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Speaker 1: H'm i Boris and this is straight Talk rock Elsam.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to straight Talk, mate, thanks for hav me on

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Speaker 1: my god, I mean, I'm looking behind you. I'm actually

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Speaker 1: looked by myself. What the hell's going on? The first

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Speaker 1: time was made to a fugitive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an unusual situation, certainly not the way I

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Speaker 2: would have plan it.

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Speaker 1: So definitely not. I mean are you in? I mean

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Speaker 1: I don't. I guess you're not going to tell me

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Speaker 1: where you are, but which continent are you in? Which

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Speaker 1: part of the world north or south?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the big thing is that if I

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Speaker 2: was to be detained, you know, if I was to

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Speaker 2: go into custody, it's a lot harder, much harder to

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Speaker 2: defend myself, to be able to put together a legal case.

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Speaker 2: And you know, you don't want to necessarily publicize the

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Speaker 2: fact that I am trying to avoid being detained, but

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Speaker 2: it's because it makes my defense so much harder.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's interesting. So I mean you work in exparte. So,

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Speaker 1: in other words, you weren't at the trial where you

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Speaker 1: where the judgment was given, which means you've never really

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Speaker 1: built a defense, or never really had an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: at least put your defense forward. And there is a

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Speaker 1: concept here in Australia at least of called natural justice

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Speaker 1: where everyone has the right to be heard. You haven't

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Speaker 1: had that right. Let's just park aside just a little

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Speaker 1: bit for the moment anyway, the judgment. If we could

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Speaker 1: just go back and maybe you could give me some

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Speaker 1: context of you know, what you were doing where you

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Speaker 1: were back in that period, what period of you know

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Speaker 1: is twenty fifteen sixteen, What were you doing in number

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Speaker 1: on and what was had you end up in that

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Speaker 1: French club anyway for a start, So.

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Speaker 2: Some Australians including Bob Dwyer and bankers and guys with

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Speaker 2: a bit of money were approached by the club to

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Speaker 2: save it from relegation and financial reasons. So every club

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Speaker 2: has to have a positive balance sheet otherwise as it

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Speaker 2: can be kicked out of the competition. So they approached

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Speaker 2: Bob and others and said, can you help us because

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Speaker 2: locally there's a lack of motivation, but they feel like

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Speaker 2: they're going to need some international help. They took it

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Speaker 2: over and they did a great job of stabilizing the club,

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Speaker 2: but it was costly. So every year it costs them

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Speaker 2: quite a bit less than what it had cost before,

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Speaker 2: but more than they wanted. So when I was playing

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Speaker 2: at Too Long, I took a bit of an interest

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Speaker 2: in what was going on there, a bit more of

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Speaker 2: an interest, and I said, this is what you need

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Speaker 2: to do to make this sustainable. You need to sign

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Speaker 2: lots of minimum wage contracts and financially to be able

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Speaker 2: to withstand the ups and downs. You're going to need

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Speaker 2: to do that, and you need to run it like this.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean by canish? What do you mean

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Speaker 1: by minimum wage contracts? You mean is that in order

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Speaker 1: to get the cost down or is it in order

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Speaker 1: to attract players?

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Speaker 2: So you they spent let's say six and a half

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Speaker 2: million a year, and I said, you need to spend

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Speaker 2: three point eight million, right, And the way you do

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Speaker 2: that is the only way to do that is to

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Speaker 2: sign players on minimum wage contracts, so and lots of them.

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Speaker 2: Not every player is off contract every year. And so

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Speaker 2: they were a bit risky, but in my mind it

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Speaker 2: was risky and not doing it because they weren't going

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Speaker 2: to put in hundreds of thousands of euros every year.

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Speaker 2: So they said, okay, there's a way you do that too.

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Speaker 2: There's more to it and they said okay. I said,

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Speaker 2: I will put in the money that's required this year,

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Speaker 2: but I need to run it the way I want

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Speaker 2: to run it, and it involves this, and they said fine,

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Speaker 2: So we they issued new shares. I became the majority shareholder.

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Speaker 2: They are incredibly supportive, but essentially it was I was

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Speaker 2: running the ship from there.

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Speaker 1: So it's so we're talking about Bob Doue x Ram

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Speaker 1: with bobble doy, I was probably still involved with Ramwick

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Speaker 1: Bobby Dye, who I remember for many, many many years ago.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen him probably for thirty years, maybe longer,

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Speaker 1: and it's good to know that I didn't even know

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Speaker 1: he don't excuse me, Bobby to know he's still alive.

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Speaker 1: So good on your Bob. But you've you've contacted them

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Speaker 1: with a solution to their problem. You know, Naboon had

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Speaker 1: a problem. Dowire and others came in and tried to

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Speaker 1: solve it. It's not sustainable from a financial point of view.

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Speaker 1: If you don't have enough funds as a club, you'll

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Speaker 1: get relegated and probably continue to get relegated. You're coming

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Speaker 1: with a solution that probably wouldn't have been all that

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Speaker 1: popular because it sounds like you would have had to

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Speaker 1: get rid of a few players who would have been

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Speaker 1: on the not the minimum wage, but on a bigger wage.

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Speaker 2: Everyone that was off contract that didn't accept minimum wage.

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Speaker 2: Was that gap, Yeah, and so I guess it's financially

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Speaker 2: it makes complete sense. But then you have the emotional

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Speaker 2: pressure of trying to get that team to stay in

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Speaker 2: the competition, you know, on sporting grounds, and.

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Speaker 1: So in terms of talent, yeah, if you if.

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Speaker 2: You finished last or second last year relegated as well.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it was there was a lot of pressure

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Speaker 2: around that time. I thought it was a thing to do.

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Speaker 1: But it's a bit of like catch twenty two. Solve

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Speaker 1: the financial problem first and then I'll deal with the

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Speaker 1: talent problem second. Well, give me a bit of a sense,

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Speaker 1: mate of the area. So I don't know where this

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Speaker 1: area is in France. Give me a sense of the people,

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Speaker 1: the culture. You know, they like Australians, they hate Australians.

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Speaker 1: Are they tribal? What's the deal there?

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Speaker 2: Very very tribal. It's the odd or The Languadoc region

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Speaker 2: is a kind of dry arid region region on the

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Speaker 2: coast near the Spanish border. So on the Mediterranean beaches

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Speaker 2: and all the rest. But they're basically a region of

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Speaker 2: villages and they are incredibly tribal. So when you say,

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Speaker 2: here's this. For example, we had one of the Tui

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Speaker 2: Langy brothers at number eight, one hundred and thirty five

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Speaker 2: kilos physical specimen, great player, I say, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: swap this guy. I didn't announce it, but the truth

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Speaker 2: was I was replacing him with a ninety two kilo junior.

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Speaker 2: He was number eight. You're very upset with that. The

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Speaker 2: guy that came in, he was better, he was on

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Speaker 2: minimum wage, turned out to be a good player. But

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Speaker 2: at the time, Yeah, you can feel their you feel

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Speaker 2: their emotion, and that's part of why. That's a large

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Speaker 2: reason why French Ruby is so strong.

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Speaker 1: Well is the reason, sorry, and that I don't understand.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying one of the reasons French Roky is

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Speaker 1: so strong is the cultural sort of momentum and impact

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Speaker 1: that goes from the villages and the towns and the

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Speaker 1: cities that support that particular team. It's so parochial, is

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Speaker 1: that what you mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So just imagine you're in Sydney and then you

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Speaker 2: have glee ghleieb has its own team and they spend

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Speaker 2: six and a half million euros. Then in Balmain they

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Speaker 2: have their own team and they spend ten and then

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Speaker 2: a little further over in Dremoine they have their own

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Speaker 2: team and they spend sixteen million euros on their team.

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Speaker 2: And so you've got these villages essentially that are right

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Speaker 2: next to each other, that have enormous resources, and the

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Speaker 2: way they do that is by the local governments getting

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Speaker 2: right in behind the team and people being the epitome

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Speaker 2: of tribal and rugby terms. And so in this region

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Speaker 2: there's eight, eight or nine teams in a close proximity

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Speaker 2: to lose having a forty eight million euro budget, and

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Speaker 2: you they just don't have the people that you would

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Speaker 2: think the number of people that you would think supports that,

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Speaker 2: but the intensity of support is so great that they're

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Speaker 2: able to and as a result they do produce a

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Speaker 2: lot of talent in that area.

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Speaker 1: So I'm still trying to get quite a sense of

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Speaker 1: this is because as a foreign country, and obviously we

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Speaker 1: have our tribalism here in Australia too in terms of

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Speaker 1: AFL rugby, lee, rugby union, et cetera. But it sounds

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Speaker 1: like it's sort of a couple more levels above that.

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Speaker 1: How does a club like Narbon, how does it fund

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Speaker 1: itself outside of capital contributions by I presume that were shareholders.

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Speaker 1: I'm Bob and those guys did they own it as

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Speaker 1: a shareholder or what's the structure look like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they owned the shareholders. But that is the question

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Speaker 2: that most people don't understand. So that's the answer to

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Speaker 2: that question. Most people don't understand, and that is because

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Speaker 2: most people think, well, you have these wealthy benefactors and

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Speaker 2: in Paris, you do you know the Savar family, Peter Wilde,

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Speaker 2: Jackie larron ZERTI very wealthy guys. They fund the deficit.

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Speaker 2: Outside of that, you have this situation where they have

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Speaker 2: an incredible financial event over every rugby club in the world.

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Speaker 2: So that is organized around the local government, so that

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Speaker 2: the local government's the mayor. They don't it's not Waverley Council.

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Speaker 2: They have much larger government works under their control. Every

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Speaker 2: government contractor is required that is expected to contribute to

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Speaker 2: the community, and a lawful and obligatory, almost obligatory contribution

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Speaker 2: is to the rugby club if it's a rugby town.

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Speaker 2: So there's nothing illegal about that. But as a result,

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Speaker 2: if you go to a French club, you will see

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Speaker 2: hundreds of sponsors, hundreds of cash paying sponsors. If you

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Speaker 2: go to the UK you might see three. The rest

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Speaker 2: is contract, so you have hundreds of sponsors. And you know,

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Speaker 2: they say the TV rights deal is really lucrative in France.

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Speaker 2: That's not their advantage. It will be in twenty twenty seven,

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Speaker 2: it'll be nearly insurmountable for other clubs around the world.

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Speaker 2: But it has run primarily off a large amount of

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Speaker 2: sponsorship from the town. There are other advantages, but that

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Speaker 2: is the that's the number one thing. So they might

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Speaker 2: have five million euros in sponsorship spread across one hundred

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Speaker 2: different sponsors, and there's actually there's generally very little activation

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Speaker 2: for that, so it doesn't cost the club anything. And

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Speaker 2: that's why you have these villages essentially that can attract

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Speaker 2: world class players.

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Speaker 1: So someone who comes from a sort of a similar

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Speaker 1: sort of world, a club world, I can sort of

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Speaker 1: get a sense of this. The sponsors, the people put

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Speaker 1: the doe in are your local people. They're people who

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Speaker 1: are invested in let's call it the region. They probably

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Speaker 1: live in the area. They also feel that there probably

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Speaker 1: is some sort of like a quasi obligation on them

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Speaker 1: to contribute based on the fact that they're probably getting

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Speaker 1: government contracts and stuff like that. Then on the flip side,

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Speaker 1: you got your supporters. I presume there's gait money, So

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Speaker 1: you've got your fans who come to the game and

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Speaker 1: they've got to pay or they've got to buy club

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Speaker 1: membership and that sort of stuff. So what we have

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Speaker 1: here is this confluence of stakeholders who actually have a

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Speaker 1: sense of ownership. And it's not do you want them

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Speaker 1: to have that anyway because you want them to support.

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Speaker 1: So they're this sense of ownership. You know, they're not shareholders,

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Speaker 1: but they're stakeholders. And I guess if you're not doing

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Speaker 1: what they want to happen, do they have a say?

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Speaker 1: Is there a place where they can come and talk

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Speaker 1: to you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. So it's a partnership. So when the

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Speaker 2: Australians took over, the part of the deal was that

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Speaker 2: the board who are these guys and not all the

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Speaker 2: sponsors are locally based. They might be a national company

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Speaker 2: that is just obliged, but the board will ensure that

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Speaker 2: the sponsorship reads a certain amount. In our case, it

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Speaker 2: was two ero point two million they ensure that the

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Speaker 2: Australian's job was to make sure that the team would

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Speaker 2: be competitive and then cover any of the deficits that

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Speaker 2: might go with making a competitive team. So their say

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Speaker 2: is to although they had guaranteed in the deal, they're

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Speaker 2: say is if they don't like it, they can reduce

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Speaker 2: the amount of sponsorship or if they want to take

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Speaker 2: the club back, they want to take ownership of it.

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Speaker 2: The easiest way is just to say, at the last minute,

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Speaker 2: sponsorship dropped, So now there's three hundred thousand euros deficit.

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Speaker 2: Do you want to keep paying it? And that's standard

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Speaker 2: across France. So that's most sponsorship contracts are yearly, right,

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Speaker 2: so that you don't have five year deals or most

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Speaker 2: clubs don't anyway, most of them are done annually. And

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Speaker 2: so when you get in the situation like you just said,

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Speaker 2: where they aren't happy, they can present a sponsorship which

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Speaker 2: is much less than you expected. So in my case,

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Speaker 2: in the first year they at the last minute the

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Speaker 2: sponsorship dropped eight hundred thousand euros from the year before.

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Speaker 1: You were the CEO.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what was your role?

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Speaker 1: What was your role?

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Speaker 2: Sign all the players?

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Speaker 1: But no official role though Rocky like what was your

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Speaker 1: back contract?

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Speaker 2: Okay, I was a majority shareholder, but I was there

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Speaker 2: on a playing contract as a player.

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Speaker 1: But your but your role in a functional sense apart

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Speaker 1: from playing was what.

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Speaker 2: So I was the I was the general manager and

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Speaker 2: head of high performance and handled all the recruitment and

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Speaker 2: the salary and the contract negotiations.

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Speaker 1: So how did you get on with the locals?

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Speaker 2: It depends you're talking about like the board, right.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the board first. Yeah, so the.

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Speaker 2: Board would say you need to do this right rugby

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Speaker 2: in this league, this is one of the biggest leagues

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Speaker 2: in the world, you need to sign a scrum first.

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Speaker 2: And I would say, I would be nice, It definitely

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Speaker 2: would be nice. We don't have the money for that.

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Speaker 2: A good scrummag here is ten thousand hours a month.

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Speaker 2: We can't pay anyone there, So not right now anyway,

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Speaker 2: And so there was a bit of friction, right. But

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Speaker 2: I think that a large part of the friction was

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Speaker 2: because they were saying, we know this league, and I

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Speaker 2: was saying, okay, but I think Rugby's best done in

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Speaker 2: this way sustainably, and we didn't argue, right, So we

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Speaker 2: wouldn't argue. I wouldn't I didn't have to take their

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Speaker 2: opinion on board. So we certainly didn't have any altercations,

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Speaker 2: but there was a sense, particularly over time that I

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Speaker 2: wasn't listening to them, and in some respects that was right.

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Speaker 2: With the scrum that my first year, it was the

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Speaker 2: worst scrum I've ever been involved with. I've never seen

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Speaker 2: a worse scrump. I've never seen us so many guys

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Speaker 2: get sent off for scummaging, and I knew that was

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Speaker 2: going to happen. We just couldn't afford to buy good scummages.

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Speaker 1: So so, but that's pretty It's like having the sort

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Speaker 1: of demoicles hanging over your head all the time. It's

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Speaker 1: like if you're sort of damned if you do and

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Speaker 1: damned if you don't. If you take your own strategy forward,

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Speaker 1: they might reduce sponsorship, in which case it doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: with the major shoholder not the place is going to

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Speaker 1: get turned upside down. It's going to go on to

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Speaker 1: addmin for sure, because unless you've got really deep pockets

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Speaker 1: and you're going to keep funding the shortfall, and if

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Speaker 1: you do listen to them, you might end up, in

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Speaker 1: your own sense, having the wrong strategy in terms of

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Speaker 1: who you're recruiting over time because you know they're too expensive.

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Speaker 1: So again you're going to run into administration problems no

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Speaker 1: matter what you do. It would have sounded like to

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Speaker 1: me that you're in trouble. But as the major shoholder,

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Speaker 1: are you in a position to remove the directors?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So, like I said, it's a partnership. Whether they're

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Speaker 2: formally engaged as the board or not, you're in a partnership.

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Speaker 2: So removing them just makes it less transparent. And from

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Speaker 2: my point of view, and this is the same for

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Speaker 2: every rugby club that doesn't have a financial advantage, and

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Speaker 2: very few do. You add the most value to the

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Speaker 2: organization by making bets on players that are untested. So

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Speaker 2: by basically putting large, giving incentivizing contracts for guys that

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Speaker 2: have not been tested in the league, that's how you

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Speaker 2: get the best value. And so if you do that

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Speaker 2: and it works over time, that pressure does release. But

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Speaker 2: certainly in the beginning that's right. So there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of pressure and because of the way I was

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Speaker 2: doing it, and that dissipated over time.

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Speaker 1: Are you this I mean, I don't know. I've never

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Speaker 1: done something like this in my life, but you're living

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Speaker 1: in this smallish area relatively speaking.

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Speaker 2: Sorry mate, you said you had never done me.

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Speaker 1: I've never done something like this, so I can't I

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Speaker 1: can't imagine it. So you're living in a sort of

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Speaker 1: a relatively speaking, say, compared to Paris or something like that.

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Speaker 1: You're living in a relatively small place, but in a

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Speaker 1: big country with France as ninety million people or something.

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Speaker 1: You're they've got it. You're living in an environment where

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Speaker 1: people are probably one of the biggest things is the

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Speaker 1: rugby team in the area, one of the greatest things

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Speaker 1: they do. They love it as their part of their life.

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Speaker 1: Are you just sort of do who walks around every

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Speaker 1: Saturday something? Well, whenever during the weekend, during the weekday,

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Speaker 1: is that night you know, shaking hands, kissing babies? I

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Speaker 1: mean it was that sort of expected of you. And

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Speaker 1: if it was, is that rocky elsom Is that your style?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? They do, they do like that. So before me,

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Speaker 2: a few presidents before me was a guy called Island

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Speaker 2: because it was legend in the advertising world, and he

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Speaker 2: was exactly what they wanted as a president, very charismatic,

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Speaker 2: well dressed, would walk around town, would sit in the

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Speaker 2: stands with the fans, and he was absolutely loved. You know,

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Speaker 2: he was the head of AVAS, so he wasn't there

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Speaker 2: all the time, but when he was, he was in there,

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Speaker 2: and that is exactly what they want as a president.

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Speaker 2: When I was there, like I said before, I had

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Speaker 2: a lot of roles, So no one works harder than

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Speaker 2: the high performance coaches, like the strength purches on the ground,

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Speaker 2: and so I was not as visible, you know, and

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Speaker 2: it's not it's not really in my nature to to

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Speaker 2: be that. It's like, you the performance for the team

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Speaker 2: on the weekend, that's that's what I'm showing, you know,

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Speaker 2: And for the rest of it, I was generally at work.

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Speaker 1: So do you think part of your crime, let's call it,

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Speaker 1: was that you weren't charismatic enough, you didn't play the game,

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Speaker 1: and that you had a predecessor who set a benchmark,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know, it's always difficult to reach the

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Speaker 1: same benchmark that a predecessor set, especially when they've been

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Speaker 1: there for a long time and you're the new dude

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Speaker 1: on the street. Do you think that's part of your crime?

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Speaker 1: You didn't do what they wanted.

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Speaker 2: I think that it's said as that, but it's largely

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Speaker 2: inconsequential because as much as they appreciated that from Alan Depuoziak,

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Speaker 2: and he was say ten years earlier than me, and

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Speaker 2: the presidents in between were much less charismatic. What they

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Speaker 2: really feel the most is the team. So in that

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Speaker 2: season that I reduced that amount and they reduced the sponsorship.

347
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Speaker 2: My first season, we broke every record in the club's history.

348
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Speaker 2: Had the worst scrum I've ever seen, and we broke

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Speaker 2: every record in the club's history.

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Speaker 1: Which what type records?

351
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Speaker 2: Rockie the good ones. So most tries, highest I think

352
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Speaker 2: four of the five highest ever scores in the league

353
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Speaker 2: were in one season. Most tries by an individual, most

354
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Speaker 2: bonus points, most away wins, the only ever undefeated home season.

355
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Speaker 2: So no team came to Nabon and won, you know,

356
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,119
Speaker 2: leon twenty million euro budget. The whole three years I

357
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 2: was there, they never came to Nabon and won, and

358
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,040
Speaker 2: that meant an enormous amount to the people. They might

359
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 2: say it would be good to see you a bit

360
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 2: more often, but that is that's far more powerful. Perpignon,

361
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 2: they had a sixteen million yuarrow budget. We're in the league.

362
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Speaker 2: Two of the three years they came to Nabon and

363
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Speaker 2: we beat them by forty right, and so a record

364
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Speaker 2: never Nabon had never beaten them by that much. And

365
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Speaker 2: they're a huge team straight hand from the top fourteen.

366
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Speaker 2: And what that gives to the people is far more

367
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Speaker 2: valuable because they're in the crowd. You know that they

368
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 2: feel it when they in that game. In particular, it

369
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 2: could have been more, but the that's what they really want.

370
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Speaker 2: They really want something to get behind. And if I

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Speaker 2: know because a few babies tell them everything's going to

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Speaker 2: be great, you know, I think that they like that,

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Speaker 2: but they love how it feels when it goes well.

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Speaker 1: So you would say your strategy was working then in

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Speaker 1: terms of outcomes final outcomes.

376
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we lost in the semi final that year,

377
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Speaker 2: but if we had twenty percent reduction in all revenue

378
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Speaker 2: at the last minute and we still posted a healthy profit.

379
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 2: So the following year we didn't do as well, but

380
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Speaker 2: we posted a bigger profit. We had a similar reduction

381
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Speaker 2: in sponsorship. So this this was a program that was

382
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 2: financially sustainable but also too. Through the high performance program,

383
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Speaker 2: we were able to punch above our weight the entire

384
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Speaker 2: time and the pressure was intense in the first year,

385
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Speaker 2: but by the third year it had there was less

386
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 2: much less criticism about the way I was running it,

387
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 2: and it was much more targeted at trying to get

388
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Speaker 2: either control back off me or to someone else. And

389
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:22,679
Speaker 2: the the Cat Investment Authority situation was the probably the

390
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 2: peak of that is where they were saying it's going okay,

391
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,439
Speaker 2: but it could be better now, And that was certainly

392
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: a shift from the beginning when they thought you don't

393
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:33,400
Speaker 2: know what you're doing.

394
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Speaker 1: Is that is that when you say they are we

395
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 1: talking about a kabbal of people like five people or

396
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: the whole town or you know, there's the people are

397
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 1: going to have placards down the town, like what are

398
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: we talking about?

399
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 2: They So there's a big, big difference. You have the supporters, right,

400
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 2: and the supporters very emotional, riding every wave, but they

401
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 2: they basically respond to how the team goes. And then

402
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 2: you have the people that you have the partnership, the

403
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,719
Speaker 2: stake holders, so the city council, the regional f FR

404
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 2: and the.

405
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 1: Board what's the original f FR.

406
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 2: So like Rugby Australia is representative representative in the region

407
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 2: and so in the case of the Qatar Investment Fund

408
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 2: or Authority, they were the stakeholders were in favor and

409
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 2: the media too, So he was very well supported the

410
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 2: guy that was being proposed. But that's that's who was

411
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 2: in favor of him. The local people they were they

412
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 2: were a little bit more skeptical and.

413
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Speaker 1: So a Catar what a Qatar wanted. They want to

414
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,199
Speaker 1: take over the guitar investment Authority or fund kind of.

415
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 2: So the head of Roland Garros was a former president

416
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 2: of Narbonne. He introduced to the board at the Legion

417
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 2: Dono that he was receiving. He induced introduced them to

418
00:23:55,359 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 2: the chairman and CEO of the Katar Investment Fund, and

419
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 2: he met with some of the four former presidents and

420
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 2: they decided that they were going to ask me to

421
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: sell the club to this guy. Turned Arbon into Paris

422
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,479
Speaker 2: Saint Germain, but in the south right. And so the

423
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 2: enormous coverage in the press, national coverage, international coverage was

424
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: he's Rocky going to sell to this guy. I met

425
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Speaker 2: him and I said to the board, I'm not sure

426
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: he's the guy you think he is.

427
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: What does that mean? What does that mean, Rocky? I mean,

428
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 1: what was your objection?

429
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 2: The Katar Investment Authority is half a trillion dollar fund.

430
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: Massive, richest country in the world per capita.

431
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. So and if I met the guy, nice guy,

432
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 2: got on well with him. He doesn't control that fund.

433
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: That's obvious to me. And it was when I said that,

434
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 2: it was as if I walked into the house and

435
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 2: spat on the carpet. You know. It was like, you

436
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 2: could you be more arrogant to think that you're questioning

437
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: this guy that the mayor, the FFR, the board had

438
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 2: all come out and supported him, and I was just saying,

439
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not sure who the guy is, but

440
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 2: he's not this right. It's not the same guy that

441
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 2: brought PSG. And so from from then on it was

442
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 2: virtually a war. So they had said, if you don't

443
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 2: sell to this guy, we're going to make things very

444
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 2: difficult for you, and I said, I believe you, but

445
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 2: it's going to be hard to sell to this guy

446
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 2: because he's not who you think he is. And so

447
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 2: this went on for three months. I would call journalists

448
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 2: and say, listen, call NASA that the boss of PSG,

449
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 2: ask him if he knows him. If he doesn't know him,

450
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 2: he's not part of it. And that sounds like the

451
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: most obvious thing to do. But it took months for

452
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 2: them to actually do it. And in that time, you know,

453
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 2: the partnership that we've spoken about with the other stakeholders

454
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 2: had turned pretty It was more or less a siege.

455
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 2: You know, if you read French newspapers, hundreds of articles

456
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: about how I was frustrating the deal and there's no

457
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: motivation for me to do that. You know, if he's

458
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: he's got four hundred billion dollars, let him buy the club,

459
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: you know. And so but there was this constant with that,

460
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 2: and finally and the team kept winning, which was a

461
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 2: huge help. And finally, after the Perpignon game that I mentioned,

462
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: a journalist who I'd spoken to a number of times said, yep,

463
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 2: he's not that guy.

464
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: So what do you say, not that guy? I'm a

465
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: bit confused. He was pretending to be the person in

466
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: front of the Katari investment fund or he was a

467
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: Katari investment fund person, but he was portraying a different

468
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: type of personality. Well, what do he mean, he's not

469
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: that guy?

470
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 2: So he was. He was the chairman and CEO Katchain

471
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 2: Investment Fund, which was the shelf company with no funds

472
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 2: under management and no stuff. And so, to be fair

473
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 2: to the guy himself, He never said, you know that

474
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 2: he was a part of their thing, but it was

475
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: certainly it was a part of the Kata Investment Authority

476
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 2: or an offshoot of it. He never said that, but

477
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 2: they ran with it right. So in my contact with him,

478
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 2: he never said, I'm a part of the Kata Investment Authority.

479
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: We own all this. He would talk generally about we

480
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 2: being Katari. He was Tunisi in anyway, but he would

481
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 2: talk about WI as in being Katari. So it was

482
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: to me it was obvious he was trying to put

483
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 2: a deal together, but he had no position. He didn't

484
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,239
Speaker 2: have any position like what they thought, and it was

485
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 2: a case of being very mistaken about who he was.

486
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 2: It wasn't as if he could get ten million but

487
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: not ten billion. There was no funds that he had

488
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 2: access to that would be of any use to the club.

489
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: And the danger of that was that if he had,

490
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: if I had just sold it to him, the club

491
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 2: would have collapsed very quickly, because the expectation would be

492
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 2: that he funded everything from then on.

493
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 1: So you must have had more than a hunch. I mean,

494
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: you must have done a bit of research on this

495
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: so called company. Do you think it was? It was

496
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: very mysterious, like do you think there were others sitting

497
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: behind him who were sort of was was he like

498
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: being puppeted? Were there puppeteers? It was all on It

499
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: was his initiative.

500
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: Very charismatic guy, spoke of bunkage to languages, very well

501
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: dressed and he basically they loved the story that he told,

502
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: so was a con. Yeah. I didn't mind the guy

503
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: to be honest, so I don't want to disparage him.

504
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's nothing like what they thought. And even

505
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,479
Speaker 2: like I said, the media said more than he did.

506
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: They said, you know, Rocky's Turney's back on billions of

507
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: dollars here, and they can continued to say that. But

508
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: I think that the thing that gave it away was

509
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: I called the Kata Investment Fund, called them. Every big

510
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: fund has a PR office, and I said to the

511
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 2: p do you have this guy? Do you have an

512
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: eye on Is he on your board? Is he part

513
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 2: of your organization? And she said to me, no, he's

514
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 2: with the Kata Investment Authority. We are an organization that

515
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: invests in Katar, right, you're talking about the Kata Investment

516
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: Authority And I said, so she said that to everyone

517
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: that's called up and I said, but do you know him?

518
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 2: And she said, yeah, I know him. He's from the

519
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: kata Investment Authority. I said, okay, see what you're telling

520
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: me is you specifically know this guy to be a

521
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: part of the Katai Investment Authority. And then she said, no,

522
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: but he can't be with us, So I just assume

523
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 2: he's with the Katai Investment Authority, right, So you don't

524
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: know that. But she everyone that called up. She was saying, listen,

525
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 2: not with us, it's with them, it's with this much

526
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: bigger fund. And so when you could tell anyway, right,

527
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: But when she said that, I was like, you know,

528
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 2: when you I'm sure you've called this girl call her again.

529
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: She doesn't know this guy, right, she doesn't. She's saying that,

530
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: and it might have misled you along with everything else,

531
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: but she doesn't know that guy. So it's hard to

532
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: say who's who in the Middle East, you know, who

533
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: has access to whatever for English speakers, so it wasn't

534
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: entirely clear, but they should have known.

535
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: So you rejected or not rejected, Well, you reject your

536
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: the shareholder, and you sort of influenced this outcome, and

537
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: so what happened then, so where did the credit start.

538
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 2: What I said to him was, if you want to,

539
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: if you whatever you're going to promise to do for

540
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: the club, no worries. You can do it whoever you are.

541
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 2: I didn't say that whoever you are a bit to him.

542
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 2: But whatever you're going to do to the club, whatever

543
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 2: you promise, all it has to be is in an account.

544
00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: If you're going to promise to do something, just need

545
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 2: the money in an account. Myself and a lawyer and

546
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: an escrow account will be able to release it over time.

547
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: He wasn't able to do show me the money exactly.

548
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 2: And I said to the board after it had come

549
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,959
Speaker 2: out publicly, because it didn't matter how many times I

550
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: said it, I said, let's not worry about it. Let's

551
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: just move past it. And at this time I had

552
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 2: numerous legal battles for various things, Sponsors being co opted

553
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: to try and pull out the mayor saying we're not

554
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: sure we're going to give you the money that we

555
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: already agreed to for the season. We got in trouble

556
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: with the league regulator for that. Because there were so

557
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 2: many legal cases and issues and discrepancies, I said, let's

558
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 2: not worry about it now, we'll just move forward. They

559
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 2: didn't say it, but they were like, we're going to

560
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,719
Speaker 2: keep going with this. We're going to keep going. So

561
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: we won all the court cases. All the sponsors eventually paid.

562
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 2: The mayor eventually paid because it became obvious that, you know,

563
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: this strategy was going to cause us trouble because the

564
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: league regularly got involved, and so they eventually paid. They

565
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: eventually paid, but it was clear that my position was

566
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: untenable because they were embarrassed, let's say, but also too

567
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: that had en up. It's their team, it's their town,

568
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 2: it had been their team for twenty five to fifty years.

569
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: So they asked the mayor to ask me to open

570
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: the capital to basically issue new shares to allow them

571
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: to increase their ownership to the majority that had us

572
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: that in the past, and I'd always accepted, but this

573
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: time they they really meant it, and so I said yeah.

574
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 2: So I issued announced it at the meeting, and then

575
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: gave them the opportunity to invest in the club, which

576
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: would mean that I would be twenty percent rather than

577
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: ninety seven percent, and then subsequently probably have no control

578
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 2: over it.

579
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: And then what happened? When did you.

580
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: Leave so I announced that in June during which year

581
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: June twenty sixteen.

582
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: Yep, how did you end up leaving the club? So

583
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: what are the circumstances there?

584
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: So I announced that I'm going to allow some subscription

585
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 2: as per the terms asked by the mary, which is

586
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: basically to these guys only exclusively. And then they with

587
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: the board, we went through a process of cleaning up

588
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 2: all the accounts. So the most transparent thing that I

589
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: could do is to say, of all the promises made

590
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: by the club, I pay those, show them in the

591
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: accounts so there's no accounts payable, and then say this

592
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: is the actual position of the club. Do you know

593
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: there's nothing ambiguous about it. Now you know where it's at.

594
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: Do you want to invest in the club? So I

595
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 2: knew they would have a go at me about that,

596
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 2: so I did things as clearly as I could. And

597
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: you know, there's always things in rugby clubs that you know,

598
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 2: you could potentially, you know, criticize the previous president for,

599
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 2: and so I do it in this way. It's very transparent.

600
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: They have a lot of time to look at the

601
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 2: accounts and all the rest and then decide whether they

602
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 2: want to invest. If they don't invest. I keep going.

603
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: They've got the opportunity. Previously did the same thing. No

604
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: one subscribed, so there's the chance of doing that. So

605
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 2: anything that I promised I had made sure was completely transparent.

606
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,240
Speaker 2: And so they say at the end of the month,

607
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: we would like to invest in it. Then they take

608
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 2: over the majority. I'm still I'm still a significant shareholder.

609
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 2: I get outvoted as the president, and they carry on

610
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 2: as the club, you know, carry on with the club.

611
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 2: The money that they invest they get to use. So

612
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 2: it certainly wasn't news beforehand. But they get the club

613
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: with a positive balance sheet and cash reserves let's say

614
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 2: something like half a million euros. And that is as

615
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 2: rare as you will ever see in France that a

616
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 2: club is handed over in those conditions with money with assets, yeah,

617
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 2: with assets of any level. Normally it's which with major debts.

618
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: So so they did their due diligence, let's call it

619
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: due diligence. And who who keeps the accounts at the club?

620
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,919
Speaker 1: Like do you have like an accountant or a CFO.

621
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 2: Or yeah, So in this case it was much more

622
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 2: open than normal. So we had an independent order by Deloitte,

623
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 2: We had the club's accountant and auditor who were extremely

624
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 2: let's say, familiar with the board. And then you had

625
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 2: the league. So the League had had given us a

626
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 2: sanction because of you know, all the legal trouble earlier

627
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 2: in the year, so the League had to approve them.

628
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: And then you had the board. So Bob Dwyer was

629
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 2: over there and Michael Boucher was over there after him

630
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 2: to be able to and they continued on in the board.

631
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 2: So you had an unusually high level of transparency over

632
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 2: your accounts and all the rest. And it was a

633
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 2: much smaller club by then, so it was easier to understand.

634
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: So you got voted out as president and did Boucher

635
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: and they stay on.

636
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 2: They stayed on the board and.

637
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: Then what happened? So what did you hang around.

638
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: Or Yeah, I came back to Australia in November, so

639
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 2: it was July when this happened and the but they

640
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: took the year after I left that they had quite

641
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: a good team. They did okay, they didn't challenge for

642
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: the finals, but they did okay. Two years after I left,

643
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 2: they finished last and so were relegated and they had

644
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 2: if you believe the press, they had about a million

645
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: euros in deficit, so I would spend three point eight

646
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 2: four point three million euros a year. They spend seven

647
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: and a half million euros and finish last, So it's

648
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: it was a situation. But more so than that, right results,

649
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 2: right sporting results can go against you. But the biggest

650
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: thing that happened in the year was the head coach

651
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 2: that I employed, Christian Labit. Very charismatic guy, won various

652
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 2: titles across France a number of times. Halfway through the

653
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 2: season when they were you know, down the bottom but

654
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 2: not in the relegation zone, they sacked him. So they

655
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: sacked him the management did. That's a management decision from there, Nabon.

656
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 2: I think they barely won a game. So it's halfway

657
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 2: through the year before and they lose nearly every game.

658
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: But not only do they lose, they get absolutely hammered, right,

659
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 2: so for large patches they average fifty points against them

660
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: and it was an historic run. So people blamed the

661
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: management for that, understandably. Christian went to the team across

662
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 2: the way, so a big rival, Carcasson, somehow took the

663
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 2: role there because they were going so terribly. They were

664
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: last and they hired Christian. Then Christian. They were the

665
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 2: best performing team in the entire league from the moment

666
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 2: he came in, So they won seventy percent of games,

667
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: and incredibly, you wouldn't be able to script it. So

668
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: he was last or second last, and they go to

669
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 2: the first place team or second team away from home

670
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 2: and win, and that I'm not certain, but that's probably

671
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 2: never happened. And so the pressure on the new administration

672
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 2: on that decision was incredible, and Nabon was relegated with

673
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 2: months to go. So with eight games to play or something,

674
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: maybe five or six, everybody knew they were going to

675
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: be relegated, and so, you know, I know what it's

676
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: like as a president. There's a lot of pressure when

677
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 2: when the crowd turn away from the field and back

678
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 2: up towards the president and start howling. They would have

679
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 2: felt that. So they were officially relegated, and a day

680
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 2: or two after or what actually when they were experiencing,

681
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 2: they got beaten by sixty eight points by their biggest

682
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 2: rival at home, which is you know, like I said before,

683
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 2: people feel that, you know, their tribal They started saying

684
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: there's a police investigation into Rockies mismanagement. So that happens

685
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: the week they lose by sixty eight points when they

686
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 2: get and they keep teasing these things out and so

687
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: in the week that they actually officially get relegated, there's

688
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 2: an article which says basically that it's my fault that

689
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 2: I turned down this Tunisian guy that I even fell

690
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: out with Justin Harrison, that you know, my mismanagement, that

691
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: there's this police investigation and money went missing. So using

692
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 2: the term missing, I disappeared. I didn't let you know,

693
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: no one knew where I was, and all this type

694
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: of stuff, and it didn't get I think it didn't

695
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 2: go over particularly well in the beginning because they'd just

696
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: been relegated, but it dragged out for years and years

697
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 2: and years, and so after five years of saying it

698
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: all the time, things like that, and if you look

699
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: it up, there certainly was a lot of press around

700
00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 2: allegations before any any anything came to a court. Then

701
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 2: you would, you know, the people started to say, well,

702
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: maybe you know, particularly if you're not from Navone, you

703
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,959
Speaker 2: would say, well, what did you know? Maybe you did

704
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: at the time, but they wouldn't.

705
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: Be able to do that as well as case. Fifty

706
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: percent of people will believe in fifty percent won't believe it.

707
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: But if someone makes an allegation, you're already in trouble.

708
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so in the court documents, and this has

709
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 2: been been released extremely slowly, they would say these payments

710
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 2: have been made without justification, which is the allegation. I'm

711
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: obviously not there. It's an absentia, it's an inquisitorial system,

712
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 2: so there's no advocate for me there. They say, looks

713
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 2: like there's a lot of justification for these But if

714
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: if it's to believe that the club was in financial difficulty,

715
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: then then that's potentially a crime. So I would say, well,

716
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 2: the accounts certified by the auditor in the account and

717
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 2: by the way League and by an independent order to

718
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 2: myself and the board all say that it was in

719
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 2: a very good financial position. What are you using to

720
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 2: say that it wasn't. That's if that's my evidence, what's

721
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 2: your evidence? And it's we still haven't had the club'sment,

722
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the documents released from the court.

723
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 2: But I think and that's the only way it becomes

724
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 2: a criminal offense if they can link it to the

725
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: relegation two years later. So it's a case of the

726
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: allegations we're doing represent a reputational damage for a long time,

727
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: and they were understandably reluctant to release the actual details

728
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 2: of it, because if you go through the allegations, like

729
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 2: I've said publicly, where is the damage to the club?

730
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 2: If the player is given a salary advance and that

731
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 2: is paid back out of his salary over the course

732
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 2: of his contract, who's the victim?

733
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: Is that one of the allegations, Like you gave five

734
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: of the allegations, five allegations, Yeah.

735
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 2: And so in the court documents they say we accept

736
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 2: that these were paid back, So why are they in there?

737
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 2: Or if you say, in the case of Chris Whittaker,

738
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 2: it's paid seventy nine thousand euros, this is a board

739
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: approved decision that releases the club of its obligations to

740
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 2: Chris because we're changing the coach. Right, Chris was the

741
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: coach when they broke every record in the club's history.

742
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 2: But we're going in a different direction, no way around it.

743
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 2: If I don't pay it, the cub's obligated to pay it,

744
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 2: or he sues them. Who is the victim of this?

745
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: You know?

746
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: And are you saying these things were consented to end

747
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: or approved by either the management or the board.

748
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 2: I was the management, so it's I mean they have

749
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 2: to be approved by the bookkeeper, right, so they have

750
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 2: some obligation to have to be justified. You can't just

751
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 2: pay things. Really, I don't pay the things that she does,

752
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: and she has to see that it's justified. So you

753
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 2: need a sure convention l for the players that contracts

754
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: were finished or documentation to say that's a settlement. But yeah,

755
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 2: they're approved by the board. So it's not saying I'm

756
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 2: not saying these are approved by the board. So they

757
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 2: knew that there's an out. There was an allegation running

758
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: for years that when I disappeared in the verted Commas,

759
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 2: I stole a vehicle. They knew very well I didn't

760
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 2: steal steal the vehicle. They knew that the players paid

761
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 2: the money back. You know you would. There's no explanation

762
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 2: for not knowing that they paid that money back. So

763
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 2: why why you use them unless it was intentional to

764
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 2: try and exaggerate or fabricate the case against them.

765
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: So what do you think, Rocky, that they and whoever

766
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: they are, whoever it was, it sort of was behind

767
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: the a the commencement of the investigation by the police.

768
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: Why do you think they're trying to discredit Rocky Elsom in

769
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: that local area. What's the reason is that is behind

770
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: the discrediting of you? What's the advantage that's being sought,

771
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: if at all?

772
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 2: So everybody in their life wants to be judged favorably, right,

773
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: you want other people to say, this guy's done this,

774
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: did this, well, he's this, you received well you you

775
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 2: cannot escape the twenty eighteen You cannot escape escape the

776
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: anger from that. Just like Julbert Zun who was the

777
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 2: head of Rolling Garross, tournament director at the Tour de France.

778
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 2: He was the president when they are relegated in two

779
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 2: thousand and seven from the top fourteen. People talk about

780
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 2: it all the time. So in a village, if you

781
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 2: want to be judged well, right after twenty eighteen, they

782
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 2: it was not possible, right, because it's so important to

783
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: the town, their legacy is. A person is affected by that,

784
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: and so in a large way because of the relentlessness

785
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 2: of it, and you know the conviction. Look, you've got

786
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 2: to remember I was convicted of these things that I'm

787
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 2: saying to you. That distracts from that, not entirely. People

788
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 2: still remember to a degree, but it certainly does distract

789
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 2: from that. They do not want to be associated with

790
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: what happened to the club because they're still in the

791
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 2: amateur leagues now, and it's a way to deflect that.

792
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 2: And you know, the like I said, that would not

793
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 2: have washed in twenty eighteen, but eight years later or

794
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 2: six years later from there, it's more believable.

795
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: Are you saying that therefore you were a scapegoat for

796
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: what happened in those what seemed to be poor decisions

797
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: which resulted in a relegation in twenty eighteen, and both

798
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: sounds of many thrashings by other clubs which would have

799
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:04,439
Speaker 1: been abarrassing for the club, nab one. Are you saying

800
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: that they made rocky elso many years later and from

801
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: that period, but also built up many years later as

802
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: a sort of escapegoat for those outcomes.

803
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 2: Well, they definitely tried to. But you have to remember

804
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 2: the legal case hinges on me being connected to the

805
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 2: relegation in twenty eighteen, even though they were relegated on

806
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: sporting grounds.

807
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: In other words, they relegated because of decisions, poor decisions

808
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 1: that you made.

809
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they say publicly, they say seven hundred thousand years,

810
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 2: but in the court documents they say two hundred and

811
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 2: fifty thousand years worth of payments Chris Whittaker, Tom Boyden,

812
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 2: various others that, you know, small issue amounts. They had

813
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 2: a direct impact on the club which resulted in that

814
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 2: which illegally. That's incredibly difficult to make, but they have

815
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 2: to make that argument. That has to be made for

816
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 2: it to be warrant, to warrant a criminal case.

817
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 1: So where okay, so did you know the court case

818
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: was on? I mean, where were you when all this

819
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: conviction happened.

820
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 2: This is a really important part of it. I didn't

821
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 2: know the court case was on, and there was no

822
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 2: possible way for me to know.

823
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: You weren't hiding at the time.

824
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 2: So I was in the paper, you know, sometime earlier,

825
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 2: like not long before the actual trial, saying where I was,

826
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 2: what I was doing, and what my upcoming public public

827
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 2: events schedule was doing things with Leinster in Dublin. Right,

828
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 2: So there's no excuse to say they couldn't track me down,

829
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 2: although they didn't try, and that that's an important thing

830
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 2: I'm not saying. I don't think they tried hard enough.

831
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 2: When the court issue scheduled the trial and made an

832
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 2: arrest warrant for me that was suppressed. It wasn't made public,

833
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 2: so I had no way of knowing unless they told me,

834
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 2: and they they didn't attempt to tell me. Wow, it's

835
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 2: a huge thing, and it's the basis of an opposition.

836
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 2: So I'm hopeful that they hear that opposition and say

837
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 2: that the ruling should be thrown out rather than saying, Okay,

838
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 2: we need a retrial, right because I'm still I'm still wanted,

839
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:18,240
Speaker 2: I'm still to be detained, and I still have the conviction.

840
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 2: Whereas if I can get them, if the judge accepts

841
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 2: that they didn't try and they certainly haven't said anything

842
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 2: opposite to that, you know, from twenty thirteen onwards when

843
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 2: the trial was ordered, then it should be in theory

844
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 2: it should just be kicked out on it and they

845
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 2: can start again if they want. But then it's going

846
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 2: to involve me. It's going to involve asking questions of me.

847
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 2: It's going to allow for you know, my defense. But

848
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 2: that's a really important part. It was a decision in absentia,

849
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 2: but not that I didn't show that I had no

850
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: possible way of knowing and anecdotally that's obvious.

851
00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 1: Is so when yous in in Dublin just do anything

852
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:05,760
Speaker 1: living there, you were sort of in hiding in Dublin.

853
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: Did they try to arrest you?

854
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,879
Speaker 2: So? Yeah, So I had some legal advice where they

855
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 2: said you're probably an extraditional order. This is the one

856
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: case where French bureocracy might be to your advantage. You

857
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: probably got between two and six weeks. And I was like,

858
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 2: I don't know about that, and before it comes through,

859
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 2: so I got it, got the news packed my stuff.

860
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: How do you get the news? I mean, but you

861
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: got some secret sort of tunnel going into the court system.

862
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 2: My phone started blowing up. That's how I got the news.

863
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 2: So everyone else got it first, and so I would say,

864
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: people would say, is this all right? And it was

865
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 2: the first I heard of it, a five year sentence,

866
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 2: international arrest wine And I was scheduled to Leinster a

867
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 2: playing back at a famous stadium for the first time

868
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 2: since I played there. And I was scheduled to appear

869
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 2: there at that game, and they ran and said progress,

870
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 2: you don't come. So it was like everything was happening

871
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 2: at the same time. And so I if I was detained,

872
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: right this conversation. Preparing documents gets very difficult. I could

873
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 2: be detained for a long time. It's unlikely that I'd

874
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 2: get bail in front of the means possible. But you've

875
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 2: got to prepare for not being able to Ireland. Were

876
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 2: obliged to extradute me. So I was like, you cannot

877
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 2: get taken in for this, you cannot get arrested for this.

878
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: I can't be detained because expensive, time consuming. Emotionally it

879
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 2: would be more demanding. So I yeah, I left straight away,

880
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 2: and so I or soon after and left all my

881
00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 2: things in Dublin, just grabbed a backpack and and left.

882
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 2: And so you know, they say we couldn't find Rocky

883
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 2: for eight years the Garter inside and now I came

884
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 2: to where I worked, came to where I lived and

885
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 2: called me on the phone, and they called last and

886
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 2: I said, I'm not in Ireland, so it's not in

887
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 2: your jurisdiction. They were like, okay, no worries. If you

888
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 2: come back to Ireland, we're going to have to arrest you.

889
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, good to know.

890
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: So you took your just packed a backpack and just

891
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: left everything else. Blind have you got I don't know

892
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: this but have you got a wife or family, you married.

893
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 2: With kids or I don't have kids and I'm not married.

894
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 1: Not married. Okay, so you're a little bit more mobile

895
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 1: than most and but you literally just put something in

896
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: a backpack and took off.

897
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 2: I spoke to I got some advice. So I spoke

898
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 2: to a couple of lawyers. They all said, you're going

899
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 2: to be fine. They're not going to This is going

900
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 2: to take a while for the Garter, you know, the

901
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 2: Irish police to get this notification. They're probably not going

902
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 2: to do it. And then I got some advice from

903
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 2: another lawyer and she said, no, they have to extradite you.

904
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 2: There's no way around it, even in absentia. There's all

905
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 2: these examples of them doing it. They've got no and

906
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 2: you will be You'll be detained even if you try

907
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: and fight it, but most likely you'll be sent back

908
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 2: to France.

909
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: What sort of passport to you? Do you have an

910
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:29,439
Speaker 1: Irish European passport to You're an Irish background Australia just

911
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: just Australian, so you don't have any Irish parentage or

912
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 1: any of those sorts of things. You don't have any obviously,

913
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: you don't have any Greek parents, so you can't end

914
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: up in Greek or Greece or Spain. So when you

915
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:43,919
Speaker 1: make that decision, you're not going to tell me where

916
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:45,879
Speaker 1: you are, of course, but I'm trying to work out

917
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: from the screen behind you. That tells me nothing. How

918
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 1: do you work out where to go?

919
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 2: But you don't have unlimited options. But it was interesting

920
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 2: at the time because you get a lot of people saying, mate,

921
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 2: you're you know, like anything I can do to help, yeah,

922
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: And I definitely appreciated that. And then you get some

923
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 2: people that say, I know a guy's got a boat, yeah,

924
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 2: or something like, how about I hire a plane, you

925
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 2: get on it, we'll go to here. In this jurisdiction,

926
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,919
Speaker 2: they can't get you, you know, and people saying that,

927
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 2: which is like, I don't know if you're in a

928
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 2: crisis like that. Not that I could take them up

929
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 2: on it all the time, but it's like, that's what

930
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 2: you want, you know, a guy saying there's no extradition.

931
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,800
Speaker 2: If you can get here, you can't be extradited, and

932
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 2: things like that. So I looked into it myself and

933
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 2: then made a decision on what was the easiest. So

934
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 2: I only had one chop, I couldn't go to the

935
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 2: airport in Ireland, so I did you just get out

936
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 2: of it?

937
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,839
Speaker 1: So how important then was it for you to have

938
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: this support group? And how much of do you think

939
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: playing for Australia, Captain Australia and having a great rugby career,

940
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 1: how much of that do you think actually help bring

941
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,280
Speaker 1: build that sort of brotherhood type thing, you know, where

942
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 1: we're going to look after Rocky and get him out

943
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: of there, or if you can get to this particular place,

944
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 1: help him get away.

945
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 2: Almost nothing really, So it's like you hear the verdict,

946
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 2: people get worried. They go, well, they must might have

947
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,720
Speaker 2: been an issue. And what I had said to everyone,

948
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 2: you know, Dan Herbert, all the guys I played with,

949
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 2: just all you need to do for me, all you

950
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 2: need to do is say, just make it clear to

951
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 2: everyone that this is I was not there at it.

952
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 2: This is in a centire right, which is unusual for

953
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 2: English speakers to understand what that means, which means absolutely

954
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 2: no defense. And that was important to me because you

955
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 2: then your extradition in another country outside of Ireland, your

956
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 2: extradition could be blocked on the back of that because

957
00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 2: they don't respect those that process, but people understandably they

958
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:04,879
Speaker 2: get scared by it. Right. So the people that say

959
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 2: you would never and this is one of the one

960
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 2: of the great things is you would never expect who says,

961
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 2: matter te, I can do this, let's try and do this.

962
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 2: It's like yeah, like not not that I needed to

963
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 2: use them, but it's like a it comes down to

964
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 2: an individual thing. And I think in terms.

965
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 1: Of the did you get a surprise? Did anyone surprise you?

966
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,760
Speaker 1: Did anyone come out of the woodwork who maybe wasn't

967
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: a great friend.

968
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 2: All the time, really keeps Yeah, someone to go, you know,

969
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 2: because I like people don't run around saying, you know,

970
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 2: I'm infallible. You you have conflicts with people over time,

971
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,839
Speaker 2: and you would be surprised that people that reached out

972
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 2: and said, mate, this week, if you do this, I'll

973
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 2: make sure this happens here because you're in this jurisdiction

974
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 2: and it works like this here where I am. And yeah,

975
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 2: it was that was surprising.

976
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 1: And I guess to something to some extent you would

977
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 1: have looked at it like a bit of a blessing

978
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 1: because you could end up, you know, if the garter

979
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,439
Speaker 1: had have just popped around your house before you before

980
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,800
Speaker 1: instead of saying reaching out to you and had arrested

981
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: you in Ireland and then extra guided you. You could

982
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: have been sitting right now in a French jail somewhere.

983
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: You worried about that I.

984
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 2: Would have been And so what do you think about that? Yeah,

985
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 2: so one is sitting in the jar right uncomfortable, not

986
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 2: what you want to be doing. But the practical effect

987
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 2: of not being able to how that affects preparing your defense.

988
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 2: You know, how that affects all sorts of things is dramatic.

989
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:42,439
Speaker 2: The costs and the efficacy of you know, whoever's being

990
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 2: interviewed and getting statements and things like that. So it's

991
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 2: not just I didn't feel like going into a prison,

992
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 2: it's or being held in custody. It's that it makes

993
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 2: things so much harder.

994
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 1: So, yeah, you're an ease high performance coach, you're an

995
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 1: ex captain of your country. You're played at the highest

996
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: level in your sport. You know how to prepare, are

997
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: the people and yourself to be the best possible version

998
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: of yourself when you're in your sport, and also probably

999
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: an administration of a club. How those things equipped you

1000
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: for and how do you feel those things have equipped

1001
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: you for preparing for your defense. So are you going

1002
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: about it in the same detailed way, and what are

1003
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 1: you doing? And how do you and actually, by the way,

1004
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 1: how do you actually raise the defense? Do you need

1005
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: a new trial or what's the deal? Make an application?

1006
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 2: I can I trying to pose it because I wasn't notified.

1007
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 2: They haven't. They've said that I wasn't notified, or at

1008
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 2: least not indicated how I was notified. That can like

1009
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 2: they can overturn the decision straight off the that So

1010
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 2: that's the first thing. I have to deal with every

1011
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 2: allegation individually, right, So I have to look at what

1012
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 2: they've said and then and then, and you do that

1013
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 2: with statements and all sorts of things. I don't have

1014
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 2: all the information right now, all the documents, but I

1015
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 2: have a lot. So I wouldn't have been able to

1016
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 2: get those if I was in custody. But I think

1017
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 2: that in a situation like this, you're under pressure, right,

1018
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 2: And that's what it is when you play. And I

1019
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 2: think a lot of guys when they finished playing, they

1020
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 2: might not realize it, but they miss the pressure because

1021
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 2: the pressure pushes you to do things. And so in

1022
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 2: this scenario, I say this, I talk to you, and

1023
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 2: it seems like it's a certain way, but then you

1024
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 2: hear something from that counteracts that, or there's an article

1025
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 2: that's against that, and you just need to make sure

1026
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 2: that you exonerate yourself, that you do everything you can

1027
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 2: to put the the balance of probabilities in your favor.

1028
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 2: Not just legally, but you know, there's a practical nature

1029
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 2: to any legal case, and you know that's you know,

1030
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 2: I've got no choice, that's what I have to do.

1031
00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 1: Do you do feel any let's call it encouragement from

1032
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: the recent Julia Julian a science situation. I mean, I

1033
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 1: know his thing was sort of more on a global

1034
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 1: scale and global allegations against him, and he's fighting the

1035
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: US government, but to some extent the concepts are the same.

1036
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 1: Do you feel any encouragement that he eventually got free?

1037
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 2: Well, I think with a science there was an ideological argument,

1038
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 2: so you know, you would say, what he he's the

1039
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 2: free press, they are that's their job, right, And then

1040
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 2: the US at the time was saying, no, that's still

1041
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 2: a crime because it goes above, you know, in dangerous

1042
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 2: people's lives, and he goes above you know, what the

1043
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 2: press are allowed to do because it's it's dangerous. So

1044
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 2: you have this ideological argument or debate if you like.

1045
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 2: In this case, I think it's it's really clear, you know,

1046
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 2: if there's no victim, right, I shouldn't be convicted if

1047
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 2: it's and the opposition on technical grounds because they didn't

1048
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 2: notify me that as an avenue that I'll try. But

1049
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 2: there's no victim here. And so the US could say,

1050
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 2: and I don't think it's valid, but the US could say,

1051
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 2: well it endangered US lives, yeah, and Assrange would say, okay,

1052
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 2: but the freedom of the press is fundamental to our

1053
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 2: society and that's what it was, and longer term it

1054
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 2: would have saved more lives because of what it revealed.

1055
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 2: And so you have this argument where both both have

1056
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: strength to a degree. In this case, there's no victim.

1057
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 1: As Julian Assage reached out.

1058
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 2: To you, I haven't spoken to him, no, but.

1059
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 1: Maybe he should because he's one of the few people,

1060
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: at least from our country who's actually experienced this sort

1061
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 1: of thing, because this is pretty be honest, it's quite

1062
01:01:56,240 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: bizarre that an Australian is being, you know, convicted moreover

1063
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 1: a commercial thing. Than anything else. It's really around commerce

1064
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 1: as opposed to, as you say, a physical victim, a

1065
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 1: personal victim in absentia, in other words, not being there

1066
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 1: to defend himself and is now on the run to

1067
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 1: avoid being incarcerated, which would sort of hamper his ability

1068
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: to prepare a defense. I mean, I can see a

1069
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 1: movie coming out of this, by the way, but this

1070
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 1: is like a great story, Like it really is a

1071
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 1: great story, and your ability to defend your position is

1072
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:43,000
Speaker 1: going to become even the greatest story. It's going to

1073
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: be even a much more emphasis on this down the

1074
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 1: track as to how you strategize and what tactics you use, which,

1075
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:52,440
Speaker 1: by the way, is sort of things when you play footy,

1076
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 1: when you're captaining. Aside, those things are going to come

1077
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 1: into it. They're very very important. How are you feeling,

1078
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 1: I mean, like personally, mental, mental health wise, how are

1079
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 1: you feeling?

1080
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 2: Well? I got to keep focus on it because I

1081
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 2: have to win. You know. It's not as if I'm saying, well,

1082
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 2: I can accept that I did this wrong. What I'm

1083
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 2: saying is that I did nothing wrong and there was

1084
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 2: no victims, and so if I if that's to be upheld,

1085
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 2: I need to be right, and it needs to be thorough.

1086
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 2: I need needs to be no question because I already

1087
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 2: have the conviction. It's not beyond reasonable doubt like it

1088
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 2: might be in an Usheean court in the beginning. I've

1089
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 2: already been convicted. So I need to be one hundred

1090
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 2: percent right, and I need to make sure that happens.

1091
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 2: And as much as this is not a legal case,

1092
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 2: that's what I'm on here. So you say, Okay, this

1093
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 2: does get to them and they say, well, if there's

1094
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 2: something wrong and what I'm saying, they're going to try

1095
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 2: and say it. And then I'm going to have to

1096
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 2: return on that. And so there's an element of focus

1097
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 2: that that gives you because you've got to win.

1098
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 1: How do you sleep? I mean you sleep at not right,

1099
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: I mean you regime? But what's your regime, Rocky, Like,

1100
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 1: do you exercise? You sleep? You're sort of watching what

1101
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 1: you eat I mean, not drinking what I mean, what

1102
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 1: is your regime to stay really focused?

1103
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 2: I do exercise, so I probably train more than I should, right,

1104
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 2: so more than what's optimal, just to take the blood

1105
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 2: away from the brain, if you like. But I got

1106
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:25,440
Speaker 2: to take a call anytime it comes, you know, like

1107
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:27,840
Speaker 2: I said, whatever time of day it is, someone calls,

1108
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 2: you've got to be available for that. But I think

1109
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 2: you know, the way you eat helps, right, So I

1110
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 2: generally only eat meat, and then that does help a

1111
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 2: lot because you're not you're not going up and down

1112
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 2: with things. And I think that's the only thing I

1113
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 2: can do is get into a you know, kind of

1114
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 2: a strict regime of what I am doing so that

1115
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 2: I don't overanalyze, so that I don't you know, emotionally

1116
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 2: wear out. And you know that changes all the time.

1117
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 2: But you certainly have to do more than just focus

1118
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 2: on the case, that's for sure.

1119
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 1: How do you now rocky it in your forties mid forties,

1120
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 1: forty sorry, forty one, forty one? This is a big

1121
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 1: deal for a forty one year old. I would have thought, like,

1122
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's not a bad experience. It's not like

1123
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 1: you've been a criminal lawyer or your life or you've

1124
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:25,760
Speaker 1: been a criminal. This is a big deal.

1125
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:30,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I think I think because of that, it's

1126
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 2: like that's what helps you focus. So the reputational damage

1127
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 2: when you have something like this can be significant. And

1128
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 2: so it's not good enough for me just to get

1129
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 2: them to overturn it. You need to, you need to

1130
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 2: overcome all of that, and that's a lot of work,

1131
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,560
Speaker 2: all right. So you got two hundred articles in France

1132
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 2: saying how about a guy I am? I need the

1133
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:54,520
Speaker 2: same amount to outweigh that. Even just if somebody searches

1134
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 2: your name, this will come up unless you do something

1135
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 2: to replace it. And you I've got to keep focus

1136
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:04,920
Speaker 2: on that. Like the last thing you can do is

1137
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,480
Speaker 2: see yourself as a victim. You got to make sure

1138
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 2: you have this overturned and that it is completely rubbish

1139
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 2: as it should be. But that's you know, I'm the

1140
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 2: one that has to do that.

1141
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:21,760
Speaker 1: Well, Well, Rocky, Saturday morning here and when we're recording this,

1142
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 1: I don't know where you are, what time it is.

1143
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:29,960
Speaker 1: But as an Australian, as an avid fan of Australian

1144
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 1: great Australian sportsman as I am, and I'm sure I'm

1145
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 1: talking on behalf of a lot of Australian, we hope

1146
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: that you get the outcome that you need. I don't

1147
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 1: like to think of an Australian sort of ducking and

1148
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 1: weaving in dark corridors and places and wherever the hell

1149
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 1: you are, and that you get your fair chance to

1150
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 1: be heard in a fair environment, and good luck to

1151
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 1: your Rocky elsom and I thank you for your.

1152
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 2: Time, mate, Thanks mate, thanks for me on. I'm Christia