1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: Professor Norman Rosenthal. Welcome to the podcast. 2 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 2: Thank you. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: It is very nice to have a distinguished professor of 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: psychiatry tell us about your time working at the National 5 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: Institute of Mental Health. Are you're still there? I still 6 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: associated with them. 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: No, I was there for twenty years, but it's been 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 2: a while, and so I think I did what I 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: needed to do there. I basically described or led the 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 2: team that described a seasonal effective disorder or SAD WOW, 11 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 2: and did the original work with light therapy, which was 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 2: considered as a joke by a lot of people, but 13 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: then it got replicated all over in the United States 14 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: and Europe, I swear, and then it became widely accepted. 15 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 2: So that was the main thing that I did there. 16 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: I did a lot of other things, but that was 17 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 2: the big, the big thing that I came there for 18 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: and that it gave me the opportunity to do so. 19 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: And that was a pretty big contribution to science. And 20 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: actually because of that, when I travel to international travel, 21 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: I have a little light box that I actually bring 22 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: with me just to help me to set to the 23 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: time zone. So the power of light is pretty amazing, 24 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: isn't it. 25 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 2: Yes, But that was not understood you know, up until 26 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,919 Speaker 2: the late nineteen eighties. Wow, And you know, so I 27 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 2: came in on the crest of the new science of 28 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: light and the fact that it doesn't just help you 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: see things, but it actually enables you to sleep well, 30 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,279 Speaker 2: feel good all year round, et cetera. 31 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, we will dig into all things light 32 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: a little bit lately. But something I noticed in your 33 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: bio is you talk about the gift of adversity, and 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: my letters will know that that certainly appeals to me. 35 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: I'm a big fan in harnessing discomfort. I've written a 36 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: book called Death by Comfort, So talk to us about 37 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: the gift of adversity. What's that all about from your viewpoint? 38 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 2: Well? It actually I'm so glad you're asking me, because 39 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 2: it's really one of my favorite books. It's a personal narrative, 40 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 2: except I've used my capacity as a psychiatrist and thinker 41 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: to try and see what did I extract from a 42 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 2: series of events that go all the way from childhood 43 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 2: in South Africa to adolescents in South Africa and then 44 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: to the United States, where I came to do psychiatry 45 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 2: at New York Psychiatric Ensuite Columbia, And then I talk 46 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: about heroes of mine and how I learned from their adversities, 47 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: and then the process of saying farewell to some of 48 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 2: the important people you encounter, which is an adversity that 49 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: we all have to deal with if we live to 50 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: a certain age. So I came into it thinking of 51 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: I'll write down all the lessons that nobody ever taught me, 52 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 2: and then as we looked through what those lessons were. 53 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: They always were lessons that happened when things went wrong, 54 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: and they could have gone wrong because you make a mistake, 55 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: or it could be because of bad luck or all 56 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: of the above, and whatever the reason is. Not only 57 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: do you need to overcome the consequence of the adversity, 58 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: but then once you're over or that acute phase, to say, okay, 59 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: so what have I learned here? And how am I 60 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: going to take that going forward and not repeat it. 61 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: It reminds me of the quote from the great Stoic 62 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: philosopher Seneca. I pity the man who's never faced adversity, 63 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: because he has never faced an opponent, and no one, 64 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: not even he knows what he's capable of. I take 65 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: it it's kind of along those veins, those lessons that 66 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: you talk about. 67 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: You know, I have never actually encountered that particular verse, 68 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 2: but it since chills down my spine when you read 69 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: it because it's so true, and it shows you how 70 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 2: truth endures over millennia when it's profoundly stated and it's 71 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: just stated as a fact, and actually it is a fact. Yeah. 72 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: And Epictatus also says that we must all undergo a 73 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: hard winter training and not enter into lightly that for 74 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: which we have not prepared. And he was obviously talking 75 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: about life when he said that, So, so tell us 76 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: there is there in your view as a psychiatrist, the 77 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: war is the line between when adversity is actually good 78 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: for you and then when it becomes bad for you. 79 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: And I presume I'm guessing that it depends very much 80 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: on the individual and their psychological attitude and maybe some 81 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: encouragement of others. What sort of factors go into whether 82 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: some people benefit from adversity and some people can get 83 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: broken by the same adversity. 84 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is that you've got to live 85 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: to tell the tale. That goes without saying. But when 86 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: you live, what do you take away from that? And 87 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: part of that depends upon your own strengths and assets 88 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 2: that you bring to bear, your ability to connect with 89 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 2: other people who can help you get out of the adversity. 90 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 2: You know, as I'm giving you these examples, I think 91 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 2: of cases in point. For example, I got hooked into 92 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: a scam, which is a horrible thing to happen because 93 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: the first thing is you lose much more money than 94 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: you want to lose. Not that anybody wants to lose 95 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: any money at all, but usually if anybody's gone to 96 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 2: the trouble to scam you, it's not for a couple 97 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 2: of dollars, it's for a goodly sum of money. And 98 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: through connecting with various people who helped me, I got 99 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: out of I got all that money back, which was 100 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 2: really unusual. And so use your assets and use your 101 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 2: connections and use whatever you can to overcome that adversity. 102 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 2: And then don't let it happen again, because somebody who's 103 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: been scammed once can easily be scammed again. These people 104 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: are very clever and they'll come at you with different approaches, 105 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: even something as simple as a text it arrived today 106 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: on my cell phone saying there's a parcel waiting for 107 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: you at the at the that's came through customs and 108 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: it's waiting for you at the Federal Express or whatever, 109 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: and all you need to do to reclaim it is 110 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: click on this link. And there's many variations of it. 111 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: And you know, you think the parcel. Could it be 112 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: Aunt Tilly who has finally sent me the gift she's 113 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 2: been promising me. You know, your mind can go off 114 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: in funny directions and you're not as skeptical. And I 115 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: have seen really clever people being scammed. Someone I know, 116 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: very smart fellow psychiatrist got scammed and was told, you know, 117 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: you're going to be in big trouble if you don't 118 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: go and get some money orders and take it to 119 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: the cashier over here at this best Bishop or something. 120 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: And it's all just a scam. So be very wary 121 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: of people who are trying to do you a great 122 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 2: favor who come out of the woodwork. Usually they're trying 123 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 2: to do themselves a great favor. So you know, I mean, 124 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: But there's endless examples in my book of different kinds 125 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 2: of things, and I've classified them are things you do 126 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 2: because you made the mistake, things you do because they 127 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,239 Speaker 2: were really bad luck. But in many of the examples 128 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 2: that give from our own life, I had a role 129 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 2: in those bad things happening. And you know, sometimes people 130 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 2: people can be very kind. I remember I was. I 131 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 2: was with a girlfriend in a car late at night 132 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 2: in a shady lane in Johannesburg, bad idea. I got 133 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: attacked and assaulted and I arrived in the hospital. You know, 134 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: they got me around, They transfused me, got me around. Yes, 135 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: I later I got hepatitis see from the transfusion. But 136 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 2: I survived that. And I had a wonderful Latin teacher 137 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 2: who came to visit me, and she said, you know, 138 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 2: how are you feeling? And I said, I'm feeling really stupid. 139 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: I shouldn't have been there with a girlfriend late at 140 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 2: night in a shady lad And she was so sweet. 141 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: She said, ah, but that is life. She was Italian 142 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 2: ship with a thick Italian accent. Oh, that is what 143 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: life is all about, is being in a car with 144 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: your girlfriend late at night. And Lee's later. I went 145 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 2: to Naples and I was walking with my friend through 146 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 2: a dark street and there were all these cars lined 147 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: up with newspapers stuck against the windows. They were all 148 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 2: so she knew what she was talking about. It made 149 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: me feel a lot better. 150 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: So how much in benefiting from adversity. And what springs 151 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 1: to mind as you were talking about this stuff is 152 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: Victor Frankel and man search for meaning and particularly when 153 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: we get into severe adversity, finding meaning in that and 154 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: how much does this play a role. 155 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 2: Well, I'm so glad you mentioned him because in Gift 156 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: of Avarsity under my section on my heroes, he's one 157 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 2: of them. And I actually had the good fortune to 158 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 2: meet him, Oh wow in Vienna. Yeah, he was in 159 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 2: his nineties at the time, and I met him at 160 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: his summer house in Vienna, and he was unable to 161 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 2: see at that time, but he was ramrod straight in 162 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 2: his posture, and he talked about his huge adversity was 163 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: that he was the head of a neurology ward in 164 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: Vienna when the Nazis invaded, and he was in such 165 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 2: a prestigious position that he didn't believe he could be 166 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 2: captured in the net of the Nazis, but he was, 167 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 2: and he landed up in Auschwitz. And of course Man's 168 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 2: Search for Meaning, that first part where he talks about 169 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 2: how he survived was really a remarkable book, one of 170 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: the great books of the century. And he told me 171 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: all about it, and it was really, it was really 172 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: fascinating to listen to him and hear what he had 173 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 2: to say. And one of the interesting things to me 174 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: was how he differed from Sigmund Freud, whom he had 175 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: met because they were both in Vienna at the same time. 176 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 2: Freud was much his senior, and he was a great believer. 177 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 2: He was a neurologist. So he said, if something is 178 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 2: hurting you or bothering you, shift your mind to something else. 179 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: Don't kind of dwell on that thing that's worrying you, 180 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 2: because it will only make you feel worse. So I 181 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 2: was just thinking of him and thinking of that. You know, 182 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 2: I'm fretting about the forthcoming election here in the United States, 183 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 2: and I said, well, you know that's something I can't control. 184 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: There's your Epictetus coming back again. Yes, you're fond of 185 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: the Stoics. Yes, so Epictetus comes back again. And he 186 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 2: really was the original inventor, if you want to call 187 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 2: it that, of what became the Ceenity prayer. Yes, like, 188 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: you've got to decide whether this is something you can 189 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: control or something you cannot control, and then decide if 190 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 2: you can't control it, then just accept it, and if 191 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 2: you can, then do something about it. Well, the election, 192 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 2: other than my one miserable little vote, is nothing that 193 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: I can control. So here we are talking about life, 194 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 2: talking about important things. Maybe somebody will hear and that'll 195 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: make a difference. 196 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, so that dwelling. And by the way, I'm 197 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: very jealous that you met Victor Frankel. I read his 198 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 1: book as a seventeen year old and I got to 199 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: say it has had a profound impact on my life. 200 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: But you were talking there about Frankel talking about dwelling, 201 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: and so let's bring that into the whole mental health field. 202 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: So I'd love to get your opinion on you as 203 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: a psychiatrist with people, particularly when we think about depression 204 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: or mental health issues and room in the issue and 205 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: thinking and being asked constantly about their mental health and 206 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: thinking about their mental health, does there become a risk 207 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: that there can be too much talk without action associated 208 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: with it. 209 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: Well, yes, of course there can be. And I think 210 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: a bad therapist would let somebody talk and talk and 211 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: talk and talk without saying, well, you know you've complained 212 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: about it, but what are you going to do about it? 213 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: You know, that would be just an obvious thing to say. 214 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 2: Is there or is there anything you can do about 215 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: it that would make the matter better? No, I did this, 216 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 2: I did that, I did The other said, well, how 217 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: long did you persevere with that? Sometimes these things don't 218 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: happen that quickly, you know, you know, so, so I 219 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 2: would combine talking and action. But talking alone, of course, 220 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 2: is often not the best strategy. We want to talk, 221 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: we want to act, We want to feel. What are 222 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: you thinking, what are you feeling, what are you doing? 223 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: These are all crucial functions of the human mind, and 224 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: you want to kind of blend them together like a 225 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 2: symphony and get somebody feeling what they're feeling, thinking what 226 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 2: they're thinking, and then deciding what they want to do 227 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 2: about it. Yeah. 228 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: I think that's the key thing is is taking action 229 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: despite your circumstances. 230 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 2: But too much action, too quickly is not always good. 231 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's going to be considered action. Right, So let's 232 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: let's talk about seasonal effective disorder. So tell us just 233 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: give us a little bit of history about you. You know, 234 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: you said you joined the National Institute of Health. Was 235 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: that specifically, that was the role that you were doing 236 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: was around seasonal effective disorder and how. 237 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: Into it hadn't existed when I joined the National Instrumental Health. 238 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 2: Nobody had defined it, nobody had recognized it. There were 239 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: a few case reports in the literature, but in terms 240 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 2: of bringing a group of people together and saying these 241 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 2: are the characteristics that you need to look for, it 242 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 2: was not on the charts at all, and it had 243 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 2: not been described, it had not been defined, their name 244 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: didn't exist, etc. But I was see when I was 245 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 2: sixteen years old, I wanted to be a psychiatric researcher. 246 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: I wanted to probe the mysteries of the mind. So 247 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 2: the first thing is, well, where am I going to 248 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: be able to do that? And I thought, well, America 249 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 2: seems to have the most research money available, and they 250 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 2: seem to be the place to be. And I went 251 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: to Columbia, which is a terrific university. But I was told, 252 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: if you really wanted tremendous training in psychiatry, you go 253 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: to the National Instrumental Health, and that's where I headed. 254 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 2: My family was good enough to accompany me or back 255 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: me in that decision to move from New York, where 256 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 2: we were rather happy, and so I joined a group 257 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: of really innovative psychiatrists who were dealing with rhythms. They 258 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 2: were dealing with circadian rhythms daily woods, and the idea 259 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: of seasonal rhythms being of any consequence was not on 260 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 2: the map. And then one of them had found that 261 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 2: bright light suppressed the hormone melatonin, which is secreted at night. 262 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: It was never previously known that it did that in humans. 263 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 2: They knew it did that in animals, but now it 264 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 2: was shown that if you made the light bright enough, 265 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: it would do that in humans as well. So I 266 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: had come from South Africa, which was very sunny, to 267 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 2: New York City, which after daylight savings time suddenly very 268 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 2: very dark, very very early, and I felt my mood declining, 269 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 2: and then back it came in the spring again, and 270 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 2: I observed that in myself for three cycles. So when 271 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 2: I came to the NIH, I encountered a patient who 272 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 2: had that much worse than me, and we gave him 273 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 2: bright light in the middle of the winter, and he 274 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 2: came out of his depression. And so I said, look, 275 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 2: we can't study this unless I collect a group of 276 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 2: these people. I thought, you know, the Washington area has 277 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 2: got a lot of people here. Maybe I can find 278 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 2: a handful of people and I can do some systematic 279 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 2: studies so with the help of a friendly Washington Post journalist, 280 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 2: we put an article in that profiled one or two 281 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 2: people who had felt this kind of problem, and I thought, well, 282 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 2: we'll get a couple responses. We got thousands of responses 283 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: across the country. Everybody said the same kind of thing. 284 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: You know, when the days get short and dark, I 285 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 2: slow down, I don't think as well, I'm not as enthusiastic. 286 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 2: I become a little depressed. I eat more, especially sweets 287 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 2: and starches. I ain't wait. I'm sluggish. I fall behind 288 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: in my payments, I four behind in my relationships every year. 289 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 2: And it was clear to me I had a syndrome there. 290 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,479 Speaker 2: So we collected a group of people in the summer 291 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 2: and we who had this history and watched them through 292 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 2: into the winter, and they were just cheerful as can 293 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 2: be in the middle of the summer. And one of 294 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: my colleagues said, what will happen if they don't get depressed, 295 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 2: won't you feel kind of stupid? I said, you know, 296 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think they're going to get depressed. 297 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 2: And you know, if I feel stupid, it's not the 298 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 2: worst thing that can happen for somebody to feel stupid, 299 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: much worse things can happen, And sure enough, one by 300 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 2: one they became depressed, and we put them in a 301 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 2: light study comparing brightlight with dim light, and the bright 302 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 2: light was better than the dim light. That was the 303 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: first article forty years ago that was published and the 304 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 2: first description of said and the first you know, demonstration 305 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 2: that brightlight could bring people out of their depression. And 306 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 2: then I worked on that for twenty years. 307 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: I tell you what, as somebody who's not doing a 308 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 1: PhD and doing research, I am both excited and jealous 309 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: in equal measure that you actually discovered something pretty new 310 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: and that was affecting so many people. When did you 311 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: know in your gut that you were onto something. Was 312 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: it kind of straightaway because you'd felt it and then 313 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: you'd started to see it in people. Were you kind 314 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: of like, there's something here, I'm sure of it? 315 00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 2: First of all, just to say I was very, very lucky, 316 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 2: because it's hard to discover something new in this age 317 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 2: when there's millions of people working on problems. But in 318 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 2: our first study, we used ceiling fixtures that we brought 319 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 2: horizontal onto the desk. So I took one of these 320 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 2: ceiling fixtures and I put it in the bedroom standing up, 321 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 2: I can still see this huge thing, and put it 322 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 2: on a timer to come on at seven o'clock in 323 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 2: the morning. And wow, I felt it myself. I felt 324 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: so energized and so activated. That's why I could say 325 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: to these people who questioned it, they're going to get 326 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 2: depressed and the light's going to work. So and then, 327 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 2: you know, I could see it right. I could see 328 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 2: it right at the very first few subjects, because it 329 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 2: was a blind study in that the people rating these 330 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: patients they did not know if they were on a 331 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 2: bright light or a dim light control. And I remember 332 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 2: one of my colleagues who was the blind writer, saying, 333 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,719 Speaker 2: Missus Smith, I'm just making up the name. Missus Smith 334 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 2: came in today. I don't know what she's on, but 335 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: she's blossoming like a rose. Wow, that's so cool, you know. 336 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 2: And so I write at the very beginning, I wanted 337 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 2: to seguay a little. There's another book of mine called 338 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 2: Poetry RX. And in that poem. In that book there 339 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 2: is a poem by Keats much Have I Traveled in 340 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 2: the Realms of Gold? And in the end it talks 341 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 2: about In the end, it talks about the thrill of discovery, 342 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 2: the thrill of discovery, and the thrill of discovery, and 343 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 2: the end is let me read right at the end 344 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 2: of the of the book, he talks about all these 345 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 2: people who discovered things and then felt, I like some 346 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 2: watcher of the skies when a new planet swims into 347 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 2: his can or like start Cortez, when with eagle eyes 348 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 2: he stared at the Pacific and all his men looked 349 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 2: at each other with a wild surmise, silent upon a 350 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:35,360 Speaker 2: peak in Darienne. So in the book which I take, 351 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 2: I take the poems and I extract psychiatric or life 352 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: lessons out of them. I said, look, when this woman 353 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: became so transformed by the bright light therapy, I said, 354 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: you know, everybody was staring at each other, maybe not 355 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 2: with wild surmise, but at least with a lot of 356 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 2: excitement that something really special, what's going on here? 357 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: That is very very cool indeed, and I love that. 358 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 1: But that that poem where it brings in the explorers 359 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: as well, because when I was young, I was traveling 360 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: all around the world and went to and this is 361 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: like angle wat and was like, how amazing would it 362 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: be but to explore and find these places and then 363 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: realize the only way to do that sort of stuff 364 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: today is through science. Right, it's the same discovery process. 365 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, you know, I love that you 366 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 2: focus on the explorer because I've always been an explorer 367 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 2: and my explorations have really paid off. Well. Now, I 368 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: don't say explore by going into a shady lane at 369 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: night in a dangerous town. That's the wrong kind of exploration. 370 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 2: The right kind of exploration is to well for me, 371 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 2: it's the exploration of the mind. So I've done it 372 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 2: with the light, I've done it with poetry. I've also 373 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 2: done it and with adversity. So there are all these things. 374 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 2: But one big way of exploring has been with meditation. 375 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:21,959 Speaker 2: I have a longstanding practitioner of transcendental meditation, and I've 376 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: written two books on that subject, Transcendence and Supermind. And 377 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: what that is. It's an exploration of how consciousness can 378 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 2: evolve under the influence of a certain Eastern practice, and 379 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 2: so exploration. If you want one word, is my it's 380 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 2: my theme song. Yes, it's my brand. 381 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: And tell me that's not just to get your professional 382 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: opinion on this, and and probably opinion rather than evidence based, 383 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: but because I've been thinking about this, Like, curiosity I 384 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: think is a hugely important trait for good mental health. 385 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it's linked to the psychological trait of hardiness 386 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: and the commitment orientation of people being highly engaged in life. 387 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: And I've just sort of observed that that people who 388 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: tend to be curious and engaged in things seem to 389 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: have a better overall life and they're just they're they're 390 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: kind of got more energy about life. Is this something 391 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: that you have noticed at all about this sort of 392 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: curiosity and being engaged in life being important for good 393 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: mental health and overcoming adversity. It's just a little hunch 394 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 1: that I have. 395 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 2: Well, I think curiosity is a very valuable trait. Let's 396 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 2: put it that way, because you know, to ask what's 397 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 2: going on here? Why is this causing that? Whether you're 398 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: trying to troubleshoot your cell phone or your computer, or 399 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 2: whether you want to know why the door jams shut 400 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 2: every time you try it? You know, whether it's very 401 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 2: simple things of everyday life, or whether it's a complicated 402 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 2: thing like I've got this little piece of DNA, how 403 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 2: can I sort of make a big batch of it? 404 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 2: And then you get polymerase chain reaction, you get that 405 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 2: guy coming out or somebody looking at I remember reading 406 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 2: an article they asked great school kids to take household 407 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 2: objects and try and turn them into inventions. And one 408 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 2: little girl, maybe it'd been five, she took a wire 409 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: hanger and she said, we turn it upside down and 410 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 2: then you can hang your rubber bands on that. But 411 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 2: he said, well, how did you come up with that idea? 412 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 2: And she said, I think'd it up in my head. 413 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 2: So you know, it can be at a very elemental level, 414 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 2: or it can be at a very profound level, but 415 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 2: I think and it can be cultivated. You can cultivate 416 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: people to question. And I I wore my mother out 417 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 2: with my curiosity. She was not pleased about it. And 418 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 2: you know she was not pleased about it. My endless 419 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 2: questions is stop already, I'm exhausted. So but yeah, I look, 420 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 2: I just. 421 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: Think it's it's such an important trait. But let's get 422 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: back to seasonal effective disorder. Sorry for the rabbit holes, 423 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: but so let's talk about You mentioned a couple of 424 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: the symptoms, but what are the sort of typical symptoms 425 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: that people should be looking out for? 426 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 2: All right, So the first thing that I must say 427 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 2: or else my publisher is going to kill me. Is 428 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 2: I just published recently a book called Defeating Sad, where 429 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 2: I try and present in one place everything that you 430 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 2: need to do to do your best week. That's it there, 431 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 2: everything you need to do to overcome sad. But let 432 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: me give you the cliff notes here. Firstly, as we talked, 433 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: bright light is an important element in that process, and 434 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 2: you know how to give it. Morning is a good time. 435 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 2: How to time it. You can add to the evening, 436 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: like right now, we've had daylight savings time change, so 437 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 2: you're getting an extra hour of darkness in the evening, 438 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 2: So that's when you need to replace more light. But 439 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 2: the morning is no good to you unless you get 440 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 2: out into the sunlight, which is earlier maybe than you 441 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 2: used to. So you've got to go out earlier. You've 442 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 2: got to add a little bit on if you've got 443 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 2: these symptoms, what are the symptoms? I told you, I'll 444 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,479 Speaker 2: tell you again. Symptoms have sad And this is the 445 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 2: winter variety, because there's a summer variety as well. When 446 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 2: the days get short and dark, low energy, increased appetite, 447 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 2: especially for sweets and starches, weight gain, withdrawal from friends, 448 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 2: and family, lowering of mood, increased sleep. Those are the 449 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 2: key elements of the syndrome. And then you can use light. 450 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 2: Starting early now would be a good time, and you 451 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 2: can use the light, and you can also get exercise, 452 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 2: which is terrific. You can combine exercise with light by 453 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 2: going and walking outdoors and not putting your bar bushka 454 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 2: over your head so that you don't get any light 455 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: in or your sombrero or anything cuts up all the light. 456 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,239 Speaker 2: You want to get to see people around with these 457 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 2: dark glasses on winter days, and I wonder whether that's 458 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 2: a good idea. So exercise light, dietary control, and then 459 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 2: keep active, keep engaged, you know, go opposite to what 460 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 2: you feel like doing. If you feel like lying in 461 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 2: bed with the covers over your head, put take off 462 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 2: the covers and get out of bed, get out of doors. 463 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 2: You feel like sitting on the couch and eating a 464 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 2: couple of twinkies, don't get off the couch. Go outside, 465 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 2: eat salads and try and have fun, Try and stay 466 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 2: engaged with friends and family. Your efforts will be rewarded. 467 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: Now you did mention there are a winter version and 468 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: a summer version, which I'm obviously not familiar where talk 469 00:31:59,760 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: to me. 470 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 2: But the summer version, Well, when we originally asked for 471 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 2: these winter people who have trouble in the winter, maybe 472 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 2: fifteen percent of our responses said, you know, I've got 473 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 2: exactly the opposite problem. I go down in the summer. 474 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: It turns out that a significant number of people, albeit 475 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 2: is not as common as the winter type, at least 476 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 2: at this latitude, that they have trouble in the summer. 477 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 2: And so we have studied that, and there's a different 478 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 2: pattern there. They eat less, they don't eat more, they 479 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 2: sleep less, they get agitated, they don't get lethargic, and 480 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 2: they're more vulnerable to suicide. Oh wow, that's the summer version. 481 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 2: And that's, as they say these days, it become a 482 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 2: thing in its own right, an entity. 483 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: And is that due to too much light? 484 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 2: Eat? Probably the heat, but the lights you can do 485 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: it as well. The heat causes people to be lethargic. 486 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 2: The causes people to be agitated. So you've got this 487 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 2: kind of mixed picture of somebody who's restless and irritable 488 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 2: but not able to get much done. And it's very undiscomforting, 489 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 2: very unpleasant. 490 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: And I take it that the two don't go together like, Wow. 491 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 2: Yes, some people have both, but oftentimes one has just 492 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 2: one or the other. Wow. 493 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: Well, the people who have the summer one should just 494 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: go and move to Northern Ireland and not but sort 495 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: it all out, because there's not much like there in summer. 496 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 2: I remember reading something by your playwright sing that that, 497 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 2: you know, the misery of those misty, foggy, dark Irish 498 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 2: days is enough to drive a person nuts. 499 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: You know, that's right, that's only in summer normal. 500 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 3: The susceptibility is the variant of the clock genes involved 501 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 3: in this, and you know who is more susceptible to 502 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 3: the others? 503 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: Is it all genetics? Are? Is there any difference in races? 504 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 2: Well, there certainly seems to be a genetic component because 505 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 2: it runs in families women much more than men. And 506 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 2: it seems to be happening to women in the reproductive years. 507 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 2: That's when it happens, which suggests that it's a hormonal 508 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 2: effect that's playing a part. So there's a genetic effect, 509 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: there's a hormonal effect, there's an environmental effect. So in 510 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 2: other words, I've seen maybe a woman who's a nurse 511 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 2: and she has said and she's got to get up 512 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 2: and get into the hospital to do her work, and 513 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 2: every winter she struggles and then she retires and is 514 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 2: able to sleep in in the morning and it doesn't 515 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: have the same level of demands on her and that 516 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 2: can be helpful. So it's an interaction between the season, 517 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 2: the light, the season and the light, the genetic loading, 518 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 2: and gender is a biological loading, and the stress stress 519 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 2: is a very big factor. Now. Yeah, so when you 520 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,439 Speaker 2: say which genes, We've looked at various genes. We looked 521 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 2: at one gene that affects the molecule that zerrato that well, 522 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 2: that zoloft acts on or prozac acts on this molecule 523 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,280 Speaker 2: in the brain, and we found that people with SAD 524 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 2: seem to have a different variant, seemed more or less 525 00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 2: of a variant than regular controls. Nobody replicates of that, 526 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 2: and so it is that many genes have been studied, 527 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 2: none has been replicated, So we can't say any gene 528 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 2: is predisposing, although obviously genes must be involved. 529 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's a complex mix, isn't it. And And 530 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: does do you know the whole idea of alt and 531 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: larks of early morning and late at night people that 532 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: does that play a role at. 533 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 2: All really great question. I don't think we've really made 534 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 2: a clear connection there, Okay, but I think if I 535 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 2: would guess, I would say that owls would be more 536 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 2: susceptible simply because they're exposed to more hours of dark 537 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 2: because they they are sleeping through the morning light. Yes, 538 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: and so they're up when there's not a lot of 539 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 2: light around. So that could be my guess. But it's 540 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 2: actually a beautiful question, and it's very studiable. You know, 541 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 2: which researcher always say is, yeah, it's a great question, 542 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 2: but how would you study it? This one would be 543 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 2: easy enough. I don't know any study that has looked 544 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 2: at the outlock questionnaire which exists in sad patients versus controls. 545 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 2: You'd make a good scientist. 546 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's going to say there's a there's a topic 547 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: for a master student out there. 548 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 2: In psychofinitely, definitely yes. 549 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 1: And now, so let's I'm really interested in your alternative 550 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: ways of helping people with their emotional difficulty. So you've 551 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: written a book about about poetry to help people, and 552 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of reading philosophy for helping people 553 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: around it. So, so tell us some of the things, 554 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 1: some of the different approaches that you have for helping 555 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: people with their emotional issues. 556 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 2: Well, I'm also a great believer in the whatever works school. 557 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 2: So you know, if somebody says, you know, I'm absolutely 558 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 2: tone deaf. I have no interest in poetry. I won't 559 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 2: even try, you know, because I don't want to. I 560 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 2: want to pursue a promising angle. But you know, if 561 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 2: somebody always loved poetry and I say, oh, really, well 562 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:32,280 Speaker 2: let's talk, let's talk about something, you know, the idea 563 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 2: that poetry can help. I know, it's helped me personally. 564 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 2: It's helped me personally. There's one of my poems in here. 565 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 2: It's a very obscure poem. It is called Letter to 566 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 2: My Mother. It's by a man named Salvador Quasimodo. He 567 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 2: got the Nobel Prize for literature that year. So you know, 568 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 2: look on these works. He mighty and despair. You know, 569 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,839 Speaker 2: here's a Nobel Prize winner. Nobody's heard of him. 570 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: Wow. 571 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 2: So you know, and this is a man who's writing. 572 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 2: He is Northern Italy. He's gone to the north for 573 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 2: his probably professional reasons, and he's writing about his poor 574 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 2: mother who was left behind in Sicily. And now she's 575 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 2: getting old and she's not going to be around for 576 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 2: much longer. And it's a plentive verse. And before I 577 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 2: left South Africa, I would read this poem again and 578 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 2: again and I never quite realized at the time, but 579 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 2: it was because I was leaving my family, my mother, 580 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 2: my father, and yes I would see them hopefully, but 581 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,280 Speaker 2: it would be sporadic and not like in the daily 582 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 2: way that I was used to. But the poem is 583 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 2: somehow the fact that this person had shared this experience 584 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 2: and now felt so sad at the loss of that 585 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 2: was very meaningful to me. And so it is. All 586 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 2: of these poems are chosen for a reason. That is 587 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,319 Speaker 2: why they can really help you, and they have. I've 588 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 2: used them myself with my patients. So there's the light therapy, 589 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 2: there's the poetry, there's the meditation. I've always been you know, 590 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,240 Speaker 2: if I'm a person that I'm looking at a picture 591 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 2: in an art gallery, I always look what's at the 592 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 2: corner of the picture. What did the painter want to conceal? 593 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 2: This is what he wanted to show, but what was 594 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,320 Speaker 2: there in the background. And so I guess that my 595 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,760 Speaker 2: focus has often been the things that other people haven't 596 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 2: really gone for because I always thought that was where 597 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,479 Speaker 2: you would get the pay dirt. You know, yes, that's 598 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 2: what's happening. 599 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: So tell me where are you spanding? Whereas an explorer 600 00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: like you, spanning as professional time these days is particularly 601 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,760 Speaker 1: with the benefit of all of those years of research 602 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: and study. What's interesting you now? 603 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 2: Well, I love my work as a psychiatrist and coach. 604 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 2: I love to try and help people be the best 605 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 2: that they can be and use all my own skills 606 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,399 Speaker 2: of innovation and exploration and curiosity to put them at 607 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 2: the disposal of other people who can then take them 608 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:37,240 Speaker 2: and use them in their lives. So that's my clinical work. 609 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 2: You know. I've studied many forms of different therapy, and 610 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,359 Speaker 2: I don't feel wedded to anyone. It's just whatever. I've 611 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 2: got this big box of tricks. Well it calls psychoanalytics 612 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 2: psychotherapy a trick I guess somebody would be offended, or 613 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 2: cognitive behavior therapy or whatever kind of therapy works family, 614 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 2: you know, getting people to talk to each other. And 615 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:13,719 Speaker 2: I often reference there's a poem by Rumi, the wonderful 616 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:26,760 Speaker 2: Persian poet that let me read it to you. It's 617 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 2: it's maybe I've got two people, husband and wife, maybe 618 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 2: they're fighting with each other. You're wrong, I'm right, you're wrong. 619 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 2: Everybody is fighting, but who's right who's wrong? They turned 620 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 2: to me like I'm a judge in a courtroom. Listen 621 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:48,479 Speaker 2: to this, and I say, here's what Rumy has to say. 622 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 2: Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is 623 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 2: a field. I'll meet you there when the soul lies 624 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 2: down in that grass. The world is too full to 625 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 2: talk about ideas, language, even the phrase each other doesn't 626 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 2: make any sense. And then they look at me and 627 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 2: they say, what's that got to do with our situation? 628 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 2: But I've broken the set of the two of them. 629 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 2: I said, well, let's think about it. Here. Here are 630 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 2: these two people. Maybe and he's saying to one saying 631 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 2: to the other, you know, regardless of who's right and 632 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 2: who's wrong, let's find a field where we can lie down, 633 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,400 Speaker 2: we can look up at the sky. We're in the 634 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 2: long grass, and then we get back in touch with 635 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,880 Speaker 2: what drew us to each other in the first place. 636 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 2: Once upon a time we loved each other. And look 637 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,439 Speaker 2: at all the squabbling that's come in the way. Can 638 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,359 Speaker 2: we find a little bit of that again? That's what 639 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 2: the poem is saying, So the poem becomes a vehicle 640 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 2: to distract. I don't do it all the time, you know, 641 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 2: It's just one in a bag of tricks, the light, 642 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 2: the therapy, the cognitive behavior therapy, the analytic therapy, etcetera. 643 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,280 Speaker 2: So that's the one thing I'm doing is I'm still 644 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 2: excited about helping people because I see them change, I 645 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 2: see them grow. You know, my own son is grown 646 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 2: and he's a psychiatrist himself. So we've done our job 647 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 2: by by him. We're working on our grandchildren now, of course. 648 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 2: But that's the one thing. The other thing is in 649 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 2: the TM world, I've done I've done Transcendence, I've done Supermind. 650 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 2: I've got a third book that I'm working on in 651 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:42,319 Speaker 2: that trilogy. Right now. 652 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: I knew there was going to be another book. That 653 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: was what I was going to ask you. 654 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 2: The third book in the trilogy, And it's what happens 655 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 2: when you expand as a human being and you become 656 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,800 Speaker 2: more connected with everybody. You know, right now we're talking, 657 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,799 Speaker 2: I feel really connected with you. Now. We may never 658 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 2: talk again, but this particular connection has a value regardless 659 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 2: of where it ends up going. And so it is 660 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:17,280 Speaker 2: if I meet somebody. If I friendships, acquaintances you feel, 661 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 2: and even people you know and love, you can expand 662 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,800 Speaker 2: that until you feel like you're very full and you've 663 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,360 Speaker 2: sort of expanded into a connection. Because we're all going 664 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 2: to go, that's right, that's right, We're all going to go. 665 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 2: But while we're here, let us experience the fullness of 666 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:43,279 Speaker 2: connection with others, connection with the universe, connection with everything 667 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 2: that can bring good to ourselves, to other people as well. 668 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: That is a brilliant quote for ending the podcast. So 669 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,839 Speaker 1: where can people find out more about you and your 670 00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 1: numerous books on transcendental meditation on side on poetry. Where 671 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:02,839 Speaker 1: can they go to find out more about your work 672 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:03,360 Speaker 1: in general? 673 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple ways. I mean, firstly, I feel free 674 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 2: to go to my website Norman Rosenthal dot com, and 675 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 2: of course I have a page on Amazon which will 676 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 2: list all my books and how easily to obtain it. 677 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 2: Most of them are available on audible as well as unaudible, 678 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,319 Speaker 2: as well as in printed form or on kindle, So 679 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 2: whichever method works for anybody, there there are this availability 680 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 2: for that. So that's how they can find out more 681 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 2: and allow me to say that it's been really a 682 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 2: great pleasure to speak with you. 683 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: I have thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, Norman, and it's been 684 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:52,839 Speaker 1: great to chat to an explorer who has done some 685 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,839 Speaker 1: great stuff and touched many people, and actually will continue 686 00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,640 Speaker 1: to touch many people when you have left this earth 687 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: through your books, which is quite cool, eh. 688 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,840 Speaker 2: Thank you, my friend. You take care, congratulations on your podcast, 689 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 2: and continue to thrive. 690 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:10,879 Speaker 1: Thanks Lor