WEBVTT - The AFP's failure to investigate itself 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:10.640 Hi, I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.239 The AFP is in charge of investigating the country's most 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:19.760 serious crimes, terrorism, corruption, drugs and human trafficking. But a 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:22.799 new report from the Commonwealth Ombardsman has suggested that the 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.920 thing it's not good at is investigating itself. It's found 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:30.200 that the agency is dismissing complaints that should be investigated, 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:36.280 including allegations of corruption and assault. Today journalist Karen Middleton 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.000 on allegations inside the AFP and what they tell us 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:52.880 about the culture of the agency. It's Wednesday, July twenty three. 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.560 So Karen, you've been looking into the report just released 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:01.600 into internal complaints at the AFP. Tell me what you've uncovered. 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:06.480 Well, the Commonwealth Ombardsman is responsible for overseeing the operations 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.039 of the AFP and the Ombardsman files a series of 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:13.000 reports every year on aspects of those operations. One of 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:17.759 those is about its handling of complaints against its own 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:22.360 offices and staff. And we've just seen a report tabled 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.679 by the Obodsman in the last week or so looking 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:27.880 at that. Now, there's a bit of a lag in 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.480 these reports. They aren't published for a year or so 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:33.760 beyond the period that they look at, so this report 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:36.360 is really from twenty twenty three to twenty four, and 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:39.600 there was a change to the way the AFP managed 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:42.160 its complaints in the middle of twenty twenty three. It 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:46.440 went from using regionally based bodies right around the country 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:50.680 to one centralized body. But what this report suggests is 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:54.680 there's a pretty chronic overuse of the power of discretion 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.600 that is given under law to the Commissioner of the 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:04.800 AFP to you dismiss complaints without any further action or investigation. 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.400 Now that power is a delegated power. He doesn't exercise 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:12.760 it personally directly himself. It is exercised by that complaint's body. 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:16.560 But the list of complaints that are being dismissed has 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.120 gone up pretty dramatically. If we look at the figures 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.760 in that report, they show that in the year before 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:27.280 that centralization occurred, just thirty two percent of complaints were 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:31.239 being dismissed under this discretionary power. In the year after 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:35.160 it began, the rate was eighty five percent. And the 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.480 Ombudsman is very concerned about that. The Ombudsman's report says 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.639 they found that in nine of the eleven instances they 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.760 reviewed the use of the discretionary power was unreasonable, unfair 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:48.480 and failed to meet the requirements of the legislation. 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:52.680 Okay, can you tell me what kind of complaints we're 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:54.840 talking about, what sort of alleged conduct. 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.359 Well, I think the most prominent of the examples it 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:02.040 gives is allegations of the personal misuse of police vehicles. 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.280 So there's not a lot of detail about exactly what happened, 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:09.040 whether these were marked or unmarked police cars, but the 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:14.040 suggestion was that they had been used inappropriately. The obitsmen 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:15.960 found that when the police were asked to explain this, 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.800 its response was that even though the guidelines for using 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:23.440 police vehicles were clear, it had discovered that officers didn't 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:27.200 understand them and that the practice of using police vehicles 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:31.400 personally was widespread, so they took no further action. The 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:34.600 Commonwealth Combitsmen's taken a very dim view of that and 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:37.360 says that it needs to be referred to the National 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:43.440 Anti Corruption Commission for examination as potential serious systemic corruption. 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.440 The example of the police vehicles dated back to before 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.720 the switchover in the complaints handling, and also before the 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:54.840 Anti Corruption Commission, which we call the NAC had been created. 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.760 Prior to that, there was another body that was responsible 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:02.120 for investigating police corruption allegation see Australian Commission for Law 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:06.240 Enforcement Integrity. But in this case it was found that 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.120 it was referred to them. Initially they sent it back 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.560 to the police and said, look, you look into this, 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.880 let us know if you find any evidence of wrongdoing. 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.919 The police did uncover what the Ombardsman says could have 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.479 actually been admissions and a number of other pieces of 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:26.000 information that were potentially useful, but it was never referred 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:30.200 formally and that really was why the Ombodsman has decided 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.800 that it needs proper investigation and the police have agreed 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.040 to do that, and they've also agreed to set up 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:41.400 their own separate external inquiry into the whole complaints handling system. 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.840 They've appointed a law firm to run that. They consulted 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:47.120 the Obardsmen in the course of setting that up and 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:48.960 that should start by the end of the month. 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:52.200 So that particular case is going to the knack now 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:56.520 that the Onwardsman has I suppose pointed it out in 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:01.680 their report, But tell me more about other cases that 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:08.040 they identified where the AFP hadn't fully pursued an investigation 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:10.720 where perhaps the Onwardsmen thinks that they should. 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.720 Have found well. The Obousman found one allegation of sexual 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:17.880 misconduct against AFP personnel who had been dealing with a 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:22.279 person in custody. Now that was also dismissed without further investigation, 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.359 on the basis that the body cam vision that the 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:29.120 police were wearing didn't substantiate the allegation. But when the 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:31.880 Obodsman's office reviewed the footage, they found but nineteen minutes 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:35.440 of it was missing, and no record that either the 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.400 people who were accused or the specific complainant had been 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.119 contacted for their version. And there was another complaint about 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.920 an officer inappropriately using a firearm in the workplace. Now 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.080 that was dismissed on the basis that the person had 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.359 already been counseled. But the Onbardsman has found that this 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:56.960 didn't reflect the seriousness of the allegations. It didn't properly 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.960 consider comments that were contained in the complaint that other 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.440 personnel felt unsafe when this had happened, and there seemed 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:05.680 to be no if it made to establish whether this 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.760 was a service weapon, a real weapon, or a training 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.679 weapon a replica. So there were a range of concerns 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.960 the onbitsmen had and said that needed further examination. 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:20.760 After the break. Why the AFP is allowed to decide 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:34.279 not to investigate itself, Karen. Central to all of this 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:40.159 is the idea that serious allegations of misconduct, at times 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:42.760 or at least in one case, potentially reaching the level 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:46.800 of corruption, have been identified but then dismissed or not 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:51.080 investigated further within the AFP. So can you tell me 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:53.839 a bit about how that decision is made. 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.479 Yes, So, this legislation that governs the AFP's operations, it's 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:00.960 the Australian Federal Police Act, and there's one section in 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:06.440 that section forty TF that gives the Commissioner the discretion 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.880 to take no further action on a complaint. Even though 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.720 that is a power that is ultimately the commissioners, it's 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:16.800 a delegated power. So it's the complaints handling body that 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:21.080 really exercises that discretion and makes the decision on whether 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:23.800 or not things should be further investigated. So that seems 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:28.520 to be where these problems are centered. The almostmen found 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.520 that these sort of first pass assessments that the body 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.920 was doing didn't always consider a whole lot of other 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:39.040 available evidence, you know, other verifying information, what other sources 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:42.760 there might be that they could pursue, witnesses or other records. 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.880 Didn't always consider that any available evidence might be highly 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.160 credible even though it was limited. Didn't look at whether 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.840 more investigation could be required to establish the basic facts 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.440 before making a ruling, or whether the seriousness of the 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:02.800 allegations just naturally necessitated taking more steps to inquire about 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:04.680 them before making a determination. 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.920 Okay, so is the ombudsman critical then of either the 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.080 Central Complaints Body or the leadership of the AFP. 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:14.880 Well, Interestingly, he notes that there has been an old 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.440 quote a particularly high repeat of issues over the last 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:22.160 six years, and that is actually the time that the 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:24.840 AFP Commissioner Rees Kershaw has been in his job. He 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:28.400 started there in twenty nineteen. Now, as I say, it's 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.560 a delegated power, so it's not a power that he 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:35.120 personally has exercised. But the Home Affairs Minister, when I 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:39.719 asked his office about that timeline, has backed in the 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.840 commissioner and says Commissioner Kershaw is an impressive leader and 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.800 enjoys my confidence. So he's certainly not raising any concerns 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:48.120 about the Commissioner. 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:53.199 Personally okay, But all of this, what does it tell 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.480 you about the culture within the AFP at the moment. 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.880 Well, I think the concern it raises is the risk 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:05.600 that there's a perception of impunity among the police about 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.520 complaints against themselves. And of course the police is a 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:12.760 very important institution, but they depend very heavily on public trust, 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:15.839 and the ombudsman is saying that this is now looking 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:20.160 like a pattern of failing to completely investigate or even 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:25.079 do an initial examination of too many allegations. When I 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:29.640 ask the AFP for specific responses to what the ombardsmen found, 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.280 it points to the fact that it's setting up this 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.280 independent review and it says that this is to ensure 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:39.760 the police force quote maintains a mature and defensible complaint 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:44.640 management system unquote, and it also insists that the internal 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:48.880 mandatory reporting regimes that it has on professional standards, which 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:53.319 include allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct, are robust. 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:55.840 So do you get the sense then that what the 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.400 omwardsman has found is being taken seriously by the AFP. 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.600 Yes, they've accepted the majority of the recommendations the obodsmen made, 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.160 but there are a handful that they've only partially agreed to. 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.000 And what isn't clear from the report is which bits 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.840 of those they've agreed to and which they haven't. So 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.920 there are some caveats on what they're doing. But they have, 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:19.160 as I say, said, they will send that allegation about 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:22.800 police car' misuse to the Anti Corruption Commission, and they've 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:26.400 undertaken to re examine some of the issues that the 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:31.040 Ombudsman recommends looking at. What they haven't fully committed to 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.400 is re examining some of the cases where the Ombudsman 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:38.200 says that things were classified too low in terms of 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.040 the level of the complaint. Some of those the Obodsmen 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.800 thinks should have been upper category, which would have warranted 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.120 a different kind of investigation and would have had potentially 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.840 more serious consequences, and the Ombodsman Ian Anderson was concerned 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.439 that things were being kind of downgraded to dismiss them 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:57.680 more readily. Now the police have said they'll re examine 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:00.559 their way they categorize these complaints, but they haven't yet 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:05.400 committed to re examining and reinvestigating if necessary, some of 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.040 those key complaints that the Obotsman. 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:11.400 Raised, And so Karen, it seems like the AFP is 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.000 tasked with the job of investigating itself in a lot 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:17.120 of these instances. So do you think that there is 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.760 a question there about whether or not that is appropriate. 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:25.079 Well, the Ombudsman hasn't specifically suggested that somebody else should 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.760 be doing the job, but I think the implication in 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.840 the level of criticism in this report is that the 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.280 AFP should certainly be doing the job better. 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.360 Well, Karen, thank you so much for your time today. 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.920 Thanks Ruby. 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:55.199 Also in the news today, Pauline Hanson has nominated Independent 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:59.160 Senator David Pocock for the role of Senate President. Pocock 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.480 declined the nomine nation, saying he was flattered and surprised, 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.840 but focused on his role representing the ACT. Labour's Sue 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.200 Lines was returned to the role after beating the Greens 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:13.520 Penny Almond Pain fifty five twelve and new figures show 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.080 an alarming increase in the number of women and girls 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:20.559 seeking homelessness support. Homelessness Australia research shows there's been an 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.760 increase from twenty four thousand, five hundred and seventeen women 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.920 and girls seeking help in May twenty twenty two up 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.440 to almost thirty thousand in March of this year. The 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:32.840 figures also show an increase in the number of females 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.439 at risk of homelessness. Almost half of women and girls 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:40.760 looking for support had experienced domestic and family violence. I'm 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.320 Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.