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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's the Youth Project, it's doctor

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Speaker 1: or should I say professor jess you'll come up or

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Speaker 1: Jessica I should have found that out. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go with and Professor Tiff is here. How are you

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Speaker 1: very good?

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Speaker 2: Thank you? Craig Harper, how are you?

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Speaker 1: Oh look, I'm just bursting out of my bloody flannel

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Speaker 1: shirt and I'm in a black T shirt because it's

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Speaker 1: so warm in the thriving metropolis Ofthampton. If you were

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Speaker 1: an academic, you were a professor of something, would it

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Speaker 1: be punchology? Would it be punching people in the face?

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Speaker 1: Would it be pugilism? What would you have a PhD?

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Speaker 1: And if you were heading down that route.

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Speaker 2: I am not sure. You know what's funny you say

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Speaker 2: that I just did a stupid post on my Instagram

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Speaker 2: on my Facebook noting that I've just become aware how

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Speaker 2: often I drop my phone and I wondered what my

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Speaker 2: baseline was with reflexes prior to over a decade of

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Speaker 2: training in a sport where handie coordination and dexterity and

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Speaker 2: reflexes was at the really heard of what you're training.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what's funny about you is like you're

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Speaker 1: out and about and you're a bit of a tomboy.

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Speaker 1: We know that. And by a bit, I mean a lot,

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Speaker 1: and by a lot I mean mostly. But you know that.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, you are not what people think when we go,

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Speaker 1: I'm bringing one of my friends or tiff showing up

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Speaker 1: to do that. She's forty, she's a lady. By lady,

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Speaker 1: I mean she'll punch you in the face nine times

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Speaker 1: before you know what's going on. So there's that. It's

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Speaker 1: you know, Professor Jessica might have her way with you.

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Speaker 1: She could probably armbar you real naked, choke you, submit you.

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Speaker 1: I mean she role plays an academic, but she's probably

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Speaker 1: extremely capable in a one on one scenario, Am I right?

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Speaker 1: Prof Well, no.

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Speaker 3: I'm feeling really intimidated by Tiffany right now because I have.

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Speaker 4: A terrible hand eye coordination.

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Speaker 3: I played pickleball for the first time yesterday and was

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Speaker 3: pretty abysmal, though I had fun being on a giant

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Speaker 3: tennis table situation. But at the end my husband said, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, yeah, you're all right. All you have to

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Speaker 3: do is work on your hand eye coordination. And I

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Speaker 3: think if it's if I'm this old and it hasn't happened.

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Speaker 3: That's never happening. But I also am not really ready

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Speaker 3: to for a hand to hand combat, so hopefully that's

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Speaker 3: not part of the brief on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: No, no, I think I think you'll be all right. Okay,

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Speaker 1: last one for you, Tive before we have the proper

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Speaker 1: with the grown up in the room.

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Speaker 4: Definitely, it's not one I didn't think.

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Speaker 1: So if you had had to head down a field

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Speaker 1: of research, I know you don't want don't want to,

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Speaker 1: but if you had to, would it be psych would

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Speaker 1: it be or would it be something else?

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Speaker 2: Ah, excellent question. It would be something around human behavior

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Speaker 2: and psychology, I believe.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, endlessly fascinating specimens.

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Speaker 4: It's hard to resist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, you've got so much work with I mean

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Speaker 1: there's us two for.

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Speaker 4: As strat that'll give me busy for years.

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Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of issues, have you seen the profs bio?

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Speaker 1: So now, Jessica, do I call you jess or Jessica

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Speaker 1: fine es? Ye? Well, give you up, Thank you and welcome.

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Speaker 1: Sorry about that prelude, but that's how we roll. How

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Speaker 1: are you?

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Speaker 3: I am doing it? Okay, thank you. I'm excited to

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Speaker 3: chat with you this morning.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, are we beating the business meeting or the workman?

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Speaker 3: If we had some sort of offacially empty measuring smiles,

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Speaker 3: you'd already be ahead of the curve based on a

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Speaker 3: very grim staff meeting.

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Speaker 4: So yes, all good.

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Speaker 1: Don't we all get excited about a good staff meeting.

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Speaker 1: Aren't you lucky? We don't have those two?

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Speaker 2: Sure, and they would be a whirlwind Wooden.

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Speaker 1: Although do you do get a bit scared when I

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Speaker 1: say I want to catch up with you and I

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Speaker 1: just want to catch up with you. You're like, what

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Speaker 1: what about? I'm like, yeah, it's okay, don't worry.

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Speaker 2: You can't say that as.

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Speaker 1: You sleep that night. Hey, doc jess all of it.

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Speaker 1: Could you just tell rather than me read something that

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Speaker 1: will do your head in? Could you just tell my

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Speaker 1: audience who you are and what you do and what

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Speaker 1: you're about. Please? Thank you. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I'm a professor of psychology and I'm at UNSW in Sydney,

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Speaker 3: and my primary research passions that my students and I

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Speaker 3: do some experimental and clinical research are in the area

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Speaker 3: of obsessive compulsive disorder OCD and hoarding disorder and anxiety

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Speaker 3: disorders more broadly, so we do research and I also

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Speaker 3: do some teaching and training as part of my role

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Speaker 3: at UNSW.

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Speaker 1: Perfect what's the question that you never get asked on

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Speaker 1: an interview or a podcast or TV or radio that

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Speaker 1: you thought I'd wish Because I feel like people that

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Speaker 1: I interview that are interviewed a lot, and we're other

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Speaker 1: two thousand interviews in write or podcast in so I

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Speaker 1: try not to be too boring and predictable and reparitive.

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Speaker 1: Appreciate a question that you think I wish someone would

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Speaker 1: ask me this because this is a really interesting part

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Speaker 1: of this area that people don't think about or don't understand.

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Speaker 1: What might that question be?

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Speaker 3: All right, Oh, this might not be exactly what you're after,

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Speaker 3: This might be a little bit of a turn, but

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Speaker 3: this is what I was thinking about this morning on

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Speaker 3: my dog walk, so you can get a little a

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Speaker 3: window into that. I like when people in podcasts, when

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Speaker 3: when I'm reading any kind of biography, or when they

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Speaker 3: talk about anything they've changed their mind on or something

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Speaker 3: they've evolved or have a difference of opinion, because we

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Speaker 3: all get very stuck in particular viewpoints and become, as

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Speaker 3: you said, quite predictable.

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Speaker 4: So I was thinking on the dog walk.

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Speaker 3: This morning how a lot of the work I've done

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Speaker 3: has been in in psychology, and my training with a

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Speaker 3: lot of the greats of this century in terms of

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Speaker 3: people that I've had the good fortune of working with,

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Speaker 3: has been in cognitive behavioral versions of psychotherapy, and like

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Speaker 3: traditionally those versions of psychotherapy are very focused on the

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Speaker 3: here and now, very focused on what are your patterns

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Speaker 3: right now that are working for you aren't How can

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Speaker 3: we look at how you're thinking and what you're doing,

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Speaker 3: and how can we creatively shift those in a way

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Speaker 3: that's going to work for you and you're going to

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Speaker 3: be feel more fulfilled in your life or less symptoms

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Speaker 3: of whatever you're feeling right And in part like that

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Speaker 3: whole approach is a reaction to older models of psychology

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Speaker 3: and psychotherapy, like Freudian approaches. And you can picture, you know,

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Speaker 3: something you'd see on TV, someone lying on a couch

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Speaker 3: and tell me about when you were a baby and

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Speaker 3: how to do what was your toilet training?

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Speaker 4: Like that kind of thing, And too much.

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Speaker 3: Focus on the past, too much focused on the past

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Speaker 3: and your parents and how you were raised, and not

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Speaker 3: enough focused on what's happening for you today and how

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Speaker 3: can we help you So I guess what's been interesting

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Speaker 3: in the last couple of years I've been reflecting is

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Speaker 3: that the way that we are evolving as a field

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Speaker 3: in terms of CBT and the specific stuff that my

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Speaker 3: students and I've been doing in my lab has involved

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Speaker 3: kind of incorporating more of those stories and elements of

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Speaker 3: your autobiographical past, and incorporating more of your early childhood

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Speaker 3: and what happened to you, but still keeping the focus

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Speaker 3: on how that's impacting you today. So I think that's

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Speaker 3: been sort of interesting. And then, you know, research is mesearch.

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Speaker 3: I've been thinking a little bit about, you know, my

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Speaker 3: early childhood or my past, or even my family's past,

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Speaker 3: and how that has impact in.

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Speaker 4: The way I live in the world today.

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Speaker 3: So I don't feel like we've totally gone back to

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Speaker 3: the days of Freud and really blaming all our in

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Speaker 3: neuroses on unconscious processes.

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Speaker 4: And our parents. But I do think that there's become.

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Speaker 3: Greater clinical wisdom in taking some time to appreciate and

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Speaker 3: understand some of those childhood experiences and even revisiting them

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Speaker 3: and approaches that we're doing right now, particularly imagery based approaches,

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Speaker 3: and really immersing ourselves in some of those very formative

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Speaker 3: experiences and how they still impact how we're living in

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Speaker 3: the world today.

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Speaker 1: Love it. I love research may search too, to what

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Speaker 1: I'm going to ask a few philosophical ones that are

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Speaker 1: very self indulgent, just because these are things I think

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Speaker 1: about and I'm interested in, to what extent can we

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Speaker 1: understand stand ourselves when obviously the Craig experience of Craig

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Speaker 1: is subjective, not objective, And to what extent can I

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Speaker 1: be aware knowing that the thing I'm trying to understand

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Speaker 1: largely my mind is the tool that I'm using for analysis.

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Speaker 1: It's a bit of a mind fuck, right, It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand me using me as the revealer

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Speaker 1: of truth and insight. Yep.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I think that is the part of the

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Speaker 3: potential magic of therapy is that it's not you sitting

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Speaker 3: in a room by yourself analyzing yourself, which I think

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Speaker 3: you would be very needs or gazing very leading to rumination.

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Speaker 3: And we all reflect a little bit on ourselves, and

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Speaker 3: I think some of that can be healthy. But I

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Speaker 3: think part of the magic is when you have another

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Speaker 3: person who you trust, who has training or even sometimes

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Speaker 3: a good friend of social support that you are able

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Speaker 3: to integrate what their perspective is and actually receive that feedback,

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Speaker 3: actually listen to what they say instead of just waiting

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Speaker 3: for your turn to talk about yourself. So I think

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Speaker 3: in genuine good friendships, relationships, and in good therapy, that's

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Speaker 3: the only window we have outside of our own as

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Speaker 3: you said, Psyche, and the fact that we live in

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Speaker 3: our own bodies, in our minds, and we're very much

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Speaker 3: main character energy for ourselves. But if you are able

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Speaker 3: to genuinely have these conversations with people, I think that's

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Speaker 3: where the shifts happen.

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Speaker 4: That's where you can.

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Speaker 3: Start doing things, doing experiments, trying things differently, hearing different perspectives,

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Speaker 3: and subtly changing maybe the way you think or the

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Speaker 3: way you view the world, which is what it's all about,

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Speaker 3: in my opinion, is not being completely stuck in one

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Speaker 3: way forever.

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Speaker 1: And I think also being comfortable with the idea that

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Speaker 1: this is what I think, but it could be wrong. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is what I believe wrong, Yeah, because I've been

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Speaker 1: wrong thousands of times, So why would I think that

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Speaker 1: today will next week, month, year. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: be wrong at least hundreds of times because I am

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Speaker 1: going today.

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Speaker 3: And we call that cognitive flexibility, and it's one of

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Speaker 3: the key ingredients to being able to have.

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Speaker 4: Change, and sometimes people don't have it.

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Speaker 3: Some of the people we work with, due to the

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Speaker 3: nature of their disorder, whether it's severe OCD or severe

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Speaker 3: boarding or severe delusion psychosis, they.

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Speaker 4: Don't have that ability to.

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Speaker 3: Reflect on their own thinking and go, I am not

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Speaker 3: always one hundred percent right, So maybe I should just

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Speaker 3: listen a little and think about another perspective and give

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Speaker 3: it some chance to change. And then the question is

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Speaker 3: what do you do with people who are so rigidly,

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Speaker 3: absolutely sure that their reality, whether it's a delusion or

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Speaker 3: they're sure they need to save all their bodily materials,

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Speaker 3: or they're sure that they're sink in the public toilet

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Speaker 3: is absolutely.

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Speaker 4: Contaminated and going to kill them.

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Speaker 3: What creative ways can you find into someone is reality

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Speaker 3: is that rigid and that strong, to start to get

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Speaker 3: them to challenge their thought processes, like you have a

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Speaker 3: more healthy version of that. I recognize that I have

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Speaker 3: been wrong and I might be wrong again, and let

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Speaker 3: me listen to what other people have to.

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Speaker 1: Say, yes, yes, And I guess the other part of

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Speaker 1: that is really genuinely being open to that versus just

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Speaker 1: nodding your head and going, all right, I'll go along

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Speaker 1: and see Jess on bloody Tuesdays. But yeah, I'm only

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Speaker 1: doing it because it's kind of mandated or I have to,

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Speaker 1: or it keeps my family, you know, quiet, or I

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Speaker 1: think there's like a level of courage involved in to

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Speaker 1: open the door on that fear and that anxiety and

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Speaker 1: that overthinking rumination whatever, and go what actually is that about?

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Speaker 1: Like that's almost like the symptom, not the problem, Like

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Speaker 1: what's driving that? What's underneath all of this behavior that

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Speaker 1: is unhealthy for me? And I'm driving myself nuts. Probably

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Speaker 1: I don't mean that literally but perhaps metaphor. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: being brave enough to go I really want to understand

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Speaker 1: me is a little bit terrifying, perhaps.

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Speaker 3: So cterrifying, I think, gree It takes courage and openness,

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Speaker 3: and also for the person who's trying to help you

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Speaker 3: do that, it takes them not pushing you further into

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Speaker 3: a box.

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Speaker 4: And then we know that if I'm saying that's.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely wrong or you need to think differently, or I'm right,

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Speaker 3: you're just gonna get in a defensive crouch.

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Speaker 4: And you know, maybe call Tiffany over to punch me.

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Speaker 3: Like, it doesn't really work, It just makes people more So,

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Speaker 3: how can you genuinely help someone in your life who

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Speaker 3: feels that way, or a client and not push them

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Speaker 3: further into a really strong version of the world. How

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Speaker 3: can you be curious and open minded and support them

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Speaker 3: enough to say, well, all right, maybe there's a small

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Speaker 3: chance that this isn't true, and maybe I can start

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Speaker 3: thinking a little bit differently.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my guy too, and I'm backed into a

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Speaker 1: psychological corner. Or I just called tiff to bring a

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Speaker 1: violent self over to the situation. I want to Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think. I think also, like when what we think

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Speaker 1: and what we think is right in our beliefs and

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Speaker 1: our ideas are intertwined with our identity. When you question

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Speaker 1: my thoughts, my ideas, my reality, you're questioning who I am.

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Speaker 1: You're questioning my identity and how dare you? So fuck you?

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Speaker 1: And you know, there's there's that. It's like it's a

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Speaker 1: very multi layered kind of thing to be able to

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Speaker 1: go what if you know, Like I grew up in

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Speaker 1: a religious house, right, so I had this whole very

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Speaker 1: conditioned upbringing church school, connected to the church, parents, connected

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Speaker 1: to both friends, family, so very churchy environment. So everything

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Speaker 1: that I was taught in inverted commas, programmed, conditioned, you know,

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Speaker 1: to believe. I never really questioned that because this was

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Speaker 1: the truth that we lived in. You know, this is

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Speaker 1: the truth. And then you don't know any other echo chamber,

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Speaker 1: or you don't know any other version of the truth

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Speaker 1: because you've never set foot in that world, so to speak,

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Speaker 1: or you've never really lived there. And then one day

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Speaker 1: you might go and whether or not it's with you know,

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Speaker 1: barracking for an AFL club or religion, or being a

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Speaker 1: vegan or you know, whatever, it is that ideology with

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Speaker 1: which you are interconnected, and perhaps that represents you to go, Fuck,

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Speaker 1: what if I've been wrong for thirty years?

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Speaker 4: What if I was that moment for you? With your

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Speaker 4: religious upbringing.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean I went on a bit of a journey.

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Speaker 1: So I was just raised in Catholicism, which is pretty boring,

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Speaker 1: but it's also it's kind of shout out to my

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Speaker 1: Catholic friends that I meant to I love you, but

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Speaker 1: it's pretty arrogant. It's like where right, everyone else is wrong.

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Speaker 1: But then a lot of churches and a lot of

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Speaker 1: religions like that. And by the way, I don't believe

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Speaker 1: whatever anyone else says, you know, da da da. And

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Speaker 1: so I went to Basically it's a you know, it's

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Speaker 1: a pretty boring assembly of people every Sunday at this time,

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Speaker 1: and then you go to school, you know. So it

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Speaker 1: wasn't particularly inspiring, but it was indoctrinating. And so I

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Speaker 1: believed if I did this, if I died with a

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Speaker 1: mortal sin on my soul, for example, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: burn in an eternal lake and fire forever. And I'm

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Speaker 1: fucking ten. I'm like, this is fucking terrifying. And this

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Speaker 1: isn't a thought or an idea, this is an inverted

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Speaker 1: comma's truth. And then I came out of that, and

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Speaker 1: then I you know, I didn't go to church for

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Speaker 1: a while, and then I met some people. Anyway, I

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Speaker 1: ended up being all me because I was kind of

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Speaker 1: god curious, like I didn't know what was what, if

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Speaker 1: anything was what, right, But then I went down an

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Speaker 1: evangelical Christian path, as you been from the States would

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Speaker 1: have I'm sure been very aware of, right, Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then that's a whole different world, and it's like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: this is, this is amazing, this is and.

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Speaker 4: Then I rude a joy in it and a lot

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Speaker 4: of connection.

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Speaker 1: It's very subdountable then, and so a lot of things

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Speaker 1: that weren't in Catholicism were in where I was anyway.

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Speaker 1: There was joy, there was connection, there was love, there

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Speaker 1: was compassion, there was understanding, you know, but also there

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Speaker 1: was very much indoctrination too, where hey, it's not okay

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Speaker 1: you can't go see your parents in the country on

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Speaker 1: Sunday because you need to be here. I'm like, but

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Speaker 1: I'm the only kid and they're my only parents, and

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Speaker 1: they're not super young, so I need to know, like,

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Speaker 1: you need to be faithful, you need to be all

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Speaker 1: this stuff. And then you're like, oh, So by the

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Speaker 1: time I really really started to think, oh maybe some

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Speaker 1: or all of this is bullshit, I was probably thirty Wow,

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Speaker 1: you know, and then a sort.

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Speaker 4: Of single moment or just overtime skepticism.

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Speaker 1: I just saw, I feel like I'm being psychoanalyzed if

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't I couldn't be happier, I couldn't be

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Speaker 1: hang on, can I lie down? Yeah? So I mean,

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Speaker 1: for me, there was just a lot of inconsistency between

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Speaker 1: what got taught on the poolpit and what I saw,

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Speaker 1: like the words and the actions of the people who

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Speaker 1: were sharing the words weren't aligned. I'm like, hey, bro,

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Speaker 1: you say this, but you do that. And I was

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Speaker 1: ultra respectful. I was just I was a good little boy,

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Speaker 1: like I was at church all the time. I preached

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Speaker 1: at church. I preached from when I was twenty three.

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Speaker 1: I ran how I did a whole lot of stuff.

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Speaker 1: I was in boots and all right, and I believe.

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Speaker 1: I believe that I was in the right place, doing

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Speaker 1: the right thing, and the things that were being taught

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Speaker 1: were true. And upon reflection, a lot of that's changed.

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Speaker 1: Some of it's changed. Not everything that I experienced was

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Speaker 1: bad or good, but yeah, where you're almost guilted into

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Speaker 1: like we don't want you to think, we want you

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Speaker 1: to believe. And if you think critically, you're a backslater

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Speaker 1: or that's the devil, that's the enemy. That's all these

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Speaker 1: words that were used around my curiosity and me going hey,

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Speaker 1: like I see we're saying this, but we're doing that,

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Speaker 1: And it's basically a told don't worry. Yeah, you're not

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Speaker 1: spiritually evolved enough or you're not you know, so all

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Speaker 1: of that and then for me to actually step away

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Speaker 1: from that and go, what if all of this or

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Speaker 1: some of this my experience anyway. I'm not saying the

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Speaker 1: Bible per se, but what if some of this is bullshit?

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Speaker 1: And that was terrifying for me to know if that

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Speaker 1: was oh yeah, if that was true, and I went

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Speaker 1: this could be bullshit or some of it could be,

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Speaker 1: then maybe I'll spend eternity in a lake of fire

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Speaker 1: or all of these fear based controlling kind of how

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Speaker 1: do we control people while we help.

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Speaker 4: You lose your community? WHI should become story too.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yes, exactly exactly. So I think that whole thing

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Speaker 1: of being able to truly figure out what you think

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Speaker 1: in the middle of what you truly actually think and believe,

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Speaker 1: in the middle of what you've been taught to think

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Speaker 1: and taught to believe, because we're not taught, even in schools,

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Speaker 1: we're not really taught how to think, how to critic

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Speaker 1: analyze things, how to independently come to our own conclusions.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they are now, I'm not sure. When I went

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Speaker 1: to school, we'll just told this is what it is,

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Speaker 1: this is how it is, don't ask any questions. There'll

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Speaker 1: be an exam on Friday.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's going to be such a more important

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Speaker 3: school skill than ever I know. With the I volunteered

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Speaker 3: taught ethics at my daughter's school in primary school. They

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Speaker 3: have a program that that's one of the main focus

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Speaker 3: moment if they aims the program is to teach little

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Speaker 3: kids to critically think about their own philosophy and how

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Speaker 3: to examine their own worldview and how to talk to people.

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Speaker 3: And it seems really valuable. But you're right, in general,

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Speaker 3: that's going to be what's left when all the other

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Speaker 3: kinds of tasks are done by AI is some critical

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Speaker 3: analysis and finding truth and finding your own truth and

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Speaker 3: a mid a very confusing, rapidly changing reality.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, March.

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Speaker 3: Curiosity is the other thing. That's another thing I've been

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Speaker 3: really interested in lately. When I was in the States

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Speaker 3: on sabbatical last year, I saw a neuroscientist from Oregon

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Speaker 3: Prison and he was talking about how novelty is such

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Speaker 3: an important feature for learning in the human brain, and

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Speaker 3: that when things are novel it actually encourages neuroplastic plasticity

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Speaker 3: and you learn more rapidly. And a similar paper about

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Speaker 3: how curiosity is so important in terms of those kinds

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Speaker 3: of levels of change and how your brain functions. And

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Speaker 3: I've been thinking about that in terms of therapy, but

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Speaker 3: also more broadly, as you're saying about how important it

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Speaker 3: is to engage people's curiosity and have some novelty and

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Speaker 3: get them to think about things in a slightly different way.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's one of our biggest.

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Speaker 3: Weapons as humans, is to is to have curiosity and

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Speaker 3: to notice discrepancies and be interested in other people's perspectives.

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Speaker 3: And when you're not interested and you're not curious, it

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Speaker 3: can leave you very stock.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think I agree, And I think sometimes

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Speaker 1: we get into a like an operational kind of personal

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Speaker 1: operational groundhog Day, where we just do what we've always done.

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Speaker 1: It's not amazing, but it's less terrifying than doing something

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Speaker 1: where there's uncertainty and unfamiliarity. So it's a three out

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Speaker 1: of ten over here, but I know what's coming, so

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Speaker 1: I'll stay in the three rather than strive for the nine,

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Speaker 1: you know, or whatever that is. And yeah, like that,

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Speaker 1: I think that's a little bit personality or genetically dependent.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but like I've realized at twenty two,

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Speaker 1: I didn't want a job. I wanted to work, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't want a boss. I didn't want to work

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Speaker 1: for an organization. And I started my own company at

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Speaker 1: twenty six and I've not had a job since. But

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Speaker 1: then I look at other people and it's not that

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Speaker 1: they're lazy or worse or it's.

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Speaker 4: Just that risk diverse.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, this would be the worst. Like my

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Speaker 1: life where you know, it's like I don't know how

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Speaker 1: much money I'll make this week or this month. I

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Speaker 1: never know that because I don't have a wage, I

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Speaker 1: don't have sick pay, I don't have a holiday pay.

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Speaker 1: I don't you know. And that's cool. I chose that,

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Speaker 1: and I thrive in this kind of slightly unknown space,

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Speaker 1: you know. But for men.

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Speaker 4: Tolerance of uncertainty, we would.

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Speaker 1: Say, well, yeah, and I think we are in many

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Speaker 1: ways many of us probably me with other things too,

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Speaker 1: but we are somewhat addicted to comfort and familiarity and

436
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 1: certainty and predictability because we like to know what's coming.

437
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: But that's not consistent with life or the world, because

438
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,199
Speaker 1: the world is not comfortable or consistent or predictable or

439
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: familiar or the events exactly like. So we live in

440
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 1: a dynamic world where shit's happening and evolving and changing

441
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 1: all the time, and if we can't adapt, that's problematic.

442
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 4: That's definitely problematic.

443
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 3: And part of what we do is try and for

444
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 3: generally speaking, for anxiety disorders across the board, cultivate a

445
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 3: different attitude towards uncertainty. Like if you feel a little

446
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 3: uncertain or a little unsure, sometimes that's a sign of excitement.

447
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 3: Do you want to know the holding of every movie

448
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 3: that you're watching? Do you want to know how your

449
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 3: life's going to turn out if you could know? Isn't

450
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 3: there something about roller coasters and scary movies and going

451
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,360
Speaker 3: on a first date that's thrilling to not knowing everything

452
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 3: so instead of just everything I don't know and I

453
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 3: can't predict is very bad and scary. Like you said,

454
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 3: I think you have more of a temperamental tolerance of that,

455
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 3: so you naturally are more open to experience and.

456
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 4: Those kinds of novelty.

457
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 3: But for other people, kind of encouraging them to not

458
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 3: need everything to be predictable.

459
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 4: But beyond anxiety disorders.

460
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,719
Speaker 3: I think you can kind of stunt to yourself, you know,

461
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 3: like not reach your full potential because you are so

462
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 3: afraid of taking some risks or dealing with some uncertainty,

463
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 3: or putting yourself out there in some kind of way.

464
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 3: I mean that's something that I try and work on

465
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 3: as well. It's very easy to stay put, but there's

466
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 3: a cost to that too, right, Yeah, one what is.

467
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: Do you spoke before? I think you said something like

468
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: reflection and rumination? What is the I'm sure there's no

469
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 1: clear line, but the space or the difference between healthy

470
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 1: reflection and unhealthy or obsessive rumination. What's that scale look like?

471
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think you underestimate the nerdiness and precision

472
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:32,239
Speaker 3: of psychology researchers, because indeed they have operationalized that and

473
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,959
Speaker 3: discriminated behind by that and created two different measurement scales

474
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 3: to try and tease it apart. But basically they try

475
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 3: and look at the difference between brooding rumination that is

476
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 3: focused on like why did that happen to me?

477
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 4: What's wrong with me?

478
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 3: Why have I not got promoted? Why am I still

479
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 3: meeting duds on my dating app?

480
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 4: What's wrong? Why didn't have such bad luck in this game?

481
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:56,239
Speaker 1: Right?

482
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 3: So that's brooding and the kind of reflection that can

483
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 3: actually be good and that would be more a little

484
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,199
Speaker 3: bit along the lines of what we're talking about, like

485
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 3: what did I bring to that relationship in the past,

486
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 3: What could I do a little bit differently? What is

487
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 3: my strongest features? And what kinds of things tend to

488
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 3: go wrong? Have I noticed any patterns in my life?

489
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 4: You know?

490
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 3: So that kind of you don't want to just be

491
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 3: an unexamined life where you don't do any reflection. But

492
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 3: you notice that line, which again is on a measure

493
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 3: of self report measure where you're not doing anything constructive.

494
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 3: You're not reflecting in a way that's constructive. You're reflecting

495
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 3: in a way that's just repetitive. It's focused on the past,

496
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 3: and it tends to be very negative kind of just

497
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 3: without answers analyzing why me is the very the very

498
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 3: basic version of that.

499
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 4: So, how can we as.

500
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 3: Humans not get too preoccupied with the past and too

501
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 3: stuck in a rut and particularly feeling sorry for ourselves

502
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 3: and brooding, but you know, continue to have some reflections

503
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 3: on what we're doing. And I think part of that

504
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 3: is also combining it with action. How do you have

505
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 3: that where you can you have these great conversations and

506
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 3: have some reflections with people that you care about trust,

507
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 3: and then also you go for a run, you try

508
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 3: a new sport, you put yourself out there in a

509
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 3: new book, report book, project. Whatever your passions are, you

510
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 3: actually do them, and you're living your life consistent with

511
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 3: your fat flat values, not just.

512
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 4: Yapping about it.

513
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: You applied pickable, that's what you do.

514
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess, and you hope not to break your

515
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 3: leg and have a middle aged injury.

516
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 4: But so far, so good.

517
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: I probably shouldn't tell you on my psychology researcher, and

518
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 1: I'm submitting my pH day in a few weeks, so

519
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: forget all of that.

520
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 3: Wait, I think I did see that. Actually, yeah, well

521
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 3: I must have blocked it out. No, no, no, allowed

522
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 3: to ask you your thesis topic?

523
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 1: Or is that I've got the old plights on I'm

524
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: standing at the I'm standing in front of you, impressed. Yes,

525
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: some mine is around medea, perception and meta accuracy.

526
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 4: Across the nerdiness of psychologists.

527
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, pretty much like I'm not as a cross

528
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 1: as you are, of course, but understanding. Yeah, like I've

529
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: always been fascinated with this is a weird story, but

530
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you the story. So I've been

531
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: riding motorbikes my whole life since I was five and five,

532
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: six seven, and started riding on the road at eighteen.

533
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: So I ride well, I drive a bit more now,

534
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: but I'd ride a lot, and as does tiff Is,

535
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: a fellow motorcyclist. Of course she is. She rides bikes

536
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,239
Speaker 1: and punches people, and she does a lot more than

537
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: that everyone else. But I remember prof in the early days,

538
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 1: when someone would come for a ride on the back

539
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: of the bike, I would take them on a ride.

540
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do anything silly. We just you know, would

541
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: go out for twenty minutes, thirty minutes, if you know,

542
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 1: if I had lived in the country for a while.

543
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: So I take them down a country road, or I

544
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: live now near the beach, or take them along the

545
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: beach and as pleasant as I could make it. And

546
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: some people would get back and they are like, oh

547
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: my god, that is the best fucking thing I've ever done.

548
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: And their brains lit up like a Christmas tree, the

549
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: biochemistries going nuts. Their mind is racing. They absolutely we

550
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: get back and they go, can we go again? Right?

551
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 4: Yep?

552
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: At the other end of the scale, you know what

553
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: I'm going to say, I'd do the exact same thing

554
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: with a different person, just as safe, just as beautiful scenery,

555
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: just as careful. They'd get back, safe and sound, they'd

556
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: get off, they'd go, that's the most terrifying shit I've

557
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: ever done. Don't get that motorbike near me ever again.

558
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: I will never do that again. It's like, oh, they

559
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: just went through the same activity, but they had a

560
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: completely different self created experience. And that used to that

561
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: was almost like the genesis for me, wondering about how

562
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: we can do the same thing, or be in the

563
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: same room, or be in the same conversation, or have

564
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: what looks to be the same experience but on a

565
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: personal level is completely different. Like that, understanding how we

566
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: create our own experiences, you know, like with your person

567
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: with anxiety washing their hands in a public bath, you know,

568
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: sink or whatever, and it's like their story is I'm

569
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: going to get this and that, and then someone else

570
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: washes their hand, walks out, washes their hands on their

571
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: genes and doesn't give a shit. Like, try to comprehend

572
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: the minds of others is such a challenge.

573
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 3: It's such a challenge theory of mind and understanding other people. Yeah,

574
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 3: and I was thinking I feel like I'm kind of

575
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 3: I was imagining being taken on this bike ride, and

576
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 3: I was thinking, I think it's both my downfall and

577
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 3: my superpower. Then I'm always in the middle with these things,

578
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: like I feel like I would, not knowing myself, think

579
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 3: oh now I need to, you know, ride motorcycles. I

580
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 3: need to be like, sign me up. But I also

581
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 3: would enjoy it and think that was really beautiful and

582
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 3: interesting and fun. I'm glad I tried that, and now

583
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 3: I'm just going to move on with my next thing.

584
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 3: And I come from I'm, you know, like a fairly

585
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 3: standard upper middle class background in the States, but I

586
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 3: have very my my two grandfathers were both criminals and

587
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 3: had a lot of really impulsive, terrible behavior.

588
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 4: And so I think about how now I'm such a

589
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 4: middle of.

590
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: The road person in my personal life with that kind

591
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 3: of thing, like always the voice of moderation, which you know, no,

592
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 3: it's like it's useful. It's useful as a psychologist, and

593
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 3: it's useful in terms of talking to people, but it's

594
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: also yeah, I don't identify with either of those extremes

595
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 3: that you were describing of your your people on the bike.

596
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 4: I think I would love the bike ride.

597
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 3: And also I know I'm not cut out to be

598
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 3: a motorcycle rider like you and Tiff.

599
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: She doesn't know, does she diff miking an assumption based

600
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: on zero experience.

601
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 3: Right, you're right, I did pose with the motorcycle when

602
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 3: I was little. My uncle had one. But yeah, I've

603
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: never really written one properly.

604
00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: Having two grandfathers that were criminals and knowing that, like

605
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: has that, has that influenced you in any way to

606
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: think or behave or choose going, Oh, did you subconsciously

607
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: or date down think? I don't want to become that.

608
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's genetic. I wonder if did you

609
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: ever go I definitely don't want to be a crook.

610
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: So there's that.

611
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I definitely think about it, not just

612
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 3: in terms of myself, but in terms of my whole

613
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 3: you know, family history, and more recently because I uncovered

614
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 3: more information about one of my grandfathers and it is

615
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 3: kind of disturbing, And you're right, you do try and

616
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 3: because as you said, we all have this identity that's

617
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 3: core to ourselves and then influenced by all these features.

618
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 3: So I do feel like this shifting puzzle in my

619
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 3: mind always trying to reconcile the different bits and how

620
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 3: they landed, how they did, and seeing different bits of

621
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: impulsivity in myself or my sister. But that is very

622
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: tame compared to, you know, historical factors.

623
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 4: So I do think it's interesting.

624
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 3: And I'm thinking about, you know, kind of a book

625
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 3: project working on some of some of these ideas of identity,

626
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 3: not just your own identity, but that kind of epigenetics,

627
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 3: bigger identity of your family and what parts of that

628
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 3: form you're what you're fighting against, or what you've ignored.

629
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 3: I don't know that sounded a bit like gibberish. Obviously

630
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 3: still in the brainstorming phase.

631
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: Now, if I don't at least talk a bit, or

632
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: we don't at least talk a bit about OCD hoarding

633
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: and anxiety, all of my listeners who tuned in and like,

634
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,479
Speaker 1: get to the fucking topic.

635
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 3: See, I think have been all along. But that's a

636
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 3: metal level. You can put that in your PhD.

637
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 4: On a metal level.

638
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: We have been we have. We've been circling around it,

639
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: we've been hovering above it. Firstly, did you fall into

640
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: this because an opportunity, this kind of area of research,

641
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: there was an opportunity. It was already existing, and they went, hey,

642
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: would you like to be involved in this? And you

643
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,959
Speaker 1: went yep, or did something like what was the stimulus

644
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: for you to become the world renowned researcher that you are,

645
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: which you are in this space? Like what started?

646
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: I think there's a clinical story here and I'll also

647
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 3: maybe a personal story.

648
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 4: So the clinical story is my very.

649
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 3: First client who I was assigned at this famous anxiety

650
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 3: clinic I worked in in Boston. So I was, you know,

651
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 3: only would I have been like twenty three or twenty

652
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 3: four maybe at the time, and my very first client,

653
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 3: and she had a severe OCD And as soon as

654
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 3: I was assigned her, I called her to make a

655
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 3: first appointment.

656
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 4: I was very proud of myself. I hung up the phone.

657
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 3: Then the nurse administrator who ran the program came over

658
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 3: and said, she doesn't want you as as a therapist,

659
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 3: so that was not a win. But anyways, she did

660
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 3: come in and see me and we had this amazing

661
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 3: transformative therapy experience and the nature of her psychopathology, the

662
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 3: nature for OCD, plus the huge immense benefit I saw

663
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 3: on doing exposure and response prevention, which is the gold

664
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 3: standard treatment for OCD.

665
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 4: I mean, I was pretty hooked at that point.

666
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 3: So from then on I was very interested in OCD,

667
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 3: and also then began working on hoarding disorder, which was

668
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 3: considered at the time to be related. And I had

669
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 3: amazing mentors who wrote the manual literally on hoarding disorder

670
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 3: and ran group treatment programs where the hoarding clients that

671
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: I saw were just extremely quirky, and I'm kind of

672
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 3: a quirky person. They were just a little bit different,

673
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 3: a little bit interesting, very curious, kind of unusual. It's

674
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 3: a hard disorder to work with in some ways, but

675
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 3: it's really also quite rewarding and interesting to me. So

676
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 3: I find those two disorders did fit with me in

677
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 3: terms of my personality and what I liked, I mean, depression, anxiety.

678
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 3: They're all interesting and hugely burdens them in today's society,

679
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 3: so very important.

680
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 4: But I think I found my niche.

681
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 3: But then from another perspective, thinking about like I almost

682
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 3: was an English professor. I love literature. I still do.

683
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 3: I read like a book a week in three different

684
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 3: book clubs. I'm obsessed with fiction, and I think, well,

685
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 3: I feel like I kind of picked a version of

686
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 3: psychology where there is this story and the story about

687
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 3: the person, and that is centered in a way that

688
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 3: is still all very cohesive.

689
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 4: With who I am.

690
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 3: So those are my two different kinds of maybe related

691
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 3: things of why I ended up doing being an OCD

692
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 3: and hoarding researcher, and I love it. It's just always

693
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 3: the most incredible interesting clients and the research is really interesting.

694
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 3: I have wonderful students who have very clever ideas, and

695
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 3: so it's it's fantastic.

696
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: If you had to profile you or assess you or

697
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 1: evaluate you, what would you say about you?

698
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 4: I would say, probably.

699
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 3: In terms of psychopathology or in terms of personality or both.

700
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 3: Like I would say, I'm, you know, an introverted person

701
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 3: but also a very people oriented social person, and so

702
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,280
Speaker 3: it's kind of on that border there, being quite chatty

703
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 3: and extrovert as you can see, but also known as

704
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 3: being a bit shy. I would say in terms of

705
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 3: disorders I identify with and not that I'm diagnosed with anything,

706
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 3: and I don't think that I am, but I identify

707
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 3: again with like a little bit more of that chaotic

708
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 3: kind of excited ady HD type profile and being really

709
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 3: interested in lots of things, not always the most super

710
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 3: organized person. Although I end up getting things done that

711
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 3: are important to me and doing them very well, it's

712
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 3: just more of a I have a lot of colleagues

713
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 3: who are extremely organized and perfectionistic, and that is not

714
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 3: my jam really, So that would be my general representation

715
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 3: of myself.

716
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: Have you got advice for I feel like this is

717
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: for Tiff and I and three million other Australians to

718
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: be able to focus better on things that we have

719
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: to do but don't really want to do. If you know,

720
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 1: when you've got to prep for stuff, how you'll sit

721
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: down and then you get distracted four times in seven minutes. Yes,

722
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I can go down a rabbit hole

723
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: prof with stuff that I can look up, and it's

724
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: three hours, and I've been writing something that I'm all

725
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: about and I'm so into it, and I'm disappointed that

726
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 1: I've got to stop. Yep, even now with my own research,

727
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 1: like I've I'm submitting papers and doing all the stuff right,

728
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: and I sit down I read my own paper. I

729
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: want to punch myself in the face, like totally, I'm like,

730
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: oh my god, you know, and something you've read so

731
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: much and so you're not really reading it. You're just

732
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: looking at it, and yeah, how do we I think

733
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: all of us struggle to focus with things that we

734
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: need to focus on or with sometimes.

735
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and I of course have many of my

736
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 3: own struggles with that, and my boarding clients.

737
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 4: In particular are known to have struggles with that.

738
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 3: So my favorite fun new thing that we've been doing

739
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 3: is looking at imagery based approaches, and particularly one that

740
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 3: one of my PhD students that I've been looking at

741
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 3: called process imagery, which is kind of using imagery a

742
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 3: little bit as a stronger and more powerful emotionally enhancing

743
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 3: tool for motivation.

744
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 4: So, for example, if you're working on I don't know,

745
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 4: like you have to.

746
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 3: Clean your room or you have to write your chapter

747
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 3: for your PhD, you actually visualize yourself in that present,

748
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,919
Speaker 3: in that future moment, a week from now, a year

749
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 3: from now, whatever it is, and think about it really

750
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 3: in detail, what does it look like, what does it

751
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 3: feel like, what's around you, and pre experience the reward

752
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 3: as much as you can.

753
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 4: Really savor it, lean into.

754
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 3: It, feel it, and then working backwards, have someone interview you.

755
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 3: All right, Craig, I'm interviewing you. Now it's a year

756
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 3: from now, and you've submitted your PhD, You've finished. How

757
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 3: does that feel? Imagine yourself getting your diploma, meeting with

758
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 3: your supervisor, partying like having such a great time. Now,

759
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 3: want to know, Craig, what did you do and the

760
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 3: intervening year since since our podcast together to get you

761
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 3: to that point? And you would tell me now, like

762
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 3: what you think happened in that intervening year. Well, I

763
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 3: scheduled time, I got a coach, I blocked this off,

764
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,439
Speaker 3: I quit this thing.

765
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: What did you do?

766
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 4: Because you probably know.

767
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 3: The steps involved, but allowing yourself to feel and immerse

768
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 3: yourself in that idea what it would be like, and

769
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: then working backwards to get the steps. It has been

770
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 3: sort of interesting and some preliminarily cool data around that idea.

771
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 4: And people are using it in other disorders as well.

772
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 3: Instead of just that slog of beating yourself up and

773
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 3: you know, I should be doing this and I should

774
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 3: be doing that and getting ruminating about it, trying to

775
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 3: shift into that more proactive visualizing moode. I mean, some

776
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 3: people aren't visual imagers, they have a fantasia or they're

777
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 3: just not into it, so there may not work for you.

778
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 4: But that's one tip I have.

779
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: Can I ask you what sem thank you? That was amazing?

780
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: What sayings to be a random question, but I want

781
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: to bring it back. Do you think the idea of

782
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 1: tol poppy syndrome, which aust Australia talks about a lot,

783
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: do you think that's one? Is it a real phenomena?

784
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: And is it more prevalent here than in the stites?

785
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: Because I'm going somewhere with it.

786
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 3: Yes, I think it's real. Yes, I think it's more

787
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 3: prevalent than in the States. And I don't think it's

788
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 3: all bad. I think there's something about the modesty and

789
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 3: the community or to nature of it that I've grown

790
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 3: to like and appreciate versus the grandstanding that can be

791
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 3: encouraged in the US and the very egocentric individualistic I mean,

792
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 3: it's still a Western individualistic nation here, obviously, but I

793
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 3: think there's a little bit more community and don't big

794
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 3: note yourself, which I've come to notice. I feel like

795
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 3: I got pulled up once at the at of a

796
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 3: book club meeting saying something that sound a little show offye,

797
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 3: and I got kind of put in my box and

798
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 3: I didn't feel good about it.

799
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 4: But afterwards, I'm sort of like.

800
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe we could all do it a little bit

801
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 3: less of that mmm.

802
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 1: And also your intention with what you're saying, where you're

803
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: coming from, that's not necessarily going to be their experience, right.

804
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: You know? What's that? The false consensus effect where we

805
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 1: think that people think like us, and so I got well,

806
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: I think I'm giving tips, some like advice or some

807
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: helpful advice or support or guidance, but her experience is

808
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: unwanted criticism, and you know, and and I'm like then

809
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, how on earth did you get? You know,

810
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: It's like then there's this whole thing between what I

811
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: think is happening in my mind, what I think I'm giving,

812
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: and what you are actually getting. You know, yeah, exactly.

813
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 3: You would have with Tiff, given the relationship you seem

814
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 3: to have, would be make all the difference between completely

815
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,720
Speaker 3: continuing to misunderstand if you could hash it out with her,

816
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 3: that's the magic.

817
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've had our moments, We've never have we.

818
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 3: Turned into like team counseling, couples counseling from our original

819
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 3: on the couch therapy for you.

820
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: Only well, well, she's got a boy who's much better

821
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: than me. So it's definitely not couples. He's a nine,

822
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 1: I'm a four. I'm I'm working up the difference between

823
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: like this, you know, tap puppy stuff. But I always

824
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: feel like I'm a bit self loathing, and when I

825
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 1: do something well, I don't want to say to the

826
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: world world I did something well, because I think when

827
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: I was young, I got shut down a lot, right,

828
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: so I recognized that I did a good thing or

829
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: that was a good outcome, you know, But it's almost

830
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: like I don't want to tell anyone if people find

831
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: out that's cool, And because we can be so critical

832
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: of others. And I when I was young, like in

833
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 1: my twenties, I built a company and it did quite well,

834
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: and that seemed to bother a lot of people, Like

835
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: you know how everyone cheers you on in Australia, some

836
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: people till you succeed. They fucking I'm like, okay, sorry,

837
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: it did well. You know, I'll keep it to myself.

838
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: More So, there's that, you know, like not wanting to

839
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: be the self loaver, of course, or not wanting to

840
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: self sabotage, but at the same time being aware what's

841
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: that other thing as it shout and freuden that where

842
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: people want to see you fail. They celebrate failia and

843
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: your pipe like that's real, that's real, that's real.

844
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 3: And I don't think that's any worse in Australia than

845
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 3: anywhere else in the world. But I get your point

846
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 3: about how do we find a way that we can

847
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 3: share our successes in a way that's genuine and authentic

848
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 3: and not feeling like we have to hide our another

849
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 3: whatever the other class she is, hide our light under

850
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 3: a bushel or whatever. But also not feel that there's

851
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 3: this constant rates towards self promotion because I feel like,

852
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 3: I don't know about you, but this self promotion that

853
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 3: is now required on social.

854
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 4: Media, it makes me feel very h It's just.

855
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,720
Speaker 3: People constantly like and thank you everyone for this comment,

856
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 3: and I feel pressed to do it because we're encouraged

857
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: to do it professionally promote our stuff and promote our students' work.

858
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 4: But I feel like, ifever I look on LinkedIn, it

859
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 4: just is too much.

860
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 3: So what's the balance between people being so self you know,

861
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 3: so self aware and constantly promoting their new business and

862
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 3: we're so great and look at how we did our

863
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 3: remodeling and we're so amazing, versus being able to genuinely

864
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 3: say this was a success and I'm proud of this

865
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 3: thing that I built, and not have people be negative.

866
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 3: I mean, there's some negativity that's going to come from comparison.

867
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 3: Right If you did well with your business, some people

868
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 3: read that as.

869
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 4: And I didn't do well enough with mine. I am

870
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 4: not a success.

871
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 3: And there's part of that that you have to just

872
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 3: let go because you can't control other people's reactions to you.

873
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 3: You just have to have your own authentic reactions of

874
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 3: what you did and let go of the fact that people,

875
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 3: as you said, evaluating through their own prism and particularly

876
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 3: through own prism of how they feel.

877
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:33,879
Speaker 4: You'll probably notice that the people who.

878
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 3: Are most encouraging our people themselves are pretty confident and

879
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 3: happy where they are, and they're like, great job, Greg,

880
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 3: that's really cool. And people who are a little more

881
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 3: insecure tend to feel like, oh, this is a real

882
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 3: indictment of me and what I haven't done, so that's

883
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 3: not cool and shut up about it. So I think

884
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 3: to some extent, you let that process go and know

885
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 3: that everyone has their own things that are working through.

886
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 3: But yet it is unfortunate if you feel like you

887
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 3: can do something and be not want to be excited

888
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 3: about it because you feel that everyone's going to be

889
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 3: really negatively, negatively react to that.

890
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, having said that, I have a lot of

891
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: support now and I'm very grateful. But I think what

892
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: is funny what you're talking about people basically beating their

893
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: chest on social media is the irony is that trying

894
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: to impress people is wildly unimpressive. It's like, I know

895
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: what you think, you think you're doing, but you're not

896
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:29,280
Speaker 1: the opposite.

897
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 3: So people are out there just doing their thing and

898
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 3: not beating their chest as much.

899
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 1: Right. I always say to people, don't tell me, show

900
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: me if you're awesome, we'll figure it out.

901
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 4: We'll figure it out, we'll see it do awesome things.

902
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 3: I know there's people in my school and friends that

903
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 3: I am wildly impressed with and are very little chest beating.

904
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:48,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

905
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: So also, I see you're the editor in chief of

906
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: the British Journal of Clinical Psychology. Is that still you?

907
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: You still doing that?

908
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 4: Nope?

909
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 3: I finished that up last year and now another Australian,

910
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 3: Bethany Wooton, is the editor and cheap so that was

911
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 3: a fantastic opportunity.

912
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 4: I did that for six years and now it's kind

913
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 4: of it's kind of cool.

914
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 3: I'm trying to see, like what's filling the gap, What

915
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 3: new things am I getting involved with which has been fun?

916
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 1: How good are you relaxing?

917
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 4: I'm pretty good.

918
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm not I'm not the worst at

919
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 3: it relative to some of my peers. Yeah, I really

920
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 3: like just like lying on the floor and reading my books,

921
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 3: So I'm not too bad at it.

922
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: I want to finish with just a chat around anxiety.

923
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: I don't want to ask you a specific question. I

924
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: just want you to riff on anxiety for me, because

925
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: I feel like it's it's it's a thing, but it's

926
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 1: kind of a lot of things, and I think we

927
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: all experience it to some level, you know, from you know,

928
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: minor discomfort or distraction to complete overwhelming dysfunction. Could you just,

929
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, talk to us about it for a

930
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: minute or two.

931
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was a very very general opener.

932
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 3: I guess I'm thinking of I don't know if you

933
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 3: came across this in your studies, but the York's Dodson

934
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 3: curve and not being afraid of anxiety, knowing that a

935
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 3: little bit of anxiety can motivate you and kind of

936
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 3: allowing yourself to feel a little bit anxious and know

937
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 3: that that's also excitement and novelty and interest. And also

938
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 3: then when it gets too overwhelming, that you know you

939
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 3: don't have to manage everything on your own. That we

940
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 3: have community and connection. That's how humans have always operated.

941
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 3: It's not a failing to talk to your friends, to

942
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 3: seek out social connection, to seek out therapy if it's

943
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 3: really bad.

944
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 4: So yeah, I would I would say that that's for me.

945
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 3: The main things is and knowing that there's a normal

946
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 3: level that it's an evolutionarily evolved emotion that keeps us

947
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 3: protected and allows us to register novelty and try new things.

948
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 4: And learn things and notice big threats in our environment.

949
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 3: And so that's the balance, is noticing when it's just

950
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 3: the anxiety is tough living as a human in the

951
00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:59,760
Speaker 3: world today and adulting and all those things.

952
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 4: So it's okay to feel some levels of that and just.

953
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 3: Accepting that, and it's just are you feeling that anxiety

954
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 3: and still doing what you want to do?

955
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 4: Are you paralyzed by it?

956
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 3: So that's the question I'll be asking, is like, it's

957
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 3: okay to feel anxious.

958
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 4: You're about to give a big.

959
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 3: Speech, you're doing a podcast or whatever, you feel anxious.

960
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 4: I'm learning piggleball.

961
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 3: I don't know what I'm doing, but as soon as

962
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 3: it prevents me from doing things that I want to do,

963
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 3: and I'm not going for a run and I'm not

964
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 3: doing a podcast and I'm not doing things, and it's

965
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 3: a problem, and it's like really getting some support around that.

966
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: One of the things I do a bit is over

967
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: the last twenty years, because I do a lot of

968
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: corporate speaking, is help speakers, I guess, coach speakers. But

969
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: what's the biggest tip for me as as a Yeah,

970
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: it's really sure. Yeah, Like I think one of the

971
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: I'm not putting you in this pigeon hole because you've

972
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:58,359
Speaker 1: proven to be otherwise. But academics can struggle because they

973
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 1: feel like everything that's coming out of their mouth has

974
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 1: got to be research based, They've got to reference. It's

975
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: and it's very very they speak a language that most

976
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 1: audiences don't speak. So I say, before we even think

977
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 1: about your data, your slides, your content, your messaging, think

978
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: about how do I build rapport, connection, understanding and respect

979
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: with this group of humans who aren't me, who don't

980
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: think like me, who don't have my background.

981
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 4: That's great advice.

982
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like if your content is awesome, but you, as

983
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: a human on the stage are unrelatable and you can't

984
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 1: tell a story and you can't be a bit a

985
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: little bit. You don't need to be a stand up comic.

986
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: But you know, like I'll walk up to a room

987
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: and I've literally just been introduced, and the first thing

988
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: I might say is put up your hand if you're

989
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: an overthinker, and everyone goes, oh god, they put up

990
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: their hand, and I go, how's that going for you?

991
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: Shit house? Right? And they laugh. Now I've got everyone

992
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: putting up their hand, I've got people reflecting on how

993
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: they are, and I've got them committing and admitting something

994
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,919
Speaker 1: and then we just go from there. So being able

995
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: to build rapport and trust quickly really matters. And like

996
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: it's not like in academia where it's all about the information,

997
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: the data, the evidence. Of course, how well you present

998
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: that is secondary. But in a corporate environment or where

999
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: you're getting paid, let's be honest, a shitload of money

1000
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: to have an impact and then bug her off, like

1001
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: you need to be able to. I call it edutainment,

1002
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 1: where you need to be able at the end of

1003
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: the day. If I was coaching you, I would hope

1004
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: that you would walk off stage and they would say,

1005
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 1: she's amazing. Can we get her back? Like it doesn't

1006
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: need to be too complicated? Yeah, you know so, And

1007
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: I mean I started. I did my first paid I

1008
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 1: wrote about this recently, my first paid speaking gig at

1009
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: twenty six, which was thirty six years ago. I'm sixty

1010
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: two and I got paid fifty bucks. I talked to

1011
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: twenty blokes in the timbiard in their lunch room. I

1012
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: spoke for thirty minutes. I prepared for three weeks. I

1013
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: was fucking horrible. They hated me, and I.

1014
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 4: Loved it, And I'm.

1015
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,720
Speaker 1: Like, I know I can do this right, But whatever

1016
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:22,280
Speaker 1: it is, whether it's research.

1017
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 4: Very resilient response, I love that.

1018
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: I loved it and I went because I knew that

1019
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: I could do it. I knew I couldn't do it

1020
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: tomorrow or next month.

1021
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 4: But you had a vision where you would get there.

1022
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and to be able to you know, go

1023
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: all right, well, I'm crap at this. But whenever we

1024
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: start something new, where crap. Where the white belt? Where

1025
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: the metaphoric white belt in the room, you know, in

1026
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 1: a martial arts kind of metaphor, and so how do

1027
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 1: I It's like when I started my research, I hadn't

1028
00:51:54,760 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: studied for twenty five years or no, about twenty years,

1029
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 1: and I was terrified. I was inept. I was terrified.

1030
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,280
Speaker 1: I couldn't understand what I was reading. I didn't understand

1031
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: the language. I was sitting in a room at Monash.

1032
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: I was sitting in my cubicle with about fifteen bloody,

1033
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 1: uh genius twenty three year olds. It was like bring

1034
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 1: your fucking granddad to work day. I couldn't have been

1035
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: less suited, right, But you go, well, this is the

1036
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: worst I'll be. Yeah, that's the worst I'll be. You know.

1037
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 4: That's how it's so nice to be able to start

1038
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 4: something new.

1039
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 3: There's something so good about something brand new, and if

1040
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 3: you cannot let your fear or negativity stop you, and

1041
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 3: you can just see it like as you said, this

1042
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 3: is the worst I'm ever going to be, And good

1043
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 3: on me for trying something new. I don't care if

1044
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 3: I'm good at it yet, I just amn't getting out there.

1045
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: And I think for people from say TIFF's age forty

1046
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: ish onwards, especially fifty and sixty, I'm not telling any

1047
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: of them what to do, But I think it's highly

1048
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:07,240
Speaker 1: advantageous to put yourself in situations where you have to learn,

1049
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 1: you have to evolve, you need to adapt and develop

1050
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: new skills and understanding and insight and self awareness, like

1051
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: because it's so fucking important for your brain. And as

1052
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: I've watch so many people age unnecessarily. My undergrad is

1053
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,959
Speaker 1: in exercise physiology, right, so as I watch so many

1054
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: people age biologically, cognitively and behaviorally and at a rate that.

1055
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,280
Speaker 3: They don't need to, yeah, exactly, I mean I also

1056
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,839
Speaker 3: feel like just that feeling of being incompetence and getting

1057
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 3: comfortable with it. The other thing I do is I

1058
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 3: do surf life saving and I'm not a particularly good

1059
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 3: life saver, but I did the course and now I

1060
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 3: go out on the beaches and I patrol. And I've

1061
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 3: only done a few patrols, and I feel like I

1062
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 3: never know what the hell I'm doing, And how do

1063
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 3: we watch these radios?

1064
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 4: I don't know how to make the radio calls. I'm

1065
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:55,359
Speaker 4: trying to learn.

1066
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 3: But I've met really lovely people, and I feel like

1067
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 3: each time I go a couple new things and I'm

1068
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 3: still those shittiest life saver probably there, and luckily there's

1069
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 3: a team of amazing people, so if something happens, I

1070
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 3: don't feel nervous.

1071
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 4: But it's been good. I just kind of sitting with.

1072
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 3: That feeling of oh, I feel it pretty competent most

1073
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 3: of the time at work, or at least respect it

1074
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:16,760
Speaker 3: or whatever, and then to go in this other context

1075
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 3: where just lowman on the totem pole.

1076
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 4: So I think you're right.

1077
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 3: It's good for you in terms of you know, aging

1078
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:25,919
Speaker 3: and your brain, but also socially. I think I would

1079
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 3: never talk to this random bloke who's doing on my

1080
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,879
Speaker 3: shift on the patrol, but it's great to talk to him,

1081
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 3: and he's really interesting. So I'm meeting people all the time,

1082
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 3: which I wouldn't do otherwise.

1083
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: And how many people do you meet that you're like, Oh,

1084
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: you are so interesting, you are so smart, you know

1085
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 1: so many things I don't know. Yeah, let's chat, I Jess.

1086
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: Is there anything you want to publish or publish anything

1087
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,320
Speaker 1: you want to promote or share with our audience? Website, books,

1088
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 1: anything like that, social media?

1089
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, not particularly.

1090
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 3: You can google me and OC and I do have

1091
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 3: a website with some resources.

1092
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 4: If there's something concerning you, it.

1093
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 3: Will have links to other places with vetted information for

1094
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,359
Speaker 3: OCD and and things that are going on.

1095
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 4: If you're a therapist to treat so OCD and you.

1096
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 3: Want to get in touch, we do have a website

1097
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 3: that helps connect people who are looking for treatment with therapists.

1098
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 3: So feel free to google my name, Jessica Grisham and

1099
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 3: OCD and you and s W and you'll and you'll

1100
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 3: pull up my page and you can email me.

1101
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: You're the best. I absolutely love that.

1102
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,280
Speaker 4: That was so fun and I appreciate your advice.

1103
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you.

1104
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 3: I'm going to take on toward all your public speaking

1105
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 3: advice too for my next my next talk.

1106
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll kill it. We'll saygodbarfair. But did you enjoy

1107
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: that tip?

1108
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 4: Loved it? Loved it?

1109
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: Smarty pants, smarty pants with charisma. That's a unicorn right there. Hi, folks,

1110
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that. Appreciate you. Don't forget. Go

1111
00:55:56,280 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 1: to the project Facebook page if you want feedback, small

1112
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 1: little community of about four thousand people there who interact

1113
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 1: and have fun and ask questions. If you want to

1114
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: suggest a guest, do that. See you later,