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Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Christanamio.

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Speaker 1: It's Monday, January sixth Australians will have to wait until

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Speaker 1: twenty thirty for living standards to go back up. That's

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Speaker 1: according to a fresh analysis of the government's midyear economic update,

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Speaker 1: and one of the country's leading economists says a lack

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Speaker 1: of bipartisanship on productivity is to blame. Orcus is coming,

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Speaker 1: but Australian companies aren't prepared to take up the lucrative

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Speaker 1: contracts on offer as part of the Defense Pact. Just

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Speaker 1: one company has received the globally recognized nuclear safety certification

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Speaker 1: required to do the job. Those exclusive stories are live

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Speaker 1: right now at The Australian dot com dot Au Australian's podcast.

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Speaker 1: Shandy's Story was back in the spotlight last year after

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Speaker 1: Shandy Blackburn's ex boyfriend sued for defamation. He claimed his

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Speaker 1: reputation was seriously harmed when National Chief correspondent Hedley Thomas

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Speaker 1: reported a coroner's finding that he did kill Shandy in

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Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. Peros has always denied any wrongdoing, and in August,

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Speaker 1: a Queensland Supreme Court Judge dismissed the defamation action. This

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Speaker 1: episode originally aired on July thirty one and explored a

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Speaker 1: big question, is it okay for journalists to question a

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Speaker 1: jury's finding. It's hosted by The Australian's editorial director and

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Speaker 1: the regular host of The Front, Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 2: It's one of the most harrowing cases in Australian history.

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Speaker 3: I just yelled out as anyone got a torch, Dingo's

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Speaker 3: got my baby?

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Speaker 4: The verdict in Missus Chamberlain's case guilty for mister Chamberlain guilty.

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Speaker 4: Missus Chamberlain was then sentenced to life imprisonment.

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Speaker 5: Today it has ended with the fourth coronial inquest finding

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Speaker 5: that Azaria Chamberlain was killed by Dingo, as her parents

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Speaker 5: had claimed. From the beginning.

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Speaker 2: The story of Lindy Chamberlain and her husband Michael, whose

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Speaker 2: nine week old baby Azaria died at Ularu in nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 2: It's one of our greatest miscarriages of justice. A family's

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Speaker 2: life ruined by a wrongful conviction. A jury found them guilty.

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Speaker 2: Three decades later, a coroner, examining fresh evidence, said they

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Speaker 2: were not guilty. This is Coroner Elizabeth Morris in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 6: Please accept my sincere sympathy on the death of your

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Speaker 6: special and loved daughter, insists her Azaria.

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Speaker 7: I'm so sorry for your loss.

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Speaker 5: Time does not remove.

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Speaker 6: The pain and sadness of the death of a child.

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Speaker 2: The case of Aaria Chamberlain was invoked in the Queensland

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court on Wednesday by Justice Peter Applegarth. He's hearing

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Speaker 2: another case where a jury's decision went the opposite way

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Speaker 2: to a coroner.

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Speaker 8: The coroner found the Dingo did it? A Darwin jury

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Speaker 8: finds Lyndy Chamberlain did it. The coroner was right.

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Speaker 2: This is the matter of John Perros. He was acquitted

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Speaker 2: by a jury in twenty nineteen of murdering his ex

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Speaker 2: girlfriend Shandy Blackburn, but he was found by a coroner

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty to be the murderer. We're using a

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Speaker 2: voice actor to bring you the judge's words as spoken

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Speaker 2: in court.

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Speaker 8: So don't we have something similar here that the jury

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Speaker 8: acquitted the tone of episode thirteen is doing their duty.

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Speaker 8: They should have acquitted on the evidence that was before them,

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Speaker 8: but the coroner made these findings on additional evidence.

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Speaker 2: The judge was questioning David Helvajian, a barrister representing John

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Speaker 2: Perros in his defamation case sparked by The Australian's blockbuster

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Speaker 2: investigative podcast Shandy's Story. Perros has always denied killing Shandy,

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Speaker 2: just as Applegarth is asking this. Just like in the

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Speaker 2: Chamberlain case, the jury in John Perros's case did not

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Speaker 2: have the same evidence that the coroner was later able

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Speaker 2: to consider. The podcast pointed this out and even quoted

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Speaker 2: Shandy's mother saying if she was on the jury, she

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Speaker 2: would probably have acquitted Perros because the evidence just wasn't there.

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Speaker 2: So the judge wants to know. Isn't the podcast allowed

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Speaker 2: to point this out? Here's what David Helvajian, representing John Perros,

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Speaker 2: told the court.

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Speaker 7: My submission still stands that episode thirteen causes serious harm

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Speaker 7: because of the removal of any doubt. It imputes murderer

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Speaker 7: and tells the listener why they can be sure of murderer.

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Speaker 2: This case is a big deal, not just for us

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Speaker 2: at The Australian, but for journalism more generally. If a

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Speaker 2: jury makes one finding and a coroner makes another, how

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Speaker 2: are journalists supposed to report Shandy Blackburn was left to

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Speaker 2: die in a gutter in the North Queensland tropical city

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Speaker 2: of Mackay in February twenty thirteen. She had been stabbed

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Speaker 2: more than twenty times as she walked home from work.

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Speaker 2: Her ex boyfriend John Perros was charged and acquitted of

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Speaker 2: the murder, but a coroner who compelled Perros to give evidence,

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Speaker 2: found he did stab Shandy to death. That would have

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Speaker 2: been the end of it, because once acquitted, Perros could

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Speaker 2: not be tried again without fresh evidence, until investigative journalist

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Speaker 2: Headley Thomas came along with his twenty twenty one podcast

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Speaker 2: for the Australian Shandy's Story. This is a moment from

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Speaker 2: episode one of shandy Story.

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Speaker 9: Shandy and John were sometimes in passionate all consuming love

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Speaker 9: and at other times in deep, self doubting despair at

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Speaker 9: their exhausting, abusive rows. The jealousies were toxic. John had

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Speaker 9: made no secret of what he called his serious trust issues.

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Speaker 2: In that first episode, Headley explored doubts over who really

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Speaker 2: killed Shandy.

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Speaker 9: I've interviewed Mackay friends of John Perros and talked to

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Speaker 9: others at length off the record. They described John as

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Speaker 9: gentle and caring, a tough fighter in the boxing ring,

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Speaker 9: but a good natured soul and loyal to a fault,

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Speaker 9: A bit intense in relationships, yes, but surely not a murderer.

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Speaker 2: Perros is not complaining about the first twelve episodes of

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Speaker 2: this podcast. He says episode thirteen defamed him by suggesting

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Speaker 2: the jury got it wrong and he was in fact

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Speaker 2: a murderer, and that's why he's suing Nationwide News, publisher

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Speaker 2: of The Australian, Headley Thomas, and Shandy's sister, Shanna Blackburn.

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Speaker 2: The Australian's lawyers want the judge to listen to episodes

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Speaker 2: one to twelve as well, because they say there's a

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Speaker 2: huge amount of context and background that ensures the podcast

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Speaker 2: is fair to Perros and allows the audience to make

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Speaker 2: up its own mind. Peros's lawyers are arguing in court

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Speaker 2: that most Australians were unaware of the coroner's finding that

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Speaker 2: Peros was a murderer. They say because Shandy's story was

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Speaker 2: wildly popular, sitting at the top of the podcast charts

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Speaker 2: for months, it caused serious harm to his reputation. A

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Speaker 2: date has not yet been set for the full hearing

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Speaker 2: of this trial. What's happening right now in the Queensland

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Speaker 2: Supreme court is a high stakes preliminary hearing where Dowd's

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Speaker 2: obtained s C counsel for the defendants, that is, the

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Speaker 2: Australian Headley and Shanna is attempting to have Peros's case

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Speaker 2: thrown out before the case even begins. It all turns

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Speaker 2: on a notion called serious harm under defamation law. Perros

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Speaker 2: has to demonstrate the publication he's complaining about Episode thirteen

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Speaker 2: caused him serious harm, but Sibptain says that can't possibly

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Speaker 2: be the case.

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Speaker 4: The coroner's finding is a true fact. Episode thirteen has

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Speaker 4: said nothing more than the conclusion to which the coroner

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Speaker 4: came he is a killer. The real cause of the

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Speaker 4: harm to the plaintiff's reputation is because the coroner made

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Speaker 4: a finding. Had it not been for that finding, this

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Speaker 4: podcast may never have been made.

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Speaker 2: Episode thirteen included emotional interviews with Shandy's mother and sister,

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Speaker 2: and examinations of how the coroner had before him evidence

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Speaker 2: that Dury never got to hear. For example, the coroner

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Speaker 2: had access to CCTV of what he accepted was John

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Speaker 2: Perros's car driving near the scene of Shandy's murder, and

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Speaker 2: evidence about when John Perros's phone was turned on and off.

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Speaker 2: The coroner had access to John Perros's initial record of

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Speaker 2: interview with police, and the coroner compelled Perros to give evidence,

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Speaker 2: something Peros didn't want to do for fear of incriminating himself.

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Speaker 4: To say of somebody that they are a murderer. It's

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Speaker 4: been found that he's a murderer. To call him a murderer,

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Speaker 4: or to say, yeah, I agree with that finding. What

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Speaker 4: more harm does that do? How is its serious harm?

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Speaker 2: Just as Peter Applegarth put this to Dowd's obtain, Episode

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Speaker 2: thirteen presented all these facts, but it also endorsed the

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Speaker 2: coroner's findings and suggested the jury got it wrong.

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Speaker 8: It bolsters the coroner's finding to something that may be right,

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Speaker 8: may be wrong, probably right, to something that is definitely right.

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Speaker 4: They are true facts that there was evidence that was

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Speaker 4: heard by the coroner that was not heard by the jury.

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Speaker 4: Episode thirteen was a revelation of those facts were part

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Speaker 4: of the finding and providing some explanation to the listeners.

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Speaker 4: How could he have been acquitted? Well, it was made

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Speaker 4: plain the coroner had evidence the jury didn't have.

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Speaker 2: After the break exactly what episode thirteen said original Investigative

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Speaker 2: reporting is what we do at The Australian every day.

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Speaker 2: In a world of misinformation and hot takes. You can

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Speaker 2: invest in reliable, credible journalism for a lot less than

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Speaker 2: the price of your morning coffee. Right now, it's a

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Speaker 2: dollar a week for the first four weeks. Check us

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Speaker 2: out at the Australian dot com dot ayu and we'll

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Speaker 2: be back after this break. In court on Tuesday, David Helvajian,

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Speaker 2: the barrister representing John Perros, took the judge through the

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Speaker 2: tr transcript of episode thirteen and explained why he believed

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Speaker 2: it caused serious harm to his client. We'll play the

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Speaker 2: lines from the episode with David Helvagian's commentary. We've used

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Speaker 2: a voice actor to bring you David Helvagian's words. First,

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Speaker 2: you'll hear the real audio from episode thirteen with Shanna

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Speaker 2: Blackburn speaking to Headley Thomas.

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Speaker 5: One matter of fact, it was him, how can you

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Speaker 5: be so sure?

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Speaker 7: And then we have these lines that I say directly

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Speaker 7: go to this publication establishing that the acquittal was wrong.

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Speaker 5: Because I've seen more evidence than what was presented at

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Speaker 5: the trial. We know the evidence that was ruled out

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Speaker 5: before the trial, we know the evidence that hasn't been seen,

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Speaker 5: and it's undeniable. When you have seen all that evidence

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Speaker 5: together that there is any other person responsible.

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Speaker 9: For this, then what you are saying is that he's

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Speaker 9: got away with murder.

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Speaker 5: I think it's a letdown in our justice system.

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Speaker 7: Prior to episode thirteen. My submission is the most likely

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Speaker 7: inference is people know the plaintiff is one of two suspects.

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Speaker 7: They know about the coroner's findings. There's a question in

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Speaker 7: their minds why there's a dichotomy between a jury acquittal

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Speaker 7: within two hours versus a coroner's findings. Mister Perros is

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Speaker 7: a suspect with mister William Daniel, and there's a big

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Speaker 7: question mark as to who really committed the murder.

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Speaker 2: Helvajian had earlier presented as evidence a few anonymous Reddit comments,

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Speaker 2: including these.

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Speaker 5: One hundred percent he did just listen to this. Her

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Speaker 5: ex absolutely did it.

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Speaker 7: That kind of certainty is what episode thirteen provides, and

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Speaker 7: that's where serious harm arises.

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Speaker 2: In episode thirteen, heavily Thomas tells the audience John Perros's phone,

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Speaker 2: which was rarely turned off, had been switched off on

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Speaker 2: the nights before Shandy's murder, Headley spoke to Vicky Blackburn,

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Speaker 2: Shandy's mother.

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Speaker 9: Now, the jurors in John's murder trial didn't hear anything

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Speaker 9: about John's mobile phone usage and that inactivity, but Vicky

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Speaker 9: and Shammer and the cops knew it.

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Speaker 3: He went to three nights, he did the same thing.

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Speaker 3: He turned his phone off at the same time. He

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Speaker 3: tried that for three nights and got a successful.

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Speaker 7: Vicki Blackburn, the victim's mother, insinuates that he got lucky

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Speaker 7: that night she was walking home from work the prior

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Speaker 7: knight she got picked up by her boyfriend. The insinuation

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Speaker 7: is he was stalking. Now that evidence wasn't before the jury,

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Speaker 7: so it's another element that undercuts the acquittal.

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Speaker 2: In my submission, David Helvagian read to the judge words

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Speaker 2: in the episode from former detective Scott Furlong. Hey, we're

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Speaker 2: discussing the fact that some of the evidence that was

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Speaker 2: before the coroner had not been put to the jury.

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Speaker 2: She is got Furlong talking to Headley in episode thirteen.

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Speaker 2: Scott Furlong speaks first, So what.

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Speaker 10: Would the baggyars detective know about prosecuting a case or

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Speaker 10: trust the process?

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Speaker 11: I hear that at the same time, as you've said,

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Speaker 11: you're so disappointed because in your view, you arrested the

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Speaker 11: right person. So therefore the process you've trusted has freed

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Speaker 11: the killer.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, take that one to bed with you.

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Speaker 8: It's hard to get the hair around that, it is.

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Speaker 10: But yeah, you feel you've let the family down, You

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Speaker 10: feel you let the community down to have a not

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Speaker 10: guilty verdict when you know in your heart of hearts

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Speaker 10: that there's somebody that's responsible for her murder and you

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Speaker 10: arrested that person and put them before the courts.

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Speaker 5: We did our part.

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Speaker 8: We caught the killer in my.

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Speaker 2: Here's how David Helvagian described that in court on Tuesday.

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Speaker 7: Now, if comments like that do not remove any doubt

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Speaker 7: in the listener's mind, it actually gets worse in my

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Speaker 7: respectful submission.

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Speaker 2: Episode thirteen also featured someone who listeners to Shandy's story

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Speaker 2: wouldn't know well, forensic scientist Kirsty Wright. She examined why

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Speaker 2: the DNA samples from Shandy's crime scene and John Perros's

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Speaker 2: car yielded no useful evidence for John's trial. Kirsty's work

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Speaker 2: led to stunning revelations in the podcast that Queensland's entire

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Speaker 2: DNA processing system was deeply flawed. David Helvagian told the

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Speaker 2: court it all added up to a strong insinuation in

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Speaker 2: the episode that the coroner was right and the jury

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Speaker 2: was wrong, and he said it was all made worse

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Speaker 2: by the fact The Australian is a high quality publication.

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Speaker 7: This is an investigative true crime podcast with experience, credibility, expertise.

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Speaker 7: It's not a headline or a two column piece.

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Speaker 2: Helvadjin also said episode thirteen presented itself as the final

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Speaker 2: conclusion that Peros did it.

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Speaker 7: Episode thirteen so leads to certainty that it causes serious harm.

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Speaker 7: How can it otherwise when you have such a credible

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Speaker 7: publication interviewing the investigative police officer, the mother of the victim,

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Speaker 7: the sister of the victim, a DNA expert, a criminal

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Speaker 7: lawyer who says it's bad evidence. Those will point in

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Speaker 7: my respectful submission to the end of the story.

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Speaker 1: You can read all the nation's at best news, sport,

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Speaker 1: politics and business anytime at The Australian dot com dot

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Speaker 1: au

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Speaker 5: Ky