WEBVTT - Greasy alibi | 10 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:03.960 First of all, we were just seeing the car park 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:07.120 by itself. We must have heard something because David's turned 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:14.160 off the car and we listen. Then we heard screaming. 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:19.919 My name is Wayne Nielsen, or was a policeman for 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:21.200 close on twenty years. 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:24.320 Wayne is taking us back in time to a Saturday 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:28.560 night in May nineteen eighty three. It's just past midnight 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.360 and he's patrolling the streets of Liverpool in Sydney Southwest 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:34.680 with Constable Dave Stephenson. 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:42.760 Turn the truck around to face the vehicle. I met 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:51.720 the young woman running from the vehicle, extremely distressed, clutching 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.760 her dress and saying that the guy's got a gun. 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:56.840 He's threatened to killer. 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.920 Immediately, we drew our revolvers and told him to get 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:04.680 out of the vehicle with his hands so we could 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:08.760 see them so that he was an armed He got 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:10.240 out of the vehicle and as he did so with 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.280 his hands up, his pants came down and then got 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:16.840 him to go against the vehicle. At that stage he 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:19.240 still got his hands up. After he's got his pants 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:23.840 up and with searched him looking for this gun. Dave 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:26.000 went back to speak to her while I was guarding 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:30.120 the fender Dave's then come back and said to the 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:35.160 fender that the victim has complained that you sexually assaulted her. 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:37.680 And what did the alleged offenders say. 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.720 Well, he said something in relation to she deserved it 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.040 or something like that she was only a mole That's 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.600 how he was behaving towards her at the time. At 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.000 some stage with searched the vehicle. Well, Dave searched the 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.440 vehicle was still with the truck and the victim Dave 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.360 didn't come up with anything under the seat. She lledged 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:57.040 that the weapon was under a sept that he reached 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:58.760 for it a couple of times during the assault. 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:01.840 Was a weapon foul? So did you take this man 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.720 back to the police station and did he identify himself 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:06.080 to you? 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:14.600 Yes, we found out his identity. 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:15.720 What did he say? 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:18.280 His name was Kevin Cornwall. 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:28.240 I'm Ashley Hanson and you're listening to episode ten of 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:32.680 Dear Rochelle, a podcast by True Crime Australia. This is 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:36.520 the untold story of Rochelle Charles, a twenty three year 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.720 old who was brutally murdered. Her killer has never been caught. 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.760 In your experience, how common is it to make an 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:57.960 arrest during an alleged attack. 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:00.720 Yeah, not very often. You get people in the act 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:02.799 of it, you know, breaking an as you do and 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.079 things like that, but certainly not sexual assaults. I can't 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:09.760 think of any other ones which happened at the time 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:12.960 we actually wrestled them. Basically in the act. 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:19.079 Wayne is recalling his arrest of Kevin Stephen Cornwall more 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.200 than four decades ago. Kevin, who later changed his surname 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:27.919 to Correll, became the key suspect in Rochelle's murder. You've 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.919 already heard about two other sexually motivated attacks in which 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:36.560 Kevin was charged but later acquitted. Wayne is talking about 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:40.600 a third case, in which Kevin was also acquitted. The 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.880 alleged victim is a young woman whose identity is protected. 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:49.840 She'd met Kevin at a popular Liverpool nightclub called Scaramouge. 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:52.960 We think it's important to tell you about this case 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.320 and allowed you to decide if you think it's relevant 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:00.160 to Rochelle's case. At the heart of it is he's 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.680 a young woman who found herself alone in a car 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:08.640 with Kevin. That's not in dispute. What was contested is 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.480 what happened inside Kevin's car. This is part of what 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:16.040 the alleged victim told a Sydney court when Kevin went 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.200 a trial. This is not her voice, but these are 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:19.880 her words. 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.240 Well, first he leant over and started trying to kiss 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:28.480 me and that, and that's when I said to him, 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.360 I've got a husband. And he said, you're nothing better. 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:34.680 He called me a lesbian, a tramp, and all those 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.680 sorts of things. And he said, one minute you've told 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:39.919 me you're engaged, next thing, you told me you're married. 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:41.760 I said you better leave me. 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:44.919 Alone, and he moved back and then started undoing his 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:48.599 pants and then he grabbed me by the hair and 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:50.880 I just started crying. And the more I cried, the 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.240 angrier he got. And he started slapping me in the 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.560 face and said stop crying. And then I got back 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:58.800 up and I was just sitting there, and then he 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:00.640 leant over again and grabbed me by the neck and 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.839 he says, I've got a gun underneath the front seat 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.960 if you don't come across. And all I kept on 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:08.560 thinking was this couldn't be happening. 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:10.279 I just kept. 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:12.760 Crying, and he got worse and worse, and he started 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.640 bending my neck right back and I was just sitting 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.520 there and then his eyes sort of lit up. I 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:20.720 tried to get out of the door, but it was locked, 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:22.760 so I unlocked it and I got out of the car. 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:24.480 I went to get out of the car. I was 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:26.640 screaming in everything, and he tried to start the car 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:28.760 to get away, and then I went running over to 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.680 the police truck screaming and like he pulled all the 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.240 straps down on my dress down, and then I told 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:35.920 the police he had a gun, and so they went 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:37.839 straight over to him. And then one of the policemen 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:39.640 came back over to me and I sat down in 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:41.960 the police van and he said to me, what happened, 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:43.640 and I said, he tried to kill me. 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.560 Walk began as a standard night for Constable Wayne Nielsen 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:57.159 more than forty years ago patrolling Sydney's Southwest, has stayed 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:58.680 with him to this day. 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:03.479 Well, sure, wholly upset. I mean, she just went through 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:07.400 a very traumatic time where she obviously felt her life 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.240 was threatened. She was violently sexually assaulted. 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.520 Wayne was struck by how Kevin, who was twenty seven 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.159 at the time, was acting towards the young woman. 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:20.359 Well, he was pretty offensive towards the female in his 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:25.400 language and his demeanor, and how he related to her. 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:30.080 It seems like that was a very common attitude of his, 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:30.400 you know. 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:32.720 And would it be fair to call him an extreme 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:38.120 misogynist the way that he was describing her behavior. 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:42.600 I mean a total disregard for respect of a female. 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:45.479 Kevin claims the alleged victim agreed to go for a 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.480 drive after she was denied entry to the nightclub, but 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:51.840 she claims he'd offered to give her a lift home. 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.200 Kevin says inside the cup the pair got into an 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:59.400 argument and she became upset. Kevin took the stand to 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.640 defend him. Here's part of what he told the court, 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:04.280 voiced by an actor. 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:08.160 I stopped the car at Woodward Park and told her 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:13.080 to settle down. She was crying by then, upset, and 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:15.520 we took from maybe five minutes, and she seemed to 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.240 appear to me to settle down a little bit. Then 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:21.520 I put my arm around her, and I first kissed 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:23.680 her on the cheek, and then I started kissing her 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:28.920 on the lips. She responded to that, she seemed to 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.840 settle down a little bit again, and I again put 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:36.280 my arm around her and kissed her. The response was 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:41.240 more this time that she was kissing me back. We 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.760 kissed for a while and I undone my top button 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:49.160 and my fly. She said, you fucking guys are all 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:54.800 the same, and we started an argument. She said I'm married, 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.160 I've got a husband at home something to that, and 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.840 I replied to that, you told me earlier on in 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:04.080 the evening that you'd just broken off your engagement. She 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.239 called me names, and then I called her a slut. 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.720 I think I called her a mole and teaser or something. 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:16.360 I think she said again to take her home. I 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:19.520 told her I'll drop her back up at Scaramouge. She 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.160 said I want to go home, and I said. 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.800 She said, you told me you'd said a while ago 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.360 that you'd take me home. I said that was before 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.600 you started carrying on like an idiot, and I said, 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:37.240 I'm going to drop you back up to Scaramouge. We 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.240 were arguing, as I said, and a light came up 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.160 the driveway. As it got closer, I was sewing the 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.360 police light on top of the truck and I said 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.079 something like it's the bloody copper is not to worry, 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:49.240 they'll go straight past. 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:52.280 And the police stopped and she started screaming. 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.280 Kevin denies having a gun in his car and no 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:01.000 weapons were found. A jury later found not guilty of 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:05.160 the attack. Let's return to Wayne Nielsen. I asked him, 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.840 generally speaking, how vulnerable is a woman in a car 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:10.319 with a dangerous man? 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:15.480 Extremely vulnerable? I think a lot of times females may 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:19.880 not realize how dangerous a male can be, how strong 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:20.600 and driven. 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.360 Let's bring in retired detective Damien Loon to get his 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:26.880 thoughts on this third sexual assault case. 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.439 Well, when do you look at the circumstances of how 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:32.160 he's arrested a gunpoint? It's a smoking gun brief, as 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.400 I say, you know, here he gets out of a car. 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:40.040 He's been accused of a sexual and motivated attack against 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.599 a young intoxicated woman, and he gets out of the 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:45.840 current and the cops pull him out a current gunpoint 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.360 in his pants fall down around his ankles. You know, 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:50.920 you couldn't get a better evidence. Police had enough evidence 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.160 to charge him. They would have obtained a statement from 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.520 the victim, and it would have gone up to the 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.400 district court for trial. And yet yet again, as I say, 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.560 this is the course of just just that he went under. 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:03.200 He was acquitted of most. 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.840 Matters, and now it's probably the time to tell you 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:12.280 about the first rape allegation leveled against Kevin. The year 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:16.680 was nineteen eighty and Kevin was twenty four DJing in 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:21.439 Sydney's Southwest. On this occasion, a seventeen year old told 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.480 police Kevin had offered to drive her home from a 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:28.120 Liverpool nightclub. She alleges he pulled a knife on her, 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:32.080 ordering her into the back seat, where he allegedly raped 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:38.440 her before dropping her home. Kevin was charged with rape 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.240 and two counts of indecent assault. He was committed to 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:47.600 stand trial and later acquitted of all charges for anyone 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:52.480 keeping count. That's four acquittals for sexually motivated attacks on 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:56.680 young women in the space of three years. How could 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:00.160 one man be so unlucky to be wrongly accused by 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:05.400 four different women? Not guilty and Kevin Carle were quite 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:13.520 a recurring scene in the nineteen eighties. In this investigation, 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.720 we've been trying to fill in the missing nine hours 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:20.640 from when Rochelle was last seen leaving Camden Holden to 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:24.240 when her burning body was found just after two am 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:28.320 on Friday, June eighth, two thousand and one. One of 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:32.119 the last people to see Rochelle alive was her final customer, 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:33.680 Kathy Thelander. 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:39.120 I had gone in to see Rochelle about purchasing a 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.120 vehicle off the lot, and she was her usual beautiful self, 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.280 and we spoke about it. I think I was trading 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:48.800 in a vehicle as well, which she loved, so we 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.080 spoke about that. My daughters were with me and my 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:54.280 sister was with me. I think also, you know, we 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.840 would have got there about three pooty five, and Rochelle 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:02.959 had to leave in the afternoon. She apologized, She said 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.760 she had to be somewhere and she had to leave 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.960 a little bit earlier than what she thought she would. 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.360 Did she give you any reason as to why she 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:12.720 had to leave early that day? 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.040 No, she didn't. I've thought about this. No, she didn't 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.040 give me any reason. She was very happy though, but 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:21.680 every time I saw Rachelle she was happy. 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.719 Did she take a car for a test drive with you? 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.560 What car were you looking at? And who else was 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:28.680 there with you that day? 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.800 Because I had a familiarity with Campden Hold and my 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.360 husband at the time had worked there for many years, 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:39.160 and although he had left, we still remained in close 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.000 contact with some of the people that worked there, so 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.079 I was well known to the dealership. So usually if 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.280 I liked a car, I was just allowed to take 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.680 it out myself drive it around. No, she didn't come 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:56.080 with me. There was Kevin Carell. He was there. He 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:01.319 wasn't too far away at any point of in the background, 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.559 a few met us away. He was listening to Rochelle, 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:08.199 listening to what was happening. He did seem particularly interested 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:14.000 in hearing everything that Rachelle and I were talking about, 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.240 and he wasn't too far away. And when we went 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:23.240 into the office to discuss the finance, he was definitely there, 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.760 not too far away, so he was sort of not 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.319 too far away, maybe a meter, sort of behind her 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:32.719 desk and around. Truly just think he was evesdropping. 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.120 Do you have any recollections about doing any paperwork with 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.880 Rochelle in terms of buying the car I did. 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.120 I builed out paperwork might have been done the day 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.360 before or the day before that. They said the paperwork 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:50.440 had gone missing, And I remember sitting there with Rochelle 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:54.880 and she couldn't find our paperwork, She couldn't find our 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:59.000 own application. She was asking Kevin if he'd seen them, 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.200 because they were definitely on her desk. They would have 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.360 been in a file, I'm sure, And he said no, 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:09.840 he hadn't seen them. No, they're just there. And she said, well, 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.440 they're not just there, they're gone and they were here 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.800 and he said, no, no, and they're just there. And 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:18.680 she looked at us and rolled her eyes as if 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:21.800 he was no help at all. That was when he 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:23.880 was sort of lingering. He wasn't too far away. 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.160 What was your impression of Rochelle's reaction to that? 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:31.080 She was frustrated, and I think that it made her 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:35.000 look unprofessional, which she didn't like because she was very professional. 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.720 Did you ever wonder what had happened to that paperwork 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:38.560 that you'd filled out? 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:42.280 So when I rang back early the next week for 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:47.400 the application to be processed and lodged, and that's when 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.920 they told me that I asked to speak to Rachelle, 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:56.960 and that's when they told me that Rachelle had passed away. 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.280 I think I was so shocked to hear that. I 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:04.040 did wonder why I had to basically apply for this 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.880 loan twice. A few weeks after Rochelle had passed, I 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.560 did a credit reference check on myself because it was 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.480 just it was nagging at me in my mind, and 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:21.840 that loan for that statesman had been applied for a 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:27.080 couple of times at least and then not gone ahead. 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.720 And I thought that was very strange. So the paperwork 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.880 hadn't been lost, It had actually been been lodged. 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:37.880 Do you think that Rochelle had anything to do with 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:39.680 that paperwork being lost? 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:40.920 No? 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:43.800 Why are you so confident of that? 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:44.800 I really don't think. 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:44.920 So. 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:49.040 She seemed exasperated that she couldn't find it. Kevin was 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:55.280 lase a that it couldn't be found, and no, look, 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.440 that's just a gut feeling. I doubt it very much. 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.280 And when we were out on a lot, I could 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:06.000 see he was watching her again, and I thought to 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:10.280 myself at the time, I think he had a little 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.440 crash on her. And the way he did used to 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:14.960 watch Rochelle, I can picture him now, just sort of 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.360 like leering at her at the corner of his eye. 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:23.160 I didn't like it, and she seemed quite oblivious. 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.320 Both Rochelle and her boss Kevin were last sighted at 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:33.000 Camden Holden on the night in question. It's June seven, 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:37.280 a winter's night in the historic Australian country town of Camden. 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:40.400 This time of year, the sun begins to set just 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.640 before five pm, so it's getting dark and chilly. 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:44.720 We know. 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:48.280 Rochelle leaves work just after five and heads towards her 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:52.760 home in Bargo, that's a thirty minute drive south. On 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:56.400 the way, she calls Christie, who was staying at their parents' 0:16:56.400 --> 0:17:01.200 place in Glenfield, a suburb in Campbelltown. So Rochelle is 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:01.920 home alone. 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.800 I remember she called me on her way home from work. 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.199 I was on you know when you used to have 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.720 like the second line on the landline. I was on 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.720 the phone to my best mate from school and I 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:17.720 heard the call come through, and I said, I'll just 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:20.160 answer this quickly. So I jumped over to the other 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.119 line and it was Rochelle and she was driving. 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:24.800 Because she always spoke so far. 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.480 She just said hey, Chris, Michelle, and I said, hey, 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:29.920 I'm on the other line. Erin and she went, oh, 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:31.719 right here, call me back. I said, okay, bye, and 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:32.200 that was it. 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:33.200 I hung up. 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.880 That was the last time I spoke to her. 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:42.080 That's Rochelle's last known phone contact with anyone on the evening. 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.720 She was murdered a minute later. Her blue hold and 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.480 Commodore was spotted by a council ranger driving through Camden 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.600 at five sixteen pm. A friend who knows Rochelle from 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.760 work later tells police she flicked her headlights at him 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.639 as they drove past each other through Camden. All clues 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.000 to this point tell us she's heading home, and it's 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:08.359 believed she had somewhere to go. We're pretty sure she 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.960 made it home to Bargo. If she went straight home, 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.879 she would have got there just before six pm. Her 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.040 friend Fiona remembers going to Bargo the following day. 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.040 When I arrived at her house, the lights were all 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.080 on and the telly was still on, and the windows. 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:27.160 Were like the blinds were open. 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.359 I could see it looked like she'd literally just left, 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:32.320 gotten changed and left. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.920 We don't know where she went, with who, or if 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.760 she went willingly. This is where we lose any trace 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:44.240 of Rochelle. Now we're going to explore Kevin's alibi in 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:49.320 close detail. Kevin voluntarily participated in three interviews with police 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:53.400 in relation to Rochelle's murder, and we've gathered the following 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:57.760 timeline from his evidence as well as police evidence, including 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:02.440 mobile phone data. I want to foreshadow two points. Kevin 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.639 wasn't immediately forthcoming with police about his address at the 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:11.439 time and a curious phone call. Okay, let's get into it. 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:17.640 Kevin tells detectives he leaves Camden Holden after a shell 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:22.360 between five thirty and five forty. It's his son's birthday 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.960 that day, the Thursday leading into the June Long weekend. 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.919 He tells police he drives about twenty minutes east to 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:34.679 Campbelltown Mall looking for a wallet as a present. Kevin 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.280 says he arrives at Campbelltown Parks and walks around for 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:42.639 about ten minutes, but doesn't buy anything. Next, he drives 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:44.600 to a leather good shop and a shopping center a 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:49.080 few minutes away at Macasa Square. He drives there, but 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.359 there's a queue to get into the car park. Kevin 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.720 says that's when he changes his mind, realizing he won't 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.520 be seeing his son that evening, and decides to buy 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:03.120 him an HSV jacket from Camden Holden instead. Now this 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.879 is a critical moment in Kevin's alibi. According to the 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.440 timings in his statement, he was in the Campbelltown area's 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.879 shopping until at least ten past six at the earliest, 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:17.840 possibly later if he left work closer to five point forty, 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:23.040 but mobile phone data places him in another location about 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:27.600 twenty five kilometers away from Campbelltown at exactly six oh 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:31.800 eight pm. That call peinged off a cell tower on 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.000 the southern side of Picton, which is much closer to 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:41.240 Bargo than Campbelltown. Council assisting the coroner, Peter Singleton, explored 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:44.240 the six to eight phone call in thorough detail of 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:45.359 Rochelle's inquest. 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:51.800 We had his phone being used south of Picton at 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.080 a time when he said that he was on the 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:58.000 other side of the Razorback Mountain range in Campbelltown or 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:02.919 MacArthur Square. Whilst not conclusive, tended to suggest that his 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:06.359 alibi was not truthful. And my recollection is there was 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:10.639 no supporting evidence for his shopping trip and that the 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.920 independent evidence tended to suggest he was gained towards Bargo 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:16.720 when he denied it. So it was obviously a matter 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.959 of great interest and importance to explore it as much 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:25.280 as we could. The phone pings in a particular location, 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:30.800 cell tower's point in certain directions, it's a vague indication, 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.439 but the cell tower can give you an indication if 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.760 the direction the person is relative to the cell tower. 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:42.119 The topography is also important. You can be pinging on 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:45.480 a cell tower far away. If it's all flat in 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:48.480 between you and the cell tower. If it's all mountainous 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:51.000 in between you and the cell tower, then it's not 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:54.880 likely to ping. It's not conclusive, but as a matter 0:21:54.880 --> 0:22:00.199 of probability, you generally ping on a cell tower it 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:02.840 is close to you and not obscured. 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:05.120 By a mountain. He's retired to teaket if Damien Loon 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:07.120 unpacking what we know so far. 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:10.720 Some of the most baffling questions in Rochelle's case are 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.280 where did she meet a killer? When? And where was 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:18.120 the fatal encounter? Did it happen in Bargo or down 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:18.840 around Giroua. 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:22.520 Let's go back to our analysis of Kevin's alibi. 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:27.119 That six o eight pm phone call is important, and 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.480 when you look at Kevin's shopping trip, there's no proof 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:32.639 of it. He's gone to a couple of shops but 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:33.560 never bought anything. 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:37.200 For a closer look at the topography of the area 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:41.000 we're referring to, there's an animated map with key locations 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:44.480 on our website. Go to Dear Rochelle dot com dot au. 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:53.320 That phone call Kevin made at six oh eight pm 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:57.399 is a great significance. The number he dialed is almost 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:01.399 identical to Rochelle's mobile number, but with two of the 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:04.480 digits switched around, as if he going to type the 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:07.679 number and mix them up. Here's Damien again. 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:10.320 There's two digits that have been swapped around at the 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:12.800 end of the phone number. So that number Kevin called 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:15.480 went to someone in Queensland and it was a wrong number. 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.119 Now I firmly believe that Kevin was trying to ring Michelle, 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:23.520 but why when Kevin was first questioned by homicide detectives 0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:25.639 he didn't mention this phone call. He had to be 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:27.600