Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's the Youth Project, it's doctor
Speaker 1: or should I say professor jess you'll come up or
Speaker 1: Jessica I should have found that out. I'm going to
Speaker 1: go with and Professor Tiff is here. How are you
Speaker 1: very good?
Speaker 2: Thank you? Craig Harper, how are you?
Speaker 1: Oh look, I'm just bursting out of my bloody flannel
Speaker 1: shirt and I'm in a black T shirt because it's
Speaker 1: so warm in the thriving metropolis Ofthampton. If you were
Speaker 1: an academic, you were a professor of something, would it
Speaker 1: be punchology? Would it be punching people in the face?
Speaker 1: Would it be pugilism? What would you have a PhD?
Speaker 1: And if you were heading down that route.
Speaker 2: I am not sure. You know what's funny you say
Speaker 2: that I just did a stupid post on my Instagram
Speaker 2: on my Facebook noting that I've just become aware how
Speaker 2: often I drop my phone and I wondered what my
Speaker 2: baseline was with reflexes prior to over a decade of
Speaker 2: training in a sport where handie coordination and dexterity and
Speaker 2: reflexes was at the really heard of what you're training.
Speaker 1: Do you know what's funny about you is like you're
Speaker 1: out and about and you're a bit of a tomboy.
Speaker 1: We know that. And by a bit, I mean a lot,
Speaker 1: and by a lot I mean mostly. But you know that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you are not what people think when we go,
Speaker 1: I'm bringing one of my friends or tiff showing up
Speaker 1: to do that. She's forty, she's a lady. By lady,
Speaker 1: I mean she'll punch you in the face nine times
Speaker 1: before you know what's going on. So there's that. It's
Speaker 1: you know, Professor Jessica might have her way with you.
Speaker 1: She could probably armbar you real naked, choke you, submit you.
Speaker 1: I mean she role plays an academic, but she's probably
Speaker 1: extremely capable in a one on one scenario, Am I right?
Speaker 1: Prof Well, no.
Speaker 3: I'm feeling really intimidated by Tiffany right now because I have.
Speaker 4: A terrible hand eye coordination.
Speaker 3: I played pickleball for the first time yesterday and was
Speaker 3: pretty abysmal, though I had fun being on a giant
Speaker 3: tennis table situation. But at the end my husband said, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, you're all right. All you have to
Speaker 3: do is work on your hand eye coordination. And I
Speaker 3: think if it's if I'm this old and it hasn't happened.
Speaker 3: That's never happening. But I also am not really ready
Speaker 3: to for a hand to hand combat, so hopefully that's
Speaker 3: not part of the brief on this podcast.
Speaker 1: No, no, I think I think you'll be all right. Okay,
Speaker 1: last one for you, Tive before we have the proper
Speaker 1: with the grown up in the room.
Speaker 4: Definitely, it's not one I didn't think.
Speaker 1: So if you had had to head down a field
Speaker 1: of research, I know you don't want don't want to,
Speaker 1: but if you had to, would it be psych would
Speaker 1: it be or would it be something else?
Speaker 2: Ah, excellent question. It would be something around human behavior
Speaker 2: and psychology, I believe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, endlessly fascinating specimens.
Speaker 4: It's hard to resist.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, you've got so much work with I mean
Speaker 1: there's us two for.
Speaker 4: As strat that'll give me busy for years.
Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of issues, have you seen the profs bio?
Speaker 1: So now, Jessica, do I call you jess or Jessica
Speaker 1: fine es? Ye? Well, give you up, Thank you and welcome.
Speaker 1: Sorry about that prelude, but that's how we roll. How
Speaker 1: are you?
Speaker 3: I am doing it? Okay, thank you. I'm excited to
Speaker 3: chat with you this morning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, are we beating the business meeting or the workman?
Speaker 3: If we had some sort of offacially empty measuring smiles,
Speaker 3: you'd already be ahead of the curve based on a
Speaker 3: very grim staff meeting.
Speaker 4: So yes, all good.
Speaker 1: Don't we all get excited about a good staff meeting.
Speaker 1: Aren't you lucky? We don't have those two?
Speaker 2: Sure, and they would be a whirlwind Wooden.
Speaker 1: Although do you do get a bit scared when I
Speaker 1: say I want to catch up with you and I
Speaker 1: just want to catch up with you. You're like, what
Speaker 1: what about? I'm like, yeah, it's okay, don't worry.
Speaker 2: You can't say that as.
Speaker 1: You sleep that night. Hey, doc jess all of it.
Speaker 1: Could you just tell rather than me read something that
Speaker 1: will do your head in? Could you just tell my
Speaker 1: audience who you are and what you do and what
Speaker 1: you're about. Please? Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I'm a professor of psychology and I'm at UNSW in Sydney,
Speaker 3: and my primary research passions that my students and I
Speaker 3: do some experimental and clinical research are in the area
Speaker 3: of obsessive compulsive disorder OCD and hoarding disorder and anxiety
Speaker 3: disorders more broadly, so we do research and I also
Speaker 3: do some teaching and training as part of my role
Speaker 3: at UNSW.
Speaker 1: Perfect what's the question that you never get asked on
Speaker 1: an interview or a podcast or TV or radio that
Speaker 1: you thought I'd wish Because I feel like people that
Speaker 1: I interview that are interviewed a lot, and we're other
Speaker 1: two thousand interviews in write or podcast in so I
Speaker 1: try not to be too boring and predictable and reparitive.
Speaker 1: Appreciate a question that you think I wish someone would
Speaker 1: ask me this because this is a really interesting part
Speaker 1: of this area that people don't think about or don't understand.
Speaker 1: What might that question be?
Speaker 3: All right, Oh, this might not be exactly what you're after,
Speaker 3: This might be a little bit of a turn, but
Speaker 3: this is what I was thinking about this morning on
Speaker 3: my dog walk, so you can get a little a
Speaker 3: window into that. I like when people in podcasts, when
Speaker 3: when I'm reading any kind of biography, or when they
Speaker 3: talk about anything they've changed their mind on or something
Speaker 3: they've evolved or have a difference of opinion, because we
Speaker 3: all get very stuck in particular viewpoints and become, as
Speaker 3: you said, quite predictable.
Speaker 4: So I was thinking on the dog walk.
Speaker 3: This morning how a lot of the work I've done
Speaker 3: has been in in psychology, and my training with a
Speaker 3: lot of the greats of this century in terms of
Speaker 3: people that I've had the good fortune of working with,
Speaker 3: has been in cognitive behavioral versions of psychotherapy, and like
Speaker 3: traditionally those versions of psychotherapy are very focused on the
Speaker 3: here and now, very focused on what are your patterns
Speaker 3: right now that are working for you aren't How can
Speaker 3: we look at how you're thinking and what you're doing,
Speaker 3: and how can we creatively shift those in a way
Speaker 3: that's going to work for you and you're going to
Speaker 3: be feel more fulfilled in your life or less symptoms
Speaker 3: of whatever you're feeling right And in part like that
Speaker 3: whole approach is a reaction to older models of psychology
Speaker 3: and psychotherapy, like Freudian approaches. And you can picture, you know,
Speaker 3: something you'd see on TV, someone lying on a couch
Speaker 3: and tell me about when you were a baby and
Speaker 3: how to do what was your toilet training?
Speaker 4: Like that kind of thing, And too much.
Speaker 3: Focus on the past, too much focused on the past
Speaker 3: and your parents and how you were raised, and not
Speaker 3: enough focused on what's happening for you today and how
Speaker 3: can we help you So I guess what's been interesting
Speaker 3: in the last couple of years I've been reflecting is
Speaker 3: that the way that we are evolving as a field
Speaker 3: in terms of CBT and the specific stuff that my
Speaker 3: students and I've been doing in my lab has involved
Speaker 3: kind of incorporating more of those stories and elements of
Speaker 3: your autobiographical past, and incorporating more of your early childhood
Speaker 3: and what happened to you, but still keeping the focus
Speaker 3: on how that's impacting you today. So I think that's
Speaker 3: been sort of interesting. And then, you know, research is mesearch.
Speaker 3: I've been thinking a little bit about, you know, my
Speaker 3: early childhood or my past, or even my family's past,
Speaker 3: and how that has impact in.
Speaker 4: The way I live in the world today.
Speaker 3: So I don't feel like we've totally gone back to
Speaker 3: the days of Freud and really blaming all our in
Speaker 3: neuroses on unconscious processes.
Speaker 4: And our parents. But I do think that there's become.
Speaker 3: Greater clinical wisdom in taking some time to appreciate and
Speaker 3: understand some of those childhood experiences and even revisiting them
Speaker 3: and approaches that we're doing right now, particularly imagery based approaches,
Speaker 3: and really immersing ourselves in some of those very formative
Speaker 3: experiences and how they still impact how we're living in
Speaker 3: the world today.
Speaker 1: Love it. I love research may search too, to what
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask a few philosophical ones that are
Speaker 1: very self indulgent, just because these are things I think
Speaker 1: about and I'm interested in, to what extent can we
Speaker 1: understand stand ourselves when obviously the Craig experience of Craig
Speaker 1: is subjective, not objective, And to what extent can I
Speaker 1: be aware knowing that the thing I'm trying to understand
Speaker 1: largely my mind is the tool that I'm using for analysis.
Speaker 1: It's a bit of a mind fuck, right, It's like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand me using me as the revealer
Speaker 1: of truth and insight. Yep.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I think that is the part of the
Speaker 3: potential magic of therapy is that it's not you sitting
Speaker 3: in a room by yourself analyzing yourself, which I think
Speaker 3: you would be very needs or gazing very leading to rumination.
Speaker 3: And we all reflect a little bit on ourselves, and
Speaker 3: I think some of that can be healthy. But I
Speaker 3: think part of the magic is when you have another
Speaker 3: person who you trust, who has training or even sometimes
Speaker 3: a good friend of social support that you are able
Speaker 3: to integrate what their perspective is and actually receive that feedback,
Speaker 3: actually listen to what they say instead of just waiting
Speaker 3: for your turn to talk about yourself. So I think
Speaker 3: in genuine good friendships, relationships, and in good therapy, that's
Speaker 3: the only window we have outside of our own as
Speaker 3: you said, Psyche, and the fact that we live in
Speaker 3: our own bodies, in our minds, and we're very much
Speaker 3: main character energy for ourselves. But if you are able
Speaker 3: to genuinely have these conversations with people, I think that's
Speaker 3: where the shifts happen.
Speaker 4: That's where you can.
Speaker 3: Start doing things, doing experiments, trying things differently, hearing different perspectives,
Speaker 3: and subtly changing maybe the way you think or the
Speaker 3: way you view the world, which is what it's all about,
Speaker 3: in my opinion, is not being completely stuck in one
Speaker 3: way forever.
Speaker 1: And I think also being comfortable with the idea that
Speaker 1: this is what I think, but it could be wrong. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is what I believe wrong, Yeah, because I've been
Speaker 1: wrong thousands of times, So why would I think that
Speaker 1: today will next week, month, year. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: be wrong at least hundreds of times because I am
Speaker 1: going today.
Speaker 3: And we call that cognitive flexibility, and it's one of
Speaker 3: the key ingredients to being able to have.
Speaker 4: Change, and sometimes people don't have it.
Speaker 3: Some of the people we work with, due to the
Speaker 3: nature of their disorder, whether it's severe OCD or severe
Speaker 3: boarding or severe delusion psychosis, they.
Speaker 4: Don't have that ability to.
Speaker 3: Reflect on their own thinking and go, I am not
Speaker 3: always one hundred percent right, So maybe I should just
Speaker 3: listen a little and think about another perspective and give
Speaker 3: it some chance to change. And then the question is
Speaker 3: what do you do with people who are so rigidly,
Speaker 3: absolutely sure that their reality, whether it's a delusion or
Speaker 3: they're sure they need to save all their bodily materials,
Speaker 3: or they're sure that they're sink in the public toilet
Speaker 3: is absolutely.
Speaker 4: Contaminated and going to kill them.
Speaker 3: What creative ways can you find into someone is reality
Speaker 3: is that rigid and that strong, to start to get
Speaker 3: them to challenge their thought processes, like you have a
Speaker 3: more healthy version of that. I recognize that I have
Speaker 3: been wrong and I might be wrong again, and let
Speaker 3: me listen to what other people have to.
Speaker 1: Say, yes, yes, And I guess the other part of
Speaker 1: that is really genuinely being open to that versus just
Speaker 1: nodding your head and going, all right, I'll go along
Speaker 1: and see Jess on bloody Tuesdays. But yeah, I'm only
Speaker 1: doing it because it's kind of mandated or I have to,
Speaker 1: or it keeps my family, you know, quiet, or I
Speaker 1: think there's like a level of courage involved in to
Speaker 1: open the door on that fear and that anxiety and
Speaker 1: that overthinking rumination whatever, and go what actually is that about?
Speaker 1: Like that's almost like the symptom, not the problem, Like
Speaker 1: what's driving that? What's underneath all of this behavior that
Speaker 1: is unhealthy for me? And I'm driving myself nuts. Probably
Speaker 1: I don't mean that literally but perhaps metaphor. But yeah,
Speaker 1: being brave enough to go I really want to understand
Speaker 1: me is a little bit terrifying, perhaps.
Speaker 3: So cterrifying, I think, gree It takes courage and openness,
Speaker 3: and also for the person who's trying to help you
Speaker 3: do that, it takes them not pushing you further into
Speaker 3: a box.
Speaker 4: And then we know that if I'm saying that's.
Speaker 3: Absolutely wrong or you need to think differently, or I'm right,
Speaker 3: you're just gonna get in a defensive crouch.
Speaker 4: And you know, maybe call Tiffany over to punch me.
Speaker 3: Like, it doesn't really work, It just makes people more So,
Speaker 3: how can you genuinely help someone in your life who
Speaker 3: feels that way, or a client and not push them
Speaker 3: further into a really strong version of the world. How
Speaker 3: can you be curious and open minded and support them
Speaker 3: enough to say, well, all right, maybe there's a small
Speaker 3: chance that this isn't true, and maybe I can start
Speaker 3: thinking a little bit differently.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my guy too, and I'm backed into a
Speaker 1: psychological corner. Or I just called tiff to bring a
Speaker 1: violent self over to the situation. I want to Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think. I think also, like when what we think
Speaker 1: and what we think is right in our beliefs and
Speaker 1: our ideas are intertwined with our identity. When you question
Speaker 1: my thoughts, my ideas, my reality, you're questioning who I am.
Speaker 1: You're questioning my identity and how dare you? So fuck you?
Speaker 1: And you know, there's there's that. It's like it's a
Speaker 1: very multi layered kind of thing to be able to
Speaker 1: go what if you know, Like I grew up in
Speaker 1: a religious house, right, so I had this whole very
Speaker 1: conditioned upbringing church school, connected to the church, parents, connected
Speaker 1: to both friends, family, so very churchy environment. So everything
Speaker 1: that I was taught in inverted commas, programmed, conditioned, you know,
Speaker 1: to believe. I never really questioned that because this was
Speaker 1: the truth that we lived in. You know, this is
Speaker 1: the truth. And then you don't know any other echo chamber,
Speaker 1: or you don't know any other version of the truth
Speaker 1: because you've never set foot in that world, so to speak,
Speaker 1: or you've never really lived there. And then one day
Speaker 1: you might go and whether or not it's with you know,
Speaker 1: barracking for an AFL club or religion, or being a
Speaker 1: vegan or you know, whatever, it is that ideology with
Speaker 1: which you are interconnected, and perhaps that represents you to go, Fuck,
Speaker 1: what if I've been wrong for thirty years?
Speaker 4: What if I was that moment for you? With your
Speaker 4: religious upbringing.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I went on a bit of a journey.
Speaker 1: So I was just raised in Catholicism, which is pretty boring,
Speaker 1: but it's also it's kind of shout out to my
Speaker 1: Catholic friends that I meant to I love you, but
Speaker 1: it's pretty arrogant. It's like where right, everyone else is wrong.
Speaker 1: But then a lot of churches and a lot of
Speaker 1: religions like that. And by the way, I don't believe
Speaker 1: whatever anyone else says, you know, da da da. And
Speaker 1: so I went to Basically it's a you know, it's
Speaker 1: a pretty boring assembly of people every Sunday at this time,
Speaker 1: and then you go to school, you know. So it
Speaker 1: wasn't particularly inspiring, but it was indoctrinating. And so I
Speaker 1: believed if I did this, if I died with a
Speaker 1: mortal sin on my soul, for example, I'm going to
Speaker 1: burn in an eternal lake and fire forever. And I'm
Speaker 1: fucking ten. I'm like, this is fucking terrifying. And this
Speaker 1: isn't a thought or an idea, this is an inverted
Speaker 1: comma's truth. And then I came out of that, and
Speaker 1: then I you know, I didn't go to church for
Speaker 1: a while, and then I met some people. Anyway, I
Speaker 1: ended up being all me because I was kind of
Speaker 1: god curious, like I didn't know what was what, if
Speaker 1: anything was what, right, But then I went down an
Speaker 1: evangelical Christian path, as you been from the States would
Speaker 1: have I'm sure been very aware of, right, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then that's a whole different world, and it's like, oh no,
Speaker 1: this is, this is amazing, this is and.
Speaker 4: Then I rude a joy in it and a lot
Speaker 4: of connection.
Speaker 1: It's very subdountable then, and so a lot of things
Speaker 1: that weren't in Catholicism were in where I was anyway.
Speaker 1: There was joy, there was connection, there was love, there
Speaker 1: was compassion, there was understanding, you know, but also there
Speaker 1: was very much indoctrination too, where hey, it's not okay
Speaker 1: you can't go see your parents in the country on
Speaker 1: Sunday because you need to be here. I'm like, but
Speaker 1: I'm the only kid and they're my only parents, and
Speaker 1: they're not super young, so I need to know, like,
Speaker 1: you need to be faithful, you need to be all
Speaker 1: this stuff. And then you're like, oh, So by the
Speaker 1: time I really really started to think, oh maybe some
Speaker 1: or all of this is bullshit, I was probably thirty Wow,
Speaker 1: you know, and then a sort.
Speaker 4: Of single moment or just overtime skepticism.
Speaker 1: I just saw, I feel like I'm being psychoanalyzed if
Speaker 1: and I couldn't I couldn't be happier, I couldn't be
Speaker 1: hang on, can I lie down? Yeah? So I mean,
Speaker 1: for me, there was just a lot of inconsistency between
Speaker 1: what got taught on the poolpit and what I saw,
Speaker 1: like the words and the actions of the people who
Speaker 1: were sharing the words weren't aligned. I'm like, hey, bro,
Speaker 1: you say this, but you do that. And I was
Speaker 1: ultra respectful. I was just I was a good little boy,
Speaker 1: like I was at church all the time. I preached
Speaker 1: at church. I preached from when I was twenty three.
Speaker 1: I ran how I did a whole lot of stuff.
Speaker 1: I was in boots and all right, and I believe.
Speaker 1: I believe that I was in the right place, doing
Speaker 1: the right thing, and the things that were being taught
Speaker 1: were true. And upon reflection, a lot of that's changed.
Speaker 1: Some of it's changed. Not everything that I experienced was
Speaker 1: bad or good, but yeah, where you're almost guilted into
Speaker 1: like we don't want you to think, we want you
Speaker 1: to believe. And if you think critically, you're a backslater
Speaker 1: or that's the devil, that's the enemy. That's all these
Speaker 1: words that were used around my curiosity and me going hey,
Speaker 1: like I see we're saying this, but we're doing that,
Speaker 1: And it's basically a told don't worry. Yeah, you're not
Speaker 1: spiritually evolved enough or you're not you know, so all
Speaker 1: of that and then for me to actually step away
Speaker 1: from that and go, what if all of this or
Speaker 1: some of this my experience anyway. I'm not saying the
Speaker 1: Bible per se, but what if some of this is bullshit?
Speaker 1: And that was terrifying for me to know if that
Speaker 1: was oh yeah, if that was true, and I went
Speaker 1: this could be bullshit or some of it could be,
Speaker 1: then maybe I'll spend eternity in a lake of fire
Speaker 1: or all of these fear based controlling kind of how
Speaker 1: do we control people while we help.
Speaker 4: You lose your community? WHI should become story too.
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, exactly exactly. So I think that whole thing
Speaker 1: of being able to truly figure out what you think
Speaker 1: in the middle of what you truly actually think and believe,
Speaker 1: in the middle of what you've been taught to think
Speaker 1: and taught to believe, because we're not taught, even in schools,
Speaker 1: we're not really taught how to think, how to critic
Speaker 1: analyze things, how to independently come to our own conclusions.
Speaker 1: Maybe they are now, I'm not sure. When I went
Speaker 1: to school, we'll just told this is what it is,
Speaker 1: this is how it is, don't ask any questions. There'll
Speaker 1: be an exam on Friday.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's going to be such a more important
Speaker 3: school skill than ever I know. With the I volunteered
Speaker 3: taught ethics at my daughter's school in primary school. They
Speaker 3: have a program that that's one of the main focus
Speaker 3: moment if they aims the program is to teach little
Speaker 3: kids to critically think about their own philosophy and how
Speaker 3: to examine their own worldview and how to talk to people.
Speaker 3: And it seems really valuable. But you're right, in general,
Speaker 3: that's going to be what's left when all the other
Speaker 3: kinds of tasks are done by AI is some critical
Speaker 3: analysis and finding truth and finding your own truth and
Speaker 3: a mid a very confusing, rapidly changing reality.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, March.
Speaker 3: Curiosity is the other thing. That's another thing I've been
Speaker 3: really interested in lately. When I was in the States
Speaker 3: on sabbatical last year, I saw a neuroscientist from Oregon
Speaker 3: Prison and he was talking about how novelty is such
Speaker 3: an important feature for learning in the human brain, and
Speaker 3: that when things are novel it actually encourages neuroplastic plasticity
Speaker 3: and you learn more rapidly. And a similar paper about
Speaker 3: how curiosity is so important in terms of those kinds
Speaker 3: of levels of change and how your brain functions. And
Speaker 3: I've been thinking about that in terms of therapy, but
Speaker 3: also more broadly, as you're saying about how important it
Speaker 3: is to engage people's curiosity and have some novelty and
Speaker 3: get them to think about things in a slightly different way.
Speaker 4: And I think that's one of our biggest.
Speaker 3: Weapons as humans, is to is to have curiosity and
Speaker 3: to notice discrepancies and be interested in other people's perspectives.
Speaker 3: And when you're not interested and you're not curious, it
Speaker 3: can leave you very stock.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think I agree, And I think sometimes
Speaker 1: we get into a like an operational kind of personal
Speaker 1: operational groundhog Day, where we just do what we've always done.
Speaker 1: It's not amazing, but it's less terrifying than doing something
Speaker 1: where there's uncertainty and unfamiliarity. So it's a three out
Speaker 1: of ten over here, but I know what's coming, so
Speaker 1: I'll stay in the three rather than strive for the nine,
Speaker 1: you know, or whatever that is. And yeah, like that,
Speaker 1: I think that's a little bit personality or genetically dependent.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but like I've realized at twenty two,
Speaker 1: I didn't want a job. I wanted to work, but
Speaker 1: I didn't want a boss. I didn't want to work
Speaker 1: for an organization. And I started my own company at
Speaker 1: twenty six and I've not had a job since. But
Speaker 1: then I look at other people and it's not that
Speaker 1: they're lazy or worse or it's.
Speaker 4: Just that risk diverse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, this would be the worst. Like my
Speaker 1: life where you know, it's like I don't know how
Speaker 1: much money I'll make this week or this month. I
Speaker 1: never know that because I don't have a wage, I
Speaker 1: don't have sick pay, I don't have a holiday pay.
Speaker 1: I don't you know. And that's cool. I chose that,
Speaker 1: and I thrive in this kind of slightly unknown space,
Speaker 1: you know. But for men.
Speaker 4: Tolerance of uncertainty, we would.
Speaker 1: Say, well, yeah, and I think we are in many
Speaker 1: ways many of us probably me with other things too,
Speaker 1: but we are somewhat addicted to comfort and familiarity and
Speaker 1: certainty and predictability because we like to know what's coming.
Speaker 1: But that's not consistent with life or the world, because
Speaker 1: the world is not comfortable or consistent or predictable or
Speaker 1: familiar or the events exactly like. So we live in
Speaker 1: a dynamic world where shit's happening and evolving and changing
Speaker 1: all the time, and if we can't adapt, that's problematic.
Speaker 4: That's definitely problematic.
Speaker 3: And part of what we do is try and for
Speaker 3: generally speaking, for anxiety disorders across the board, cultivate a
Speaker 3: different attitude towards uncertainty. Like if you feel a little
Speaker 3: uncertain or a little unsure, sometimes that's a sign of excitement.
Speaker 3: Do you want to know the holding of every movie
Speaker 3: that you're watching? Do you want to know how your
Speaker 3: life's going to turn out if you could know? Isn't
Speaker 3: there something about roller coasters and scary movies and going
Speaker 3: on a first date that's thrilling to not knowing everything
Speaker 3: so instead of just everything I don't know and I
Speaker 3: can't predict is very bad and scary. Like you said,
Speaker 3: I think you have more of a temperamental tolerance of that,
Speaker 3: so you naturally are more open to experience and.
Speaker 4: Those kinds of novelty.
Speaker 3: But for other people, kind of encouraging them to not
Speaker 3: need everything to be predictable.
Speaker 4: But beyond anxiety disorders.
Speaker 3: I think you can kind of stunt to yourself, you know,
Speaker 3: like not reach your full potential because you are so
Speaker 3: afraid of taking some risks or dealing with some uncertainty,
Speaker 3: or putting yourself out there in some kind of way.
Speaker 3: I mean that's something that I try and work on
Speaker 3: as well. It's very easy to stay put, but there's
Speaker 3: a cost to that too, right, Yeah, one what is.
Speaker 1: Do you spoke before? I think you said something like
Speaker 1: reflection and rumination? What is the I'm sure there's no
Speaker 1: clear line, but the space or the difference between healthy
Speaker 1: reflection and unhealthy or obsessive rumination. What's that scale look like?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think you underestimate the nerdiness and precision
Speaker 3: of psychology researchers, because indeed they have operationalized that and
Speaker 3: discriminated behind by that and created two different measurement scales
Speaker 3: to try and tease it apart. But basically they try
Speaker 3: and look at the difference between brooding rumination that is
Speaker 3: focused on like why did that happen to me?
Speaker 4: What's wrong with me?
Speaker 3: Why have I not got promoted? Why am I still
Speaker 3: meeting duds on my dating app?
Speaker 4: What's wrong? Why didn't have such bad luck in this game?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: So that's brooding and the kind of reflection that can
Speaker 3: actually be good and that would be more a little
Speaker 3: bit along the lines of what we're talking about, like
Speaker 3: what did I bring to that relationship in the past,
Speaker 3: What could I do a little bit differently? What is
Speaker 3: my strongest features? And what kinds of things tend to
Speaker 3: go wrong? Have I noticed any patterns in my life?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: So that kind of you don't want to just be
Speaker 3: an unexamined life where you don't do any reflection. But
Speaker 3: you notice that line, which again is on a measure
Speaker 3: of self report measure where you're not doing anything constructive.
Speaker 3: You're not reflecting in a way that's constructive. You're reflecting
Speaker 3: in a way that's just repetitive. It's focused on the past,
Speaker 3: and it tends to be very negative kind of just
Speaker 3: without answers analyzing why me is the very the very
Speaker 3: basic version of that.
Speaker 4: So, how can we as.
Speaker 3: Humans not get too preoccupied with the past and too
Speaker 3: stuck in a rut and particularly feeling sorry for ourselves
Speaker 3: and brooding, but you know, continue to have some reflections
Speaker 3: on what we're doing. And I think part of that
Speaker 3: is also combining it with action. How do you have
Speaker 3: that where you can you have these great conversations and
Speaker 3: have some reflections with people that you care about trust,
Speaker 3: and then also you go for a run, you try
Speaker 3: a new sport, you put yourself out there in a
Speaker 3: new book, report book, project. Whatever your passions are, you
Speaker 3: actually do them, and you're living your life consistent with
Speaker 3: your fat flat values, not just.
Speaker 4: Yapping about it.
Speaker 1: You applied pickable, that's what you do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess, and you hope not to break your
Speaker 3: leg and have a middle aged injury.
Speaker 4: But so far, so good.
Speaker 1: I probably shouldn't tell you on my psychology researcher, and
Speaker 1: I'm submitting my pH day in a few weeks, so
Speaker 1: forget all of that.
Speaker 3: Wait, I think I did see that. Actually, yeah, well
Speaker 3: I must have blocked it out. No, no, no, allowed
Speaker 3: to ask you your thesis topic?
Speaker 1: Or is that I've got the old plights on I'm
Speaker 1: standing at the I'm standing in front of you, impressed. Yes,
Speaker 1: some mine is around medea, perception and meta accuracy.
Speaker 4: Across the nerdiness of psychologists.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, pretty much like I'm not as a cross
Speaker 1: as you are, of course, but understanding. Yeah, like I've
Speaker 1: always been fascinated with this is a weird story, but
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you the story. So I've been
Speaker 1: riding motorbikes my whole life since I was five and five,
Speaker 1: six seven, and started riding on the road at eighteen.
Speaker 1: So I ride well, I drive a bit more now,
Speaker 1: but I'd ride a lot, and as does tiff Is,
Speaker 1: a fellow motorcyclist. Of course she is. She rides bikes
Speaker 1: and punches people, and she does a lot more than
Speaker 1: that everyone else. But I remember prof in the early days,
Speaker 1: when someone would come for a ride on the back
Speaker 1: of the bike, I would take them on a ride.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do anything silly. We just you know, would
Speaker 1: go out for twenty minutes, thirty minutes, if you know,
Speaker 1: if I had lived in the country for a while.
Speaker 1: So I take them down a country road, or I
Speaker 1: live now near the beach, or take them along the
Speaker 1: beach and as pleasant as I could make it. And
Speaker 1: some people would get back and they are like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, that is the best fucking thing I've ever done.
Speaker 1: And their brains lit up like a Christmas tree, the
Speaker 1: biochemistries going nuts. Their mind is racing. They absolutely we
Speaker 1: get back and they go, can we go again? Right?
Speaker 4: Yep?
Speaker 1: At the other end of the scale, you know what
Speaker 1: I'm going to say, I'd do the exact same thing
Speaker 1: with a different person, just as safe, just as beautiful scenery,
Speaker 1: just as careful. They'd get back, safe and sound, they'd
Speaker 1: get off, they'd go, that's the most terrifying shit I've
Speaker 1: ever done. Don't get that motorbike near me ever again.
Speaker 1: I will never do that again. It's like, oh, they
Speaker 1: just went through the same activity, but they had a
Speaker 1: completely different self created experience. And that used to that
Speaker 1: was almost like the genesis for me, wondering about how
Speaker 1: we can do the same thing, or be in the
Speaker 1: same room, or be in the same conversation, or have
Speaker 1: what looks to be the same experience but on a
Speaker 1: personal level is completely different. Like that, understanding how we
Speaker 1: create our own experiences, you know, like with your person
Speaker 1: with anxiety washing their hands in a public bath, you know,
Speaker 1: sink or whatever, and it's like their story is I'm
Speaker 1: going to get this and that, and then someone else
Speaker 1: washes their hand, walks out, washes their hands on their
Speaker 1: genes and doesn't give a shit. Like, try to comprehend
Speaker 1: the minds of others is such a challenge.
Speaker 3: It's such a challenge theory of mind and understanding other people. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and I was thinking I feel like I'm kind of
Speaker 3: I was imagining being taken on this bike ride, and
Speaker 3: I was thinking, I think it's both my downfall and
Speaker 3: my superpower. Then I'm always in the middle with these things,
Speaker 3: like I feel like I would, not knowing myself, think
Speaker 3: oh now I need to, you know, ride motorcycles. I
Speaker 3: need to be like, sign me up. But I also
Speaker 3: would enjoy it and think that was really beautiful and
Speaker 3: interesting and fun. I'm glad I tried that, and now
Speaker 3: I'm just going to move on with my next thing.
Speaker 3: And I come from I'm, you know, like a fairly
Speaker 3: standard upper middle class background in the States, but I
Speaker 3: have very my my two grandfathers were both criminals and
Speaker 3: had a lot of really impulsive, terrible behavior.
Speaker 4: And so I think about how now I'm such a
Speaker 4: middle of.
Speaker 3: The road person in my personal life with that kind
Speaker 3: of thing, like always the voice of moderation, which you know, no,
Speaker 3: it's like it's useful. It's useful as a psychologist, and
Speaker 3: it's useful in terms of talking to people, but it's
Speaker 3: also yeah, I don't identify with either of those extremes
Speaker 3: that you were describing of your your people on the bike.
Speaker 4: I think I would love the bike ride.
Speaker 3: And also I know I'm not cut out to be
Speaker 3: a motorcycle rider like you and Tiff.
Speaker 1: She doesn't know, does she diff miking an assumption based
Speaker 1: on zero experience.
Speaker 3: Right, you're right, I did pose with the motorcycle when
Speaker 3: I was little. My uncle had one. But yeah, I've
Speaker 3: never really written one properly.
Speaker 1: Having two grandfathers that were criminals and knowing that, like
Speaker 1: has that, has that influenced you in any way to
Speaker 1: think or behave or choose going, Oh, did you subconsciously
Speaker 1: or date down think? I don't want to become that.
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's genetic. I wonder if did you
Speaker 1: ever go I definitely don't want to be a crook.
Speaker 1: So there's that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I definitely think about it, not just
Speaker 3: in terms of myself, but in terms of my whole
Speaker 3: you know, family history, and more recently because I uncovered
Speaker 3: more information about one of my grandfathers and it is
Speaker 3: kind of disturbing, And you're right, you do try and
Speaker 3: because as you said, we all have this identity that's
Speaker 3: core to ourselves and then influenced by all these features.
Speaker 3: So I do feel like this shifting puzzle in my
Speaker 3: mind always trying to reconcile the different bits and how
Speaker 3: they landed, how they did, and seeing different bits of
Speaker 3: impulsivity in myself or my sister. But that is very
Speaker 3: tame compared to, you know, historical factors.
Speaker 4: So I do think it's interesting.
Speaker 3: And I'm thinking about, you know, kind of a book
Speaker 3: project working on some of some of these ideas of identity,
Speaker 3: not just your own identity, but that kind of epigenetics,
Speaker 3: bigger identity of your family and what parts of that
Speaker 3: form you're what you're fighting against, or what you've ignored.
Speaker 3: I don't know that sounded a bit like gibberish. Obviously
Speaker 3: still in the brainstorming phase.
Speaker 1: Now, if I don't at least talk a bit, or
Speaker 1: we don't at least talk a bit about OCD hoarding
Speaker 1: and anxiety, all of my listeners who tuned in and like,
Speaker 1: get to the fucking topic.
Speaker 3: See, I think have been all along. But that's a
Speaker 3: metal level. You can put that in your PhD.
Speaker 4: On a metal level.
Speaker 1: We have been we have. We've been circling around it,
Speaker 1: we've been hovering above it. Firstly, did you fall into
Speaker 1: this because an opportunity, this kind of area of research,
Speaker 1: there was an opportunity. It was already existing, and they went, hey,
Speaker 1: would you like to be involved in this? And you
Speaker 1: went yep, or did something like what was the stimulus
Speaker 1: for you to become the world renowned researcher that you are,
Speaker 1: which you are in this space? Like what started?
Speaker 3: I think there's a clinical story here and I'll also
Speaker 3: maybe a personal story.
Speaker 4: So the clinical story is my very.
Speaker 3: First client who I was assigned at this famous anxiety
Speaker 3: clinic I worked in in Boston. So I was, you know,
Speaker 3: only would I have been like twenty three or twenty
Speaker 3: four maybe at the time, and my very first client,
Speaker 3: and she had a severe OCD And as soon as
Speaker 3: I was assigned her, I called her to make a
Speaker 3: first appointment.
Speaker 4: I was very proud of myself. I hung up the phone.
Speaker 3: Then the nurse administrator who ran the program came over
Speaker 3: and said, she doesn't want you as as a therapist,
Speaker 3: so that was not a win. But anyways, she did
Speaker 3: come in and see me and we had this amazing
Speaker 3: transformative therapy experience and the nature of her psychopathology, the
Speaker 3: nature for OCD, plus the huge immense benefit I saw
Speaker 3: on doing exposure and response prevention, which is the gold
Speaker 3: standard treatment for OCD.
Speaker 4: I mean, I was pretty hooked at that point.
Speaker 3: So from then on I was very interested in OCD,
Speaker 3: and also then began working on hoarding disorder, which was
Speaker 3: considered at the time to be related. And I had
Speaker 3: amazing mentors who wrote the manual literally on hoarding disorder
Speaker 3: and ran group treatment programs where the hoarding clients that
Speaker 3: I saw were just extremely quirky, and I'm kind of
Speaker 3: a quirky person. They were just a little bit different,
Speaker 3: a little bit interesting, very curious, kind of unusual. It's
Speaker 3: a hard disorder to work with in some ways, but
Speaker 3: it's really also quite rewarding and interesting to me. So
Speaker 3: I find those two disorders did fit with me in
Speaker 3: terms of my personality and what I liked, I mean, depression, anxiety.
Speaker 3: They're all interesting and hugely burdens them in today's society,
Speaker 3: so very important.
Speaker 4: But I think I found my niche.
Speaker 3: But then from another perspective, thinking about like I almost
Speaker 3: was an English professor. I love literature. I still do.
Speaker 3: I read like a book a week in three different
Speaker 3: book clubs. I'm obsessed with fiction, and I think, well,
Speaker 3: I feel like I kind of picked a version of
Speaker 3: psychology where there is this story and the story about
Speaker 3: the person, and that is centered in a way that
Speaker 3: is still all very cohesive.
Speaker 4: With who I am.
Speaker 3: So those are my two different kinds of maybe related
Speaker 3: things of why I ended up doing being an OCD
Speaker 3: and hoarding researcher, and I love it. It's just always
Speaker 3: the most incredible interesting clients and the research is really interesting.
Speaker 3: I have wonderful students who have very clever ideas, and
Speaker 3: so it's it's fantastic.
Speaker 1: If you had to profile you or assess you or
Speaker 1: evaluate you, what would you say about you?
Speaker 4: I would say, probably.
Speaker 3: In terms of psychopathology or in terms of personality or both.
Speaker 3: Like I would say, I'm, you know, an introverted person
Speaker 3: but also a very people oriented social person, and so
Speaker 3: it's kind of on that border there, being quite chatty
Speaker 3: and extrovert as you can see, but also known as
Speaker 3: being a bit shy. I would say in terms of
Speaker 3: disorders I identify with and not that I'm diagnosed with anything,
Speaker 3: and I don't think that I am, but I identify
Speaker 3: again with like a little bit more of that chaotic
Speaker 3: kind of excited ady HD type profile and being really
Speaker 3: interested in lots of things, not always the most super
Speaker 3: organized person. Although I end up getting things done that
Speaker 3: are important to me and doing them very well, it's
Speaker 3: just more of a I have a lot of colleagues
Speaker 3: who are extremely organized and perfectionistic, and that is not
Speaker 3: my jam really, So that would be my general representation
Speaker 3: of myself.
Speaker 1: Have you got advice for I feel like this is
Speaker 1: for Tiff and I and three million other Australians to
Speaker 1: be able to focus better on things that we have
Speaker 1: to do but don't really want to do. If you know,
Speaker 1: when you've got to prep for stuff, how you'll sit
Speaker 1: down and then you get distracted four times in seven minutes. Yes,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I can go down a rabbit hole
Speaker 1: prof with stuff that I can look up, and it's
Speaker 1: three hours, and I've been writing something that I'm all
Speaker 1: about and I'm so into it, and I'm disappointed that
Speaker 1: I've got to stop. Yep, even now with my own research,
Speaker 1: like I've I'm submitting papers and doing all the stuff right,
Speaker 1: and I sit down I read my own paper. I
Speaker 1: want to punch myself in the face, like totally, I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, you know, and something you've read so
Speaker 1: much and so you're not really reading it. You're just
Speaker 1: looking at it, and yeah, how do we I think
Speaker 1: all of us struggle to focus with things that we
Speaker 1: need to focus on or with sometimes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and I of course have many of my
Speaker 3: own struggles with that, and my boarding clients.
Speaker 4: In particular are known to have struggles with that.
Speaker 3: So my favorite fun new thing that we've been doing
Speaker 3: is looking at imagery based approaches, and particularly one that
Speaker 3: one of my PhD students that I've been looking at
Speaker 3: called process imagery, which is kind of using imagery a
Speaker 3: little bit as a stronger and more powerful emotionally enhancing
Speaker 3: tool for motivation.
Speaker 4: So, for example, if you're working on I don't know,
Speaker 4: like you have to.
Speaker 3: Clean your room or you have to write your chapter
Speaker 3: for your PhD, you actually visualize yourself in that present,
Speaker 3: in that future moment, a week from now, a year
Speaker 3: from now, whatever it is, and think about it really
Speaker 3: in detail, what does it look like, what does it
Speaker 3: feel like, what's around you, and pre experience the reward
Speaker 3: as much as you can.
Speaker 4: Really savor it, lean into.
Speaker 3: It, feel it, and then working backwards, have someone interview you.
Speaker 3: All right, Craig, I'm interviewing you. Now it's a year
Speaker 3: from now, and you've submitted your PhD, You've finished. How
Speaker 3: does that feel? Imagine yourself getting your diploma, meeting with
Speaker 3: your supervisor, partying like having such a great time. Now,
Speaker 3: want to know, Craig, what did you do and the
Speaker 3: intervening year since since our podcast together to get you
Speaker 3: to that point? And you would tell me now, like
Speaker 3: what you think happened in that intervening year. Well, I
Speaker 3: scheduled time, I got a coach, I blocked this off,
Speaker 3: I quit this thing.
Speaker 1: What did you do?
Speaker 4: Because you probably know.
Speaker 3: The steps involved, but allowing yourself to feel and immerse
Speaker 3: yourself in that idea what it would be like, and
Speaker 3: then working backwards to get the steps. It has been
Speaker 3: sort of interesting and some preliminarily cool data around that idea.
Speaker 4: And people are using it in other disorders as well.
Speaker 3: Instead of just that slog of beating yourself up and
Speaker 3: you know, I should be doing this and I should
Speaker 3: be doing that and getting ruminating about it, trying to
Speaker 3: shift into that more proactive visualizing moode. I mean, some
Speaker 3: people aren't visual imagers, they have a fantasia or they're
Speaker 3: just not into it, so there may not work for you.
Speaker 4: But that's one tip I have.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you what sem thank you? That was amazing?
Speaker 1: What sayings to be a random question, but I want
Speaker 1: to bring it back. Do you think the idea of
Speaker 1: tol poppy syndrome, which aust Australia talks about a lot,
Speaker 1: do you think that's one? Is it a real phenomena?
Speaker 1: And is it more prevalent here than in the stites?
Speaker 1: Because I'm going somewhere with it.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think it's real. Yes, I think it's more
Speaker 3: prevalent than in the States. And I don't think it's
Speaker 3: all bad. I think there's something about the modesty and
Speaker 3: the community or to nature of it that I've grown
Speaker 3: to like and appreciate versus the grandstanding that can be
Speaker 3: encouraged in the US and the very egocentric individualistic I mean,
Speaker 3: it's still a Western individualistic nation here, obviously, but I
Speaker 3: think there's a little bit more community and don't big
Speaker 3: note yourself, which I've come to notice. I feel like
Speaker 3: I got pulled up once at the at of a
Speaker 3: book club meeting saying something that sound a little show offye,
Speaker 3: and I got kind of put in my box and
Speaker 3: I didn't feel good about it.
Speaker 4: But afterwards, I'm sort of like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe we could all do it a little bit
Speaker 3: less of that mmm.
Speaker 1: And also your intention with what you're saying, where you're
Speaker 1: coming from, that's not necessarily going to be their experience, right.
Speaker 1: You know? What's that? The false consensus effect where we
Speaker 1: think that people think like us, and so I got well,
Speaker 1: I think I'm giving tips, some like advice or some
Speaker 1: helpful advice or support or guidance, but her experience is
Speaker 1: unwanted criticism, and you know, and and I'm like then
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, how on earth did you get? You know,
Speaker 1: It's like then there's this whole thing between what I
Speaker 1: think is happening in my mind, what I think I'm giving,
Speaker 1: and what you are actually getting. You know, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: You would have with Tiff, given the relationship you seem
Speaker 3: to have, would be make all the difference between completely
Speaker 3: continuing to misunderstand if you could hash it out with her,
Speaker 3: that's the magic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've had our moments, We've never have we.
Speaker 3: Turned into like team counseling, couples counseling from our original
Speaker 3: on the couch therapy for you.
Speaker 1: Only well, well, she's got a boy who's much better
Speaker 1: than me. So it's definitely not couples. He's a nine,
Speaker 1: I'm a four. I'm I'm working up the difference between
Speaker 1: like this, you know, tap puppy stuff. But I always
Speaker 1: feel like I'm a bit self loathing, and when I
Speaker 1: do something well, I don't want to say to the
Speaker 1: world world I did something well, because I think when
Speaker 1: I was young, I got shut down a lot, right,
Speaker 1: so I recognized that I did a good thing or
Speaker 1: that was a good outcome, you know, But it's almost
Speaker 1: like I don't want to tell anyone if people find
Speaker 1: out that's cool, And because we can be so critical
Speaker 1: of others. And I when I was young, like in
Speaker 1: my twenties, I built a company and it did quite well,
Speaker 1: and that seemed to bother a lot of people, Like
Speaker 1: you know how everyone cheers you on in Australia, some
Speaker 1: people till you succeed. They fucking I'm like, okay, sorry,
Speaker 1: it did well. You know, I'll keep it to myself.
Speaker 1: More So, there's that, you know, like not wanting to
Speaker 1: be the self loaver, of course, or not wanting to
Speaker 1: self sabotage, but at the same time being aware what's
Speaker 1: that other thing as it shout and freuden that where
Speaker 1: people want to see you fail. They celebrate failia and
Speaker 1: your pipe like that's real, that's real, that's real.
Speaker 3: And I don't think that's any worse in Australia than
Speaker 3: anywhere else in the world. But I get your point
Speaker 3: about how do we find a way that we can
Speaker 3: share our successes in a way that's genuine and authentic
Speaker 3: and not feeling like we have to hide our another
Speaker 3: whatever the other class she is, hide our light under
Speaker 3: a bushel or whatever. But also not feel that there's
Speaker 3: this constant rates towards self promotion because I feel like,
Speaker 3: I don't know about you, but this self promotion that
Speaker 3: is now required on social.
Speaker 4: Media, it makes me feel very h It's just.
Speaker 3: People constantly like and thank you everyone for this comment,
Speaker 3: and I feel pressed to do it because we're encouraged
Speaker 3: to do it professionally promote our stuff and promote our students' work.
Speaker 4: But I feel like, ifever I look on LinkedIn, it
Speaker 4: just is too much.
Speaker 3: So what's the balance between people being so self you know,
Speaker 3: so self aware and constantly promoting their new business and
Speaker 3: we're so great and look at how we did our
Speaker 3: remodeling and we're so amazing, versus being able to genuinely
Speaker 3: say this was a success and I'm proud of this
Speaker 3: thing that I built, and not have people be negative.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's some negativity that's going to come from comparison.
Speaker 3: Right If you did well with your business, some people
Speaker 3: read that as.
Speaker 4: And I didn't do well enough with mine. I am
Speaker 4: not a success.
Speaker 3: And there's part of that that you have to just
Speaker 3: let go because you can't control other people's reactions to you.
Speaker 3: You just have to have your own authentic reactions of
Speaker 3: what you did and let go of the fact that people,
Speaker 3: as you said, evaluating through their own prism and particularly
Speaker 3: through own prism of how they feel.
Speaker 4: You'll probably notice that the people who.
Speaker 3: Are most encouraging our people themselves are pretty confident and
Speaker 3: happy where they are, and they're like, great job, Greg,
Speaker 3: that's really cool. And people who are a little more
Speaker 3: insecure tend to feel like, oh, this is a real
Speaker 3: indictment of me and what I haven't done, so that's
Speaker 3: not cool and shut up about it. So I think
Speaker 3: to some extent, you let that process go and know
Speaker 3: that everyone has their own things that are working through.
Speaker 3: But yet it is unfortunate if you feel like you
Speaker 3: can do something and be not want to be excited
Speaker 3: about it because you feel that everyone's going to be
Speaker 3: really negatively, negatively react to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, having said that, I have a lot of
Speaker 1: support now and I'm very grateful. But I think what
Speaker 1: is funny what you're talking about people basically beating their
Speaker 1: chest on social media is the irony is that trying
Speaker 1: to impress people is wildly unimpressive. It's like, I know
Speaker 1: what you think, you think you're doing, but you're not
Speaker 1: the opposite.
Speaker 3: So people are out there just doing their thing and
Speaker 3: not beating their chest as much.
Speaker 1: Right. I always say to people, don't tell me, show
Speaker 1: me if you're awesome, we'll figure it out.
Speaker 4: We'll figure it out, we'll see it do awesome things.
Speaker 3: I know there's people in my school and friends that
Speaker 3: I am wildly impressed with and are very little chest beating.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So also, I see you're the editor in chief of
Speaker 1: the British Journal of Clinical Psychology. Is that still you?
Speaker 1: You still doing that?
Speaker 4: Nope?
Speaker 3: I finished that up last year and now another Australian,
Speaker 3: Bethany Wooton, is the editor and cheap so that was
Speaker 3: a fantastic opportunity.
Speaker 4: I did that for six years and now it's kind
Speaker 4: of it's kind of cool.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to see, like what's filling the gap, What
Speaker 3: new things am I getting involved with which has been fun?
Speaker 1: How good are you relaxing?
Speaker 4: I'm pretty good.
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm not I'm not the worst at
Speaker 3: it relative to some of my peers. Yeah, I really
Speaker 3: like just like lying on the floor and reading my books,
Speaker 3: So I'm not too bad at it.
Speaker 1: I want to finish with just a chat around anxiety.
Speaker 1: I don't want to ask you a specific question. I
Speaker 1: just want you to riff on anxiety for me, because
Speaker 1: I feel like it's it's it's a thing, but it's
Speaker 1: kind of a lot of things, and I think we
Speaker 1: all experience it to some level, you know, from you know,
Speaker 1: minor discomfort or distraction to complete overwhelming dysfunction. Could you just,
Speaker 1: I don't know, talk to us about it for a
Speaker 1: minute or two.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was a very very general opener.
Speaker 3: I guess I'm thinking of I don't know if you
Speaker 3: came across this in your studies, but the York's Dodson
Speaker 3: curve and not being afraid of anxiety, knowing that a
Speaker 3: little bit of anxiety can motivate you and kind of
Speaker 3: allowing yourself to feel a little bit anxious and know
Speaker 3: that that's also excitement and novelty and interest. And also
Speaker 3: then when it gets too overwhelming, that you know you
Speaker 3: don't have to manage everything on your own. That we
Speaker 3: have community and connection. That's how humans have always operated.
Speaker 3: It's not a failing to talk to your friends, to
Speaker 3: seek out social connection, to seek out therapy if it's
Speaker 3: really bad.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I would I would say that that's for me.
Speaker 3: The main things is and knowing that there's a normal
Speaker 3: level that it's an evolutionarily evolved emotion that keeps us
Speaker 3: protected and allows us to register novelty and try new things.
Speaker 4: And learn things and notice big threats in our environment.
Speaker 3: And so that's the balance, is noticing when it's just
Speaker 3: the anxiety is tough living as a human in the
Speaker 3: world today and adulting and all those things.
Speaker 4: So it's okay to feel some levels of that and just.
Speaker 3: Accepting that, and it's just are you feeling that anxiety
Speaker 3: and still doing what you want to do?
Speaker 4: Are you paralyzed by it?
Speaker 3: So that's the question I'll be asking, is like, it's
Speaker 3: okay to feel anxious.
Speaker 4: You're about to give a big.
Speaker 3: Speech, you're doing a podcast or whatever, you feel anxious.
Speaker 4: I'm learning piggleball.
Speaker 3: I don't know what I'm doing, but as soon as
Speaker 3: it prevents me from doing things that I want to do,
Speaker 3: and I'm not going for a run and I'm not
Speaker 3: doing a podcast and I'm not doing things, and it's
Speaker 3: a problem, and it's like really getting some support around that.
Speaker 1: One of the things I do a bit is over
Speaker 1: the last twenty years, because I do a lot of
Speaker 1: corporate speaking, is help speakers, I guess, coach speakers. But
Speaker 1: what's the biggest tip for me as as a Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really sure. Yeah, Like I think one of the
Speaker 1: I'm not putting you in this pigeon hole because you've
Speaker 1: proven to be otherwise. But academics can struggle because they
Speaker 1: feel like everything that's coming out of their mouth has
Speaker 1: got to be research based, They've got to reference. It's
Speaker 1: and it's very very they speak a language that most
Speaker 1: audiences don't speak. So I say, before we even think
Speaker 1: about your data, your slides, your content, your messaging, think
Speaker 1: about how do I build rapport, connection, understanding and respect
Speaker 1: with this group of humans who aren't me, who don't
Speaker 1: think like me, who don't have my background.
Speaker 4: That's great advice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like if your content is awesome, but you, as
Speaker 1: a human on the stage are unrelatable and you can't
Speaker 1: tell a story and you can't be a bit a
Speaker 1: little bit. You don't need to be a stand up comic.
Speaker 1: But you know, like I'll walk up to a room
Speaker 1: and I've literally just been introduced, and the first thing
Speaker 1: I might say is put up your hand if you're
Speaker 1: an overthinker, and everyone goes, oh god, they put up
Speaker 1: their hand, and I go, how's that going for you?
Speaker 1: Shit house? Right? And they laugh. Now I've got everyone
Speaker 1: putting up their hand, I've got people reflecting on how
Speaker 1: they are, and I've got them committing and admitting something
Speaker 1: and then we just go from there. So being able
Speaker 1: to build rapport and trust quickly really matters. And like
Speaker 1: it's not like in academia where it's all about the information,
Speaker 1: the data, the evidence. Of course, how well you present
Speaker 1: that is secondary. But in a corporate environment or where
Speaker 1: you're getting paid, let's be honest, a shitload of money
Speaker 1: to have an impact and then bug her off, like
Speaker 1: you need to be able to. I call it edutainment,
Speaker 1: where you need to be able at the end of
Speaker 1: the day. If I was coaching you, I would hope
Speaker 1: that you would walk off stage and they would say,
Speaker 1: she's amazing. Can we get her back? Like it doesn't
Speaker 1: need to be too complicated? Yeah, you know so, And
Speaker 1: I mean I started. I did my first paid I
Speaker 1: wrote about this recently, my first paid speaking gig at
Speaker 1: twenty six, which was thirty six years ago. I'm sixty
Speaker 1: two and I got paid fifty bucks. I talked to
Speaker 1: twenty blokes in the timbiard in their lunch room. I
Speaker 1: spoke for thirty minutes. I prepared for three weeks. I
Speaker 1: was fucking horrible. They hated me, and I.
Speaker 4: Loved it, And I'm.
Speaker 1: Like, I know I can do this right, But whatever
Speaker 1: it is, whether it's research.
Speaker 4: Very resilient response, I love that.
Speaker 1: I loved it and I went because I knew that
Speaker 1: I could do it. I knew I couldn't do it
Speaker 1: tomorrow or next month.
Speaker 4: But you had a vision where you would get there.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and to be able to you know, go
Speaker 1: all right, well, I'm crap at this. But whenever we
Speaker 1: start something new, where crap. Where the white belt? Where
Speaker 1: the metaphoric white belt in the room, you know, in
Speaker 1: a martial arts kind of metaphor, and so how do
Speaker 1: I It's like when I started my research, I hadn't
Speaker 1: studied for twenty five years or no, about twenty years,
Speaker 1: and I was terrified. I was inept. I was terrified.
Speaker 1: I couldn't understand what I was reading. I didn't understand
Speaker 1: the language. I was sitting in a room at Monash.
Speaker 1: I was sitting in my cubicle with about fifteen bloody,
Speaker 1: uh genius twenty three year olds. It was like bring
Speaker 1: your fucking granddad to work day. I couldn't have been
Speaker 1: less suited, right, But you go, well, this is the
Speaker 1: worst I'll be. Yeah, that's the worst I'll be. You know.
Speaker 4: That's how it's so nice to be able to start
Speaker 4: something new.
Speaker 3: There's something so good about something brand new, and if
Speaker 3: you cannot let your fear or negativity stop you, and
Speaker 3: you can just see it like as you said, this
Speaker 3: is the worst I'm ever going to be, And good
Speaker 3: on me for trying something new. I don't care if
Speaker 3: I'm good at it yet, I just amn't getting out there.
Speaker 1: And I think for people from say TIFF's age forty
Speaker 1: ish onwards, especially fifty and sixty, I'm not telling any
Speaker 1: of them what to do, But I think it's highly
Speaker 1: advantageous to put yourself in situations where you have to learn,
Speaker 1: you have to evolve, you need to adapt and develop
Speaker 1: new skills and understanding and insight and self awareness, like
Speaker 1: because it's so fucking important for your brain. And as
Speaker 1: I've watch so many people age unnecessarily. My undergrad is
Speaker 1: in exercise physiology, right, so as I watch so many
Speaker 1: people age biologically, cognitively and behaviorally and at a rate that.
Speaker 3: They don't need to, yeah, exactly, I mean I also
Speaker 3: feel like just that feeling of being incompetence and getting
Speaker 3: comfortable with it. The other thing I do is I
Speaker 3: do surf life saving and I'm not a particularly good
Speaker 3: life saver, but I did the course and now I
Speaker 3: go out on the beaches and I patrol. And I've
Speaker 3: only done a few patrols, and I feel like I
Speaker 3: never know what the hell I'm doing, And how do
Speaker 3: we watch these radios?
Speaker 4: I don't know how to make the radio calls. I'm
Speaker 4: trying to learn.
Speaker 3: But I've met really lovely people, and I feel like
Speaker 3: each time I go a couple new things and I'm
Speaker 3: still those shittiest life saver probably there, and luckily there's
Speaker 3: a team of amazing people, so if something happens, I
Speaker 3: don't feel nervous.
Speaker 4: But it's been good. I just kind of sitting with.
Speaker 3: That feeling of oh, I feel it pretty competent most
Speaker 3: of the time at work, or at least respect it
Speaker 3: or whatever, and then to go in this other context
Speaker 3: where just lowman on the totem pole.
Speaker 4: So I think you're right.
Speaker 3: It's good for you in terms of you know, aging
Speaker 3: and your brain, but also socially. I think I would
Speaker 3: never talk to this random bloke who's doing on my
Speaker 3: shift on the patrol, but it's great to talk to him,
Speaker 3: and he's really interesting. So I'm meeting people all the time,
Speaker 3: which I wouldn't do otherwise.
Speaker 1: And how many people do you meet that you're like, Oh,
Speaker 1: you are so interesting, you are so smart, you know
Speaker 1: so many things I don't know. Yeah, let's chat, I Jess.
Speaker 1: Is there anything you want to publish or publish anything
Speaker 1: you want to promote or share with our audience? Website, books,
Speaker 1: anything like that, social media?
Speaker 4: Yeah, not particularly.
Speaker 3: You can google me and OC and I do have
Speaker 3: a website with some resources.
Speaker 4: If there's something concerning you, it.
Speaker 3: Will have links to other places with vetted information for
Speaker 3: OCD and and things that are going on.
Speaker 4: If you're a therapist to treat so OCD and you.
Speaker 3: Want to get in touch, we do have a website
Speaker 3: that helps connect people who are looking for treatment with therapists.
Speaker 3: So feel free to google my name, Jessica Grisham and
Speaker 3: OCD and you and s W and you'll and you'll
Speaker 3: pull up my page and you can email me.
Speaker 1: You're the best. I absolutely love that.
Speaker 4: That was so fun and I appreciate your advice.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 3: I'm going to take on toward all your public speaking
Speaker 3: advice too for my next my next talk.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll kill it. We'll saygodbarfair. But did you enjoy
Speaker 1: that tip?
Speaker 4: Loved it? Loved it?
Speaker 1: Smarty pants, smarty pants with charisma. That's a unicorn right there. Hi, folks,
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that. Appreciate you. Don't forget. Go
Speaker 1: to the project Facebook page if you want feedback, small
Speaker 1: little community of about four thousand people there who interact
Speaker 1: and have fun and ask questions. If you want to
Speaker 1: suggest a guest, do that. See you later,