WEBVTT - #2120 Can We Understand Ourselves? - Dr Jessica Grisham 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.440 I'll get a team. It's the Youth Project, it's doctor 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:06.840 or should I say professor jess you'll come up or 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:08.760 Jessica I should have found that out. I'm going to 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:12.360 go with and Professor Tiff is here. How are you 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:13.360 very good? 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:14.760 Thank you? Craig Harper, how are you? 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:18.000 Oh look, I'm just bursting out of my bloody flannel 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:19.960 shirt and I'm in a black T shirt because it's 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:23.080 so warm in the thriving metropolis Ofthampton. If you were 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.759 an academic, you were a professor of something, would it 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.560 be punchology? Would it be punching people in the face? 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:33.080 Would it be pugilism? What would you have a PhD? 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:35.920 And if you were heading down that route. 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:38.159 I am not sure. You know what's funny you say 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.640 that I just did a stupid post on my Instagram 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.840 on my Facebook noting that I've just become aware how 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:48.080 often I drop my phone and I wondered what my 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:52.919 baseline was with reflexes prior to over a decade of 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:57.520 training in a sport where handie coordination and dexterity and 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:01.240 reflexes was at the really heard of what you're training. 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:04.399 Do you know what's funny about you is like you're 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:06.040 out and about and you're a bit of a tomboy. 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:07.679 We know that. And by a bit, I mean a lot, 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:12.680 and by a lot I mean mostly. But you know that. 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:17.560 But yeah, you are not what people think when we go, 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.120 I'm bringing one of my friends or tiff showing up 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:25.000 to do that. She's forty, she's a lady. By lady, 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.440 I mean she'll punch you in the face nine times 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:31.600 before you know what's going on. So there's that. It's 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.080 you know, Professor Jessica might have her way with you. 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:38.400 She could probably armbar you real naked, choke you, submit you. 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.600 I mean she role plays an academic, but she's probably 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.760 extremely capable in a one on one scenario, Am I right? 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:46.840 Prof Well, no. 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.040 I'm feeling really intimidated by Tiffany right now because I have. 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:51.800 A terrible hand eye coordination. 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.360 I played pickleball for the first time yesterday and was 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.200 pretty abysmal, though I had fun being on a giant 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:02.840 tennis table situation. But at the end my husband said, oh, 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:04.520 you know, yeah, you're all right. All you have to 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:06.720 do is work on your hand eye coordination. And I 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.320 think if it's if I'm this old and it hasn't happened. 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:12.880 That's never happening. But I also am not really ready 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.399 to for a hand to hand combat, so hopefully that's 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:17.880 not part of the brief on this podcast. 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:21.520 No, no, I think I think you'll be all right. Okay, 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:23.720 last one for you, Tive before we have the proper 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:26.519 with the grown up in the room. 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:30.919 Definitely, it's not one I didn't think. 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.200 So if you had had to head down a field 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:36.560 of research, I know you don't want don't want to, 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.399 but if you had to, would it be psych would 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:41.600 it be or would it be something else? 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:48.360 Ah, excellent question. It would be something around human behavior 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.320 and psychology, I believe. 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:55.480 Yeah, well, endlessly fascinating specimens. 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:56.400 It's hard to resist. 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.959 Yeah, yes, you've got so much work with I mean 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:02.440 there's us two for. 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.679 As strat that'll give me busy for years. 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:09.360 I mean, speaking of issues, have you seen the profs bio? 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:14.960 So now, Jessica, do I call you jess or Jessica 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.840 fine es? Ye? Well, give you up, Thank you and welcome. 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.399 Sorry about that prelude, but that's how we roll. How 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:23.880 are you? 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:26.480 I am doing it? Okay, thank you. I'm excited to 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:27.560 chat with you this morning. 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:32.079 Yeah, are we beating the business meeting or the workman? 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:36.040 If we had some sort of offacially empty measuring smiles, 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.320 you'd already be ahead of the curve based on a 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.320 very grim staff meeting. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:41.360 So yes, all good. 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.480 Don't we all get excited about a good staff meeting. 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:46.560 Aren't you lucky? We don't have those two? 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:49.280 Sure, and they would be a whirlwind Wooden. 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.320 Although do you do get a bit scared when I 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.280 say I want to catch up with you and I 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.040 just want to catch up with you. You're like, what 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.600 what about? I'm like, yeah, it's okay, don't worry. 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:00.360 You can't say that as. 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.960 You sleep that night. Hey, doc jess all of it. 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.720 Could you just tell rather than me read something that 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.160 will do your head in? Could you just tell my 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:10.840 audience who you are and what you do and what 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:12.839 you're about. Please? Thank you. Yeah. 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:17.279 I'm a professor of psychology and I'm at UNSW in Sydney, 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:22.880 and my primary research passions that my students and I 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:25.920 do some experimental and clinical research are in the area 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:31.520 of obsessive compulsive disorder OCD and hoarding disorder and anxiety 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:35.119 disorders more broadly, so we do research and I also 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:37.760 do some teaching and training as part of my role 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:39.159 at UNSW. 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:43.960 Perfect what's the question that you never get asked on 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:47.560 an interview or a podcast or TV or radio that 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.080 you thought I'd wish Because I feel like people that 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.400 I interview that are interviewed a lot, and we're other 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.919 two thousand interviews in write or podcast in so I 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.760 try not to be too boring and predictable and reparitive. 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:02.479 Appreciate a question that you think I wish someone would 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.320 ask me this because this is a really interesting part 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:09.280 of this area that people don't think about or don't understand. 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:11.240 What might that question be? 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.680 All right, Oh, this might not be exactly what you're after, 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:16.280 This might be a little bit of a turn, but 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:18.120 this is what I was thinking about this morning on 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:19.760 my dog walk, so you can get a little a 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:23.120 window into that. I like when people in podcasts, when 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:27.080 when I'm reading any kind of biography, or when they 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.719 talk about anything they've changed their mind on or something 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:32.479 they've evolved or have a difference of opinion, because we 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.480 all get very stuck in particular viewpoints and become, as 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:37.640 you said, quite predictable. 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:40.080 So I was thinking on the dog walk. 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:42.479 This morning how a lot of the work I've done 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.200 has been in in psychology, and my training with a 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:48.240 lot of the greats of this century in terms of 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:50.520 people that I've had the good fortune of working with, 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:54.279 has been in cognitive behavioral versions of psychotherapy, and like 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:58.039 traditionally those versions of psychotherapy are very focused on the 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.080 here and now, very focused on what are your patterns 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.360 right now that are working for you aren't How can 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.640 we look at how you're thinking and what you're doing, 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.520 and how can we creatively shift those in a way 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:10.080 that's going to work for you and you're going to 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.640 be feel more fulfilled in your life or less symptoms 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.560 of whatever you're feeling right And in part like that 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:20.280 whole approach is a reaction to older models of psychology 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:24.120 and psychotherapy, like Freudian approaches. And you can picture, you know, 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:26.880 something you'd see on TV, someone lying on a couch 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.440 and tell me about when you were a baby and 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:31.440 how to do what was your toilet training? 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.960 Like that kind of thing, And too much. 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.479 Focus on the past, too much focused on the past 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.719 and your parents and how you were raised, and not 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:42.400 enough focused on what's happening for you today and how 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.520 can we help you So I guess what's been interesting 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:47.640 in the last couple of years I've been reflecting is 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.599 that the way that we are evolving as a field 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.240 in terms of CBT and the specific stuff that my 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:55.839 students and I've been doing in my lab has involved 0:06:55.920 --> 0:07:00.320 kind of incorporating more of those stories and elements of 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:04.279 your autobiographical past, and incorporating more of your early childhood 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.640 and what happened to you, but still keeping the focus 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:10.960 on how that's impacting you today. So I think that's 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.560 been sort of interesting. And then, you know, research is mesearch. 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:15.320 I've been thinking a little bit about, you know, my 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.400 early childhood or my past, or even my family's past, 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:20.000 and how that has impact in. 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:21.440 The way I live in the world today. 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:23.800 So I don't feel like we've totally gone back to 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:27.480 the days of Freud and really blaming all our in 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:31.160 neuroses on unconscious processes. 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.680 And our parents. But I do think that there's become. 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:37.680 Greater clinical wisdom in taking some time to appreciate and 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.080 understand some of those childhood experiences and even revisiting them 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:45.080 and approaches that we're doing right now, particularly imagery based approaches, 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.600 and really immersing ourselves in some of those very formative 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:52.600 experiences and how they still impact how we're living in 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:53.280 the world today. 0:07:54.920 --> 0:08:00.320 Love it. I love research may search too, to what 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.080 I'm going to ask a few philosophical ones that are 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:06.040 very self indulgent, just because these are things I think 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:10.800 about and I'm interested in, to what extent can we 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.800 understand stand ourselves when obviously the Craig experience of Craig 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.760 is subjective, not objective, And to what extent can I 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:22.320 be aware knowing that the thing I'm trying to understand 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:27.440 largely my mind is the tool that I'm using for analysis. 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:29.800 It's a bit of a mind fuck, right, It's like, well, 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:34.920 I'm trying to understand me using me as the revealer 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:36.720 of truth and insight. Yep. 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.840 Absolutely, And I think that is the part of the 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:45.040 potential magic of therapy is that it's not you sitting 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.520 in a room by yourself analyzing yourself, which I think 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.520 you would be very needs or gazing very leading to rumination. 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.360 And we all reflect a little bit on ourselves, and 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.560 I think some of that can be healthy. But I 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.400 think part of the magic is when you have another 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.840 person who you trust, who has training or even sometimes 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.880 a good friend of social support that you are able 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:11.320 to integrate what their perspective is and actually receive that feedback, 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.320 actually listen to what they say instead of just waiting 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.720 for your turn to talk about yourself. So I think 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:21.400 in genuine good friendships, relationships, and in good therapy, that's 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.319 the only window we have outside of our own as 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:26.040 you said, Psyche, and the fact that we live in 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.320 our own bodies, in our minds, and we're very much 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:32.160 main character energy for ourselves. But if you are able 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.800 to genuinely have these conversations with people, I think that's 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:36.000 where the shifts happen. 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:37.240 That's where you can. 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:42.440 Start doing things, doing experiments, trying things differently, hearing different perspectives, 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.040 and subtly changing maybe the way you think or the 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:48.320 way you view the world, which is what it's all about, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:50.760 in my opinion, is not being completely stuck in one 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:51.679 way forever. 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.640 And I think also being comfortable with the idea that 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.200 this is what I think, but it could be wrong. Yeah, 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:02.800 this is what I believe wrong, Yeah, because I've been 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.560 wrong thousands of times, So why would I think that 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:07.960 today will next week, month, year. I'm not going to 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:10.319 be wrong at least hundreds of times because I am 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:10.960 going today. 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:13.720 And we call that cognitive flexibility, and it's one of 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:15.960 the key ingredients to being able to have. 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:17.600 Change, and sometimes people don't have it. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.480 Some of the people we work with, due to the 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.520 nature of their disorder, whether it's severe OCD or severe 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.920 boarding or severe delusion psychosis, they. 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.000 Don't have that ability to. 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:31.240 Reflect on their own thinking and go, I am not 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.160 always one hundred percent right, So maybe I should just 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:37.120 listen a little and think about another perspective and give 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:40.440 it some chance to change. And then the question is 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.120 what do you do with people who are so rigidly, 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:47.560 absolutely sure that their reality, whether it's a delusion or 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.320 they're sure they need to save all their bodily materials, 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:54.800 or they're sure that they're sink in the public toilet 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:56.200 is absolutely. 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:57.240 Contaminated and going to kill them. 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.680 What creative ways can you find into someone is reality 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.800 is that rigid and that strong, to start to get 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.360 them to challenge their thought processes, like you have a 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.080 more healthy version of that. I recognize that I have 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.040 been wrong and I might be wrong again, and let 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:12.520 me listen to what other people have to. 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:16.200 Say, yes, yes, And I guess the other part of 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.640 that is really genuinely being open to that versus just 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:21.960 nodding your head and going, all right, I'll go along 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.360 and see Jess on bloody Tuesdays. But yeah, I'm only 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.680 doing it because it's kind of mandated or I have to, 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:34.880 or it keeps my family, you know, quiet, or I 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:39.440 think there's like a level of courage involved in to 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.240 open the door on that fear and that anxiety and 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:46.200 that overthinking rumination whatever, and go what actually is that about? 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:49.000 Like that's almost like the symptom, not the problem, Like 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:53.200 what's driving that? What's underneath all of this behavior that 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:57.840 is unhealthy for me? And I'm driving myself nuts. Probably 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.719 I don't mean that literally but perhaps metaphor. But yeah, 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:05.239 being brave enough to go I really want to understand 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.439 me is a little bit terrifying, perhaps. 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.520 So cterrifying, I think, gree It takes courage and openness, 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:12.920 and also for the person who's trying to help you 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.120 do that, it takes them not pushing you further into 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:16.600 a box. 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.720 And then we know that if I'm saying that's. 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.360 Absolutely wrong or you need to think differently, or I'm right, 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:24.880 you're just gonna get in a defensive crouch. 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.480 And you know, maybe call Tiffany over to punch me. 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:31.439 Like, it doesn't really work, It just makes people more So, 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.600 how can you genuinely help someone in your life who 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.920 feels that way, or a client and not push them 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.880 further into a really strong version of the world. How 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:43.079 can you be curious and open minded and support them 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:45.920 enough to say, well, all right, maybe there's a small 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.240 chance that this isn't true, and maybe I can start 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:49.480 thinking a little bit differently. 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.360 Yeah, that's my guy too, and I'm backed into a 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:58.240 psychological corner. Or I just called tiff to bring a 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.320 violent self over to the situation. I want to Yeah, 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:06.720 I think. I think also, like when what we think 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:08.800 and what we think is right in our beliefs and 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.960 our ideas are intertwined with our identity. When you question 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.480 my thoughts, my ideas, my reality, you're questioning who I am. 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.440 You're questioning my identity and how dare you? So fuck you? 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:26.160 And you know, there's there's that. It's like it's a 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:30.400 very multi layered kind of thing to be able to 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.800 go what if you know, Like I grew up in 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.880 a religious house, right, so I had this whole very 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:44.320 conditioned upbringing church school, connected to the church, parents, connected 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:49.760 to both friends, family, so very churchy environment. So everything 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:53.800 that I was taught in inverted commas, programmed, conditioned, you know, 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:57.000 to believe. I never really questioned that because this was 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:00.160 the truth that we lived in. You know, this is 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:04.320 the truth. And then you don't know any other echo chamber, 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.199 or you don't know any other version of the truth 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:11.560 because you've never set foot in that world, so to speak, 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.720 or you've never really lived there. And then one day 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.000 you might go and whether or not it's with you know, 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.800 barracking for an AFL club or religion, or being a 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.400 vegan or you know, whatever, it is that ideology with 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:29.280 which you are interconnected, and perhaps that represents you to go, Fuck, 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:31.040 what if I've been wrong for thirty years? 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.680 What if I was that moment for you? With your 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:35.560 religious upbringing. 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.200 Well, I mean I went on a bit of a journey. 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.400 So I was just raised in Catholicism, which is pretty boring, 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.160 but it's also it's kind of shout out to my 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:46.440 Catholic friends that I meant to I love you, but 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:51.080 it's pretty arrogant. It's like where right, everyone else is wrong. 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:52.560 But then a lot of churches and a lot of 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.000 religions like that. And by the way, I don't believe 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.040 whatever anyone else says, you know, da da da. And 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:01.160 so I went to Basically it's a you know, it's 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.160 a pretty boring assembly of people every Sunday at this time, 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:06.560 and then you go to school, you know. So it 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:10.080 wasn't particularly inspiring, but it was indoctrinating. And so I 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.000 believed if I did this, if I died with a 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.880 mortal sin on my soul, for example, I'm going to 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.440 burn in an eternal lake and fire forever. And I'm 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:24.520 fucking ten. I'm like, this is fucking terrifying. And this 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.840 isn't a thought or an idea, this is an inverted 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.680 comma's truth. And then I came out of that, and 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:32.600 then I you know, I didn't go to church for 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:34.520 a while, and then I met some people. Anyway, I 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.560 ended up being all me because I was kind of 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:41.200 god curious, like I didn't know what was what, if 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.520 anything was what, right, But then I went down an 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:47.800 evangelical Christian path, as you been from the States would 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.880 have I'm sure been very aware of, right, Yeah, and 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.400 then that's a whole different world, and it's like, oh no, 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.200 this is, this is amazing, this is and. 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:57.880 Then I rude a joy in it and a lot 0:15:57.920 --> 0:15:58.440 of connection. 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.120 It's very subdountable then, and so a lot of things 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.280 that weren't in Catholicism were in where I was anyway. 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.480 There was joy, there was connection, there was love, there 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.560 was compassion, there was understanding, you know, but also there 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:12.800 was very much indoctrination too, where hey, it's not okay 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:15.720 you can't go see your parents in the country on 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.080 Sunday because you need to be here. I'm like, but 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:20.520 I'm the only kid and they're my only parents, and 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.840 they're not super young, so I need to know, like, 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:25.640 you need to be faithful, you need to be all 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.600 this stuff. And then you're like, oh, So by the 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:33.080 time I really really started to think, oh maybe some 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:37.440 or all of this is bullshit, I was probably thirty Wow, 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:39.160 you know, and then a sort. 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.480 Of single moment or just overtime skepticism. 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:43.840 I just saw, I feel like I'm being psychoanalyzed if 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.680 and I couldn't I couldn't be happier, I couldn't be 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.360 hang on, can I lie down? Yeah? So I mean, 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.040 for me, there was just a lot of inconsistency between 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.200 what got taught on the poolpit and what I saw, 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.200 like the words and the actions of the people who 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.440 were sharing the words weren't aligned. I'm like, hey, bro, 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.520 you say this, but you do that. And I was 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:10.440 ultra respectful. I was just I was a good little boy, 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.920 like I was at church all the time. I preached 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:16.240 at church. I preached from when I was twenty three. 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.040 I ran how I did a whole lot of stuff. 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:21.520 I was in boots and all right, and I believe. 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.880 I believe that I was in the right place, doing 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:28.080 the right thing, and the things that were being taught 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:33.080 were true. And upon reflection, a lot of that's changed. 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.520 Some of it's changed. Not everything that I experienced was 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:39.720 bad or good, but yeah, where you're almost guilted into 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:42.359 like we don't want you to think, we want you 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:47.359 to believe. And if you think critically, you're a backslater 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.400 or that's the devil, that's the enemy. That's all these 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:53.960 words that were used around my curiosity and me going hey, 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.800 like I see we're saying this, but we're doing that, 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:01.399 And it's basically a told don't worry. Yeah, you're not 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:04.360 spiritually evolved enough or you're not you know, so all 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:06.680 of that and then for me to actually step away 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.240 from that and go, what if all of this or 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:13.159 some of this my experience anyway. I'm not saying the 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:17.000 Bible per se, but what if some of this is bullshit? 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:21.400 And that was terrifying for me to know if that 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:24.840 was oh yeah, if that was true, and I went 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:27.159 this could be bullshit or some of it could be, 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.920 then maybe I'll spend eternity in a lake of fire 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.280 or all of these fear based controlling kind of how 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:36.080 do we control people while we help. 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.000 You lose your community? WHI should become story too. 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.840 Right, Yes, exactly exactly. So I think that whole thing 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.840 of being able to truly figure out what you think 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.399 in the middle of what you truly actually think and believe, 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:52.720 in the middle of what you've been taught to think 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.560 and taught to believe, because we're not taught, even in schools, 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.840 we're not really taught how to think, how to critic 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:05.000 analyze things, how to independently come to our own conclusions. 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:06.959 Maybe they are now, I'm not sure. When I went 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.159 to school, we'll just told this is what it is, 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:11.960 this is how it is, don't ask any questions. There'll 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:13.080 be an exam on Friday. 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.960 Yeah, and it's going to be such a more important 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.679 school skill than ever I know. With the I volunteered 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.080 taught ethics at my daughter's school in primary school. They 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:25.120 have a program that that's one of the main focus 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.280 moment if they aims the program is to teach little 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.200 kids to critically think about their own philosophy and how 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:34.320 to examine their own worldview and how to talk to people. 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:36.680 And it seems really valuable. But you're right, in general, 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:39.960 that's going to be what's left when all the other 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.320 kinds of tasks are done by AI is some critical 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.720 analysis and finding truth and finding your own truth and 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.720 a mid a very confusing, rapidly changing reality. 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.160 Right, Yeah, yeah, March. 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.479 Curiosity is the other thing. That's another thing I've been 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:56.639 really interested in lately. When I was in the States 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.720 on sabbatical last year, I saw a neuroscientist from Oregon 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:03.440 Prison and he was talking about how novelty is such 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.719 an important feature for learning in the human brain, and 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:11.680 that when things are novel it actually encourages neuroplastic plasticity 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.960 and you learn more rapidly. And a similar paper about 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.040 how curiosity is so important in terms of those kinds 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:22.520 of levels of change and how your brain functions. And 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:25.040 I've been thinking about that in terms of therapy, but 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:28.280 also more broadly, as you're saying about how important it 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:31.800 is to engage people's curiosity and have some novelty and 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.400