WEBVTT - The Salt Path author’s passionate defence 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:11.560 From the Australian. This is the weekend edition of The Front. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:17.479 I'm Claire Harvey. The Salt Path, a best selling memoir 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.880 by Rayna Winn, seems to be following what's becoming a 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:25.400 predictable trajectory. Faced with adversity, a protagonist embarks on an 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:29.600 epic quest, finding meaning on the way. The resulting memoir 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:35.360 is inspiring and labeled unflinchingly honest. Copies fly off the shells. 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:38.160 The manuscript is optioned and turned into a hit movie, 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:43.280 this one starring Gillian Anderson and Jason Isaacs. But similar 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:46.720 to James Fray's A Million Little Pieces, a memoir about 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:49.599 drug and alcohol addiction, which had to be reclassified as 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:54.720 semi fiction after various exaggerations and fabrications were uncovered, and 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:58.880 Belle Gibson's The Whole Pantry, a cancer miracle cure cookbook 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:03.080 written by A Kancas who never had cancer. The Saltpath's 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:07.360 authenticity has now been called into question after an investigation 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.960 published this week by the Observer. The author, Rayna Winn 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:16.000 is strongly denying The Observer's allegations, and you'll hear more 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.840 from her soon, joining me to unpack the saga is 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.840 Tim Douglas, in house expert on all things cultural and 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.920 editor of review published in the weekend edition of The Australian. 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:39.800 The Salt Path starts with the author, Rayna Wynn and 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:43.560 her husband Moth losing it all after an investment with 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:48.360 their friend goes south, homeless and destitute. The hits keep 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:50.280 coming for this middle aged couple. 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.760 We also house, We lost our livelihood, and a few 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:57.880 days later my husband of thirty two years received a 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.320 terminal diagnosis an we gosto future. 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:07.480 The diagnosis is for cordico basal degeneration, a rare and 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:12.880 degenerative brain disease with similarities to Parkinson's. With nothing to lose, 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.120 the couple embark on a thousand kilometer walk along the 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.359 southwest Coast path of Britain. 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.560 It became more than just a walk for us. It 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.799 became something that saved us. 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:30.600 Only this week, a widow named Ross Hemmings has detailed 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:34.880 in The Observer a very different sequence of events. Hemmings 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.280 alleges that Winn, whom she knew by her legal name 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:42.600 Sally Walker, had embezzled money from her late husband Martin 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:46.480 while working as his bookkeeper. The initial sum was thought 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.480 to be around nine thousand pounds. Winn pleaded for forgiveness, 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.760 according to Roz, and assured her employer the money would 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:57.480 be repaid only soon after it was established the missing 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:01.720 sum was much higher, like close to sixty thousand pounds higher. 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:06.320 Here's what Roz Hemmings told the Observer newspaper in Britain. 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.040 She's made a lot of money out of ruining my 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:14.400 family's life. Allegedly, Winn was arrested in questioned, but flew 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.760 the coup before further action could be taken. Then, a 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.720 distant relative of Wynn's husband, Tim also known as Morth, 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.640 bailed the couple out with a one hundred thousand pound 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:28.280 loan and in return, the Hemmings's agreed to drop the 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:32.600 matter and sign a non disclosure agreement. Then, reportedly the 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.000 loan was called in and that's how they lost the house. 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:41.760 Hardly a business venture gone south. Here's part of a 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:46.360 statement raynal Wynn has released. She's denying any wrongdoing. We've 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:49.080 included in the show notes a link to her full statement, 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.720 and we're including some of it here too. But it's 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:54.360 fair to say she has a detailed response to what 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.920 The Observer has reported We've used an AI voice to 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.240 read the statement, and you'll hear more of Rain and 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.560 Ween's responses throughout this episode. 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:09.920 The Observer article is grotesquely unfair, highly misleading, and seeks 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:14.160 to systematically pick apart my life. But as our walk 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.080 along the Salt Path taught us, when life has ground 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.040 you into the dirt, you need to stand up, turn 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.880 your face to the wind, and continue unafraid. So that 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.880 is what I must do. I worked for Martin Hemmings 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.279 in the years before the economic crash of two thousand 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.320 and eight. For me, it was a pressured time. It 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:34.359 was also a time when mistakes were being made in 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.039 the business. Any mistakes I made during the years in 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.640 that office I deeply regret and I am truly sorry. 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.240 Mister Hemmings made an allegation against me to the police, 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:48.359 accusing me of taking money from the company. I was questioned. 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.200 I was not charged, nor did I face criminal sanctions. 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:55.800 I reached a settlement with Martin Hemmings because I did 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:58.640 not have the evidence required to support what happened. 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.800 Let's talk about the decisions that have been made up 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:07.440 until this point. Penguin Random House would have given this 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:09.760 woman an advance to write this book, and how to 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:12.640 sign a contract in which presumably she would have given 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.920 an undertaking that it was true. This is not the 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:19.039 only literary scandal that's around at the moment, But but once 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.200 a year we hear that a best selling book is 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.800 based on an untruth or that there might be some 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:26.320 doubt about its origins. Do you think it matters for 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.560 the publishing house? They're now getting a huge amount of 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:29.400 publicity out of it. 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:33.160 Those books are sold, so it's already sold two million 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.880 books and counting. Whether this will harm that is another story. 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.440 So I think that it's an interesting question about whether 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.279 it matters. It's a really philosophical one. I mean, in 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.200 this country, of course, we've got Helen Dennadenko and Miles 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.760 Franklin winning the handsign the paper, and we have the 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.480 normal curity scandal of course that broke. We've got Bell 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.840 Gibson too, and there are shades of that with this 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:57.440 story also. So I think her subsequent books will be 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.560 harm She's got a book coming out in a month 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:00.440 or two, I believe. 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:02.799 But I think the film side of it is really interesting. 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:07.160 It had kind of a muted release here, opened in May, 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.440 took four hundred thousand on the opening weekend. But in 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.039 the UK it's massive. It's the third biggest film of 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:16.239 the year there already, it's taken almost eight million pounds 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:18.599 at the box office. It is yet to secure a 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.520 North American release, and I think it is an independent film, 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:23.800 so independent films have a slow burn. So this was 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.080 released last year at Toronto Film Festival in September, got 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:29.640 a lot of recognition there, then had a release in 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:34.359 the UK and Australia simultaneously. But the producers bank on 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:36.919 word of mouth from a big kind of UK release 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.640 to secure those theaters in the US to really make 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.360 their money back. Now, if social media is any indication, 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.000 I think that looks increasingly unlikely that major cinemas would 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:48.160 take a gamble on that. 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:50.279 They also wait for the streaming. 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.200 Rights to roll out. Will anyone want to watch this 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.799 on a streaming platform? If these allegations prove to be true, 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:57.279 It's an interesting question. 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:03.120 What do you think is the responsibility of publishers and 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.480 film houses when they're buying a story like this. Obviously 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.560 there's a commercial consideration, but is there also an ethical 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.360 question here, particularly when it relates to something medical? 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:16.120 Well, I mean there is. 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:18.680 I mean, I think as journalists we find it difficult 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:21.960 to understand how a publishing house might not perform due 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:25.440 diligence and get across that story and say, Okay, this 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.360 isn't your real name. This didn't actually happen. I mean, 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:30.840 one would have thought that there are people employed to 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:33.080 perhaps you know, tract. 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.320 Yeah, well, when you're signing a legal contract with someone, 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:38.679 surely you would be asking to see a driver's license 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:39.120 at least. 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:40.000 Yeah, that's right. 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:47.240 Rain and Winn responded with this, let me explain my names. 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.760 Win is my maiden name, and like most women who 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.840 have married, I've used both my maiden name Win and 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:57.280 married name Walker. In the early years after Math and 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.520 I met, I told him I disliked my name Sally Ann. 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.960 It made me think of ringlets and Gingham dresses and 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.480 how I wished I'd been given the family name of Raynor. 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:09.680 From then on, he called me ray It is the 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:11.840 name many people who are close to me have known 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.360 me by, and the name I love and chose as 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:21.000 my pen name, Moth is just an abbreviation of his name, Timothy. 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:24.560 I think the medical issue is a different concern, because, 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:28.480 of course it's patient doctor confidentiality. And there are from 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.640 one of the better term, miraculous things that happen in 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:36.200 terms of health, whether that is becoming a terminal, very rare, 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:40.800 serious neurological condition by going out for a stroll is. 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:42.559 A Is that the issue? 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:49.559 Here's what Rhina Wein said about that among the Observer's 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:53.240 many accusations, the most heartbreaking is the suggestion that Moth 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:57.480 has made up his illness. This utterly vile, unfair, and 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:01.959 false suggestion has emotionally dev stated Moth, who has fought 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:06.439 so hard against the insidious condition of cortico basil syndrome. 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.319 I have never sought to offer medical advice in my 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.000 books or suggests that walking might be some sort of 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:16.240 miracle cure for CBS. I am simply charting Moth's own 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.439 personal journey and battle with his illness and what has 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.800 helped him. We will always be grateful that Moth's version 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.760 of CBS is indolent. Its slow progression has allowed us 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:33.640 time to discover how walking helps him. Others aren't so lucky. 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:39.040 Publishing has survived against all the odds. Probably twenty years 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.280 ago there were predictions that publishing would die, but it's 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.520 books like beasts that have kept publishing, isn't it. Memoir 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:49.000 has been a big part of along with romanticy, of 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.240 why people are still buying books in paper discussing them 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.640 in book clubs. Do you think in the age of 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:58.000 social media, where publishing houses are very quick to leap 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.680 on something that's big on TikTok, that there's a diminution 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.200 of the checks and balances that they once would have 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:05.880 gone through. They've lost a bit of their power. 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:07.080 Yeah, they may have done that. 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.760 I mean, you're right, memoir is huge, and you know, 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:12.120 I'm waiting for yours to come out, actually, because I 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.480 think people would be quite interested, to be honest, I 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:16.160 expect to people in publishing all the time and they're 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:17.080 always looking for. 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:18.199 That new story. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:22.120 I feel like this one was apparently the author wrote 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:23.040 the book. 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.520 Just for a husband. I mean, what do we believe anymore? 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.400 But it didn't intend for really to become a published 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:33.199 book or let alone a publishing phenomenon. But yeah, I 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:35.959 think it's interesting in the world of social media and 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:41.439 selfie culture and generation me that those personal stories, embellished 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:43.320 as they may be, are so interesting to people. 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.240 Let's talk about where the story goes after the loss 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:51.240 of the house and the diagnosis. In the book, they 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.319 set out on one of these walks that middle aged 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.880 people seem to be doing a lot now and what 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:01.400 happens on the course of that walk in the book, Well. 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.240 I read the book. There was a lot of whining 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.240 that happened in it. I've found really hard going. 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:10.080 Maybe I'm the only one, but basically they realized that 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.000 the pension they're going to get from the government isn't 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:17.040 enough to really keep them alive, so they beg borrow 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:21.400 and steal and steal in some cases from small business owners, 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:23.760 and you know, they meet other people along the path, 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:29.080 but invariably I found there's this really insufferable tone from 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:31.439 the author of the book about how they were doing 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.440 it the only righteous way, and that other people on 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:35.160 the path are always rude to them, and no one 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.440 could believe that they could possibly do this walk. 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.520 And it's a good walk. I mean six hundred and 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:40.080 thirty miles. 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:44.160 I think it's onenty twelve kilometers from Somerset to Dorset, 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:46.480 so it's a big effort. But I found some of 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:48.439 the writing quite difficult. 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:58.400 Going more of my chat with Tim Douglas after the 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:14.079 Break it's meant to be uplifting, obviously, and that's one 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:16.880 of the reasons why this book went viral. It was 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:20.720 a story of triumph over adversity. These people took their situation, 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.160 which was basically being homeless, and turned it into an adventure. 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.120 That's a new genre in publishing, isn't it. We used 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.880 to have misery memoirs. Now we have middle aged people 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:31.280 where something bad happens and then they. 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:32.920 Go for more. Yeah, it's true. 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:37.000 My wife or her friend's fortieth just did the Santiago 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.600 to Compostella Walk because one hundred and sixty kilometer walk 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.199 as part of the Camino de Santiago Walk. A friend 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.079 of hers, at a dinner party maybe three or four 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:47.800 weeks ago, said, you have to read this book. 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:48.720 I hadn't seen the film. 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:50.840 I still haven't seen it, but he said, you have 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.280 to read this book because it's just so uplifting. It's amazing, 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.080 You've got to do this walk, and so, Yeah, people 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:57.840 in their forties and fifties are now, you know, really 0:12:57.840 --> 0:12:59.959 embarking on these kind of journeys trying to stay far. 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.480 But you're right, it's a new genre, and look, it's 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.160 worked for Raynal Winns. She's had three subsequent book deals 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:09.280 out of it, all of which detail her husband Moths 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.480 overcoming this horrible disease with which he has lived for 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:15.120 eighteen years, apparently. 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:17.640 And that's the other part of the story with which 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.679 the Observer has raised questions, isn't it because neurologists who 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:24.200 are specialists in this particular disease are saying nobody lives 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:27.120 for eighteen years, and certainly nobody lives in what appears 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:27.880 to be quite good. 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:32.120 Health exactly, and not just good health, but doing the 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:35.400 equivalent of as it says in the book for Summits 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.199 of Everest on this walk. I mean, these people are 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:38.920 in good nick. 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.840 There was obviously something about this book that had your 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.839 spidy senses tingling when you were reading it. Do you 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.160 feel justified now in your hatred of it as a 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.400 piece of literature? And doesn't mean you don't have to 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:51.880 go on one of these epic walks? 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:54.360 Well, okay, two things. It means I don't have to 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.800 watch the film, which I've managed to avoid doing. 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.719 I didn't hate it. I just found the Tony sufferable. 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.560 And you know this kind of inverse noobbery of being 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.839 out on the trail and all these people with their flashbackpacks. 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:08.960 We're doing it the right way. 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:10.719 You know, no one believed we could do it, and 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:15.760 all these serendipitous coincidences that I just found a little 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.280 bit darling. As for the walk, my wife wants to 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.920 do the Camino Way from Santiago to Compostella. I'm one 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.640 hundred percent in it's eight hundred ks. I just need 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:26.800 to convince the editor in chief to let me have 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.000 eight weeks off work fully paid. 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:31.240 Well, I mean, you could be writing a book about it. 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:33.600 I'm not sure anyone would want to read that. 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.160 Tim Douglas is the editor of Review. You can check 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:45.880 it out by picking up a copy of the Weekend 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:50.160 Australian or going to the Australian dot com dot auslash 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.080 Review anytime. This episode of the Front was hosted by 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.080 met Claire Harvey and produced by Jasper Leek, who edited 0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:59.920 the episode and also wrote our theme. Thanks for joining 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.480 us on the Front this week. Our team also includes 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:07.000 Christian amyot Leat, Sammaglu, Tiffany Dimac, Joshua Burton and Stephanie Coombs.