1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,330 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,420 --> 00:00:09,480 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Last week, federal parliament passed some of the most 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,340 Sean Aylmer: significant reforms to Australia's industrial relations legislation in years. It 4 00:00:14,340 --> 00:00:17,159 Sean Aylmer: sets minimum standards for gig economy workers, as well as 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,970 Sean Aylmer: defining a specific pathway for casual workers to convert to 6 00:00:20,970 --> 00:00:24,120 Sean Aylmer: permanent employment. But the other change, the one that sparked 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,450 Sean Aylmer: the biggest response from business, is the right to disconnect. 8 00:00:27,719 --> 00:00:29,969 Sean Aylmer: Under the new laws, workers will effectively be able to 9 00:00:29,969 --> 00:00:34,470 Sean Aylmer: ignore bosses' calls, texts, and emails after hours. Innes Willox 10 00:00:34,500 --> 00:00:37,440 Sean Aylmer: is the chief executive of Australian Industry Group at Peak 11 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,320 Sean Aylmer: National Employer Association. Innes, welcome to Fear and Greed. 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,010 Innes Willox: Hi, Sean. How are you? Good to talk to you. Interesting times. 13 00:00:44,429 --> 00:00:47,699 Sean Aylmer: Sure are, sure are. What is it about the right 14 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:50,369 Sean Aylmer: to disconnect that has your members so upset? 15 00:00:51,210 --> 00:00:54,059 Innes Willox: There's a couple of things, Sean. One is, it really came 16 00:00:54,059 --> 00:00:58,080 Innes Willox: out of the blue. It came from nowhere. Literally a 17 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,040 Innes Willox: very last minute addition to the conversation with the government 18 00:01:02,099 --> 00:01:05,309 Innes Willox: and with the crossbench. And there has been really no 19 00:01:05,309 --> 00:01:09,839 Innes Willox: time to work it through, to consult, to really analyze 20 00:01:09,839 --> 00:01:11,519 Innes Willox: what does it mean, what does it mean in a 21 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,120 Innes Willox: workplace context. So part one is it came from nowhere. 22 00:01:15,180 --> 00:01:21,600 Innes Willox: Part two, already enshrined in many awards is arrangements around 23 00:01:21,660 --> 00:01:24,869 Innes Willox: connecting out of what you might call regular work hours. 24 00:01:24,870 --> 00:01:28,799 Innes Willox: And they're across a whole range of industries and professions. So 25 00:01:28,799 --> 00:01:31,440 Innes Willox: it's already covered off. And part three, if there's a 26 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,580 Innes Willox: problem, there's already a pathway for intervention by the Fair 27 00:01:35,580 --> 00:01:39,869 Innes Willox: Work Commission. All that is already enshrined. So this is 28 00:01:39,870 --> 00:01:42,870 Innes Willox: a new complexity for business, a new complication. And of 29 00:01:42,870 --> 00:01:47,549 Innes Willox: course business is worried about how it will be reacted 30 00:01:47,549 --> 00:01:51,750 Innes Willox: to both by employees and then by regulators as well, 31 00:01:52,290 --> 00:01:54,780 Innes Willox: and by other employers. So this is just a whole 32 00:01:54,780 --> 00:01:58,289 Innes Willox: lot of uncertainty, brought in at the last minute, that 33 00:01:58,290 --> 00:02:01,139 Innes Willox: nobody's really had time to work through. And there are 34 00:02:01,139 --> 00:02:05,340 Innes Willox: real fears around consequences. In worst case scenarios, Sean, I 35 00:02:05,340 --> 00:02:07,920 Innes Willox: think most employers recognize that they've got a pretty good 36 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,460 Innes Willox: relationship with their employees and they can work it out, 37 00:02:11,460 --> 00:02:13,320 Innes Willox: but there's always going to be those ones at the 38 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:14,700 Innes Willox: edges that really worry them. 39 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,820 Sean Aylmer: I hear what you're saying. Why did the government do 40 00:02:17,820 --> 00:02:20,340 Sean Aylmer: it then? Because effectively you are saying there's no need 41 00:02:20,340 --> 00:02:24,149 Sean Aylmer: for it. In fact, there's a recourse already in legislation. 42 00:02:24,359 --> 00:02:26,490 Sean Aylmer: Why do you think the government suddenly did it? 43 00:02:26,970 --> 00:02:29,850 Innes Willox: It's pretty simple. It was a deal with the Greens 44 00:02:29,850 --> 00:02:33,090 Innes Willox: to get the Greens' support to support the rest of 45 00:02:33,090 --> 00:02:37,410 Innes Willox: the IR legislation. I think the minister was very upfront 46 00:02:37,410 --> 00:02:40,500 Innes Willox: about that, he needed the numbers to get a deal 47 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:43,080 Innes Willox: done, to get the rest of the elements of his 48 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,130 Innes Willox: legislation done. He made the point that it had been 49 00:02:47,130 --> 00:02:50,730 Innes Willox: brought up by the Greens a year ago, in passing, 50 00:02:50,730 --> 00:02:53,849 Innes Willox: nobody sort of took it seriously. But then he suddenly 51 00:02:53,849 --> 00:02:56,009 Innes Willox: picked it up and ran with it. So it was, 52 00:02:56,758 --> 00:03:00,000 Innes Willox: in our mind, a purely political exercise to get some 53 00:03:00,060 --> 00:03:05,370 Innes Willox: legislation through without much regard or investigation of the consequences. 54 00:03:06,210 --> 00:03:08,700 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So it looks like the legislation will get through. 55 00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:11,429 Sean Aylmer: One thing I've learned, reporting on business for the last 56 00:03:11,429 --> 00:03:16,109 Sean Aylmer: 20 or 30 years, is the one thing worse than bad legislation is 57 00:03:16,109 --> 00:03:19,680 Sean Aylmer: uncertainty around bad legislation. We've had the opposition leader, Peter 58 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:24,180 Sean Aylmer: Dutton, come out and say he'll repeal the laws. Does 59 00:03:24,180 --> 00:03:27,209 Sean Aylmer: that help the debate, given that they will become laws, 60 00:03:27,210 --> 00:03:29,999 Sean Aylmer: but suddenly at the next election business has to contend 61 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:31,620 Sean Aylmer: with the idea that they're going to be repealed? 62 00:03:32,549 --> 00:03:35,189 Innes Willox: Well, we've got to jump a couple steps ahead to 63 00:03:35,190 --> 00:03:38,310 Innes Willox: where Peter Dutton's got to on repeal. So first of 64 00:03:38,310 --> 00:03:40,950 Innes Willox: all, we've got to work out exactly what we're dealing 65 00:03:40,980 --> 00:03:43,920 Innes Willox: with here and how it is interpreted. And there's that 66 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,740 Innes Willox: great legal word thrown into the midst of this, which 67 00:03:46,740 --> 00:03:51,689 Innes Willox: is reasonable. So everyone should act reasonably. And in this 68 00:03:51,690 --> 00:03:54,570 Innes Willox: context we're going to find out what reasonable means. So 69 00:03:54,780 --> 00:03:57,570 Innes Willox: we've got to go through that process first. I think 70 00:03:57,570 --> 00:03:59,730 Innes Willox: where you're getting to with that question, Sean, is a 71 00:03:59,730 --> 00:04:02,730 Innes Willox: good one, is that for the first time, perhaps since 72 00:04:02,730 --> 00:04:07,380 Innes Willox: about 2007, workplace relations might figure prominently in the next 73 00:04:07,380 --> 00:04:10,379 Innes Willox: election one way or the other, and we might have 74 00:04:10,379 --> 00:04:13,830 Innes Willox: a big debate around aspects of that. But if it's 75 00:04:13,830 --> 00:04:16,800 Innes Willox: bad law and it works out badly, it's better that 76 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:18,839 Innes Willox: we get rid of it. That would be the way 77 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:20,159 Innes Willox: that employers would look at it. 78 00:04:21,300 --> 00:04:23,639 Sean Aylmer: What do you think your members are most worried about 79 00:04:23,910 --> 00:04:26,729 Sean Aylmer: in terms of this right to disconnect? Is it a... 80 00:04:26,790 --> 00:04:28,919 Sean Aylmer: Woodside, the head of HR from Woodside was out in 81 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:30,839 Sean Aylmer: the last couple of days saying, " Hey, what if you 82 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,960 Sean Aylmer: work across time zones, for example? It's not very practical 83 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,620 Sean Aylmer: in that instance." Now I appreciate Woodside's a very, very 84 00:04:37,620 --> 00:04:40,589 Sean Aylmer: large company, but a lot of your members, what are 85 00:04:40,589 --> 00:04:43,289 Sean Aylmer: the intricacies that they're worried about mostly? 86 00:04:43,950 --> 00:04:45,599 Innes Willox: Well, there's quite a few, and that is one of 87 00:04:45,599 --> 00:04:51,360 Innes Willox: them, that is that businesses work both nationally and internationally. 88 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,290 Innes Willox: And nationally now we're in summer, so there's a variety 89 00:04:55,290 --> 00:04:58,558 Innes Willox: of time zones across the country already. So what it 90 00:04:58,559 --> 00:05:01,139 Innes Willox: would mean, potentially, is that someone at two o'clock in 91 00:05:01,139 --> 00:05:04,319 Innes Willox: Perth needing something out of someone in Melbourne where it's 92 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,020 Innes Willox: five o'clock or just after, and then not being able 93 00:05:07,020 --> 00:05:09,240 Innes Willox: to get hold of them, holding up the whole process. 94 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,180 Innes Willox: That's one thing. And that can be just within a company 95 00:05:12,180 --> 00:05:14,820 Innes Willox: or it can be dealing with customers or suppliers as 96 00:05:14,820 --> 00:05:18,930 Innes Willox: well. So there's all of that element involved as well. 97 00:05:19,170 --> 00:05:23,159 Innes Willox: The second is the practicality. Coming back to that great 98 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,700 Innes Willox: word, reasonable, what will be judged to be reasonable? So 99 00:05:26,730 --> 00:05:30,060 Innes Willox: if you need to get a submission finished, a pitch 100 00:05:30,060 --> 00:05:32,730 Innes Willox: finished, are you able to contact someone to verify some 101 00:05:32,730 --> 00:05:36,928 Innes Willox: information outside of, what you might call regular hours, at 102 00:05:36,928 --> 00:05:40,860 Innes Willox: the last minute? What happens in scenarios around aged care? 103 00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:43,500 Innes Willox: We've got a lot of members in aged care, when 104 00:05:43,500 --> 00:05:46,589 Innes Willox: you need to check on a patient's medication from earlier 105 00:05:46,589 --> 00:05:48,150 Innes Willox: in the morning and you just go back and make 106 00:05:48,150 --> 00:05:50,729 Innes Willox: the check with the nurse who was on duty at 107 00:05:50,730 --> 00:05:53,219 Innes Willox: the time. You could pretty much write a book about 108 00:05:53,219 --> 00:05:57,210 Innes Willox: the scenarios. So from talking to government people, they say, " 109 00:05:57,270 --> 00:06:00,000 Innes Willox: Oh, well there's obviously going to be clearly reasonable things 110 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,460 Innes Willox: like when the fire alarm goes off and only one 111 00:06:02,460 --> 00:06:06,120 Innes Willox: person's got the code, then they should be contacted." But 112 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,729 Innes Willox: there is now the great uncertainty that they might not 113 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,950 Innes Willox: want to be contacted or just might not pick up 114 00:06:10,950 --> 00:06:14,999 Innes Willox: the phone and might not have any consequence of not 115 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,059 Innes Willox: doing that. That's the real concern. And that then leads 116 00:06:18,059 --> 00:06:23,400 Innes Willox: to breakdown within workplace, workplace harmony, workplace understandings, real or 117 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,870 Innes Willox: tacit. And it also leads to the potential for conflict, 118 00:06:27,870 --> 00:06:30,899 Innes Willox: which has normally just been worked out as a matter 119 00:06:30,900 --> 00:06:33,750 Innes Willox: of course, and it just introduces a whole new element 120 00:06:33,750 --> 00:06:36,570 Innes Willox: into it. So there's the practical, and then there's the 121 00:06:36,570 --> 00:06:40,020 Innes Willox: overview in terms of workplace relations as such. 122 00:06:40,650 --> 00:06:42,359 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me Innes, we'll be back in a minute. 123 00:06:48,330 --> 00:06:52,080 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Innes Willox, Australian Industry Group 124 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,790 Sean Aylmer: chief executive. And flexibility, so I used to run the 125 00:06:56,790 --> 00:07:00,450 Sean Aylmer: newsrooms at Fairfax and I remember negotiating with unions that 126 00:07:00,450 --> 00:07:03,330 Sean Aylmer: flexibility was everything. And I think for both employer and 127 00:07:03,330 --> 00:07:07,859 Sean Aylmer: employee, you actually need to help each other out. That's 128 00:07:07,860 --> 00:07:09,178 Sean Aylmer: the thing that I don't get about this. Do you 129 00:07:09,178 --> 00:07:13,170 Sean Aylmer: think that this takes flexibility backwards 'cause it's more of 130 00:07:13,170 --> 00:07:15,750 Sean Aylmer: a work- to- rule style environment? 131 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,740 Innes Willox: Well, it certainly does, and that's another great concern which 132 00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:22,620 Innes Willox: comes to the understandings, it's the give and take. So 133 00:07:22,620 --> 00:07:26,400 Innes Willox: for employees, after a lot of flexibility, now we're in 134 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,149 Innes Willox: a world of flexibility in terms of working arrangements, work 135 00:07:30,150 --> 00:07:34,320 Innes Willox: from home, taking some time off to look after the 136 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,800 Innes Willox: kids or to take them to after- school sport, go 137 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,730 Innes Willox: to a medical appointment. All of those things, employees and 138 00:07:41,730 --> 00:07:46,169 Innes Willox: employers work this out 99% of time. I need half 139 00:07:46,170 --> 00:07:48,119 Innes Willox: an hour here, I'll give you half an hour back 140 00:07:48,119 --> 00:07:51,210 Innes Willox: there. Or even not, we don't even worry about it, 141 00:07:51,210 --> 00:07:54,180 Innes Willox: it's all fine, it's all part of all getting on. 142 00:07:54,810 --> 00:07:58,710 Innes Willox: So what this is really at its core, is an anti- 143 00:07:58,710 --> 00:08:03,359 Innes Willox: flexibility, anti- productivity measure because what it will do it 144 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,860 Innes Willox: will drive people at the edges. And there's obviously particular 145 00:08:07,860 --> 00:08:11,910 Innes Willox: concern about how younger people will take up this right 146 00:08:11,970 --> 00:08:15,929 Innes Willox: as well and utilize it in particular. But it takes 147 00:08:15,929 --> 00:08:19,830 Innes Willox: away the ability for people to work around and work 148 00:08:19,830 --> 00:08:22,109 Innes Willox: with each other to get things done in a timely 149 00:08:22,109 --> 00:08:26,340 Innes Willox: fashion. We're going to go back to potentially enormous rigidity. 150 00:08:26,820 --> 00:08:29,130 Innes Willox: You work nine to five, so you work nine to 151 00:08:29,130 --> 00:08:32,670 Innes Willox: five. And at the most extreme you're going to get 152 00:08:32,670 --> 00:08:35,520 Innes Willox: back to punch clocks in some areas and things like 153 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,990 Innes Willox: that. So what it has, I think, inadvertently done, is 154 00:08:39,990 --> 00:08:43,470 Innes Willox: strip away quite a few years of work that's gone 155 00:08:43,470 --> 00:08:47,880 Innes Willox: into making workplaces more flexible, not perfect, but more flexible. 156 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,130 Innes Willox: And we're going to see more rigidity come into it 157 00:08:50,490 --> 00:08:54,240 Innes Willox: because once one person takes up this 'right,' I'll put 158 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,210 Innes Willox: that in inverted commas, then you can expect others to 159 00:08:57,270 --> 00:08:57,780 Innes Willox: as well. 160 00:08:58,980 --> 00:09:01,920 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Another piece of legislation that will pass, is the 161 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,670 Sean Aylmer: shift between casual and permanent and the flow from a 162 00:09:05,670 --> 00:09:10,709 Sean Aylmer: casual worker to become a permanent. What's your take on 163 00:09:10,710 --> 00:09:13,889 Sean Aylmer: that? Is it needed? What's the pros and cons of 164 00:09:13,889 --> 00:09:14,339 Sean Aylmer: that one? 165 00:09:15,030 --> 00:09:18,960 Innes Willox: Well, I hesitate to use the old Irish joke, Sean, 166 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,670 Innes Willox: but if you want to get somewhere, you wouldn't start 167 00:09:20,670 --> 00:09:23,820 Innes Willox: from here. And where the government started, from when they 168 00:09:23,820 --> 00:09:27,900 Innes Willox: were looking at casuals, is a whole lot worse than 169 00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:30,059 Innes Willox: where we've ended up. So I think we'll make that 170 00:09:30,059 --> 00:09:32,458 Innes Willox: point. But where we've ended up is still in a 171 00:09:32,460 --> 00:09:37,019 Innes Willox: pretty difficult place. Through the high court's findings in 2021, 172 00:09:37,020 --> 00:09:40,290 Innes Willox: it was laid down that once you were employed as 173 00:09:40,290 --> 00:09:43,770 Innes Willox: a casual, you were engaged as a casual and you 174 00:09:43,770 --> 00:09:46,889 Innes Willox: were paid as a casual. That was the understanding. It 175 00:09:46,889 --> 00:09:49,650 Innes Willox: was very clear, very well laid out. And when you 176 00:09:49,650 --> 00:09:54,240 Innes Willox: were a casual, you got the loadings, the 25% loading, 177 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,100 Innes Willox: in exchange for not having other benefits. And there was 178 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:04,228 Innes Willox: flexibility, more broadly, around how you could work and over 179 00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:07,139 Innes Willox: a long period of time. What we now have is 180 00:10:07,139 --> 00:10:10,949 Innes Willox: a fairly simple, straightforward view of the world. We now 181 00:10:10,949 --> 00:10:14,670 Innes Willox: have over 30 pages of regulations that an employer has 182 00:10:14,670 --> 00:10:17,189 Innes Willox: to go through before they will now be able to 183 00:10:17,190 --> 00:10:21,389 Innes Willox: engage someone as a casual. It also means that someone 184 00:10:21,389 --> 00:10:25,500 Innes Willox: can't be put on a regular casual shift for a 185 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:28,259 Innes Willox: reasonable period of time or else in case that is 186 00:10:28,260 --> 00:10:32,458 Innes Willox: interpreted as basically being a permanent job. So we have 187 00:10:32,460 --> 00:10:35,069 Innes Willox: concerns on a whole range of front. Employers have concerns 188 00:10:35,070 --> 00:10:38,429 Innes Willox: around not being able to have certainty themselves around a 189 00:10:38,429 --> 00:10:41,909 Innes Willox: casual workforce that they need to engage for seasonal or 190 00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:46,230 Innes Willox: surge reasons. Not being able to employ uni students, let's 191 00:10:46,230 --> 00:10:49,139 Innes Willox: pick an example, working at Macca's, who want to work 192 00:10:49,140 --> 00:10:52,020 Innes Willox: on a Thursday night and a Saturday afternoon because that 193 00:10:52,020 --> 00:10:54,750 Innes Willox: fits in with their work- life balance, and they want 194 00:10:54,750 --> 00:10:56,699 Innes Willox: to do that for the whole year. They're not going 195 00:10:56,700 --> 00:10:58,949 Innes Willox: to be able to be employed like that now going 196 00:10:58,950 --> 00:11:03,419 Innes Willox: forward because you can't have consistent shifts. So there's the 197 00:11:03,420 --> 00:11:07,980 Innes Willox: regulatory burden on business that comes into play here, and 198 00:11:07,980 --> 00:11:12,809 Innes Willox: there's the lack of certainty and, if necessary, flexibility in 199 00:11:12,809 --> 00:11:15,900 Innes Willox: some cases for employees who want to be engaged as 200 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:19,139 Innes Willox: casuals to work with that. This is another move towards 201 00:11:19,139 --> 00:11:23,939 Innes Willox: rigidity within the workplace. And it takes away options, and 202 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,610 Innes Willox: we don't lightly say, but we mean it, when we 203 00:11:26,610 --> 00:11:30,120 Innes Willox: say, unfortunately for employees, this is going to create more 204 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,000 Innes Willox: insecure work because they're not going to be able to 205 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,570 Innes Willox: have the security of long- term casual shifts, which they've 206 00:11:36,570 --> 00:11:40,980 Innes Willox: perhaps had in the past. Unnecessary, unwanted, and unwarranted. 207 00:11:42,029 --> 00:11:43,440 Sean Aylmer: We are way over time, but I do have to 208 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,828 Sean Aylmer: ask you about the legislation around gig workers. Is that 209 00:11:46,860 --> 00:11:49,740 Sean Aylmer: a decent protection for gig workers? 210 00:11:50,670 --> 00:11:53,910 Innes Willox: Well, Sean, we made the point before the last election, 211 00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:56,939 Innes Willox: and we represent pretty much the whole range of the 212 00:11:56,940 --> 00:11:59,969 Innes Willox: gig sector economy, that there needed to be some regulation 213 00:11:59,969 --> 00:12:03,208 Innes Willox: here. There was recognition of that, so that there was 214 00:12:03,210 --> 00:12:06,540 Innes Willox: a framework in place. And there's been a lot of 215 00:12:06,540 --> 00:12:12,450 Innes Willox: conversations between gig workers, representatives and the gig companies around 216 00:12:12,450 --> 00:12:19,260 Innes Willox: things like insurances, around safety, around the structures of work. 217 00:12:20,070 --> 00:12:24,870 Innes Willox: The conversations have got to a point where the gig 218 00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:27,960 Innes Willox: companies can accept it, but there needs to be more 219 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,120 Innes Willox: work, and they don't see this as being the end 220 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,969 Innes Willox: of the road in terms of trying to get this 221 00:12:32,969 --> 00:12:36,240 Innes Willox: right. It comes down to the whole conversation around what 222 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,320 Innes Willox: is employee- like? And we could do a whole podcast on employee- 223 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,319 Innes Willox: like, because part of what this legislation has done is 224 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,858 Innes Willox: it changed the entire definition of what is an employee. 225 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:52,529 Innes Willox: So of all the changes that have been made, those 226 00:12:52,529 --> 00:12:56,550 Innes Willox: to gig are probably the least egregious because there has 227 00:12:56,550 --> 00:12:59,069 Innes Willox: been a lot of consultation around it. But there needs 228 00:12:59,070 --> 00:13:01,530 Innes Willox: to be more work done, I think that's the overwhelming 229 00:13:01,530 --> 00:13:04,650 Innes Willox: view. But it's a step and a half in the right 230 00:13:04,650 --> 00:13:07,439 Innes Willox: direction and a step in the wrong direction. So we'll 231 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,230 Innes Willox: just continue to work on that in the period ahead. 232 00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:12,840 Innes Willox: But there needed to be something done. I think everyone 233 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:13,560 Innes Willox: accepted that. 234 00:13:14,190 --> 00:13:15,960 Sean Aylmer: Innes, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 235 00:13:16,590 --> 00:13:17,699 Innes Willox: Thanks, Sean. Take care. 236 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,870 Sean Aylmer: That was Innes Willox, Australian Industry Group chief executive. This 237 00:13:21,870 --> 00:13:24,389 Sean Aylmer: is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us every 238 00:13:24,389 --> 00:13:26,639 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's 239 00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:29,879 Sean Aylmer: Best Business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Have a great day.