you know,

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Speaker 2: you certainly don't control your early childhood and what your

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Speaker 2: mom and dad did you know while you were young,

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Speaker 2: but once you reach a certain age, you have a

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Speaker 2: lot more agency and control over that environment. So I'm

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Speaker 2: not just talking about like physical features in your environment,

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Speaker 2: although those are important, but I'm talking about the particular

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Speaker 2: culture that you're in. You know, the neighborhood that you

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Speaker 2: live in, the people you associate with, the food you

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Speaker 2: put into your body, the drugs you avoid putting into

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Speaker 2: your body, y the you know, the the company you keep,

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Speaker 2: and what you ingest. At an intellectual level as well. Okay,

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Speaker 2: what sort of media do you consume, what sort of books?

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Speaker 2: You know, Internet, websites, social media, because you've got to

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Speaker 2: treat that just like you know, you're you're surveying the

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Speaker 2: types of foods, and there's junk foods and there's healthy foods.

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Speaker 2: It's the same way with anything that you put into

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Speaker 2: your brain. Okay, you have to you have to have

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Speaker 2: some kind of filtration system to keep the junk out

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Speaker 2: of your head, you know, or else you can be

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Speaker 2: setting yourself up for disaster. And that's what I mean

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Speaker 2: by recreating a good environment and one that is filled

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Speaker 2: with things that don't just like make you temporarily happy,

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Speaker 2: but make you sustainably content. You know, if you know

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Speaker 2: yourself and you do these exercises to know yourself, you

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Speaker 2: can imagine and create in your mind what sort of

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Speaker 2: environment you would thrive in, and then try to create

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Speaker 2: it in reality.

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Speaker 1: That's so smart. I love that. I am so. I

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Speaker 1: grew up in the country, dock and sow country, you know, trees,

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Speaker 1: forests country, and now I live in the city and

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Speaker 1: I love the city. But I hate the city. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's part you know, there's parts of it I love,

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Speaker 1: there's parts of it. I fucking hate the city. But

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Speaker 1: so where I live, I decided the best I could

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Speaker 1: do was while living I actually, for the most part,

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Speaker 1: I love the city. It's very convenient. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of awesome stuff and resources. But I planted in my

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Speaker 1: garden bamboo trees which run around the perimeter of my

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Speaker 1: whole house. And so there's bamboo trees that I plan

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Speaker 1: twelve years ago. They're now about four five stories high.

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Speaker 1: They're like forty fifty feet high. So where I am

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Speaker 1: right now, which is in my office, all I can

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Speaker 1: see is green trees, like a wall of green. And

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Speaker 1: no one can actually see my house because all you

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Speaker 1: can see is the trees. But on the other side

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Speaker 1: of the trees is suburbia. His Benjamin is the concrete jungle.

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Speaker 1: But I know, I absolutely know that being in having

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Speaker 1: an office where I look out at trees is good

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Speaker 1: for my nervous system. It's good for my it's good

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Speaker 1: for my creativity, it's good for my cognitive function. And

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Speaker 1: also he's backed up. Yeah, and also I created for

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Speaker 1: myself an office which is not particularly opulent, but it's

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Speaker 1: just really comfortable. Like I have this like I'm always

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Speaker 1: in bare feet. I could stick my foot up right

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Speaker 1: now and show you don't need to see it. But

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Speaker 1: the clothes that I work the clothes Knight, the clothes

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Speaker 1: that I work in, nice metallica shirt, by the way,

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Speaker 1: I love that Gidea. The clothes that I work at

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Speaker 1: impact how creative and how productive I am. The having

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Speaker 1: bare feet does something for me, Like my feet in

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Speaker 1: the carpet opposite me. Over there, about a meter there

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Speaker 1: are two huge leather chairs with big arms that are

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Speaker 1: old and comfortable. Right, there's lots of light, lots of

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Speaker 1: glass in this office. So my point is this, if

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Speaker 1: I go to university we call it UNI here college.

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Speaker 1: If I go to college and I do, which I've

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Speaker 1: got obviously a space at the university where I can go,

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Speaker 1: my productivity is three out of ten because I'm literally

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Speaker 1: sitting in essentially a cubicle and I'm looking at just

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Speaker 1: white fucking walls, and it's just for me, the least

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Speaker 1: inspirational environment ever. And so even if I'm doing the

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Speaker 1: same thing, I know I will do better where I

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Speaker 1: am right now. And for me, it's about that is

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Speaker 1: that you know, consciously creating an environment or as you said,

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Speaker 1: constructing or reconstructing an environment that will help you be

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Speaker 1: closer to optimal. But I think, also back to what

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Speaker 1: you said seven or eight, ten minutes ago, is that

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Speaker 1: we tend to do a lot of what we do

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Speaker 1: in this on this kind of autopilot programming where I'm

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Speaker 1: doing today what I did yesterday just because I did

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Speaker 1: that yesterday and the day before and the month before

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Speaker 1: and the year before. And it's not that it's an

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Speaker 1: optimal way of doing things. That's a familiar way of

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Speaker 1: doing things, and I'm kind of comfortable with it, and

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Speaker 1: so I'll stay with what I know, even though it's

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Speaker 1: a three out of ten outcome, because we like familiarity

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Speaker 1: and certainty and predictability and comfort, and even though it's

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Speaker 1: not optimal, comfortable, So all keype doing it. It takes

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Speaker 1: courage to reinvent your operating system rot.

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Speaker 2: It takes courage, but it can be really fun. And

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Speaker 2: maybe this is the scientist in me, but I've experimented

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Speaker 2: with all sorts of configurations of this room as well

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Speaker 2: as different environments to find out where I'm most productive

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Speaker 2: when I'm doing a certain thing. Yeah, okay, And I

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Speaker 2: also appreciate your point very much about getting outside and

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Speaker 2: getting back to nature to kind of stimulate the creative juices.

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Speaker 1: Yes, okay, So.

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Speaker 2: I really enjoy when I have to write working from home.

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Speaker 2: Of course, I have an office back on campus, but ironically,

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Speaker 2: I don't feel that I'm as productive writing in that office, okay,

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Speaker 2: which does not have a beautiful view out the window,

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Speaker 2: and I'm constantly interrupted by this or that, you know,

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Speaker 2: And you know, it's not that I'm bashing that. I

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Speaker 2: just expect it. You know, when you're there, it's easy

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Speaker 2: to interrupt Bill and talk to him, and that's perfectly fine,

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Speaker 2: but I have to know that going in that I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to be as productive. Then I can be undisturbed.

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Speaker 2: Here I have a beautiful view outside this window. Here,

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Speaker 2: I push my desk straight up against the window on

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Speaker 2: purpose so that I can watch, you know, in the yard.

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Speaker 2: I can see birds, and you know, I see children.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes the birds swoop down and attack the children, just kidding.

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Speaker 1: Every now and then they carry a small one away,

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Speaker 1: and it makes my day, to.

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Speaker 2: Be honest, But I think you get what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: There's these beautiful trees, wildlife comes by, you see squirrels,

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Speaker 2: you see birds, you see all these other things, and

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Speaker 2: it just it stimulates the creative juice. It's something about

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Speaker 2: that greenery and the natural environment, blue skies. It just

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Speaker 2: really gets my juices flowing. And maybe that's not for everybody.

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Speaker 2: You know, some people might require like a cubicle sterile office,

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Speaker 2: and that's where they work best because there's really literally

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Speaker 2: nothing else to do, nothing to distract them. And again,

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Speaker 2: exactly it's worked for me, correct, and it's not right

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Speaker 2: or wrong it's like what works for you individually, and

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Speaker 2: like I've spoken to many people who you know, go

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Speaker 2: many people have said to me, I don't know how

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Speaker 2: you do your job, like because for my like I

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Speaker 2: don't have a weekly wage, I don't have a set income.

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Speaker 1: I don't have sick pay, I don't have holiday pay,

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Speaker 1: I don't have you know, I don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of the benefits that a lot of people have and deserve.

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Speaker 1: I don't have those because I chose this other path,

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of vulnerability and a lot of

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Speaker 1: risk with that.

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Speaker 2: And you'd like talk to some pretty cool people that

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Speaker 2: are amazing.

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Speaker 1: Well I'm not even being well you, you're fucking around

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Speaker 1: a bit. But like I, I honestly think it's a

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Speaker 1: privilege that I get to talk to you. I truly

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Speaker 1: mean that, and I know that without my podcast, I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't meet you. I wouldn't get to connect with you

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Speaker 1: and so many other brilliant, amazing people. And it's like

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Speaker 1: it's apart from the fact that it's it's fortunately it's

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Speaker 1: worked out, Like we have an audience, there's a commercial

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Speaker 1: reality to the show. We have sponsors, which is amazing.

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Speaker 1: We've heard in lots of countries, which is awesome, and

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Speaker 1: I love all of that because it's good to make

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Speaker 1: them do right. But I love more the fact that

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Speaker 1: in the last six years of this show, but I've

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Speaker 1: been more educated through this medium, through meeting people like you,

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Speaker 1: than I have through any other thing that I've done,

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Speaker 1: including my PhD. My PhD is amazing, but it's not

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Speaker 1: It doesn't compare to this, and some people would find that,

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Speaker 1: you know it is. It's a very different kind of

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Speaker 1: learning and a very different outcome. But for me this

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Speaker 1: has been a real blessing. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people find the idea like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're a bit of a unicorn. You get

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Speaker 1: on this and you are very comfortable, very you know,

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Speaker 1: this is you. You're about as anxious as you would

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Speaker 1: be having a coffee in a chat with anyone. But

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Speaker 1: most people are not you. You know, there are so many

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Speaker 1: people that doing the same thing you're doing now, which

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Speaker 1: is I'm doing an interview or a chat with Craig.

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Speaker 1: It's being recorded, it's being filmed, it's going to go

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Speaker 1: around the world, thousands of people going to listen to that.

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Speaker 1: Just that reality. Some people get on the podcast and

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Speaker 1: they're terrified. They even though they're normally good communicators, they

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Speaker 1: can't string three words together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I've run into that in my profession as well,

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Speaker 2: because I like to encourage all scientists and physicians to

431
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 2: get out there and do more of what I'm doing,

432
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: you know, to get out there and speak to the

433
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 2: general public, tell them what's up. But I've encouraged some

434
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 2: people to do that, and I feel bad that I

435
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 2: did that because they can't do it. They don't have

436
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: that skill, they don't have that talent, and I didn't

437
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 2: appreciate that early on. I stand corrected. You know, this

438
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 2: is not for everybody, but fortunately there's folks like you

439
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: who take a chance on those in the Ivory Tower

440
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 2: and put them on the air and learn more about

441
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 2: what they do and what makes them tick, and you

442
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: expose their thoughts, opinions and expertise to a huge audience

443
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: that they would never have access to without people like you.

444
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 2: You know. So, I think podcasters like yourself who have

445
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 2: stepped up to get you know, professionals and expert opinion

446
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 2: into the ears of people who don't normally get a

447
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 2: chance to hear it. I think that's a wonderful thing

448
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 2: that technology allows us to do now.

449
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: And I think, and I'm not talking about myself here,

450
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: but I think if you get the right person talking

451
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 1: to somebody, the right interviewer or the right podcast to

452
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: talk to somebody, even somebody who's a bit clunky and

453
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: nervous and uncomfortable, done the right way, over time, you

454
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 1: can create a good outcome. But having said that, there's

455
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: been about ten interviews that I've done over the last

456
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: six years which never saw the light of day. They

457
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: were just, oh my god, so bad. Obviously, I'm not

458
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: going to mention a name. I'll tell you one or

459
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: two off air, but a very very very famous person

460
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: that I did that nearly everyone would know this person's name.

461
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 1: Amazing writer, amazing mind, amazing book, terrible, terrible on a microphone.

462
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: But anyway, so we can't be experts at everything. Everybody's

463
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: got their strength and weaknesses. And also, you know, there's

464
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: one thing to have knowledge, expertise, understanding, there's another thing

465
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: to be able to share that you know comfortably and

466
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 1: to be under you know, like you don't. I'm sure

467
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: right now you don't feel any particular pressure. But for

468
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: a lot of people I can almost, well not almost.

469
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: I can sense their anxiety. I can sense the pressure,

470
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: the stress, the nerves, you know, and yeah, it's it

471
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: just is what it is. You can't switch it off.

472
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: You can't. You can't take that away for them. So,

473
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: you know, I try to be as aware and understanding

474
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: as I can and kind of walk them through it

475
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: a little bit. I've stopped quite a few podcasts five

476
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: minutes in and I've said all right, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

477
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: I've said all right, we're going to start again. I

478
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: just want to talk to you before we start. I go,

479
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: you going okay, I said, But the you that I

480
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: spoke to before we started recording, that's the you that

481
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: I want, because that you people will love. And I said,

482
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: the moment that we started recording, you were different, right,

483
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: And I said, I want you to just try hard.

484
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: I know it's hard and it's probably not great advice,

485
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: but it's the best of got Just chat with me,

486
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: just like it's you and me. We're having a coffee,

487
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: and if you fuck anything up, we'll leedit it out.

488
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: If you say something that at the end you think,

489
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: oh I wish I didn't talk about my mum. Could

490
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: you take that bit about my mum out. The answer

491
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: is yes, we can so because people overthink everything and

492
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: when you're overthinking, you're not being you, you know, and

493
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: you can't connect.

494
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: All right, So Mady comes in quick one hundredcent.

495
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: Now, what I didn't tell you was in one of

496
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: my groups, I told everyone I was chatting with you,

497
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: and I said, give me some questions for the great Man.

498
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: So here's what I'm going to do. We're going to

499
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: do about if you're right with this, twenty to thirty

500
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: minutes of me just asking you, which is not a

501
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: very Craig model, but I'm going to do it anyway,

502
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: and one or two minutes, it doesn't matter, as long

503
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: as you want. But here's my idea. I'm going to

504
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: go speak about this for a minute. You tell us,

505
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: and then I go cool, and then another one and

506
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: another one. So I want to tap into some of

507
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: your genius, all right.

508
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 2: I'll do my best, all.

509
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: Right, So I want to talk. I want you to

510
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: talk to us a little bit about from a genetic

511
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,719
Speaker 1: or a biological point of view, how that intersects with

512
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: will power, self control and discipline, will power, self controlled discipline,

513
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: wherever you want to go with that. What are your

514
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: thoughts on that.

515
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: That's a that's a great question, because there have been

516
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: some high profile studies that have been done in the

517
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: past that have looked at self control and discipline in children. Okay,

518
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 2: there's this famous experiment called the marshmallow test, where you

519
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: basically tell a child put a marshmallow in front of

520
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: them and tell them, Okay, you can eat that now,

521
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 2: but if you can wait fifteen minutes, I'll give you

522
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: two marshmallows. Yeah, okay, And I forget which percentage of

523
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: children can actually wait the fifteen minutes, but there's a

524
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: fair number of them that cannot, okay, and then a

525
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: fair number that can, and those that can were viewed

526
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: as having more self control, and then, I don't know,

527
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 2: fifteen twenty years later, the experimenters analyze where these children

528
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: ended up in life, and according to their results, those

529
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: who the children that exercise self control did better on

530
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: just about every single metric you can imagine. They had

531
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: better grades, they had better graduation rates, they had better

532
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 2: higher paying jobs, their marriages were stable, blah blah blah.

533
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: Almost everything you looked at. People with self control had

534
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: better life outcomes, And if you think about it, that's

535
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 2: not a real revolutionary discovery. You know, it's makes common

536
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 2: sense if you think about it, because people with self

537
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: control have the discipline to take a time out and

538
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: think about choices, perhaps more rationally or with you know,

539
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: less emotion and more logic. So the theory went. Now

540
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 2: that famous experiment has come under fire recently, and because

541
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 2: some people have failed to replicate it. You know, they

542
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: can identify children that have more self control than others

543
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: at the time, but then when they do these longitudinal

544
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: analyzes down the road, they don't see correlations between better

545
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: self control and better life outcomes. So it's really difficult

546
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: to say where self control fits in into life's success.

547
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: And you can also argue that what happens in children

548
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: is not what happens down the road and adults. Yes,

549
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: the other thing that was important Craig in the initial

550
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: studies is that they didn't control for socioeconomic factors. So

551
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: some of the things that could have really influenced a

552
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: child's positive life outcomes might not have been self control,

553
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 2: but it might have been because their parents were more

554
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: well off and they could afford too, They could afford

555
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: better schools, things like that, extracurricular activities and so on

556
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 2: so long story short, These sorts of analyzes in people

557
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: are incredibly hard to do because there's so many confounding

558
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: variables that can come into the equation. So if someone

559
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 2: tells you that you don't have the genes for self control,

560
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: where you don't have the early environment that would have

561
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: set you up for life's success, I would say, you

562
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 2: know that might not be true, and what you can

563
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 2: do instead is to take proactive steps to improve your

564
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 2: self control. There are talk therapy sessions that have been

565
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: demonstrated to increase a person's discipline. There are also medications

566
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 2: that can cause people who might have ADHD to focus

567
00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: better and have more self control in that capacity. And

568
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: there's simple books you can read that walk you through

569
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 2: meditation exercises that can, over time allow you to develop

570
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 2: better self control on your own. Yes, so there's an

571
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 2: assortment of activities that you can engage in and you

572
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 2: should have hope that those things are going to work.

573
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: You just got to find the right formula that fits

574
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 2: your biology.

575
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 1: And I was thinking about that particular study, like if

576
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: I was that kid because I was a fat little kid,

577
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: I loved food, but you would have just scarred I

578
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,479
Speaker 1: would I would have inhaled that, and then I would

579
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: have gone looking for others, right.

580
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: Had some people tell me they would have inhaled theirs

581
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 2: and then stolen everybody else's.

582
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 1: Well, literally my name was Jumbo for a reason.

583
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: Right.

584
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: But also I think, you know, like some of the

585
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 1: kids might have been hungry, some might have not been hungry.

586
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: You know, some might have had a more savory predisposition,

587
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: some might have a more like, let's you know, if

588
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: you put up you know, like some cheese and crackers,

589
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: somebody might go, oh, yeah, I love you know, I

590
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: think there's all right, So that's cool. Next one is

591
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: this was this from Scott, one of my followers. Can

592
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: doctor Bill talk about genetics and addiction?

593
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I wrote a whole chapter on that in

594
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 2: the book, but I'll be happy to give you a

595
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: little synopsis of it. And the way I've approached it

596
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 2: was the way scientists approached it. Shortly after the human

597
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: genome was sequenced. This was about twenty four years ago. Now,

598
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: scientists actually actively sought out Ozzy Osbourne's genome. So Ozzy Osbourne,

599
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 2: you know, the heavy metal music start, has notorious problems

600
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 2: or had notorious problems with drugs and alcohol throughout the

601
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 2: majority of his early career. Fortunately he was able to

602
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: turn that around. But back in the day, scientists viewed

603
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 2: him as the perfect specimens and he was actually one

604
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 2: of the very first people on the planet to get

605
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: his genome sequenced by scientists. Wow, you know, you would

606
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 2: have thought they went after intellectuals or top athletes or

607
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: something like that to figure out Michael Jordan's are, yeah,

608
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 2: that make these people so uniquely talented, But in a way,

609
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: they were interested in Ozzy Osbourne's talent of you know,

610
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: putting away a liquor store like inside an hour or

611
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: something you could just drink like a fish, right.

612
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 1: And lo and behold.

613
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: When they analyzed his genome, they found a never before

614
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: seen mutation in this gene called ADH four, which is

615
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 2: encodes an enzyme that works in the liver to detoxify alcohol.

616
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: So it's pretty remarkable the mutation he had would have

617
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 2: cranked out tons of this enzyme. So Ozzie Osbourne literally

618
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: has a liver that can just demolish alcohol, and it

619
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 2: explains in part why he could put away so much.

620
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 2: Now it doesn't explain why he might have been addicted

621
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: to the substance. So this is where something called GWOSS

622
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: studies come in. This is genome wide association studies. And

623
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: in the past twenty four years, sequencing a genome has

624
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: gotten very easy to do and very inexpensive, not like

625
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 2: when Ozzie Osbourne had his first done. So lots of

626
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 2: people have done this. Now hundreds of thousands of people

627
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: have basically handed over their genome to science, including people

628
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: who struggle with drugs and alcohol. And one of the

629
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,479
Speaker 2: main common features out of looking at all these people

630
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 2: who struggle with addiction and all the people who don't,

631
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: is that the people who struggle with addiction have a

632
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 2: hyperactive brain because of a series of mutations that crank

633
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 2: or that cause what is called a GABA deficiency. Gaba

634
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,959
Speaker 2: is a neurotransmitter in the brain, and it inhibits the brain.

635
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 2: It's it calms it down, okay, And it's a really

636
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 2: essential neurotransmitter that you need in order to focus, to

637
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 2: maintain attention, and even to fall asleep, you know, because

638
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: you because you need to inhibit the brain's ability to

639
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 2: go in all sorts of different directions. But that's what

640
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 2: uh an addicts mind goes through. And again I'm just

641
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 2: generalizing here. There's obviously other explanations, but for a lot

642
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 2: of the people who had their genome sequence, they have

643
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: some sort of gene that leads to a deficiency in

644
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 2: the neurotransmitter GABBA, which results in a hyperactive brain. Now,

645
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 2: the chemical formula for alcohol looks very similar to the

646
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 2: chemical formula for that neurotransmitter, and in fact works very similarly.

647
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 2: So when people ingest alcohol, they're basically given themselves a

648
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 2: medicine to calm their brain down. Unfortunately, it's a highly

649
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: addictive medicine. So that's the bad news. The good news, Craig,

650
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 2: is that now that we know this, and that a

651
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: lot of people who struggle with alcohol have this common deficiency,

652
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 2: we can now design compounds that look like GABBA but

653
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 2: are not addictive, and therefore therapeutically treat people who struggle

654
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 2: with alcoholism. I get very excited about it.

655
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so fascinating. We've had a guy on this

656
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: show a bunch of times who has had a really interesting,

657
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: well colorful, colorful life. His name's Nicole. He would say alcoholic, addict,

658
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: clan and cyber for a long time now spent quite

659
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 1: a lot of I think fifty and sixteen seven eight

660
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: years in pre and like, you know, interesting life. And

661
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: now he's clean and sober and he works with other

662
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 1: people and he's turned his life around and amazing. But

663
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: he tells the story about when he had his first

664
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: drink of alcohol. He was twelve, and he said it

665
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 1: felt like he'd come home. He said, it felt like,

666
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is what's been missing. And he said,

667
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: the actual stuff itself. I think it was something like

668
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: I forget, I don't drink booze, so but it was

669
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: some cheap, shitty alcohol and he said it tasted horrible,

670
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: but what it made him feel, what it did to

671
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: his brain. He said, I knew then that I would

672
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: never stop drinking, you know, like that was the And

673
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,919
Speaker 1: he was twelve years old. And I'm like, I can't

674
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: even grasp that. But that story, with what you just said,

675
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 1: well that makes sense. Yeah, it really.

676
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 2: Enlaightened me because I always kind of thought about, like

677
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 2: the first question you asked, this was all about discipline,

678
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 2: this was all about self control. And what this tells

679
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 2: us is that, you know, not to dismiss the self

680
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 2: control component, but these people genuinely struggle with maintaining focus.

681
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 2: And I had a fellow come up to me at

682
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: a book signing once, specifically talking about how he was

683
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 2: an alcoholic and still struggles with it this day because

684
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 2: he found early on, when he was young, he could

685
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 2: not sleep without taking a drink because his brain was

686
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: just going in a million different directions. And when he

687
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 2: read about the Gabba deficiency, he was like, it all

688
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 2: made sense to me, yes, And he was basically self

689
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: medicating himself in order to get to sleep. But then, unfortunately,

690
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: you know, it, became addicted to the substance and he

691
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 2: required more and more just to achieve that sedative effect.

692
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: So that's the danger of alcohol. It works as an

693
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: elixir at the beginning, just like you know your guest

694
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 2: found out at a very early age. Wow, this is

695
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 2: making my brain feel normal. I'm going to keep taking

696
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 2: this stuff. We need a pharmaceutical that can do what

697
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 2: alcohol can do, but without the addictive properties exactly.

698
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: And it's not that I was just going to say,

699
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: it's not that people want the booze. As much as

700
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: they want the outcome of the booze, they want the effect, right,

701
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: all right, let's plow on, Stacy, dear doctor Bill, how

702
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: much free will do we actually have? Now, I know

703
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 1: that's a whole podcast, and I know that that is

704
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: that you can't even scrape the surface in two minutes,

705
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: But give it a go, doc, so or however you

706
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: want to talk about free will.

707
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 2: I get asked that question a lot, and I share

708
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 2: her fascination with it. I have not come to a

709
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: definitive answer, but the more I think about the topic,

710
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 2: the less free will I think we actually have. Now,

711
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 2: what does that mean for us on a day to

712
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 2: day basis? Probably nothing, because we don't really go through

713
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 2: life thinking of out whether all of our actions are

714
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 2: determined or not. I mean, when you go and cross

715
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 2: the street, you're still going to look both ways. You know,

716
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 2: whether you believe the universe is deterministic or not, it's

717
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: you know you're going to look both ways. So you know,

718
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,760
Speaker 2: I think you know. And anyone who's read my book

719
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 2: comes away with a more humble sense of free will.

720
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 2: And not only does that make you think about yourself

721
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 2: in different philosophical terms and maybe what life is all about,

722
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: but it engenders a lot more empathy for other people

723
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 2: who do things that you would not agree with. Okay,

724
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: think about that for a moment. If you had their genes,

725
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 2: if you had their experiences, you grew up in their culture,

726
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 2: you would be them. Okay, you know we are confined

727
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 2: by our biology and our unique set of experiences. That

728
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 2: equation makes us who we are, and it also makes

729
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 2: anyone else who they are. So you have to have

730
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 2: a lot more humility when you approach someone who has

731
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: differences in opinion or political beliefs or what have you.

732
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 2: And instead of just hating each other right off the

733
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 2: bat or ignoring one another, get into a dialogue, get

734
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 2: into a conversation, learn about what those experiences are that

735
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 2: have led you to such different beliefs. I think that's

736
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: a much healthier way for human beings to function as

737
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 2: a society. But yeah, the short answer, you know, when

738
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 2: you consider genes and the environmental forces that you don't

739
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 2: have control over, the random luck or bad luck that

740
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 2: happens to someone that is completely outside of your control.

741
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: There's a component in my book that talks about microbes,

742
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 2: the microbiome, and maybe pathogens in your body that can

743
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 2: affect your behavior. There's just all sorts of things outside

744
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 2: of your control that really make you wonder. I don't

745
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 2: have as much free will as I thought I did.

746
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's okay, yeah, yeah, I love it. All right.

747
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 1: This is from Sky. It's a nice name. Sky. Thank

748
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: you for your question, Doctor Bill. This will probably cover

749
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: this a little bit, but maybe how do I she's

750
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: thought this question through. I feel like this might be

751
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: for you, Sky. How do our genetics shape our psychological

752
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 1: responses to stress, anxiety, and depression. Are there specific genes

753
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: linked to resilience and vulnerability?

754
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 2: Yes, there's certainly a lot. I mean, genes build our brain, Okay,

755
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: they governed the construction of our brain. They also govern

756
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 2: the neurochemistry that runs through it, so that's controlled at

757
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 2: a genetic level, but it can also maybe be controlled

758
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 2: to some extent by an epigenetic force. You knows in

759
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 2: the environment can epigenetically change the genes that are functioning

760
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: in our brain. Epigenetics has been intimately shown to be

761
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 2: related to memory and experience. Recall, even the microbes in

762
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 2: our gut, and this is one of the things that

763
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 2: really blew my mind when I was researching Pleased to

764
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 2: meet me. The intestinal microbiome that we all have makes

765
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 2: ninety percent of our serotonin, which is one of the

766
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 2: major mood regulators that functions in our brain. So if

767
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 2: you're not taking good care of your intestinal bacteria, which

768
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: you can get a little sense of control over through diet,

769
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 2: you could be dysregulating your mood and whether or not

770
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 2: you're predisposed to depression because your serotonin is all out

771
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 2: of balance because of these bacteria in your gut. It's

772
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 2: a really remarkable arena of research. Now, the question also

773
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 2: asked about resilience, because there's this fascinating group of people

774
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 2: that even they might have experienced ACES, which are adverse

775
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 2: childhood experiences in their youth. You know, a lot of

776
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 2: people who experience those grow up to have major behavioral problems,

777
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 2: predisposition for depression and suicide. But there's a considerable number

778
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 2: of people who are resistant to those negative outcomes, and

779
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: they've always perplexed psychologists and scientists alike. And here's where

780
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: we have another series of GWAS studies, Craig, these genome

781
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 2: wide association studies. So you get a bunch of people

782
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 2: who experienced ACES and those who had negative outcomes, you

783
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 2: sequence all their genomes, and those who were resilient, you

784
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 2: sequence all their genomes, and then you do a comparison.

785
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 2: And one of the most interesting genes to fall out

786
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 2: of that comparison is that the resilient people have a

787
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 2: mutation in a gene called BDNF, which is I think

788
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,439
Speaker 2: I got that right. It's a brain is a brain

789
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: protective factor. And I apologize I can't remember the name

790
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 2: right off at the top of my head, but it's

791
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 2: fascinating that a gene that is mutated in people who

792
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 2: are resilient functions to protect the brain. So now you

793
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 2: can formulate a hypothesis that resilience might not even be

794
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 2: all about, you know, psychology. These people may actually have

795
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: a gene that is helping to protect their brain.

796
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it makes sense, it makes sense. All right,

797
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: let's do a couple more. I don't know who this

798
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: is from.

799
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 2: That didn't brain derived neurotropic factor. Sorry, that's what it is.

800
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, We've got another guy. I always trying to remember

801
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: it as well, because we've got another guy here called

802
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 1: David Gillespie who is a research he's actually a lawyer,

803
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 1: but a researcher in Australia, is one of Australia's most

804
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:59,959
Speaker 1: prolific rod is. I have him on once a fault

805
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 1: and he's talk spoken about that before. And as you said, it.

806
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: I'm like, I know it, I know it. What is it?

807
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: I knew it was new? Is it newtropic? Is it?

808
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: What's the last two factor? New neurotropic? Neurotropic? Yeah? Anyway, yes,

809
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: all right, Here we go to what extent do our

810
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:29,280
Speaker 1: genes affect or determine personality traits like introversion and extraversion? Again,

811
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,959
Speaker 1: I guess these are these are like, well, we don't

812
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: exactly know, but a bit I don't know what do

813
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: we actually know that?

814
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 2: We don't know it for sure? Yeah, because and I

815
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 2: think we touched on this at least once on your show, Craig,

816
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 2: when we talk about genes and behavior. Yes, it's not

817
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 2: a single gene, it's not two genes. It's usually hundreds

818
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: of genes. So when you're talking about something like introversion

819
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 2: or extraversion, which actually I'm really I'm not a huge

820
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 2: fan of using those terms because everybody, everybody is a

821
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 2: little bit of an introvert and an extrovert is just

822
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 2: a matter of when you turn one or the other

823
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 2: on and what sort of effects it has on you.

824
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 2: And of course it's not a binary situation. There's a

825
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 2: spectrum that some people fall right in the middle. And

826
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 2: they can. You know, they're comfortable with both of those

827
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:23,760
Speaker 2: personality types.

828
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 1: They call them an ambivert or something.

829
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think they do.

830
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: I think they do. Yeah, I'm with you. Sorry to interrupt.

831
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: I just think that. No, no, fine, Like sometimes because

832
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: I do what I do, people think I'm an introvert, sorry,

833
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 1: an extrovert. But I live by myself. I'm very happy

834
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: by myself. If I'm at a public event and I'm

835
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: not speaking, there's nothing in me that wants to be

836
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: the center of attention. I'm very happy in the background,

837
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 1: you know. So I don't think. Yeah, But at the

838
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 1: same time, when I'm doing my job, I'm comfortable to

839
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 1: do it. But I don't feel compelled to draw attention

840
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: to myself when I'm not doing my job, you know

841
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,439
Speaker 1: what I mean. So, yeah, I think I don't think

842
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: it's a real hard kind of lawn.

843
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I do know that some scientists are trying

844
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 2: to utilize the genome sequencing technology to try to identify

845
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 2: markers that might be associated with whether someone's going to

846
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:26,720
Speaker 2: be introverted or extroverted for a statistically significant period of time.

847
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,439
Speaker 2: So it's a valid question, it's a very good one.

848
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 2: Scientists are working on it, but there's only going to

849
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 2: be a certain percentage of a genetic component. And that's

850
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 2: what we see with all of these complex traits like

851
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 2: learning and intelligence and even things like height. Okay, there's

852
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 2: only a certain percentage that the genetic contribution adds up

853
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 2: to the rest is environment really yeah, yeah, this is

854
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: like so I'll give you a quick example for height.

855
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:00,280
Speaker 2: Most people think, well, that's got to be a pretty

856
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 2: simple trait. Probably only a handful of genes, no hundreds

857
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 2: of genes contribute to height, Okay, but the genetic component

858
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,720
Speaker 2: is strong. By some papers, it gets up to eighty

859
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 2: percent okay, eighty percent genetically controlled, but that still leaves

860
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 2: twenty percent environment control. And those are the sorts of

861
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: things like nutrition. Okay, if you grow up malnourished, I

862
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 2: don't care what kind of genes you have, you're not

863
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 2: going to be as tall as you should have been.

864
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: And you can do the same thing for many other uh,

865
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: you know, complex behaviors like intelligence. Intelligence is one that

866
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 2: you know, scientists can't even define what it is yet

867
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 2: they're searching for the genes for it, which kind of

868
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 2: makes me laugh. But you know, here we are and

869
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 2: you'll see some papers with scores that it's pretty much

870
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 2: fifty to fifty. You know, there's a fifty percent genetic

871
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 2: component to intelligence. However that research group defines it, and

872
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 2: there's a fifty percent environment mental component.

873
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: Wow, that is. That is And I think the intelligence

874
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: also intelligence as a spectrum, isn't it. It's like you

875
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 1: and I know some smart people and in some situations

876
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 1: they're fucking idiots.

877
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,319
Speaker 2: Well that's and that's just it. And however smart you are,

878
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 2: there's only so many hours in a day and only

879
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 2: so many brain cells in your head. You're going to

880
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 2: know a lot about a very tiny sliver of things.

881
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 2: And that's how I view myself. You know, there is

882
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 2: so much in the world that I don't know a

883
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 2: damn thing about. The things that I do know a

884
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,359
Speaker 2: little bit about and feel comfortable talking on your show, Greig,

885
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,439
Speaker 2: just a little sliver of the what the universe has

886
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 2: to offer. But I'm happy to share and talk about

887
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:47,280
Speaker 2: that sliver.

888
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it depends what your room you're in.

889
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm in a room I'm pretty smart. Sometimes I'm

890
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: in a room I'm the dumbest in the room. You know,

891
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:58,800
Speaker 1: it's context dependent. All right, this is not on the

892
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: questions that got sent through, but as you were talking,

893
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 1: this is this is not the most savory of topics,

894
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: but I think it's broadly relevant, so we can cut

895
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 1: it out. I'm sure you know something about it. So

896
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: one of the things that I didn't expect when I

897
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: started working in gyms in eighteen, I owned gyms for

898
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 1: most of my adult life, trained thousands of humans. About

899
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 1: sixty five to seventy percent of my clients that I

900
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 1: worked with for women. And one of the really common

901
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: experiences of a lot of women that I worked with

902
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 1: was constipation, regular constipation. And I know it's not the

903
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: most regular constipation. It's a naxiemoron. Well, yeah, that's all right, consistently,

904
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: that is a good point. That could be the title

905
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 1: of the show, regular Constipation. I'm sure that'll get a

906
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:57,280
Speaker 1: lot of clicks. Yeah, they'll give people the shits now. Yeah,

907
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 1: it's like and I know, like, I know, this is

908
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 1: not a very savory topic. But the reason is whenever

909
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: I talk about this, I actually get quite a lot

910
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: of feedback because people go, yeah, I know, it's embarrassing

911
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: and system, but that's me. Like, I like I talk

912
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 1: to people who don't go to the toilet for three, four, five,

913
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: six days at a time. Oh yeah, and it's it's

914
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 1: I don't know, and this is just anecdotal. This is

915
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 1: my experience. But it's wildly disproportionately women over men in

916
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 1: my experience. Right, that's not science, that's just my experience.

917
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: What what are some of the consequences of, you know,

918
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 1: a body that hasn't gone to the toilet for three

919
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: or four days? Like surely when we talk about the

920
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 1: gut biome and we talk about we talk about the

921
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 1: impact on you know everything, you know psychology and you

922
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 1: know IQ and like energy and everything. What are your

923
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 1: thoughts around that? Have did you talk about that in

924
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 1: your book at all or have you ever explored it?

925
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:08,839
Speaker 2: Well, what I have talked about in the book are

926
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,879
Speaker 2: intestinal bacteria, and that can certainly be related to gut

927
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 2: motility or lack thereof, which would cause the constipation. And

928
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 2: as a consequence of doing all that microbiome research, I

929
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 2: found out much more about the gut and the coal

930
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 2: and then the rectum than I ever wanted to know.

931
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 2: And to your point, most people will move vowels once

932
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 2: a day. It's okay to skip a day Okay, you know,

933
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 2: sometimes that happens, and it is dependent on your diet.

934
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 2: If you don't eat a lot of food, you might

935
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 2: skip a day. It's not a big deal. You'll be

936
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 2: just fine. But I think most physicians, and again just

937
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 2: to remind your audience, I'm a PhD, not an MD.

938
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 2: I don't see patients, but I think most doctors will

939
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 2: tell you if you're not going, if you're not going

940
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:05,399
Speaker 2: for two or three or four days, you might want

941
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 2: to get that checked out. That doesn't sound normal. So

942
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,319
Speaker 2: some of the things that could be responsible are the

943
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 2: person is not eating enough, or what they are eating

944
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 2: is the wrong thing, okay, And what I mean is

945
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 2: maybe they're not getting enough fiber in their diet. So

946
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 2: that surprised me a little bit when you said there

947
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 2: was a gender difference, because I would expect women actually

948
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 2: to be eating better than most men. Maybe that's not

949
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 2: the case. It's hard to say, but for people who

950
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 2: do struggle with constipation, some of the easier things to

951
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 2: try would be changes in diet, and you can google

952
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: for fiber rich foods and introduce these gradually, or else

953
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 2: you'll get some stomach cramps. Probiotics have also been shown

954
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 2: in some studies, not all in some studies to provide

955
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 2: relief for constipation as well, and that is also intimately

956
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 2: linked to perhaps changing the structure of the microbiome towards

957
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 2: a more healthier one. So yeah, I don't think it's

958
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 2: normal to go or not go for that long. So

959
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 2: I would get that, I would recommend those clients get examined.

960
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 2: That that just doesn't sound right tall, But I think

961
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 2: there's things you can do that are probably you might

962
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 2: not even need to see a doctor if you can

963
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 2: find ways to change your diet, get more fiber in

964
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 2: their avoid certain foods that can cause constipation. And you know,

965
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 2: I hate to try to work it out that way.

966
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:48,479
Speaker 1: Too, Spum, look at you, just being hilarious unintentionally. Well,

967
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 1: and again everyone, this is not a prescription or advice,

968
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 1: of course, because neither of us medical doctors. But I

969
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 1: have I have cilium husk every morning, so every morning,

970
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 1: and again this is not advice, but I've told my

971
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: breakfast for I have oats, I have almond, so I

972
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 1: have almon and milk, I have protein powder, and I

973
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: have silium husk. And I have silium husk is about

974
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 1: seventy five percent fiber and you know, not that any

975
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 1: of you need to know this, but there's no problems

976
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 1: over here at Camp Harper.

977
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 2: That is a very safe way based on what I've read,

978
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 2: that is a very safe way to add more fiber

979
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 2: because it's really difficult to eat forty grams of broccoli

980
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 2: a day or something like that, So using fiber substitutes

981
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 2: are perfectly safe if you follow the directions carefully.

982
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 1: Oh, you're a good man, and we might call this

983
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 1: episode you and poo. Yeah, maybe let's not do that

984
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: because you don't want to promote that. How do people

985
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: find you? Follow you, connect with you? Remember everyone? The

986
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 1: book is called Please to Meet Me, Jean's Germs and

987
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 1: the Curious Forces, the makers who we It's available on audible.

988
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 1: I'm halfway through. It is really really good. I'm really

989
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 1: enjoying it. I'm learning a lot, So I encourage you

990
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: to at least go have a bit of a listen

991
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,919
Speaker 1: well by the actual book if you're a reader rather

992
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 1: than a listener. Where else do you want to point

993
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 1: people doc.

994
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 2: Please check me out at www. Author Bill Sulliman dot com.

995
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 2: You can hook up with me on social media there

996
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 2: and follow along to any other articles I've been writing

997
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 2: recently and I got a milling list. You can sign

998
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 2: up for there as well.

999
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:41,800
Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, Well, I appreciate you, I enjoy you. Every

1000
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:43,919
Speaker 1: time I talk to you, we'll say goodbye off air,

1001
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 1: but for the moment, good Doc, thank you again. Enjoy

1002
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 1: your month and I'll see you soon.

1003
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 2: I want to thank you Craigan. Thanks for all your

1004
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 2: listener questions. They're the best.

1005
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 1: Thanks Buddy,