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Speaker 1: First of all, we were just seeing the car park

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Speaker 1: by itself. We must have heard something because David's turned

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Speaker 1: off the car and we listen. Then we heard screaming.

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Speaker 1: My name is Wayne Nielsen, or was a policeman for

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Speaker 1: close on twenty years.

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Speaker 2: Wayne is taking us back in time to a Saturday

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Speaker 2: night in May nineteen eighty three. It's just past midnight

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Speaker 2: and he's patrolling the streets of Liverpool in Sydney Southwest

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Speaker 2: with Constable Dave Stephenson.

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Speaker 1: Turn the truck around to face the vehicle. I met

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Speaker 1: the young woman running from the vehicle, extremely distressed, clutching

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Speaker 1: her dress and saying that the guy's got a gun.

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Speaker 3: He's threatened to killer.

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Speaker 1: Immediately, we drew our revolvers and told him to get

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Speaker 1: out of the vehicle with his hands so we could

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Speaker 1: see them so that he was an armed He got

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Speaker 1: out of the vehicle and as he did so with

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Speaker 1: his hands up, his pants came down and then got

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Speaker 1: him to go against the vehicle. At that stage he

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Speaker 1: still got his hands up. After he's got his pants

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Speaker 1: up and with searched him looking for this gun. Dave

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Speaker 1: went back to speak to her while I was guarding

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Speaker 1: the fender Dave's then come back and said to the

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Speaker 1: fender that the victim has complained that you sexually assaulted her.

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Speaker 2: And what did the alleged offenders say.

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Speaker 1: Well, he said something in relation to she deserved it

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Speaker 1: or something like that she was only a mole That's

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Speaker 1: how he was behaving towards her at the time. At

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Speaker 1: some stage with searched the vehicle. Well, Dave searched the

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Speaker 1: vehicle was still with the truck and the victim Dave

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Speaker 1: didn't come up with anything under the seat. She lledged

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Speaker 1: that the weapon was under a sept that he reached

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Speaker 1: for it a couple of times during the assault.

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Speaker 2: Was a weapon foul? So did you take this man

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Speaker 2: back to the police station and did he identify himself

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Speaker 2: to you?

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Speaker 1: Yes, we found out his identity.

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Speaker 2: What did he say?

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Speaker 1: His name was Kevin Cornwall.

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Speaker 2: I'm Ashley Hanson and you're listening to episode ten of

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Speaker 2: Dear Rochelle, a podcast by True Crime Australia. This is

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Speaker 2: the untold story of Rochelle Charles, a twenty three year

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Speaker 2: old who was brutally murdered. Her killer has never been caught.

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Speaker 2: In your experience, how common is it to make an

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Speaker 2: arrest during an alleged attack.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not very often. You get people in the act

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Speaker 1: of it, you know, breaking an as you do and

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Speaker 1: things like that, but certainly not sexual assaults. I can't

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Speaker 1: think of any other ones which happened at the time

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Speaker 1: we actually wrestled them. Basically in the act.

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Speaker 2: Wayne is recalling his arrest of Kevin Stephen Cornwall more

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Speaker 2: than four decades ago. Kevin, who later changed his surname

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Speaker 2: to Correll, became the key suspect in Rochelle's murder. You've

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Speaker 2: already heard about two other sexually motivated attacks in which

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Speaker 2: Kevin was charged but later acquitted. Wayne is talking about

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Speaker 2: a third case, in which Kevin was also acquitted. The

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Speaker 2: alleged victim is a young woman whose identity is protected.

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Speaker 2: She'd met Kevin at a popular Liverpool nightclub called Scaramouge.

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Speaker 2: We think it's important to tell you about this case

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Speaker 2: and allowed you to decide if you think it's relevant

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Speaker 2: to Rochelle's case. At the heart of it is he's

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Speaker 2: a young woman who found herself alone in a car

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Speaker 2: with Kevin. That's not in dispute. What was contested is

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Speaker 2: what happened inside Kevin's car. This is part of what

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Speaker 2: the alleged victim told a Sydney court when Kevin went

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Speaker 2: a trial. This is not her voice, but these are

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Speaker 2: her words.

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Speaker 4: Well, first he leant over and started trying to kiss

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Speaker 4: me and that, and that's when I said to him,

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Speaker 4: I've got a husband. And he said, you're nothing better.

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Speaker 4: He called me a lesbian, a tramp, and all those

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Speaker 4: sorts of things. And he said, one minute you've told

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Speaker 4: me you're engaged, next thing, you told me you're married.

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Speaker 2: I said you better leave me.

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Speaker 4: Alone, and he moved back and then started undoing his

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Speaker 4: pants and then he grabbed me by the hair and

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Speaker 4: I just started crying. And the more I cried, the

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Speaker 4: angrier he got. And he started slapping me in the

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Speaker 4: face and said stop crying. And then I got back

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Speaker 4: up and I was just sitting there, and then he

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Speaker 4: leant over again and grabbed me by the neck and

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Speaker 4: he says, I've got a gun underneath the front seat

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Speaker 4: if you don't come across. And all I kept on

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Speaker 4: thinking was this couldn't be happening.

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Speaker 5: I just kept.

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Speaker 4: Crying, and he got worse and worse, and he started

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Speaker 4: bending my neck right back and I was just sitting

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Speaker 4: there and then his eyes sort of lit up. I

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Speaker 4: tried to get out of the door, but it was locked,

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Speaker 4: so I unlocked it and I got out of the car.

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Speaker 4: I went to get out of the car. I was

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Speaker 4: screaming in everything, and he tried to start the car

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Speaker 4: to get away, and then I went running over to

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Speaker 4: the police truck screaming and like he pulled all the

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Speaker 4: straps down on my dress down, and then I told

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Speaker 4: the police he had a gun, and so they went

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Speaker 4: straight over to him. And then one of the policemen

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Speaker 4: came back over to me and I sat down in

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Speaker 4: the police van and he said to me, what happened,

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Speaker 4: and I said, he tried to kill me.

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Speaker 2: Walk began as a standard night for Constable Wayne Nielsen

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Speaker 2: more than forty years ago patrolling Sydney's Southwest, has stayed

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Speaker 2: with him to this day.

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Speaker 1: Well, sure, wholly upset. I mean, she just went through

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Speaker 1: a very traumatic time where she obviously felt her life

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Speaker 1: was threatened. She was violently sexually assaulted.

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Speaker 2: Wayne was struck by how Kevin, who was twenty seven

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Speaker 2: at the time, was acting towards the young woman.

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Speaker 1: Well, he was pretty offensive towards the female in his

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Speaker 1: language and his demeanor, and how he related to her.

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Speaker 1: It seems like that was a very common attitude of his,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: And would it be fair to call him an extreme

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Speaker 2: misogynist the way that he was describing her behavior.

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Speaker 1: I mean a total disregard for respect of a female.

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Speaker 2: Kevin claims the alleged victim agreed to go for a

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Speaker 2: drive after she was denied entry to the nightclub, but

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Speaker 2: she claims he'd offered to give her a lift home.

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Speaker 2: Kevin says inside the cup the pair got into an

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Speaker 2: argument and she became upset. Kevin took the stand to

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Speaker 2: defend him. Here's part of what he told the court,

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Speaker 2: voiced by an actor.

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Speaker 6: I stopped the car at Woodward Park and told her

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Speaker 6: to settle down. She was crying by then, upset, and

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Speaker 6: we took from maybe five minutes, and she seemed to

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Speaker 6: appear to me to settle down a little bit. Then

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Speaker 6: I put my arm around her, and I first kissed

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Speaker 6: her on the cheek, and then I started kissing her

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Speaker 6: on the lips. She responded to that, she seemed to

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Speaker 6: settle down a little bit again, and I again put

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Speaker 6: my arm around her and kissed her. The response was

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Speaker 6: more this time that she was kissing me back. We

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Speaker 6: kissed for a while and I undone my top button

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Speaker 6: and my fly. She said, you fucking guys are all

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Speaker 6: the same, and we started an argument. She said I'm married,

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Speaker 6: I've got a husband at home something to that, and

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Speaker 6: I replied to that, you told me earlier on in

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Speaker 6: the evening that you'd just broken off your engagement. She

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Speaker 6: called me names, and then I called her a slut.

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Speaker 6: I think I called her a mole and teaser or something.

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Speaker 6: I think she said again to take her home. I

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Speaker 6: told her I'll drop her back up at Scaramouge. She

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Speaker 6: said I want to go home, and I said.

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Speaker 7: She said, you told me you'd said a while ago

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Speaker 7: that you'd take me home. I said that was before

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Speaker 7: you started carrying on like an idiot, and I said,

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Speaker 7: I'm going to drop you back up to Scaramouge. We

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Speaker 7: were arguing, as I said, and a light came up

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Speaker 7: the driveway. As it got closer, I was sewing the

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Speaker 7: police light on top of the truck and I said

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Speaker 7: something like it's the bloody copper is not to worry,

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Speaker 7: they'll go straight past.

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Speaker 8: And the police stopped and she started screaming.

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Speaker 2: Kevin denies having a gun in his car and no

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Speaker 2: weapons were found. A jury later found not guilty of

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Speaker 2: the attack. Let's return to Wayne Nielsen. I asked him,

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Speaker 2: generally speaking, how vulnerable is a woman in a car

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Speaker 2: with a dangerous man?

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Speaker 1: Extremely vulnerable? I think a lot of times females may

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Speaker 1: not realize how dangerous a male can be, how strong

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Speaker 1: and driven.

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Speaker 2: Let's bring in retired detective Damien Loon to get his

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Speaker 2: thoughts on this third sexual assault case.

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Speaker 9: Well, when do you look at the circumstances of how

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Speaker 9: he's arrested a gunpoint? It's a smoking gun brief, as

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Speaker 9: I say, you know, here he gets out of a car.

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Speaker 9: He's been accused of a sexual and motivated attack against

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Speaker 9: a young intoxicated woman, and he gets out of the

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Speaker 9: current and the cops pull him out a current gunpoint

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Speaker 9: in his pants fall down around his ankles. You know,

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Speaker 9: you couldn't get a better evidence. Police had enough evidence

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Speaker 9: to charge him. They would have obtained a statement from

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Speaker 9: the victim, and it would have gone up to the

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Speaker 9: district court for trial. And yet yet again, as I say,

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Speaker 9: this is the course of just just that he went under.

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Speaker 9: He was acquitted of most.

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Speaker 2: Matters, and now it's probably the time to tell you

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Speaker 2: about the first rape allegation leveled against Kevin. The year

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Speaker 2: was nineteen eighty and Kevin was twenty four DJing in

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Speaker 2: Sydney's Southwest. On this occasion, a seventeen year old told

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Speaker 2: police Kevin had offered to drive her home from a

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Speaker 2: Liverpool nightclub. She alleges he pulled a knife on her,

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Speaker 2: ordering her into the back seat, where he allegedly raped

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Speaker 2: her before dropping her home. Kevin was charged with rape

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Speaker 2: and two counts of indecent assault. He was committed to

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Speaker 2: stand trial and later acquitted of all charges for anyone

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Speaker 2: keeping count. That's four acquittals for sexually motivated attacks on

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Speaker 2: young women in the space of three years. How could

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Speaker 2: one man be so unlucky to be wrongly accused by

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Speaker 2: four different women? Not guilty and Kevin Carle were quite

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Speaker 2: a recurring scene in the nineteen eighties. In this investigation,

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Speaker 2: we've been trying to fill in the missing nine hours

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Speaker 2: from when Rochelle was last seen leaving Camden Holden to

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Speaker 2: when her burning body was found just after two am

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Speaker 2: on Friday, June eighth, two thousand and one. One of

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Speaker 2: the last people to see Rochelle alive was her final customer,

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Speaker 2: Kathy Thelander.

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Speaker 5: I had gone in to see Rochelle about purchasing a

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Speaker 5: vehicle off the lot, and she was her usual beautiful self,

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Speaker 5: and we spoke about it. I think I was trading

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Speaker 5: in a vehicle as well, which she loved, so we

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Speaker 5: spoke about that. My daughters were with me and my

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Speaker 5: sister was with me. I think also, you know, we

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Speaker 5: would have got there about three pooty five, and Rochelle

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Speaker 5: had to leave in the afternoon. She apologized, She said

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Speaker 5: she had to be somewhere and she had to leave

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Speaker 5: a little bit earlier than what she thought she would.

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Speaker 2: Did she give you any reason as to why she

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Speaker 2: had to leave early that day?

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Speaker 5: No, she didn't. I've thought about this. No, she didn't

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Speaker 5: give me any reason. She was very happy though, but

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Speaker 5: every time I saw Rachelle she was happy.

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Speaker 2: Did she take a car for a test drive with you?

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Speaker 2: What car were you looking at? And who else was

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Speaker 2: there with you that day?

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Speaker 5: Because I had a familiarity with Campden Hold and my

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Speaker 5: husband at the time had worked there for many years,

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Speaker 5: and although he had left, we still remained in close

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Speaker 5: contact with some of the people that worked there, so

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Speaker 5: I was well known to the dealership. So usually if

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Speaker 5: I liked a car, I was just allowed to take

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Speaker 5: it out myself drive it around. No, she didn't come

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Speaker 5: with me. There was Kevin Carell. He was there. He

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Speaker 5: wasn't too far away at any point of in the background,

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Speaker 5: a few met us away. He was listening to Rochelle,

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Speaker 5: listening to what was happening. He did seem particularly interested

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Speaker 5: in hearing everything that Rachelle and I were talking about,

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Speaker 5: and he wasn't too far away. And when we went

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Speaker 5: into the office to discuss the finance, he was definitely there,

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Speaker 5: not too far away, so he was sort of not

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Speaker 5: too far away, maybe a meter, sort of behind her

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Speaker 5: desk and around. Truly just think he was evesdropping.

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Speaker 2: Do you have any recollections about doing any paperwork with

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Speaker 2: Rochelle in terms of buying the car I did.

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Speaker 5: I builed out paperwork might have been done the day

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Speaker 5: before or the day before that. They said the paperwork

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Speaker 5: had gone missing, And I remember sitting there with Rochelle

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Speaker 5: and she couldn't find our paperwork, She couldn't find our

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Speaker 5: own application. She was asking Kevin if he'd seen them,

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Speaker 5: because they were definitely on her desk. They would have

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Speaker 5: been in a file, I'm sure, And he said no,

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Speaker 5: he hadn't seen them. No, they're just there. And she said, well,

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Speaker 5: they're not just there, they're gone and they were here

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Speaker 5: and he said, no, no, and they're just there. And

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Speaker 5: she looked at us and rolled her eyes as if

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Speaker 5: he was no help at all. That was when he

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Speaker 5: was sort of lingering. He wasn't too far away.

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Speaker 2: What was your impression of Rochelle's reaction to that?

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Speaker 5: She was frustrated, and I think that it made her

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Speaker 5: look unprofessional, which she didn't like because she was very professional.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever wonder what had happened to that paperwork

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Speaker 2: that you'd filled out?

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Speaker 5: So when I rang back early the next week for

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Speaker 5: the application to be processed and lodged, and that's when

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Speaker 5: they told me that I asked to speak to Rachelle,

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Speaker 5: and that's when they told me that Rachelle had passed away.

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Speaker 5: I think I was so shocked to hear that. I

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Speaker 5: did wonder why I had to basically apply for this

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Speaker 5: loan twice. A few weeks after Rochelle had passed, I

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Speaker 5: did a credit reference check on myself because it was

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Speaker 5: just it was nagging at me in my mind, and

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Speaker 5: that loan for that statesman had been applied for a

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Speaker 5: couple of times at least and then not gone ahead.

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Speaker 5: And I thought that was very strange. So the paperwork

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Speaker 5: hadn't been lost, It had actually been been lodged.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that Rochelle had anything to do with

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Speaker 2: that paperwork being lost?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 2: Why are you so confident of that?

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Speaker 5: I really don't think.

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Speaker 10: So.

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Speaker 5: She seemed exasperated that she couldn't find it. Kevin was

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Speaker 5: lase a that it couldn't be found, and no, look,

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Speaker 5: that's just a gut feeling. I doubt it very much.

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Speaker 5: And when we were out on a lot, I could

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Speaker 5: see he was watching her again, and I thought to

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Speaker 5: myself at the time, I think he had a little

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Speaker 5: crash on her. And the way he did used to

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Speaker 5: watch Rochelle, I can picture him now, just sort of

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Speaker 5: like leering at her at the corner of his eye.

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Speaker 5: I didn't like it, and she seemed quite oblivious.

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Speaker 2: Both Rochelle and her boss Kevin were last sighted at

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Speaker 2: Camden Holden on the night in question. It's June seven,

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Speaker 2: a winter's night in the historic Australian country town of Camden.

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Speaker 2: This time of year, the sun begins to set just

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Speaker 2: before five pm, so it's getting dark and chilly.

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Speaker 8: We know.

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00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 2: Rochelle leaves work just after five and heads towards her

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Speaker 2: home in Bargo, that's a thirty minute drive south. On

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Speaker 2: the way, she calls Christie, who was staying at their parents'

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Speaker 2: place in Glenfield, a suburb in Campbelltown. So Rochelle is

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Speaker 2: home alone.

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Speaker 11: I remember she called me on her way home from work.

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Speaker 11: I was on you know when you used to have

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Speaker 11: like the second line on the landline. I was on

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Speaker 11: the phone to my best mate from school and I

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Speaker 11: heard the call come through, and I said, I'll just

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Speaker 11: answer this quickly. So I jumped over to the other

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Speaker 11: line and it was Rochelle and she was driving.

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Speaker 8: Because she always spoke so far.

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Speaker 11: She just said hey, Chris, Michelle, and I said, hey,

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Speaker 11: I'm on the other line. Erin and she went, oh,

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Speaker 11: right here, call me back. I said, okay, bye, and

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Speaker 11: that was it.

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Speaker 5: I hung up.

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Speaker 11: That was the last time I spoke to her.

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Speaker 2: That's Rochelle's last known phone contact with anyone on the evening.

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Speaker 2: She was murdered a minute later. Her blue hold and

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Speaker 2: Commodore was spotted by a council ranger driving through Camden

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Speaker 2: at five sixteen pm. A friend who knows Rochelle from

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Speaker 2: work later tells police she flicked her headlights at him

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Speaker 2: as they drove past each other through Camden. All clues

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Speaker 2: to this point tell us she's heading home, and it's

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Speaker 2: believed she had somewhere to go. We're pretty sure she

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Speaker 2: made it home to Bargo. If she went straight home,

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Speaker 2: she would have got there just before six pm. Her

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Speaker 2: friend Fiona remembers going to Bargo the following day.

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Speaker 12: When I arrived at her house, the lights were all

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00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,080
Speaker 12: on and the telly was still on, and the windows.

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Speaker 8: Were like the blinds were open.

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Speaker 12: I could see it looked like she'd literally just left,

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Speaker 12: gotten changed and left.

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Speaker 2: We don't know where she went, with who, or if

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Speaker 2: she went willingly. This is where we lose any trace

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Speaker 2: of Rochelle. Now we're going to explore Kevin's alibi in

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Speaker 2: close detail. Kevin voluntarily participated in three interviews with police

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Speaker 2: in relation to Rochelle's murder, and we've gathered the following

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Speaker 2: timeline from his evidence as well as police evidence, including

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Speaker 2: mobile phone data. I want to foreshadow two points. Kevin

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Speaker 2: wasn't immediately forthcoming with police about his address at the

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Speaker 2: time and a curious phone call. Okay, let's get into it.

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Speaker 2: Kevin tells detectives he leaves Camden Holden after a shell

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Speaker 2: between five thirty and five forty. It's his son's birthday

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00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,960
Speaker 2: that day, the Thursday leading into the June Long weekend.

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Speaker 2: He tells police he drives about twenty minutes east to

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Speaker 2: Campbelltown Mall looking for a wallet as a present. Kevin

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00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,280
Speaker 2: says he arrives at Campbelltown Parks and walks around for

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Speaker 2: about ten minutes, but doesn't buy anything. Next, he drives

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Speaker 2: to a leather good shop and a shopping center a

340
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Speaker 2: few minutes away at Macasa Square. He drives there, but

341
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Speaker 2: there's a queue to get into the car park. Kevin

342
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,720
Speaker 2: says that's when he changes his mind, realizing he won't

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Speaker 2: be seeing his son that evening, and decides to buy

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00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:03,120
Speaker 2: him an HSV jacket from Camden Holden instead. Now this

345
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 2: is a critical moment in Kevin's alibi. According to the

346
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,440
Speaker 2: timings in his statement, he was in the Campbelltown area's

347
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,879
Speaker 2: shopping until at least ten past six at the earliest,

348
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 2: possibly later if he left work closer to five point forty,

349
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Speaker 2: but mobile phone data places him in another location about

350
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Speaker 2: twenty five kilometers away from Campbelltown at exactly six oh

351
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 2: eight pm. That call peinged off a cell tower on

352
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Speaker 2: the southern side of Picton, which is much closer to

353
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Speaker 2: Bargo than Campbelltown. Council assisting the coroner, Peter Singleton, explored

354
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Speaker 2: the six to eight phone call in thorough detail of

355
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Speaker 2: Rochelle's inquest.

356
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Speaker 13: We had his phone being used south of Picton at

357
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Speaker 13: a time when he said that he was on the

358
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Speaker 13: other side of the Razorback Mountain range in Campbelltown or

359
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,919
Speaker 13: MacArthur Square. Whilst not conclusive, tended to suggest that his

360
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 13: alibi was not truthful. And my recollection is there was

361
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 13: no supporting evidence for his shopping trip and that the

362
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,920
Speaker 13: independent evidence tended to suggest he was gained towards Bargo

363
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 13: when he denied it. So it was obviously a matter

364
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,959
Speaker 13: of great interest and importance to explore it as much

365
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 13: as we could. The phone pings in a particular location,

366
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,800
Speaker 13: cell tower's point in certain directions, it's a vague indication,

367
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 13: but the cell tower can give you an indication if

368
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 13: the direction the person is relative to the cell tower.

369
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 13: The topography is also important. You can be pinging on

370
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 13: a cell tower far away. If it's all flat in

371
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 13: between you and the cell tower. If it's all mountainous

372
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 13: in between you and the cell tower, then it's not

373
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Speaker 13: likely to ping. It's not conclusive, but as a matter

374
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Speaker 13: of probability, you generally ping on a cell tower it

375
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Speaker 13: is close to you and not obscured.

376
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Speaker 2: By a mountain. He's retired to teaket if Damien Loon

377
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 2: unpacking what we know so far.

378
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 9: Some of the most baffling questions in Rochelle's case are

379
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 9: where did she meet a killer? When? And where was

380
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 9: the fatal encounter? Did it happen in Bargo or down

381
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 9: around Giroua.

382
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: Let's go back to our analysis of Kevin's alibi.

383
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,119
Speaker 9: That six o eight pm phone call is important, and

384
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 9: when you look at Kevin's shopping trip, there's no proof

385
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 9: of it. He's gone to a couple of shops but

386
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 9: never bought anything.

387
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 2: For a closer look at the topography of the area

388
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 2: we're referring to, there's an animated map with key locations

389
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 2: on our website. Go to Dear Rochelle dot com dot au.

390
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 2: That phone call Kevin made at six oh eight pm

391
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 2: is a great significance. The number he dialed is almost

392
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 2: identical to Rochelle's mobile number, but with two of the

393
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 2: digits switched around, as if he going to type the

394
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,679
Speaker 2: number and mix them up. Here's Damien again.

395
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 9: There's two digits that have been swapped around at the

396
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 9: end of the phone number. So that number Kevin called

397
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 9: went to someone in Queensland and it was a wrong number.

398
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 9: Now I firmly believe that Kevin was trying to ring Michelle,

399
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 9: but why when Kevin was first questioned by homicide detectives

400
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 9: he didn't mention this phone call. He had to be

401
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 9: reminded of it in his police interview.

402
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 7: I obviously didn't get through and never bothered it again.

403
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 7: So obviously the reason I rang was just was something

404
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 7: to do with work relation. There was no answer, he

405
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 7: was engaged or something. I don't know if I spoke

406
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 7: to anyone. I don't recall anyone saying you've got the

407
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 7: wrong number. I obviously didn't try again, and if it's

408
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 7: if you've got the phone records there, so I obviously

409
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 7: would have been discussing it with her the next day.

410
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 7: But you know, whether it is a sale or whether

411
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 7: it wasn't a sale, or whether the people were coming back.

412
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 7: I can't recall, so it wasn't relevant.

413
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 8: I don't think.

414
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 9: So.

415
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 2: To recap Kevin's last verified sighting is around five point

416
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 2: thirty PM, when he leaves work. His phone then pings

417
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: south have Picton, yet he says he was in the

418
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 2: Campbelltown area. After leaving Campbelltown, Kevin says he drives to

419
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 2: Picton to visit his partner, Alice. That's about a half

420
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 2: hour drive southwest. He says he arrives at Picton wanting

421
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 2: to stay the night, but Alice isn't home. Kevin makes

422
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: a further two phone calls from his mobile that evening.

423
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 2: Both are to Alice and exactly an hour apart. It's

424
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 2: unclear precisely where Kevin was at the time of these

425
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 2: last two calls, but his evidence tends to suggest he

426
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: was in the area he told police he was in

427
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: for those calls. Phone records show at six point thirty

428
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 2: eight PM, Kevin rings Alice, but she doesn't answer. That

429
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 2: call pings off a Picton cell tower, putting him in

430
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: that area. He says Alice wasn't home. He drives ten

431
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: minutes further south to Tarmore to get takeaway from a

432
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 2: shop called either tarm Or Gourmet Foods or Tarmol Takeaway,

433
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: where he orders fish.

434
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 8: Cake, bat it sav a bag of chips and a cake.

435
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: And a quick note. Tamil is in the opposite direction

436
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: to Kevin's home. There's also takeaway options in Picton. Now.

437
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: Remember in nineteen eighty three when Kevin was questioned and

438
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 2: later acquitted over the attempted sexual assault of a young

439
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 2: mum at Darlinghurst. This was his alibi. This is not

440
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: his voice.

441
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 7: Well, stop to take away food bar in Terminus Street, Liverpool,

442
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 7: where I purchased about it save a piece of fish,

443
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 7: a bag of chips and a loaf of bread.

444
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 2: Detectives questioned Kevin about the similarities between his alibis eighteen

445
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 2: years apart.

446
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 8: Well, yeah, I love fish and chips.

447
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 7: Once I'll change that and get a fish cake and

448
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 7: a battered savon chips.

449
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 8: I've done it twice this week.

450
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: When Detective Inspector Mick Ashwood was in charge of reviewing

451
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 2: Rochelle's case in two thousand and three, he re examined

452
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 2: Kevin's alibi alongside his mobile phone data.

453
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 3: Just swapping the cantercoat full the loaf of bread.

454
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 14: But to pull those exact words out on a recording interview,

455
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 14: what's in a statement from the I think it was

456
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 14: the eighties, he's quite well. It stands out to you

457
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 14: that it could be a manufactured account of where they were,

458
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 14: because we do know that independent evidence he was down

459
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,239
Speaker 14: towards Pargo. We don't know exactly where he was, but

460
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 14: this is important. It's independent evidence that puts him down there.

461
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: And he's paid a singleton. Again.

462
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 13: It is not unknown for criminals to fall back upon

463
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 13: a comfortable alibi that's worked for them before. In this case,

464
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 13: one possibility is that mister Carrell fell back upon an

465
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,959
Speaker 13: alibi that had worked for him before and decided to

466
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 13: use it again. Not because it was true, but because

467
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 13: he was comfortable with it. He would be able to

468
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 13: sustain it, not change his story, not forget not the possibilities.

469
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 13: It was true and it's just a coincidence that he

470
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 13: had the same alibi twenty years apart. My view was

471
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 13: that it was a proper thing to explore to see

472
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 13: what came of it. Any One thing in isolation doesn't

473
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 13: in a circumstantial case such as this would have been,

474
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 13: doesn't amount to much. It is the accumulated weight. Of

475
00:27:54,040 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 13: all the circumstances, one coincidence of similar alibis doesn't prove all,

476
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 13: but you had it at all the rest.

477
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: According to Kevin, after he gets fish and chips from Tarmil,

478
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: he heads back to Picton to see if Alice is

479
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 2: home yet, but she's not. His phone records show a

480
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 2: call to Alice from his mobile at seven thirty eight pm,

481
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: which pings off a Norellan cell tower, which police belief

482
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: suggests he was somewhere near Camden at that point in time. Now,

483
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 2: this is a vital detail to highlight. At the time

484
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 2: of that phone call, Kevin says he was at his

485
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 2: unit in Camden. It was news to police that he

486
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: was even living at Camden. In Kevin's first police interview,

487
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: he didn't disclose his Camden address. He told investigators at

488
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: the time of Rochelle's murder he was residing with Alice

489
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: at Picton. For context, that unit of Kevin's directly overlooks

490
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 2: Camden Holden. Let's get Damien's thoughts on this.

491
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 9: I don't know why he would have withheld that information

492
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 9: from police. It was important, I don't know, And that's

493
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 9: one of the mysteries of the brain.

494
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: Do you think he could have withheld that information because

495
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: he was trying to hide that he could have been

496
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: watching Rochelle.

497
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 9: Look, it also could have been a crime, saying, that's

498
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 9: what disturbs me. And obviously the police didn't know about

499
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 9: the location of that unit near Camden Holden and for

500
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 9: me that would be very worrying now knowing that happened,

501
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 9: and I know that the investigators at the time would

502
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 9: have been looking for something like that. But for him

503
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 9: to withhold that information and sometimes you can do that,

504
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 9: it's easy to do and I could have been possibly

505
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 9: have been a crime, say his.

506
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: Former partner told the inquest he had not a lot

507
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: of furniture in that unit, but there were binoculars. Does

508
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: that concern you at all?

509
00:29:53,440 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 9: A sparsely furnished flat overlooking the car with a pair

510
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 9: of binoculars here, that does concern me.

511
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: One more thing about that Camden unit that Kevin rented

512
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 2: in two thousand and one, we managed to track down

513
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 2: the owner, David. Our picture editor Jeff dar mannin caught

514
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: up with David at the property, where he says he

515
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 2: made a bizarre discovery hidden inside the unit. After Kevin

516
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: moved out.

517
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 15: Do you have any memories when Kevin rented the unit?

518
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 16: He rented the unit, he worked next door and it

519
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 16: was very convenient being in that location. That and I

520
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 16: did meet him a few times which it would run

521
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 16: into him, and that we always struck me as being

522
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 16: quite a red rolled sort of a person.

523
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 17: In two thousand and one, could you see Camden Holden

524
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 17: from where the unit was?

525
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 3: Yes, you could from that unit.

526
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 16: You can see it from both the bedroom window and

527
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 16: the landroom window. But they have since built a silo

528
00:30:58,520 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 16: there on the adjoining block.

529
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 17: Can you describe the view from the unit into cant

530
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 17: and Holding itself?

531
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 3: You saw into the parking lot and some of the building.

532
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 16: Actually saw a fair bit of the place, really of

533
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 16: the exposed place.

534
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 15: And could you see the red train carriage?

535
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 3: You see the red train carriage from me?

536
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 15: Yet? And when did you discover police and search Captain's unit?

537
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 16: Well, it wasn't a discovery more so than they arrived

538
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 16: forensic squad and went through the place and top to

539
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 16: bottom marked the walls with paint and not paint but

540
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 16: stuff to see fingerprints and all the stuff they used

541
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 16: in for its forensic investigations.

542
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 15: How long after Rachelle's murder. Did Kevin move out?

543
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 16: Look, I can't honestly remember. To be Quotles, I can't remember,

544
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 16: but I know he did leave.

545
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 3: Yep.

546
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 16: The state the flat was left in was Yes, we

547
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 16: had to do the paint the walls because of the

548
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 16: stuff and the marks on for a the forensic people

549
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 16: had been through. There was marks on the carpet and

550
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 16: everything else. So he then decided to do up the

551
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 16: place and strip it and paint it and get it

552
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 16: ready for the next tenant.

553
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 15: And while you were doing that, did you discover anything?

554
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 3: This?

555
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 16: Well, this, it's just it. We went pulling up the carpet,

556
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 16: the carpet went into the wardrobe and tucked in where

557
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 16: it lifted in the wardrobe, found a lot of newspaper clippings,

558
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 16: all directly associated with the murder. I took them home

559
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 16: and said to my wife, I found these, and she

560
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 16: said take it to the police, which I did the

561
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 16: very next day and gave it to the detective and

562
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 16: all of it was and I said, this is.

563
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 3: What I've found. He's moved out, and this is what

564
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 3: I found.

565
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 17: And where they were. What was the detective's reaction when

566
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 17: you showed him that.

567
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, they took it on board and that was about it.

568
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 3: And basically that's the last I heard of it for

569
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 3: a while.

570
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 17: And when you look through those clippings, was there any

571
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 17: handwriting on anything any just straight straight clippings.

572
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 16: Look from memory, it was the page of fold pages

573
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 16: of the stuff. Whatever was on the page was on

574
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 16: that newspaper page.

575
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 17: And when Kevin had left the apartment and he had

576
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,959
Speaker 17: cleaned up, how did everything finalize?

577
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 16: Well, Kevin left there in a bit of a hurry,

578
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 16: obviously rent and left it. And like I said, the

579
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 16: place probably not accordingly, but the police had left it,

580
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 16: you know, as they would find a forensic place afterwards.

581
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 16: It was in need of a bit of TLC.

582
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 17: And did you have to chase Kevin for any money

583
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 17: or anything else there?

584
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 3: Since you said?

585
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 16: I did, And ironically I had a couple of because

586
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 16: he disappeared. I had a couple of mates that are

587
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 16: in the car industry and I just rang them and said, look,

588
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 16: if you ever know where this bloke is, can you

589
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 16: just let me know. I want to collect some rent

590
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 16: and I can't find him anywhere. Well, I think now

591
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 16: from memory it was in within days.

592
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 3: One of the blakes.

593
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 16: He said no problems dated he's working at time down

594
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 16: at Narah, So I fronted down there and to his

595
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 16: credit or anything at the time, I got paid straight away.

596
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 16: The check was there. Assuming they'd be going on with

597
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 16: a check that abounds. It didn't and and that was

598
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 16: my last doelings. But ironically I was in marellin shopping

599
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 16: center and I ran into the detective that I got

600
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 16: to know from the case, and I said, were are

601
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 16: you up to with that? And he said, oh, we

602
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 16: can't find him. I said, he got to be choking.

603
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 16: I said he had me money. I soon found him

604
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 16: and I told him where there was Now. After that point,

605
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 16: that's the last I heard of anything. I didn't see

606
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 16: the detective again, didn't hear what was going on.

607
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 3: And it was just he was a suspect. That was

608
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 3: all it was to it.

609
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 2: Getting back into Kevin's alibi. On the night in question,

610
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 2: at seven forty three pm, Alice calls Kevin. They speak

611
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 2: for exactly fifteen minutes and twenty seven seconds. Kevin says

612
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 2: he asked Alice if he come over to her place,

613
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 2: but she says she's tired and going to bed. Kevin

614
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 2: claims he then heads out. He jumps in his car

615
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 2: and drives past Camden Holden because it's right behind his unit.

616
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 2: He claims he sees the cleaner and stops to speak

617
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 2: with him, asking.

618
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 8: Him, is everything okay? You're the cleaner. The cleaner says, yeah,

619
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 8: everything he's okay.

620
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: But when the cleaner, Raymond Kusheba, is interviewed by police, he.

621
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 5: Says, whilst I was carrying out my cleaning outside, no

622
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 5: person approached me at any stage.

623
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 2: Kevin's next unverified stop is at the service station at

624
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 2: the end of the street, where he says he buys

625
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: a bottle of milk and he engages in some small

626
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 2: talk with the service station's staff member, who he knows

627
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 2: is David. During his statement to police, the staff member

628
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: said while Kevin Correll was a familiar customer, he could

629
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 2: not recall whether or not Kevin had come into the

630
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 2: service station that night. From there, Kevin says he drives

631
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: another one hundred meters or so and pops into the

632
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 2: Marino Hotel, where he puts five dollars in the pokies

633
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: and drinks a Scotch and coke. This stop isn't verified

634
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: by any witnesses or evidence, but it's possible police didn't

635
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 2: canvas the hotel early enough to prove it or disprove

636
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 2: his visit. Kevin says he then goes straight home. It

637
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 2: arrives at his Camden unit between nine and ten past

638
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 2: nine pm, where he has a cup of coffee, owns

639
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: a shirt for work, and watches Big Brother on the TV,

640
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: then falls asleep on the couch. He wakes up to

641
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: the cricket playing on TV, turns the TV off, and

642
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: falls back asleep until he wakes up. Friday morning at

643
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 2: seven am. Kevin goes to work, even though he's not

644
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 2: rostered on to work the Friday ahead of the June

645
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: Long weekend.

646
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 12: Looking back, when he came to work on that Friday morning,

647
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,959
Speaker 12: he was late and he looked like shit.

648
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 2: He looked really crappy, really like he hadn't slapped.

649
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 12: And he left early on that Friday afternoon and saying

650
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 12: he had a doctor's appointment too.

651
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: Another colleague, Kerrie Thorpe, also noticed Kevin's appearance on Friday.

652
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 2: This is her evidence, but not her voice.

653
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 18: I recall upon seeing him that day that he looked

654
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 18: like death. By that, I mean that he looked unwell,

655
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 18: He looked tired and like he hadn't been to bed

656
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 18: I remember that although he looked that way, his clothing

657
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 18: appeared normal and not disheveled, and he was wearing a

658
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 18: long black coat.

659
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: Kevin denies any involvement in Rochelle's death, and the coroner

660
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: delivered an open finding after conducting a coronial inquest. Rochelle's

661
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: initial investigation was dogged by police bungles, including lost CCTV

662
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 2: and misstop tunities. Potential witnesses when interviewed early enough, and

663
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 2: will never know exactly what forensic evidence was overlooked, but

664
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,439
Speaker 2: a major misstep centers around DNA. In two thousand and three,

665
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: police held a mass DNA screening in the local area

666
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: with no strong leads. Police, in an Australian first, are

667
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: sixty men to volunteer DNA samples.

668
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 14: The testing is not compulsory, but probably say they can

669
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 14: still rely on conventional methods of investigation.

670
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 2: Investigators had identified an unknown male DNA profile through their

671
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 2: sampling of exhibits, including a bedsheet. At the time, detectives

672
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 2: thought this was a major breakthrough in the case, but

673
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 2: it turned out to be another blow to police and

674
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: Rochelle's family.

675
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 8: Here's Mick Ashwood unfortunate.

676
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,240
Speaker 14: What didn't come through before that operation was the results

677
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 14: of an internal.

678
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 3: Searching of DNA.

679
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 14: Police don't hold their own officers with DNA database, but

680
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 14: it was established at an officer at seoel Haven. It

681
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 14: was their DNA when they were processing the exhibits that

682
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 14: got on to each of the items. Now by this

683
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 14: stage you'd.

684
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 15: Come around, would come around to an inquest.

685
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 14: So were now a few years into the case. So

686
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 14: that leads to some fundamental problems. And I'm talking here

687
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 14: from outside the investigation. Besides, no longer part of the

688
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 14: investigation at that time, apart from coordinating the DNA database.

689
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 14: But when the information came through that the DNA belonged

690
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 14: to an officer, first thing you do is eliminate the officer,

691
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 14: which was done. Then you look at the procedural mistake

692
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 14: in the handling of the exhibits, which is what occurred

693
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 14: on this occasion. You had to say that distracted the

694
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 14: investigation for a time. That it wasn't the DNA of

695
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 14: a person's of interest any of them, meant that we

696
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 14: weren't looking at those people anymore. When I say we

697
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 14: the Charlovan detective's leading the case.

698
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 2: I also asked FBI trained criminal profile at Chris Sillingsworth

699
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 2: her reaction to the DNA mix up.

700
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 19: Yeah, it's unfortunate that that happened because it was turned

701
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 19: out being being reherring in itself. But you know, he

702
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 19: may well have had the gloves on and wiped his

703
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 19: brow and then it's contemporated when he's touched the next exhibit.

704
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 19: So procedurally it wasn't the right thing, but on a

705
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 19: human level, you can understand how it would happen.

706
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 11: I remember just not being surprised. I think I would

707
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 11: imagine that Dad would have told me, because everything went

708
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 11: through Dad first, and then Dad told me and Mum. Yeah,

709
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 11: I imagine that he would have told me. And I

710
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 11: don't remember being surprised a because the DNA profile hadn't

711
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 11: matched anybody, and we tested everybody. You know, they stuffed

712
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 11: up a lot of things. And I'm not running the

713
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 11: police down. They worked really hard, but there were a

714
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 11: number of things that were yeah, stuffed up, things lost,

715
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 11: So I wasn't surprised. And yeah, as I've said to

716
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 11: you before, it's full of hope up and letdowns the

717
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 11: whole way through. So just another letdown that.

718
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 9: Would have been a gut wrenching kicking. The guts are

719
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 9: let down because you're on the verge of saying, well,

720
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 9: this may break, well, this may break the case. We

721
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 9: may find the offender or offenders, and yet then to

722
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 9: only to find that because there was poor crime scene

723
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 9: examination without being properly kidded up with your personal protective equipment,

724
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 9: and you've left your own DNA behind. It's somewhat not

725
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 9: any terrible and gut riching from the investigators, but an embarrassment.

726
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 2: In the course of this investigation, we've discovered Kevin Stephen

727
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 2: Carrell has had quite a lot of different jobs over

728
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: the years, or at least he claims he's had them.

729
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: Car salesman, DJ detective of laborer, security guard, psychologist, garage

730
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 2: door salesman, private investigator and lifeline counselor. Now we can

731
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 2: exclusively reveal his latest job. A tip off led us

732
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 2: to the New South Wales Central Coast, where Kevin was

733
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 2: said to be working as an RSA marshal that's the

734
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,959
Speaker 2: guy who monitors the welfare of patrons when it comes

735
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 2: to alcohol. On June seven, twenty twenty four, the twenty

736
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 2: third anniversary of Rochelle's murder. A tight crew headed to

737
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: the New South Wales Central Coast, myself, Christie's best friend,

738
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 2: Mindy Wicks, and Mindy's husband dropped in for a drink

739
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 2: at the league's club.

740
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 19: So sign in, We have to sign in normal?

741
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 8: Good?

742
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 6: Thanks?

743
00:42:58,880 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 10: Yes?

744
00:42:59,080 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 18: Please?

745
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 8: Giving you a hard time?

746
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 3: Is that.

747
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: We come face to face with Kevin at the club's

748
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 2: entrance within seconds of arriving.

749
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 8: Oh it always does.

750
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 18: No entire.

751
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 20: Is there any entertain No, that's die, have love evening,

752
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 20: Thank you?

753
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 15: What are the fucking chances?

754
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: Like?

755
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 21: I literally was putting in my address wrong because I

756
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 21: saw him and I started typing and then I saw

757
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 21: him and I was like fuck, and I was pressing

758
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 21: spaces where I couldn't and I couldn't fucking remember where

759
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 21: I live.

760
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 19: And then he come over.

761
00:43:52,080 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 2: I was My heart was racing, like that's you, that's it. Yeah,

762
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 2: what do you make of seeing him to Yeah?

763
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 8: Do you know?

764
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 20: And this is probably gonna sound silly, but seeing him

765
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 20: in the flash, face to face, having him literally inches

766
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 20: from me, it makes it even more fucking important to

767
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:36,399
Speaker 20: figure this out.

768
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 8: It's like a power thing.

769
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 10: I feel like he he needs, like he needs to

770
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 10: control the room. He and to a degree. He kind

771
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 10: of does because he's in and around everything, like he's

772
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 10: just there, you know, literally walking the place, and very

773
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 10: he's standing right next to me.

774
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 2: It was confronting, Yeah, I was. My heart was racing.

775
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: Keep in mind, early on, when I was investigating Rochelle's

776
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 2: case as a solo freelance journalist, I'd been warned to

777
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 2: tread very carefully. And the more I uncovered, the more

778
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:27,359
Speaker 2: I understood.

779
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 7: Why what you were suggesting you were going to do,

780
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 7: I wouldn't carry that out.

781
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 8: I fear for you.

782
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 3: I thought that you should be aware of what you

783
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 3: were doing. Sometimes you get lost in.

784
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,240
Speaker 13: Your work and you don't realize what you've done until

785
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:40,919
Speaker 13: it's too late.

786
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 15: Well, as I said to you before, you're poking a beer.

787
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 2: Now, more than a year into the investigation, with news

788
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 2: Corps backing and so much fresh evidence, it's time for

789
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: us to approach Kevin Carrell. Since the inquest more than

790
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 2: seven ten years ago, Kevin's moved on with his life

791
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 2: out of the media spotlight, but Rochelle's family deserves answers

792
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 2: and Kevin deserves the chance to speak. We have a

793
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 2: lot of questions for him, so we wanted to approach

794
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: him out in the open, and you're behind him.

795
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, turning left onto a whale road which is still

796
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 1: heading in your direction.

797
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 10: You're hitting a lot when he gets.

798
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 15: There, aren't you.

799
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'm right behind him, roughly eight a.

800
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 15: Couple of minutes.

801
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 3: Okay, he's just jumped a red light to turn the left.

802
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 15: I'm not going to do it.

803
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 5: No, do you think he'll be turning into the village road?

804
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:54,439
Speaker 3: Really soon?

805
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 2: Coming soon?

806
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 19: On Dear Rochelle, who was in an envelope, who was

807
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 19: basically accousing her of Rochelle's murder.

808
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 18: He has a hatred for all this, other than the

809
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 18: fact he wants the truth to come out.

810
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 13: The person who killed Rochelle Childs would have a similar

811
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 13: motive towards you, also hatred if you actually managed to

812
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 13: expose him schizophrenic.

813
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 2: I've never seen a man treated a woman like that.

814
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 3: I felt fear for my life.

815
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 13: I'm sure there is something out there or someone who

816
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 13: knows something that will bring essentially a monster to be arrested.

817
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 10: Watch your dad.

818
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 9: Get out of like that other way.

819
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 2: Dear Rochelle is a multi media production from True Crime Australia.

820
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 2: If you want to be one of the first to

821
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 2: find out what happens next, go to Dear Rochelle dot

822
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 2: com dot a you. That's where eligible Digital News Corp

823
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 2: Australia subscribers get early access to podcast episodes and breaking

824
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 2: news in our live in investigation and you will also

825
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:06,959
Speaker 2: find exclusive videos, interactive evidence, feature articles and more. That's

826
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,919
Speaker 2: de Roschhell dot com dot au. If you have any

827
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 2: tips or confidential information to share with me, Ashley Hanson,

828
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 2: please send an email to de Rochelle at News dot

829
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 2: com dot a you. Our supervising producer and audio editor

830
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 2: is Rehys Gunter Rachel Fountain. His executive producer and audio director.

831
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: Our executive editor is Sarah Blake. Our senior journalist is

832
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 2: Patrick Carline. Video editors are Jillian McNally, Owen Yang and

833
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 2: Stephen Woods. Picture editors are Jeff dr Mannen and Christy

834
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 2: Miller Sidney. Camera operators are Daniel Andrews and Oscar Viera.

835
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 2: We sound designed by Martin Perolta, thanks also to Greg

836
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 2: Thompson and Lenni Panerz, Show Burreo Fayguld, Vanessa Graham, Hailey Goddard,

837
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 2: Stephen Grise, Charlotte Carp, Tina Coggins and Harry Hughes, special

838
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 2: thanks to the Daily Telegraph editor Ben English and dear Rochelle.

839
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 2: Would not be possible without the help, and I'm wavering

840
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 2: support of Christy and Anne Childs, Mindy Wick's Damien Loon

841
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: and Rochelle's friends. This podcast series is hosted and investigated

842
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 2: by me Ashley Hanson