1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed Q and A, where we 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more. 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Are Michael Thompson and Good morning, Adam Lang. 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 2: Good morning Michael, Adam. 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: The question today is a four day working week just 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: a pipe dream? 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: Now? 8 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: Obviously there's been a lot of talk about this this 9 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: week with the ACTU, the Australian Council of Trade Unions, Adam, 10 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: for your benefit, can you know that you are not 11 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: going to let me get away with the initialism? It's 12 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: called for a four day working week as part of 13 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: its submission to the Roundtable and Economic Reform next week. 14 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: The government has rejected it basically said, look, the ACTU 15 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: is welcome to put these suggestions for it doesn't mean 16 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: it's going to become government policy. Business doesn't like it. 17 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: I think this great quote describing it as a populist 18 00:00:54,560 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: anti productivity thought bubble from the unions and there there's 19 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: an element in that, the anti productivity part, which I 20 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: think is really interesting because this suggestion from the ACTU 21 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: comes at the same time as we've got the Reserve 22 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: Bank warning about really what is becoming a productivity crisis 23 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: in this country, putting the handbrake on economic growth. So 24 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: got a lot of people excited when this four day 25 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: working week suggestion came up. Do you think, Adam, that 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: we will ever get to a four day work week? Look? 27 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: I do, but I don't think that means that it 28 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 2: can work for everyone. In fact, I don't think it 29 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 2: can work for everyone if you think about communication right, 30 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: and I know this is slightly left field, but you 31 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 2: and I, Michael, talking to each other in a studio 32 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 2: in person versus a phone conversation versus a virtual meeting, 33 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: they're very different. Like in person, we can both watch 34 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 2: how each other's expressing themselves verbally, nonverbally. We can see 35 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 2: when each other is in pressure or night, or happy 36 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: or not. It gets progressively difficult when you're in a 37 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: virtual environment or on the phone, and some work just 38 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: simply can't be done any other way than in person. 39 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 2: But I think at a minimal level, if you care 40 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 2: about your team, you care about inducting people, getting them 41 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: into their job so they understand it, they're safe at work, 42 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: there's certain things that just have to be done in person, 43 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: and so I don't think the four day working week 44 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: can be made equally available and beneficial to all, I 45 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: think the best people to decide that are the teams themselves, 46 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 2: the businesses themselves. So sports an obviously an example, right, 47 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 2: you know, construction, retail, hospitality. You have to be there 48 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 2: to deliver that service well by yourself or as a teammate. 49 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: And the best teams are always the ones that have 50 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 2: a connection and that is often best informed in person, right, 51 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 2: and that where people are working together to safely deliver 52 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 2: the best possible customer service and obviously profit for companies 53 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: in a very competitive market. To me, that does lean 54 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 2: way towards being in person a lot because you can 55 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: literally see each other, see how we're acting, what we're 56 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 2: role modeling, what's working, what isn't. 57 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: And so this kind of then gets into the efficiency 58 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: and the productivity side of it. I'm curious to see 59 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: kind of how this productivity challenge that we have that 60 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: was made very very clear this week by the Reserve Bank. 61 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 2: And has been a case for decades. 62 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is no surprise, it's just really been kind 63 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: of brought to the fore by some of the commentary 64 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: this week. Whether this was just a case of really 65 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: bad timing then from the ACTU to come out with 66 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: their four day working week within twenty four hours of 67 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: the RBA warning, because it feels as though there is 68 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: an element of trying to reap the rewards of being 69 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: more productive or be productive without actually getting to that 70 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: level of productivity. Yet. 71 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's really the qualifying factor, isn't it. Can 72 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: it work for businesses and employees alike? And that is 73 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 2: not an easy question to navigate. I think there's most 74 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: jobs will defer to at least sometime in person so 75 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: that you can be connected to the company you work with. 76 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: Many teams will only be able to deliver that together. Yeah, 77 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: and some of the if you're an emergency services person 78 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: in a hospital, a restaurant, in a sporting arena, they 79 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 2: have to be delivered in person. And you know, thankfully 80 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 2: we still get to do things in person. You know, 81 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 2: it's not so long ago that we were stopped for 82 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: doing that and that was ghastly right. But there have 83 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 2: been some experiments with this which I think really useful data. 84 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 2: There's been trials in the UK, there's been trials in Iceland. 85 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: Those particular trials have stated that they have had no 86 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: drop in productivity with better well being and retention. So 87 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: in those instances they found a way to make it 88 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 2: at least productivity neutral or even better. 89 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: So is that by working a four day Yes. 90 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: By working a four day week and obviously restricting who 91 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: delivers their service to those limited times. Okay, and they've 92 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: had to reschedule, re roster, like maybe decide on opening 93 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: hours or availability times. You know, there's been lots of 94 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: ways that they've tested doing that. In New Zealand, a company, 95 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: Perpetual Guardian, was able to do that and showed a 96 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 2: productivity jump of twenty five percent. In some ways you 97 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: look at that and go, that's fantastic. Then you're wondering 98 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 2: what were you doing before you know it stopped you 99 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: from achieving that. Manufacturing Obviously, in person, healthcare, entertainment, hospitality, 100 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 2: they will always face bigger hurdles in how to make 101 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 2: this work well and still be productive. I think it's 102 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 2: really difficult in the realm to mandate. So to your question, 103 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 2: do you ever think we'll get to a four day 104 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: working week? When I answer is yes, but it doesn't 105 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: mean it can work for everyone, and I don't think 106 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: it will ever work all of the time. Right. I 107 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: think it should be a choice based on commercial realities, 108 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 2: not a government government mandate because they don't know these businesses, right, 109 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 2: they don't know how to operate them. And I think 110 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 2: so we'll see it in some sect and companies, but 111 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 2: not really as a national template. 112 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: It is interesting that we get into them the argument 113 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: or the discussion over kind of how many hours should 114 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: we be working when you can still be productive. It's 115 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: based on the five day working week of forty hours 116 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: right on six days, you know, yeah, exactly, yeah, And 117 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: it was really I think Henry Ford, wasn't it that 118 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: kind of popularized the five day, forty hour working week, 119 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: and some countries have continued to kind of play around. 120 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: Play around makes it sound like they're just experiment experimenting 121 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: with employment. But I know there was a study done 122 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: by the OECD into productivity of nations and I think 123 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: Luxembourg came out on top as the most productive nation, 124 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: and the average working week in that country is twenty 125 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: nine hours, which does say something about the fact that, Okay, 126 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: if you can become more productive in the way that 127 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: you do your job and the way that we run 128 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: our businesses, then you can actually maintain that level of 129 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: productivity by perhaps working fewer hours, Which leads me to 130 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: AI and technology. Do you think this is the key 131 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: to it? Are we at this moment in time now 132 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: where we have the potential to make so many roles 133 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: more productive because we have the support of technology. If 134 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: there's going to be a time for a four day 135 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: working week, is now the time to be having that conversation? 136 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: Okay, Yes, there's a However, of course being a recovering 137 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 2: economist on the one hand, yes, on the other hand, 138 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: so in essence, AI is available to everybody. So if 139 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: everyone becomes more productive, then in a competitive market, you've 140 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: still got to compete with that. It's just the tide 141 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: is lifted, right, so everyone's more productive. What's going to 142 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 2: make you stand out and grab more market share than 143 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: your competitor? So I do think this is the time, right, 144 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: But it's always the time, you know, to test and 145 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: learn from what can work best. But AI, the benefits 146 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 2: from it are going to be relative to all and 147 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: relative to your industry and the competitive set. So I 148 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: don't know that that is the cure all for the 149 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: productivity question. 150 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: Okay, in terms of the overall question, will we get there? 151 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: Maybe definitely it's a channeling oasis there, but it is 152 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily anytime soon. But it is still a 153 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: good conversation to have, and I do admire the fact 154 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: that the Act you chose this time to put it 155 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: forward because they are worthy conversations, right. 156 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 2: I totally agree. I think in the contest of ideas, 157 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 2: the timing should be always and so I think that 158 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 2: to the government's credit, they're having this forum for discussion 159 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: on productivity. I think that's great. I think it's way 160 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 2: too rare and way too often it ends in little 161 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 2: more than talk. You know, most of these ideas that 162 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 2: are being talked about now have been around for some time. 163 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 2: They've been the discussions of white papers, commissions, inquiries, so 164 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: on and so on, but they just haven't been done. 165 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 2: And it's I understand the Prime Minister's caution around, you know, 166 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: what they took to the election and what they can 167 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: expect to do from here. But I think we do 168 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 2: need to see far more action. I think we've had, 169 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: We've got sufficient talk, and I think there are some problems, 170 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 2: including the cost of housing, that demand a solution much 171 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: sooner than the next election cycle. 172 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: All right, but as far as the four day working 173 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 1: week goes, you take Monday off, I'll take next Tuesday off, 174 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: let's just let's just experimented, all right. 175 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Adam, Thank you Michael. 176 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: And remember, if you've got something that you'd like to know, 177 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: then please send three your question on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, 178 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: or at Fear and Greed dot com todau and we 179 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: shall delve into it on an upcoming episode. Are Michael 180 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: Thompson and this is Fear and Greed Q and A 181 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:00,719 Speaker 1: do you