WEBVTT - Read This: The Three Words That Made George Saunders a Writer 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:04.000 Hey there, it's Frick Morton. I'm currently hosting seven Am 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.120 and this week at Schwartzmedia we're celebrating a very special 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.320 first birthday. Our colleagues that Read This have been making 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:12.960 their brilliant podcast for a year now, and every week 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.960 host Michael Williams talks to the best writers in the 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.919 world about their lives, their craft, and what keeps them going. 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.000 Michael Williams is among the best interviewers working in Australia 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.400 today and listening to him on the job is the 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.800 kind of gentle therapy I like to think should be 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:32.400 subsidized by Medicare. Today, we're going to play you an 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:35.040 episode that we on the seven Am team really loved. 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:39.040 It's with George Saunders, an extraordinarily generous writer himself who 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:43.240 has written one of my favorite novels, Lincoln in the Bardo. 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:45.760 But first I wanted to chat with Read This host 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:54.920 Michael Williams. That's coming up. Michael, congratulations on a year 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.800 of making Read This. It is a phenomenal product and 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.640 you are an absolute mark at the craft of interviewing. 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.360 How's it going, thanks, Rick, Look, it's going really well. 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:10.039 It feels a bit surreal that we're a year in already, 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:12.959 it feels like just yesterday. We were kind of kicking 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.520 around ideas for formats and the shape of the thing, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:18.600 and would it be more like a book club or 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:20.880 would it be interview based, and would we have panel 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:25.160 discussions and all kinds of high concept ideas, And then 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.479 somehow we settled into a groove because what we add 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:33.480 the reminder of is that writers are really interesting people 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.400 if you give them a chance to just talk about 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.680 their stories, talk about their lives, talk about the ideas 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:43.360 behind the books that they write. And so week one 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.600 we visited Helen Garner's house, and since then it's just 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:47.400 been go, go go. 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:49.720 I think when you start with a visit to Helen 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.480 Garner's house, you're probably on the right track. What have 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:54.640 been your favorite moments throughout the series so far? I 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.680 imagine you've got some wonderful nuggets collected away somewhere. 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.080 One of the wild things about reaching an entire is 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:03.560 looking at the role call of people we've spoken to. 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.800 And actually, I'm hard pushed to think about an author 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.000 whose work I've loved in the past couple of years, 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:10.960 who we haven't had a chance to chat to on 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.480 read this. You know, I got to go and visit 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:16.240 Richard Flannagan at home in Tasmania and talk to him 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.880 about question seven, which was wildly good. We spoke to 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.119 Gabrielle Zevin about her book Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow. 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:27.079 You know, Melissa Lukashenko was so generous and so funny 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.760 and smart about the ways in which she writes trauma 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.600 but also writes comedy at the same time, and the 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:37.040 intersection between those two things is kind of wildly good. 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:41.560 Even Mary Beard, the classicist and ancient Rome expert, came 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:43.880 on the show, and that was kind of surreal to 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:47.160 hear her talk about Emperor's past in ways that were 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.720 both erudite and funny. It was a delight. 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.519 Yeah, I love that. And of course George Thought is 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:57.720 himself so generous. I have read A Swim in the 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.600 Pond in the Rain and listened to his interviews over 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.880 the years. He's a teacher of the craft, right, and 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:07.200 then you get to chat to him and kind of 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:10.120 be a little bit greedy, I guess, and pick up 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:11.079 some tricks for yourself. 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:15.119 Oh, one hundred percent. But George Saunder's generosity, I think 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:17.360 is the main thing that characterizes him. He's one of 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:22.080 those writers who other writers adore and revere because he 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.720 does ask questions, he does give of himself. He does, 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.840 as you say, partly as a teacher, but also partly 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:31.919 I think that's the temperament of the man. One of 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.040 the things I do when preparing for an interview with 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.920 an author is I assiduously read and listen to other 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.280 interviews they've done. And George Saunders is a legend. He's 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.040 given so many interviews. And one of the things that 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:46.720 really struck me about what he brought to read this 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.320 was none of it I'd heard anywhere else before. He 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:55.240 tells a personal story about a moment that's very influential 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:58.000 in his own writing career. But he told it in 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:01.760 a way that was genuinely fun. It wasn't him just 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:05.400 repeating something wrote that he'd stood up in front of 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.160 a classroom and done a million times before. It was 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:11.720 an answer to a question, and it inspired what I 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:13.280 think is a really wonderful chat. 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:14.320 God. 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:14.760 I love that. 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:17.320 Michael, Thank you so much. You've done an extraordinary job. 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.520 It's an absolute pleasure. I will keep doing it. And Rick, 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:22.960 when your next book comes out, expect an invitation to 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:25.320 be on the show. Forget said when I am come 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:25.920 on read this. 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:28.520 I don't think you should pre lock me in, but 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:29.320 why not. 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.159 It's fine If the book's no good, I'll ask hard 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.200 hitting questions of you, I promise. 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:41.960 Coming up in just a moment. The three words that 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:43.680 made George Saunders a writer. 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:53.080 For me, the way to think about it is, I 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.919 have prepared beautifully. I've lived both stupidly and wisely. I've 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:01.039 read good and bad. I've talked bunch of shit about writing. 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.800 You know, all this stuff, but at the moment of truth, 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.680 that's all back there. You know, behind this damn and 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:10.080 your job is to be kind of a bouncer or 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:13.040 kind of a controller, to say only what I need. 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:13.480 Thank you. 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.080 That's the voice of George Saunders, maybe the definition of 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.719 a writer's writer. He's a personal favorite and a favorite 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:26.280 for many, a literary and cultural sensation. David Foster Waller 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.400 said he was the most exciting writer in America. Zadie 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.719 Smith said he'll be read long after these times had passed. 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:36.480 Even famous comudgeon Jonathan Franzen had nothing but praise. He said, 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.400 he makes the all but impossible look effortless. We're lucky 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:44.080 to have him, but forget the accolades. The main thing 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:48.680 to know is George Saunders writes funny, moving, electrifying fiction, 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.920 and he's a true original. His big break came when 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.640 he was selected to the creative writing program at Syracuse 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.160 University in upstate New York, where he studied under the 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:03.480 celebrated shorts story writer Tobias Wolf. Since then, he's become 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.240 known both for his award winning writing and for his 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:12.000 generosity as a literary figure, teaching a famous commencement speech, essays, articles, 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.280 and I want to ask him what makes him tick. 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.440 I want to know the phrase or the idea, the 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:27.599 snippet of advice or frequently recalled quotation that helps him 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:32.080 do what he does. I call this game life Sentences, 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:38.880 and today I've asked George Saunders to play from Schwartz Media. 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.640 I'm Michael Winniams, and this is Read This a show 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:51.360 about the books we love and the stories behind them. 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:53.920 George Saunders, what's your life sentence? 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:57.520 Well, the one that came to mind when you wrote me, Michael, 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:01.520 was from Joyce. It was Silence Exit Island. Cunning. It 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.280 sounds very very literary of me to have that one, 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.479 But I was actually came from a period when I 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:09.360 was in my twenties in Chicago and I was kind 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:11.239 of circling the drain a little bit. I was living 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:13.720 with an aunt of mine and I'd just been laid 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:15.920 off from a roofing job, and I, you know, I 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:17.520 had the idea of being a writer, but I'd never 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:19.360 done much of it, and it was just kind of, 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:21.920 you know, one of those low moments when nothing was 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.160 going right. So a couple of friends of mine from 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:29.240 high school picked up on this, you know, mordant tone 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:31.800 I was going into, and they took me to something 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.320 called the Car Show. So we go to the car 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:36.000 show and it was nice, and just the fact that 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:38.440 they thought of doing it was kind of an uplift. 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:40.800 And then we went to lunch afterwards at one of 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.280 those kind of fake Irish pubs, which is now this 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:47.640 is on the South Side Chicago. It's like mcquinley's or whatever, 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.360 you know something. But as we were going in, there 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:54.760 was a cardboard cutout of James Joyce, and coming out 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:58.320 of a little cartoon bubble from his head was that phrase, 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:00.920 which I think is from Portrait of the Arts, A Silence. 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.160 Ex Island County but something about that phrase just riveted me, 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:06.280 and I thought about it the whole lunch, and it 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.440 really changed my trajectory, you know, in that period where 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:12.240 you're going from I'd like to be a writer to 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.360 I'm actually going to be one. So even now I'll 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.520 get into a certain doubtful period about a book or 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:21.400 about a story or just in general analytical silent se 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:23.800 gland counting, and that still kind of speaks to me. 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.080 You know, you go to a better class of fee 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.120 Irish pub than I do if they have a Giants 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:31.280 Joyce cut out by the door instead of e Liprocal 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.360 and that's you were moving in exalted circles clearly. 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.520 Well, it was amazing, really because this part of Chicago, 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.719 the Southside, and I don't think it's a particularly a lot, 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:42.600 not a literary hotbed, but somebody in that place knew 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.320 who Joyce was, and I guess went through the book 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:47.400 and pulled that baby out. And why it would be, 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:50.280 why that would be a good thing to advise your 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.360 pub customers of, I don't know, but I've always I 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.319 thought that was so funny, because you're exactly right, it 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.560 would be, you know, not not expected to see a 0:08:58.640 --> 0:08:59.360 Joyce cutout. 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.040 Have you thought about what it is that so speaks 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.040 to you? I mean, those three words and concepts pull 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.680 against each other in interesting ways. 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:09.880 Well, well, the thing that was weird about it was 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.000 I just I knew exactly what he meant. And I 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:13.720 hadn't done any writing at that point, you know, but 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:15.920 I knew exactly at least what that meant to me. 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.400 And the way I've taken a part in the past 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.360 was the silence was shut up and do it. Like 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:23.800 at that point, I was doing a lot of that 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.160 kind of inner theorizing that artists do, like, well, what 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.760 I'll do is I'll have a six book cycle about 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:32.040 my childhood, you know, with featuring a talking raccoon or something. 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.680 So that big theory, which is really your way of saying, 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.240 I'm too afraid to try, you know, and I don't 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:39.080 want to try until I totally know what I'm going 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:40.880 to do. And I was also doing a lot of 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.160 literal talking about it to friends and no when I 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:45.880 write my book, and so one is just shut up. 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:48.439 You know, even if you don't do anything, it's better 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:50.400 for you to be quiet about it, you know, than 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:51.520 to blab. 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:51.520 On and on. 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:54.520 So silence exile, I think for me at that time 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.880 meant I kind of blundered my way into this crazy 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:01.760 situation that living in my Ends basement on a ticking clock. 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:03.840 I didn't have a job. I think at that point 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:05.840 maybe I was working at a convenience store, you know, 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.040 like that kind of thing just seemed to you that 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.760 everything I did was making it worse. So I had 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.280 this idea that I would soon an act of bolting 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.040 out of there and going back to where my parents 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.000 were in Texas and kind of giving myself a clean slate. 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:20.800 So that was the exile part. Cunning is the part 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.720 that really spoke to me, and I think it indicated 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:27.280 a shift. Okay, so before that, I was thinking, if 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:31.520 you only do certain things in your writing, you'll be great. 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:35.000 So if you're just truthful, or if you just do 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.800 that Hemingway esque one true sentence, you'll make it, or 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:40.640 you know a whole of things that you only had 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.800 to abide by these dictims and you would be good. 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:47.840 And I think the cunning meant to me, No, you 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.400 have to do whatever it is it gets you noticed. 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.480 You have to figure it out. That's part of what 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.480 your job is is to get into some writing and 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:59.560 see if it's interesting or not. And if it's not, 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:01.680 the end of world you can fix it. So in 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:03.840 the same way that you might be cunning about a 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.240 relationship or fixing a car, you know as well, you 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.120 got to roll up your sleeves, get in there, mess 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:14.520 it up, be stymied. That's when the aftual work begins. 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.600 That's okay, that's not a sign of failure in coming. 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:21.320 In particular, there's an idea of deliberateness. I think, instead 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.800 of being kind of buffeted along by the tides and 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:28.760 fortunes and whatever else is happening, the cunning person is 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.920 choosing their path, which seems valuable. 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:34.520 Yeah, I think, especially because you know, I think everyone 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:38.199 likes the idea that if you just enact a certain mindset, 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:42.200 your art will be beautiful. That's great, that's but that's autopilot. Actually, 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.880 you know, if I just live by this credo, I 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.319 never have to think again, never have to struggle again. 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:50.959 But I think what I felt in that moment was, well, 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:54.520 every work of art is a struggle against itself, really, 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:56.640 you know, you start out strong and then the thing 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.120 becomes its own trap sort of. 0:11:58.200 --> 0:11:58.440 You know. 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:02.360 So the cunning is to say, make it work, stupid, 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.199 figure it out and make it work. And on one level, 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.720 it's saying the reader is is someone you have to 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.640 enact the cunning upon. But really, once you get into it, 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:18.080 it means you have to be cunning in succeeding in 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:20.640 charming that person. And then what I found out in 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:22.560 the years to come is to charm a person, you 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.880 can't condescend to that person, you know, So cunning in 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.360 a certain way is to say to the reader, I 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:30.880 let you in one hundred percent. I am going to 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:33.439 try to charm you. But we understand that charm means 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.320 respect at the ultimate level. 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:41.440 So as a slightly down it heeled early twenty something, 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:46.280 had you already identified that it was the creative age? 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:47.080 You know? 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:49.439 Was that what you were feeling thwarted by? Was that 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.520 why you were derailed because you knew you wanted to 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.560 write and you hadn't quite found a way or was 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:56.920 it less well defined than that? 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:58.679 No, that was it, And you know it was a 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.520 little bit like I Irad Glass here has talked about 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:03.800 this thing where your taste is highly developed but your 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:07.640 abilities are lagging behind. So I could read joice and 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.320 totally understand why he was a genius, and then I 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.800 would fart out my little thing and go, oh god, 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.439 that's not it, you know. So is that that frustration? 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.400 But also for me there was in retrospect, I think 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.240 it was a I would say it was a bit 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:24.120 of a class thing where it was so dear to 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.720 me this dream of being a writer that I was 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.320 too scared to start, because in starting, you could reveal 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:32.640 that you didn't have what it took and then you're done. 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:34.280 So it took me a while to go, well, no, 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.400 actually you try and fail you started, you know. But 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:39.920 so I think with Joyce I felt something like that, like, okay, 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.280 you can actually step into the boxing ring and see 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:45.360 and if you get hit, that's just means the start 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.319 you started, you know, as opposed to I'm a boxer 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.280 forever if I never get in the ring because I've 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:51.920 never lost. 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:57.400 It's not that many years between that self described low 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:03.600 moment in a Chicago pub and you being accepted the Syracuse, 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.480 you know, getting the call from Tobias Wolf. 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:08.800 It could have been less than a year, because that 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.480 was the spring I went back to Texas, wrote three 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:14.800 stories and the one story that got me in there, 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.240 and then I was in by the next Christmas. Not 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:19.880 kidding around that Joy's quote compelled me to go ahead 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.480 and leave a relationship and go back to Texas and 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.960 start over. And that was when I actually did start writing. 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:28.280 It was actually real, a real turning. 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.560 Point, George. I'm picturing listeners like rushing out to the 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:35.520 nearest Irish pub seeking inspiration from every Guinness Ad they 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.040 can get. And I hope that you know their fortunes 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:39.480 will change well and if. 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:41.400 Not, if not, you're in an Irish pub, so it's 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:42.480 still kind of a win. 0:14:47.800 --> 0:15:00.240 We'll be right back. It's funny hearing George Saunder's talk 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.480 about early doubt when he's so synonymous with success at 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.760 this point, not just his insanely ambitious, polyvocal ghost story 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:10.479 Lincoln in the Bado, which won the book A prize, 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.520 but also his collections of short stories. The phrase rock 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:18.880 star short story writer seems unlikely, but Saunders wears it comfortably. 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.640 He first made his name in that form. There was 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:26.040 Pastoralia in Persuasion Nation. The most recent collection was called 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.600 Liberation Day, and frankly, if you haven't read any of them, 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.880 I'd start with tenth of December. It's a work of genius. 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:36.840 But to hear Saunders describe it, finding his voice took 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:40.600 some time, if I remember correctly, For you, early on, 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:44.560 when you were playing around with your writing and your creativity, 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:50.720 it wasn't automatically going to be pros songwriting comedy. You 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:55.480 had these other kind of sirens calling you creatively. How 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.400 did that narrow down to the singular kind of vision 0:15:58.440 --> 0:15:59.840 for yourself and your own writing? 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.600 I think because I more clearly sucked at everything else. 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:07.280 I tried songwriting, yeah, and all those things. I think 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:11.200 I I could be sort of six out of ten, 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:13.800 near five out of ten, you know, but at what 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.040 I now understand is a critical moment in a work 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:18.520 of art, I just didn't have that strong of you 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:20.760 about it. Like I write a song, go yeah, that's 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.120 got some chords, and you know, but that sort of 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.400 killer instinct that makes you go, none shall pass, no way, 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.840 you are not my fucking song. You're too pathetic. But 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.040 with prose, I, even in that early period of writing, 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.400 I had such obnoxiously strong opinions about it. You know, 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.520 I'd write something go I cannot live with that. With prose. 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:41.360 If I read something I wrote and then went and 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:44.760 read Hemingley or read Joyce or read Grace Paley. Later on, 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.040 I could really feel what was lacking in mind, you know, 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.520 sometimes it was lacking in sincerity, sometimes it needed more rewriting. 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:57.160 But there was never any question for me of you know, 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:00.480 I could always discern quality in prose. That was really 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:02.920 why I quit the other things. But anyway, you know, 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:04.800 your taste will lead you, and in my case, it 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:09.400 was like, well, if I have always nine point ninety 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:14.880 nine level opinions about prose and six level opinions about songwriting, 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:16.520 you know you got to choose the former. 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.000 Sounds to me like you had incredible clarity of purpose 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.200 about your own writing. But the shift to being read 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:26.600 and what that told you about those opinions you had 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.879 about prose and in particular your own pros will you 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:33.080 write in your reading of your own work? Did other 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.720 readers change the way you understood your work. 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.080 There was a long period where I wasn't actually looking 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:39.960 at my own opinion. I was kind of thinking, well, 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.960 in a Hemingway story, this happens, or what I like 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:46.879 about that joy sentence is this, and then sort of 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.480 trying to artificially, like with pincers, take that quality and 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:53.320 put it into my own work. That never worked. But 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.760 as soon as I kind of started relying on this 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.960 sort of inner sense of what was cool or fun 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.800 funny was especially important early then then I got readers. 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.240 And strangely, at that point I kind of didn't. I 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.560 wouldn't say I didn't care about readers, but like when 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:12.159 I was writing that first book, it was coming to 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:16.040 me so strongly that sending it out was almost like 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.280 an afterthought. I thought, well, they don't have to like it, 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:20.440 but if they don't, they're wrong, you know, that kind 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.280 of feeling, although of course it's a little bit like 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.480 I hope they'll take it. But when I got right 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.840 with my pros, when I started learning how to listen 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.439 to my own opinions, then it started to go better. 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:32.880 And even now, that's always the game, is like am 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.680 I on a given day, am I in touch with 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:39.160 that opinionated part of myself or not? Or the other 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.879 thing is sometimes you just start poasting on truisms, you know, 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.800 or because even on a day when I'm writing really badly, 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.840 I'm still thinking all the correct truisms, but they just 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.920 aren't really real to me, you know, So it's complicated. 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.159 You mentioned sincerity there as being an important kind of 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:01.639 market of whether something's working on, and I'm interested in 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:05.959 that relationship between knowing the craft and thinking about, you know, 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:07.800 all the things that you wanted to do and the 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:12.240 kind of end outcome that you're striving for, and sincerity 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:17.679 and finding that voice or that kernel that isn't instrumentalized immediately. 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.760 For me, what I mean by sincerity in a prose 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:25.480 sense is a lack of agenda. So in other words, 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:27.679 you're you know, you're on page two point six and 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:31.080 you've just made a nice moment. Part of you wants 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:33.520 the moment to be like this or wants it to 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.320 cause that that part of you is not to be 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:40.840 trusted because it it's an agenda from without. So the 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:44.080 sincerity means, Okay, what did I just do? What's the 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.200 next thing that could happen? It's the best? You know, 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.760 what's what's the next best sentence? And that you know, 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:53.200 that's really tricky because it's that kind of intuition isn't 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:57.040 always available purely, you know, And so for me, rewriting 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.120 is sort of like giving myself a lot of chances 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:01.280 to have a sincere reaction to what I just did 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.760 as opposed to a contrived reaction. And I'm a pretty 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.600 controlled person and so I have a lot of tendency 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.720 to contrive. So for me, that is like, well, it's 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:14.560 a long practice in learning to not contrive. Basically. 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.919 The other element that you mentioned was humor and making 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.679 jokes and making people laugh is almost the ultimate incontrivance 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:26.800 in terms of there is an outcoming and objective and 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.240 there's a kind of building momentum when you're doing it. 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:31.960 That's so interesting because you're absolutely right, you know. I 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.880 remember in high school I had this wonderful teacher named 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:36.919 Miss Williams that we all adored, and she was so 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.520 smart and was having us read really good stuff and 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:43.160 I always wanted to impress her, and the only way 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:44.879 I could really was to get a laugh. But she 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:48.280 was very discerning. So if you made a joke in 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:50.840 our class and it bombed, you were in a lot 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.320